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Topic: How Do You Think Steve Forte Got So Good?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Mar 9, 2005 01:01AM)
How did Steve Forte study to become so good when in his time of coming up there were no videos he could’ve learned from or were there? Who taught him? What books do you think he studied from and are they still out there for us to learn from? Why is he so good now and why is he still getting better when there is still no DVD/video out there of which he can learn from that exceeds his GPS or is there? I’d like to hear what ya’ll think…

Doc
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Mar 9, 2005 01:18AM)
I think that speculating is pointless.

If you want to know what Steve studied, you should ask Steve.
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Mar 9, 2005 01:18AM)
I think it proves there's more to all this than having a collection of videos.

Sorta shuts down the people who complain "If I only had such-and-such video, then I'd be as good as Forte."
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Mar 9, 2005 01:25AM)
I'd like to start off answering one of my own questions by saying that there is a better video/DVD out there that's better than Steve's GPS in my opinion and I'm one of probably 5 people that have it, I know because I made it and gave it to the rest at Steve's request because we all were there and yes Steve is the star of it and I'm a co-star and no ya'll can't have it because Steve told me not to let anyone have it and that includes you.

Sincerely

Doc
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Mar 9, 2005 03:07AM)
I bet Steve Forte did have his hands on the classic. "Expert at the Card Table".
Message: Posted by: Gary Plants (Mar 9, 2005 03:43AM)
Steve wrote a wonderful introduction to the Italian printing of Expert at the Card Table. I think this was reprinted in one of the magazines.....Genii I believe.

Gary
Message: Posted by: Jay Elf (Mar 9, 2005 04:09AM)
Hello, Doc.
This might answer you a bit. I once watched legendary Cardini's very rare private family home video. It is NOT a film of his appearing TV program. Cardini appeared several TV programs where he unfortunately was past his prime time althogh his act was far incredible and beyond imagination even then. Cardini was not a TV generation performer, but a vaudeville generation one. In that film, Cardini was in his prime time and privately practicing with cards and billiard balls. How was that? I couldn't say any word. I couldn't believe my eyes!!!!! I know masters like L.Burton and McBride. They are true masters of the art. However, Cardini's sleight of hand skill was very much like CG. For example a simple fake toss is a basic move for most magicians, but Cardini's looked the very miracle. I couldn't really believe that. Yes, it gave me the very same impact when I watched GPS for the first time. Additionally, in the film, Legendary Nelson Downs also showed several coin manipulation. No word, too!!! I thought how and where did they learn these. They were in their times when no video exsisted, let alone TV. Besides there were few books about conjuring compared to these days situation.
I hope this will help you a bit.

Sincerely,
Jay
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 9, 2005 04:58AM)
Hi Doc

Have you read the interview at the Dealer site I put up he was answering to questions casino dealers etc were putting to him. The interview is interesting. Here is a question someone asked that he has not answered yet.

“Bruce, GR, New York
How did you got involved in casino gambling in the first place...
I recall reading that you were born on the East Coast and, according to Jim Keller's Foreword to the book, later, at the age of 28, you became the youngest casino manager in Vegas. What happened in between? What brought you to Vegas, and how did you catch the "casino bug"? How did someone with no Casino gaming experience learn to deal all of the games and advance through the ranks so quickly?”

He also mentions a new book on dice by “Stanford Wong”. I wondered when reading this name if he was “Hong Kong Wong” the famous cheat but I do not think so? “Stanford Wong”. book can be got in report form for $200 prior to the book being published.. I thought it might be of interest to you. Do you know Stanford Wong? He is regarded has an expert on Black Jack and has wrote a few books on it..

Regards

Tommy

Also did you know the guy who Deniro played in "Casino" the movie was a real guy and as far as I know is still around. I guess Steve would have known this guy.


Posted: Mar 9, 2005 7:02am
-----------------------------------------
http://www.frankleftyrosenthal.com/

Frank "Lefty" Rosenthal This is the guy "Ace" in "Casino".

http://www.dicedealer.com/steve_forte_interview.htm

This is the interview with Steve.
Message: Posted by: ziatro (Mar 9, 2005 07:55AM)
I think Bill hit the nail squarely on the head. Why ask other people to speculate when you can ask the man himself. Something that is pretty much a given, is that most top magicians work at all parts of their magic a lot more than enthusiasts.
Message: Posted by: card123 (Mar 9, 2005 07:56AM)
How many hours a day did he practice?
Message: Posted by: Logan Five (Mar 9, 2005 08:19AM)
I think you have to be a casino dealer to post on that board that Tommy is giving out.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Mar 9, 2005 09:38AM)
Hi Doc,

The video's you have sound fantastic and probably contain unique and world beating gambling sleights. Personally, I already feel totally overwhelmed by the numerous sleights publically available via Steve Forte, Richard Turner, Ed Marlo, Darwin Ortiz, Andrew Wimhurst etc. It feels like these false shuffles, hops, hand mucks and false deals will keep me going for many years. And you never know, Steve might just reprise his GPS videos's with new updated DVD set....not that I'm holding my breath.

I thought I would rush in where angels fear to tread and speculate a little about Steve Forte. One thing I think I have noticed about him is that he seems a very modest man, even a little shy and diffident. On the other hand, he is clearly passionate about gambling and Casino management issues and has shown a single minded determination to become a top executive, consultant and expert interpreter of the labyrinth that is Casino security. If you put the qualities of a certain reserve or shyness together with driving single minded ambition, you get someone with a tremendous capacity to focus. Add in a natural flare for card manipulation, long hours spend training and working as a Vagas dealer, the opportunity to mix and share ideas with gamblers and hustlers of all walks of life, a burning curiosity to read and learn, long hours of solitary practice and you begin to get an idea of where Steve Forte's unique talent originates from. On top of that I seem to remember that his greatest passion is for dice!!!

With regard to books on sleight of hand, I'd go with 'Expert Card Technique', Buckleys 'Card Control' Marlo's three Riffle Shuffle System manuscripts and his 'Seconds, Centers and Bottoms', Fulves Riffle Shuffle Manuscripts and Erdnase's 'Expert at the Card Table'.

On the other hand, I could just be horribly and hopelessly wrong.

