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Topic: Pouches
Message: Posted by: aussiemagic (Mar 29, 2005 10:41PM)
Howdy,

I have been interested in doing a street show for some time but due to laws requiring permits I haven't had the opportunity to do so. It looks like I might be able to do a show in May. 3 shows each a 20 minute slot.

I love the cups and balls but rarely get to perform it because I normally do strolling or stage shows.

Obviously it is a great trick for the street, but I have one question. When you load from the pouch it seems blatantly obvious that you are putting something in the cup. I have Gazzos video on the cup and balls and I think Gazzo is great but I don't know about the loading from the pouch???

Kozmo even says on one of the Cellini dvds that he thinks people will catch on to the method if they watch you perform a second time. He said this when he was discussing his table. From what I have heard too, Kozmo does a chop cup routine as his closer, not the cups and balls...

Looking through the posts here it seems that using a pouch is a favoutite method among many performers. Do people really not notice that you are loading? I thought it strange too how Gazzo puts on the pouch just before he starts his routine. And, he continues to load after revealing some fruit. Seems so obvious... However, loading from your pockets like Cellini does on one of his dvds seems much more deceptive.

I would appreciate some feedback from "Pouch users".

Thanks
Simon
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 29, 2005 10:49PM)
I've posted a thread called "Final Load Logic," which you will find in the Secret Sessions after you have 50 posts.

I will PM you some information that helps.

So much of the final load sequence depends on how you direct the spectators' attention. My PM will explain this in more detail.
Message: Posted by: Zack (Mar 29, 2005 10:50PM)
LOL. I could tell you stories. I leave the pouch on all the time. For some weird ass reason, its completely psycologically invisible. People look up and down for where the melon could have come from and they just don't see it.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Mar 29, 2005 11:01PM)
You can't be worried about "the second time."

I load 4 oranges. When the first orange is produced, the final oranges is arriving under the cup. That is when they might start to look around. But by that time, I'm all done loading oranges.
Message: Posted by: Zack (Mar 29, 2005 11:20PM)
[quote]You can't be worried about "the second time." [/quote]

Words of wisdom!
Message: Posted by: Gazzo (Mar 30, 2005 12:05AM)
Just the other night a magician walks on stage and switches a one dollar bill into a hundred and he used a thumb tip but I can see that he has a fake thumb on it was so obvious I just don't know how he gets away with it.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 30, 2005 12:44AM)
Did he have four balls? Footballs, I mean, of course.
Message: Posted by: Gazzo (Mar 30, 2005 01:19AM)
Shut up you silly Billy.
Message: Posted by: kOnO (Mar 30, 2005 07:00AM)
I had a fake Thumb once, Lost it in the shuffle


kOnO
Message: Posted by: cstreet_1986 (Mar 30, 2005 07:14AM)
I think you always run the risk of being caught the second time... but don't worry about it. You're pulling a crowd and then letting them walk and hopefully getting another crowd.

Chase
Message: Posted by: chrisrkline (Mar 30, 2005 07:15AM)
I just did some busking yesterday and did one show for about 20 people, mostly teenagers and some kids and parents. I did the six load and hat load. You have four loads done when they see the first one. You then mess with the hat and one small ball for a while, and the last loads are done in a fury. My pouch is lower than the table. After I was done, the teens all wanted to see how the baseballs became expanded in size and they wanted to check out my table. I was standing there with my empty pouch; they saw me put the pouch on at the beginning of the routine. I had just done six loads. No one, and I mean no one, asked about the pouch. They were convinced that the loads came from "holes" in the table. What they see is not loads under the cups, they see more than one loads under the cups--unless you do just three loads. That is what they can't figure out.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Mar 30, 2005 08:05AM)
I wouldn't worry about the second show either....pouches have been used for years a lot of years...100's....the reason I talked about the table servant is its another way and I think more repeatable.....in my opinion....i do a chop cup with just 2 lemons and a big load...big fruit......thats how I end...and it works for me....

koz
Message: Posted by: BroDavid (Mar 30, 2005 08:12AM)
And even if some see it happen (not many will...) unless you are so clumsy that everyone sees it, or your presentation is so lacking in entertainment value, most will go right along with the show.

But if you sense that somebody really caught you and they are up front and you don't want to risk them spilling it.... just point to them, smile and say "good catch" and give a wink, and hold your finger up in front of your mouth in a "shhh" move. Now they are in on it with you, and won't tell a soul...until they need to brag sometime after the show. And by then you have the tip, so who cares.

