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Topic: Hypnotists You MUST Read This FYI
Message: Posted by: kcalB (Mar 6, 2005 01:58PM)
So much for telling anyone that they will not do anything against their will or morals and so on and so forth.

I'm not very concerned about this from a stage point of view BUT with regards to my clinical practice I am concerned,.... the precedent case has now been set and the bar has been lowered.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050228210909990002

This post really will be lost here,..and so this is another reason why I petitioned without any luck for a seperate category for hypnosis,..therefore if you are a hypnotist please visit the category "I want to see the manager" and chime in on my posting.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Mar 6, 2005 02:13PM)
Sebastian, many of the hynotherapy bodies posted this clip on their members boards all last week all around Britain.
Scary stuff!
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Mar 6, 2005 03:02PM)
I think it was Bandler who first pointed out the subliminal message the very title gives people, hypnotherapist i.e hypno the rapist.

It is unfortunate that in all walks of life there are bad people and that is life. As I understand it, there are (at least in the UK) to be stricter guidelines around professional alternative therapists being members of governing bodies.

Although that has (and always was) in the pipeline I wonder how many charlatans it truly will stop. After all, anyone can set up a governing body....
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Mar 6, 2005 03:14PM)
To those of you who are well versed in hypnosis, do you think that it's possible that hynotists can coerce someone to do something against their will? I've seen other posts here that suggest that it's impossible to do such a thing.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Mar 6, 2005 04:15PM)
Bandler coined the term: "psycho the rapist". Meaning Psychotherapists. It didn't have a sexual connotation but refered to the techiniques and methods used by many traditional psychotherapists. These techniques tend to be intrusive and keep the problem in place if not make it worse.


There has been cases before of hypnotherapists or psychotherapists being caught sexually assualting clients. There was even one in Edinburgh a quite few years back. Although it wasn't publicised to a high degree. Im not sure if it went to court I can't remember.

I believe it is possible for some people to accept suggestions that would normally be against what they would do. They are not doing anything against their will because their will has been subdued.

Shrink

Many stage hypnotists know this but will continue along the lines of "I can't make anyone do anything against their will" because other wise they would get no volunteers. But in many cases this just isn't true.

Shrink
Message: Posted by: RickSilmser (Mar 6, 2005 04:26PM)
Mr.Black...

I dated a gal whom had that happen to her, but the doctor druged her instead of using hypnosis. He did it when he was giving her a Epidural for pain due to a traffic accident.

This perv was a medical doctor of high standing in his field. So people have to remember that it's not "hypnosis" that's evil...it's the sick minded operator on a power, control and ego trip, these people who like to prey on the helpless and play god with their "you are mine to do with as I please" attitude.

They should have given that dick 10 years...that article really upset me.

Hypnosis is a very useful tool...as is a firearm...if both are handled properly they are safe...in sick hands, it's the end of the world for some.

~Rick~
Message: Posted by: A l a i n B e ll o n (Mar 6, 2005 05:22PM)
A person under hypnotic trance, or any other type of enhanced sugestibility state will do as much as her belief system will allow.

When a suggested action is not something that the person would do in a normal awake state, then the person weights her belief on the suggestion against her willingness to do it.

If she beleives that it is possible that the hypnotist can make her do the action, and that belief is stronger than her unwillingness to do it, then then she may do it. Two beliefs are contraposed, the stronger one wins.

Example:

B1 "I should not steal"
vs.
B2 "The hypnotist can possibly make me steal against my will"

The advantage that B2 has over B1, is that the person may rationalize that it is ok to steal because "I am not really doing it, I am being forced". This is more prone to happen when the suggested action is bound by guilt. The fact that the hypnotist is using his "powers" to make a person do something, liberates that person from the guilt that would prevent her from doing it in the first place. In other words, the mere suggestion serves as an uninhibitor (as can be seen in almost every hypnosis show). This has much relevance to suggestions of sexual nature, where inhibitions and guilt are the prime deterrants of open sexual behavior.
Message: Posted by: Richard Busch (Mar 6, 2005 05:33PM)
This is very disturbing indeed. The initial problem is compounded because one doesn't know what a person will do and then later fall back on the myth of hypnotic domination as an excuse. The courts and juries tend to treat "hypnosis" as a loaded gun. Further misconception is promoted. It's a terrible thing all the way around.
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Mar 6, 2005 06:01PM)
How is it that he got of so easy? That article also P***** me off. I don't even do hypnosis, but the fact that he got of with a slap on the wrist makes my stomach turn.
Message: Posted by: kcalB (Mar 6, 2005 06:12PM)
This is just the type of incident I wanted to avoid when I designed the office that I see clients in.
I have Glass French Doors without curtains leading into the office and directly in view of the office opposite the glass doors I have a seating area with an unobstructed view of the whole inner office.
And I always insist that females are acompanied by someone.



