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Topic: Cogitations - GONE!
Message: Posted by: pierredan (Aug 26, 2005 09:24AM)
I just heard that Steven Youell will not continue Cogitations:

"Thank you all for your support. Cogitations has now closed.

For personal reasons, I will not be doing Cogitations II-- nor will I be involved in the magic world any longer.

Thank You

Steven Youell"


The link to Cogitations is now dead. I was under the impression members could have indefinite access to the link. I'm disappointed that I didn't print all of the tricks when I had the chance.
Message: Posted by: Jeff (Aug 26, 2005 09:41AM)
I'm more worried why Steve will not be involved in magic anymore. He is a talent we can't afford to lose.

Jeff Pierce
Message: Posted by: xformer7 (Aug 26, 2005 09:44AM)
You said you "heard" it, but then went on to provide some quoted text. What is the source of that text?
Message: Posted by: Samuel (Aug 26, 2005 09:55AM)
The quote:

[quote]
After much thought, I have decided that I will refund everyone's money and not produce Cogitations II.

I'm tired of dealing with contributors who promise material and don't deliver.

I'm tired of dealing with the large number of anonymous people on public forums who have opinions, but no facts.

But mostly I'm just not interested in taking this amount of stress for something as stupid as card tricks.

...

Steven Youell
[/quote]

The fact that the money has been returned, and that the site is down - should suffice as proof... (I was a member)
Message: Posted by: pierredan (Aug 26, 2005 10:00AM)
Xformer7,

I read this on the Genii Forum.

I am a member of Cogitations; unfortunately I have never received any of Steven Youell's emails. This is entirely my fault because I recently realized that I misspelled my email address when I joined Cogitations.

I was hoping some other members could fill me in on the content of the emails that I missed (you can pm me if you prefer).
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 26, 2005 10:33AM)
This is very sad news as Steve is one of the very best. What ever he does I wish him well.

Regards

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Andrew Loh (Aug 26, 2005 10:46AM)
Yeah, curious, I wonder Steve will reply here or not when he read this thread????? :(

Andrew
Message: Posted by: VBall (Aug 26, 2005 10:54AM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-26 11:46, Andrew Loh wrote:
Yeah, curious, I wonder Steve will reply here or not when he read this thread????? :(

Andrew
[/quote]

I doubt it. He probably left due to some of the members here.
Message: Posted by: xformer7 (Aug 26, 2005 10:55AM)
Not doing Cogitations II is one thing, but to "not be involved in the magic world any longer" is quite a distressing prospect. I can only hope that if this truly reflects his current feeling, that it is only temporary and the feeling passes (weeks or months....not years).
Message: Posted by: Doomo (Aug 26, 2005 11:03AM)
Well, I hate to say this, but this is not the first time this has happened with Steve.
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Aug 26, 2005 11:38AM)
This kinda petulance is quite tiresome; I only hope he really follows through with a complete exit from the magic world.


A.
Message: Posted by: pierredan (Aug 26, 2005 12:10PM)
I really do not understand the animosity that is continuously aimed at Steven Youell.

I have greatly enjoyed many of his instructional CD's, his lecture notes "Weapons of Mass Destruction" (free with Cogitations membership) and Cogitations. Furthermore, he gave me excellent after sale service.

Is Steven an **** in real life? Has he done things to upset some of the magicians out there? Has he forgotten to give credit where credit is due?

Surely people have a lot more to hold against him than the minor quips regarding Cogitation?
Message: Posted by: Tony Noice (Aug 26, 2005 12:28PM)
Steve was always a gentleman and more than fair. However, I am disappointed that the site was taken down without warning as I've been busy and did not read the last few articles on the assumption that they would always be available to members.
Message: Posted by: mortonch (Aug 26, 2005 12:35PM)
As a cogitations fan I am gutted that there will not be a second instalment.