BroDavid
Message: Posted by: bonehead (Mar 30, 2005 08:39AM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-29 23:41, aussiemagic wrote:
Looking through the posts here it seems that using a pouch is a favoutite method among many performers. [/quote]

That statement alone should convince you of the merit of using a pouch. Performers successfully use them, Magicians successfully come up with reasons why they can't use them, the logic, the reasoning, the excuses, all while real performers are filling their hats.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Mar 30, 2005 09:10AM)
I would love to use a pouch (really), but somehow it might not fit a tux? :)
What about a cumberband pouch?
Message: Posted by: Jim Wilder (Mar 30, 2005 09:11AM)
One can over analyze this from many angles. Most people spend more time analyzing than actually doing. One vital thing that, of all people, magicians seem to forget is that misdirection is key in the loading sequence. That is not intended to be critical, but seems a fair assertion. And more, typically misdirection is "naturally" built in by virtue of focus being maintained on the performing surface, not the cups or the pouch.

For open and surrounded performances such as on the sidewalk or at a festival, I find no better method to suit those needs than a pouch.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Mar 30, 2005 09:25AM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-30 10:11, Jim Wilder wrote:
For open and surrounded performances such as on the sidewalk or at a festival, I find no better method to suit those needs than a pouch.
[/quote]100% agreed!
Still some ppl are using servants or 'pouches' attached behind their table, that's NOT the same then wearing them, and unless one is a *Gazzo*, one should wear the pouch from the beginning of ones act, removing props out of the pouch, handkerchiefs, whatever is used..ropes, aso. to establish WHAT the use of the pouch is and WHY you wear it..

It simply is there to hold your props..and the final loads are not the issue for the specs..the pouch is a pocket worn to have ones props at hand..that is what it should look like to the specs.

The fact that Gazzo is able to put it in place just before he starts his C&Bs is another thing, no rule without exceptions..that guy could do whatever he wants, he's mainly an entertainer, he does use a bit of magic, but he IS an enetrtainer even without doing any magic..the magic is just the red thread when entertaining ppl, it's NOT the main thing...often we 'magicians' forget that..
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 30, 2005 10:53AM)
Steve Burton made a "formal pouch" that was designed for strolling magicians. I have one of the prototypes. Claude Crowe and I had a long discussion about wearing it. I agreed with his conclusion, which I post here.

The conjurers pouch is really an evolutionary development of the worker's pouch, such as the carpenter's apron. A street magician is a working man. So a pouch or an apron is perfectly acceptable attire for him. But a tuxedo is attire for the gentry or their servants. A belted pouch would be as out of place with this kind of attire as, say, a pair of rubber work boots.

The cummerbund pouch may or may not work for you. It can't be as open as a regular conjurer's pouch, because of the way it will make you look.

Now, for my own work, I wear a formal vest. I find that it offers many more opportunities for concealing work. it also fits my shape (round) much better. I have discussed my methods for working with a vest in this thread:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=108360&forum=37&12

The method is covered in my second post to the thread.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Mar 30, 2005 11:47AM)
I agree. I do not wear a pouch when I'm in a suit.
That is rare, however.

I usually wear a tux shirt, vest, bow tie, black pants,
..and rubber work boots.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Mar 30, 2005 12:22PM)
Bil Palmer
I did reread your description via the link you posted above..and if I'm not mistaken that was about how to get hold of the loads when wearing a tux.

Now, my main reason for using a pouch would not only be fetching probable loads, but also to have all the props at hand and ready..
Props like ropes, Chop Cup, Rubik Cube, coins, Hindu-thread-stuff (a couple), silks/TT and similar, maybe I would even have the Paul Fox Cups inside the pouch, IF I would do the routine.
So my main goal re using a pouch was more to have the *stuff* on the body all the time to get at it easily, I actually suppose I still would do the final loads out of the pocket, no melon of course :)
Message: Posted by: Zack (Mar 30, 2005 12:41PM)
These days tuxedo says "Waiter". that's why I don't have one. But I wear the pouch with a suit all the time on walkaround gigs. People don't see it. Its invisible. As magicians, we're fascinated by containers and suitcases and the like. Layfolk don't share this fascination. Many's the time I've commented on an interesting piece of luggage, only to get a blank stare.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Mar 30, 2005 01:16PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-30 13:41, Zack wrote:
But I wear the pouch with a suit all the time on walkaround gigs. People don't see it. Its invisible.
[/quote]Black trousers and a black pouch will work very well I think (makes the pouch less visible)...even probably with a jacket, just not with a tux..a vest though is surely the best solution, black trousers and a fancy vest..
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Mar 30, 2005 01:35PM)
Werner,
I'm still planning on being in CPH about the first week in June. I'll be the one wearing black trousers, black pouch, and a fancy vest.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Mar 30, 2005 01:42PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-30 14:35, Dave VanVranken wrote:
Werner,
I'm still planning on being in CPH about the first week in June. I'll be the one wearing black trousers, black pouch, and a fancy vest.
[/quote]Then I'll guarante you a big hat if you do decent loads :P
I'll be there saying hello and I promoise not to spoil your act :goof:
I don't promise to wear a tux though :)
Message: Posted by: BroDavid (Mar 30, 2005 01:54PM)
Everyone looks different in a Tux. Some look like waiters and some look like overstuffed penguins.

But some of us look maaaaavelous in our tuxes....;)

BroDavid
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Mar 30, 2005 03:55PM)
I had an interesting conversation with Jonathan Pendragon about tuxes a few years ago. He and Lance Burton are friends, but he wouldn't even try to pull off the style Lance has in his tux. I think he even mentioned "overstuffed penguin" at least once. That was when he adopted his double breasted jacket and leather trenchcoat look.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Mar 30, 2005 04:10PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-30 14:35, Dave VanVranken wrote:
Werner,
I'm still planning on being in CPH about the first week in June. I'll be the one wearing black trousers, black pouch, and a fancy vest.
[/quote]

You're going to Chen Ping Han in June?

Isn't that some place that Jay Sankey made up?
I, personally don't think you're really going there.
Message: Posted by: Gideon Sylvan (Mar 30, 2005 04:53PM)
When I use a pouch for a show, I put the whole show in it. I use a small pouch to, the Pouchers Pouch. So it is only logical that I have a pouch to the spectator it is where I keep everything.
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Mar 30, 2005 04:55PM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-30 17:10, Frank Starsini wrote:
You're going to Chen Ping Han in June?

Isn't that some place that Jay Sankey made up?
I, personally don't think you're really going there.

[/quote]

I wouldn't dream of going there... but I am going to Copenhagen, DK (CPH in airline speak)to debut my street act. Your pouch and dice cup will be my costars.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Mar 30, 2005 05:05PM)
Good luck and have fun!
Message: Posted by: aussiemagic (Mar 31, 2005 05:49AM)
Thanks everyone for your feedback regarding pouches. It was great to get so many people to reply. I guess I will maybe try out using a pouch for myself and see how it goes.

BTW, thanks to those who sent me a PM too.

Simon
Message: Posted by: atucci (Apr 4, 2005 02:28PM)
I second the thanks as it once again allows us to understand a little bit better about misdirection, timing and the need to practice before a live audience.
Message: Posted by: Paul G (Apr 6, 2005 11:13AM)
If you're not busking but working a parlor situation in casual clothes--would putting a pouch on just before the routine work as well as it does on the street? Is using a pouch in this situation just as credible as on the street or would using pocket or some other loading sequence be more appropriate? I recall Gazzo saying once that he wouldn't do the same loads if the group he was performing for was small. Does anyone else recall this? If your audience is smaller would you get more bang from no pouch, and using just pocket loads?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Apr 6, 2005 11:23AM)
Think about how appropriate pouches would be for what you are wearing. If they fit, no problem.

But close-up, I use different methods for doing loads. When you can get into the secret sessions, go to the thread called "Final Load Logic." You may have to use the search function to find it.
Message: Posted by: Zack (Apr 6, 2005 11:55AM)
Here's how I overcame my fear of the pouch. (Incidentally, I call it a "pouch" or an "apron" -- NEVER a "gibieciere") I was working a gig with a swing band. I was an avid swing dancer at the time, and since I wasn't on yet, I hit the floor with ahep kitten. We were dancing for a while, and the pouch became uncomfortable, and I said "Hang on a minute, let me take off my apron." She stepped back a few feet stared at me, and said "Why are you wearing an apron??" We'd been touch dancing, the *** thing was right up against her, and she hadn't noticed it. Its like a glass of water on the table--they just don't see it.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 7, 2005 07:20AM)
[quote]
On 2005-03-30 01:05, Gazzo wrote:
Just the other night a magician walks on stage and switches a one dollar bill into a hundred and he used a thumb tip but I can see that he has a fake thumb on it was so obvious I just don't know how he gets away with it.
[/quote]

You'd be surprised what people will and will not notice. My kid found my thumb tip in the drawer and wondered what it could be good for. I showed him a vanishing and reappearing dime. Even though he knew I had the tip, he was still surprised at the reappearance from the "wrong" hand.
Message: Posted by: vernon (Apr 7, 2005 12:08PM)
Just a thought and my two pence worth...
It has been said one should wear the pouch all the time so as not to draw attention to it upon getting into the C+B...some say it telegraphs where the stuff comes from.Me..I put I put it on when commencing the C+B and carry on.People ask constantly where does all that fruit come from, and also importantly how do I get it all under the cups and the hat...Surprisingly, when Im not sharing a pitch and doing back to backs I can be putting the loads back in the pouch and attract and edge..take the pouch off and lay it at the side...launch into the routine and end up with all this fruit on the table that the front edge has seen me load in and then wear the pouch,STILL they ask.
but then again I suppose its personal preference.
Just my two pence worth.
Message: Posted by: BroDavid (Apr 7, 2005 12:28PM)
Act as if it is something "special", and people will take note of it.

Act like it is "nothing" and people will react to it like it is "nothing".

Keep the banter going with them while you are putting it on. Don't turn putting it on, into an event. It should should happen in the "flow", as if it is nothing special. Then, since there is no break in the flow of your interaction with the crowd, the pouch will soon be totally forgotten, if ever noticed at all.

BroDavid