I want to thank everyone for the input thus far and stress the point that we do need a seperate category for hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: A.G. (Mar 6, 2005 06:41PM)
Sebastian,
I agree that a seperate section for hypnosis would be great.Too much miss information going on.
I work as a hypnotist.

Cheers Gerard
Message: Posted by: Scott Xavier (Mar 6, 2005 07:11PM)
I believe both are equally guilty! I can't imagine anyone being that deeply under anothers influence, imagine their psychological state. Worse yet, imagine the hypnotists.
Message: Posted by: J ack Galloway (Mar 6, 2005 07:23PM)
I don't know Sebastian,

A section just for guys who can entertian with out props on a list for magicians?

Who would click the banner adds?

Cheers

Jack
Message: Posted by: enriqueenriquez (Mar 6, 2005 07:26PM)
Well Jack,

Due to the original subject on this topic, I guess that a lot of lawyers will we willing to put a banner on that forum.

;-)
Message: Posted by: J ack Galloway (Mar 6, 2005 07:29PM)
Ha, good one Enriqueenriquez

Have a good evening.

Best Wishes

Jack
Message: Posted by: RickSilmser (Mar 6, 2005 07:32PM)
Mr.Black...you are a smart man with your ways of thinking as far as your office lay out goes.Too many people have tried to make a fast buck by claiming untrue accusations against the Hypnotist. I always insisted on a friend coming along with the person to be put under, be it a male or female.

Mr. Busch, I also agree with you, sir...too many people today in the 21st. century, still have the 1950's B-movie attitude of hypnosis being a spell anyone can fall into and be a victim of. It's just plain ignorance on the part of society.

At the begining of all my shows, I make a point to stress that the volunteers are at all times, in complete control of their actions with no after effects other than a good nights sleep.

~Rick~
Message: Posted by: scott b. (Mar 6, 2005 07:46PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-06 19:01, chichi711 wrote:
How is it that he got of so easy? That article also P***** me off. I don't even do hypnosis, but the fact that he got of with a slap on the wrist makes my stomach turn.
[/quote]

He did get it light, but assure you that once the guys where he is going find out, they will rip him apart (literally).


But yes. It is a disgrace. And as Mr. Busch said "A disgrace".
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Mar 6, 2005 08:47PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-06 17:15, shrink wrote:
Bandler coined the term: "psycho the rapist". Meaning Psychotherapists. It didn't have a sexual connotation but refered to the techiniques and methods used by many traditional psychotherapists. These techniques tend to be intrusive and keep the problem in place if not make it worse.[/quote]

Which techniques? Do you mean that psychotherapy techniques in general are intrusive, don't help the problem and may make it worse?

[quote]
On 2005-03-06 20:11, Scott Xavier wrote:
I believe both are equally guilty! I can't imagine anyone being that deeply under anothers influence, imagine their psychological state. Worse yet, imagine the hypnotists.
[/quote]
By both do you mean the hynotist and the alleged victims? Are you suggesting that the patients consciously consented to sex and then lied about being under a spell?

[quote]
On 2005-03-06 18:33, Richard Busch wrote:
This is very disturbing indeed. The initial problem is compounded because one doesn't know what a person will do and then later fall back on the myth of hypnotic domination as an excuse. The courts and juries tend to treat "hypnosis" as a loaded gun. Further misconception is promoted. It's a terrible thing all the way around.
[/quote]
Do you think that it's unlikely that the patents could have been coerced into sex via hynosis, or impossible? What exactly is the misconception?
Message: Posted by: delbmarcs (Mar 6, 2005 09:42PM)
Psychetherapy
Message: Posted by: Scott Xavier (Mar 6, 2005 10:44PM)
Jimtron, I believe many have danced around the issue on this board enough.
1. Yes there is something to Hypnosis.
2. I HAVE NEVER seen anyone under in such a state to perform anything immoral or indecent to this degree.
3. Lets face it for the most part hypnosis is the audiences's WILLINGness to play the part of the entertainer.
4. Why do those initial hypnotic tests weed out soooo many of us? We aren't willing participants. The only one's willing to to perform such an indecent act would either be those who in some way wanted to do it, or the other are those who who were scared and intimidated to perform such acts.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a certified hypnotherapist. However, I have performed hypnosis quite a few time. I do realize this post may sound arrogant so if it offends, I am sorry. Perhaps some one a little more qualified can shed some more light and help verify some of my above expressed points. -Thank You
Message: Posted by: Richard Busch (Mar 6, 2005 10:49PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-06 21:47, jimtron wrote:

