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Topic: Real hypnotism
Message: Posted by: Muddy (Feb 6, 2005 07:09AM)
Sometimes I get the feeling that some here believe that the "flap your wings" and "bark like a dog" type of "hypnotism" is the "real thing". Im just curious how many here susbscribe to that belief ...

(hmm ... am I about to be flamed? :) )
Message: Posted by: holmes (Feb 6, 2005 07:32AM)
I don't believe it is real either
Message: Posted by: J ack Galloway (Feb 6, 2005 10:20AM)
But it can become real as a result of compliance and rationalization constructs of the spectators.

Cheers

Jack
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Feb 6, 2005 01:13PM)
It depends on your definition of "hypnotism" and "real". Muddy, what do you think is real hypnotism?

Hypnotising someone to bark like a dog, etc. is real in the sense that many people can do it. But what exactly is being done by the hypnotist? Is it simply the power of suggestion?

I would be interested in hearing opinions of Café members on what "real hypnotism" is, and what "fake hypnotism" is.
Message: Posted by: deverett (Feb 6, 2005 03:19PM)
You'll have to define "real thing" to give this discussion legs.

Dave Everett
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 6, 2005 04:24PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-06 08:09, Muddy wrote:
Sometimes I get the feeling that some here believe that the "flap your wings" and "bark like a dog" type of "hypnotism" is the "real thing". Im just curious how many here susbscribe to that belief ...
[/quote]

Muddy, your question seems to intimate some form of knowledge on your part. As though you actually know something. Do you? Personally I feel that you probably don't. I don't mean to be rude by the way, let me explain why I say that...

For what it's worth, within the medical profession (mainly psychology) there has long been an argument called 'state versus non state'. In other words whether or not hypnosis is in fact an actual state... or not. And the experts are still arguing the case.
What all of them 'seem' to agree with is the fact that there is no real such thing as an actual 'hypnotist' per say. But rather the patient hypnotises themselves with the aid of a person "we will call a hypnotist".
However, I do believe that to truly hold an opinion on a certain subject it's important to have practised and experienced it. The challenge unfortunately arises with persons who have a very limited knowledge, based on hearsay from others, kinda' like 'Chinese Whispers'? Which of course devalues the whole debate.

Toodlepip.
Bobser.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Feb 6, 2005 04:32PM)
One of the observations about hypnosis is that it displays the characteristics of states which can change from one to the other in a split second and a conditioned reflex which needs a series of steps to induce. For example what is normally thought of as a deep hypnotic trance needs a series of steps to induce however can be totally terminated with just one word.

For me there seems to be a lot of semantic games going on to either prove or disprove hypnosis exists. I see that hypnosis is just advanced communication with the unconscious part of the mind. that's all I need to be able to utilize and harness this ability..

Shrink
Message: Posted by: mugician51 (Feb 6, 2005 04:37PM)
I believe in subtle influence, but I don't think that you can wave a pendulum in front of someone's face, tell them to humiliate themselves and have them actually do what you say. In my experience, if you tell someone to do something they don't want to, they won't do it.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 6, 2005 04:43PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-06 17:37, mugician51 wrote:
I believe in subtle influence, but I don't think that you can wave a pendulum in front of someone's face, tell them to humiliate themselves and have them actually do what you say. In my experience, if you tell someone to do something they don't want to, they won't do it.
[/quote]

That's right mugician51. However, if you couch your words into something else, and you are an experienced hynotist of course, then there is a good chance that you will in fact be succesful.

Just a quickie on what Shrink said. I have quite a few friends in hynotherapy who will all happily agree that (in therapy) they will be just as succesful with the client in a light trance as someone who might spend 20 mins bringing them deeper. In other words they are saying that the level is NOT neccesarily important as long as positive suggestion id being given. It simply... works.
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Feb 6, 2005 04:59PM)
I would have to say that if you are still doing bark like a dog or cluck like a chicken routines your show won't be around for long. A modern successful show isn't into humiliating and making your volunteers look stupid. If that's all you are after you may do one show but they won't book you back and if they do no one is going to volunteer for your show.

Martin :pirate:
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 6, 2005 05:11PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-06 17:59, MagicalPirate wrote:
I would have to say that if you are still doing bark like a dog or cluck like a chicken routines your show won't be around for long. A modern successful show isn't into humiliating and making your volunteers look stupid. If that's all you are after you may do one show but they won't book you back and if they do no one is going to volunteer for your show.

