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Topic: Hypnosis For Children
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 12, 2005 05:54PM)
I got a call today from a cient in Charleston West Viginia today. He wants to book my Comedy Hypnosis Show at his elementary school. I was wondering if anyone has done hypnosis for children? I never have, I do exclusive corporate shows, however they were able to get me my fee of $2500 plus travel/lodging (which I find quite strange, but money is money).

Anyway, my question is: If you have done hypnosis shows for children, what were your experiences? I currently use Dave Elman's script and Geoff Ronning's EKG induction, any advice would be helpful if I should take this shoow or not.

Thanks!
Message: Posted by: RickDangerous (Jul 12, 2005 06:50PM)
Don't like to use hypnosis on children... that just doesn't feel right
(but $2500 sounds great ;) )
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 12, 2005 07:17PM)
I've been reading McGill's book, he has a section about hypnotizing children, he says that you should use their language...which makes sense, but I'd have to re-construct my inductions.

$2500 does sound great :)
Message: Posted by: Jordan Waller (Jul 12, 2005 07:48PM)
This is appaling
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 12, 2005 07:53PM)
Jordan, why do you say that?
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Jul 12, 2005 08:01PM)
I don't recall ever hearing of, or seeing any show to do with hypnotising kids...stay well clear.

Howard
Message: Posted by: Bob Baker (Jul 12, 2005 09:42PM)
The only way I've seen this done successfully was at a Cub Scout Blue and Gold Dinner 40 years ago. The performer had the good sense to use the dads as subjects, not the kids. The kids loved seing the fathers perform, but no children were hypnotized.

I don't want to even think about the liability issues that would be raised by hypnotizing children in a school show. If anything happened, even if seemingly unrelated to the hypnosis, your *** would be grass. Remember, children legally cannot give informed consent (which is implicit when an adult comes up on stage).

I agree with Howard. Walk away quickly, or offer them your mentalism show. It could end up being the worst $2500 you ever earned.

Bob Baker (M.D.)
Message: Posted by: J ack Galloway (Jul 12, 2005 11:02PM)
Heck, I cannot beleive your isurance would cover such a performance.

I know mine would not.

Do you have coverage?

Jack
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 13, 2005 12:21AM)
Jack, I am actually looking for insurence right now, who do you use (feel free to pm me). In my contract it says, "Josh London is not legally responsible for any accidents caused my either himself, volunteers, or the audience." That has helped me in the past when I did a high school show and a kid fell off the stage. Nothing happened to him, but the parents were ****ed.

I think I might walk away from this one because my Mentalism show is suited for adults.

Thanks guys.
Message: Posted by: Spinnato (Jul 13, 2005 03:22AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-12 13:54, joshlondon wrote:
I got a call today from a cient in Charleston West Viginia today. He wants to book my Comedy Hypnosis Show at his elementary school. I was wondering if anyone has done hypnosis for children? I never have, I do exclusive corporate shows, however they were able to get me my fee of $2500 plus travel/lodging (which I find quite strange, but money is money).

Anyway, my question is: If you have done hypnosis shows for children, what were your experiences? I currently use Dave Elman's script and Geoff Ronning's EKG induction, any advice would be helpful if I should take this shoow or not.

Thanks!
[/quote]
$2500? For an elementary school??? C'mon!
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 13, 2005 04:57AM)
Totally legit performance fee! It is a private school and private schools out here in san diego charge $10,000 per student per year. I also got it from All Time Favorites so the lead and fee are legit.
Message: Posted by: Spinnato (Jul 13, 2005 05:19AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-13 00:57, joshlondon wrote:
Totally legit performance fee! It is a private school and private schools out here in san diego charge $10,000 per student per year. I also got it from All Time Favorites so the lead and fee are legit.
[/quote]
I've been performing at private schools in New England, where tuition is $25,-$30,000 per year and none of them have EVER had a budge that large.

However, if in fact you are correct, I think I'd pass. Over the years I've been asked by middle schools to perform a hypnosis show, but always felt very uncomfortable putting kids in that age group "under".
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 13, 2005 05:28AM)
Middle school kids are great hypnosis volunteers. I've done a number of them and they've all been extraordinary shows. Think again about that market, remember anyone can be hypnotized, heck, a bird can too!

I am honored that I'm your hero, you'll see a book out soon.
Message: Posted by: mystic1 (Jul 13, 2005 06:08AM)
Among other things, you need a new lawyer.
Message: Posted by: Jordan Waller (Jul 13, 2005 10:41AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-12 15:53, joshlondon wrote:
Jordan, why do you say that?
[/quote]
If you realy need to ask this you have serious issues.

It is just morally wrong to do this.

Children are innocent beings that do not need humiliating or being psychologicaly messed up in front of a crowd of all their peers. Especialy in this day and age.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 13, 2005 10:50AM)
I am sorry that you feel that way. I don't have any issues, I've had friends do elementary school shows without any flaws, in fact they were the best shows he did. I am not there to mess up their minds.
[quote]Children are innocent beings that do not need humiliating or being psychologicaly ****ed up in front of a crowd of all their peers.
[/quote]
If you know anything about hypnosis (and I hope you do, because it sounds like you don't) you'll know that as a hypnotist I am just guiding them into the trance state. We've all experienced it...watching tv and "zoning" out our girlfrinds or wives, etc.

I'm a full time entertainer and I think it is disgusting when someone else says something like that when they seem to have no idea about the subject of hypnosis at all.

Have you read Ormand McGill's book? He says children are a wonderful group of people to hypnotize. They are energetic, animated, etc. making a good show.

I would suggest reading some stuff about hypnosis before you say that I have issues. This is a post and I asked a question. Yu gave your imput and I gave mine, so what?
Message: Posted by: Jordan Waller (Jul 13, 2005 11:55AM)
Josh, it seems to me that you have already made up your mind on whether to do this show or not. Your post appears to have been done merely to gloat about landing such a gig. Things like your references to the price tag of such an innapropriate gig and your inabillity to see someone elses point of view only serve to back this up.

Ormand McGill may very well have suggested this, so what!! He also wrote a rather nice section on Challenge Hypnosis an induction that relys on cutting off oxygen from the brain I beleive, ie. strangling your subject. How professional.

I seem to have hit a nerve with my second post, perhaps you know I'm right, perhaps not. However, I do not apreciate the tone of your post at all. I posted first, you asked me to elaborate which I gladly did. Your replied with the above.

I am not trying to discredit you, I am aware of what hypnosis is and I also have good values and morals. Doing this show is wrong.

Nuff Said!!!!!
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 13, 2005 12:07PM)
I agree nuff said. I might/might not take the show, I'm still thinking about it. sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

Also, the way mcgill "cuts off oxegen" is he used to have a bucket of ether on the side of the stage which a fan blew towards the audience, I do not agree with this.
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Jul 13, 2005 12:19PM)
I think the parents of the children would be outraged if this show went on without individual parental permission. If any child behaved in even a slightly different mannor after the show you'd have a huge legal case on your hands. I always thought there was an age restriction on these things if it was a performance rather than therapy.
Message: Posted by: Bob Baker (Jul 13, 2005 03:14PM)
Josh:

Quick question. If you were being asked to do the show for free, would you take it? I would guess not. As several have pointed out, the risks of working with children this age, particularly in our litigious society, greatly exceed the perceived benefit.

I understand that $2,500 is a lot of money to walk away from. There will be plenty of other shows....

Bob
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Jul 13, 2005 04:50PM)
If I was on the Board of Governers I would be questioning if this was the best thing that $2500 could be spent on.

Howard
Message: Posted by: jo (Jul 14, 2005 12:43PM)
May I make one or two observations?

Seems a lot of bickering in the Café could be avoided if people simply back up their opnions... which they are entitled to, from the outset. Each viewpoint expressed in here is valid and comes with its own amount of experience and thought-provoking questions. I too, would like to know a reason behind someone saying something like: "its wrong". And I would be prepared to listen to that reason and perhaps debate it. Josh, Jordon, I'm sure you both have valid points and see the other's for what its worth too... but perhaps you guys were just coming from different 'angles' on this?

Another thing is has that only Bob Baker has so far suggested an alternative... and I'm just wondering if it was made clear to Josh that the performance is for the kids only (no adults), or is part of a fund-raising/entertainment evening for the parents of the kids? Why do we assume elementary kids are the ones to be hypnotised?

I personally wouldn't hypnotise kids... BUT... if the school calls me up specifically looking for that kind of show (hypnotising kids) and can pay my fee, it means to me that they are looking for something "different" and maybe even "unique". I would certainly rather offer them an entertaining Mentalism act where suggestion and pseudo-hypnosis can play a part in it, and theme the show on "brain power" or "the power of imagination" or something to that effect. Ian Rowland's "The Subliminal Prediction" from his Alpha Mentalism notes immediately comes to mind. Also, throwing in some "suggestability tests" for the entire audience, were they kids, would do absolutely no harm and would be fun for the kids too (this I HAVE done to great effect). And of course don't discount Orville Meyer's Telepathy in Action... or Zapped! (electric chairs done with older kids). All these can be worked into a safe and fun show that kids can take part in without law-suites or mental scarring, and without the word "hypnosis" ever to be used.
In fact when I have done these suggestability tests as part of a show, I throw it in as "bits of business" and say that it is NOT hypnosis. The kids are then more amazed at their own reaction to the test then they are to their friends. And everyone is complimented on their amazing imagination and concentration.

This I offer only as an alternative to an actual Hypnosis Show for kids.

Just some thoughts...

Jo
Message: Posted by: KN_Magic (Jul 14, 2005 12:54PM)
Well said Jo,

A metalism/pseudohypnosis show would work well. I mean you can throw in some suggestion/NLP without having to put them into a 'trance', but you'd have to get down on the kids level. I think, although it may be perfrectly safe, the potential fall out could be catastrophic.

Personally I wouldn't do it.
You could always do balloon animals :)

Kevin.
Message: Posted by: jo (Jul 14, 2005 12:56PM)
Well, Kevin, a "suggestion" that involves balloon animals? Now that's clever... LOL
Message: Posted by: KN_Magic (Jul 14, 2005 02:53PM)
Have you not met my mindreading balloon dog?
Message: Posted by: themindreader (Jul 14, 2005 03:26PM)
Hi,

I really don't see any ethical problem here at all (providing that the subjects are not literally children but teenagers). The people who would have a problem with you doing hypnosis here are generally the kind of people who would have a problem with you doing hypnosis with anyone.

I started to study hypnosis whilst I was at the 6th form (18 years old) and I generally found the people around the 14/15/16 year old mark were absolutely prime hypnotic subjects.

I think what could be called into question here is the suitabilty of the skits you will be performing. Steer clear of anything to do with sex, body parts or being drunk and you should be fine!

Just my two pennies worth

Simon
Message: Posted by: magic in mind (Jul 14, 2005 04:01PM)
Hey you can practice on my kids if you like.just make sure that every time I click my fingers theyll do exactly what I say.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 14, 2005 06:07PM)
I know very little about hypnosis, and haven't formed opinions yet on these kinds of ethical questions. But if it's an outrage to hypnotize kids, it makes me wonder if it's completely kosher to hypnotize adults. One complicating factor is that it seems to me that we can't get a consensus on what exactly hypnosis is.

For those that thing hypnosis is ok for adults but not for kids: specifically why?
Message: Posted by: KyletheGreat (Jul 14, 2005 10:10PM)
Must be very hard to get them to be still and focus on what you are saying!
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Jul 14, 2005 10:15PM)
I think the point about young kids is they have a very vivid imagination ..great for guided imagery.

Howard
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 14, 2005 11:13PM)
I've hypnotised hundreds of kids of primary school age, withpout any problems.
Having said that I was actually of the same age as them at the time!

Actually there is no law against hypnotising children (UK). As long as the parents are accompanying the child 'The blow-away' technique is an excellent tool, and used by quite a few hynotherapists here in the UK.

However, I have to say that I'm one of the 'nays' when it comes to hypnotising kids in a show. And I'm pretty sure that this is actually illegal in the UK (outside therapy). And let's just say (to save a lot of time)that if someone doesn't know 'why' I'm against it... then I'm sure I wouldn't be able to explain it clearly to that same person.

Bobser
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 15, 2005 12:06AM)
Bobser: are you implying that it's wrong to hypnotize children because the hypnotist might do something inappropriate with the child? If so, what if it was a public performance, with the kid's parents in attendance? Is there any circumstance where it would be acceptable for an adult to hypnotize a kid?

If I missed Bobser's point, perhaps a wiser person could point it out to me.
Message: Posted by: jo (Jul 15, 2005 07:23AM)
Jimtron, I think the biggest problem that people may have here with "hypnotising" kids for stage is that they may not be emotionally ready to handle the aftermath of such a public performance. I know that this is something I keep in mind.

As an example I have a very well known South African magician as a friend who stopped performing "the Egg Bag" decades ago because of one performance where the illusion was that the kid "layed" an egg. My friend received a phone call from the unhappy parents saying that the kid was being teased to the point of tears afterwards by his school mates.

Essentially as adults, we'll enter any performance situation (hopefully as performer; definately as audience) knowing more or less what the outcome will be... eg. laughter, tears, horror, etc. This is especially true for a hypnosis stage show. We know that the skits performed by us will be potentially embaressing, and so we either give our consent willingly and take part, or don't. Even in today's fast paced world I don't think kids are emotionally ready for this kind of decision. And if they are "hypnotised" without parental consent any behaviour other than their "normal" behaviour can then be blamed on the hypnotist (as alluded to in an earlier post).
Part of the problem too is the general consensus of what "hypnosis" is. Stage Hypnosis by its very nature has trivialised "hypnosis" into nothing more than a funny (sometimes embarressing) side show where the people taking part have "permission" and an excuse to "perform". I'm sure that anyone here has at one time or another, as a hypnotherapist, been approached by a potential client only to hear the words: "Don't make me do anything I don't want to do!" So it's that definition of Hypnosis that you'll come up against in the show world.
My personal feeling is that "hypnosis" as a therapy to assist altering change, does exist, and exists healthily in the form of conversational trance states (Eriksonian) and methodologies that NLP incorporates. And this is all done in one way or another with the consent of the 'client'. Hypnosis as a stage show is something very different, and is done with the consent of those that would perform on stage.

Still, I think that many of these problems of whether or not to "hypnotise" kids for a performance (as per the original post) can be solved by creative thinking and offering a Mentalism-esq type show instead, incorporating pseudo-hypnotic (without the need to even call it that - or hypnosis for that matter) type effects. (And please, if Kevin is gonna be in the audience, give him a hypnotised balloon dog that will obey his every command to "lie down" and "play dead" :))

Jo

PS. You could also think of this hypnosis show phenomenon in another way: At any show there will be those in the audience who believe in hypnosis and those in the audience who don't. Thankfully those who believe will take part in a subliminal effort to prove those that don't, wrong. At the conclusion of the show there will still be those that believe and those who don't... but EVERYBODY would have had a good time :) (and usually at the consented expense of those who do believe).


Posted: Jul 15, 2005 3:37am
---------------------------------------
[b]Ammendment:[/b] I should rather have said in the above post that there will always be those at a show that believe in "hypnosis" and those that are CURIOUS (instead of 'don't believe). Those that believe will generally try to convince those that are curious that they are hypnotised.
Message: Posted by: themindreader (Jul 15, 2005 01:22PM)
Regarding the legal position in the UK. I am fairly sure that there would be no problem.

The stage hypnosis act requires all participants to be over the age of 18 - however there is a clause in it somewhere which states that private performances are excluded from the guidelines.

Therefore as long as you could justify that the performance was "private" and not "public" (which you should be able to do OK) then you would be legally fine,

I think.

Simon
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 16, 2005 02:01AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-14 14:07, jimtron wrote:
But if it's an outrage to hypnotize kids, it makes me wonder if it's completely kosher to hypnotize adults.
[/quote]
Jim,

Hopefully you realize that there are things that are inappropriate for children that are completely "kosher" for adults. Just because it's an outrage for a 30 year old man to "date" a 10 year old, doesn't mean that it's not kosher for him to date an adult. One has nothing to do with the other.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 16, 2005 04:18PM)
Jeff:

"Hopefully you realize that there are things that are inappropriate for children that are completely "kosher" for adults."

Yes, of course.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 16, 2005 04:58PM)
With all bickering aside. I think that this subject comes down to personal and moral judgements. It's a shame that a lot of people in our society today try and force their beliefs upon us. If I want to take the show, I will, if I don't, I won't. I think it is, again, a matter of each of our personal morals and values.

With that said, I personally don't think that hypnotizing children is wrong. However, obviously I have to choose routines which are suitable for children (and I'm not doing the show for 4-5 year olds, the ages are 10-12).

Hypnosis has been used in hypnotherepy for a long time, children have been hypnotized for this reason, so I see no reason I or you or anyone else can't do it. Obviously the Pretalk has to be adjusted, and you'll need to meet with the Prinipal or whoever to make sure that it has to be absolutely quit during the induction, or there is no show.
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 17, 2005 12:34AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-16 12:58, joshlondon wrote:
If I want to take the show, I will, if I don't, I won't.
[/quote]
That's fine, and I have no problem with your opinion, but remember, you asked for input, so you got it.

[quote]
On 2005-07-16 12:58, joshlondon wrote:
Hypnosis has been used in hypnotherepy for a long time, children have been hypnotized for this reason, so I see no reason I or you or anyone else can't do it.
[/quote]
Children these days are very cruel, and you could very likely get a kid on stage who is already a little bit of an outcast and picked on, etc. He gets up there, and does something harmlessly silly and funny, and for the rest of his school life, the bullies are teasing him and making fun of him.

You don't have that type of thing happen in a therapy session, and you don't have that type of thing in an adult hypnosis show. To me, that would be enough of a moral risk that NO dollar amount is worth taking the show. I would take the show and hypnotize the teachers.

[quote]
On 2005-07-16 12:58, joshlondon wrote:
It's a shame that a lot of people in our society today try and force their beliefs upon us
[/quote]
If I told you that you shouldn't kill people... would I be trying to "force" my beliefs on you?

If I told you that you shouldn't steal stuff... would I be trying to "force" my beliefs on you?

If I told you not to be a pedophile... would I be trying to "force" my beliefs on you?

There are some things that are just basic common sense, and unless someone "enforces" some semblance of order then we are uncivilized. Having said all that, I think it is very appropriate to share your beliefs with others. I wouldn't call it forcing.

Do you share your magic with people or do you force it on people? If I watch a great movie, I tell my friends about it, and I even try to convince them to see it. I'm only doing it because it was something that made me feel good, and I thought they might enjoy the experience. It's sharing, not forcing.

If I attempt to share my beliefs, please assume that I have positive intentions, not negative ones. That seems to be the trend these days... whenever someone does something, people assume that s/he meant harm. That's always the conclusion they jump to. Why not jump to the conclusion that the person meant well, but it backfired? It's just as likely of a conclusion.

Anyway... I'll get off my soapbox. :)
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 17, 2005 06:42AM)
I have no doubt that you had good intentions, and I do appreciate input, but I don't like it when someone says "It is morally wrong to do this type of show." That is what I meant.
Message: Posted by: Jordan Waller (Jul 17, 2005 04:43PM)
Well it is morally wrong to do this show. If you didn't want to hear this you should not have posted in the first place.
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Jul 17, 2005 05:20PM)
Mr. Jackson didn't think there was anything morally wrong with what he was doing....

Howard
Message: Posted by: Danzig (Jul 17, 2005 07:04PM)
You should I got a kick out those things when I was in K-4th and $2500 is a good deal.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 17, 2005 07:51PM)
I am sorry Jordan, but for you to say that this is morally wrong for me to do this is not right for you to say. I don't want to start a whole big thing here, I just wanted some input about this topic, and to be honest I think it is wrong of you to tell someone else what is wrong or right to them.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 17, 2005 10:23PM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-16 12:58, joshlondon wrote:

Hypnosis has been used in hypnotherepy for a long time
[/quote]
Yes joshlondon. In fact, not just for a long time but rather... every single time!
That'll be why they call it 'hypno'therapy as opposed to 'spanking'therapy which is a totally different way of getting rid of one's phobias.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 18, 2005 12:01AM)
Bobser, I sincerly apoligize with the utmost sarcasm. Just joking.
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 18, 2005 03:52AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-17 15:51, joshlondon wrote:
I am sorry Jordan, but for you to say that this is morally wrong for me to do this is not right for you to say. I don't want to start a whole big thing here, I just wanted some input about this topic, and to be honest I think it is wrong of you to tell someone else what is wrong or right to them.
[/quote]
Josh,

I think it's morally wrong to do the show. That does not mean that I'm forcing my beliefs on you. I'm simply giving you my opinion that I think what you are going to do is morally wrong (I'm assuming you're going to take the show). However, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just expressing my opinion. If I can't express my opinion, then you neither can you, and therefore you would not be able to say that you hate it when people force their beliefs on others.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 18, 2005 05:54AM)
Jstone, we could go on and on, however, I do not have the time to do that, I appreciate your (and everyone's) input, beliefs, opinions, or whatever.
Message: Posted by: Jordan Waller (Jul 18, 2005 11:17AM)
No Josh, you seem to apreciate everyones oppinion that does not conflict with yours. If you are going to play the 'stop forcing your beleifs' card everytime you don't agree with someone you should never have posted and in fact should stay well away from any other similiar discussions were different oppinions are offered.
Message: Posted by: Drewmcadam (Jul 18, 2005 11:33AM)
Check this out ...
[url=http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/features/tm_objectid=15693949&method=full&siteid=86024&headline=look-deeply-into-my-eyes---now-tidy-up-your-bedroom--name_page.html]Look deeply into my eyes ...now tidy up your bedroom[/url]
Message: Posted by: The Gentleman (Jul 18, 2005 11:33AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-13 08:19, kinesis wrote:
I think the parents of the children would be outraged if this show went on without individual parental permission. If any child behaved in even a slightly different mannor after the show you'd have a huge legal case on your hands. I always thought there was an age restriction on these things if it was a performance rather than therapy.
[/quote]
I once considered a similiar feat utilizing Nitrous Oxide, aka Laughing Gas.
Not having read all of this thread because I do like to noisily jump in with my opinions, I'm with Josh. It disgusted me when I heard about the Church of England using hypnotism in their Sunday schools.
I... I don't really know how that applies, but I decided to mention it and you can't stop me.
I would say rely on your personal judgement, but kid, I don't know you.