[quote]
On 2005-03-06 18:33, Richard Busch wrote:
This is very disturbing indeed. The initial problem is compounded because one doesn't know what a person will do and then later fall back on the myth of hypnotic domination as an excuse. The courts and juries tend to treat "hypnosis" as a loaded gun. Further misconception is promoted. It's a terrible thing all the way around.
[/quote]
Do you think that it's unlikely that the patients could have been coerced into sex via hynosis, or impossible? What exactly is the misconception?
[/quote]

What I think is not relevant here nor is this a forum to go into it. What does matter is that the public gets yet another dose of the macho-hypnotist control myth, the I can make you do this or that, you are in my power, under my spell, and so forth. Hopeless unending misunderstandings and misinformation that just goes on and on and on. See my The Destiny Response for more.
Message: Posted by: A l a i n B e ll o n (Mar 7, 2005 12:11AM)
Richard,

Exactly.
Message: Posted by: Scott Xavier (Mar 7, 2005 02:14AM)
I'll third that. This isn't the forum....
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Mar 7, 2005 05:33AM)
Shrink, I have heard Bandler use the hypno the rapist term also. Bandler claims many things which other people have told me have been utter BS, allegedly.

Sebastian, As far as hypnosis needing a seperate catagory, I agree. I think there should also be seperate ones within that too.

Stage
Therapy
etc etc

Rick, it is unfortunate that there are predators in all walks of life who will pray on vulnerable people. I left a job (literally walked out) because of one such person. I went to a line manager and explained exactly the situation and nothing was done, so I walked.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Mar 7, 2005 05:34AM)
It is possible to "guide" someone do something they wouldn't normally do. I would say manipulation rather than control. It isn't possible with everyone but there are people out there that are highly suggestable. It is also possible to manipulate someone into doing something while they "believe" they are doing something else. Which means belief systems and values can be bypassed.

You really think these people who went for therapy engaged in these activities because they thought it was a good idea? C'mon guys. Hypnotic evidence is not useable in the American Courts because it has been shown to implant false memories.

Shrink
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Mar 7, 2005 05:43AM)
Shrink,

Could not agree more with you. I know of someoneone who was abused by a physiotherapist.

The point I am making here is that no hypnosis was used and she is a VERY intelligent and articulate person and she was "groomed" over many months.

People do not go for HELP to be abused. It is unfortunate that there are some sick individuals out there who pray on people who want help and, at that point in their lives may be vulnerable.

I am all for registered bodies which inspect their members (just like OFFSTEAD and ALI do) regularly and resrict people from practicing if they do not achieve certain grades. While it would not eliminate every bad person out there if it helped it has to be good.

Its not just physical abuse either, the subconscious is very delicate and very literal and if you do not understand how to communicate to it correctly you can do vast amounts of damage without even being aware.
Message: Posted by: Scott Xavier (Mar 7, 2005 05:45AM)
Some one should start a private forum for hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: Karswell (Mar 7, 2005 06:11AM)
Another well-hammered nail in the coffin of peoples preconceptions.

[url=http://www.warphead.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=ASC&topic_id=2901&forum=26&move=next&topic_time=1083076943]Click here[/url]

Some more on the case with some opinions on the subject of the old will/moral/'hypnosis' debate.

Nick.
Message: Posted by: Richard Busch (Mar 7, 2005 07:06AM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-07 01:11, Alain Bellon wrote:
Richard,

Exactly.

[/quote]

The terrible acts that some of these people do, they do as individuals, not as "hypnotists". If a baker robs a bank, it has nothing to do with bread.

The Magic Café or any similar magic group has no business fostering discussions on "hypnotherapy" any more than it would on surgery or glass blowing. It is entirely inappropriate. This may come as a shock to some, but not every topic in the world is meant for a magic forum. Therapy isn't magic nor something to play 20 questions about nor air uninformed opinions. There is already enough misinformation available from the internet. Please don't do this guys. I know a few people here will understand. Stick to magic and drop the therapy. Respectfully, rb.
Message: Posted by: Desix (Mar 7, 2005 07:17AM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-07 06:34, shrink wrote:
It is possible to "guide" someone do something they wouldn't normally do. I would say manipulation rather than control. It isn't possible with everyone but there are people out there that are highly suggestable. It is also possible to manipulate someone into doing something while they "believe" they are doing something else. Which means belief systems and values can be bypassed.
[/quote]