Footnote to some Café members: I was always taught that if you cant say something nice about someone then don't say anything at all.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Aug 26, 2005 01:01PM)
As an older member of the Café and new'ish to card magic, I feel deeply saddened by Steven Youell's decision to step away from magic. I have found him very accommodating and extremely helpful with regard to his careful teaching material and the conscientious effort he almost single handedly put into Cogitations. Steven's Mongral Pass, Rotation pass, Cardini Multiple Shift and Ron Bauer TTT are in the process of becoming the mainstay of my repertoir of card controls and sleights. His Weapons of Mass Destruction continues to be a source of ideas and inspiration. I will miss his unique contribution, his experience and his thorough teaching style very much.

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Aug 26, 2005 01:22PM)
I will miss Steven's presence and definatly cogitations... but I am sure glad I backed up every picture, video and page that was posted!!! Backing up is truly a nessicity in today's online world.


Anyway, I only have issue with this comment:
[quote]Footnote to some Café members: I was always taught that if you cant say something nice about someone then don't say anything at all.[/quote]

That works great for your mom, but that is the reason that she is your mom and not a world leader.

Can we please imagine a world where this is followed?

Millions dieing to genocide, but we just say "Wow they sure are killing them fast!!!"

Or on a smaller scale, we have a society of really crappy magicians because no one would give them honest feedback but instead says "Well I really liked your music" or "Those were some pretty nice appearing canes!" instead of give them good feedback, resulting in them contining to not only perform a bad act but think that they are good.

Anyway, sorry to go off on a rant, but people saying "Only speak nice things" is on my top 5 list of things that @#%&*@% me off.

It's bad advice that you shouldn't follow... would you be rather be known as a straight shooter that give you solid honest advice or some guy that kisses butt all the time?
Message: Posted by: Samuel (Aug 26, 2005 01:38PM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-26 14:22, Daegs wrote:
It's bad advice that you shouldn't follow... would you be rather be known as a straight shooter that give you solid honest advice or some guy that kisses butt all the time?
[/quote]

Thank you! I wished to say this to him, but couldn't find the words :)
Message: Posted by: Alniner (Aug 26, 2005 01:47PM)
I got exactly what I wanted and expected out of Cogitations. Steven, if you are reading this thank you for your time.
Message: Posted by: Carlo (Aug 26, 2005 02:06PM)
Steven,

Why are academic battles so bitter? "Because there is so little at stake". I got a lot more than my money's worth. Thanks for all your efforts. Illegitimi non carborundum, pal, don't let the ***s wear you down.

Carlo
Message: Posted by: Jeff (Aug 26, 2005 02:25PM)
I also got more than I paid for.

Jeff Pierce
Message: Posted by: pepka (Aug 26, 2005 03:30PM)
I was an early member and the last several weeks had been very lax about checking updates. I too never got around to printing out articles and tricks I wished to save. I had never met Steven or dealt with him before Cogitations. I was having some problems logging in and he called me and talked me through it. We talked for about 45 min about magic in general. If he sees this, thank you Steven, you'll be missed.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 26, 2005 03:33PM)
“But mostly I'm just not interested in taking this amount of stress for something as stupid as card tricks.”

That is an interesting comment. I mean I sometimes think we take card tricks too seriously and we should just enjoy it like artists enjoy painting, but we seem to turn into art critiques rather than artists as we get into talking about it. It is interesting to do so, but it does seen to kill the love of performing it, to some extent.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Aug 26, 2005 03:53PM)
A very good point Tommy.

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: mortonch (Aug 26, 2005 04:15PM)
Daegs
I tend to beleive there is a difference between being a straight shooter and putting the boot in. I also believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion and don't dare dispute that everyone is entitled to speak their mind. However there has been a lot of unjustifiably harsh posts written about Steven. So much so that the guy has decided to take a step back from magic. Let me stress that I am not refering to every single person that said cogitations didn't live up to their expectations. It is a small number of posts that I feel were unjustifiably harsh.