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: ASW (Mar 9, 2005 10:39AM)
Steve who?
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Mar 9, 2005 11:06AM)
How do we really know if anyone, anyone, is as good as their reputation or hype?
Message: Posted by: ASW (Mar 9, 2005 11:13AM)
This guy sounds good. Does he have lecture notes? I'm interested in rope magic and clowning.
Message: Posted by: winstonwolf (Mar 9, 2005 01:05PM)
If there's anybody (currently alive) more experienced in the subject matter than Steve then I'd like to know who it is!

A lot of people talk the talk, buy Steve's book and you'll see he walks it too.

The thing that makes Steve in a class of his own (IMO) is the breadth AND depth of his knowledge. Few can claim to be top card mechanics, he is that PLUS dice etc etc.

Also in my correspondance with him he is an extremely helpful and unassuming guy.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 9, 2005 09:45PM)
Breadth and depth of his knowledge relates to gambling moves. I would speculate that if he was a casino manager by 28 he would have had access to any cheat caught in Vegas also in the old days many of the top cheats were given jobs on the cat walks and he could have gained a wealth of knowledge from them. I know I would have if I had been him.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Mar 9, 2005 11:40PM)
Jay Elf regarding Cardini, Now that man was awesome. I have a magic video of him when he was on the Ed Sullivan show with the cigarettes and the coins and he’s absolutely incredible to watch. As a matter of fact I patterned my dice-switching device using the same style technique as Cardini.

Tommy thanks for this new info. I didn’t know anything about it and I’m glad you brought it to my attention. I very much appreciate it. Thanks

Tielie Steve does have all the Experts at the Card Table books on his shelf including Expert Card Technique.

Paul regarding those books and manuscripts yes he does have them on his bookshelf and Steve is awesome with dice and I mean awesome. The only thing that Steve couldn’t do was my dice switching move that I invented and showed this forum. Oh he couldn’t out shoot (controlled dice shooting) the guy that I showed him on my laptop but he still wins by a landslide.

Steve did study Darwin’s books and have every one of them on his bookshelf. Why wouldn’t Steve have Darwin books on his shelf when Darwin has the most magic books of any magician living? Darwin has historical books anyone would want to learn from including Steve Forte and Darwin utilizes this knowledge in his books therefore Darwin’s books are a great source for information and historical facts.

As I stated along time ago Steve Forte has all of Darwin’s book on his bookshelf and Darwin has all of Steve’s video/book. This shows the respect that each one of them has for one another’s talents. Did not at one time Darwin testify for Steve?

Winstonwolf you are 100% correct in everything you wrote but you forgot to say that he also has the money to prove it too.

[quote]
On 2005-03-09 22:45, tommy wrote:
Breadth and depth of his knowledge relates to gambling moves. I would speculate that if he was a casino manager by 28 he would have had access to any cheat caught in Vegas also in the old days many of the top cheats were given jobs on the cat walks and he could have gained a wealth of knowledge from them. I know I would have if I had been him.

Tommy
[/quote]
Point well taken. I believe he did and just like you I would’ve gotten knowledge from them too.

Hey ya’ll thanks for your post, I’m learning new things as ya’ll post this was the reason I made this up so we all can learn old and new things together.

Keep the post coming some of them are very informative.

Doc

P.S. Mr Z Sorry....
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 10, 2005 12:26AM)
Also Doc I recall Dustin Marks the Black Jack cheat saying that he, “Dustin” went to dealer school in Vegas and had learnt his moves from the top magicians based there. Vegas is the magic capitol of the world not just the gambling capitol. Learning Forte stuff must be easier working there, from the inside so to speak.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: foolsnobody (Mar 10, 2005 02:16AM)
I think it is precisely because he didn't have videos that he had a chance to become excellent at gambling sleights, for the reason that his mind was therefore not clouded by someone else's visual interpretation of the words in the books. Whether he understood or misunderstood the verbal descriptions, he had to process them in his mind, and was forced to use his own discrimination to decide whether or not he was doing a move in a way that would fool anybody. He had to "be natural" in his execution of sleights because he had no other (inferior)role model to copy.

Well this is only a theory. It is equally amazing to me that anyone who did not have the tool of the video camera could be objective enough about whether his moves were good enough to fool anyone, because nearly all of us blink at the key moment when we use a mirror. So another quality he must have possessed was supreme objectivity toward his own strengths and weaknesses and very little ego in the sense of needing to be right when he himself could see the flaws in his own work.Thus he was able to correct those flaws.

This topic is really not about Steve Forte at all. It is about us. As others pointed out, how could we know what Steve Forte went through? What matters is what we go through. To become excellent at anything. I believe it is idiosyncratic for every individual.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 10, 2005 02:46AM)
Yes I think a lot of that is true. I think you can learn from others but the best stuff you teach yourself. I think Einstein said you start to learn when you have forgotten everything you have been taught. I have found some things just playing with the cards, trying to solve a problem and these things are the things I use most and do best.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Mar 10, 2005 07:26AM)
Genius is often defined as 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. As far as gambling sleights and my efforts are concerned, its 99.99% perspiration and a worn out washing machine.

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Mar 10, 2005 11:07PM)
Hey foolsnobody that was a great analysis and even though I was trying to teach and learn by doing this thread many are just not interested and you can't force them to learn something that they just want to do for the fun of it.

Tommy's post really got me to thinking and I did receive extra advice and I learn just a little bit more from the little bit of post that were presented already. I now know why most of ya'll magicians won't ever become great it's because of what Walter Scott said... I guess my teacher's years of experience is finally making an impression on me. I guess that's why I'm still learning.

To my real students out there I know that you're reading and listening and for that I thank you.

Doc
Message: Posted by: rannie (Mar 11, 2005 12:08AM)
Hello Doc,

Great to have you aboard again. I think one must breath, eat drink and sleep ______ (fill in the blanks) in order to ba great. It first stems from GENUINE interest in the subject, be it gambling or magic. Heck even Fishing.

Obviously , all the greats out there , stretched further than their comfort zones, way past the breaking point but staying intact , in pursuit of knowledge. One must be a student forever. The books and materials are just for reference in my humble opinion. Getting it down with the real men is where the knowledge is turned into actual moves. I live in Asia and let me tell you guys there are quite a handful of cardmen out here. Not magicians but card men. We call them "Balasador" . I have met and mingled with some of them. Most are in hiding of course. They practice day in day out .