I lecture on hypnosis frequently. The best way I found to describe it is by asking the very awake students "Would you cluck like a chicken for me right now?" They all say no. Then I phrase the question a little differently: "if I put a million dollars on the table right now and asked you to cluck...what would you do?" Invariably, I get a roomful of cluckers...My point is that my understanding of hypnosis is that it is a release of inhibitions or it attenuates risk of embarrassment. That does not mean that a person has total control over the hypnotized person. IT allows the individual to dissociate from their every day lives, but it doesn't change the person's core moral beliefs. There hasn't been a lot of research on this, but the rule of thumb has ALWAYS been that you can't make somebody do something that goes against their basic beliefs and morals. This article, however, might bring some of that into question.
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Mar 7, 2005 10:04AM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-06 20:26, enriqueenriquez wrote:
Well Jack,

Due to the original subject on this topic, I guess that a lot of lawyers will we willing to put a banner on that forum.

;-)
[/quote]

Nice one. That gave me a really good laugh.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Mar 7, 2005 11:28AM)
Why not discuss hypnosis here? It's been mentioned several times on this thread that hypnosis is misunderstood. Why not clear things up here? It's not a hypnosis forum pe se, but many mentalists are interested in hypnosis, and this forum has a wide viewership.

Also, I'm still a little confused about the responses to the sex case. I wonder if anyone would mind being more specific about their opinions on this. Do you think the hypnotist really did manipulate or coerce the patients into sex? Do you think the patients are lying, and the sex never happened? Or that there was sex, but it was consensual?

[quote]
On 2005-03-06 23:49, Richard Busch wrote:

What I think is not relevant here nor is this a forum to go into it...
[/quote]
What you think IS relevant here, in my opinion. The Café is a place for Café members to express their opinions. If a hypnosis forum is started, then it can be discussed their, but until then, the mentalism forum seems as good a place as any.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Mar 7, 2005 12:04PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-07 08:06, Richard Busch wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-03-07 01:11, Alain Bellon wrote:
Richard,

Exactly.

[/quote]

The terrible acts that some of these people do, they do as individuals, not as "hypnotists". If a baker robs a bank, it has nothing to do with bread.

The Magic Café or any similar magic group has no business fostering discussions on "hypnotherapy" any more than it would on surgery or glass blowing. It is entirely inappropriate. This may come as a shock to some, but not every topic in the world is meant for a magic forum. Therapy isn't magic nor something to play 20 questions about nor air uninformed opinions. There is already enough misinformation available from the internet. Please don't do this guys. I know a few people here will understand. Stick to magic and drop the therapy. Respectfully, rb.
[/quote]

With the greatest of respect Richard the discussion isn't about hypnotherapy (or bread) but the possibility of making someone do something they wouldn't normally do using hypnosis. ~Hypnotherapy I believe is about assisting others overcome problems not tricking them into having sex.

I spent nearly 8 years as a full time professional stage hypnotist. I have worked just about every kind of venue you can imagine. 90% of my volunteers couldn't remember anything despite being on stage up to two hours. I managed to follow up on a small precentage of them months after and the majority still had no recollection of the two hours on stage. Others said it came back to them piece by piece but they still had foggy parts.

I know there are some people who would do just about anything you asked them while in trance. I feel many "hypnotists" of the stage or therapy know this but keep it quiet because it makes life difficult for them.

I don't know the details of the case but I would say that it is possible to take advantage of someone in this way.


Shrink
For anyone interested in looking further check out this book "open to Suggestion the uses and abuses of hypnosis" by Robert Temple.
Message: Posted by: SHOC (Mar 7, 2005 12:49PM)
I found it curious that after a plea agreement the offender only received 90 days in jail.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Mar 7, 2005 01:34PM)
To Richard:
If you look at the actual description of this room 'Penny for your Thoughts' you will find that it is designed to hold discussion on "mentalism and hypnosis". That's why we come in here.

To Sebastion:
by asking that all female clients are accompanied doesn't that stop you from doing your job? Or don't you deal with repressions? which let's face it... can only 'really' be dealt through hypno-analysis which questions, which means a LOT of digging through very personal stuff. I am now talking of: 'Duty to Patient'. Or doesn't that happen in the States?
Or maybe you only deal with women who want to stop smoking etc. (although even that might need alalysis).

