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Topic: A card force, is it mine?
Message: Posted by: spiritx2005 (Aug 14, 2005 06:10PM)
I was playing around with a DL the other night and came up with this nifty little force that I like. Of course I'm 99.9% sure that I'm not the first to do it so I thought I should find out who it belongs to originally if anyone knows, or if it is indeed original (as if) then what should we call it?

The force goes like this:

- Peek bottom and shuffle to second from top (I use a Milk shuffle to a normal one, running the final few). Place the pack in dealer

- Explain you want a random card selection etc......., or not if you prefer.

- Single lift and show top card, replace on pack.

- Simultaneously begin a slow riffle with the left thumb as you DL (showing only the back of the double) as you instruct the spectator to call "Stop".

- When they say stop insert the double into the gap with the right hand and push the bottom card of the double down a half inch(ish) further into the deck than the top one, then as you look at them and make a comment or ask a question pull the bottom card of the double (the peeked one) flush with the deck with left index finger (this is easily invisible, under cover of the jogged single).

- Now turn the single jogged card sideways and lift it, dividing the pack
book fashion and instruct the spectator to peek the card under it.

- Of course, as you lift the top packet off the bottom one the spectator sees
the card you previously showed as the top, I think this is a nice convincer
that nothing odd has happened.

NOTE: As a variation you could also get to the point where you have squared
the peeked card flush and then you can let the spectator complete the handling,
instructing them to turn the sticking out card sideways and lift it up
taking the top of the pack with it.

Also I have found that the initial peek is unnecessary because you can peek the bottom card of the double as you do the DL.

I like the simplicity of this force and I think it works very nicely when you immediately place the deck aside after the force and proceed to do a 100% presentational reveal, like a mind reading effect.

So, is there any chance that I can claim this as my very own?

...and by the way, any suggested improvements/streamlining are very welcome as I have only been learning magic a few months and would appreciate any feedback.
Message: Posted by: Hideo Kato (Aug 14, 2005 06:49PM)
I recommend you to substitute Push-in Change for your pushing-in method. Push-in Change is described in Expert Card Technique if I'm not mistaken.

Hideo Kato
Message: Posted by: scorch (Aug 14, 2005 06:57PM)
My main comment is that it seems unnatural for two reasons. First of all, you start off with overproving. Since when did we ever need to turn over the top card to show it is indifferent, when the spectator is supposedly choosing from a card in the middle of the pack? It doesn't make any sense. And even if you dispensed with that part of it, the central technique of putting the card in where the spectator says stop would arouse too much suspicion. After riffling to a stop, have you ever seen any magician put a card in to take the two packets apart or to mark the place where they stopped, when they immediately opened it up there anyway? I never have, and it would seem really fishy to me, even imagining myself to be a spectator that didn't know much about sleight of hand. The external aim of sleight of hand is to mimic the natural handling of the deck in that situation, and this falls well short of that goal.

I think that it's a nice try, especially for a relative newcomer to card magic. It's just that with forces, there are so many excellent ones that don't arouse suspicion and that don't have the extraneous movements. You'd need to improve on what's already available, which isn't easy to do! But keep up the good work and someday you'll invent the perfect invisible pass!
Message: Posted by: James F (Aug 15, 2005 12:50AM)
Well it depends how you play it. If you flipped over the top card saying it will mark the place the spectator says stop at, then flipping over the top card would not look odd. Also, it could be a kind of delayed forced. (Like the criss cut force) Mark it so you can do some sort of explaining. I don't think this is the best force ever, but I think its a good idea. I personally have never seen a force like that.

Message: Posted by: Daegs (Aug 15, 2005 12:54AM)
Do it with a face up joker on top...

Lift the double card so it is back to back... you can still proceed with the faceup joker for the whole procedure.
Message: Posted by: James F (Aug 15, 2005 09:14AM)
Excellent idea.
Message: Posted by: Charlie Justice (Aug 15, 2005 09:36AM)
I've been doing something similar in conjunction with an ID routine.

1. Introduce the ID and a regular deck and 'force' the usage of the regular deck.
2. Have spectator #1 name any card (ie AH)
3. Go through the deck, and cull the matching card for the ID (QS) to the top, and remove the AH.
4. Placing the AH face up on the deck (now above the QS), DL and slightly outjog the 2, have spectator #2 say stop anywhere as you thumb riffle the deck.
5. Insert the 2 into stopped location and push the QS flush leaving the AH outjogged, table the deck.
6. Remove ID from case and search for the AH.
7. Show that the AH from the regular deck has cut to a card (QS) that matches the reversed card below the AH in the ID.