Also by teaching you learn twice, so I guess all these elements put together makes someone that good.

I hope this answers something maestro.

a hopeful student,

Rannie
Message: Posted by: DzH (Apr 13, 2005 06:16AM)
I think Steve's great acheivements in card sleights comes from his amazing patience... I don't think he every goes through a book and finds a dificult sleights, and just goes on to next sleight to see if that is easier. if you know what I mean.
He probably tests every sleights, masters it, and modifies it to with his own adjustments to the sleights so that they become more effecient to him.

I hope you understand what I mean.

regards,
Dennis
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 13, 2005 06:31AM)
Also because he is not a magician? then he has no need to spend time learning tricks and can concentrate on gambling moves.
Message: Posted by: Gianni (Apr 13, 2005 09:00PM)
Nobody gets that good at anything without one key ingredient: they must LOVE to practice. And I mean that literally. It's not that someone is "willing" to practice, it's that they really love it.

Gianni
Message: Posted by: magicduro (Apr 13, 2005 09:24PM)
Unknown 419,

Who really cares about how great you and your Steve Forte video is?! Besides being a magician, I teach 8th grade and no matter how slick and sly your sneaky sleights are they will never compare to the importance of educating the youth. If you want to brag about something, you had better put it in perspective with the real world and not your silly magical playground. It's time to free your minds people!
Message: Posted by: MagicMarker (Apr 13, 2005 10:06PM)
I've got to admit, I'm slightly confused by Doc's posting. He asks a question that he seems to know the answer to and then berates people who dare to offer their opinion.

My own opinion is the same as one already stated, Not having Video's was probably a blessing. Video's and lecture notes on new tricks/sleights/moves have a habbit of moving you on to the next challenge before you've mastered the current one. It's a failing in myself that I see all too clearly and I'm working on.

-MM
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Apr 14, 2005 12:18PM)
Hey Doc.



You have some good information to pass on. I know you don't tell everything you know but there is a lot to learn from what you do post.
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Apr 14, 2005 12:44PM)
How do I think Steve Forte got so good?

Good hands, a natural aptitude. Great Mentors. A good work ethic. Practice. An understanding of the psychology of the card thief. Common sense. If you combine these traits you have the raw material necessary for a great cardman...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Apr 14, 2005 05:30PM)
RS1963,you're right! We all know that card cheats are such thin skinned sensitives, looking out for others, so close to the divine - is that a nimbus or a shiner?
But I must disagree that there is a lot to learn from Doc's posts; nothing to learn, just further confirmation that a sucker is born every minute...or so it seems.

A.
Message: Posted by: 14allnall41 (Apr 15, 2005 01:18PM)
Unknown419,
Just a quick question. You probably know Sal since you know Steve. If that's true have you seen Mike Z? Personally I think Mike will be one of the best if he keeps up with it. What are your thoughts?
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Apr 15, 2005 01:21PM)
I had a video of me and my old girlfriend, in full view, on a shelf at home, that my wife dusted but never suspected what was contained therein. Now to me, that may be the greatest 'gambling' video of all time, and no ya'll can't have it!

A.
Message: Posted by: petersd (Apr 15, 2005 03:57PM)
And how do we know Doc is a real cheat, because he said so? I am not saying that he isn't, but does somebody with knowledge really know? I have my doubts but will stand corrected.

Dave
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Apr 15, 2005 04:10PM)
Petersd I understand what you are trying to say. That question can be asked of most anyone on here really how do you know anyone on here is a magician unless you actually know the person or know for a fact that a well known name person on here is really that person. You never can really know for sure. Just because someone says there someone means nothing really.


I have communicated with Doc a number of times. He does know what he is talking about. That doesn't prove anything either just because I said so. you have to make up your own mind.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Apr 15, 2005 04:12PM)
Before you express doubts about Doc, please do a search. This issue has come up many times and has been confirmed many times as well.

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Apr 15, 2005 04:17PM)
Paul has the best answer for anyone who is actually wondering about Doc.

I am sorry if My last post sounded snotty I was just trying to make a point if I even had one.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Apr 15, 2005 05:09PM)
As Paul H said above,

please do a search before writting something on this forum, especially for someone so well known as Doc. If there is one man in the world, to meet the description of a card cheat as it is described in novels for magicians, this is Doc.

But, as they say, ignorance is bliss!!

It's nice for things to get stired up though, so Doc can begin to write again with his unique style, that many find peculiar and offensive.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Apr 15, 2005 05:40PM)
[quote]On 2005-04-15 18:09, Yiannis wrote:
. . . as they say, ingnorance is bliss!![/quote]
While it is quite true that many people say this, every one of those who do have gotten the quote wrong:

[b][i]Where ignorance is bliss,
'Tis folly to be wise.[/i][/b]
Thomas Gray
[i]Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College[/i]

Mr. Gray was not in any way suggesting that one is better off not knowing. What he says is that if you're happy not knowing, don't waste your time trying to find out.

It's (well past) time that people started getting this right.
Message: Posted by: petersd (Apr 15, 2005 06:36PM)
I stand corrected.

RS1963, I did not find your post rude or offensive.

Paul H, Thanks for the advice on the search.

Open mouth, insert foot.

Dave
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Apr 15, 2005 06:44PM)
Petersd that's good I looked at it after I posted and it was one of those things were you think Maybe I shoud have put that in a better way but it was too late to edit it. I'm glad I didn't offend anyone.
Message: Posted by: petersd (Apr 15, 2005 06:51PM)
RS1963, At least I wasn't offended. I was surprised at the names that stated he is the real deal. My fault for not doing my homework.

Doc, I will apoligize asking the question to begin with. Ignorance is no excuse on my part.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Apr 15, 2005 11:41PM)
Hey Petersd, your apology is accepted and for you other guys who have vouched for me thank you. Don't forget to check out my video clips.

14allnall41, Yes I do know Sal we started out together in the mid 80’s. Sal moved away and directed his talents towards the casino and I directed mine towards the streets. Sal is the one who arranged for the best of the best to meet up in Vegas at Steve’s house and because Sal and Steve is such good friends, this is why Steve let me video tape him and out of respect for this courtesy I must abide by his wishes.