Martin :pirate:
[/quote]

Magicalpirate, I am of the same mind as you. However, I think that you and I are both wrong. I say that because I watched a whole group of folks barking and quacking a couple weeks ago, before simulating copulation and much worse, as as the hypnotist truly did the full humiliation thing. The audience? Well I have to say they absolutely loved it!
I'm not making a judgement here. Simply reporting what I witnessed.

This is your local reporter, Bobser, for 'South Today' saying; "Be careful out there".
Message: Posted by: Muddy (Feb 6, 2005 06:27PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-06 17:24, bobser wrote:


Muddy, your question seems to intimate some form of knowledge on your part. As though you actually know something. Do you? Personally I feel that you probably don't. I don't mean to be rude by the way, let me explain why I say that...

For what it's worth, within the medical profession (mainly psychology) there has long been an argument called 'state versus non state'. In other words whether or not hypnosis is in fact an actual state... or not. And the experts are still arguing the case.
What all of them 'seem' to agree with is the fact that there is no real such thing as an actual 'hypnotist' per say. But rather the patient hypnotises themselves with the aid of a person "we will call a hypnotist".
However, I do believe that to truly hold an opinion on a certain subject it's important to have practised and experienced it. The challenge unfortunately arises with persons who have a very limited knowledge, based on hearsay from others, kinda' like 'Chinese Whispers'? Which of course devalues the whole debate.

Toodlepip.
Bobser.
[/quote]

You are right .. I know nothing ... but you are not being rude at all ... my observations are based on a night club act I saw years ago and a bit of research that suggested to me that such displays are pure showmanship. I could absolutely be wrong about this ... and I am very interested in hearing what professionals in the industry consider to be "real hypnotism" ... let me define that loosely as someone "not just playing along for whatever reason" ...


Just a curious question on my part ... no offense intended and I hope none taken ...

of course, if something is bringing in money and and entertaining the audience, then the whole argument (if there is an argument) is entirely academic ... and moot
Message: Posted by: kcalB (Feb 6, 2005 09:49PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-06 17:37, mugician51 wrote:
I believe in subtle influence, but I don't think that you can wave a pendulum in front of someone's face, tell them to humiliate themselves and have them actually do what you say. In my experience, if you tell someone to do something they don't want to, they won't do it.
[/quote]

That bit about waving the pendulum in front of a subjects face is pure hollywood and not done by any true hypnotist,.. save for those that would perpetuate the myth by doing promo poses with a swinging watch.

If you want more info do a search on Chevreul's Pendulum and you will find out that it is actually the subject and not the hypnotist that swings the pendulum.
Message: Posted by: Partizan (Feb 7, 2005 12:22PM)
A fake would say "look into my eyes, look into my eyes. Don't look around my eyes. Look into my eyes, [snap] Only order from the set menu!"

[Pun for UK members]
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Feb 7, 2005 04:55PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-06 18:11, bobser wrote:

Magicalpirate, I am of the same mind as you. However, I think that you and I are both wrong. I say that because I watched a whole group of folks barking and quacking a couple weeks ago, before simulating copulation and much worse, as as the hypnotist truly did the full humiliation thing. The audience? Well I have to say they absolutely loved it!
I'm not making a judgement here. Simply reporting what I witnessed.

This is your local reporter, Bobser, for 'South Today' saying; "Be careful out there".
[/quote]

Hi Bobser:

It sounds like a nighclub or bar act. When I made that comment my reference was for the real work where the money is. Corporate, Schools, Fairs and fundraisers. If you do that humiliation stuff there you will find yourself only able to find work in the bars and to me that would be a real drag. Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with working bars, its just not where I want my career to lead me.

Once you start doing that R and X rated material and the word gets around, those markets I mentioned above won't be touching you with a ten foot pole. Its a positioning thing.

Martin :pirate:
Message: Posted by: nic (Feb 8, 2005 05:18AM)
There is a arguement put forward about stage hypnotism in pubs and clubs when people are made to perform weird and strange acts that hypnosis doe not occur. This I belie=ieve to be the case in some situations and some people are willing to perform have there moment as the star and then say they remember nothing.

