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Topic: Scotty York Knives
Message: Posted by: fccfp (Feb 2, 2005 03:16PM)
Any one have a Price est on what a good set of Scotty York Knives should go for?
WHere could I get them?

Thanks
Message: Posted by: joespc (Feb 2, 2005 04:44PM)
You might want to check Denny and Lee Magic Studio ( http://www.dennymagic.com ).

I don’t think that these knives are being produced anymore. I have seen them from time to time listed on eBay. The bidding was in the $100 to $200 range.
Message: Posted by: jerdunn (Feb 2, 2005 04:51PM)
And be sure you want this set. Although highly sought after, they aren't really the best for the effect, with discrepancies between the two sides and a tendency to flash the hidden color. Joe Mogar's knives (the Whit Haydn set) are much easier to work with and less prone to flash, IMO.

Cheers,
Jerry
Message: Posted by: BWind (Feb 2, 2005 08:45PM)
Jerdunn is correct about the Mogar Knives, however, the set that Whit uses on the "Intricate Web of Distraction" appears to be either a non Mogar or an early issue because you can sight the chrome shield on one side of the knife (like the York versions);

I personally still prefer the old Enardoe knives, except for the blades in the new models, they seem to rust almost immediately;
BWind
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Feb 3, 2005 01:25AM)
Jerry,
I don't understand... According to Scotty, the discrepancy in the sides is a [i]feature[/i], and the flashing issue is one of the things his knives [i]solved[/i].

If you're referring to the jigged surface of the black knife, it was done to facilitate finding the "right" side while still in your pocket. The rounded knives are "blade heavy" enough to cause them to roll slightly toward the spectator allowing you to place them on the table and still keep the bad side hidden.

Granted, I haven't seen the Mogar knives, but I'm fully satisfied with my York set.
Message: Posted by: Bill Wells (Feb 3, 2005 07:58AM)
With regard to the "Scotty York Knives". Unless Denny has a few old sets left, they aren't available anymore. The company were they were being made went out of business years ago. I think the real key to any knives is that they must look like the kind of pocket knives someone might carry (at least like they "used' to carry - since 9/11, you can't get on a plane with a pocket knife). Although, we sold the "York" set, my favorites have always been the Sanders knives.
Message: Posted by: Mitch Schneiter (Feb 3, 2005 11:15AM)
I too have a set of the York knives and I am very happy with them. I did notice a set was up for sale on E-bay recently. They ended up selling for $305.
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Feb 3, 2005 11:25AM)
I'd agree with Jerry - the Joe Mogar knives are the ones to go for.
Richard
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Feb 3, 2005 12:12PM)
The Mogar knives are great, and they are the ones that I use.

In my video, I am using a set of genuine Case knives made by JP Jackson in San Diego. I have a couple of sets of these. They are beautiful, but take a lot of care--they are not stainless and must be oiled and cleaned regularly.

This was one of the reasons School for Scoundrels had Joe Mogar create the "Whit Haydn Knives" set. They are stainless and easy to care for, and they have the rough and smooth sides that are so essential to my routine.

I use the Mogar knives now because they look great and are so much easier to care for.
Message: Posted by: Riley (Feb 3, 2005 12:29PM)
I've used various knives over the years. The Joe Mogar Knives are very nice to handle, a good size and the necessary sleights seem much easier to perform with these knives. Nice quality.
Message: Posted by: tabman (Feb 3, 2005 09:04PM)
Bill Wells will tell you that we were part of the Scotty York knife team and in fact sourced them and arranged for their initial manufacture. They were put together by Providence Knife Co. who is now out of business due to the influx of cheap third world knives. I still have several sets of them around the shop here. $300 on ebay huh!!! that's a lot of dough for a set of $20 knives!!! Wow!! My favorites are the old Merrill knives though.

-=tab
Message: Posted by: toonomads (Feb 4, 2005 09:34AM)
I have both the York Knives and the School for Scoundrels (Mogar) Knives. The School Knives are easier to use and look like something a guy would actually carry in his pocket. They are also small, light and basically rust-proof.
Message: Posted by: Bill Wells (Feb 4, 2005 11:39AM)
Wow indeed ! Tabby - I would scout out "...those several sets..." you got around the shop. If folks are getting that kind of money for them on EBay, you might be able to retire!

I am sure you remember how many *** knives and places were searched out in finally deciding on the ones from Providence (I had forgotten the name).

What's the photo in the background in your avatar?
Message: Posted by: tabman (Feb 4, 2005 05:12PM)
I know. That was a lot of fun back in those days, not that its not fun now, but a very cool time and you were a big part of it. I'll never forget our Quebec City Convention where I got to know Scotty. Thanks for introducing us, it was a once in a lifetime experience working with him.

Yes, I could retire on those knife sets ;) I love the color changing knife trick, have since I was a kid Ive found another maker here in the south who is a small manufacturer of nice pocket knives. Ive got one in my pocket right now. They're expensive though but you could actually cut your way out of a straight jacklet with one of these.

The photo behind my head is one of the favorite things I collected while I was on the IBM convention trail with you. It's a photo from Okito's collection of a magicians' convention in Chicago back in his day. It's got a lot of the heavy hitters of magicdom in it with him. Can you id these men???

[img]http://questx.com/tables/okitomax1.jpg[/img]

This is one of the "doctored" photos that I used on the scam on the Genii Forum a couple of years ago - part of the punch line so to speak, but the one behind my big ole head is the original, undoctored, complete with the original Okito seal in the corner. I got it and some of the checks that Okito cashed from Joe Berg Magic.

your old pal,

-=tabman
Message: Posted by: fccfp (Feb 4, 2005 05:59PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-03 13:12, whithaydn wrote:
The Mogar knives are great, and they are the ones that I use.

In my video, I am using a set of genuine Case knives made by JP Jackson in San Diego. I have a couple of sets of these. They are beautiful, but take a lot of care--they are not stainless and must be oiled and cleaned regularly.

This was one of the reasons School for Scoundrels had Joe Mogar create the "Whit Haydn Knives" set. They are stainless and easy to care for, and they have the rough and smooth sides that are so essential to my routine.
[/quote]

Whit,
I agree with you that the Mogar Knives are terrific. I just ordered a VC knife from Joe this afternoon. I have had the good fortune to meet Joe Mogar at a couple conventions where he was a vendor. He was generous with his time in helping me with his routine. (I already knew the moves.:) ) I have his Stag sensation knife set and carry it regularly.

I am suprised to here that you are having a hard time with the Case knives. I have a few of them and they are of decent quality. I did not know they sold any that were not stainless.

By the way, I also ordered your DVD from him as well.

[quote]
On 2005-02-03 22:04, tabman wrote:
Bill Wells will tell you that we were part of the Scotty York knife team and in fact sourced them and arranged for their initial manufacture. They were put together by Providence Knife Co. who is now out of business due to the influx of cheap third world knives. I still have several sets of them around the shop here. $300 on ebay huh!!! that's a lot of dough for a set of $20 knives!!! Wow!! My favorites are the old Merrill knives though.
-=tab
[/quote]

Bill,
I collect tactical knives and switch-blades. I have over 77 currently. I realized that it would be fun to also get various sets of CC knives as well.

For the most part the knives used for CC knives are poor quality, inexpensive knives. A decent pocket knife from Puma or Buck or spyderco, or ... ( you get the idea) would probably start in the $25 to $30 range. It would be made of a good quality steel and all the parts would fit together tightly with no gaps where the scales met the bolsters.

I am looking at acquiring some of the classic sets that may still be around at reasonable prices. The two Scotty York sets totaling eight knives went for $305 on e-bay. I was not prepared to go that high. It works out to about $38.18 per knife. Most of Joe Mogar's knives are between $20-30. A set of eight would be approx $160 to $240. That does not include his special "high end" Bone knives. I was prepared to go up to $250 ($31.25 per knife) for what I thought would be a nice collectable to own.

