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Topic: Ethics re-duh
Message: Posted by: Patrick Differ (May 9, 2005 11:19PM)
I've arrived at the thought that WHENEVER A question of ethics arises, such as "should I do Max's trick?" or "I don't own the book...can I still do the trick?" or "I've worked out a different method to somebody else's trick", "Should I try to publish my derivatives of Harry's stuff?"...etc...then the answer is simply "No, don't do it."

Pretty plain and simple, huh? No, don't do Max's trick. No, don't do the trick if you didn't buy it. No, don't do someone else's material even if you have a "new" method. Do something else, like go watch a movie or read a book, for crying out loud.

Things would be a whole lot easier and these types of discussions would be a whole lot shorter and less convoluted and bogged down with legal gobbledegook and the inevitable "How would magic grow?" arguement.

[i]"Llama los bomberos!"[/i] :hmm:
Message: Posted by: mvmagic (May 10, 2005 03:14AM)
I agree. Things like those get asked weekly, if not daily and then its the same thing all over again. Like watching reruns...

Now what does "Llama los bomberos!" mean? Bomb the llamas..? :D
Message: Posted by: irossall (May 10, 2005 05:31AM)
[quote]
On 2005-05-10 04:14, mvmagic wrote:
Now what does "Llama los bomberos!" mean? Bomb the llamas..? :D
[/quote]

It calls the firemen?
Iven :patty:
Message: Posted by: Justin2200 (May 10, 2005 11:37PM)
So what you basically said was, if someone has a question about ethics the answer is no. If they think it's ok then it's really up to them whether or not they want to go ahead with it. But I'm just curious..you think if someone doesn't own the book a trick is printed in, yet they know the trick, they shouldn't perform it? Just curious..I see no problem with it. But that's me. I'm not questioning my ethics, I'm just curious about yours.

Oh and the How would magic grow? argument is usually a result of discussion on exposure.
Message: Posted by: Patrick Differ (May 11, 2005 11:42AM)
To answer Justin2200...Pretty much.

I believe that rules of conduct (ethics) have developed to demonstrate and show respect for ourselves and for other members of our societies and our professions, and that they are strictly a matter of personal choice. Inevitably, the choices we make will affect ourselves and those around us.

Books, DVD's, lecture notes, videos, etc...they're all the same to me. I don't include private correspondence because it may contain privacy requests.

Magic simply won't grow until this foundation of "No" is understood. After that, the next step is to open lines of communication with the creators to proceed with performance.
Message: Posted by: Partizan (May 11, 2005 01:21PM)
So if I read a book I then cannot vocalise any of the ideas therin?

So if a font I did not pay for looks good in my design I must not use it?

If I learn a trick from an old guy in a pub and it turns out to be xdini's routine, then I must cease perfomance until remuneration is given?

Morals maketh a man. dither and vacillate like a fool! P.2005
Message: Posted by: nostrings (May 11, 2005 01:28PM)
But the real question here is what does Llama los bomberos mean..?




Adam
Message: Posted by: irossall (May 12, 2005 07:44AM)
[quote]
On 2005-05-11 14:28, nostrings wrote:
But the real question here is what does Llama los bomberos mean..?
Adam
[/quote]

It means "Call The Fireman" :)
Iven :patty:
Message: Posted by: Ollie1235 (May 12, 2005 12:52PM)
But how far do ethics go then? according to the logic given it isn't ok for magicians to teach one another effects or sleights unless they created the sleight or effect themselves.
according to the same logic, it isn't ok to lend books or to watch there dvds at a fellow magicians house. because when you think about it, theese things have the same effect as stealing, perhaps not so directly effecting the creator etc, but the same outcome non the less.

and what about libraries? are they unethicl aswell?

I just want to hear your thoughts on how far ethics should go.

ollie
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (May 12, 2005 12:57PM)
Half of what I knew as a kid I learned from "The Amateur Magician's Handbook" which I borrowed from the local library. So, since I didn't own the book, I'm not allowed to do any of the effects described therein? (Actually, I DO own the book now, I bought a copy on e-Bay. But what about that 14-year old?)

Also, I do an effect I saw John Scarne do in a beer commercial. Am I now destined to burn in magical Hell because I worked out my own handling for a trick I saw once over twenty years ago?
Message: Posted by: Justin2200 (May 12, 2005 01:12PM)
[quote]
On 2005-05-11 12:42, Patrick Differ wrote:
To answer Justin2200...Pretty much.

I believe that rules of conduct (ethics) have developed to demonstrate and show respect for ourselves and for other members of our societies and our professions, and that they are strictly a matter of personal choice. Inevitably, the choices we make will affect ourselves and those around us.
[/quote]

There is a difference between rules of conduct and ethics. Some people here seem to think they are the same? Rules of conduct apply to everyone. Ethics is based on what an individual believes is right or wrong.

I think Ollie hit this matter straight in the face. How many of you ethics-crazed magicians started out reading books in a library? That book was not yours andyou did not own it for more than 2 weeks, unless you broke the law and stole it from the library...How many of you make a living doing some tricks that other people showed you, or that you learned by watching a demo of it, or you borrowed a book for?

Like I said, ethics is different for everyone. I guess it all comes down to how tied down you want to be, and whether or not you want to spend a lot of money.

Oh..one more thing. The growth of magic will not come about by learning the word NO, if anything that will hinder it. Because I can't tell my friends who are interested in magic how to do a fricking pass, instead I have to tell them to go buy a $20 book, or a $50 DVD so someone else who didn't come up with the move can explain it to them.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (May 12, 2005 01:39PM)
[quote]
On 2005-05-12 14:12, Justin2200 wrote:

Oh..one more thing. The growth of magic will not come about by learning the word NO, if anything that will hinder it. Because I can't tell my friends who are interested in magic how to do a fricking pass, instead I have to tell them to go buy a $20 book, or a $50 DVD so someone else who didn't come up with the move can explain it to them.
[/quote]

Justin, you seem to be really struggling with this ethics thing. I've seen several post by you on this matter. Don't worry about it so much. You can do whatever you want. Just don't expect people to be very forth coming in regards to their work around you. You don't get help from magicians by accusing them of being too ethical and telling them to quit crying about work being exposed or stolen. Some magicians who post on this site have been ripped off and it's no f'n joke.

If you want people to help you and share things that will help you become a decent magician, you are more likely to impress them by showing how well you can keep your mouth shut. Not by getting into arguments about whose work you feel free to use and why. The ethics thing has been talked about so many times. Most of the issues come up from knock-offs, unpublished work and exposing methods to laymen. You can certainly work with your magic buddies and share common sleights etc. You don't discuss these things with everyone that asks "how did you do that" and you don't show the backstage view of your routines to laymen just to show how clever you are...But you can discuss things with your magic friends.

You say; "The growth of magic will not come about by learning the word NO"

I say; "The growth and protection of magic is not going to come about by learning the words "gimme,gimme" and "well, I like the way that looks so I'll just take it."

Vandy
Message: Posted by: Justin2200 (May 12, 2005 03:05PM)
I am not struggling with ethics. I just don't share the ethics of others because I think some people are overdoing it. I don't discuss secrets with laymen, believe me, I've been asked. And I don't plan on ripping anyone off. However, if someone asks me what a good move is to control a card, or how to fold a card, etc...I will show them the move, and then tell them where they can learn more about it, and where they can learn to integrate it into a routine. And what I was saying is you can't say no to everybody. I understand that you must say no to many people, but many aspiring magicians start when they are young. I will use myself as an example here. I am 19 yes, but I have no money to go out and buy the Royal road to card magic. Or card college. Many of these books that have been suggested to me. I would love to own a copy, the problem is I cannot afford them. I am looking for a job. However when I get that job, I guess magic will have to sit on the backburner because my insurance has a good chance of being about $250 a month, and add to that price the cost of gas. It's about $2.20 here right now. If I work full time I still won't have any money left. I don't know, maybe it's just the fact that I'm sick of everyone arguing over stuff like this, instead of just helping people who are truly interested in the art. We will have to agree to disagree, because I do not wish to make any enemies here.

Maybe we should change the topic here.

I've got a friend who has expressed interest in wanting to learn magic. I don't want to "expose" anything, if they aren't really that interested, how do I go about getting them involved if they have no money?
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (May 12, 2005 03:30PM)
Its cool Justin, you can share magic with your magic buddies. A lot of people have learned things directly from other magicians. Its more of a common sense thing. I don't think its unethical for friends in magic to pool their resources and learn together, along with sharing techniques etc.

Truly, there are some folks that are a little more sensitive to ethical issues, and some who I believe to be overly sensitive. Just use your sense, if you and a friend are working your way through "Royal Road", it's fine to share ideas and practice things together. It dosen't take much to find out what is old, what is new, and what is ripped off.

I can understand your frustration, I get sick of the arguments as well. But you must understand that there is some price to be paid. Either monetarily (by buying tricks online. A good way to learn tricks but a tough way to learn magic) or by earning the trust of a teacher or someone else who can help you. You have to earn that trust though. They same way you should make your friends earn your trust if you intend to introduce them to magic. I would suggest a local club (25 bucks a year). Talk to the people there and earn their respect and they will help you. Or try to earn the trust of a local magic shop owner if you have one nearby. I would guess that many of the people that won't dispense advice on this forum WOULD give advice to someone they knew and trusted.

Really though, I am trying to help you. You have been pretty vociferous on this topic, almost a devils advocate. Just be careful, there are people that can and will help you with your magic. Don't offend them or you will be faced with the prospect of getting advice from those that don't know what they are talking about.

Vandy
Message: Posted by: Justin2200 (May 12, 2005 03:38PM)
Well offending people was not my intention. So, I'm sorry. I received application information from IBM the other day, this summer I might consider joining them. And we do have a local magic shop. I don't know how long it's going to be around though. I heard it was closing, because one of my friends is good friends with the owner, and he told me. I dunno.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (May 12, 2005 03:46PM)
[quote]
On 2005-05-12 16:38, Justin2200 wrote:
Well offending people was not my intention. So, I'm sorry. I received application information from IBM the other day, this summer I might consider joining them. And we do have a local magic shop. I don't know how long it's going to be around though. I heard it was closing, because one of my friends is good friends with the owner, and he told me. I dunno.
[/quote]

Go to that magic shop and talk to them. Show them a genuine interest and show them that you have been working on something. Explain your financial situation. Unless they are total jerks (which I doubt) they will help you. They aren't just going to give the store away, but they will help you. They want to help you. Magicians are for the most part a very giving group and we all like it when someone shares our interests. Its takes time and it takes investment. Show them that you have invested some serious time or at least some serious thought and they will help I promise. Good Luck.

Vandy

P.S. Maybe that magic shop is looking for some part time help.
Message: Posted by: Patrick Differ (May 12, 2005 11:00PM)
And now the fire department arrives.

Good job, you guys. Good job, indeed.

My intent is to help those still interested in this issue to see it from just one viewpoint...that being my viewpoint. My view. "No. Don't."

And while I know that we don't share these view identically, I urge you to consider mine when face with your own dilemas. Say "No." Don't do it. Think twice.

Justin2200, I admire the path you've choosen. I wish the very best to you and yours. And remember...in this path we walk...sometimes we have to feel our way.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (May 14, 2005 10:14AM)
Let's turn the coin around. What if I watch a tape that I have payed for, and learn a new METHOD of accomplishing a certain type of effect, then I take the method, and create an entirely DIFFERENT effect out of it using the same method? Then I want to take my new effect and perform it on stage. Would that then be unethical?

If you say it is unethical, then the implications would be that we can't ethically use the Elmsley count, we can't ethically use the pass, or palming, thumbtips, out to lunch principal, etc., etc See what I mean?
Message: Posted by: Patrick Differ (May 14, 2005 12:41PM)
/Daffydoug...are we talking about the same thing?
Message: Posted by: Steve Dela (May 14, 2005 12:53PM)
Patrick, the one thing you said that is concerning me the most is

-------------
"I've worked out a different method to somebody else's trick"

---------------------------

your kidding me right! your saying, no you can't do it by comming up with your own method?

I am guessing leviations should have stopped at suspension x type devises... becuase it would be wrong to develop it.

knife thru arms should still have thick massive un-natural handles, becuase it would be worng to come up with a different method.


everyone should only do the french drop...because coming up with a new way of doing the effect is wrong! and we should burn in hell.

and I guess I should forget publishing my new double lift?

see what I am saying :)

In Magic
Steve Dela
Message: Posted by: Patrick Differ (May 14, 2005 05:01PM)
1. I just came up with a way to do "somebody else's" trick, so I should be able to do it.
2. Or more specific...I just figured out a way to do Healed and Sealed, so I should be able to do it...
3. Or more familiar...I just figured out a way to do Jonathan's Coins Across...so I should be able to do it.

1. No.
2. Nope.
3. Definately nope.

I'm not talking about sleights or fonts or here, I'm talking about tricks and routines...concepts, if you will. It reads to me that others are talking about sleights, and the sleights of which are spoken are PUBLISHED in books that are owned. I see huge differences. Huge, huge differences.

Partizan...as it turns out, I learned "Any Card at Any Number" from a guy in a bar. As it turns out, the method taught me was Barrie Richardson's exact method, method #1. Right out of Theater of the Mind. As soon as I put two and two together, I stopped doing the trick and bought the book and started reading it. To make myself feel like a better man? To ease my guilty conscience? What would you have done?

I've already said that I take this extreme position to provoke this community into thinking twice before "moving in" on others' material.

This is a line drawn in the sand. And I'm on this side of it. Where are you?
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (May 14, 2005 05:56PM)
I believe I'm on the side of moderation and common sense, and just plain ol' usin our noggin as well as our heart.
Message: Posted by: Patrick Differ (May 14, 2005 07:08PM)
Provoke.

Three out of four. Keep going and you have the four-bagger.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (May 15, 2005 07:44AM)
Eh?
Message: Posted by: Patrick Differ (May 16, 2005 12:28AM)
Four-bagger = home run, as in baseball.

I'm with you right up until you mention "moderation." I'd much rather go to the extreme.

The answer is still "No". I will consult with the originator and wait until I receive the "go-ahead." Where are you?
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (May 16, 2005 09:37PM)
[quote]
On 2005-05-16 01:28, Patrick Differ wrote:


The answer is still "No".
[/quote]

No on what issue, specifically?

Thanks,

doug
Message: Posted by: Patrick Differ (May 20, 2005 02:25PM)
Please start with a No.
Then work your way to a Yes.
Yes's, then No's, don't help.

Hey,
That's a haiku.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 20, 2005 05:01PM)
[quote]
On 2005-05-11 14:21, Partizan wrote:
1) So if I read a book I then cannot vocalise any of the ideas therin?

2) So if a font I did not pay for looks good in my design I must not use it?

3) If I learn a trick from an old guy in a pub and it turns out to be xdini's routine, then I must cease perfomance until remuneration is given?

Morals maketh a man. dither and vacillate like a fool! P.2005
[/quote]

1) Citation is good, quotation diminshes the value of the work to yourself and others. You paid for the thing, USE it.

2) I believe Adobe and other font sellers and typeface designers have something to say about that. Those that are in the freeware domain are there for free. those in the market are for pay.

3) If old so-and-so has published, and you want to do the trick, go buy his offering that contains the thing.

Anyone need a copy of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged?