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Topic: Magic for tips!!!
Message: Posted by: sjballa147 (Jun 24, 2005 12:54AM)
I went to a restaraunt and I offered my services and I got the job! My only problem is that the manager wants me to work for tips! That's not the same but less than servers get paid. That's all around sucks! Well what I want to know is how do I tell the lady I don't want to work for tips?
Thanks
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Jun 24, 2005 04:39AM)
Just say "no." Tell her that you are a professional. Explain that you work for pay, just as any employee or private contractor. If she balks, ask her if she would work only for tips, were the situation reversed. Do it politely, of course, but remind her that her wait staff, bar staff and even her buss staff all work for a wage plus tips.

Then mention that you will be happy to work for a portion of your standard show rate and will refuse tips so as not to damage her staff's income - after all, you are not there to hurt THEIR ability to make a living and you certainly do not want to alienate her staff, but to HELP them - and HER - make a better living.

Remember, as a magician, you are what amounts to an in-house promotion. You are a drawing card that will help customer retention and will hopefully draw new business as well. For that, you should be paid, like any professional.

If not, find another restaurant. There are lots of them out there. But please, don't work just for tips. It cheapens the profession and makes it that much more difficult for YOU to get paying work at other restaurants and bars in your area as well.

Hope this helps!

Lee Darrow C.H.
Message: Posted by: ShaunRobison (Jun 24, 2005 10:14AM)
LEE,
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Remember also, though, that you are not there to just make money for yourself or to stroke your ego.
You are there for the restaurant to make money.

One thought to keep in the back of your head if they suggest working just for tips.
If you negotiate a fee you might mention that IF someone does tip you you always cycle your tips. I give it back to the server or back to the restaruant when you come in on an off night.

Hope it helps and not just rambles
Shaun
Message: Posted by: sjdavison (Jun 24, 2005 10:22AM)
Sounds like the restaurant is trying to get a magician for cheap (obviously). Lee, very well put.

Apropos tipping, I have never been tipped, and I must say I do not want to be. I feel it makes a potentially wonderful, awe-inspiring, and sometimes once-in-a-lifetime event, into a tacky and unrefined 'hustle'. It would leave me feeling awkward, apologetic, and slightly 'dirty'; while the audience may feel a little hard done by - hardly an amazing experience.

That said, tipping in England is not a regular occurence, only really done in restaurants, whereas in America it seems very commonplace, so it possibly is not as unrefined there. Also, it is the 'norm' to tip in restaurants, yet people are very rarely, if ever, approached by magicians - they therefore do not know really how to act, and certainly don't know whether it is the done thing to tip. We magicicans obviously take advantage of the fact they do not really know how to behave, by giving them direction, and thus they 'play by our rules' (vital for a successful performance), yet personally I would not want to exploit this for a few pounds.


Well the lady and I already made a deal and at the end when I was leaving she said and you will be working for tips. So I left, I'm a man of my word so I'm going to go but I defonitly don't want to. After I work for that first day I'm going to say ok if you like that and I think the audience liked that then I will work for you but not for tips and ill explain about how I am an entertainer and should be paid much more than a waiter or waitress but ill take a fraction off my normal price and see what she thinks.

Should I say something else any ideas for me would be appreciated!!!!

Simon
Message: Posted by: Clark (Jun 25, 2005 01:40AM)
Lee told it like it was in this one for sure, bravo Lee.
Message: Posted by: The Mighty Fool (Jun 25, 2005 04:56AM)
I don't work for tips, but I confess, I've often wondered about the ups / downs of that sort of arrangement. I get a good sum in tips each night....and I split them with the server whose table it is (after initialy refusing that is). So is there anyone out there who DOES work only for tips?
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jun 25, 2005 05:31AM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-25 01:19, sjballa147 wrote:
Well the lady and I already made a deal and at the end when I was leaving she said and you will be working for tips. So I left, I'm a man of my word so I'm going to go but I defonitly don't want to. After I work for that first day I'm going to say ok if you like that and I think the audience liked that then I will work for you but not for tips and ill explain about how I am an entertainer and should be paid much more than a waiter or waitress but ill take a fraction off my normal price and see what she thinks.

