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Topic: Tony Giorgio
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 13, 2005 11:42PM)
What can you tell me about Tony Giorgio? I hear his name all the time when cardshaping work is mentioned but I can not find much about him. Has he any teaching material.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: emeprod (Apr 14, 2005 01:01AM)
Tommy: Tony put out a couple of manuscripts I believe. One of them was on the bottom deal and now sells for $300 or so since it is out of print. You might still be able to find one at elmagicshop.com. Tony also sold the Allen/Giorgio shiner a few years back and with the shiner he provided a manuscript on the use of the shiner. I don't know of anything else he has in print other than the columns he has written in Genii magazine over the years.

During the 90's he had a regular column wherein he discussed Erdnase and what he considered to be the real work. He would usually focus on a particular statement in Erdnase and then present his evidence as to why he didn't consider Erdnase to be a book about card cheating as much as simply a book on sleight-of-hand magic.

He's obviously very knowledgeable and has done the real stuff back in the mid-1900's, he just hasn't published much of anything to my knowledge. There was a Genii issue from 2003 or 2004 that did a cover-story on Tony and there's some interesting stuff in it. He's also done a lot of acting and, in fact, played a gangster in "The Godfather".

David Malek, who runs the elmagicshop.com, has been a protege of Tony's for years so I'm sure he has loads of stories to tell about Tony.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 14, 2005 03:27AM)
Emeprod

So that is him! I thought that was just an actor with the same name. Thanks for all the info. I understand that he did do some work at the card table and I read a little of what he said about my pal Erdnase, so I thought just maybe he might have some moves that could be better than Erdnase. That would interest me if he had, obviously. Anyway thanks for the info. The botton deal thing is some price! Is it something speacial apart from being rare?

Regards

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Mr.Tweed (Apr 14, 2005 08:28AM)
I thought Tony Giorgio was an actor playing the part of a magician playing the part of a cheat...?

Best in magic,
John Corey
Message: Posted by: Rennie (Apr 14, 2005 08:32AM)
Tony Giorgio aka Bruno Tattaglia stuck the knife in the hand of Luca Brassi in the best movie ever made "The Godfather". Great article about him in one of the Genii issues.
Rennie
Message: Posted by: Charlie Justice (Apr 14, 2005 10:08AM)
Yes. David Malek, of ELMAGICSHOP.COM, knew him well. David took me to the Castle back in 1990 and I was honored to have met Mr. Giorgio. We all had a few drinks and played around with a couple of effects. What a gentleman. He gave e some very valuable advice about my patter, of all things, that served me well and still guides me in my performances. I'm sure if you contact David he will be more than gracious to answer all you questions.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Apr 14, 2005 11:15AM)
Giorgio had one of the best close up "acts" I have ever seen combining his acting ability with the three card monte and he was an outstanding performer.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Apr 14, 2005 11:25AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-14 09:32, Rennie wrote:
Tony Giorgio aka Bruno Tattaglia stuck the knife in the hand of Luca Brassi in the best movie ever made "The Godfather". Great article about him in one of the Genii issues.
Rennie
[/quote]
I thought Sollozzo stuck the knife in the hand, Tattagila just held his hand there as the other guy came around on Luca Brassi. Sorry, not trying to derail the thread.

Vandy
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 14, 2005 01:06PM)
You guys seem to talk in the past tense, so is he still around? I am intrigued with his thoughts on the real work and Erdnase. If he is still about it would be interesting to get him here as a guest.

If it is not too impolite, may I to ask if he speaks with the authority of an expert with experience actually from the card table or is he purely a magician.

Regards

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Gary Plants (Apr 14, 2005 04:07PM)
He is still around.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Apr 14, 2005 04:25PM)
He currently writes columns on card table artifice for Genii magazine. He is around somewhere, but not at the Castle. He suffered with, I believe, throat cancer and has a very raspy voice. He does some incredible dice switches and card moves too.

He also deals in gold jewelery, swap meets, etc.
Message: Posted by: Lo-Key (Apr 14, 2005 05:10PM)
Seems to me the Castle could use a guy like Tony, The castle should get rid of some of the flakes now in attendance.
Message: Posted by: Rennie (Apr 14, 2005 05:28PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-14 12:25, Vandy Grift wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-04-14 09:32, Rennie wrote:
Tony Giorgio aka Bruno Tattaglia stuck the knife in the hand of Luca Brassi in the best movie ever made "The Godfather". Great article about him in one of the Genii issues.
Rennie
[/quote]
I thought Sollozzo stuck the knife in the hand, Tattagila just held his hand there as the other guy came around on Luca Brassi. Sorry, not trying to derail the thread.

Vandy
[/quote]
Vandy,
You know something you are right, he grabbed his hand and held it while Sollozzo stabbed it with the knife and then another nice gentleman strangled him from behind. And now Luca sleeps with the fishes..How could I make that mistake as I saw the Godfather more times than any other movie.
Ciao,
Rennie
Message: Posted by: S.Segal (Apr 14, 2005 06:54PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-14 18:10, Lo-Key wrote:
Seems to me the Castle could use a guy like Tony, The castle should get rid of some of the flakes now in attendance.
[/quote]
Agreed...

S.Segal
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Apr 14, 2005 06:56PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-14 19:54, S.Segal wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-04-14 18:10, Lo-Key wrote:
Seems to me the Castle could use a guy like Tony, The castle should get rid of some of the flakes now in attendance.
[/quote]
Agreed...

S.Segal
[/quote]
Do a search at the Genii Forum and see what you find.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 14, 2005 08:11PM)
Sorry to hear about his illness and I wish him well.
Looks like I need to get the Genii mags. Shame that he has not wrote a book as his work is well respected it appears from reading the above and other comments that I have seen.

Thank you for all your help.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Rennie (Apr 14, 2005 10:41PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-14 00:42, tommy wrote:
What can you tell me about Tony Giorgio? I hear his name all the time when cardshaping work is mentioned but I can not find much about him. Has he any teaching material.

Tommy
[/quote]
Tommy,
You want to pick up the May 2003 issue of Genii and you will learn a lot about Tony..
Rennie
Message: Posted by: Gary Plants (Apr 18, 2005 08:01AM)
Giorgio has a great article in the latest Genii magazine re: Walter Scott - The Phantom of the Card Table.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 18, 2005 08:27AM)
Hofzinser

Thanks I would like to read that. Can you get the Genii mag in the UK anywhere or does it have come from the USA.

Tommy

I am a fan and of magicians and in particular card magic. I am not a pro and I never saw this side of magic until I joined the cafť. It came as a surprise to me to find that you are all human. I mean I had only seen your public face and thought of you as supermen and never imagined magicians quibbled and squabbled with one another. For what it is worth I think it does the art no good to do this in public although it is interesting gossip.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: S.Segal (Apr 18, 2005 01:27PM)
Maybe we should ask Tommy... Was your original post asking about Tony the cardsharp/magician and his magic? Or Tony's personal life? Considering he asked this is the CARD MAGIC forum, I would assume the first question will be his answer.
S.Segal
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Apr 18, 2005 01:44PM)
Hi Tommy,

You can get a copy of Genii in the UK here.

http://www.magicbox.uk.com/prodcat.php/009/5/

Looks like we both be going for a copy.

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: Mar (Apr 21, 2005 12:42AM)
Yes, that is a great article about Walter Scott in the current issue of Genii Magazine.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Apr 22, 2005 03:48AM)
If any one can help me with this I'd like to see what he wrote on shiner work or read what he wrote about Bottom Dealing. I can't see a man who has been a real cheat speak as he spoke about Walter.

Doc
Message: Posted by: card123 (Apr 22, 2005 05:40AM)
Gorgio did move under fire.

Vernon mentions it in the revelation videos.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Apr 22, 2005 11:05PM)
John Scarne moved under fire too, right out the back window at least that's what I heard.

Doc
Message: Posted by: Mar (Apr 23, 2005 03:04AM)
Tony Giorgio was a top card and dice man during the 1950's and 1940's. He worked with one of the best hustling crews ever. In the hustling world this is common knowledge.

Nobody from the magic world or anyone whose name has appeared on the Magic Cafť has the card and dice experience that Tony Giorgio had. He quit to pursue an acting career.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 23, 2005 09:17AM)
Hi Doc

I think we need to read the full article ourself rather than second hand reported bits. I have not read it and keep an open mind. One can easily misinterpret what is being said.
I have read a little bit of it and it seems from that bit that Tony Giorgio is saying: "Going for the money" means: Doing it for a living in high stakes games...
I do not think Walter ever said that is what he did. You would know better than me. I have not gone into the history as I was more interested in the moves of Walter Scott. Likewise with Tony Giorgio I am interested in any moves we can learn.

Regards

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Charlie Justice (Apr 23, 2005 04:58PM)
I got this email from a friend of mine that may add information. I'm posting it here for your edification.

Dear Charlie:

I read some of the stuff you sent me about the posts on the Magic Cafť regarding Tony Giorgio. To question whether Giorgio ever went for the money is laughable. However itís understandable as every day there are new people coming onto the scene.

The truth is Giorgio has gone for and gotten the money so many times he makes any senator you can point your finger at look innocent and he stopped hustling in 1960. He was even in Havana, Cuba during Batista going for the money in casinos with the ďboysĒ backing him. He has hustled in every state, in the U.S. and Canada as well as Mexico. I know of no other person alive today that knows more about all facets of hustling than Tony Giorgio. This even includes carnival games and bunko games. If there is an expertís expert living today it would be him and even he says there are no experts. At age 81 he still switches dice better than anyone I have ever seen and though I have not seen them all Iíve seen most of them and most of them are dear friends of mine.

Still the moves are only 10% of hustling. The other 90% is about knowing when you have heat, when to move, and the list goes on and on. I once spotted a friend dealing 21 at a very well known casino when I used to live in Vegas. I cut into him and proposed we do a little something together. He said he was interested. We set up a time to meet so I could go over a few things with him and he never showed up. The moves were not an issue; however the possibility of going to jail apparently was.

Magicians are mistaken when they think for example - just knowing how to deal a second is all they need to know in order to cheat. Truth is the best hustlers in the world are top players on the square. If they canít cheat you, they will just beat you without moving. Cheating just expedites the process.

Many people think Giorgio is lying because he contradicts people like Vernon. However once you start learning about hustling then watch tapes of Vernon it becomes painfully apparent that Vernon knew absolutely nothing about cheating or hustling. He knew a whole hell of a lot about magic though.

Still other wonder why Giorgio has not put out a book or videos Ė the bottom line is thatís not what his generation is all about. You donít make videos and expose the way your friends make their living. He sees nothing wrong with putting out videos Ė even if you did know all the moves the truth is if you were in a game with a couple of top notch hustlers and they were cheating you Ė youíre out of luck.

Many people want to meet Giorgio and they are upset when he does not want to meet with them. How many times did I see a young magician go over to Giorgio when we were at the castle and show him a move, only to have Giorgio say it could not get the money, then to have the magician argue with him because the magician knew better. Giorgio stopped hustling before most of these guys were born. If he tells you it wonít get the money it wonít and if he says it will, then it will. Pick a game Ė any game and he can figure thirty ways to your one way to come at you.

People question what Giorgio says in the articles printed in Genii by posting on these forums. What they should question is why Giorgio has had a column for the last 15 years in the best magazine in magic and they are ranting online.

About Giorgio and the castle:

What used to be known as the magic castle was built by Jay Ose, Albert Goshman and Tony Giorgio. These men are the reason the castle was successful to begin with. Who else performed for free (literally hundreds if not thousands of times) just to get the place off the ground? Tony Giorgio. It was Tony Giorgio who brought celebrities into the castle. Instead of dropping names one or two should do it Ė how about Barbara Streisand? Is that a big enough name for you? Cary Grant used to give Giorgio Christmas gifts, one that he carries around with him today is a gold money clip with his name engraved in it from Cartier. Itís not the people he knows, it is the people who you know of, that know him personally. Sean Penn (arguably the best actor alive in America today) calls him Uncle Tony.

During the 60ís 70ís and even 80ís Giorgio was working in movies and TV. The Playboy club hired him as their gambling expert. People (and there are some big magic names here too) were so jealous of his success that they came to hate him.

A lot of the membership is mad at him because of the lawsuit he filed against the Academy of Magical Arts. If I were a magic hobbyist and member as are 99.9999% of the magicians who congregate there I too would have been upset. Most people go to their jobs (even so called professional magicians), make a living, and then want to come to the castle to relax and see magic and have a good time. To have a guy like Giorgio shake it up a bit and want to change things did not sit well with them.

But for a second put yourself in Giorgioís shoes. Here is a man that performs there (certainly not for the money) and they show him such disrespect. The short explanation is Ė he was performing for an audience in which some of the people were drunk. Because of some problems with a specific spectator, what she physically did to him and based on his 60 plus years of professional experience he decided to end the show.

There were eye witnesses who gave testimony on tape which corroborated Giorgioís side of the story. The castle said Giorgio was wrong and took action against him. To make another long story short Ė Giorgio was outraged at the way he was treated and thought he deserved an apology. The president of the academy (at the time) did come to Giorgio and apologize and admit the castle was wrong. The membership though had heard about what happened to Giorgio and he wanted the apology in the newsletter. When they refused to publicly apologize that is when Giorgio decided to sue them. All they had to do was apologize. And so began a law suit that technically Giorgio lost. However did he really lose? His lawsuit forced many changes at the castle for the better. Giorgioís posts on his web site and the uncovering of the filth at the castle forced a lot of changes that continue today.




Because of what Giorgio brought to light many well known and prominent magicians have left and are not coming back and the exodus continues. Think about how the magic castle controls the magicians. Itís not like the Improv or a well known comedy club. The performers are not really the stars, they are known as early and late show guys. Magician A and Magician B. The castle does not promote names on purpose because they do not want anyone getting big. Itís not Tony Giorgio appearing at the castle; itís the magic castle close-up room early show with the first magician who happens to be Tony Giorgio.

Heaven forbid the castle from promoting anyone or helping them become well known and respected. That would be terrible. Imagine if they did that, then you would have the general public wanting to break down the doors to get in. Not only that you would have the best magic talent in the world fighting it out to get to perform there - for free. Giorgio, Ose and Goshman tried to do just that. The castle could have been a really cool place and a haven for top notch celebrities and industry people. Now itís known in L.A. as the place that was.

And now to Walter Scott:

Walter Scott was a musician in a Hawaiian music band. After reading the transcripts that has to be the conclusion. I read the transcripts at Giorgioís home Ė after I was done he asked me what I thought. My first response was he was not a hustler. Giorgio shook his head in agreement. But how would you know that you might ask? How do you know someone canít do a good double lift? Answer that question then you will know the answer to the other.

Re-read the part about Ace Duce George and Jimmy Britt, Imagine Walter Scott as Jimmy and Carlyle as Ace Duce George, Scott was a demonstrator. Hustlers do not take what they know and parade it down Broadway like Scott did. To think otherwise is naive.

It is true at anyone alive can be fooled, but not over and over again, especially a guy like Francis Carlyle. Giorgio does not part with too many compliments. If he says Carlyle was with it, he was with it. Giorgio does not have many friends because he speaks the truth.

Scott talked a good game, but there are too many holes in the interview. You are also dealing with ego. Magicians must have held him in high regard, so much so that it went to his head. Magicians say, ďI gave him a good beating.Ē Hustlers getting together do not act that way toward other hustlers. Believe it or not they share information far more readily than magicians do.

I just got off the phone with a good friend of mine Ė he is a card and dice hustler in Milwaukee. The first night we got together he spend the better part of the evening explaining and showing me exactly what he did to get the money. He is only concerned about getting paid and making money, not about how badly he beat someone. Magicians talk about fooling one another. Hustlers talk about what works for them, and how they use it. They trade stories over generous bowls of macaroni.

There are also networks of hustlers. If you are a hustler in a particular area other hustlers will come to know you. The top guys are known all over the country. Word does get around. At one time if you asked a hustler in America if he had ever heard of Giorgio, Papoose, Sweet Potato, Frenchie the Hawk, and Frankie Guyardo among a long list of others Ė the answer would have been a resounding yes. It still exists today. I canít name the names, for obvious reasons but you get the idea. If Walter Scott would have been for real they would have known about him. There is no doubt about it.

Anyway Iím tired of this. That is why I donít go to the message boards. I think everyone has a right to their opinion and there are a few people on those boards that are with it. But in some cases itís like listening to high school studentís talk about the finer points of brain surgery after taking their final exam in health class.

Anyway, please say hello to your folks for me.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Apr 24, 2005 01:34AM)
Tommy I agree with you 100%. A wise man always listen.

Charlie Justice thank you very much for that insight.


Your New Friend

Doc
Message: Posted by: Charlie Justice (Apr 25, 2005 09:40AM)
You're very welcome.