(Close Window)
Topic: Manipulation Cards
Message: Posted by: Lukas (Mar 25, 2005 11:08AM)
Just woundering what cards do most of you use for manipulation? I bought some manipulation cards(don't know the make) and I think they are **** so I have now moved on to bee brand like Jeff McBride uses.

Lukas
Message: Posted by: Magic Monkichi (Mar 25, 2005 12:07PM)
Lukas,

I have used a wide variety of manipulation cards over the years including Neilson's, Burton's, Murphy's, Peter Marvey's, Juliana Chen's. At this point I am using the Murphy's cards for split fans, and Juliana Chen's for single card productions. Hope this helps.

Matt
Message: Posted by: ROBERT BLAKE (Mar 25, 2005 12:54PM)
BEE CARDS
Message: Posted by: GrahamFishman (Mar 25, 2005 01:09PM)
Wow Magic Monkichi you use just about all the cards that they make. As for me I have been using Norm Neilson's (which are great) However I am currently switching over too bee cards. I like the Bees for 4 reasons 1. they are a lot cheeper 2. you can find them almost everywhere 3. manipulation cards do not have the same snap as standard playing cards 4. I have found that they blend in with my hand better. I like Bee cards best when they are only slightly broken in. I do this by doing differnt kinds of shuffles springs etc.

Hope this helps
Graham Fishman
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Mar 25, 2005 02:40PM)
It was very interesting to stumble onto this thread today. I too have used Nielsen cards for many years. Unfortunately, the stock has changed recently and they are just not what they used to be. I too am looking into switching to another type of card and I am even considering going back to Bee cards (which I started with a long time ago). I think that the price of manipulation decks has gotten very high and the quality might not warrant the expense. Which kinds of cards to use for manipulation has been discussed several times on the Café and each time it correctly boils down to personal preference. The cards simply have to "feel right" to you. Some want thin cards, others want snapping cards, some want both. Given the recent change in Nielsen cards, I am in the process of trying out every deck out there and simply seeing how they feel to me. It's an expensive endeavor, but perhaps essential for the card manipulator. Unless of course you have already found your deck. Then, if you feel comfortable, there's probably no reason to fix what isn't broken. Opinions - both positive and negative - concerning manipulation decks & prepared cards should be invited to this thread. I think it will be interesting to hear what everyone has to say.
Message: Posted by: hugmagic (Mar 25, 2005 08:31PM)
A lot of the old timers used steamboats which had a back that was a cross hatched design of red and blue lines which matched well with flesh tones. Other have used Bee cards. In Buckley's book, he tell how to prepare the Bee cards by rolling them around a pencil.

Though I do not do manipulation, I have played with it. I found the regular manipulation cards were too soft for me to feel comfortably with. I like the snap of bee cards. I also worked with poker sized. Often (before the texas holdum craze caught on) you could find the recycled decks from casinos 2 for a dollar. Having worked many stages after contests, I have seen far too many Neilsen cards swept away. And if they were recovered, they were dirty and bent.