I have never kissed ass in my life but I still find it possible to stand by my beliefs.
Perhaps the phrase I was looking for was something else my mother taught me
"Good manners don't cost anything"
Message: Posted by: jskalon (Aug 26, 2005 04:22PM)
Has anyone been able to reply to the email Steven sent out? They just bounce back.

Well anyway, Steven if you read this thread, I don't need or want a refund for Cogitations II. When all is said and done, I got way more than my money's worth.
(just my opinion guys)
Thanks and good luck.
Jack
Message: Posted by: stevenamills (Aug 26, 2005 04:26PM)
"Each week you'll be treated to a new article from one of the top Cardmen in the world. Every article, every effect will be archived so everything you read will always be at your fingertips. And you'll never see any banner ads or pop-up ads! What you WILL see, however, are articles, effects, commentaries and even rants from names you can trust. A few of the Contributors we already have:"....
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Aug 26, 2005 05:28PM)
I got more than I paid for with the first installment! In fact, there were some folks who were mightly upset that the lecture notes they hoped would be fairly limited in circulation, simply because Steve doesn't lecture all that often, were available so easily! "Weapons of Mass Destruction" was worth the subscription by itself!

And is there ANYONE who wouldn't have gladly paid Paul Cummins for his "Punken Droker"? I have to say it is one of the few things I've read recently that I will actually use, consistently.

The excellent three-part "Card Trick" by Ron Bauer sent me to the study to check the edge on my Card Cutter immediately, But then, that's how I respond to anything of Bauer's.

I've been doing false deals for years, and it was a pleasure to FINALLY have some footage of deals done as they should be - thank you to Andru!

J.C. Wagner was a "Blast From The Past", a terrific addition anytime. It was great to see him re-enter the magic world, in part, thru Cogitations - welcome back, J.C.!

And how about that Wimhurst guy, huh? In the service of his government, and in harm's way over there in the mid-east, and he STILL found time for card tricks - now THAT'S dedication...

Oh yeah, I almost forgot - Steve even wrote some things up himself! Card tricks, history,(How ABOUT that Busby guy?), finesses to moves that are often overlooked, (Cardini was more than just a manipulator, as Steve so ably demonstrated with his control of 4 Aces!), and the application of "standard" material! I've no doubt forgotten something, but you get the idea - we really got screwed here! $20.00 and that's ALL the bum gave us? Well I for one say, "Never! Never, again! Never!"

OK, so that last part WAS sarcastic. And yes, I AM a friend of Steven's, so I have an interest in seeing him fairly judged for his efforts. So what? What would YOU expect from YOUR friends? Of course I support Steve, he IS my friend and that what friends are SUPPOSED to do. Even if I weren't, though, I'd have to have LEAPT to his defense on this issue. Dollar for dollar, Cogitations was the best investment in Magic in a long time. Too bad that Steve couldn't quite pull it off. On the other hand, Bravo! for trying something new, and for making quite a few people very happy! The noise you hear is from the "critics", the few who are disgruntled. Of course they post negatively, otherwise they wouldn't be "critics". If you are happy, say so! Let the people who didn't participate in this experiment know that there are a lot more folks who are pleased they took part in it than there are people who think it failed. The only gauge they have is public comment. Make sure your voice is heard...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Aug 26, 2005 05:41PM)
It sounds like Mr Youell was hurt and upset by a variety of things and that's really too bad. He did a bang up job with Cogitations (that's a Canadian way of say it was very good). Well worth every single penny spent. An A+ in this guy's books.
Message: Posted by: Dorian Rhodell (Aug 26, 2005 06:52PM)
I also am a friend of Steve's. Not super close but enough for me to also come to his defense and merely to say, "thanks Steve for everything." I never said it before but I mean it now. You have truly made a difference and your efforts will never go unrecognized. For those of you who were not fortunate enough to have subscribed, I really have to say that Cogitations was by far the best 20 dollars on magic I have EVER spent.

Best,

Dorian Rhodell
Message: Posted by: Dan McLean (Aug 26, 2005 07:10PM)
I'm saddened by the loss of Cogitations and Steven Youell. As I said in a previous post, my $20 was the best money I had spent on magic in quite some time. I'm also more than a little disappointed that Paul Chosse's work planned for Cogitations II will not occur nor will Ron Bauer's RAP.
***!!!!
Well, people have been known to take a break from magic. I did. Hopefully Steven's absence will be a brief one.
Dan
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Aug 26, 2005 08:54PM)
Steven is a great talent. I hope that he will take some time out to let his head settle and then come back to magic refreshed. It would be a shame to lose him. He is one of the rare performers who is both a great entertainer and a dedicated craftsman at sleight of hand. He is also very inventive and original.

I can't imagine that anyone would feel anything but loss if he truly leaves our community.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Aug 26, 2005 09:08PM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-26 18:28, Paul Chosse wrote:
And yes, I AM a friend of Steven's, so I have an interest in seeing him fairly judged for his efforts. So what? What would YOU expect from YOUR friends? Of course I support Steve, he IS my friend and that what friends are SUPPOSED to do.

Best, PSC
[/quote]
I wish that this feeling of friendship was expressed and talked about and fallowed up with the actions more often in the Café. Friendships like this in magic are rare and must be earned.

Both Steve and Paul are the real deal and the Café members are LUCKY to have them as members!
Message: Posted by: Bill Hallahan (Aug 27, 2005 12:18AM)
I also was [b]very[/b] happy with what I received from Cogitations.

It was worth way, way, more than I paid.

I hope Steve returns to magic.
Message: Posted by: magicbear (Aug 27, 2005 11:39AM)
Okay, so Cogitations was not perfect and Steve did not meet every condition he stated in his initial promotion. So what? It sounds like the task turned out to be much more difficult than Steve had anticipated. Cogitations was well worth the money and a fun ride while it lasted. Not only was the material good, usable stuff and WMD outstanding, but also somehow in reading Cogitations I got the sense of community and belonging to something special. Thanks Steve, sorry it turned out to be such a bad experience for you.
Message: Posted by: cardcraft (Aug 27, 2005 12:24PM)
You know, people might be more understanding if Mr. Youell wasn't such a putz to begin with.

Have you read some of his rants and criticism of other people's work??? Or the rude and vicious emails! Even reviews I've agreed with him, he makes me cringe. There is such a thing as tact!

And then, when he over-promises and under-performs, we're supposed to give him a pass! (keep in mind, this isn't the first time either) Too bad.

You reap what you sow!
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Aug 27, 2005 02:11PM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-27 13:24, cardcraft wrote:
You know, people might be more understanding if Mr. Youell wasn't such a putz to begin with.

Have you read some of his rants and criticism of other people's work??? Or the rude and vicious emails! Even reviews I've agreed with him, he makes me cringe. There is such a thing as tact!

And then, when he over-promises and under-performs, we're supposed to give him a pass! (keep in mind, this isn't the first time either) Too bad.

You reap what you sow!
[/quote]
I wonder why people think that it is OK to enter a forum and hide behind a screen name and then on their second post - use it as an opportunity to slam someone.

Being in magic for 30 years or more and running a magic shop and at one time two magic shops for about 15 years. And after taking over after my father had a stroke - and adding to the business - a computer catalog - mail order - a newsletter.

I know a little bit about starting something and then keeping it going. Writing a newsletter or a e-magazine is a very large undertaking. The reason is that after a few issues it gets very hard to keep the quality of the material up.

As magicians and performers it takes time to come up with the new - great and workable ideas. In other words - there is no way to put a time clock to creativity in performance material. Creativity and ideas come over time through the performance of material through the review and inspiration of other and older material.

And the inspiration and performance of doing live shows.

Steve Youell's project was very ambitious and he is an ARTIST!

Artists do not walk to the beat of the business drum. They try, sometimes do, but deep down they are artists. And basically the creative ideas come to an artist as they do and not under a time clock. Perhaps from a business stand-point it appears that Steven bit off more that he could chew with this project and had a hard time keeping up with it. But artists often do that and I have met very few good business men in magic. And I have known a lot of magicians.