Bobser.
Message: Posted by: Richard Busch (Mar 7, 2005 04:24PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-07 14:34, bobser wrote:
To Richard:
If you look at the actual description of this room 'Penny for your Thoughts' you will find that it is designed to hold discussion on "mentalism and hypnosis". That's why we come in here.
[/quote]
TO BOBSER:

You misunderstand me completely. A few people asked for a Magic Café section on hypnoTHERAPY, not just stage hyp. They wanted hypnoTHERAPY. That's what I am referring to. I tried to make that clear. I'm going to hold out my participation for Magic Café areas on religion, politics, the Kennedy and Lincoln assassinations, the National Debt, and the abortion issue. This is a public area of a magic forum. I have trained, professional colleagues to discuss my/our day job with. If you and Shrink (who I otherwise respect quite highly) want to discuss therapy and related issues with strangers and laypeople who happen to have computers, that is your choice. I want nothing to do with the inappropriate discussions and misinformation you can't help but encourage on a public forum. It think it's a huge mistake for many reasons beyond the purpose of the Magic Café. Count me out.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Mar 7, 2005 05:46PM)
Yes Richard, you're correct, I did misunderstand you. Please accept my apologies.

However, it does seem apparent that many of the guys in here actually enjoy talking about and sharing information about hypnotherapy, so if everyone is happy and no-one is getting hurt, what's the problem?

I mean if you want to open up a thread about the Kennedys I will either join it cos' I like it or if I don't I won't write anything on it.
What I won't do is tell you and a dozen or so guys in here that it is my opinion you shouldn't be talking about it (albeit I would be puzzled as to why you wouyld want to discauss the Kennedys).

The world is changing... it's much free-er now. c'mon in, the water's warm!
And remember you mentioned uninformed opinions and disinformation. Well, there are a few experts (approved hypnotherapists)in here, so why don't you sit back and learn from them? It's free.

Bobser.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Mar 7, 2005 06:04PM)
Richard I only clarified a quote by Bandler. I also believe that there is a lot if not more misinformation on the subject of hypnosis by not talking about it. Since stage hypnosis is very popular I think it is responsable to make it clear the real potential dangers. I also believe talking about (not teaching how) therapy can only be a good thing. To as many strangers as possible. Especially those tempted to take up hypnosis in the pursuit of entertainment. A natural progression would be to move into hypnotherapy. And while I agree a magic forum isn't the place for a hypnotherapy section there are many news groups devoted to the subject if you look for them. I don't see anything wrong with these newsgroups. Any form of hypnosis I have always recommend that you seek appropriate training.

Shrink
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Mar 7, 2005 07:27PM)
Scott Xavier:
Do you mind responding to my question from earlier in this thread, about what you meant by "both are equally guilty"?

Shrink:
Would you mind responding to my question about which psychotherapy techniques are intrusive and unhelpful?

Thanks,

Jim
Message: Posted by: shrink (Mar 8, 2005 04:48AM)
Jim: From an NLP point of view and personal perspective. Techniques that deal with content rather than process prolong a problem by re-inforcing the pattern that is causing the negative state. in Many cases certain problems can be resolved in a day rather than months. And in many cases even after many months no resolution at all. That is really all I will say as this really isn't the right place for discussing therapy.

Shrink

There are boards forums devoted to this do a search..
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Mar 8, 2005 11:57AM)
Shrink: "That is really all I will say as this really isn't the right place for discussing therapy."

I didn't mean to get too far off topic with a discussion of therapy, but was responding to your quote:

"Bandler coined the term: "psycho the rapist". Meaning Psychotherapists. It didn't have a sexual connotation but refered to the techiniques and methods used by many traditional psychotherapists. These techniques tend to be intrusive and keep the problem in place if not make it worse."

I was interested in discussing this further, as I don't clearly understand your point, but I guess the matter is closed.

Thanks anyway,
Jim
Message: Posted by: Partizan (Mar 8, 2005 12:54PM)
While rape at knifepoint would seem more sinistar the only difference is in the tool used to against the victem.

Allen Bellon, Your early post starts off with a person, this person quickly assumes a female label. Interesting.


If you are smart you can use Hyp to make a person do anything they don't want too do. It requires a Hyptst that knows much about human nature and a fair bit of Hyp.
Once the method is understood the application becomes simple (based on a skilled person) The ease of negation is niaeve in its simplicity, as with all good techniques.

I would also point out. People who don't want to touch spiders (base fear reaction) receive Hyps and can do what they didn't want too a few minutes ago.

But when you realise the spider response is caused by mal interpretation of sensoria and the resulting confusing barrage of cascading nural misinformation, this results in the reactions seen in, and felt by the person we label phobic.

This is the scary thing though, to consider this.
These rapists have studied and are intelligent people, they may have a good profession. and with all this insight they still choose to rape.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Mar 9, 2005 07:08AM)
What the hell's going on? I've lost the thread completely!!!