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Topic: The Hunter Shuffle (DVD)
Message: Posted by: Joe Mauro (Mar 12, 2005 08:10PM)
I saw an online video demonstartion for this ( http://penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=990 ). Am I wrong, or is this The Zarrow Shuffle with a different name?
Message: Posted by: scott b. (Mar 12, 2005 08:21PM)
To me it looks like a Zarrow without the covering. Which I think is a lot like the shuffle that is in Tarbell (Osterlind uses it on his thigh during his OBCS dvd).
Message: Posted by: Joe Mauro (Mar 12, 2005 08:57PM)
Scott, thanks for the referneces to comapre.

J.
Message: Posted by: S.Segal (Mar 12, 2005 09:18PM)
This is the Shank Shuffle.... which is a variant of the Sky Shuffle (I believe). Nothing new here...

S.Segal
Message: Posted by: SniperX (Mar 12, 2005 09:24PM)
Looks Shank Shuffle to me, maybe he should read some books before creding himself as creator.
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Mar 13, 2005 12:10AM)
While the mechanics of it are *NOT* original to him, take a look at his hand position and actual movements of the cards and hands.

While this should probably be titled something like "Hunter's shank shuffle", it doesn't look like he has completly ripped off the shank shuffle.

The hand positions and movements ect are actually pretty good at covering the downsides of the shank/sky shuffle, and AFAIK are original to Hunter.


Actually this isn't a shank or sky shuffle at all but the mechanics are actually I believe out of tarbell.... Gary Plants has the correct citation for this type of shuffle(zarrow without cover) in his booklet on the zarrow.
Message: Posted by: Jordini (Mar 13, 2005 01:48PM)
I stills ain't buying it.
Message: Posted by: 14allnall41 (Mar 13, 2005 03:12PM)
Steve Reynolds has some work on the Zarrow that looks remarkably similiar to this as well.
Message: Posted by: stannmaple (Mar 14, 2005 10:55AM)
Even if it is new, to a layperson, the zarrow is going to look EXACTLY the same. Why not just learn the Zarrow?
Message: Posted by: mdspark (Mar 14, 2005 06:10PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-14 11:55, stannmaple wrote:
Even if it is new, to a layperson, the zarrow is going to look EXACTLY the same. Why not just learn the Zarrow?
[/quote]

Exellent point. To me it just looks like a Zarrow Shuffle with a different postioning of the cards when being pushed together.
Message: Posted by: S.Segal (Mar 14, 2005 06:46PM)
Its not a Zarrow... this particular shuffle is known as the "Shank Shuffle" (which pre-dates Zarrow according to this thread).

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=62496&forum=2

S.Segal
Message: Posted by: Close.Up.Dave (Mar 14, 2005 07:02PM)
Another great product from Penguin Magic!
Message: Posted by: Close.Up.Dave (Mar 14, 2005 07:17PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-14 11:55, stannmaple wrote:
Even if it is new, to a layperson, the zarrow is going to look EXACTLY the same. Why not just learn the Zarrow?
[/quote]

That's the exact way I feel about "his" shuffle (and I think that a Zarrow looks 10x better than a Shank shuffle anyway). His Total Control dvd gives me the same feeling, if you're going to bother making this gimmicked card (which I suspect is just a corner short) then why not use a breather crimp? I admit they made a good argument in the ad, a breather crimp may lose it's feel through weather or your hand conditions. But, this all depends on how long someone uses their deck of cards. Many magicians only use a deck of cards for 1 performance and they toss it. I only use a deck of cards for 1-2 weeks, my breather crimp has no trouble keeping up. Why would you go through the trouble of using a different method (or even a gimmick) than a breather crimp if it works fine as is? If you do most of your card work in a sauna then buy his total control dvd.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Mar 14, 2005 08:37PM)
Martin Nashs's "Infinity" card isa diabolical method for accomplishing card control. You can even do it with a borrowed deck. Ingenious!!!!

:dancing:
Message: Posted by: Cardguy52 (Mar 15, 2005 12:48AM)
His Total Control would be great for someone just stating in card magic and is not comfortable with crimp work. For the pro, the same effects can be produced either a breather or infinity crimp.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Mar 15, 2005 01:11AM)
Yep, it's best to be a crimp chimp!!!!!!!!!!
:sun:
Message: Posted by: Ctgalex (Mar 16, 2005 11:43PM)
I guess Zarrow shuffle is so such cleaner than this one. This "Hunter shuffle" requires you handto cover the front of the deck while the other hand push the the halves together. But Zarrow Shuffle doesn't require all that.
Message: Posted by: JasonDean (Mar 17, 2005 02:30PM)
The Hunter Shuffle is no longer available at Penguin!
Message: Posted by: S.Segal (Mar 17, 2005 03:08PM)
Just noticed that too Jason... Kudos to Penguin for dropping this ripoff.