Now as far as me knowing Mike Z I did not meet him when I was in Vegas so I can’t speak on him.
Message: Posted by: petersd (Apr 16, 2005 12:11AM)
Doc,

I spent some time reading through a thread "would a cheat really write this" or something to that nature and was quite impressed. I jumped to conclusions and convicted you before I knew facts. My mistake big time.

I am not offended and to say the least, I learned a valuable lesson about judging without facts.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Apr 16, 2005 03:41AM)
Petersd sometimes we judge people wrong and by doing so this should teach us not to judge. I'm a cheat and a cheat is a thief and that's totally wrong in the eyes of God but only God is my judge. I hope that I have gained a friend because of this. If you need help regarding something related to cards or dice please feel free to ask me. I don't let out all the secrets but certain things I do.

I hope all is well with you and your family

Best Wishes

Your New Friend

Doc

P.S. For those who call me a thief "He who is without SIN cast the first stone."
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 16, 2005 05:21AM)
None of use are perfect. I myself am susceptible to getting stoned.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Apr 16, 2005 12:24PM)
Alewishus I was going to write that I never call anyone a fool because the bible says not to because you're only endangering your own life but I guess calling someone and educated fool is just as wrong of which I'm guilty. I'm wrong for doing so, so I guess knuckle head would have to do.

Doc
Message: Posted by: daffy (Apr 16, 2005 02:16PM)
Doc,

Some times ago, I heard about a video by Steve Forte called "Crossroaders", produced by Paul Donnelly, but it seems to me that this video is a ghost. Do you have more informations ?

Regards,

Daffy
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Apr 16, 2005 04:59PM)
If the only thing you take from this thread is the idea that you even don't know what you don't know, then you'll have learned a valuable lesson. Once you realize that, and clearly grasp the concept, then you can begin to learn. Imagine that nothing that Doc says is true. What have you learned? And then imagine that it is ALL true, what have you learned now? And if the truth lies somewhere in between the two extremes, what value is there in knowing that? I have learned quite a lot about many people, and many things, just reading this thread...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: magicduro (Apr 16, 2005 08:43PM)
Tommy,

Well done. You took 3 pages and summed it all up. Lol. This is the best thread in a while.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Apr 16, 2005 10:19PM)
This is one kooky thread.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Apr 16, 2005 10:36PM)
Ya'll win. Paul thanks for writing it's very much appreciated.

Respectfully

Doc
Message: Posted by: Jay Elf (Apr 16, 2005 11:35PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-16 00:41, Unknown419 wrote:
Don't forget to check out my video clips.
[/quote]
Dear Doc,
Hi. I would like to watch your video clips. I always love a real thing. Where could I? Thanks much.

Sincerely,
Jay
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Apr 17, 2005 04:02PM)
http://cyngaporemagic.com/doc/

Check the above Jay...
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Apr 17, 2005 04:40PM)
Yes, a fun thread.

A.
Message: Posted by: petersd (Apr 17, 2005 06:32PM)
Doc,

My family is doing great, thanks for asking.

The more I read your threads the more I understand about reading between the lines. I am not a cheat but I will not chastise you for being one. I have been reading Casino Game Protection from Forte and I must say it is an interesting read. I know it just probably touches the tip of the iceberg but a real eye opener still.

I for one enjoy reading your posts.

Dave
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 17, 2005 07:08PM)
Dave

Have you learnt anything about “cards” from that book that is not covered in ECT and RCT and Expert at the Card Table that makes it worth the money. I mean moves as opposed to things like card counting .

Regards

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Apr 17, 2005 10:00PM)
It is not a move heavy book, but it gets you thinking. Casino cheating and advantage play seems to be more head than hands stuff - though I've only had the book for about a week.


A.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Apr 18, 2005 12:40AM)
Hey ya'll Craig just came over today to see me and brought over Steve Forte's book and guess what? I saw my dice hold out that I made in it next to another one that was given to Steve. For the record Steve did not put in my vanishing dice switcher for all of you who think Steve is giving up the good stuff. We keep this to ourselves like we're suppose to.


Some of you think that Steve must be a real SUCKER for giving casino's this information but he's not in the least. Did Dai Vernon tell ya'll all of his real good stuff before he died? What some of you need to do is re-read "Would a Cheat write This". Did you not read when we went into the casino together the owner's were scared....what were they scared of? You need to check your history and for the record the CASINO OWNER'S WERE SCARED WHEN DAMIEN N. showed up for the opening of his movie SHADE and he's no where near Steve's level.

Oh and for my brand new killer moves, you have no idea of my killer moves nor do you know Steve's killer moves as a matter of fact you don't know any killer moves of any real hustler.


Doc

Hey Al thanks for writing, I don't have the book with me but the one with the two prongs is the one that I made. For the record, those dice hold outs are out dated in my book compared to my new one.

Al one more thing, I don't mind this kind of chit chat it gets things stirring and unknown questions answered. We're just voicing our opinions out loud so please don't think that you're offending me, by your actions is how my students learn new things.

Thanks in Advance

Your Knuckle Head Friend

Doc
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Apr 18, 2005 06:04AM)
Nikodini,

all personal opinions are respected. Thanks for your statetement... it's always educational to see how strangers perceive other people's behaviour. Negative or positive feedback make us learn.

You seem to share the same values with Alewishus about brown-nosing. I personally share the same opinion with Doc. In fact, in many ways I think the same like Doc. If you don't know the background of my relationship with Doc, I suppose that you can assume that I'm brown-nosing. It's unwise to jump to conclusions though... It shows your lack of perspective.

Your example with the FBI agent also shows how little you know about hustling and conning. Your limited experience makes you "find things funny". It's not your fault though; but you don't want to advertise your ignorance, do you?

And as Doc says, stirring get things moving and questions answered.

Doc,

feelings are mutual... (Bloody ****, I'm brown-nosing again :) )
Message: Posted by: Jay Elf (Apr 18, 2005 06:59AM)
Dear Yiannis,
Thank you for your information.
I can open the page but can't watch the demos. I don't know why.
Anyway thank you for your kindness, Yiannis.

Sincerely,
Jay
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 18, 2005 07:40AM)
It is true that advantage play is more head than hands stuff . I could name some of the very best Advantage Heads in the USA and they eat any card manipulators for breakfast, always have and always will. These guys travelled around the USA and sucked up the money like a sponge and left states dry. You will find them in Vegas with their pictures in the hall of fame and playing in the biggest cash game in town. Play in that game and expect to loose $5 million a year if your lucky.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: petersd (Apr 18, 2005 09:52AM)
Tommy,

You won't learn moves in the book if that's what you are looking for. It is very interesting though in other respects. It does go into a lot of advantage playing as well as a summary of moves that can be used for cheating although it does not explain the moves. I have been reading the sections on card counting and shuffle tracking which is quite interesting from a gambling perpestive. Does it have any magical applications. Well yes and no. If you plan on doing gambling demonstrations it will give a lot of knowledge about the different methods of cheating and advantage play. I don't consider advantage play cheating and neither do the courts unless you are using mechanical and or electronic devices. I is also food for thought about getting into and out of a move or sleight since this is what these guys have to be excellent at.

In a funny way, it gives you a lot of respect for what some of these cheaters have pulled off. Clever thinking and a lot of guts. It does show that scams get pulled off that you would think were impossible and for large sums of money. I guess this psychology gives merit to magical applications as well. It's the guys who are pros at the subtle things that make a difference and not necessarily the technique. This is something that you definately cannot learn from a book and is a definite skill.

All in all, I do not regret purchasing this book and find it to be valuable and I feel it has positive uses for magic. Although, if you are looking at how to do bottom deal then this is not for you.

I also have GPS but have not had time to view as of yet since I received them both on Friday and was reading the book in the small amounts of free time that I had. I can give a comparison of the two in a couple of weeks.

Dave
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 18, 2005 10:19AM)
By Advantage Play I mean what is just tuched on in GPS ie crossfire and best hand play. There are far more sophistcated methods than what is mentioned in GPS. The guys I speak of are masters at it. It has nothing to do with manipulation of cards and is not legal but impossible to prove in a court without a confession.

Thanks for the info on the book. I am interested in shuffle tracking but for pokeer and a single deck not for black jack and more than one deck. Does the book cover that? Shuffle Tracking is legal in any game as far as I know as it is based on mere observation of cards and how they are shuffled.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: petersd (Apr 18, 2005 01:20PM)
Tommy,

I goes into a fair amount of information on shuffle tracking related to Black Jack and reference a book shuffle tracking cookbook which Forte explains as being an excellent book on the subject.

The book explains advantage play as card counting, slug tracking, shuffle tracking, and bet spreads. It is not illegal as has been confirmed by previous court cases, although you can get brushed if caught. If the guys you are referring to are experts, then they would certainly know the in and outs of doing it to not get caught. The book does go over this.

I found these topics to be interesting and eye opening at that.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Larry Barnowsky (Apr 18, 2005 02:16PM)
Steve Forte's new book shows if you want to cheat a casino, you'll probably be more successful if you work with a crew. Having others to misdirect the dealer and the pit boss makes the scam less detectable. I was surprised how much of the cheating depends on having others help you (including often the dealer wittingly or unwittingly) and to a lesser extent on the skills of a mechanic.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 18, 2005 02:34PM)
Thanks very much for the info Dave.

I do think you miss the point of the guys I refer to. They are not card counters shuffle trackers or any of that but experts in exploiting the advantage of collusion in playing poker. They are experts who do not use manipulation of cards to gain an unfair advantage but by knowing each others cards. The information is like insider info and dealing on the stock exchange to these guys only because they are expert at using it to their advantage.
Having a puppet is no good if you do not know what strings to pull and when. These guys are puppet masters and have been pulling the strings for decades. These guys are not low profile they are the gun shumokers of poker.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: petersd (Apr 18, 2005 04:00PM)
Tommy,

There is many ways to cheat and the non sleight of hand methods sometimes are the best. They can be hard to detect and prove.

Dave
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 18, 2005 04:56PM)
I knew an old pool hustler ounce who won more money than the world champion. He said the world champion can beat me 9 times 10 but it is not about who wins the most games, it is who wins the most money that tells you who is the best.
There is only one way at the card table to measure the best way: Who has got the most chips and how did they get them! You can be Doc , Forte, Scott and Erdnase rolled into one but if you are not getting the most chips, you an’t the best.

Such is life.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Nikodini (Apr 18, 2005 05:12PM)
I still fail to see what the point of this thread is... other than tooting your own horn. Steve Forte's email is on his website and you can ask him how he got so good. Wanna hear my take on it? He has a lot of "friends" who are cheaters and he learns the moves from them, and then he betrays their confidence (like a true confidence man) and divulges their methods and makes some serious cash in the process. ($200 for a book?! gimme a break) And, the kicker is, the cheater friends still idolize the guy! Gotta love this business model.

Yannis, you're making it look even worse for yourself. "It shows your lack of perspective" Huh?! Perspective, in your case, is pretty narrow.
Message: Posted by: emeprod (Apr 18, 2005 05:26PM)
Well, Steve doesn't need anybody defending him and how he became knowledgeable of gaming protection and advantage play; but, it might be wise Nikodini to adhere to the old adage: "'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." You clearly are speaking of something about which you have no knowledge.

You might actually research the subject a little, in this case, Steve Forte, before you provide a "take" on such subject. Just a thought...
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 18, 2005 05:29PM)
"Steve Forte's email is on his website and you can ask him how he got so good."

You think he will give an answer. Well you go and ask him and let us know what he said. please.
Message: Posted by: Elknase (Apr 18, 2005 05:43PM)
What a thread!

;)
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Apr 18, 2005 06:32PM)
Nikodini!! :)

You are really so, adorable...
Message: Posted by: Nikodini (Apr 18, 2005 07:05PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-18 18:26, emeprod wrote:
Well, Steve doesn't need anybody defending him and how he became knowledgeable of gaming protection and advantage play; but, it might be wise Nikodini to adhere to the old adage: "'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." You clearly are speaking of something about which you have no knowledge.

You might actually research the subject a little, in this case, Steve Forte, before you provide a "take" on such subject. Just a thought...
[/quote]

That old adage should be advice to real cheats. And if you all are such huge experts on Steve Forte, what's Steve's real last name?
Message: Posted by: Larry Barnowsky (Apr 18, 2005 07:22PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-18 18:12, Nikodini wrote:
($200 for a book?! gimme a break) And, the kicker is, the cheater friends still idolize the guy! Gotta love this business model.