Should I say something else any ideas for me would be appreciated!!!!
[/quote]Work for a few more days then just one..
Then tell the manager, that you enjoyed working there and that HER customers/guests loved to watch you, and some even mentioned they will soon be back with some friends as they want them to se you entertain them too.
Then tell the manager, that as much as you enjoyed to work there, you have to make a living, so you unfortunately can't continue working for tips.

Thank the manager for the opportunity to please her customers, but you have to move on to find a place/another restaurant that can offer a little more then just working for tips..
IF your work was good, she'll in any case know and she might be willing to make a more favourable deal..
Just present this politely, nobody works for *free* and tips doesn't even cover your expenses to even *travel* to the place..
Be carefull, think about how to *place* your wordings, but, this/simialar should do the trick...
Message: Posted by: wizardofsorts (Jun 25, 2005 11:37AM)
Get comment cards. On the nights you are working for tips leave the comment cards at the tables, (point them out to the patron or just give them to the patron) collect them after the table has gone, take them home, photo copy the best ones onto your letterhead (several on one page) and then take them to the manager the next day. Use them as leverage to keep the job and get paid to do your work.
Edd
Message: Posted by: sjballa147 (Jun 25, 2005 11:40PM)
Wizardofsorts great idea but where can I get or how can I make comment cards???
Message: Posted by: Joe Mauro (Jun 26, 2005 03:25AM)
I've never performed for money. I have worked, while in college, in restaurants that had entertainment. Balloon guys, strolling musicians, etc. These folks were tipped by customers. The staff never gave it a thought. I never heard anyone complain the balloon guy/gal was taking teir tips.

I'm not on either side of the tipe issue. I just offer my experiences working a few years in restaurants.
Message: Posted by: Laughing Otter (Jun 26, 2005 06:27AM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-25 01:19, sjballa147 wrote:
Well the lady and I already made a deal and at the end when I was leaving she said and you will be working for tips. So I left, I'm a man of my word so I'm going to go but I defonitly don't want to. After I work for that first day I'm going to say ok if you like that and I think the audience liked that then I will work for you but not for tips and ill explain about how I am an entertainer and should be paid much more than a waiter or waitress but ill take a fraction off my normal price and see what she thinks.

Should I say something else any ideas for me would be appreciated!!!!
[/quote]
I'm not quite understanding how you "made a deal" and only afterward discussed your pay.
Please elaborate.
Message: Posted by: sjballa147 (Jun 29, 2005 09:24AM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-26 07:27, Laughing Otter wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-06-25 01:19, sjballa147 wrote:
Well the lady and I already made a deal and at the end when I was leaving she said and you will be working for tips. So I left, I'm a man of my word so I'm going to go but I defonitly don't want to. After I work for that first day I'm going to say ok if you like that and I think the audience liked that then I will work for you but not for tips and ill explain about how I am an entertainer and should be paid much more than a waiter or waitress but ill take a fraction off my normal price and see what she thinks.

Should I say something else any ideas for me would be appreciated!!!!
[/quote]
I'm not quite understanding how you "made a deal" and only afterward discussed your pay.
Please elaborate.
[/quote]

Well she assumed I would be working for tips she didn't ask just assumed!!!!
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Jun 30, 2005 01:31AM)
Okay, the error was made in the initial negotiation and believe me, I've made it myself. When you agreed to work, your fee should have been the next thing to be discussed. It's an easy error to make when first starting out, but make it a point of knowing what you are going to make before you "turn your first trick" for the establishment - unless you are doing a "sample" set for them, as many magicians do, as a field test for the manager to see how well this sort of thing will work in their restaurant. Once you have done that, you should then talk money.

This isn't an easy thing to do, but if you can get your hands on Michael Ammar's tape on Negotiating Higher Fees (I think that's the title), you will have some methods for handling the discussion ready and won't be completely at a loss when it comes to talking dollars and cents (or Yen or Euros or whatever).

I admire your sense of honor in sticking to your agreement. I am sure that the restaurant will see the value in that and in your work for them. Once they do, you can probably re-negotiate for a fee. I hope so. You deserve one.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: sjballa147 (Jul 2, 2005 01:41AM)
Thank you very much!!!
Message: Posted by: Skip Way (Jul 2, 2005 08:27AM)
You can still find Michael Ammar's Negotiating Higher Fees tape at http://www.tmyers.com. It's also in printed format in his book "The Magic of Michael Ammar". I highly recommend both!