S.Segal
Message: Posted by: Randy (Mar 17, 2005 04:18PM)
This shuffle is actually the Oeink Shuffle. The real expert on this and the Zarrow is Gary Plants. Get his manuscript on the Zarrow which also teaches the Oeink.
Message: Posted by: Adam J (Mar 17, 2005 07:38PM)
Penguin's actually changed their promotion to include the 'Las Vegas Dice' instead of 'The Hunter Shuffle DVD'. I'm kind of dissapointed since I don't know any false shuffles, but I'm atleast glad I won;t be recieving a product that was ripped off from the original. Can anyone suggest a DVD or Book that might teach me other things besides a false shuffle? Right now I'm looking into the Zarrow Shuffle DVD, but any suggestions will be helpful. Thanks :)

Adam
Message: Posted by: S.Segal (Mar 17, 2005 08:03PM)
Good question Adam... You could look into getting Hollingworth's Drawing Room Deceptions or Eric Anderson's AH-HA. In both books, they go over their in the hands false shuffles as well as some other cool routines.

S.Segal
Message: Posted by: stannmaple (Mar 17, 2005 08:47PM)
I think the Zarrow is the way to go. I've actually heard good and bad about the Zarrow DVD. I learned the shuffle from Bill Malone on the loose volume 1 along with an incredible effect using the shuffle and about 6 or 7 other great effects! I would go for that if you're into cards.
Message: Posted by: Close.Up.Dave (Mar 17, 2005 10:26PM)
I would get Lennart Green 1-6 or Bill Malone on the Loose vol. 1 for some great false shuffles.
Message: Posted by: Cardguy52 (Mar 18, 2005 12:26AM)
Not to metion the Allen Ackerman Advanced Card Control Series.
Message: Posted by: e-man (Mar 26, 2005 02:05AM)
On one of the Allen Ackerman's Control series DVD's' I beleive Allen teaches the Hunter shuffle,and its called the Hunter shuffle!
Message: Posted by: Cardguy52 (Mar 26, 2005 03:29AM)
That's the G.W. Hunter shuffle. It's a wounderful overhand technique.
Message: Posted by: James Bateman (Mar 26, 2005 08:52AM)
I like the Lenert Green shuffle on his video, and the Heinstein Shuffle too - though it requires lots of practice.
Message: Posted by: Alejandro Peterson (Mar 28, 2005 06:02PM)
Stannmaple:
Try to find another source for the zarrow shuffle, the way Bill Malone perform it, is not the best in my opinion, because he use a top strip out, Allan Ackerman thought in Expert at the card table & every move have a lot of tips, you can also improve the Malone Shuffle with Card College book or Private Studies by Marlo or a lot of referneces such as Gay Plants booklet on te Zarrow Shuffle.
Message: Posted by: Cardguy52 (Mar 29, 2005 12:53AM)
Or you could pick up the Zarrow dvd put out by Meir Yedid.
Message: Posted by: Close.Up.Dave (Mar 29, 2005 08:26PM)
It's back! I figured they might have fixed the dvd so it is properly credited, yet Rudy Hunter is still claiming in the preview that it's the best false shuffles he's come up with. Is anyone else outraged?
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Mar 30, 2005 07:07AM)
They aren't going to re-master and re-stamp the whole stock of DVD's unless there was a defect that stopped you from being able to watch it.

It isn't like they can take all the DVD's shipping out and already made and just change the data on them...
Message: Posted by: Close.Up.Dave (Mar 30, 2005 10:19AM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-30 08:07, Daegs wrote:
They aren't going to re-master and re-stamp the whole stock of DVD's unless there was a defect that stopped you from being able to watch it.

It isn't like they can take all the DVD's shipping out and already made and just change the data on them...
[/quote]

Rudy Hunter is the defect. They messed up on this one and I think they should stop selling it completely, since they chose to resell it then you would think the least they could do is properly credit on the dvd.
Message: Posted by: S.Segal (Mar 30, 2005 12:54PM)
I thought the previous postings by myself and others shed some light on this rip off. It looked like Penguin had done the right thing by discontinuing the product but it seems like it is back. The new trailer is the old one with a few seconds of audio clipped out. Funny thing is, the audio that is snipped is, "It's the best false shuffle I have ever come up with..." Well, seems like Penguin realizes this is a ripoff but still thinks they should sell it. Maybe they are just trying to get rid of the stock they have. Either way it is unacceptable.

S.Segal
Message: Posted by: Mike Powers (Mar 31, 2005 02:12PM)
If you've seen Gary Plants do his take on the Zarrow (now available as "Gary Plants on the Zarrow Shuffle") you'll know that you cannot tell the difference between the false shuffle and the real one. I watched him vary the shuffle among the Zarrow, the Oeink and a real shuffle and I honestly could not tell the difference. Beautiful work.

There were only 100 manuscripts printed. I just checked his site atwww.thecardplant.com and it appears that it's still available.