The more (I would say) professional act uses hypnosis and the depth of the trance is irrellevent as long as the suggestion is acted upon. I would ask is the subject of how deep the state is something that we need to worry about rather that we should look at producing a state that is necessary to produce your act.

I know of Hypnotists that are successfull but are not bothered if they can or do hypnotise a person. I don't think I could work with that I would feel as much of a fraud as the fraudulent psychic. I would rather have a professional act
Message: Posted by: RickSilmser (Feb 8, 2005 05:26AM)
The state of "hypnosis" as we know it...does not exist. All it is...an altered state of concentration that allows you to afix your mind onto a certain given subject without interuption.

"Hypno", as you may know, is a Greek word meaning "sleep"...at no time are any of these people sleeping.

~Rick~
Message: Posted by: nic (Feb 8, 2005 05:32AM)
I agree completley with you Rick. There is no sleep involved and the label HYPNOSIS is one that was given when there was even less understanding than there is now and it has stuck as a name.

Hypnosis is and altered state of concentration and relaxation. So is it that hypnosis does exist, but there is a lot of misunderstanding about what it is?
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Feb 8, 2005 01:56PM)
Partizan..

Yeah but, No but, Yeah but..no but.


Come on Partizan own up, " are you the only one in the village?"


Howard
Message: Posted by: Ken Dyne (Feb 8, 2005 02:17PM)
But..i'm a lady, I do lady's things like needle point...
Message: Posted by: nalu_magic (Feb 8, 2005 04:10PM)
I would have to agree with Shrink. Seems like you guys are arguing about defnitions and semantics. No matter what you want to call it, the ability to communicate with others' subconcious mind is real. With proper training, you can definitely tell when someone is "under" and when they are faking it.
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Feb 8, 2005 05:05PM)
Don't like it....

Howard
Message: Posted by: procyonrising (Feb 8, 2005 05:08PM)
If only people read through past threads...

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=58000&forum=15
Message: Posted by: Muddy (Feb 8, 2005 05:22PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-08 18:08, procyonrising wrote:
If only people read through past threads...

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=58000&forum=15
[/quote]

Nice link! Thanks!
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Feb 9, 2005 02:00AM)
Um folks, it seems that hypnosis has recently been defined as a discreet brainwave state. Health magazine reported it in a recent issue (within the last several months) and the research has been duplicated at several universities and hospitals, so, it would seem that Randi (who has a bet up that hypnosis does not exist) has to pay someone.

Just a note from a very busy stage hypnotist...

;) ;) ;)

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 9, 2005 12:38PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-08 06:26, RickSilmser wrote:
The state of "hypnosis" as we know it...does not exist. All it is...an altered state...
[quote]

In that case then Rick, that would make it an actual 'state', yeah?

9quote[
"Hypno", as you may know, is a Greek word meaning "sleep"...at no time are any of these people sleeping.
[/quote]

It actually comes from; The Greek God of Sleep & Master of Dreams: 'Hypnos'.
It's founder was one of my ancestors, James Braid, from 'The Kingdom of Fife' in Scotland. By the time he realised his mistake (1847) it was too late. The whole of the European hypno-medical world had adopted the word.
For what it's worth he tried to change it to 'Monoideism', but no one took any notice; 'Hypnosis' had stuck.

Yors aye,
From 'The Enlightener';
Bobser.
Message: Posted by: Hypno (Feb 10, 2005 10:37AM)
Hi Guys
If you are trying to make someone do somthing they don't want to do, you are kind of missing the point. Hypnosis is about making someone want to do what you want them to do, rather than making them do something against their will.

Hypno
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Feb 10, 2005 11:50AM)
Partizan. Kennedy.

Don't you just love it when you can make a reference to something and the guys "over the pond" have no idea what you are on about. No one has even picked up on it and bothered to ask !


"excuse me do you have a book on Medieval Hypnotism, suitable for 7 to 10
year olds?"

LoL
Howard
Message: Posted by: shrink (Feb 10, 2005 01:17PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-07 17:55, MagicalPirate wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-02-06 18:11, bobser wrote:

Magicalpirate, I am of the same mind as you. However, I think that you and I are both wrong. I say that because I watched a whole group of folks barking and quacking a couple weeks ago, before simulating copulation and much worse, as as the hypnotist truly did the full humiliation thing. The audience? Well I have to say they absolutely loved it!
I'm not making a judgement here. Simply reporting what I witnessed.