Skip
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 2, 2005 07:50PM)
Here is the problem as I see it. Show Business has 2 parts. We spend so much time getting the show right that we tend to forget that the BUSINESS part may very well have as much to do with us being able to eat as the show part.

Many people are uncomfortable talking about what something is worth. In sales this is called "asking for the sale". You have to be able to find a way to express, in palatable terms, what your services are worth to people.
Find a search engine and type in XEROX-PSS. This may be called something different now but it is the Features and Benifits selling course. This is not inexpensive, but it is worth its weight in gold. This is the standard everyone has used for sales reps for 30 years. We are salesmen. Either find someone to sell your show, or learn how to do it well yourself. This will teach you to do it.

Business my friends, business. How many times have we seen people we feel are less talented than we are doing better than ourselvs? Well many times it is because they are quite good at the business end of it.

Best of luck

Danny
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Jul 2, 2005 10:26PM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-02 20:50, Dannydoyle wrote:
"...the BUSINESS part may very well have as much to do with us being able to eat as the show part...."
[/quote]

Not as much, more.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jul 3, 2005 11:48AM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-29 10:24, sjballa147 wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-06-26 07:27, Laughing Otter wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-06-25 01:19, sjballa147 wrote:
Well the lady and I already made a deal and at the end when I was leaving she said and you will be working for tips. So I left, I'm a man of my word so I'm going to go but I defonitly don't want to. After I work for that first day I'm going to say ok if you like that and I think the audience liked that then I will work for you but not for tips and ill explain about how I am an entertainer and should be paid much more than a waiter or waitress but ill take a fraction off my normal price and see what she thinks.

Should I say something else any ideas for me would be appreciated!!!!
[/quote]
I'm not quite understanding how you "made a deal" and only afterward discussed your pay.
Please elaborate.
[/quote]

Well she assumed I would be working for tips she didn't ask just assumed!!!!
[/quote]

For anyone that has gotten a rest. gig, the post sounds like a phoney. Managers don't assume anything when offering work.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 3, 2005 01:05PM)
Larry...... your quite right my friend. I was incorect in saying as much.... it is indeed MORE thanks!!!
Message: Posted by: lowphat (Jul 3, 2005 02:45PM)
Chris, I tend to agree with you. sjballa147 I have a question, and please don't take this the wrong way, but what exactly did you perform for the manager when you went in? If indeed she did "assume" that you would be working for tips, could it be that you did not come off as a professional? In addition to what you performed, how were you dressed? Did she see how you did something? Etc, etc.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jul 3, 2005 05:48PM)
Eric, I've been doing restaurants for years and the descion maker has always been the GM ( general manager ). They always ask how much do I charge.
Message: Posted by: lowphat (Jul 3, 2005 06:17PM)
Yes, this has been my experience as well. I've never had the question, "How much do you charge?" not asked. What I was politely hinting at was that if you go into a restaurant looking like you're not a professional, you're not going to be treated like one. For example, if you're a teenage who goes in dressed in jeans and a t-shirt with a couple of packet tricks, I think it would be fair to say that someone could assume you work for tips.
Posted: Jul 3, 2005 7:19pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I should also add that just because you're a teenager doesn't mean you shouldn't be paid, especially if you're good at what you do. sjballa147, how long have you been practicing magic?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 3, 2005 08:44PM)
Chris, Eric, .....Man I never considered the post could be a phony. Makes me feel like an idiot for posting really good ideas on how to help the guy. But anyone with legitimate questions about selling themselvs should consult what I suggested.

The funny thing about the post is that even if he worked for what the servers make, in my restaruant that is exactly $2.65 an hour, and I pay high. If he works 4 hours a night that is the extra about $11.00 even worth the conversation? To point out you should be paid more than this per night is somewhat akin to pointing our you need to be paid more than the homeless guy with a cup down the block. I should have known. HA HA !!!!

Thanks for opening my eyes.

and if it is a legitimate post then

Good Luck
Danny
Message: Posted by: sjballa147 (Jul 3, 2005 11:34PM)
I'm not lying that's what happened I probably should've presented myself a little better than I did! Thanks for the honesty. It'll help me in the long run!