I have the book and it was worth the money to me. I have medical textbooks that cost $300 each and certainly not as enjoyable to read.
Message: Posted by: DaveM (Apr 18, 2005 07:42PM)
Whenever there's an interesting thread from Doc, and I personally find his commentary very interesting, it ALWAYS seems to get obscured by the wannabes sucking up.

It always seems to come down to "Well, I know more about cheater X than you do...so take that!". Along the lines of an above post, neither Doc nor Steve need the wannabes defending them.

There IS something called a "Life". Most people have one.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Apr 18, 2005 08:14PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-18 18:26, emeprod wrote:
Well, Steve doesn't need anybody defending him and how he became knowledgeable of gaming protection and advantage play; but, it might be wise Nikodini to adhere to the old adage: "'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." You clearly are speaking of something about which you have no knowledge.

You might actually research the subject a little, in this case, Steve Forte, before you provide a "take" on such subject. Just a thought...
[/quote]

Don't bother man, we won't allow logic around here! :)
Message: Posted by: Craig Krisulevicz (Apr 18, 2005 09:38PM)
Yeah Doc, you got a kick out of that one.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 18, 2005 10:13PM)
“And if you all are such huge experts on Steve Forte, what's Steve's real last name?”
The point is we are not expert on Steve…what ever is name is. That is why we are guessing how he got so good. If we were all experts on him then the question would not have arisen. If you were here to help rather than hinder you might tell us the name if you know.

Also: Those making snide comments might want to point to one relevant comment they have made themselves on the topic before they criticize others.
Message: Posted by: Nikodini (Apr 18, 2005 10:23PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-18 23:13, tommy wrote:
“And if you all are such huge experts on Steve Forte, what's Steve's real last name?”
The point is we are not expert on Steve…what ever is name is. That is why we are guessing how he got so good. If we were all experts on him then the question would not have arisen. If you were here to help rather than hinder you might tell us the name if you know.

Also: Those making snide comments might want to point to one relevant comment they have made themselves on the topic before they criticize others.

[/quote]

Steve's just an email or a phone call away:

SLF Publishing LLC
9850 South Maryland Pkwy
Suite A-5 #354
Las Vegas, NV 89123
(702) 616-0256
steveforte@casinogameprotection.com

He's not hiding his contact info... they're right on his website. Why waste time/bandwidth/keypresses speculating?!

[quote]
On 2005-04-18 20:42, DaveM wrote:

There IS something called a "Life". Most people have one.

Dave
[/quote]

Dave, so why are you wasting it here in this thread? Tryong to show-off how much better at "life" you are?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 18, 2005 10:57PM)
Nikodini

I would love to speak to Forte but it is not that easy. SLF Publishing LLC is no more than his publisher. Now and again he will give an interview. I did ask him a question through a member of casino staff in such an interview but could only ask a relevant question, which had to go through a veting procedure before they let him see the question. You have point if it was that easy but it just is not, as far as I am aware. Doc simply wants to know if there is teaching books that forte studied that magicians might know of that he is not aware off. It seems to me that no one knows here. It is a fair question to ask of card experts if one admires Forte. If Doc could simply pick up the phone and ask him I am sure he would. This Café is about helping each other, if you do not think that, what are you here for?

Tommy
Message: Posted by: halcon (Apr 18, 2005 11:20PM)
Nikodini, chill man! let people exchange thoughts and ideas. that's what a forum is for.

Halcon
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Apr 19, 2005 02:01AM)
To Whom It May Concern

I know of many ways of how Steve got good and I also went through all of Steve's gambling books so I do know what books he studied. No I couldn't go through each and every book but the one's that I were interested in I took my camcorder out like a spy and video taped each page. Yes, they all laughed at me for doing so but I got the needed information that I wanted.

Steve must have felt sorry for me at one point and time and gave me a soft cover book of a hard cover book that I was copying. Yes I brown nosed to get the information I needed but I got it. When learning or trying to learn something you have to be like my new friend Craig, he travelled all the way from his home town to visit and hang out with me to see Steve's stuff and to learn new things. I learned from him just as much as he learned from me.

Ya'll read my stories but who are the one's that's travelling to learn; the true seekers of knowledge. I think if you ask Craig I'm not as hard and tuff as some may think that I am. I just don't want any of you getting hurt in the process if you're seriously contemplating on doing this as a livelihood.

I'm Learning Too

I don't have all the sense, I want to learn too. Ya'll magicians have very valuable information that I need to learn in order to better myself and I want it at any cost. Don't you think that I'm learning new stuff that Tommy is now talking about to Petersd? I'm learning from both of them. If everybody would join in and add their two cents we might get $1.00 which is 100% of new information.

This forum is like a gambling spot were we can all learn from each other if we just give each a turn to speak what they know to be true but like all gambling spots there are knuckle heads that you wish wouldn't come out but they do but we can still learn from them of what not to do and what not to say.

You know why we can't learn? We can't learn because the top guys want to stay at the top and want to keep all the secrets from us so to leave US LITTLE GUYS WHERE WE ARE. I like where I'm at and I'm always going to be for the under dog or the little guys because I just like hanging out with them because I have more in common with them then the so-called upperty ones. I guess I'm a sucker for common folk.

Respectfully

Doc

P.S. Nikodini I beg of you to listen to what I'm about to say...Magician's has more knowledge about trickery than the Casino owner's and if Steve is not telling you anything why would you think that he's telling the casino everything he knows? To answer this question, he's not. This information may be new to us but it's old news to Steve. I used to think like you regarding this but as I got better I learned how wrong I was.

To the Monitors and Staff

The words that I speak most ot the time goes over the heads of these here laymen but periodically I over step my bounderies of which I am wrong. Advice from unknown friends frequently step up to correct my errors as before telling me that I go a little too far on certain things and info. so on that note would you please LOCK THIS THREAD.

Thanks in advance

DOC
Message: Posted by: Elknase (Apr 19, 2005 08:50PM)
A cheat needs more than technical skill.

If you plan to cheat at poker, make sure poker-logic is second nature to you.
Make sure you fit the model of a poker player. Poker itself is a game of illusion. And good poker players have a feel for odds and playing patterns.
That is, if you play in fast company, you have to know how to play. You have to know your starting hands, pot odds, implied odds, sample space, the environment, the people. You still need patience, while you wait for one moment, or maybe not that night. Sometimes you loose, to maintain credibility but your concept dictates you to win in the long run. Subtle wins won't raise suspicion.