I am not a good business man. Often in magic we learn and do the business because we HAVE to do it. Not because we want to do it or like to do it. Often we start projects without a business plan and the plan is written as the project goes on!

Having put my stuff on the magic market and being one that has put up with the brickbats of magic's hidden hecklers I have this to say.

The loss of this project and what could have been future projects from this and other artists - Is a GREAT LOSS TO MAGIC!

Because the hidden hecklers seem to win - but in fact - WE ALL LOSE!
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Aug 27, 2005 02:43PM)
I haven't agreed with you on much recently, Bish, but I whole-heartedly agree with everything you said here. Very well put! Right on.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 27, 2005 02:47PM)
I have to agree with Bish on this one, too.

And "cardcrap" or whatever your name is, don't hide behind a monicker. If you are willing to call Steve a putz, at least be man enough to come out and tell us who you are, so we can decide if you are speaking from first hand knowledge. Or if it just takes one to know one.
Message: Posted by: cardcraft (Aug 27, 2005 03:23PM)
Listen, you can get bogged down in the tired argument of anonymity, but the issue doesn't change -

Steve's criticism of other's work (material that they worked just as hard on as Steve did with Cogitations) has been harsh and unnecessarily cruel.

And the emails he's sent are vicious! I know, I've received a few.

So I have no sympathy for the hypocrite. You reap what you sow!

There are reasons for my anonymity, so discount what I say if you want. But I KNOW I'm not the only one singing this tune!
Message: Posted by: MagicPooBah (Aug 27, 2005 04:13PM)
Cardcraft,

You are FAR, FAR from alone here. These type of wounds heal very slowly.

If the truth be known, I'm rather sure the reason for anonymity is well understood and the cry for disclosure is disingenuous, at best.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Aug 27, 2005 04:27PM)
I also admire the fact that Steven Youell could have sped up the project and to satisfy the unknown hecklers about the amount of material and the time issue - he could have used FILLER MATERIAL.

But because he IS an artist of high standards he did not pad it with filler and put up with the bashing. The fact that he did NOT use FILLER MATERIAL proves that he has integrity as an artist and wanted to keep the material high quality.

Now tired of the bashing the project is over. Nameless hidden hecklers want to throw in their continued insults - and say little moot point remarks.

The nameless hidden hecklers seem to win - but magic and the real magicians LOSE!
Message: Posted by: mormonyoyoman (Aug 27, 2005 05:42PM)
In any group of any size, there are going to be yapping dogs who desire to drag down anyone who strives to accomplish something significant. There are those who create, those who hope to destroy, and most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

Steven Youell has nothing to prove. He aimed at the moon and, if he didn't quite hit the moon, he came much closer than I think he realizes.

As Glenn says, he could've hit every deadline by using filler - and he opted for quality instead. Label me one happy customer of Cogitations, who misses it.

*jeep!
--Chet
Message: Posted by: Skinny Fatts (Aug 27, 2005 05:45PM)
There seems to be an unbalanced amount of criticism aimed at "nameless" hecklers. This criticism is much deserved as it is usually pointless but, according to Mr. Youell's e-mail that was only one part of the problem. Another problem seemed to be contributors not coming through with promised material. I have yet to see a single post critical of a fellow magician who did not follow through with their promise and consequently let Mr. Youell down. It seems there might be a "blue line" in the magical fraternity that many are uncomfortable crossing.

Best,
Doug Koffel
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Aug 27, 2005 06:14PM)
Cardcraft, thank you for revealing yourself so fully, so early on. You've saved fair-minded readers the trouble of wading thru your pathetic prose. Hiding your identity is irrelevant. The lack of character it reveals - now that is an entirely different matter. You agree with Steve's reviews, according to your own post, your problem is his lack of tact. Now that IS amusing - like the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think? Regardless, your agenda is clear - to damage a man's reputation with no substantiation. Ad Hominem attack is the last refuge of a man with no argument. You obviously have nothing left to say - and you just got started! That's good to know...