This no doubt reads a little wild but the same basic force principle is used. This is however the only effect in which I use it.
Message: Posted by: spiritx2005 (Aug 15, 2005 05:44PM)
Thanks for the feedback everyone.

You made some good points there scorch that I'll take on board although I'm still quite proud of the force. Mostly because I've tried it on a couple of friends and there was never any suspicion of any kind, obviously it's not going to fool anyone in the know but I still like the visual thing of the spec actually seeing the indifferent card as you lift it.

Hideo, AJOJRF, Daegs and Charlie those are all great ideas thanks. That one about the joker is a great idea and I'm going to go and look up the Push-in change thanks Hideo.

So it actually seems so far that I get to name it, unless anyone else can tell me otherwise.
Message: Posted by: Ross W (Aug 15, 2005 06:04PM)
Dunno if five guys on a message board constitutes full research! Anyway why not go the ego route and name it after yourself? Though "the spiritx2005 force" isn't exactly snappy... It would be quite cool to invent a classic move that has your name.

Love the joker idea.
Message: Posted by: S.Segal (Aug 15, 2005 06:16PM)
I need to look through some of my Jennings material... but I am relatively sure he uses this force in conjunction with a "mate-matching" effect.... possibly "Synchronicity".

Anybody near "Classic Magic" right now that could clear this up?


PS - Doug Brewer also has an unpublished routine using this force that he showed me a few years ago. I do not believe he claims originality for it.

Greg Wilson recently lectured and did this same force using a casino "cut-card". The cut card was placed into the pack where the spectator called stop. An ace is then found next to the "cut-card". This routine was also on his recent DVDs.

Just looked through "Classic Magic" and it is not used in the above mentioned routine. Right now I can really only pinpoint it to the Gregory Wilson DVDs. I know it has to have been published prior.

Anyone else have any idea of its original where abouts?

Message: Posted by: SOHA (Aug 15, 2005 08:53PM)
Sounds like a good idea. The only problem with posting a move or sleight you've invented on the internet with exact details is that someone could actually take it and publish it as if it was their own, and te credit will be given to that person for it.
Message: Posted by: S.Segal (Aug 15, 2005 09:44PM)
SOHA, while your point is valid, I do not think that it applies here.

Message: Posted by: Essie (Aug 16, 2005 01:24AM)
I like the idea of the force (using a card to stop at a certain point in a riffle), but I think it would look a lot better if you had the spectator insert the card anywhere in the deck while you riffled. You could try giving the spectator the top card (which you know) without showing them the card (or do a DL first to show a joker or something). They could stick it in the deck anywhere they wanted while you riffled down, just letting in poke out a bit. Then when you picked up the top half, you could let a card drop on top of the other one (that the spectator pushed in). So now you have the top half of the deck in one hand, and another packet (the bottom half) with an outjogged card (that's really a double) on top in the other. Then you could thumb off the (new) outjogged card onto the table, re-alligning the original with the rest of the packet in the process. The spec could then take off the top card, the one you originally memorized, and it might seem totally fair. I tried it once or twice just now and it seemed to work OK, but who knows. Anyway, I realize that that's a lot different than your version, but it might seem somewhat similar in appearance.
Message: Posted by: magic_sailor (Aug 16, 2005 07:29AM)
I might not be quite sure if I understand exactly what you are explaining, but if it is what I think I saw it on a jay sankey dvd called firestarters and it is credited on there. I will watch it and let you know.
Message: Posted by: scott0819 (Aug 16, 2005 09:06AM)
I don't have my copy of 'classic magic of larry jennings' in front of me but I perform syncronicity quite alot. the force used in the second phase of sycronicity is similiar to spiritx2005's force, it uses a DL to introduce the force card into the deck,
except it uses the alignment move that hollingworth has applied to many of his tricks for the switch.
Message: Posted by: Ryan Matney (Aug 16, 2005 05:07PM)
Forces and sleighst similar to this have been in print. You guys can run that down, I just wanted to say that as long as there is a reason for the card being in play, however small that reason may be, the spectators will not question the use of the card inserted into the deck.

For example, using the single card as the ten of hearts and then sticking it in the deck and forcing the ten of diamonds for a matching effect would be an OK use.