Stuff like "cleaning the house" doesn't work for me.

Usually, the locals at a poker place have advantage plays with the fishes passing by. That is, you might be cheated by fine-tuned collusion concepts before you get ready for whatever you had in mind.

Therefore you have to change the situation. If they know that you stay for more than one night in the same town, they probably won't fleece you the first night but want you to come back for more (This heavily depends on the image you project) Therefore, you only stay one night playing like a mediocre rock. If you win a pot, you subtly communicate the impression that you will come back tomorrow for sure. If you win some that night, you either played good poker or they trade you as a 1+n days fish. Whatever the case, you leave town.

Cheating has a lot to do with acting, planning and last but not least, knowing people. You need to project a certain image to be successful. You need to know the expectations and live into that image to meet the expected reality. This installs trust. Make sure you meet the requests of certain situations while reacting to the environment in a consistent way - but subtly disappointing its expectations. If suspected of cheating, lose some pots and play honest. Call it prestige advertising. And there's probably a next time where people sit down with you to play poker.

You know, everyone would cheat you if they could make 100 percent sure that no one catches them. That's why I never play cards with my grandmother.

;)


All the best to the pasteboard people.

- Elknase
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Apr 20, 2005 09:47AM)
Elknase,
very thoughtfull post. Well done mate!
Message: Posted by: petersd (Apr 20, 2005 10:02AM)
Elknase,

Your point is a good one. A good cheat should be able to hold their own and nail you when the opportunity is right.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Apr 20, 2005 07:45PM)
A "good cheat", now there's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one!


A.
Message: Posted by: Jaybs (Apr 20, 2005 09:59PM)
I hear Steve drinks 8 glasses of milk everyday and that's the reason why he got so good :)
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Apr 21, 2005 04:49PM)
How did Steve Forte get so good?

By putting in the time in both the practice and the education of the skills. And not only cards but dice as well. In my book Steve Forte is the man and the best I have seen doing his kind of work and material.

That is one of the great things about this kind of work. You can't get good at it without putting the TIME in. And learning. And there is no short cut.

Steve Forte is great because he INVESTED THE TIME it took to learn the SKILLS! And for me he is the BEST at what he does. And it is great and a real treat for me to watch an artist do what he does so well.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Apr 22, 2005 02:58AM)
Glenn Bishop, I as a full pledge cheat and one that knows a lot in this area about what he's talking about have inducted you into Doc's Gambling Hall of Fame. Why?

Your knowledge of cheating, The 3 Shell Game etc. makes you eligible and besides, just as you said you put in time and took no short cuts on getting there so I’d like to say that it’s an honor to know you.

Why I’m Inducting These Here Guys

Everybody in the NBA is not signed up to do the exact same thing and neither are cardsharps.

Walter Scott in my eyesight wasn’t a professional, professional but he was a professional. Why? 1. Because he couldn’t Cold Deck and 2. Because of the standards of which I learned from the streets and by listening to ya’ll here magicians. As I see it we are judging all cheats by the standards of John Scarne and Steve Forte and this would make Walter an NBA player but not a Michael Jordan.

The Standards Are Wrong

When playing a game there are always exceptions to the rule like Michael and Kobe but the NBA is basically all average basketball players playing at the same level so likewise judging cheats should be based upon the same principle. So do a person have to cheat a person in order to be a card sharp? Technically yes because a cardsharp is an expert card cheater but I’m changing it to no.

DOC’S GAMBLING HALL OF FAME

If a person possesses the skill of a cheat but had no playtime doesn’t mean that he can’t do it if necessary and if a person can learn how to cheat from a person showing cheating moves then that person is a teacher of cheaters and therefore is a cheat. So on that note I’m inducting Darwin Ortiz, Andrew Wimhurst, Dennis Behr, Damien Neiman, Jason England, Paul Wilson, Richard Turner, Paul Chosse, Allen Ackerman, Glenn Bishop, Sal Piacente, Rod the Hop, Gary Plant, Ian Kendal, Jeff Wessmiller, Gary Plant, Gene Maze, Wesley James, Igor into Doc’s Gambling Hall of Fame. Those that I forgot to mention or induct I’m very sorry for not remembering.

I’d like to thank each and every one of ya’ll for helping me with my techniques and what the real thing is suppose to look like.

Your Friend

Doc
Message: Posted by: card123 (Apr 22, 2005 05:29AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-22 03:58, Unknown419 wrote:
Glenn Bishop, I as a full pledge cheat and one that knows a lot in this area about what he's talking about have inducted you into Doc's Gambling Hall of Fame. Why?

Your knowledge of cheating, The 3 Shell Game etc. makes you eligible and besides, just as you said you put in time and took no short cuts on getting there so I’d like to say that it’s an honor to know you.

Why I’m Inducting These Here Guys

Everybody in the NBA is not signed up to do the exact same thing and neither are cardsharps.

Walter Scott in my eyesight wasn’t a professional, professional but he was a professional. Why? 1. Because he couldn’t Cold Deck and 2. Because of the standards of which I learned from the streets and by listening to ya’ll here magicians. As I see it we are judging all cheats by the standards of John Scarne and Steve Forte and this would make Walter an NBA player but not a Michael Jordan.

The Standards Are Wrong

When playing a game there are always exceptions to the rule like Michael and Kobe but the NBA is basically all average basketball players playing at the same level so likewise judging cheats should be based upon the same principle. So do a person have to cheat a person in order to be a card sharp? Technically yes because a cardsharp is an expert card cheater but I’m changing it to no.

DOC’S GAMBLING HALL OF FAME

If a person possesses the skill of a cheat but had no playtime doesn’t mean that he can’t do it if necessary and if a person can learn how to cheat from a person showing cheating moves then that person is a teacher of cheaters and therefore is a cheat. So on that note I’m inducting Darwin Ortiz, Andrew Wimhurst, Dennis Behr, Damien Neiman, Jason England, Paul Wilson, Richard Turner, Paul Chosse, Allen Ackerman, Glenn Bishop, Sal Piacente, Rod the Hop, Gary Plant, Ian Kendal, Jeff Wessmiller, Gary Plant, Gene Maze, Wesley James, Igor into Doc’s Gambling Hall of Fame. Those that I forgot to mention or induct I’m very sorry for not remembering.