Mike
Message: Posted by: Gary Plants (Mar 31, 2005 11:35PM)
Mike,

Thanks for the nice comments. A slight correction however...the FIRST 100 copies were signed and numbered. They are long gone. However, I do still have the manuscript for sale, just none of the numbered ones. I don't want any misunderstanding on the manuscript.

Gary
Message: Posted by: Review King (Apr 1, 2005 12:17AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-01 00:35, hofzinser wrote:
Mike,

Thanks for the nice comments. A slight correction however...the FIRST 100 copies were signed and numbered. They are long gone. However, I do still have the manuscript for sale, just none of the numbered ones. I don't want any misunderstanding on the manuscript.

Gary

[/quote]
Gary, put your website in your profile so folks can go there.
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Apr 1, 2005 01:39AM)
Heh I thought he was trying to be semi-incognito...

Anyway back on topic:


I think you are all being too hard on this guy and his DVD.

Yes, This definatly suffers from incorrect/non-existant crediting...

However, it is more than likely that he either came up with this himself or worked out details after learning the basics.

This is not the case of someone taking an effect and blatently copying it without regard to the creator.... this isn't even an effect.

I mean, this is on par with teaching a strike double lift and saying you came up with it... obviously you didn't and it's in poor form to say that you did, but that doesn't nessacirily hurt the actual technique, nor does it really hurt any specific creator as the DL is widely known.

This is miles different than "Ghost Kings" or any other number of *actual* rip-offs... in this case it is just a bad case of no crediting, not really ripping off.


So go light on this guy, he actually makes that shuffle look decent which I haven't seen many do.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Apr 1, 2005 02:46AM)
Gary, thanks for getting us on track!!!!
Message: Posted by: S.Segal (Apr 1, 2005 09:14AM)
Daegs, check out this thread and Nik Mikas' post near the bottom.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=107788&forum=111&22

S.Segal
Message: Posted by: stannmaple (Apr 1, 2005 07:53PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-28 19:02, Alejandro Peterson wrote:
Stannmaple:
Try to find another source for the zarrow shuffle, the way Bill Malone perform it, is not the best in my opinion, because he use a top strip out, Allan Ackerman thought in Expert at the card table & every move have a lot of tips, you can also improve the Malone Shuffle with Card College book or Private Studies by Marlo or a lot of referneces such as Gay Plants booklet on te Zarrow Shuffle.
[/quote]
Hey, thanks for the advice. I might consider checking out these sources, however, I don't really get that into the move. I only use it occasionally. The way Bill Malone performs it may not be the best of the best, but it definately fools people and I'm not looking for my zarrow to fool magicians, but laypeople which it definately does. I know many people in this Café are into studying a "move" from every source they can get their hands on which is good, but I don't have the money for that and my zarrow has served me well. If I get a chance though, I will check out the other work on this shuffle particularly Gary Plant as I've heard it's the best out there. Thanks again
Dann
Message: Posted by: stannmaple (Apr 1, 2005 07:56PM)
Oh, I don't know if any of you saw, but there IS one quote on penguin crediting this shuffle:

"Rudy’s touches are brilliant! The Hunter Shuffle’s roots can be traced back to the “Shank Shuffle” that appeared first in print in Herophant#7. The original "Shank Shuffle" had one illustration and one paragraph describing what occurred with NO WAY of making it effective. Rudy Hunter’s handling and subtleties on this DVD make it a valuable contribution to the Magic Fraternity"
Message: Posted by: S.Segal (Apr 2, 2005 11:15AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-01 20:56, stannmaple wrote:
Oh, I don't know if any of you saw, but there IS one quote on penguin crediting this shuffle:

"Rudy$BCT(B touches are brilliant! The Hunter Shuffle$BCT(B roots can be traced back to the $BE4(Bhank Shuffle$B!&(Bthat appeared first in print in Herophant#7. The original "Shank Shuffle" had one illustration and one paragraph describing what occurred with NO WAY of making it effective. Rudy Hunter$BCT(B handling and subtleties on this DVD make it a valuable contribution to the Magic Fraternity"


[/quote]

Stannmaple, I originally mentioned this "credit" on the other thread... It was put on the site (multiple days after complaints), not on the DVD, to cover their ***.

Read more of what I said at the bottom of this thread:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=107788&forum=111&22

S.Segal
Message: Posted by: Furniture (Jun 9, 2007 12:50PM)
Hey guys, this is not a zarrow but applies the same principle.

the good point of this shuffle is that the order of the cards is really not altered. the zarrow needs a slip cut before to do this ;)
Message: Posted by: Jeff Corn (Jun 11, 2007 11:40AM)
True, but the Shank Shuffle doesn't have the top card cover. That cover, in my opinion, is what really sells the move and makes it work. I love the Zarrow Shuffle because it does look so clean. Another thing that makes the Zarrow work better in a true gambling situation is that the Slip Cut isn't needed, if you do the shuffle twice. Shuffling twice is pretty much required in all games.