Edit: I think UK Law states something about being 12+ when it comes to subliminal and hypnotic material. That might be from Brown's patter at his live show, though.

Edit: Oh bugger that was meant to be the quote about having Ether in a bucket. -- OTHER forums have the quote button bellow, y'know.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 18, 2005 03:36PM)
Thanks for the link Drew, that is a great article! I liked it a lot.

The Gentleman: I heard this stroy about Ormand McGill using ether to put volunteers under back in the day. He would have a big bucket of it and a fan behind the bucket and as he gave his pretalk they were already "hypnotized."

Jordan: Point well taken, I'll make sure to make a note of it!
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Jul 18, 2005 05:34PM)
Okay, voice of experience here. For the past 20-odd years, I have been doing hypnosis shows at a group of Jewish Youth Camps in the midwest. Supervised by Rabbis, Orthodox, no less and I'm not Jewish, so that should give you some idea of the level of trust involved.

I usually do about a dozen of these per summer and at least a dozen more of the youth groups during the rest of the year, plus a number of synagogues and high school groups, like USY as well.

As to the moral implications, as my show does not do the demeaning skits - no animal impressions, no household appliances, etc., but does improvisational theater-like routines that stress creativity, the shows are viewed as being educational and empowering (that's a quote from several of the supervising Rabbis, not from me). The kids actually clammor to be involved because they know that they are going to have as much fun on stage as in the audience because they get to experience the wonders inside their heads themselves.

If this is morally wrong, I am guilty as charged.

The parents all know about the shows before the kids go to camp and we've only had one parent decide that they didn't want their kid to attend, which was okay with everyone. The next year, after the parent had gotten the reports of how the show went and had seen the video, not only did the kid get permission, but the parents came up because they were excitd about seeing the show themselves and hired me for one of their parties later that year.

The keys to working this age group are respect, care, dignity and professionalism. If you treat them in a way that lets them know that they are powering up their abilities of imagination and concentration, as opposed to playing stupid power games as some hypnotists do, then you will do just fine. If you let them know that everyone is there to have fun and not to embarrass anyone and live up to the promise, you will work the gig again and again.

You will also gain the respect of the people running the gig and the parents.

With regard to parental permission, a caveat: let the parents know that if they do not want their child to attend the show, they should send a letter stating the fact, as opposed to sending s aigned permission slip. here's why: parents are lazy and kids forget.

Parents will forget to sign the slips and kids will forget to turn them in and you will have a group of 4 to choose from to do your show. Been there, had it happen.

Doing it the other way, makes it easier and only the parents who are really opposed will sign off and make sure the letter gets delivered.

Just some comments from someone who has done more than a few of these.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 18, 2005 06:26PM)
Thanks Lee!
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 18, 2005 07:34PM)
For those saying it's amoral to hynotize children--it seems to me that you've been heavy on the judging and light on explaining your reasons. Jordan called hypnosis of children "appaling" and, when asked why:

[quote]If you realy need to ask this you have serious issues.

It is just morally wrong to do this.

Children are innocent beings that do not need humiliating or being psychologicaly ****ed up in front of a crowd of all their peers. Especialy in this day and age.
[/quote]
I'm curious to hear more specifics on why this is wrong. When adults are hypnotized, are they being psychologically ****ed up and humiliated? I'm still not real clear on what the difference is. Assuming that the hypnotist is not a jerk who is out to humiliate people. If the hypnotist is respectful and sensitive careful, and parents are present and have given their permission, is it still morally wrong?

What is inherently amoral about hypnotizing a child?

By the way, I don't have an opinion about hypnosis in general yet; I don't know enough about it. I'm just curious about those who have made judgements.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 18, 2005 09:52PM)
Nice write up Drew. Well done. Do keep us informed. TV programmes have been made with much worse ideas!!!

Bobser

Had to pop in again. just noticed I was the six hundredth and sixty sixth person to view this particular thread. (666)
Just wanted to tell everyone!

Bobser
Message: Posted by: The Gentleman (Jul 19, 2005 10:58AM)
God I've missed you, Bobser.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 19, 2005 11:41AM)
Get in the que gentleman. lots of magicians want to be hugged by these arms.
Anyway, ta.
Message: Posted by: GothicBen (Jul 19, 2005 02:04PM)
Lee Darrow had answered the question very well, with his list of caveats.

However, I am going to address an issue that I feel has been deliberately skirted around.

Imagine if parents find out that their children were "hypnotised".

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't the public perception of hypnosis is some semi-magical skill where the hypnotists can get anyone to do their bidding. A cliche, I know, but one that is commonly held, even by well-informed individuals.

Parents could jump to conclusions and think that if you can make children dance around like chickens, then you could easily put them in a trance and sexually abuse them.

For the sake of cash, do you really want to open yourself up to accusations?

Ben
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 19, 2005 04:48PM)
Ben:

Getting permission from the parents would be essential, I would think. What I'm wondering is, do people think it's *inherently* amoral to hypnotize children? And if so, why?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 19, 2005 05:48PM)
If you are hearing a voice in your head as you scan these symbols, you are under hypnosis right now. And most parents want their children hypnotized into such strange behaviors as spelling, knowing the "times table" and of course holding a politically correct worldview.

Get over it.

You want to know what really scares most adults... the idea that children might actually hold them accountable for the things they do and ask children to believe.

P.S., IMHO a performer doing anything to embarrass a child or raise uncomfortable questions without the explicit permission, consent and support of their parent/guardian is doing a BAD thing.
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 20, 2005 02:39AM)
Jimtron,

You're asking what's different between hypnotizing a child and an adult. I would answer that question with an example. Let's take the cliche of hypnosis shows and say that you make the subject cluck like a chicken. If I'm out, as an adult, with a bunch of my buddies and one of them gets on stage and clucks like a chicken, even if we make fun of him, he will likely not be emotionally damaged from it.

Most adults are mature enough not to push the teasing that far. However, with children, kids are ruthless. They are much more agressive and hurtful in their teasing. It's not the show that's gonna screw them up, but the bullies (or whatever they're called today) and their mean behavior.

As I mentioned earlier, you can't compare behavior that is ok for adults and say that it's ok for children because adults do it. There are a ton of things that adults can do that children should not do.

Children are less emotinally stable and secure, and are therefore more likely to be hurt when/if they are teased after the show. There is, of course, nothing scientific here, but rather an opinion, that seems to be logical in my mind.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 20, 2005 03:19AM)
Jeff:

Thanks for the reply, I think you made a good point. I agree that teasing can be really hurtful between kids. But isn't there any type of stage hypnotism that doesn't involve embarrassing people, and/or wouldn't lead to kids being teased and bullied? Is stage hypnotism always about making fun of the volunteers? Also: not all adults take kindly to being embarrassed in front of others.

[quote]As I mentioned earlier, you can't compare behavior that is ok for adults and say that it's ok for children because adults do it. There are a ton of things that adults can do that children should not do.
[/quote]
I completely agree, of course. I was just trying to determine what exactly it is that makes stage hypnosis inappropriate for kids, but appropriate for adults. I don't know very much about hypnotism; I'm trying to learn more.
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 20, 2005 04:08AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-19 23:19, jimtron wrote:
Jeff:

Thanks for the reply, I think you made a good point. I agree that teasing can be really hurtful between kids. But isn't there any type of stage hypnotism that doesn't involve embarrassing people, and/or wouldn't lead to kids being teased and bullied? Is stage hypnotism always about making fun of the volunteers? Also: not all adults take kindly to being embarrassed in front of others.

"As I mentioned earlier, you can't compare behavior that is ok for adults and say that it's ok for children because adults do it. There are a ton of things that adults can do that children should not do. "

I completely agree, of course. I was just trying to determine what exactly it is that makes stage hypnosis inappropriate for kids, but appropriate for adults. I don't know very much about hypnotism; I'm trying to learn more.
[/quote]

Jimtron,

Before I answer, let me just say that I appreciate the civil manner in which you are replying. All too often these posts get uncivil and unreasonable, so I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate the fact that you are just wanting to have an intelligent conversation rather than an argument.

As for the question at hand, with adults, there are a couple of things to consider... most adults know what they're getting into when they go on stage. There are plenty of funny bits that aren't "making fun" of the volunteers. Most adults won't mind the fun or even the teasing, etc...

But one big difference between the kids and the adults is, again, the "other" kids. The entire show could go perfectly without making fun of the kids, but some jealous kid who wasn't picked could make fun of someone who was. I also think, however, for the show to be even somewhat entertaining, the kids are going to have to do some pretty silly stuff which could lead to being picked on at school.

As mentioned earlier, this is more speculation than science.
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Jul 20, 2005 04:18AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-19 10:04, GothicBen wrote:
Lee Darrow had answered the question very well, with his list of caveats.

However, I am going to address an issue that I feel has been deliberately skirted around.

Imagine if parents find out that their children were "hypnotised".

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't the public perception of hypnosis is some semi-magical skill where the hypnotists can get anyone to do their bidding. A cliche, I know, but one that is commonly held, even by well-informed individuals.

Parents could jump to conclusions and think that if you can make children dance around like chickens, then you could easily put them in a trance and sexually abuse them.

For the sake of cash, do you really want to open yourself up to accusations?

Ben
[/quote]
Ben, I addressed this rather thoroughly in my post. The parents ARE notified and a notice sent that if any parent does not want their child to participate, they are to send a letter stating such to the camp or school under their signature and I stated the reasons for doing it this way.

I also strongly advise anyone doing shows of this kind to carry performer's liability insurance.

in fact, I have an eBook on Safety For Stage Hypnotists - a guidebook for performers and lecturers. It's a CD in Adobe .pdf format, readable on both PC and MAC systems. If anyone is interested, drop me a PM or an email for ordering details. I cover this and everything in-between, up to and including groupies, mic cords and man-eating agents!

;)

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 20, 2005 04:25AM)
[quote]...I appreciate the civil manner in which you are replying.
[/quote]
Thanks; I try hard to be respectful and civil, even when I disagree with others.


Jeff, it sounds like you are saying it's not exactly the hypnosis itself that's a problem with kids, it's just that it will lead them to behave in a silly way that will lead other kids to ridicule them. Is that accurate? Or would you say that there is something *inherent* in hypnotizing children that is amoral? What if you were hynotizing a child in front of only his best friends and parents? In other words, if you ruled out the being made fun of part, would it still be wrong?
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 20, 2005 06:15AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-20 00:25, jimtron wrote:
"...I appreciate the civil manner in which you are replying."

Thanks; I try hard to be respectful and civil, even when I disagree with others.


Jeff, it sounds like you are saying it's not exactly the hypnosis itself that's a problem with kids, it's just that it will lead them to behave in a silly way that will lead other kids to ridicule them. Is that accurate? Or would you say that there is something *inherent* in hypnotizing children that is amoral? What if you were hynotizing a child in front of only his best friends and parents? In other words, if you ruled out the being made fun of part, would it still be wrong?
[/quote]
Jimtron,

That's a good question. I think I agree with you. Your first statement about the problem being more with the kids than the hypnosis is pretty much how I feel, but I'm still trying to decide if I have a problem with hypnotizing children.

I think hypnotizing them is fine, but in the right circumstances (I'm thinking out loud at this point). I think it comes down to the fact that I don't know enough about the dangers of hypnosis in general, let alone the potential impact it can have on children. I mostly am speaking to the concern of other kids being cruel after the show.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 23, 2005 11:22PM)
[quote]I think it comes down to the fact that I don't know enough about the dangers of hypnosis in general, let alone the potential impact it can have on children.
[/quote]
I too don't know very much about hypnosis. I just think that some are very quick to say it's a horrible thing to do to kids, but perfectly fine to do to adults. I wonder how many have a thorough understanding of what hypnosis is, exactly.

[quote]
On 2005-07-13 06:41, Jordan Waller wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-07-12 15:53, joshlondon wrote:
Jordan, why do you say that? (that it's appalling)
[/quote]
If you realy need to ask this you have serious issues.

It is just morally wrong to do this.

Children are innocent beings that do not need humiliating or being psychologicaly ****ed up in front of a crowd of all their peers. Especialy in this day and age.
[/quote]
I guess I have "serious issues," because I still am wondering why Jodan thinks hypnotising kids is "appalling." Jordan: In my opinion, if you're going to call someone's actions here appalling and morally wrong, is it too much to ask for you to explain why? Do you think Lee Darrow is "morally wrong" for what he described on this thread?

I'm still wondering, is it *inherently* wrong to hypnotize a kid. In other words, let's say the parents gave permission, the hypnotist is sensitive and kind, there's no coercion, he's not ridiculing or insulting anyone, only his parents and close friends are there, etc. What is inherent in hypnosis that will humiliate and pscyhologically damage a child?
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Jul 24, 2005 05:55AM)
Jimtron.

The parents gave permission for their kids to sleep over at Jackos !

Howard
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 24, 2005 06:57PM)
Howard:

What's your point? Please elaborate. In the example I gave above, I said that the parents are present. Are you saying that hypnotising children is wrong because it could lead to molestation? If so, couldn't that happen with adults as well? Besides we're talking about stage hypnosis, aren't we? Not one kid and the hypnotist alone.
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Jul 24, 2005 09:16PM)
Correct me if I am wrong..but I don't remember Jacko being found guilty of molestation?
However the point is..the parents gave permission to stay overnight ..Jacko still got caught with a court case down the road. Its bad enough adults later claiming to have some sort of mental problem caused by hypnosis, it would be even worse with kids.

Howard
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 24, 2005 09:35PM)
I'm sorry, but I still don't understand what Michael Jackson has to do with this. No, I don't think Jackson was found guilty. But apparently Jackson spent the night with a child in his bed on more than one occasion (as I understand it). How is that like stage hypnosis?

Howard: do you feel that there is something inherent in hypnotising children that is unethical? If so, what? Again, I'm not talking about an adult and a child alone in a room; I believe that the initial post was about stage hypnosis.

A surgeon could act inappropriately after anesthetizing a child. But I don't think the use of anashtesia is amoral.

[quote]It's bad enough adults later claiming to have some sort of mental problem caused by hypnosis, it would be even worse with kids.
[/quote]
The arguments I'm hearing seem to implicate hypnosis of adults and kids, not just kids. Sorry if I'm dense, but I still don't understand why hypnosis is fine for adults but amoral for kids.

Lee has experience hypnotizing kids, and it seems to have worked out fine. Does anyone have evidence that hypnosis is bad for kids (I said hypnosis, not teasing kids or having a sleepover with an adult).
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 25, 2005 03:13AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-24 17:35, jimtron wrote:
I'm sorry, but I still don't understand what Michael Jackson has to do with this. [/quote]
Jimtron,

His point about Jackson, was merely the fact that just because you don't think what you're doing is wrong, doesn't mean that it isn't wrong.

Just because you (or someone else) doesn't think that child hypnosis isn't wrong doesn't mean that it's ok.

The analogy, although extreme, proves the point... Just because MJ thinks it's ok to sleep with children, doesn't mean that it's ok.

In other words, even though people are entitled to their own opinion, they must realize that their opinion can still be wrong. It could be your opinion that I have 2 kids and live in Florida, but you'd be wrong. I have 4 kids and live in Utah, regardless of someone else's opinion.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 25, 2005 04:56AM)
But I'm not saying hypnotizing children is ok. I don't know if it is or not. I've been asking: what specifically is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing kids? You said it's wrong because the kids could get teased; but (I think) we agreed it wasn't the hypnosis that was directly at fault, it was that *if* a hypnotist puts the kids in embarrasing situations, then they *might* get teased by other kids. That could also happen if a child becomes a Mathlete, or participates in a spelling bee. But I don't think anyone would argue that being a Mathlete is amoral.


Of course it's not ok for MJ to sleep with children just because he thinks it's ok. I don't think you're going to get too many arguments on that point.


I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I haven't gotten too many responses: what is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing children?

Do you all agree with Jordan that hypnotizing children is humiliating and causes psychological damage? If so, please explain how that happens. And again; Lee has apparently hypnoized children with no problems, and Josh has witnessed the hypnosis of children with no problems. Does anyone have evidence that hypnotizing children is amoral, or dangerous, etc.?

thanks,

Jim
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 25, 2005 06:43AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-25 00:56, jimtron wrote:
But I'm not saying hypnotizing children is ok. I don't know if it is or not. I've been asking: what specifically is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing kids? You said it's wrong because the kids could get teased; but (I think) we agreed it wasn't the hypnosis that was directly at fault, it was that *if* a hypnotist puts the kids in embarrasing situations, then they *might* get teased by other kids. That could also happen if a child becomes a Mathlete, or participates in a spelling bee. But I don't think anyone would argue that being a Mathlete is amoral.


Of course it's not ok for MJ to sleep with children just because he thinks it's ok. I don't think you're going to get too many arguments on that point.


I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I haven't gotten too many responses: what is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing children?

Do you all agree with Jordan that hypnotizing children is humiliating and causes psychological damage? If so, please explain how that happens. And again; Lee has apparently hypnoized children with no problems, and Josh has witnessed the hypnosis of children with no problems. Does anyone have evidence that hypnotizing children is amoral, or dangerous, etc.?

thanks,

Jim
[/quote]
Jim,

As stated before, I'm not sure how I feel about the subject. I think I came to the conclusion that it was probably ok to do so. In the above post, I was just merely clarifying the Jackson comment. I wasn't stating my opinion of hypnosis for children. I was just saying that if someone has an opinion about anything being right or wrong, it doesn't change fact.
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Jul 25, 2005 06:49AM)
Jstone
Thanks for that, my analogy was exactly the point you are making.

Howard
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 25, 2005 06:50AM)
[quote]I was just saying that if someone has an opinion about anything being right or wrong, it doesn't change fact.
[/quote]
Agreed.
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Jul 25, 2005 07:44AM)
Digressing slightly..what is so funny/entertaining about most stage hypnosis acts?
If you ask someone in a normal state to pretend to be a chicken or to be Mick
Jagger they would probably give you the same impersonation as if they were hypnotised. Is it only funny because they don't know they are doing it?

Back to the original thread..most very young kids would do what you asked them to do anyway, so why the hypnosis?

Howard
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 25, 2005 03:48PM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-25 03:44, hkwiles wrote:
Digressing slightly..what is so funny/entertaining about most stage hypnosis acts?
If you ask someone in a normal state to pretend to be a chicken or to be Mick
Jagger they would probably give you the same impersonation as if they were hypnotised. Is it only funny because they don't know they are doing it?

Back to the original thread..most very young kids would do what you asked them to do anyway, so why the hypnosis?

Howard
[/quote]
Howard,

That's a great question. Here's some information that may or may not help. I have a good friend who used to be a stage hypnotist. The reason he quit is because he said that most of the time a good portion of the people on stage weren't even hypnotized, but they went along with the gags and "suggestions" anyway.

The reason that made him quit is because it made him a little uncomfortable knowing how much control he had over these people and how willing they were (due to peer pressure and/or hypnotic suggestion) to do anything you told them.

I guess that really doesn't answer your question, but it is interesting to note his observation.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 25, 2005 04:06PM)
Some would argue that's all that hypnosis is--not really being under a "spell" or "trance," but just going along with it (and believing you're under a spell via the power of suggestion). If this is the case, it seems to me that's another argument that hypnotizing kids is not inherently bad.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 25, 2005 06:38PM)
Look I think I missed something back there.
Is someone suggesting that Michael Jackson using Ormond McGill's techniques for hypnotizing kids? And if so, does did work in its simplest form or was he also using strangulation and ether blown in from under the bedroom door? Which I think would be just plain wrong!
Message: Posted by: Drewmcadam (Jul 25, 2005 07:23PM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-18 17:52, bobser wrote:
Nice write up Drew. Well done. Do keep us informed. TV programmes have been made with much worse ideas!!!

Bobser
[/quote]
Are you psychic? Just back from a wee trip to Arran, and what was waiting for me? An e-mail from an ex-TV producer, now television agent who specialises in "experts", wanting me to contact her. Weird.

Drew
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 25, 2005 08:28PM)
Hey, nice one Drew.
Me? two kids parties and a wedding where the cheque bounced.
But am I complaining?
Am I f****ng complaining?!!!
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 25, 2005 09:04PM)
[url=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=125211&forum=15&0]This thread[/url]

[url=http://research.binghamton.edu/discovere/dec2004/TopStories/hypnosis.htm]links to this article[/url]

which begins:

[quote]"In the popular imagination, a person who submits to hypnosis falls into a trance. The subject slavishly follows the hypnotist's commands, perhaps to squawk like a chicken, re-enact events from childhood or develop a lasting aversion to cigarettes. When the subject "awakens," he or she forgets everything that happened during the session.

Actually, hypnosis is not like that at all, said Steven Lynn, professor of psychology at Binghamton University, who has devoted much of his career to establishing a clear, scientific understanding of hypnotic suggestion. A person who responds well to hypnosis takes an active rather than a passive role, working in partnership with the hypnotist. "Hypnosis involves the participant thinking and imagining along with whatever is suggested, in an expectant manner," he said."
[/quote]
This sounds somewhat similar to jstone's friend's impression (a few posts up). There haven't been any posts from the "hypnotizing kids is amoral" camp for a while now--any thoughts?
Message: Posted by: Drewmcadam (Jul 26, 2005 12:43AM)
Bobser, what a bummer (Hey! Hippy saying!) Suggestion: get your own back by posting a brick to them, and not putting a stamp on the packaging!

Yeah, the "interested TV agent" sound good, but these things have a habit of not turning out to be quite as good as one has envisaged! Good grief... I'm turning into a pessimist!

Drew
Message: Posted by: Euangelion (Jul 26, 2005 01:15AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-14 11:26, themindreader wrote:
Hi,

I really don't see any ethical problem here at all (providing that the subjects are not literally children but teenagers).

Simon
[/quote]
Teens aren't likely to be in elementary school. I would be very wary of involving any elementary kids for whom you do not have a prior parental release.



Posted: Jul 25, 2005 9:38pm
---------------------------------------
[quote]
On 2005-07-25 00:56, jimtron wrote:
But I'm not saying hypnotizing children is ok. I don't know if it is or not. I've been asking: what specifically is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing kids? You said it's wrong because the kids could get teased; but (I think) we agreed it wasn't the hypnosis that was directly at fault, it was that *if* a hypnotist puts the kids in embarrasing situations, then they *might* get teased by other kids. That could also happen if a child becomes a Mathlete, or participates in a spelling bee. But I don't think anyone would argue that being a Mathlete is amoral.

Of course it's not ok for MJ to sleep with children just because he thinks it's ok. I don't think you're going to get too many arguments on that point.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I haven't gotten too many responses: what is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing children?

Do you all agree with Jordan that hypnotizing children is humiliating and causes psychological damage? If so, please explain how that happens. And again; Lee has apparently hypnotized children with no problems, and Josh has witnessed the hypnosis of children with no problems. Does anyone have evidence that hypnotizing children is amoral, or dangerous, etc.?

thanks,

Jim
[/quote]

What is wrong may be divided into several issues.

1) Have parents been informed of the program and have they agreed to have their participate? Some parents may have religious objections to hypnotism. It is their right to make those decisions for their children no one else's.

2) Yes, children can be harmed by traumatic emotional experience. It does not have to be real in a historical sense since kids at different stages developmentally confuse reality and imaginary frequently. You may have nothing to do with it directly. However, after the show teasing among young children may well occur about you did this or you did that. Kids may even lie to the participant about what they did further inflicting pain and causing further confusion. An emotionally vulnerable young child may have no resources by which to deal with that pain. If you do not have training in developmental psychology to understand the different emotional needs and vulnerabilities of kids of various ages how will you know where you may do damage and how to avoid it.

3)Do you have a well prepared, professional show that is designed for the age group and their interests? Or are you simply taking a clients money because it is there for the taking? In other words what are your business ethics and responsibility to the client

4)What about your ethical responsibilities to yourself and any people who are dependent upon you. Your disclaimer will not protect you from a lawsuit by a parent. they don't sign the contract. It may be even a suit that you can win, but it will cost you a great deal to defend yourself. Most any lawyer will tell you that disclaimers today only present a stumbling block they are not reliably prophylactic.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 26, 2005 01:49AM)
1) I agree, and I would bet that most of us would agree on this point.

2) JStone and I discussed this above. Hypnotizing kids could lead to teasing or other duress. But a kid can be teased for wearing the "wrong" clothes, or joining the chess club, or dropping the ball in PE, etc. Also; couldn't one use hypnosis in ways that don't make the kids do ridiculous things? Does hypnosis always involve mocking people?

3) Whether you're hypnotizing kids or doing a magic show for adults, I think most of us would agree that one should have a well prepared, professional show that is appropriate for the particular audience.

4) Yes, you could get sued.

Euangelion: You made good points, but I don't think you addressed the issue of what directly/specifically is unethical about hypnotizing kids. Here's a question I asked earlier in the thread; I wonder if you have an opinion:

"I'm still wondering, is it *inherently* wrong to hypnotize a kid. In other words, let's say the parents gave permission, the hypnotist is sensitive and kind, there's no coercion, he's not ridiculing or insulting anyone, only his parents and close friends are there, etc. What is inherent in hypnosis that will humiliate and pscyhologically damage a child?"
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 26, 2005 04:24AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-25 21:49, jimtron wrote:
"I'm still wondering, is it *inherently* wrong to hypnotize a kid. In other words, let's say the parents gave permission, the hypnotist is sensitive and kind, there's no coercion, he's not ridiculing or insulting anyone, only his parents and close friends are there, etc. What is inherent in hypnosis that will humiliate and pscyhologically damage a child?"
[/quote]
Jim,

You bring up some very good points. I think you've got a valid argument for it being ok to hypnotize children. I'll be honest, I can't think of a good LOGICAL argument against doing it. But for some reason that I don't know, it just seems or feels wrong. But again, I have nothing to back it up. You've made some very good points and have asked some very valid questions, and I can't debate any of them.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 26, 2005 04:51AM)
I am sorry for jumping in the middle of this, but it seems this is a touchy subject that I've started. Since the posting, I did take the show with the conditions that the only volunteers I will accept are at least 10 years old and also teachers can volunteer.

Now to my question; I know this is a magic forum, and please do not get offended by this question, but, how many of you that are voicing your opinions are actual full time hypnotists? I'm not talking about, "Oh I read Ormand McGill's book, so I know about hypnosis..." I want to know how many of you have actually performed hypnosis shows.

Again, please do not send hate mail, etc. It is just a question that will show me (and other hypnotists) that you actually know what you're talking about. It's just a question, don't sit at your computer for an hour telling me how I'm wrong for asking, or something like that.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 26, 2005 05:37AM)
As for me, I have absolutely no experience with hypnosis. I'm trying to learn more about it and also trying to understand the views of Café members.

jstone:

Thanks. I had a feeling that some were responding with their gut feelings, which of course can be very useful. But I think it's good to also think things through and ask ourselves and others, why? And when one calls another person amoral, I think they should back it up. My agenda isn't to prove that hypnosis for kids is good or bad, but to encourage thought, reflection, and discourse, and to go beyond knee-jerk reactions.
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Jul 26, 2005 06:54AM)
As for me, I am very interested in the whole subject of hypnosis and hypnotherapy.
I have a Diploma in Hypnotherapy (for what it is worth!) following a distance learning course.Without going into the long details.I also ended up spending a night in hospital after apparently self hypnotising myself a causing memory loss for over 8 hours.
As with others I feel there may be no valid reasons for hypnotising kids but something tellsme it shouldn't be done other than for medical problems or removing fear of say,going to the the dentist.

Howard
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 26, 2005 05:36PM)
See, I think this is very interesting. I asked the question above yesterday and only 2 people respond. Come on, there are 4 pages of why hypnotizing kids is bad, yet no one can stand up and say, "I am a hypnotist."?

I realize this is a forum where we can ask questions and answer at will, however, I do think that when it comes to something like this your answers need to be validated with some kind of experience in hypnosis, not just, "Oh, this seems like an interesting topic." Because when it all comes down to it, it is our own opinion about the matter.

It seems like I struck a chord with this question that resulted in 4 pages of answers from people who know a little about hypnosis or nothing at all. I think I could hae been better off asking, "Are you for or against abortion?"
Message: Posted by: Spinnato (Jul 26, 2005 07:28PM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-26 13:36, joshlondon wrote:
See, I think this is very interesting. I asked the question above yesterday and only 2 people respond. Come on, there are 4 pages of why hypnotizing kids is bad, yet no one can stand up and say, "I am a hypnotist."?

I realize this is a forum where we can ask questions and answer at will, however, I do think that when it comes to something like this your answers need to be validated with some kind of experience in hypnosis, not just, "Oh, this seems like an interesting topic." Because when it all comes down to it, it is our own opinion about the matter.

It seems like I struck a chord with this question that resulted in 4 pages of answers from people who know a little about hypnosis or nothing at all. I think I could hae been better off asking, "Are you for or against abortion?"
[/quote]
I'm a full time stage hypnotist and I think you're asking for trouble. TEN YEAR OLD KIDS? You don't find a problem with that?

I also have a problem believing that your client has a $2500 budget.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 26, 2005 07:34PM)
Spinnato:

I've been trying to understand the argument against hypnoizing kids, but so far I've heard very little in the way of explaining how exactly this is inherently bad. If you've read my posts, you know that I'm not saying it's good or bad, but I'm very curious to hear arguments from both sides. I would love to hear you elaborate on why hypnotizing kids is inherently problematic.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 26, 2005 07:41PM)
Now it is time to say something. First of all I can say hypnotising children at even the age of 10 is bad. I can say this for the same reason I can say murder is bad. I am not a murderer, but I can sure see it as bad.

As it works out I am a hypnotist, not clinical, I don't want the long term responsability, only entertainment. I offer no CD's only a show and some t-shirts. the line is quite clear for me black and white.

Hypnosis is wrong for children if for no other reason than your darned insurance policy! From a business standpoint you would have to be a complete buffoon to use children under 18.

From a law standpoint they can not enter into a contract legally. Period. This is what the age of majority is all about. YOU can be in huge trouble if something happnes to them as simple as tripping on a chair. Let alone if you end up with hysterical reactions. These can be dealt with in adults a LOT easier than children. Manifistations of deep seeded fears and such, are tough to deal with if you have to talk to them in what someone else suggested was "Their language".

My gut feeling is that this post is at least 1/2 bull. It seems to me your client does not have $2,500 to spend for 10 year olds. Even if they did, it would not be. It makes no sense. I think you found a market nobody else is actually in and want to see if it is a good idea to venture forth. Well the answer is no.

If the post is real the money is not worth it to say the least.

Just my 2 cents

Danny
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 26, 2005 07:45PM)
Aside from insurance and legal problems, is it unethical to hypnotize kids? If so, why? You mentioned murder. Is hypnosis inherently harmful to kids? If so, how?

As far as minors and contracts, I believe that a parent or guardian can sign a release.

For those of you against hypnosis, what do you think of Lee's post on this thread (about his experience hypnotizing young people)?
Message: Posted by: Spinnato (Jul 26, 2005 08:14PM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-26 15:41, Dannydoyle wrote:
Now it is time to say something. First of all I can say hypnotising children at even the age of 10 is bad. I can say this for the same reason I can say murder is bad. I am not a murderer, but I can sure see it as bad.

As it works out I am a hypnotist, not clinical, I don't want the long term responsability, only entertainment. I offer no CD's only a show and some t-shirts. the line is quite clear for me black and white.

Hypnosis is wrong for children if for no other reason than your darned insurance policy! From a business standpoint you would have to be a complete buffoon to use children under 18.

From a law standpoint they can not enter into a contract legally. Period. This is what the age of majority is all about. YOU can be in huge trouble if something happnes to them as simple as tripping on a chair. Let alone if you end up with hysterical reactions. These can be dealt with in adults a LOT easier than children. Manifistations of deep seeded fears and such, are tough to deal with if you have to talk to them in what someone else suggested was "Their language".

My gut feeling is that this post is at least 1/2 bull. It seems to me your client does not have $2,500 to spend for 10 year olds. Even if they did, it would not be. It makes no sense. I think you found a market nobody else is actually in and want to see if it is a good idea to venture forth. Well the answer is no.

If the post is real the money is not worth it to say the least.

Just my 2 cents

Danny
[/quote]
BRAVO ! Well said!
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 26, 2005 08:18PM)
I assume that Spinnato, Danny, et al don't think that hypnotizing children is directly harmful? It sounds like it's just that it can cause peripheral problems? When kids go on field trips, if their parents didn't sign releases, the school could have legal and/or insurance problems. Are field trips "just wrong"? If a kid participates in football, he could end up with a broken leg. Or he could drop the ball and get teased by other kids for being clumsy. Is football "just wrong"?
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 26, 2005 08:25PM)
[quote]I'm a full time stage hypnotist and I think you're asking for trouble. TEN YEAR OLD KIDS? You don't find a problem with that?

I also have a problem believing that your client has a $2500 budget.
[/quote]
I see no problem for hypnotizing kids, no one has given me a good excuse or answer as to why it is "bad."

As for the money, believe me or not (and to be honest, I could care less if you don't believe me) I got the deposit of $1,250.00 today in the mail with the signed contract. The way that the school could afford so much is because it is a private school and the tuition is a lot of money. I didn't really get into how they have the money, because I could care less.

So any good answers as to why I (or anyone else) shouldn't do this? Other than the usual, "It's morally wrong." Explain.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 26, 2005 08:27PM)
Other than the trouble of hysterical reactions? what about that. why am I bothering?
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 26, 2005 08:34PM)
Danny:

Sorry, maybe I've missed it, but as far as I can tell there has been virutally nothing on this thread explaining how hypnotizing children is directly harmful.

Are hysterical reactions an inherent reaction when hypnotizing kids? Let's assume that the hypnotist is a responsible, sensitive person who is careful about not causing trouble. Is there no way for him to do the hypnosis without harming the child?
Message: Posted by: Spinnato (Jul 26, 2005 08:46PM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-26 16:25, joshlondon wrote:

I see no problem for hypnotizing kids, no one has given me a good excuse or answer as to why it is "bad."

As for the money, believe me or not (and to be honest, I could care less if you don't believe me) I got the deposit of $1,250.00 today in the mail with the signed contract. The way that the school could afford so much is because it is a private school and the tuition is a lot of money. I didn't really get into how they have the money, because I could care less.

So any good answers as to why I (or anyone else) shouldn't do this? Other than the usual, "It's morally wrong." Explain.
[/quote]
If this needs to be explained to you, then I suggest full time consideration of another profession. That said, I wish you the best with this performance.


Posted: Jul 26, 2005 4:49pm
-------------------------------------
By the way Josh London. I'm curious. How long have you been a full time stage hypnotist and how many shows have you done? Your picture would indicate that you're quite young and maybe not so experienced in this type of venue.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 26, 2005 08:52PM)
[quote]If this needs to be explained to you, then I suggest full time consideration of another profession.
[/quote]
[quote]If you realy need to ask this you have serious issues.[/quote]
(Jordan, in response to someone asking him why hypnotizing kids is "appaling".)

Could you please humor us and explain? I'm sorry if I'm stupid, but I honestly don't understand why this is harmful. Why is it that some with experience hypnotizing kids say it's fine, but the people that say it's wrong refuse to explain why? I am sincerely baffled about this resitance to address the issue.

[quote]How long have you been a full time stage hypnotistand how many shows have you done?
[/quote]
Who are you adressing?


Posted: Jul 26, 2005 7:27pm
-------------------------------------
I see who you were addressing now, nevermind.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 27, 2005 01:18AM)
Spinnato,

I was expecting some kind of generic answer like that from you, however, that's ok. I've been doing hypnosis for since I was 15. I am now 24. I started doing shows when I was 16 and it just grew. As for how many shows I've done...I have a little over 1,000 signed contracts under my belt.

Also, I would like it explained to me, it seems that you nor no one else can give me a good reason.

Also, another question to get you thinking; What is the age cut off. Spinnato, you say it's wrong, that's fine, you have not given me a good explanation, it is just your moral beliefs and I respect that. But what is the minimum age you'll do a hypnosis show for?
Message: Posted by: Spinnato (Jul 27, 2005 04:09AM)
I'm done with this topic. I wish you well.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 27, 2005 04:17AM)
Thanks for participating. If you ever change your mind and want to explain why you think hypnosis for kids is bad; I'd love to hear your views on the topic.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 27, 2005 04:19AM)
I think I'm done too. After all the threads posted (something like 110) no one has given a good answer. Therefore, I must say that this is a matter of personal judgement.
Message: Posted by: Spinnato (Jul 27, 2005 04:20AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-27 00:19, joshlondon wrote:
Therefore, I must say that this is a matter of personal judgement.
[/quote]
Well said. When's the show? I'd like to know how it turns out.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 27, 2005 05:01AM)
To be honest, I already did the show, I just wanted to see what everyone thought about hypnotizing children. And believe me or not, it was a great show and everyone loved it. The show was July 14th.
Message: Posted by: The Gentleman (Jul 27, 2005 09:41AM)
Bottom line: Kids are developing, constantly so. Placing them in a highly suggestible state for any length of time might have unforseen consequences or alter them in a never-knowledgeable way.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 27, 2005 05:17PM)
[quote]It should be so obvious that we don't have to explain it to you in the first place. Kind of like telling you not to fly to close to the sun. We already figure if you are a professional you HAVE the info already. The sun is hot don't go seems silly to say.
[/quote]
Flying too close to the sun will cause great physical harm or death. Are you saying that hypnotizing kids is inherently harmful? How? As far as professionals having the info about hypnotizing kids: Ormond McGill says it's ok, and Lee Darrow, another professional, has 20 years of experience hypnotizing kids with no problems. That doesn't mean it's perfectly safe. But I, as a non-professional, who knows little about hypnosis, am curious about this issue. So far I've only heard first-hand accounts from the folks who say it's not inherently bad. I'd like to hear the other side of the issue.

Why won't you guys explain why you think it's bad? I'm mystified by the resistance to explain why it's bad, when you're perfectly happy to say that it is bad.
Message: Posted by: Bob Baker (Jul 27, 2005 05:20PM)
Josh:

I'm a physician trained in medical hypnosis. In addition, I paid for my medical education performing hypnosis in the Catskill resorts. Hundreds of shows. I'm 53 years old. I have some experience. In hypnosis and in life.

I would not have accepted the show you were offered. I think the risks would be too high. You are dealing with a vulnerable population (vulnerable to ridicule from peers, vulnerable to adverse reactions to hypnosis you can't predict nor are trained to deal with). Further, you open yourself up to great liability. As I mentioned, children legally cannot give informed consent. If anything untoward had happened, you and the school would have been at great financial risk. As someone else pointed out, even if a child had merely tripped and fallen off the stage, an angry parent with a hungry lawyer could have caused you great misery--both personal and financial.

Of course, you are free to reject the advice of those more experienced than you, as you did. However, I hope you will give careful consideration to such potentially risky gigs in the future. Just because one gets away with driving 90 mph on I-95 one time does not make it a wise thing to have done nor to do again.

Bob
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 27, 2005 05:27PM)
Bob:

Thanks for your input. You brought up some good points that others have brought up: being teased, liability, consent. But do you think it is inherently harmful to hypnotize kids, or just that there are potential peripheral concerns?

The concerns you mentioned are of course significant; but I'm still curious about whether the actual act of hypnosis is directly harmful to a child.
Message: Posted by: Spinnato (Jul 27, 2005 05:37PM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-27 13:27, jimtron wrote:
Bob:

Thanks for your input. You brought up some good points that others have brought up: being teased, liability, consent. But do you think it is inherently harmful to hypnotize kids, or just that there are potential peripheral concerns?

The concerns you mentioned are of course significant; but I'm still curious about whether the actual act of hypnosis is directly harmful to a child.
[/quote]
How many times are you going to ask this question???
Are you not satisfied with the answers you've been given?
[b]Please ...put this **** issue to bed![/b]
Message: Posted by: Bob Baker (Jul 27, 2005 05:42PM)
No, I don't think that hypnosis is itself inherently harmful. It is used therapeutically frequently in children. I myself have used it to help children prepare for upcoming surgery. It was wonderful to reduce their anxiety and improve their post-operative course.*

However, hypnosis cannot be taken out of context. I think that a stage performance has the potential to harm a child--not deep long-lasting psychological harm--but embarrassment in front of peers, adverse reaction, etc. Why put a child at even minimal risk simply for the sake of entertainment or a few bucks? Children are precious and potentially fragile (I have 7, so I speak from experience!) We should honor and elevate them, something which a performance of stage hypnosis simply is not designed to do.

Bob


* See my book "Successful Surgery: A Doctor's Mind-Body Guide to Help You Through Surgery" published by Pocket Books.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 27, 2005 05:55PM)
[quote]
How many times are you going to ask this question???
Are you not satisfied with the answers you've been given?
[b]Please ...put this **** issue to bed![/b]
[/quote]
Spinnato:

Earlier on this thread you said you were done with this topic. If you prefer not to participate, that is certainly you're prerogative. If myself and others are still interested, is there any reason why we shouldn't continue discussing it? No, I haven't been satisfied with "it's just wrong, and if you don't know why then I'm not going to tell you."

Why are you so eager to end this conversation?

Bob:

Thanks for answering the question directly. Do you have an opinion on Lee Darrow's post about his experiences with kids? At what age do you think it's relatively safe for stage hypnoism? Or is it dangerous at any age?
Message: Posted by: Bob Baker (Jul 27, 2005 06:04PM)
Though I don't know Lee personally, his posts are thoughtful and he clearly speaks with the authority of training and experience. And from Lee's picture I'm guessing that he's not 24 years old. :) What he does works for him, and I respect that.

I have done stage shows for kids in high school. That would be my personal lower age limit.

Bob
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 27, 2005 06:07PM)
Bob:

I appreciate your feedback.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 27, 2005 08:02PM)
I have to agree with Bob. It is all personal judgement and since he seems to be the only one who has good credentials, I tend to listen to him more. Thanks Bob!

As for Danny, I don't need to explain myself to you. However, I will (and I'll be accepting some stupid response from you, it's just the way some people work). I booked the show, then asked the question. As for lies, yes, I did lie about that one, but I can assure you this, I have done over 1,000 hypnosis programs, and did start when I was 15. I did my first (magic) show for Sony when I was 15. I was dabbling in hypnosis at that age.

Anyhow, I'd appreciate it if you'd not call me a liar, and instead give a good response as to why hypnotizing kids are bad. I don't really think you can, I don't know you and you don't know me, but I don't think you have the slighest clue about hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Jul 27, 2005 08:10PM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-12 13:54, joshlondon wrote:
I got a call today from a cient in Charleston West Viginia today. He wants to book my Comedy Hypnosis Show at his elementary school. I was wondering if anyone has done hypnosis for children? I never have, I do exclusive corporate shows, however they were able to get me my fee of $2500 plus travel/lodging (which I find quite strange, but money is money).

Anyway, my question is: If you have done hypnosis shows for children, what were your experiences? I currently use Dave Elman's script and Geoff Ronning's EKG induction, any advice would be helpful if I should take this shoow or not.

Thanks!
[/quote]
This is obviously a joke... right?
Message: Posted by: Richard Busch (Jul 27, 2005 08:15PM)
Long before this thread got where it is, I wrote Lee privately, telling him of my respect and regard for him.

Now, I just want to support the posts of Dr. Bob Baker. There is great wisdom and experience there, on many levels, and I sincerely hope that interested parties heed his advice.