This is your local reporter, Bobser, for 'South Today' saying; "Be careful out there".
[/quote]

Hi Bobser:

It sounds like a nighclub or bar act. When I made that comment my reference was for the real work where the money is. Corporate, Schools, Fairs and fundraisers. If you do that humiliation stuff there you will find yourself only able to find work in the bars and to me that would be a real drag. Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with working bars, its just not where I want my career to lead me.

Once you start doing that R and X rated material and the word gets around, those markets I mentioned above won't be touching you with a ten foot pole. Its a positioning thing.

Martin :pirate:
[/quote]

There was never a corporate market or college market for hypnosis over here in the UK. There was a University circuit but it wasn't huge either. I did an over the top Hypnosis show at midnight every week in a local theatre on and off for years. I was making 10 times more than other performers in my area. Plus I was being approached by all the Universities so I guess it depends on where you are.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 10, 2005 01:39PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-10 11:37, Hypno wrote:
Hi Guys
If you are trying to make someone do somthing they don't want to do, you are kind of missing the point. Hypnosis is about making someone want to do what you want them to do, rather than making them do something against their will.

Hypno
[/quote]

.... and Hypnotherapy is about 'helping' someone do what 'they' want to do.
Ok guys. I think we now have everything covered.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Feb 16, 2005 05:17PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-08 17:10, nalu_magic wrote:
I would have to agree with Shrink. Seems like you guys are arguing about defnitions and semantics. No matter what you want to call it, the ability to communicate with others' subconcious mind is real. With proper training, you can definitely tell when someone is "under" and when they are faking it.


[/quote]
How can you tell? What exactly do you look for to determine whether someone is really under or faking it?
Message: Posted by: procyonrising (Feb 16, 2005 06:54PM)
If I may repeat myself...

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=58000&forum=15
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Feb 16, 2005 09:13PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-16 19:54, procyonrising wrote:
If I may repeat myself...

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=58000&forum=15
[/quote]

That thread is about hypnotherapy. Are hypnotism and hypnotherapy synonymous?
Message: Posted by: procyonrising (Feb 16, 2005 11:01PM)
Unfortunately, for most people, yes. I did post a brief summary of why hypnosis is different from consciousness in that thread, which is very relevant to your previous post.

The faking/real paradigm has been used much in research. There are certain qualities that hypnotized people exhibit that are not seen in those who are faking (or those who are not hypnotized). A really good example is the Kenneth Bianci (sp?) court case years ago. After three very experienced and highly qualified hypnotists certified Bianci insane, Orne came in and showed that Bianci was actually faking hypnosis.

The clues he used were practically invisible to the untrained eye (all sessions were videotaped), but when Orne pointed them out, they were clear as day.

Granted, Orne pioneered much of the research looking at differences between people who are hypnotized and people who are faking hypnosis. At the time, he was the only person who really knew the difference.

Lastly, a less practical--but compelling--way to see if someone is truly hypnotized is to use fMRI (actually, if you used the new Magic Angle technology, it would be extremely convincing) and/or PET scans to show areas of activation in the brain not normally seen in consciousness. It's very compelling proof, since you can't activate those parts any other way.

(As a side note, my own research has been exploring the relationship between Amygdala size and volatility in suggestibilty; I believe a shrinkage of the Amygdala results in greater suggestibilty and a propensity to "believe weird things." I'm writing a grant for the study as you read this...)
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Feb 17, 2005 12:01AM)
What do you all think of Wikipedia's entry on hypnois?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis
Message: Posted by: procyonrising (Feb 17, 2005 12:48AM)
Jimtron, it's excellent. There are a few things I'd qualify, since they're not totally correct, but otherwise, it's outstanding.

1. "This suggestibility has led some psychologists to believe that hypnosis does not actually correspond to any underlying mechanism of the human mind, but is merely a social construct so well-known that strong social expectations are played out by the person who believes that they are in a state of hypnosis, with people behaving in a way that they think a hypnotized person would behave, placing the phenomenon in a purely social aspect."

There are a lot of psychologists that believe hypnosis is a form of social influence--and they're right; however, that's also the problem: hypnosis is (simultaneously) also more than simply social influence. For instance, you can erradicate warts with hypnosis; you cannot replicate that with peer pressure (and peer pressure is regarded as a stronger social influencer than hypnosis).

2. "Furthermore, as with most forms of therapy, there is always the risk of the Hawthorne Effect, the desire for a client to please the therapist or justify the expense of therapy, or hopeful thinking."

The Hawthorne Effect is a term used almost exclusively in I/O psych. Most research psychologists would call this a demand effect. Moreover, all therapies are successful 2/3rds of the time--irrespective of whether the technique used actually works (yes, this is an empirically-based claim). Thus, I think this statement is a bit misleading.

3. "However, one controlled scientific experiment postulates that hypnosis may change conscious experience in a way not possible when people are not 'hypnotized', at least in "highly hypnotizable" people. In this experiment, color perception was changed by hypnosis in "highly hypnotizable" people as determined by positron emission tomography (PET) scans (Kosslyn et al., 2000). Nonetheless, this research does not compare the effects of hypnosis on less hypnotizable people and could therefore show little causal effect due to the lack of a control group."

This was a very beautiful study. From a pure research standpoint, the writer makes a good point. A psychologist, however, would probably disagree with the objection made here. In the study, Kosslyn used people who weren't hypnotized as well as people who were asked to use imagery. In both cases, color perception was not changed. The only time a dual-hemisphere response was elicited in the brain was in the hypnosis condition. Kosslyn was very thorough here. This is good, replicable research.

Yes, he could've used a larger number of subjects. Yes, he could've analyzed suggestibility as a co-variate. But neither were the point of the study. All Kosslyn wanted to do was show that it was possible to consciously alter unconscious cognitive processes--and he did that. If anything, the study was published in a very well-respected peer-reviewed journal; something impossible to do if the writer's objection was something significant.
Message: Posted by: nalu_magic (Feb 17, 2005 03:18AM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-16 18:17, jimtron wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-02-08 17:10, nalu_magic wrote:
I would have to agree with Shrink. Seems like you guys are arguing about defnitions and semantics. No matter what you want to call it, the ability to communicate with others' subconcious mind is real. With proper training, you can definitely tell when someone is "under" and when they are faking it.


[/quote]
How can you tell? What exactly do you look for to determine whether someone is really under or faking it?
[/quote]

Hi Jimtron,

Here are ways to identify a trance state:

1. Noticeable muscle relaxation

2. Easy, rhythmic breathing

3. Bloodshot eyes

4. Increase in Body Temperature

5. Eyes rolling to the back of head

6. Irregular blinking


These are just a few of the signs to look for when someone is in trance state. Hope this helps.
Message: Posted by: procyonrising (Feb 17, 2005 09:40AM)
Not in total disagreement, since you're right, but all of these indentifiers you've mentioned can be faked.
Message: Posted by: nalu_magic (Feb 17, 2005 12:26PM)
Hi procyonrising,

I agree all of these identifiers can be faked. That being said, having performed many stage hypnosis shows I have learned how to accurately identify those that are faking and those that are truly deep in trance for that is my job. The whole show is dependant upon participants in trance. Many times a person may exhibit a multitude of those tell tale signs to make trance recognition easier to identify. It is a blast because more times than not even the audience can tell who is in trance and who is faking.
Message: Posted by: muzicman (Feb 17, 2005 12:46PM)
It amazes me how many intelligent human beings believe that hypnosis is a total loss of conscience of their actions and thoughts. They think of the cartoons they saw as a child with the spinning eyes and a deep trance that they would never consciously remember. I have seen entertaining Hypnotist shows. Even after the hypnotist explains that the subjects will have full knowledge of their surroundings and actions, there are many in the audience that still reverts to thinking of what they recall from cartoons.

My wife is a professional CPA, and a very intelligent person. She went up on stage at a state fair and was hypnotised. She was sent off the stage early as she just sat there waiting for the "lights to go out". It took me a long time to explain to her that each person that remained on stage and entertained the audience, was fully aware of where they were, what they were doing. After talking to MANY who saw the series of shows at the fair, I discovered she was not alone in her thinking. Hypnotism is real, but TV and cartoons have given false impressions of what it truly is. When I say that it is real, I mean that people can be directed to "Think" and "Act" a certain way based on the power of suggestion...but only if they are open to those suggestions. At any time, a person under the relaxed state of "Hypnotism" can stand up and say "I'm done"