I’d like to thank each and every one of ya’ll for helping me with my techniques and what the real thing is suppose to look like.

Your Friend

Doc

[/quote]
What?...is Steve Forte going to be "inducted into Docs hall of fame"
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Apr 22, 2005 11:02PM)
Cards123 you should read between the lines more...Steve and Scarne has to already be in it.

Doc
Message: Posted by: Sonicstabber (Sep 3, 2005 02:26AM)
Something that some of you may find Interesting, Sal Paciente's Expert Card Magic DVD's are mostly Forte material and concepts. Steve showed them to Sal, who used them without permission ( supposedly) and that really miffed Steve off, for releasing the material to the magic community.

Eddie
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Sep 3, 2005 08:45AM)
In the DVD's Sal is constantly refering to Forte and gives credit to him. And the material, by the way, is first class!!
Message: Posted by: Sonicstabber (Sep 3, 2005 08:48AM)
Yeah, I agree the material is top quality. But Sal didn't get permission, regardless of if he gave credit. Same occurence kind of with the D'amico one hand second deal in Buckley's Card Control. Taught wrong, and not given credit to Carmen, until he asked for it. He didn't give permission for it to be used, so Buckley initially published it under a different context of author. With Paciente, he gave credit, but didn't get the initial permission for using the material, and gaining profit from it.

Eddie
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Sep 3, 2005 09:46AM)
Whit do you mean!?


A.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Sep 3, 2005 11:46AM)
[quote]
On 2005-09-03 03:26, Sonicstabber wrote:
Something that some of you may find Interesting, Sal Paciente's Expert Card Magic DVD's are mostly Forte material and concepts. Steve showed them to Sal, who used them without permission ( supposedly) and that really miffed Steve off, for releasing the material to the magic community.

Eddie
[/quote]

Yeah that's highly unlikely. Dunno who told you that one.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 3, 2005 12:01PM)
The ones I have of Sal are magic tricks exept for 3 card and some of them are good. From menory Sal says Forte showed him some tricks and explined some princple from magic from which they were based and Sal used some of the priciples from what was taught and made some tricks. Some, if not all, are old principles, so I can see Steve not liking that. Sal as a new one on poker moves but I don't know if that is out yet, but I would like to get it.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Sep 3, 2005 03:58PM)
[quote]
On 2005-09-03 12:46, Mr. Z wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-09-03 03:26, Sonicstabber wrote:
Something that some of you may find Interesting, Sal Paciente's Expert Card Magic DVD's are mostly Forte material and concepts. Steve showed them to Sal, who used them without permission ( supposedly) and that really miffed Steve off, for releasing the material to the magic community.

Eddie
[/quote]

Yeah that's highly unlikely. Dunno who told you that one.
[/quote]

How do you know?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Sep 3, 2005 04:42PM)
[quote]
On 2005-09-03 16:58, T. Joseph O'Malley wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-09-03 12:46, Mr. Z wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-09-03 03:26, Sonicstabber wrote:
Something that some of you may find Interesting, Sal Paciente's Expert Card Magic DVD's are mostly Forte material and concepts. Steve showed them to Sal, who used them without permission ( supposedly) and that really miffed Steve off, for releasing the material to the magic community.

Eddie
[/quote]

Yeah that's highly unlikely. Dunno who told you that one.
[/quote]

How do you know?


[/quote]

Well considering I know both men and they've been the best of friends for many years, I find it extremely unlikely. I'm interested to hear how this rumor came about.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 3, 2005 04:51PM)
I meant: I can "not" see Steve having a problem with Sal.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Sep 3, 2005 05:30PM)
Mr Z, I meant no harm - I was honestly curious. That's all.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Sep 3, 2005 07:24PM)
No worries bud. ;)
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Sep 3, 2005 11:25PM)
[quote]
On 2005-09-03 09:48, Sonicstabber wrote:
Yeah, I agree the material is top quality. But Sal didn't get permission, regardless of if he gave credit. Same occurence kind of with the D'amico one hand second deal in Buckley's Card Control. Taught wrong, and not given credit to Carmen, until he asked for it. He didn't give permission for it to be used, so Buckley initially published it under a different context of author. With Paciente, he gave credit, but didn't get the initial permission for using the material, and gaining profit from it.

Eddie
[/quote]
How do you know Sal was never given permission?? Do you know them personally??
Message: Posted by: Sonicstabber (Sep 4, 2005 03:26AM)
No, I do not know the men personally, but it was shown to me in an article ( don't remember by whom) a while back. I took it to mind, and I am assuming it was true, if it was published. If it isn't true, then Sorry if I started a rumour. But it seemed viable ( Since it's Magic Makers)

Eddie

EDIT: Excuse the Magic Makers Comment. I just dislike their ethics on buisness and quality, and respect for the art. that's me personally.
Message: Posted by: Count Lustig (Sep 4, 2005 08:12AM)
[quote]
How do you know Sal was never given permission?? Do you know them personally??
[/quote]
The assertion that permission was not given was made, very emphatically, in Mike Close’s review of the DVDs. In fact, it takes up most of the review. (This is undoubtedly the article that Sonicstabber is referring to.) If the assertion is untrue, blame Mike Close for spreading a false rumor.
Message: Posted by: emeprod (Sep 6, 2005 10:12PM)
I do indeed blame Mike Close. It's not the first time Mr. Close has made statements with no basis in fact. Steve and Sal are indeed very good friends and I know from Steve's statements to me that he had no problem with Sal putting his stuff on the DVD.

Sal is a top-notch guy, as well as a top-notch card man. Sal would be the first to tell you that he would not be where he is today without Steve's help. The rumor is just that...a rumor with no basis in fact.
Message: Posted by: Dicetricks (Jan 14, 2020 06:38AM)
In this thread there is the mention of a dice hold out tool in Steve's GPS book. I have the dvd's but I didn't see the dice hold out tool.
Does anyone have a picture of DOC's hold out tool that made it into the book?
Message: Posted by: HofzinsersFan (Jan 17, 2020 06:31AM)
Sorry Di tricks, I don't have what you're looking for but just wanted to thank you for bringing this thread to my attention, it's been interesting.
I had great fun reading this too:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100206124121/http://www.dicedealer.com/steve_forte_interview.htm

:bunny: