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Topic: Tooth and nail ? (Impossible object)
Message: Posted by: papawemba (Jul 25, 2005 04:18AM)
Hello,

Here is a great puzzle !
It is made of 2 pieces : a nail, a piece of wood carves in a specific shape.
The idea is not to take out the nail but just think on how it has been inserted.
The wood used can be softwood and hardwood, no cut, glue, wood cement,...

Image exemple : http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/Scuppers/Impossible.jpg

Any idea? Good luck... :)

Nicolas
Message: Posted by: dr chutney (Jul 25, 2005 06:58AM)
I could see that you could recreate this quite easily with four pieces of bolt, with the nut covering two ends. But, you did say one nail (bolt), which does make it tricky ...

Of course we can't see the other side of the wood. If it's completely open you could just slide the bolt into place and from this side it looks like it's threaded through holes.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 25, 2005 07:40AM)
When you get wood wet, it can bend. Fine woodwork uses this principle to make nice curves and also to fix warped panels.
Message: Posted by: papawemba (Jul 25, 2005 08:05AM)
Hello,

Same paradox object but with nail and different view:
http://www.johnrausch.com/PuzzleWorld/puz/img/tooth_and_nail_1.jpg

In this one, we can clearly see the nail going thru de hole!

"When you get wood wet, it can bend”: Only for softwood I guess. Can hardwood also bend after a few hours in the water? For this puzzle, hardwood can also be use, so I don't think it was bend to insert the nail/bolt, but maybe...

Nicolas
Message: Posted by: dr chutney (Jul 25, 2005 10:46AM)
Nicolas

Some interesting impossible objects on that site. I like the Rubik's Cube in bottle.

That doesn't help me with this bolt though.
Message: Posted by: mike paris (Jul 25, 2005 12:01PM)
I've worked out a possible solution but I don't know if it's right.
Drive the nail into the tree so that the nail goes under the surface. Each year the tree grows the bark will grow over the nail, and so after 5 years cut above and below the nail, then cut out the sections of wood so that it looks like the finished puzzle. mike
Message: Posted by: papawemba (Jul 25, 2005 12:28PM)
Maybe Jonathan Townsend is right after all.
I should try with some wood to see what's going on, how much it will bend, etc..

This well know site http://www.johnrausch.com is great for other puzzle and impossible object...

mike paris: I like when people to who I show this give your solution :)


Nicolas
Message: Posted by: papawemba (Jul 28, 2005 09:50AM)
In the other hand, on the second picture tooth_and_nail_1.jpg, both side (height) are small and bottom seem very solid.
I don't see where it can bend !?

White night will continue :)

Nicolas
Message: Posted by: Mehtas (Jul 28, 2005 03:55PM)
Cant be done without bending the bolt. I think its been bend with something industrial and pushed it.

:kewl:
Message: Posted by: Mehtas (Jul 28, 2005 07:31PM)
Maybe the bolt is pushed thru when its RED HOT.

Its soft and threads in like a rope. I think that is the only possible explanation to that.


:kewl:
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 28, 2005 08:26PM)
With add respect to mehtas, I'm lost as to how a red hot bolt would not burn the wood and also keep its threads.
Message: Posted by: mike paris (Jul 29, 2005 02:31AM)
Papa,do you know how its done?are you sure there is no glue? because the only other way that I can think is the solution is,if you throw the piece of wood down on the floor so that it breaks apart in two, then the screw can be inserted and reassembled,apart from that, is to find out who sells them to see if they know.
Message: Posted by: papawemba (Jul 29, 2005 03:51AM)
I found 3 places that sells this kind of object.
Here is one but in a different format : http://www.toysfromtimespast.com/toys/safet2.htm

For my point of view,
1. In http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/Scuppers/Impossible.jpg
I think the wood can be bend without to much trouble. Bend the wood, drill hole in center, place the bold, bend back the side in original position.

2. http://www.johnrausch.com/PuzzleWorld/puz/img/tooth_and_nail_1.jpg
I see on the left side a hole ! Wich is not in the other version. Does this hole go all the way thru the left layer ? (missing information...) I think in this case, the hole is done before any bending in 3 layers (layer is the right name in english ?) on left. After I think the right layer is not bend (I think this is impossible to bend this small layer) but crushed (!) so the screw can be inserted by the right...

I am just guessing here...

Nicolas
Message: Posted by: Mehtas (Jul 29, 2005 04:58AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-28 21:26, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
With add respect to mehtas, I'm lost as to how a red hot bolt would not burn the wood and also keep its threads.
[/quote]
Yes, but the threads can be remade on the visible parts after the bolt is threaded and gone cold. Not something for a beginner I'm sure. ;) All you have to do is bend the bolt a little when its red hot and thread it carefully without touching the inner holes of the block. you can even soak the block so it won't take as much heat.

It a;l comes down to what metal the bolt or nail is made of.

Sounds possible??

As for the bending the block of wood, My feelings are that you'll have to bend it to such an angle that it might tear the block. I mean this is wood, not rubber.

Then again it might be true.

:kewl:
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Jul 29, 2005 03:23PM)
Didn't any of you guys take "shop" in High School. LOL
Message: Posted by: Bill Hallahan (Jul 29, 2005 03:38PM)
What appears to be a threaded rod is actually four separate threaded rods. One is inserted in the left section and one in the the right section. The juxtaposition of the two sections in the middle is covered by the nut, which also connects them. Superglue could be used to connect everything metal, including the nut, so it seems to be one object.

Another method is to insert the bolt into the trunk of a growing tree and allowing the tree to grow around it. Later cut down the tree and cut away the undesired wood. I don't know if that idea is possible, but it sounds like it might work.
Message: Posted by: Mehtas (Jul 29, 2005 03:49PM)
Bill,

The maker claims Both the nail and the wood are whole. Neither has been cut.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hallahan (Jul 29, 2005 03:56PM)
Oh, perhaps there is a groove cut in the back of the wood that we can't see that has been filled in. Ah, better still, the wood on the outside is panels?

Oh, I guess neither being cut means no panels. So perhaps we'd see something if we saw the back?
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Jul 29, 2005 03:57PM)
They are whole. Wooden puzzle makers can keep secrets too. But it is true that wood can be soaked, steamed and shaped. That much I do know.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hallahan (Jul 29, 2005 04:00PM)
Thanks Vandy Grift. I figured either the wood had to be malleable or the bolt if no other guesses were correct. I agree with Jonathan, hot metal would burn the wood.

The bolt could be a material that melts at a low temperature, i.e. not a normal bolt. But I expect that it's a normal bolt.

Some bolts can be bent, but it would be difficult without ruining the threads. Perhaps a special vice grip tool could be made to grab the bolt. Then the bolt could be bent at the end, inserted and then straightned with a tool whil being bent further back, inserted some more, etc.
Message: Posted by: papawemba (Jul 29, 2005 05:00PM)
I also see another problem !
How the hole was drilled !?
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Jul 29, 2005 06:27PM)
I don't understand why people are still talking about the bolt in the first picture. The bolt is NORMAL. The secret has already been exposed in the thread. Perhaps you need to hold it in your hand to understand how to drill the hole and instert the bolt. Oh, the wood is all ONE piece too.

The second pic same basic idea/method, just slightly modified.

s
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 29, 2005 08:50PM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-29 19:27, the Sponge wrote:
I don't understand why people are still talking about the bolt in the first pic. The bolt is NORMAL. the secret has already been exposed in the thread. perhaps you ...
[/quote]
Perhaps you would concisely explain the thing?
Message: Posted by: Bill Hallahan (Jul 29, 2005 11:25PM)
The Sponge wrote:
[quote]
I don't understand why people are still talking about the bolt in the first picture.
[/quote]
I will tell you the answer to that puzzle if you tell us the answer to the original posted puzzle. :)
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Jul 30, 2005 12:45AM)
[quote]
On 2005-07-29 16:57, Vandy Grift wrote:
They are whole. Wooden puzzle makers can keep secrets too. But it is true that wood can be soaked, steamed and shaped. That much I do know.
[/quote]

s
Message: Posted by: Mehtas (Jul 30, 2005 01:19AM)
I've been told by the maker of that puzzle

"The wood is not bent or twisted. Water is involved"


:kewl:
Message: Posted by: papawemba (Jul 30, 2005 04:07AM)
Not bent or twisted !!!!!?
It's getting crazier :)
Then I guess the only (?) possibility left is that the wood is crushed....

Mehtas, the maker of first or second puzzle ?
Thanks for your help,

Nicolas
Message: Posted by: Mehtas (Jul 30, 2005 04:36AM)
Nicolas,

I think it was the maker of first puzzle.

sometimes these makers give you trick statements to send you for a ride again. even though you've solved the problem. if that is the case then I don't see any point to go furthur on this puzzle.
Message: Posted by: papawemba (Aug 1, 2005 03:20AM)
I am kind of lost with this thing :)
This week-end I have put a small piece of basswood (soft wood) in boiling water for 10 min. The piece was 3(long)x1(large)x1/2(thick) inch.
After this extreme treatment on wood, it will not bend more than 1/4 inch and then break! I did this with other pieces other size but it always breaks...

I begin to think it is not possible to bend small piece of wood like these!
I also remember an old trick where you can completely bend a cigarette in half (a side touching the other!), and the cigarette will not break if you roll it in bill. Maybe the same technique can be adapted, for example rolling the wood to bend into duck tape, preventing to break...

I remain kind of clue less :)

Nicolas
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 1, 2005 01:56PM)
Is it sensible to grow the tree around the bolt? Takes a while.
Message: Posted by: mike paris (Aug 1, 2005 02:37PM)
This is how I think it's done. Cut out the wood as is, then snap off one end, because it's broke (not sawn). There will be an invisible join. Drill the hole, insert bolt, and then reassemble with glue and no one is the wiser. mike
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Aug 1, 2005 03:55PM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-01 15:37, mike paris wrote:
This is how I think it's done. Cut out the wood as is, then snap off one end, because it's broke (not sawn). There will be an invisible join. Drill the hole, insert bolt, and then reassemble with glue and no one is the wiser. mike
[/quote]
No!
belief is an interesting thing. truth is there, but people refuse to believe.

[quote]
On 2005-08-01 04:20, papawemba wrote:

I begin to think it is not possible to bend small piece of wood like these!
[/quote]
Good! you aren't supposed to! thus the amazing puzzle, the impossible object!

After showing my grandfather the arrow thru bottle impossible object and explaining how one is made, he then made several similar puzzles. his version was a wooden heart with a hole drilled in, then a wooden arrow is thru the hole. He personally did not care for basswood, it didn't work as well for him as another type of wood he used.


s
Message: Posted by: Mehtas (Aug 2, 2005 06:14AM)
Any cabinet makers out there ??

Can a small bit of wood bend almost a 90 degree angle if it was steamed.

Look at the following picture again.

Why the section I've marked is bit moon shaped. why is the left side bit darker than the rest of the wood ??

Any clues ??

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/mehtas99/impob2.jpg


:kewl:
Message: Posted by: papawemba (Aug 2, 2005 07:58AM)
The Sponge, do you actually know how the "tooth and nail" was made ?
Are you sure there is no wood bending to make this object ?
The "arrow thru bottle" (or coin or..) is also an excellent impossible object !
Maybe same principle are involved like steaming or boiling wood...

Mehtas, I see you have also a lot of motivation for this puzzle :)
I think for the picture you have showed, the right teeth CAN be bend on side, allowing the hole to be drilled and the bold to be inserted.
The wood can certainly not bend 90° or maybe it can but very hard (need expensive materiel), check this out :
http://www.compwood.dk/eng_presentation.htm

For the other tooth and nail, teeth are smaller making it much difficult to be bend (if not impossible)! The problem is that I can absolutely not think of another way...

Just a small historical info, Viking ship builder used to soak their board in a salt water for a day prior to attempting to bend them into shape...
Salt in water get bending wood easier...

Nicolas
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 2, 2005 08:41AM)
You put the instructions for the bolt and the wood into your matter printer/builder and press the button. Today we have this working in wax, tabletop model takes instructions from a CAD program.

One thing about these impossible objects... they don't come with duplicate components. Almost the makings of a good trick if they did. ;)
Message: Posted by: stanalger (Aug 2, 2005 11:45AM)
Check out the 16th puzzle from the bottom of this page:
http://www.johnrausch.com/DesignCompetition/2005/entries.htm

It's called "Solitary Confinement."

If removing the screws is allowed, then there's no puzzle.
If removing the screws isn't allowed, then ????????

Note that some of the puzzles have solutions posted. This
one doesn't.
Message: Posted by: Sapient (Aug 2, 2005 12:02PM)
"It's called "Solitary Confinement.""

The nail may just come apart.
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Aug 2, 2005 01:08PM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-02 08:58, papawemba wrote:
The Sponge, do you actually know how the "tooth and nail" was made ?

Are you sure there is no wood bending to make this object ?

Maybe same principle are involved like steaming or boiling wood...

I think for the picture you have showed, the right teeth CAN be bend on side, allowing the hole to be drilled and the bold to be inserted.
The wood can certainly not bend 90° or maybe it can but very hard

For the other tooth and nail, teeth are smaller making it much difficult to be bend (if not impossible)!
[/quote]
Yes, both of them.
I never said that, quite the opposite.


A [b]puzzle[/b] is different than an [b]impossible object[/b]. Different rules apply.

s
Message: Posted by: Mushu (Aug 2, 2005 10:49PM)
Instead of bending it vertically into a horse-shoe shape, how about bending it horizontally into sort of a denture-shape? You would only have to bend half as much. I guess you would only need to bend one end, so it'd be more of a L shape, except you don't have to go anywhere near 90-degrees.

It's difficult to describe, but I can visualize it in my mind.
Message: Posted by: MR2Guy (Aug 2, 2005 11:13PM)
Got it!

This is an illusion based on perspective, the bolt is actually diagonal in the pict., it's actually behind the post on the right, and in front of the one on the left. If you look closely at where the bolt enters and exits the two center posts, you'll notice that it's much closer on the left center post than at the right center post. The wood and posts are skewed to look square when viewed and shown from this angle.

Yes, it's hard to explain, but look at it closely, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Props go out to my wife, who took one look at it and showed me how it was made/photographed.

The builder said water was used? Gotta love it, obviously, they like illusion and making people think just like Magicians do, and will use verbal misdirection just like ourselves.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Mike Baxter (Aug 3, 2005 12:07AM)
[quote]the bolt is actually diagonal in the pict., it's actually behind the post on the right, and in front of the one on the left[/quote]

Good suggestion - but unless the background wall was similarly 'skewed' the shadow of the bolt would not appear to be parallel to the bolt itself from the left side through to the right.
Message: Posted by: papawemba (Aug 3, 2005 03:09AM)
I don't think the illusion is based on perspective because you can actually have it in hand and not be able to take the nail out.
For "Solitary Confinement", very same looking as our impossible object :)
Too bad the solution is missing (great site, thanks stanalger !). But maybe as a puzzle, the construction is completely different with a certain gimmick in wood. Like the first puzzle (golf in cage) there is a similar impossible object iron ball in cage but it cannot be free of cage.

the Sponge, sorry I misunderstand you and I am confused :) When you say "Yes, both of them", you mean you can do both "tooth and nail puzzle" or you mean "steaming and boiling" is needed? (or both :)

I have another theory for the second tooth and nail (http://www.johnrausch.com/PuzzleWorld/puz/img/tooth_and_nail_1.jpg ); The key words are expand and shrink wood...(that won't work for first one)
Nicolas