Sincerely,
Richard Busch
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 27, 2005 08:31PM)
Just trying io imagine this discussion taking place in the UK amongst British hypnotherapists...
Nope... I'm trying... but I'm not getting there...

Please understand that the above comments are not made in a derogatory fashion. I am merely pointing out the vast differences within our cultures and our everyday lives concerning the morals of this thing we call hypnosis.

The discussion is potentially hugely interesting. My emotional mind tells me it's absolutely the wrong thing to do, however my intellect is suggesting I listen to the arguments.
I have to say that up until now I remain sceptical, however...
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 27, 2005 08:57PM)
Bobser:

Feel free to elaborate on why you think it's wrong. I think it's good to hear many opinions from all viewpoints.


Posted: Jul 27, 2005 5:22pm
----------------------------------------
Feel free to discuss lying and whether or not Josh really got the gig or not. Regardless of Josh and his gig, I'm still interested in discussin the ethical implications of hypnosis and children.
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Jul 28, 2005 08:39AM)
Okay, I am assuming that this is not a joke then. I would strongly urge you against doing this. I can't imagine for one minute a representative for a school would even entertain this anyway.

If a person is professional enough to ethically practice in any region of hypnosis then they have the sommon sense and intellect to realise the inherant dangers, not just of something which might happen but the consequences of things which happen on many levels and even other issues like a parent who wants to make a quick buck.

There are many things that you will also understand very well seeing as you are a trained hypnotist, right? Like the fact that if you are not 110% clear on your voice, timeline, intonation, candence and language patterns then you can potentially be installing ticking timebombs in children's minds and, as you know, you don't even have to use "official" hypnosis on children to affect them.

Before I finish, let me ask you this. What are the percentages that you could have a child up on stage who has issues and may abreact. Are you ready for that? Are you ready for the reaction of the school and parents of every child, the papers?

Even though I am still not sure that thie original post was a genuine one, I must still advise you to stay clear. Please.

Don't forget we are dealing with little people who have to take home a not for their parent or guardian to sign for going on a school trip.... and you want to play with their subconscious?

Children, in school have no choice as to whether they are there or not. If a child does not like something that happens in class, they can tell the teacher but they have no means of getting out of the building and getting home.

Being part of a stage hypnosis show during a school event is child abuse, no if's, no buts.

If it happened to my kids I would report the performer to social services, the school to the authorities, I would take it to the media and I would be certain to show the performer that hypnosis was not the only way of inducing a deep, relaxed state.


Posted: Jul 28, 2005 4:54am
--------------------------------------
[quote]
On 2005-07-13 06:41, Jordan Waller wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-07-12 15:53, joshlondon wrote:
Jordan, why do you say that?
[/quote]
If you realy need to ask this you have serious issues.

It is just morally wrong to do this.

Children are innocent beings that do not need humiliating or being psychologicaly ****** up in front of a crowd of all their peers. Especialy in this day and age.
[/quote]
Exactly. Look at it this way, if you do the show you will be benefitting the economy in another 20 years or so because the children who are going to grow up and be ETHICAL CARING therapists will have the subjects of your show as patients.

Children are still exploring and developing their emotinal intelligence and maps of the world, do you think they have the inherant social skills and emotional intelligence to deal with the situations there would be put in?
Message: Posted by: RKappe (Jul 28, 2005 09:00AM)
One of the dangers of hypnotizing children is they will emulate what you do. I did a summer camp show several years ago and only used staff members as I was apprehensive using children. while I constantly insure SAFETY during a performance, the children attempting to emulate you will not. I have heard kids attempting to hypnotize each other and the commands they attempt to give are less than fun. A summer camp nurse told me of a girl hypnotized by fellow campers and couldn't bend her knees for three hours as she had been told her knees were glued straight. In high school a classmate of mine was hypnotized at a paty and the person doing it keep telling him he couldn't breath. He began to gasp for air (WE MADE HIM STOP) I have developed a family hypnosis show that includes children with adults on stage and it has been very successful. The show almost always gets a standing ovation. No one is made to feel foolish, and the induction is made to appear very complicated to disuade "aspiring hypnotists". To be frank I never have people hump chairs or make out with brooms (I'VE SEEN IT DONE). These are cheap laughs at anothers expense. You can be creative and entertaining without humiliating people. Without competent instruction, experience and insurance, hypnotizing anyone is highly irresponsible. Hypnotizing children is not imorale. Exploiting them is.
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 28, 2005 09:36AM)
RKappe, I agree with you when you say that "exploiting children is not moral." I never ever, even in a private party show (or corporate for that matter) make fun of anyone. Years ago I used to do the bit where someone spoke Chinese and there was a translator. I got a great response from that, however, as I performed more and more, I realized that I might offend someone. No one ever said anything about that bit, but I felt uncomfortable doing it so I changed it.

I would be interested in hearing a bit more about how you (Rkappe) stop "immitators." I would think the kids will immitate you if they want to, regardless of what you say.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 28, 2005 04:01PM)
Josh are you EVER going to adress hysterical reactions and how do deal with them in children? You pick and choose what you want to adress. [b]This[/b] is the primary reason NOT to do it.

Gambituk is [b]right[/b] 100% when he says it is child abuse to have them part of a hypnosis show. Said it perfectly.

And at 24 what makes you think you have anything lecture worthy? Most guys are in the business 24 years before they figure they can start lecturing.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 28, 2005 04:44PM)
[quote]One of the dangers of hypnotizing children is they will emulate what you do.
[/quote]
This could also happen if children were in the audience of a show where adults are getting hypnotized.

[quote]rson is professional enough to ethically practice in any region of hypnosis then they have the sommon sense and intellect to realise the inherant dangers...
[/quote]
gambituk1: what exactly are the inherent dangers in your view?

thanks,

Jim
Message: Posted by: RKappe (Jul 28, 2005 05:47PM)
Josh,
On stopping imitators. Most hypnotists that I've encountered rush through the induction. They make it look easy. The thought then is I can do it too.

I aproach the induction as part of the entertainment and not something boring to get through to get to the "FUN STUFF". I've seen Hypnotists even apologize that they will be boring the audience briefly (DO NOT KILL THE ENTERTAINMENT POTENTIAL OF ANYTHING YOU DO). Make your induction mysterious and magical and appear sophisticated. It will become entertaining in and of itself. As corny as this sounds it will add credibility to your show. The "aspiring hypnotists" don't find it so easy to copy you. If they copy you, chances are they won't succeed.

I did a show in Reno. The star of the show was a 7 year old. Her father was a physician and gave her permission to participate. The physician that hired me said he was skeptical about hypnosis in general but I made him a beliver. He atributed this to my induction process. Until me. he had seen the speed induction and gave it little credibility.

Hypnosis with children is an elaborate form of role playing. Children do this naturally. Make your skits fun for them. Relate to things they already do and you'll have no problems. You want them to appear cool and envied by those watching. This is when making them the stars is critical and a template for a successful show.

Children self-Hypnotize on a regular basis. Try to get their attention while they're on the compter or playing a video game!!! I believe that putting them in trance is not the problem. What you do with them in trance is the real issue.
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 29, 2005 02:04AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-28 13:47, RKappe wrote:
You want them to appear cool and envied by those watching. This is when making them the stars is critical and a template for a successful show.
[/quote]
RKappe,

I appreciate your post. I do, however, have a concern with the above comment. Isn't it dangerous to put a child in a situation where he is envied by those watching? That's the stuff that gets kids beat up. Young kids who have serious attitude problems end up beating up kids that they envy. Your thoughts?
Message: Posted by: RKappe (Jul 29, 2005 03:46AM)
In response to kids being beaten up for being envied then letting kids help you with a magic effect could yield the same result. My point is that a lot of the apprehension eminates from the notion that the hypnotist will replace the adults with children. We have G movies PG movies R movies... Just as we adjust our magic material for the audience census a good hypnotist will do the same for their shows. The envy comes from wishing they were participating too. Nothing long term or deeper than that. If you take the average adult hypnosis show it usually is perceived as "look what that guy can make them do". Blue material is used to milk a cheap laugh which is realy a laugh of releif from the audience thankful they're not on stage. I truly make stars out of my participants. That is why the show gets a standing ovation. It's not for me it's for them.

If envy got children beaten up then don't let them play musical instruments, excel in sports, or displaY ANY acheivment in any way lest they fall victim to beatings. I think everyone has gone back and forth a little too much on this thread and are reading into everything a little too much. A child that would beat another out of envy is seriously messed up and should be treated by professionals. I have never heard of a child being beaten after a show.
Perhaps [b]"admired"[/b] would have served better than [b]"envied"[/b].
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 29, 2005 05:31PM)
Ok now you have a child on stage hysterical. Not just throwing up but hysterical. As Ormond tells us in his now famous encyclopedia, you talk to them in their own language. Now don't you think calming a child who is hysterical at age 10 will be tough? THIS has been my point and when you asked about dangers it was my main concern.

[b]You[/b] don't seem qualified to make sure they are safe if you have to ask these questions.
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Jul 29, 2005 11:42PM)
[quote]
Some people think there is nothing wrong with hypnotizing children (at least one person with extensive firsthand experience). Gambituk1 has said that it's child abuse.
[/quote]
I didn't say that [b]at all[/b] and I do not appreciate being misquoted. I am an Ericksonian hynotherapist and have used hypnosis in the ***correct context*** for people of ALL ages. I backed up what I said by saying that hypnosis in [b]the context framed in my post[/b] was child abuse.

Either read the posts and info people give to back them up or stop trying to fuel the fire.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 29, 2005 11:49PM)
Gambituk1:

I'm sorry if I did not accurately quote you. To avoid any misrepresentation, I have quoted the entire post in question (see below).

Thanks,

Jim

[quote]
On 2005-07-28 04:39, gambituk1 wrote:
Okay, I am assuming that this is not a joke then. I would strongly usrge you against doing this. I can't imagine for one minute a representative for a school would even entertain this anyway.

If a person is professional enough to ethically practice in any region of hypnosis then they have the sommon sense and intellect to realise the inherant dangers, not just of something which might happen but the consequences of things which happen on many levels and even other issues like a parent who wants to make a quick buck.

There are many things that you will also understand very well seeing as you are a trained hypnotist, right? Like the fact that if you are not 110% clear on your voice, timeline, intonation, candence and language patterns then you can potentially be installing ticking timebombs in children's minds and, as you know, you don't even have to use "official" hypnosis on children to affect them.

Before I finish, let me ask you this. What are the percentages that you could have a child up on stage who has issues and may abreact. Are you ready for that? Are you ready for the reaction of the school and parents of every child, the papers?

Even though I am still not sure that thie original post was a genuine one, I must still advise you to stay clear. Please.

Don't forget we are dealing with little people who have to take home a not for their parent or guardian to sign for going on a school trip.... and you want to play with their subconscious?

Children, in school have no choice as to whether they are there or not. If a child does not like something that happens in class, they can tell the teacher but they have no means of getting out of the building and getting home.

*****Being part of a stage hypnosis show during a school event is child abuse, no if's, no buts.*****

If it happened to my kids I would report the performer to social services, the school to the authorities, I would take it to the media and I would be certain to show the performer that hypnosis was not the only way of inducing a deep, relaxed state.
[/quote]
(asterisks added)

Ok, thanks. I look forward to discussing this topic further with anyone who would like to express their views. For those of you who are tired of this topic, there are thousands of others here at the Café.
Message: Posted by: jstone (Jul 30, 2005 02:02AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-28 23:46, RKappe wrote:
In response to kids being beaten up for being envied then letting kids help you with a magic effect could yeild the same result. My point is that a lot of the apprehension eminates from the notion that the hypnotist will replace the adults with children. We have G movies PG movies R movies... Just as we adjust our magic material for the audience census a good hypnotist will do the same for their shows. The envy comes from wishing they were participating too. Nothing long term or deeper than that. If you take the average adult hypnosis show it usually is perceived as "look what that guy can make them do". Blue material is used to milk a cheap laugh which is realy a laugh of releif from the audience thankful they're not on stage. I truly make stars out of my participants. That is why the show gets a standing ovation. It's not for me it's for them.

If envy got children beaten up then don't let them play musical instruments, excel in sports, or displaY ANY acheivment in any way lest they fall victim to beatings. I think everyone has gone back and forth a little too much on this thread and are reading into everything a little too much. A child that would beat another out of envy is seriously messed up and should be treated by proffesionals. I have never heard of a child being beaten after a show.
Perhaps "ADMIRED" would have served better than"ENVIED".
[/quote]

RKappe,

All excellent points. Thanks for the post.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 30, 2005 06:30PM)
Here is my final problem with children and hypnosis. Actually it has been demonstrated throughout this thread. Children are a protected class in this country. A crime comitted on a child carries a worse sentence than that same crime on an adult. Not saying hypnosis is a crime, just making a point.

Lets say for the sake of your arguement that hypnosis is [b]no more dangerous[/b] than it is for adults. Ok, being a trained hypnotist you know there ARE very real dangers. So why would you subject the little ones to that danger? IF something happens the reaction from the masses will be unbelievable, even [b]with[/b] prior parental concent. It is a risk [b]not[/b] worth taking, forget the moral and ethical implications as they are fluid with each performer it seems.

The point really is WHY risk it. People jump to the defence of children. Imagine the news coverage if something simple happened like a sprained ankle. Lots of movement and reactions these things happen. Insureance will [b]not[/b] cover it I promise you, then you are in for it big time.

Which brings me to my next point who insures you in the first place that you can do kids shows with the hypnosis. I can't imagine anyone does to tell the truth. Actually I have trouble imagining a place to certify you at the age of 15 and trouble figuring out how you became a hypnotist that early. It makes no logical sense, and see this is some of the problems that I and a few others here have with the post.

Again saftey of [b]anyone[/b] hypnotised is [b]the[/b] paramount concern of the hypnotist. [b]Evem above his or her own![/b] Of this there can be no arguement. If your not a trained to deal with children spacifically you have [b]no]/b] business doing hypnosis shows for them spacifically plain and simple. No insureance is unsafe so if you can't find an insurance provider to cover it you shouldn't do it.(and I refuse to believe you can). Sounds like the question is answered. You can keep looking for someone to agree with you, but a trained professional, I doubt it.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 30, 2005 08:54PM)
[quote]The point really is WHY risk it.
[/quote]
For me, I'm not asking about this because I'm considering doing a show involving hypnotizing children. I'm curious about what exactly hypnosis is and how it affects people. That's why I've been asking about the inherent danger (if any).

[quote]Lets say for the sake of your arguement that hypnosis is NO MORE DANGEROUS than it is for adults. Ok, being a trained hypnotist you know there ARE very real dangers.
[/quote]
What are some of the dangers of hypnotizing adults? Also, is this true with both stage hypnosis and hypnotherapy?
Message: Posted by: joshlondon (Jul 31, 2005 01:54AM)
Danny, for the first time, I agree with you. Which is suprising to me. I don't need to explain how I started doing hypnosis when I was 15, but I'll tell you if it intrigues you that much, just let me know. As for this thread, I think it is all up to our own beliefs, for me personally, I see nothing wrong with it. I am not hypnotizing kids that are 6-7, but rather 10,11, and up. In fact the human mind isn't fully developed until the early 20's, so with that said is it even safe to do a high school show?

There hasn't been much facts given to support anyone's opinion, because they are just that opinions. I respect and read everyone's posts, then conclude my own belief. There is no changing what one believes, so it is a never ending cyclye, here we are on page 6 already.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Jul 31, 2005 04:09AM)
Do you guys think we've aired this stuff out enough, and now we could get back on topic? Perhaps if some of you feel some of this stuff is unresolved between each other, either you could PM each other, or start a new thread. I was hoping we could continue discussing the issue of hypnois and children. Or should I start a new children/hypnosis thread?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 1, 2005 02:52PM)
This topic is actually more contentious than religion.

jmtron are you a hypnotist>? I ask because you should [b]know[/b] the dangers. If not then the dangers are spelled out in MANY sourses from Erickson to Grinder (may be spelled wrong.). As I said doing this to children is no more dangerous than it is with adults, but when people jump to defend children so quickly, why risk any danger?

Forget ethical, ( because it is a personal question ) just go for business. It would be the [b]worst[/b] thing that could happen to anyones business to have a hurt child in the newspaper for your show. Hypnosis already has enough trouble in the public eye and a hurt child will definitely fuel that fire to say the least.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Aug 1, 2005 04:57PM)
No, I'm not a hypnotist. As I said a few posts up, I'm not curious about this because I want to hypnotize children, but because I'm interested in learning more about how hypnosis affects people. So for me personally, the questions of "why risk danger" or, "is this bad for business" are not releveant. I don't plan on hypnotizing anyone.
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Aug 2, 2005 03:28AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-27 13:42, Bob Baker wrote:
No, I don't think that hypnosis is itself inherently harmful. It is used therapeutically frequently in children. I myself have used it to help children prepare for upcoming surgery. It was wonderful to reduce their anxiety and improve their post-operative course.*

However, hypnosis cannot be taken out of context. I think that a stage performance has the potential to harm a child--not deep long-lasting psychological harm--but embarrassment in front of peers, adverse reaction, etc. Why put a child at even minimal risk simply for the sake of entertainment or a few bucks? Children are precious and potentially fragile (I have 7, so I speak from experience!) We should honor and elevate them, something which a performance of stage hypnosis simply is not designed to do.

Bob
[/quote]
Some excellent points, Dr. Bob, many of which I dealt with in my earlier post. [b]Every[/b] performance that uses human volunteers has the potential for harm of the kind you note - embarrassmant and even adverse reactions can occur in the so-called "normal" waking state just as easily as in hypnosis, as any psychologist will testify in court.

By the way, just out of curiosity, are you aware of any show where a child did suffer harm (other than something like a slip and fall, which could happen in any show) from participating in a hypnosis show? I have been searching for years for a credible source of such a report and have yet to find a single one that was not third-hand and/or did not have other, mitigating circumstances surrounding the situation.

Your points on stage falls are accurate only to the point that anyone who uses audience volunteers takes the same liability issue into account when they perform - party game organizers are especially prone to this issue, yet they flourish in this litigious society we live in. Why? Because kids like to have fun and parents like their kids to have fun. And that's why it is prudent for ANY performer to carry a hefty liability insurancy policy, regardless of what kind of show they do.

Back on track - to me, the key to performing in these venues is to structure the act to eliminate the embarrassment and the probability of adverse reaction (properly "abreaction" I might add) so that the volunteers have just as much fun, perhaps even more fun, than the audience watching the show itself.

So, if one is going to take on the unique challenge of performing in these admittedly daunting environs, one has to change the way one thinks as a stage hypnotist.

I have always felt that the traditional approach to stage hypnosis had a slight undertone of sadism to them to begin with. When I started out in the business, I worked very hard to eliminate that undertone as I had grown up in a family where that sort of thing was simply not allowed (my father was a cartoonist, which probably explains a lot) and I was the neighborhood "Charlie Brown" character in many ways. I don't like being embarassed, so I structure my shows so that aspect is minimized or eliminated, completely.

By approaching the show as a series of "Let's Pretend" exercises and "Make Believe" games, but where the events seem much more real, the show goes into an improvisational theater games kind of format. The kids learn and explore, have fun, a lot of laughs, yet not at anyone else's expense.

In fact, the object of the exercise is to make sure that the next time I visit, every kid that saw the last show wants to "come up and play" because it was such a cool experience for their friends!

If that's dangerous or abusive, then even the former chairman of the American Medical Association in Chicago disagrees with you as he's seen my show and enjoyed it, thoroughly, several years ago and why several of the local chapters of the AMA here in the area and why the Society of GastroEnterological Nurses and Associates (for example) have had me, and are having me back for their national conference, as well as the American College of Physicians and Surgeons National Convention a few years ago, too.

Respect for the volunteers is all too rare in magic and stage hypnotism these days. I guess I just come at the biz in a different way. My goal is to have every member of the audience wishing that they HAD volunteered to be part of the show by the time I'm done for the evening because it was so much fun for the volunteers as well as for the audience.

Maybe if more stage hypnotists had that goal, the public's impression of stage hypnosis, wouldn't be so negative.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.H.

My new ebook on Safety for the Stage Hypnotist and Lecturer is now available - PM me with your requests for further information. - LD
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 17, 2005 07:15PM)
The only question is why submit children to any danger? Even slip and fall. This can be blown way out of proportion.

I know Lee personally and know for a [b]fact[/b] that he takes better care of his volunteers than anyone else I can name. He has 20+ (with the emphasis on [b]plus[/b]) years of experience in both entertaining, and therapy. A member of the NGH and nowhere near enough room without getting a cramp from typing to give his credits and certs.

The point is that a credited person such as Lee doing the show is a [b]lot[/b] different than someone not as well experienced. Also I may add that the likelyhood of a slip and fall is greatley reduced with [b]him[/b] doing the show. Many of us are used to the comedy club atomosphere or college post prom free for all atmosphere. It is tough to switch in and out. Lee happens to be able to do it. I PERSONALLY could not. That is my own personal limitation so I know it and work with it. I will use the kids, but send them back early in the show. Just a preference and a little nod to Murphy's Law knowing it will bite me in the but. I avoid using them though and never will do a show for them alone.
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Aug 17, 2005 09:00PM)
[quote]The only question is why submit children to any danger? Even slip and fall. This can be blown way out of proportion.[/quote]

If hypnotising children is inherently dangerous, then hypnotizing them would be submitting them to danger, which would be unacceptable. But after reading all the posts on this thread, I haven't seen a good argument that it is inherently dangerous. Clearly it's not something to take lightly, and of course precautions should be taken. That's the case with adult hypnotism too, I believe.

If you take kids to camp you must take precautions and make sure to be careful and responsible; but they could still get badly injured. But I wouldn't call it unethical or amoral or inherently dangerous to send kids to camp.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Aug 17, 2005 09:27PM)
I think the inherent danger would be for the hypnotist. The press over here would have a field day if some teacher tried to link a bout of depression to a hypnosis show. Whether it was true or not. And since teenagers are prone to depression even suicide in some cases I would be very wary about doing shows for kids..

Shrink