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Topic: Marlo and vernon overated
Message: Posted by: sleight king (Apr 21, 2005 04:03AM)
Why does everyone love these guys. sure they revolutionised magic and invention of loads of principles but the bottom line is that there were not very entertaining. do we forget that our critics should be lay people not other magi. what do you all think?
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Apr 21, 2005 04:11AM)
Without Vernon and Marlo a lot of cardthemes/effects, and here I'm talking from a specs point of view, would never have existed
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Apr 21, 2005 04:30AM)
I agree. Whenever you see a spec's face after performing twisting the aces or triump (or any variation to it), think again. You'll realise how much Vernon did for magic. Same for oil and water, only I think it was Marlo who made that up.
Message: Posted by: DomKabala (Apr 21, 2005 04:32AM)
:bluebikes: I think that you should learn to respect those 2 pioneers...without them you wouldn't be able to use the name "sleightking" and feel right. Magicians were laypeople at one time and we are a "brotherhood" which in the dictionary is defined as "an association of men united for common purposes" a fellowship. I am proud to have been inspired by those 2 men. Entertainment is in the "Eye of the beholder". I'm sure many will agree.

:bikes:

<<<KRaZy4kardz>>>
Message: Posted by: eddieloughran (Apr 21, 2005 04:54AM)
Marlo was not a man who worked only for magicians !
He used to perform in the bars of Chicago and worked for a time in a magic shop.
How on earth do you get the idea that he wasn't entertaining.
Sure he didn't drop his trousers or empty ashtrys in peoples laps but that doesn't mean that he wasn't fun to be with. Made them laugh .

And who says that lay-people should decide who are great magicians.

BLAINE IS BEST !!
Message: Posted by: dom (Apr 21, 2005 05:23AM)
I can't believe what I am reading! Marlo and Vernon are the inventors of the most famous magical routines we currently use, almost each card effect makes use of one of their tecniques, ideas, inspirations, ect. Today's best magicians and entertainers (Ammar, Daryl,Malone) have been all fellows students of Marlo and Vernon. How can you say that they are overrated?
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Apr 21, 2005 05:32AM)
I don't know what to say... :(

Anybody calling himself for a *sleight king* might/should reconsider not only his 'name' but probably also a lot of other things, and all this before telling us how important, or rather in his terms, "unimportant" Dai Vernon and Ed Marlo where!

Sorry!, no slagging of ppl having other thoughts, I just wonder re *who* does make this judgement.....:kermit:

(Oh well, I presume, all these flawless sleight he does, he has 'invented' himself...)
Good luck re your career in entertaining any audience...
Message: Posted by: Hideo Kato (Apr 21, 2005 05:59AM)
There are performers, creators, historians, technicians, teachers, authors and much more in the world of Magic.
You only respect entertainers?

I respect people in every category who left us their great work.

Dai Vernon and Edward Marlo left us the basement of today's card magic.

Hideo Kato
Message: Posted by: sleight king (Apr 21, 2005 06:10AM)
Hello people I did start off by saying that marlo and vernon where technically and inventively brilliant. Granted. but would a lay person know from what they were doing that they where so well looked at in the magic community. tell you what some of the vernon revelations videos are the most boring to watch tapes I own. Oh I am not winding anyone up I am expressing my opinion and I wish other people would
Message: Posted by: Tom Wolf (Apr 21, 2005 06:13AM)
As my wife always says, "what ever".

Tom Wolf
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Apr 21, 2005 06:16AM)
Perhaps you might get better comments from those who knew those guys.

Overrated? By who? Both loved magic and both loved the cleverness that makes magic. Both wanted to improve the condition of magic by finding and discovering the best possible methods of making magic happen.

There are stories about the guys as performers and as people told by those who knew them. I only met Vernon once and did not get to meet Marlo, and so don't have much to offer in that department.

HOWEVER, there are café members who spent time around those guys.
Message: Posted by: sleight king (Apr 21, 2005 06:17AM)
Thank you for your wifes opinion. let me ask you who would your prefer at your function, vernon or tommy wonder for example to entertain the guests. sure I can appreciate that tommy wonders routines probable have connection with marlo or vernon creations but who would the spectators most enjoy?
Message: Posted by: Hideo Kato (Apr 21, 2005 06:25AM)
Why do you compare the one mainly a creator and the one mainly a performer?

Hideo Kato
Message: Posted by: Tom Wolf (Apr 21, 2005 06:28AM)
It has been my blessing to have had Eddie Marlo as my friend and mentor.

I have seen him working with non magicians and please let me tell you that they loved his "magic".

He had a warm personality and a twinkle in his eye when performing for non-magicians.

We all owe a lot to him and Vernon.

We do have magicians that have a warmer personality and ability to entertain.

I am grateful to the above for the wealth of knowledge that they shared with us.

Go Forth and amaze with what you have learned in our wonderful craft.

Tom Wolf
Message: Posted by: sleight king (Apr 21, 2005 06:34AM)
Thanks for the replies. What I am saying is that sure they are top of the tree for invention but why all over the forums and my personal view is that performance out ways the effect by a long way. So shouldnt the proffessor really have been a great performer not a great inventor. Anyone heard a Marlo or Vernon one-liner?
Message: Posted by: Skinny Fatts (Apr 21, 2005 06:52AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 05:03, sleight king wrote:
"sure they revolutionised magic and invention of loads of principles"

The statement is self-defeating. Revolutionizing magic in itself negates any chance of being overrated.

Onward,
Fatts
Message: Posted by: Steve Dela (Apr 21, 2005 06:57AM)
Your statment is slightly too crtical!

I perform a lot of vernon and Marlo effects and am doing well with magic.
To say they are over rated, is like saying Jim Steinmeyer is over rated. Just becuase he doesn't perform illusions does mean he doesn't deserve his place in magic history.

So no, none of the above are over rated IMHO.

In Magic
Steve Dela
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Apr 21, 2005 07:02AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 07:10, sleight king wrote:
tell you what some of the vernon revelations videos are the most boring to watch tapes I own. [/quote]I don't know re about the revelation video's, but I have almost all others of the series from Hans Zahn/Videonics re Dai Vernon...and they are not boring at all, in fact they are highly interesting and entertaining, just to hear him telling stories..
Even laymen would appreciate to hear him telling his stories, nobody else (speaking of 'magicians') could tell stories like him...
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Apr 21, 2005 07:07AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 07:10, sleight king wrote:
tell you what some of the vernon revelations videos are the most boring to watch tapes I own.
[/quote]

Well, good grief, the man was nearly 90 years old when those were made! What would you expect? Most folks don't even live that long, much less in an "entertaining" fashion.

Both Marlo and Vernon were excellent performers in their day. You speak of what you do not know. Might as well say George Washington is overrated, Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Martin Luther King, Muhammed Ali, Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Jim Brown, Pele... all overrated. I think not!
Message: Posted by: Pablo Tejero (Apr 21, 2005 07:07AM)
Marlo overated? Venon overated? Yeah, and boring people too, and bad magicians also. Indeed, who were Marlo and Vernon?

On the other hand, I have bought the last ultra cool dvd from elluzionestiz and hamlorzdsz, and am able to do the ultra-snake-pass. Cool, isn´t it?

(Ironic, of course).

All the best magic,

Pablo Tejero :bikes:
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Apr 21, 2005 07:38AM)
In our craft, each of us is expected to find our own style of performing and our own character etc for performing.

What we value are the tools and ideas that allow us to do things.

For example, does anyone here do a trick Houdini invented (okay other than the substitution trunk) ?

How about a trick Copperfield invented?

We do admire that there are great performers in our craft, and we also respect that there are those who invent the stuff we all do.

Now why aren't we also thanking others like Alex Elmsley and David Roth? These guys are still with us and could do with the gratitude
Message: Posted by: SDR (Apr 21, 2005 07:39AM)
Your basing an opinion around hearsay and a set of videos where the man could barely do some of the moves he invented. I think its great that everyone has been so polite in replying to you.
Message: Posted by: chrisrkline (Apr 21, 2005 07:41AM)
Sleight King seems to be saying that because we, magicians, put such an emphasis on the ability to perform for lay audiences over being able to perform for magicians or showing technical ability, that we overrate these two. They were brilliant technically, he says, and maybe decent performance wise, but nowhere near the top in that respect.

As Jonathon says, many of us do not know enough about how either of them performed for lay audiences, except second hand, that we are limited in what we can say, but I will add this. When we say that performance for lay people often trumps technical ability, we are saying something very complex. A great performance needs both a great personality, and also a great routine. While both Marlo and Vernon developed technically demanding routines, both developed routines that were about perfect for lay audiences. We don't revere them because of their ability to do second deals, but because they left us routines like Triumph. These routines, which we chatter about endlessly on these forums, move us not because of their technical difficulty, or because of their ability to fool any of us, but because they are so wonderful to perform for lay people. I suspect that both Vernon and Marlo were better with lay audiences then we imagine, but they both certainly understood lay audiences and their needs. We revere them because they gave us the tools to be better performers, not just at our local ring meetings, but in the restaurants, corporate hospitality suites, trade shows, on the streets, and even kiddie birthday parties. And sometimes we can use their material to fool a magician.
Message: Posted by: Steve Friedberg (Apr 21, 2005 07:46AM)
Sleight King...
Let me suggest that the definition of, and expectations from, a "performer" have changed dramatically from the time that Vernon and Marlo were in their prime until today. These guys created, and performed, magic that intrigued and delighted their audiences.

No...I've never heard a Marlo one-liner; ask Jimmy Molinari, Tom Wolf, Steve Draun, Bill Malone, Dave Solomon or others who spent time around him...and more importantly, ask them if as a magician, he was expected to deliver punch lines.

My guess is no: my guess is that in the time they performed, magicians like Vernon and Marlo were expected to amaze, confound, befuddle and delight. One-liners did not enter into the equation.

I'd suggest that you study and learn from what these men did ("standing on the shoulders of giants," if you will), and adapt their insights to your own performance style, whatever it may be. Sleights alone do not make the magician (see [i]Robert-Houdin[/i]).

Overrated? Nah...I'd suggest underappreciated.

Good luck.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Apr 21, 2005 07:46AM)
Wow, you didn't find Vernon an entertaining guy on Revelations??! I'm baffled. Granted, he was a bit to old to perform a lot of actual magic, but the man's stories, way of speaking and knowledge had me thoroughly entertained. Come on, that Max Malini story with the Pork chop was hilarious! He was that entertaining, to me at least, WITHOUT even performing much magic, so I can only imagine that personality combined with his technical skills...he must have been completely entertaining and charming to an audience. And if you know your history, you're aware that he did in fact work nightclubs, private parties, cruises, etc from time to time. I'm sure he must have been pretty entertaining to be paid to do these things.
Message: Posted by: jcards01 (Apr 21, 2005 07:57AM)
Before I joined the Chicago Round Table, I saw Ed Marlo perform behind a bar at a restaurant called the "Pickle Barrel". He was quite the character and the patrons had a marvelous time. He performed for years at a bar and it was his choice not to perform for layman anymore. He did what he wanted to do that gave him the most pleasure.

I also witnessed Ed performing at Schulien's Restaurant for people at a table and it was with things other than cards and it also was very entertaining to see.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Apr 21, 2005 08:10AM)
As an adendum, I should ask, who do you find to be entertaining?

Have you seen them perform live, or on video? I think it's a bit unfair to Vernon to count the Revelations tapes as "performance tapes".

Unfortunately, you cannot see Marlo or Vernon perform anymore, and the technology for making affordable videos wasn't to prevalent when both men were in their prime. Perhaps if you had some original footage of them performing for an actual audience back then, your opinion might be different.

My real concern isn't that you feel they're unentertaining, but rather, what you're basing that feeling on.
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Apr 21, 2005 08:11AM)
They were fun, both of them! And I know, I was with them. I was at Marlo's house at three in the morning, and I was with Vernon in a barroom at midnight, and with both of them in other places as well. I saw them do magic, heard them tell stories, and watched the faces of thier audiences. Believe me, they were loved! They captivated audiences in completely different ways, but captivated them none-the-less. Too bad you missed the opportunity to see them in action, even in old age - you missed a great lesson in magic, and a greater one in people skills. Here's to the Masters, Vernon and Marlo! They live thru thier students, and thru thier memories!

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 21, 2005 08:15AM)
“To be, or not to be: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them?”

Where Marlo and Vernon great entertainers from the “average spectators” point of view: that is the question:

Ask those who saw them entertain and let them tell you what the average spectators reaction was to their performance.

I unfortunately did not have the pleasure of seeing them perform for an audience.

Did you? If not, how have you reached the view that they were entertaining or not.

Jimmy gives us an excellent answer regarding Ed Marlo.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: card123 (Apr 21, 2005 08:18AM)
I have marlo's dvd but who's this vernon?

Does he have a dvd out yet? Where can I see him perform?
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Apr 21, 2005 08:28AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 05:03, sleight king wrote:
Why does everyone love these guys. sure they revolutionised magic and invention of loads of principles
[/quote]
You just answered your own question. And that is one of several reasons "everyone loves these guys"...
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 05:03, sleight king wrote:
but the bottom line is that there were not very entertaining. do we forget that our critics should be lay people not other magi. what do you all think?
[/quote]
Vernon was a performer for a very long time. In fact Hardeen (Houdini's brother who also booked acts) booked Vernon. Vernon performed in night clubs as a stand up in places like the Kit Katt Club of New York. In those days - you couldn't get booked in night clubs if the performer was a bad performer.

Vernon was also booked into the privet parties of the very rich by Francis Rockefeller King. The top party planner agent of the day in New Youk City. Not a bad professional contact. And not a contact that could have happened if Vernon was a bad performer.

I have seen Vernon on TV from the Tonight Show Staring Johnny Carson to others such as Merv Griffon. I remember his appearance on the Merv Griffon show he did the cups and balls and three card Monte. After the show I wanted to work on both those effects right away! I don't think TV shows booked bad and boring performers.

Marlo to. As Jimmy Cards Molinari has already stated. I have seen Marlo entertain lay audiences and he worked in bars and night clubs as a close up magician for many years. And he was great! In fact I remember in Chicago one half hour TV show that has one of the local news people as a host did a show about Ed Marlo. The Magicians magician.

They interviewed most of the magicians that were at places like the New York Lounge and they all had an Ed Marlo story.

Vernon and Marlo were great performers that retired from performing when they lost interest in it. And they gave a lot to magic.
Message: Posted by: Sean Fields (Apr 21, 2005 08:32AM)
Wow, I know how near and dear Marlo and Vernon are to all our hearts, but please, gentleman, let us take a look at this thread from a different perspective.

Sleightking, a new user, pops into the Café, and basically p!sses in the church of purists. Pay no mind, I suspect that our original poster is the ever dreaded troll. If that is indeed the case, why take the bait?

Sean
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Apr 21, 2005 08:32AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 09:18, card123 wrote:
.... but who's this vernon?

Does he have a dvd out yet? Where can I see him perform?
[/quote]You'll meet him one day..no doubt..
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Apr 21, 2005 08:35AM)
LOL yeah;)

hehe but I can se esleigh kings point btw.. I absolutely love marlo and vernon

but all he wants to say they r overrrated entertainers not overrated creaters..
they did soo much for the magic world I do agree butwhat sleightking wants to say is that there r better performers then marlo and evrnon... I think that Lepaul vernon and marlo r the greatest creaters;) I love their work
cheerio
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Apr 21, 2005 08:35AM)
[quote]... Sleightking, a new user, pops into the Café, and basically p!sses in the church of purists. ...[/quote]
How do we make this a better place? By treating each other in a better way.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 21, 2005 08:56AM)
On one of the Ed Marlos DVDs a similar question is put to Ed. (roughly from memory) :

“Some guys think your stuff is great, but not very commercial?” Ed: “It is just a matter of opinion”

I assume from this, that some respected card guys thought this. So I think it is a reasonable question, for them who do not know, to ask. I do not think people should be berated for simply asking a controversial question or having an opinion.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Apr 21, 2005 09:13AM)
Beside Tommy Wonder, there are few who both invent and present classics. Most of us tend to be stronger at one or the other. Vernon was a collector of ideas and offered us some great ideas on presentation. When I got to meet him in 87, he did the walnuts trick, and showed the wand-spin vanish, things he did very well. What I came away with was an understanding that the stuff can be integrated into one's persona and comes across as both organic and magical. I'm sorry I did not get to meet Marlo. The second hand reports of his magic seem favorable though. If you get to Chicago, you can ask the folks who got to see him perform.
Message: Posted by: jrandcc (Apr 21, 2005 09:31AM)
Vernon and Marlo created some of the most powerful effects known to the Earth. I think they created more original stuff than 90% of all others. The skeleton or the backbone of magic. There comes a point I think where all you can do it revolutionize other effects to make them your own. Theres a limit to the pure direct original material that one can actually think of.

A lot of vernon stuff has been variationed so many times that some people don't know where it comes fro. I think twisting the aces and triumph win. There have been literally hundreds of variations of both of them yet Vernon's original are more powerful. I can almost say that half of the dvds and books on the market have a variation off of a Vernon effect(usually triumph and twisting the aces). I don't think that its bad(cause there are some awesome versions) it just goes to show how important and influetial Vernon was.

Also the cups and balls and linking rings sprouted lots of others. I think Vernon's dvds really are amazing in that they show so much, and many people think that there are too many stories. I think the stories make it better, to see Vernon's point of view of all other people that also influenced many aspects of magic.

Marlo is a whole other deal.


Josh
Message: Posted by: entity (Apr 21, 2005 09:46AM)
I can't speak about Marlo's effect on non-magicians, as I never saw him work apart from a lecture situation.

On the other hand, I did see Vernon work, both for Magicians and Laymen. I even have video of him performing for laymen. He was charming, funny, extremely entertaining, technically superb and adept at handling people.

In his prime, I'd stack him up against any modern performer, Tommy wonder included.

- entity
Message: Posted by: chrisrkline (Apr 21, 2005 09:51AM)
Magicians have their own reasons for respecting others in our field. Sometimes we look to others because of how they help us to perform better, or because they have developed effects and routines we admire or use, or maybe because we like watching them perform. Unfortunately, for many of us, we have not seen enough (or any) of Vernon's or Marlo's performances to make this a central factor in our respect we have for them. We can listen to stories and learn to appreciate what they did for those who did work with them, or watched them perform. I can't think of anyone (although they probably exist,) though, who said that either of the two were the greatest performers. Many tell me that were quite excellent, however. They are both respected, though, because of their cumulative contributions in all areas of magic. But that respect is practical. It derives from what we get and can use from their lives. That is why understading history is so important.
Message: Posted by: Hideo Kato (Apr 21, 2005 10:12AM)
All these posts (except a few) are proof that Dai Vernon and Edward Marlo are not overrated. I am comfortable to know that they are really respected by many magicians (except ones who can't appreciate their great works).

I've just finished authoring a card magic book. I devoted one chapter with introduction of 14 greats in card magic together with their aphorisms. Of course Dai Vernon and Edward Marlo are in that chapter. Without respecting the greats who made foundation of todays magic, we can't enjoy magic with all our heart.

Hideo Kato
Message: Posted by: MrMagi (Apr 21, 2005 10:23AM)
Sleightking - how many times have you seen either of Marlo or Vernon perform? I hope its been many because judging either of these two without seeing them perform is not a fiar judgement. Re-watch Revelations 1 where Vernon spends MUCH of the discussion describing how magicians should be performing to entertain not to show how clever they are. Listen to his description of the ambitious card, how he pretended to perform moves and got the crowd involved, got them shouting and screaming that they had seen some false move when they hadn't, this is very entertaining to laymen. Try it and see. Also note that in his discussion on the AC that he says that he has left out many of the gags included.
Marlo would be a similar situation - but check out the cardician (book) for some of his gags, they include performing an overhand shuffle while remarking "Here is a shuffle I invented but many people are doing it nowadays" or doing a cards spring and saying "This is a russian shuffle - one card rushing after another". Another is to ask someone to cut the acrds and as they reach for them, push the bottom half over into the other hand(electric cut?) and say thanks, these are fun gags to perform and there are MANY more in the book
Message: Posted by: Alniner (Apr 21, 2005 10:24AM)
I don't like the music of Led Zeppelin, the Doors, or Black Sabbath. However, I give them their due respect to changing the face of music today. They were the influences of my influences. Thus I have to give credit where credit is due.

My view of both Vernon and Marlo could be seen as similar, except in this circumstance I am a big fan of Vernon and Marlo. They were gone long before I had a chance to meet them. I would do anything to have seen them perform live.

These guys were the influences for the cardicians of today, thus no, they are not overrated.

I can imagine the next thread...was Erdnase and Houdin overrated? lol.
Message: Posted by: DomKabala (Apr 21, 2005 10:34AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 11:12, Hideo Kato wrote:
All these posts (except a few) are proof that Dai Vernon and Edward Marlo are not overrated. I am comfortable to know that they are really respected by many magicians (except ones who can't appreciate their great works).

I've just finished authoring a card magic book. I devoted one chapter with introduction of 14 greats in card magic together with their aphorisms. Of course Dai Vernon and Edward Marlo are in that chapter. Without respecting the greats who made basement of todays magic, we can't enjoy magic with all our heart.

Hideo Kato
[/quote] Kudos to you Katosan, I am looking forward to sometime read your book. I was weaned on Vernon's books, authored by Lewis Ganson and as I matured I discovered Marlo. I consider them as mentors who spoke to me indirectly thru literature and I wished I could have met them. Because of books, all aspiring magicians can "meet" them now...gone but never forgotten.

<<<KRaZy4kardz>>>
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Apr 21, 2005 10:56AM)
Please lock this thread! Who do we slag next, Francois Dupont!
C'mon, assume they were over-rated, why does everyone still talk about them? I can't find a single reason why anyone would still - so it must mean that they weren't over-rated after all! Yeah, logic baby!
Why on that "other" board would there be a story circulating about how Vernon's thumb was replaced and cryogenically frozen: that's why he couldn't do the moves on the Revelation tapes. It's the same thing as the "Paul's dead because he's barefoot on the Abby Road album cover" story. These so called "urban legends" circulate around real Urban Legends!



A.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Apr 21, 2005 11:16AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 11:56, Alewishus wrote:... These so called "urban legends" circulate around real Urban Legends! [/quote]

More urban legends please. Back around 1990 there was one about me being dead. Magic is made from those stories and probably depends upon what makes those stories intersting.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Apr 21, 2005 11:30AM)
IMHO sleight king needs to do a little study of magic's history. A question like he posed comes from ignorance.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Apr 21, 2005 12:38PM)
I must admit that I cannot consider anyone as a magician, hobbyist of magic, or especially not a sleight of hand artist if they do not regard both Marlo and Vernon highly.

I know that there are a variaty of scientist considering Einstein or Pavlov to be wrong or at least scientifically unproven but none have ever told me that those gentlement are overrated. As Newton said " I am standing on the shoulder of giants" and that philosophy is so important that even today you can see it on the U.K 2£ coin.

Anyone who revolutionises anything cannot, by definition, be overrated. Not even if they have been surpassed afterwards. While I do believe that one can be a magician without ever truly performing, I do not believe that one could revolutionise magic without performing a lot. And to be able to perform a lot means that you are a rather good performer, otherwise no one would like to see you, right?

On the other hand, the methods and effects these two men created are inherently entertaining. Or is it only the latter generations who were performing them correctly?

Using the word overrated is a very serious thing, no wonder people are taking it as an insult. A correct way would be to ask how entertaing these men were and discuss about that. It could be that they were better creators than performers but it still doesn't justify your choice of words.
Message: Posted by: Alniner (Apr 21, 2005 12:39PM)
Pete, I agree completely. I just started reading Phantoms of that Card Table. I'm only about 40 pages into it, but there is some great history in there already.
Message: Posted by: DomKabala (Apr 21, 2005 12:57PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 13:13, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 12:30, Pete Biro wrote:
...A question like he posed comes from ignorance.
[/quote]You're too nice a guy Pete..
I would call it stupidity and lack of knowledge in general..after all I got a PM from him showing just that..
[/quote] I too rcv'd a PM from him and I suggested he PM everyone in this forum and not just me, I did not appreciate that he called me "one of those people"...Funny how all of a sudden he is silent...

<<<KRaZy4kardz>>>
Message: Posted by: another guest (Apr 21, 2005 01:03PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 09:18, card123 wrote:
...who's this vernon?

Does he have a dvd out yet? Where can I see him perform?
[/quote]

Are you kidding me?
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Apr 21, 2005 02:38PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-21 10:51, chrisrkline wrote:
I can't think of anyone (although they probably exist,) though, who said that either of the two were the greatest performers.
[/quote]

There are posts in this very topic that do just that. The one immediately preceding yours, for example.