I know the old timers like Walt Cummings ( who taught Neil Foster) and Jack Pyle used poker sized bee cards.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Mar 25, 2005 08:49PM)
Yes, Arthur Buckley's pencil roll is, to me, a superior method to breaking in the cards, and I used it when I used Bee cards. It makes the cards even more supple than the Routined Manipulation technique/McBride technique.
Message: Posted by: magicjody (Mar 25, 2005 09:49PM)
I always use a fresh pack of Bikes, it is what I learned with and don't like the really thin decks.
Message: Posted by: missdirection (Mar 25, 2005 10:15PM)
I have a load of maip cards, unfortuneatly I find that they do not fan nicely, even with powder, so I'm at a loss of what to use at the mo I'm useing fanning cards with a linnin finish (their about 30 years old, I'm only 20). I would really like manipualtion cards with a linnen finish, but I don't know where to find any!!!! I got a nice bee deck mapualting cards though. they are nice.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Mar 25, 2005 11:10PM)
Missdirection: which brand of manipulation cards do you have?
Message: Posted by: cardone (Mar 26, 2005 12:02AM)
I use bee poker size and just break them in ... no powder, no scraping .....in about 2 days they are ready ...they have spring but are softer and the silicone coating is rubbed out a bit so I can get nice clean fans. I do not see the point with the manipulation cards ..I fyou get used to them then you are stuck with them. I tell every one that I know that is starting a card manip act... go with the bee and by breaking them in you get to practice .... later Cardone
Message: Posted by: hugmagic (Mar 26, 2005 10:30AM)
Neil Foster and Dale Salwak have always switched cards from a fanning deck before doing the split fans. It keeps the fanning decks in better shape.
Message: Posted by: Larry Barnowsky (Mar 26, 2005 04:02PM)
I use red Hoyle Professional Gambling Cards. These are poker size cards and are great for manipulation including split fans and singles.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Mar 26, 2005 05:14PM)
I also switch to various cards in my card routine. This way I am using the best cards for the next sequence I am doing. I find that some moves work better with new cards while others require cards that are worked in really well.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: kregg (Mar 26, 2005 07:17PM)
I like Norm's cards for split fans, Bee's for singles and bright patterned cards for fans.
Message: Posted by: missdirection (Mar 28, 2005 05:50PM)
[quote]Missdirection: which brand of manipulation cards do you have? [/quote]
I have lance Burtons, (2 pack) million cards (look like bee deck),norman nielsen and a three decks that are skin tone on the back. on top of that I have 8 packs of bicycle decks and 5 types of fanning cards. (not bad for someone who has just started)
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Mar 28, 2005 07:24PM)
Those are a lot of different decks, missdirection. I recently picked up a deck of Lance Burton's cards after all this time and you're right, out of the shrink wrap, they will not fan nicely. So they need a good powdering. After doing so, my deck fanned fine. The same was true for me with the Nielsen cards. They say the new ones come pre-powdered, but honestly, it's not good enough. How are you powdering them? Tossing the cards into a plastic bag with some powder in it and shaking the bag works well as does applying an even coat with a cotton ball (although the latter is more time consuming). If the powder doesn't work for you, you might try waxing the cards. Stevens sells a block of wax from UGM in Japan. I have never done this, but I have tried out another magician's waxed pack of cards and they fanned nicely. Very sticky though - the wax is very tactile, different than powdered cards or glossy finished cards (close-up cards). Hope this helps.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Mar 28, 2005 10:13PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-28 18:50, missdirection wrote:
[quote]Missdirection: which brand of manipulation cards do you have? [/quote]
I have lance Burtons, (2 pack) million cards (look like bee deck),norman nielsen and a three decks that are skin tone on the back. on top of that I have 8 packs of bicycle decks and 5 types of fanning cards. (not bad for someone who has just started)
[/quote]

Are you sure they are not Jeff McBride decks poker size decks? The Lance Burton decks I have are just like Norm Neilsen's except they seem a little more stiff. They are bridge decks.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Mar 28, 2005 10:20PM)
[/quote]
I have lance Burtons, (2 pack) million cards (look like bee deck),norman nielsen and a three decks that are skin tone on the back. on top of that I have 8 packs of bicycle decks and 5 types of fanning cards. (not bad for someone who has just started)
[/quote]

I believe the cards being referred to here as looking like a bee deck are not Lance Burton cards, but Million Cards, a Japanese deck that is poker-sized for manipulation and are the thinnest of all the ones I know of on the market. They are red diamond backed.
Message: Posted by: missdirection (Mar 29, 2005 04:28PM)
But I also have lance Burtons deck.

sorry for not being clear in the previous post.


[quote]Are you sure they are not Jeff McBride decks poker size decks? The Lance Burton decks I have are just like Norm Neilsen's except they seem a little more stiff. They are bridge decks.[/quote]


well they have lance Burton on the back, I just assumed that they were Burtons....... mabye I was wrong......
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Mar 29, 2005 05:29PM)
Well, maybe he has come out with a new deck I do not know about. So where can I get a deck of these cards?
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Mar 29, 2005 08:30PM)
Okay guys, here it is :

Lance Burton's deck is brown backed, bridge-sized with his image on the back.
The deck that has a red BEE-like design has nothing to do with Lance. It is called "Magician's Card," made by Millions Card, a Japanese company, I believe. These decks are poker-sized and are even thinner than the Murphy's deck. The entire deck measures at about 9mm thick. I believe missdirection posted that she has both.
I have both as well and, getting back to a subtopic of this thread, both need powdering to ensure nice fanning. Lance's deck seems easier to work with because the Million deck creases and folds too easily for my tastes.

wmhegbli -- I got my deck of Million Cards from Jimmy Yoshida a while back, but I believe cards4magic.co.uk carries them. You might want to check them out ( a bit pricey though).
Message: Posted by: Albert Tam (Mar 30, 2005 12:53PM)
I am also use Japanese made manipulation card named "Magician Card" for long time.
They are thin deck with index in 4 corners. Lance's deck is handle by Ton Onosaka's Japan Magic Land and he would also have the "Magician Card". Ton and UGM also made fanning thin deck which have 4 color in design.
The cards which Marco Tendo using is one of the kinds. They are narrow but a bit longer than normal card.
Most of the thin deck made in Japan have coating which keep card strength longer, and all the decks suppose have treated with fanning power.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Mar 30, 2005 01:59PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-29 21:30, Christopher Moro wrote:
wmhegbli -- I got my deck of Million Cards from Jimmy Yoshida a while back, but I believe cards4magic.co.uk carries them. You might want to check them out ( a bit pricey though).
[/quote]

Price does not matter when it comes to good quality materials. If they work well then I will pay the price. Anything to help the performance go well is priceless.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Mar 30, 2005 07:16PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-30 14:59, wmhegbli wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-03-29 21:30, Christopher Moro wrote:
wmhegbli -- I got my deck of Million Cards from Jimmy Yoshida a while back, but I believe cards4magic.co.uk carries them. You might want to check them out ( a bit pricey though).
[/quote]

Price does not matter when it comes to good quality materials. If they work well then I will pay the price. Anything to help the performance go well is priceless.

[/quote]

I agree to a certain extent. In my opinion, these cards do not perform so well -- high price or not. They are too thin for most moves, crease easily, don't fan so well. But I would recommend checking them out, especially for a guy such as yourself Bill, who is very serious about manipulation.
Message: Posted by: Nemic386 (Mar 31, 2005 11:09AM)
Are Bee's better than bikes? and why?
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Mar 31, 2005 11:33AM)
Bee decks and bike decks are made the same by the same manufacturer. It is the back design that bee has that helps conceal the cards while the 'peak' between the fingers. If you used bikes, the white border would show and not fool anyone.

Bee looks 'pinkish' from a distance. Some think this will fool the audience. To be safe if using regualar cards, paint the corners of the top few cards of the deck or packet flesh color or 'sand' color. This will hide. You cannot hold as many Bee cards, so additional 'stealing' will be reguired.
Message: Posted by: Nemic386 (Mar 31, 2005 11:40AM)
What is pinkish? the back or the face? the packs I have bought have either been black or blue backed or red- and I have a huge problem with them having the diagonal cuts on the opposing corners- do you find that the corners help or hender the performance- from a beginners point of view I mean
Message: Posted by: bojanbarisic (Mar 31, 2005 01:17PM)
Wmhegbli,
The deck they are tallking about I have seen in November last year on a magic convention and it was waxed. Very good for manipulations, poker sized deck. You can order it from UGM. It is called "Magicians Cards". Yamamoto from UGM gave me a deck to try it out and I wish I have bought couple more. It was ca. 3 Euros per deck on magic convention.

Best,
Bojan
Message: Posted by: Nemic386 (Mar 31, 2005 01:27PM)
Do you have a link to a site so I can check them out??? I'm willing to try anything
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Mar 31, 2005 02:28PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-31 12:40, Nemic386 wrote:
What is pinkish? the back or the face? the packs I have bought have either been black or blue backed or red- and I have a huge problem w/ them having the diagonal cuts on the opposing corners- do you find that the corners help or hender the performance- from a beginners point of view I mean
[/quote]

Pinkish is the color of the red back from a distance and bright stage lights. I will blend with skin color bette. Interesting, you use black and blue backed decks. They must be very nice to not comment what is sticking out between your fingers.

Painting the corners is as alternative to using sand color manipulation cards as Norm Neilsen's. If you want to use regular cards, then this is the only alternative outside of using Jeff McBride's cards or the newly mentioned cards in this string. If you are producing cards then the backs are not usually shown. It it is then a regular card is placed on the top of the deck to show the audience.
Message: Posted by: bojanbarisic (Mar 31, 2005 02:37PM)
Scan your palm and fingers and print it on photo paper, than cut it to card size and glue it to top 3-4 cards. This will match your skin well if you know how to calibrate your scener and printer. I am a graphic designer and I used this a lot when working with Aviator deck.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Mar 31, 2005 05:50PM)
Bojan,

I am also a graphic designer and have used the same technique for prerpping some cards of my own. I have also made up my own jumbo cards as well as jumbo card fans just by scanning in and designing the cards to meet my needs.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Brad Jeffers (Apr 1, 2005 04:23AM)
I have always used Bee cards prepared with the razor blade method taught in Ganson's "Card Magic by Manipulation" - an extremely time consuming process, but I like the end result.

The "Magician Cards" by Million Card can be purchased from Shaun Yee. They are expensive, selling for 21 Euros per deck. I bought a deck to try out because I use poker size cards and these are the only poker sized manipulation cards on the market (McBride's cards are poker size but are not really manipulation cards). I'll stick with the Bees.

Before there were any of the current manipulation cards on the market, Neil Lester used to make decks of thin cards by splitting individual cards and fitting together a thin front and a thin back, in essence removing the middle core of the cards. He used red Bee "wormback" cards. These sold for $100 per deck.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Apr 1, 2005 03:33PM)
Interesting you should mention the thinned deck by Neil, Brad Jeffers. I was just talking to him about them. And I just tried creating a thin card yesterday, using only the face layer and only the back layer. Unfortunately, they are like paper. They wilt and have zero snap to them. It was easy for me to fold or crease them by accident. Maybe I am removing too many layers, however, because I have heard a couple of people rave about Neil's thin decks.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Apr 1, 2005 05:36PM)
Are these Million Card's 'Magician Cards':
http://www.cards4magic.co.uk/acatalog/Manipulation_Cards.html
?????
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Apr 1, 2005 06:33PM)
Those are the ones.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Apr 1, 2005 07:22PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-29 17:31, missdirection wrote:
[quote]Are you sure they are not Jeff McBride decks poker size decks? The Lance Burton decks I have are just like Norm Neilsen's except they seem a little more stiff. They are bridge decks.[/quote]


well they have lance Burton on the back, I just assumed that they were Burtons....... mabye I was wrong......
[/quote]

Then why isn't Lance Burton on the back of these Million Cards?
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Apr 1, 2005 08:03PM)
Hi Bill - I guess there's still some confusion here. I addressed this in a previous post on page one: "the cards being referred to here as looking like a bee deck are not Lance Burton cards, but Million Cards, a Japanese deck that is poker-sized for manipulation."

missdirection was just listing the six different kinds she has:
1.) lance Burtons
2.) million cards (look like bee deck)
3.) norman nielsen
4.) three decks that are skin tone on the back
5.) packs of bicycle decks
6.) 5 types of fanning cards.

Forget that the two were even mentioned together and it will make sense. I think the quote above had some miscommunication in it and that contributed to the confusion. It was a non-sequitir answer to your question.

-- Chris
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Apr 2, 2005 12:01AM)
Thank you for clearing this up.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Apr 2, 2005 03:14AM)
Happy to. Let us know what you think of the Million Cards when you try them out. I'd be interested in your opinion!
Message: Posted by: Nemic386 (Apr 5, 2005 08:30AM)
They don't comment on the cards sticking out because they don't see them- I just use them for practicing my side steal
Message: Posted by: Scott Compton (Jul 9, 2005 03:55AM)
I have found that Cracker Barrel Restaurant sells an almost flesh colored deck of Hoyles that I use. They are a little stiff at first, but break in well and run about $3-4 each.

Scott Compton
Message: Posted by: Wizzard (Jul 11, 2005 08:52AM)
Bee, Hoyle, Tally-Ho and Bicycle. All quality cards right out of the pack. Fan well, look good, have a crisp sound!