Is this wrong??

I had a set of Merrill’s when I was in High school. I still have one left. It is missing the lower Bolsters but the scales are intact and the blade is in good shape. I am looking for a set of Merrill’s as well. The set that went on E-bay for $75 may have been a great bargain. How do you price these things? They will only become less common, therefore less available. How desirable are they? How does one calculate the worth of a rarity?

Thanks for listening (reading)
Bruce


I had a nice set of Merrill's when I was in high school (we won't discuss what happend to them) I still have one of them, but, it is missing the bottom Bolster on both sides.

I
Message: Posted by: tabman (Feb 4, 2005 09:08PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-04 18:59, fccfp wrote: I had a nice set of Merrill's when I was in high school (we won't discuss what happend to them) I still have one of them, but, it is missing the bottom Bolster on both sides.
[/quote]

At one point I had one of the Merrill's that was green on one side and was split white/green on the other side for the partial color change move. It was a sweet variation. One of the penalties of getting older, not being able to remember as much and for the life of me I cant remember what happened to it as I still have the others.

The thing I like the best about the Merrills is their size and shape. You can do a lot of the cigarette moves with them as they're about the size of a king sized cigarette. At one point in the past Keith Clark popularized cigarette magic. Everybody smoked (I don't anymore) but a lot of the sleight of hand from the cigs can be moved to the Merrill knives.

-=tab
Message: Posted by: fccfp (Feb 5, 2005 07:28AM)
Tabman,
Have you tried Cig moves w/Mogars? They seem to be about the same size. I was never a smoker, but learned the moves because evry where I went in those days was smoking. Up until sometime in the 70's I think you could count on several people having a lit cig at a show. Now? fuhgedaboutit.

Any way, I have modified an old lit cig p**l to hold a knife. Works well and drives even those in the know crazy.
Message: Posted by: cataquet (Feb 5, 2005 09:33AM)
Tabman, I too adore the Merrill knives. My 3 knife set was given to me by Peter Kane, and when I started to develop a routine that needed additional knives, I was lucky enough to find knives that were the perfect size and shape (identical to the Merrill knives). However, the inlays on these knifes were terrible (clear plastic with colored backing) so I had to remove these inlays and replaced them with solid acrylic pieces. As you know, if you find a knife that manipulates well, you can (with very little effort) turn them into CC knives. So, it's worth looking around in shops... I seem to remember that Scotty York (?) at one time used to lecture on a CC swiss army knife. These don't manipulate well, but they are a "common" object.
Message: Posted by: Bill Wells (Feb 5, 2005 03:29PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-04 18:12, tabman wrote:

The photo behind my head is one of the favorite things I collected while I was on the IBM convention trail with you. It's a photo from Okito's collection of a magicians' convention in Chicago back in his day. It's got a lot of the heavy hitters of magicdom in it with him. Can you id these men???

[/quote]

I can ID some of them - From left to right - Bert Allerton, Jean Hugard, John Braun, don't know this guy, Okito, Jack Qwynne (in back), I know this next fellow but can't think of his name at the moment, and Harlan Tarbell. The others I don't know.
Message: Posted by: Bill Wells (Feb 5, 2005 03:48PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-04 18:59, fccfp wrote:
Bill,
I collect tactical knives and switch-blades. I have over 77 currently. I realized that it would be fun to also get various sets of CC knives as well.

For the most part the knives used for CC knives are poor quality, inexpensive knives. A decent pocket knife from Puma or Buck or spyderco, or ... ( you get the idea) would probably start in the $25 to $30 range. It would be made of a good quality steel and all the parts would fit together tightly with no gaps where the scales met the bolsters.

I am looking at acquiring some of the classic sets that may still be around at reasonable prices. The two Scotty York sets totaling eight knives went for $305 on e-bay. I was not prepared to go that high. It works out to about $38.18 per knife. Most of Joe Mogar's knives are between $20-30. A set of eight would be approx $160 to $240. That does not include his special "high end" Bone knives. I was prepared to go up to $250 ($31.25 per knife) for what I thought would be a nice collectable to own.

Is this wrong??

I had a set of Merrill’s when I was in High school. I still have one left. It is missing the lower Bolsters but the scales are intact and the blade is in good shape. I am looking for a set of Merrill’s as well. The set that went on E-bay for $75 may have been a great bargain. How do you price these things? They will only become less common, therefore less available. How desirable are they? How does one calculate the worth of a rarity?

[/quote]

Bruce -

I am surprised that anyone would pay that much money for a set of color changing knieves. However, the price anyone pays for something like that is dependend on how much they have to spend and how much they want something. If they are being purchased to be part of a collection, that is one thing. If someone wants a set of good color changing knives, I would go knife hunting and find myself a knife that I liked handling and hope that the style came in several handle styles. I would then buy a half dozen of them and make my own color changing knives. You could certainly have a set of high quality "real" knives for less than the CC sets selling on EBay.

You are correct that many of the CC knife sets look like and are cheap knives. I probably have most of them, Merrill, Mogar, York, and a bunch of others including some custom ones such as a set made of Swiss Army knives. One of the reasons I like the Sanders knives is that they don't look cheap.

Frankly, I would avoid Ebay and contact some of the used magic folks and tell them to let you know if they find any CC knife sets in magic estates they buy.

If you are interested in CC knives (and other things magic) Be sure to check Doug Atkinson's fabulous website http://magicref.tripod.com/magref/artknife.htm There is also an excellent CC knife bibliography there as well.

Bill
Message: Posted by: Michael Bilkis (Feb 5, 2005 05:10PM)
I recently aquired the moar bone three knife set. I love them. Easy to handle. I love the jigged knife for ID in my pocket. I also have a set of scotty york knives and have never liked them. BTW, My knife routine is a variation of Whit's Intricate Web of Distraction. I love Whit's analysis and thoughts behind each move.

Michael.
Message: Posted by: tabman (Feb 6, 2005 09:36AM)
I've never even handled a set of the Mogars, fccfp, but I did look at the pics on Sir Jim's website and they do look sort of like the Merrills. Your idea of the cig p**l is a good one. I never thought of that one. I used to keep a homemade utility pull in the sleeve of a levi jacket back in the cowboy days. It was made of a large alligator clip, some fishing line, a safety pin, elastic and tape. One day I used it with a dollar bill and waited for the surprise reaction but none came. Then I saw to my chagrin that the clip had hung on the big metal button on the jean jacket cuff!!! That's when you learn to always keep them unbuttoned.

What you're saying is very true, cataquet. I've got a number of knives around here that I "modified" some with better results than others. When we were doing the SY knives for Bill and Scotty, I collected up sample knives from all over the place and operated on them. One set I particularly like. They're pocket knives but about five inches long and really look like a knife. That's the main objection I have with some of the fancy looking knives - they don't really look like a real knife.

One of the neat things about the old Ernardo knives is the locking feature on the blade. It made an additional little trick with the knife. It made a great opener to get into the routine. I've got one of their fat little sets sitting right here.

Bill, for some more info on the old photo check out the thread on the Genii Forum from a couple of years ago:

[url]http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000217[/url]

-=tab
Message: Posted by: TGENTLE (Feb 6, 2005 10:55AM)
I still have my original two sets of Merrills, and still use them. Must be 30 years old. I even have the set of mini knives for the surprise ending. Were these made by Merrill? I forget.

They always looked inexpensive, but I always thought it lent to their innonence. Like them or not, their instructions were an expert treatise on the subject. Should be required reading for anyone doing the paddle move.

tg
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 6, 2005 01:38PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-06 10:36, tabman wrote:
"...One of the neat things about the old Ernardo knives is the locking feature on the blade...."
[/quote]

And it's the set that I use to this day, not only because I find them incredibly easy to handle, but because of the locking feature...you wouldn't believe the mileage I get out of that.

[quote]
On 2005-02-06 11:55, TGENTLE wrote:
"...I even have the set of mini knives for the surprise ending. Were these made by Merrill? I forget...."
[/quote]

They were Jose de la Torre's [i]Smash Climax[/i] knives, not to be confused with the junky (IMO) product now being sold under the same name.
Message: Posted by: TGENTLE (Feb 6, 2005 07:54PM)
Larry,

That's right! I had completely forgotten. Wow, that brings back memories...

Thanks,

tg
Message: Posted by: tabman (Feb 6, 2005 10:03PM)
This is a fun topic. I agree about Merrills instructions. Great stuff. I have mine stuffed in a folder some place. They did look like a mineature version of what we used to call a [i]watermelon knife[/i] down in Texas in the early 70s.

-=tab
Message: Posted by: TGENTLE (Feb 7, 2005 10:39AM)
Tabman,

Never heard of a watermelon knife, although I am quite familiar with a Texas toothpick!
Tom
Message: Posted by: Bill Wells (Feb 7, 2005 12:29PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-06 10:36, tabman wrote:
One of the neat things about the old Ernardo knives is the locking feature on the blade. It made an additional little trick with the knife. It made a great opener to get into the routine. I've got one of their fat little sets sitting right here.

Bill, for some more info on the old photo check out the thread on the Genii Forum from a couple of years ago:

[url]http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000217[/url]

-=tab

[/quote]

I bought a set of Enardoe (E.O.Drane spelled backwards)knives from Harry Baker in Washington, DC when I was a kid visiting Washington. I still have them.

Thanks for the link on the photo. Arthur Buckley is the one I knew but couldn't remember. I would have never recognized Sid Lorraine. I should have know Walter Gibson. Wonder who the man on the far right is...I don't think he looks like Edgar Bergen...who someone suggested it might be. Wonder what the occasion of the photo was?

Bill
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Feb 7, 2005 12:41PM)
I can't recognize Edgar Bergen, but it also depends on when the photo was taken..
Those I think I recognize are Okito, Harlan Tarbel, Bert Allerton, Walter Gibson, Sid Lorraine -a younger one then I recall, the guy behind with the beard I recall, but can't remember his name currently, but he was a stageworker and illusionist -ahh, Jack Gwynne it was-, well know one, so I'm still missing 3-4 ppl :(
Message: Posted by: tabman (Feb 7, 2005 09:07PM)
Dang Bill, Harry Baker's shop in DC is where I got my Ernardo Knives too!!! My grandmother loved magic and used to drag me around to meet magicians. Baker and Dolly!!! Holey Smokers!!!

Tom, I'm pretty sure that a watermelon knife and a Texas toothpick are one in the same!!!

-=tabman
Message: Posted by: fccfp (Feb 8, 2005 11:05AM)
Update on Value vs. Price:

If your primary interest in which set of knives to get is price, as opposed to rarity, might I recommend the "Ultra Super Color Changing Knife Set" for sale on Denny's website. [url]http://www.dennymagic.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?client=24008007&action=detail&item=006266 [/url]

I just received the set in the mail yesterday. 7 "Enardo" style knives w/locking blade feature plus 12 mini-knives for the smash climax. The whole thing is $35! that works out to $5 per knife, not including the "minis". (yes, I know, you can get a set of 2 “Enardoe” style knives on e-bay for less than that. But how are you going to round out the set when you expand from a two knife routine?)

No one will ever confuse these knives with a Benchmade, Spyderco or a Buck knife. They are, however, more than adequate for the effect and will cut the occasional piece of string or open a package. The "mini-knives" are very cheaply made. I don't think that is terribly important as the effect of seeing all those knives at the end will stun 'em anyway.

The Minis come on little key rings which I will probably remove. The set does not include a instructions or a routine so you have to come up with your own routine and know how to “work” the knives. It does include a couple of routines for the smash climax that are helpful.

All in all, I believe it is a tremendous value and would recommend them to anyone looking to build a bigger routine or presentation for the knives. Personally, I doubt I would use all seven in any one routine. They are there, however, if Ineed them or just want to vary the routine.

Don’t cut yourself,
Bruce
P.S. The parts of the knife that are sometimes reffered to as covers or shells are more correctly called scales. Now, if some one could tell me how to pop 'em off I would probably make some of my own. :)
Message: Posted by: TGENTLE (Feb 8, 2005 05:04PM)
Wow,

That's a great deal. Hat's of to Denny. He could have squeeszed out another 5 or more bucks without a blink of the customer eye.

tg
Message: Posted by: Bill Wells (Feb 9, 2005 09:28PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-07 22:07, tabman wrote:
Dang Bill, Harry Baker's shop in DC is where I got my Ernardo Knives too!!! My grandmother loved magic and used to drag me around to meet magicians. Baker and Dolly!!! Holey Smokers!!!
-=tabman

[/quote]

Tabby -

Another in our ever growing series of coincidences in the past.

Harry must have demoed the knives to every kid that came in the shop. I certainly would not have had the good sense to buy them on my own at that young age.
That was the only time I was ever in Harry Baker's shop. It was gone long before I moved to the Washington, D.C. area.

Bill
Message: Posted by: tabman (Feb 9, 2005 10:15PM)
Bill, I loved Baker's Magic Shop. Baker sort of looked like Jack Gwynne, at least he had a pencil thin mustache!!! He would always walk us to our car. A real gentleman.

-=tab
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 11, 2005 12:25AM)
Lanny Kibbey in Houston makes some really nice knives out of the Imperial knives from Wal-Mart. They have bone scales and mother of pearl scales. You can very easily tell them apart in your pocket, because the bone surfaces are textured. Although the knives are curved instead of straight, that isn't a problem at all. I have been working with them for several years now, and have never gotten burned on that part of it.
Message: Posted by: Robert M (Feb 11, 2005 12:17PM)
I own both the Mogar and Merrill knives, and they seem nearly identical to me. Joe Mogar made up a special set for a trick in Genii Magazine (Orsen Wells issue) back a couple years called "Technicolor Knives" that I contributed. I think you can still buy the set from Joe for about $80.

I have a complete set of Scotty York knives that I would consider selling in mint condition. They're beautiful, but I prefer to use Merril / Mogar knives.

Robert McDaniel
Message: Posted by: Stevethomas (Feb 11, 2005 03:19PM)
I wish J.P. Jackson were still able to make his CC knives! Beautiful work. I'm currently using Mogar's stag handle set, only because I'm afraid to take my Sanders knives out...Otherwise, it would be Sanders Color Changing Knives all the way! I'm keeping my last set of Sanders knives. Sold a mint (with original boxes and instructions) to Ken Klosterman for his Salon. Wish I hadn't sold 'em. I've owned a 7-knife set of Scotty York knives, too. Didn't like 'em at all. The Merrill set I had didn't resemble any of Joe Mogar's knives in any way.

Steve Thomas
Message: Posted by: joseph (Mar 26, 2005 06:21AM)
If you are interested, I just noticed a set of York knives on Ebay right now, but you have to act fast....little time left and it looks like a good deal so far, based on the above information...
Message: Posted by: Ron Reid (Mar 26, 2005 06:49AM)
Hello:

I bought a set of the Scotty York knives from Denny and Lee a few years ago, but sold them after using them a few times. They are easy to handle, but more than once I had a spectator say that the little chrome emblem on one side was some type of push-button that made the knife change color.

I use the Whit Hayden (Mogar) and am pretty happy with them. I still don't like the little bit of flashing that occurs on the edge, but it's not a huge deal; the Enardoes take care of that, but I've never been able to consistently handle them well. If my hands are too dry, I can forget about being able to do the paddle move with the Erardoes.

I noticed several people have mentioned knives being "jigged." Can someone tell me what that means?

Ron
Message: Posted by: Julie (Mar 26, 2005 03:14PM)
Ron

That business of "pushing the button" to change the color might be a good thing--there's the germ of a novel routine here!