PSC
Message: Posted by: magicmanr (Aug 27, 2005 07:01PM)
The only disappointment I've had with Cogitations is the untimely end it came to....I feel I recieved more than my money's worth out of it, and I wish I'd saved it all before it was removed so I could still rummage through the material I didn't have time to read through....Steven Youell, if you read this - thank you for your efforts, and I'm sorry to see a few sour apples spoiling it for the rest of us......Regardless of the critique, I'm happy to have been a member of your unappreciated attempt at a magical offering.....And I sincerely hope this doesn't sting and leave you with a bad taste for magicians in general.....

Ryan Rogers
Message: Posted by: Beth (Aug 27, 2005 07:46PM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-26 14:22, Daegs wrote:

Anyway, I only have issue with this comment:
[quote]Footnote to some Café members: I was always taught that if you cant say something nice about someone then don't say anything at all.[/quote]

That works great for your mom, but that is the reason that she is your mom and not a world leader.

Can we please imagine a world where this is followed?

Millions dieing to genocide, but we just say "Wow they sure are killing them fast!!!"

Or on a smaller scale, we have a society of really crappy magicians because no one would give them honest feedback but instead says "Well I really liked your music" or "Those were some pretty nice appearing canes!" instead of give them good feedback, resulting in them contining to not only perform a bad act but think that they are good.

Anyway, sorry to go off on a rant, but people saying "Only speak nice things" is on my top 5 list of things that @#%&*@% me off.

It's bad advice that you shouldn't follow... would you be rather be known as a straight shooter that give you solid honest advice or some guy that kisses butt all the time?
[/quote]
Well said Daegs. Truer words were never spoken, and I for one am glad to hear someone say it. I personally think it's better to tell the truth even when it's less than palatable.
Peace Beth
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 27, 2005 09:33PM)
I know how vicious Steve's e-mails could be. He gave as good as he got. But that doesn't discount the fact that he did put out a couple of really good issues. I got enough out of the first one I read to say I had gotten my money's worth.

Nobody forced anyone to subscribe to the magazine.

Let me also add this:

I mentor a lot of my friends concerning their acts. I won't name who some of the people I have worked with are -- it's not relevant. But when someone is a serious magician and he or she asks, "What did you think of my act?" I have always been honest and forthright with them.

By a serious magician, I mean a person who intends to pursue it as a career or someone who wants to improve his or her performance.

And I give them reasons and suggestions.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Aug 27, 2005 10:04PM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-26 14:22, Daegs wrote:

Anyway, I only have issue with this comment:
[quote]Footnote to some Café members: I was always taught that if you cant say something nice about someone then don't say anything at all.[/quote]

That works great for your mom, but that is the reason that she is your mom and not a world leader.

Can we please imagine a world where this is followed?

Millions dieing to genocide, but we just say "Wow they sure are killing them fast!!!"

Or on a smaller scale, we have a society of really crappy magicians because no one would give them honest feedback but instead says "Well I really liked your music" or "Those were some pretty nice appearing canes!" instead of give them good feedback, resulting in them contining to not only perform a bad act but think that they are good.

Anyway, sorry to go off on a rant, but people saying "Only speak nice things" is on my top 5 list of things that @#%&*@% me off.

It's bad advice that you shouldn't follow... would you be rather be known as a straight shooter that give you solid honest advice or some guy that kisses butt all the time?
[/quote]

I believe the original point was more along the lines of "It is possible to tell the truth without being a jerk", rather than "Don't ever say anything bad about anyone or ever give criticism."
Message: Posted by: cardcraft (Aug 27, 2005 10:34PM)
Bill, I agree it's only helpful to be honest and forthright. I know we need more of it magic. But I'm sure you're not rude and insulting when you mentor your student, right? (And yes, I've been rude in this thread, but I've tried being civil with Mr. Youell and the favors not returned)

And Mr. Chosse, it's admirable that you defend your friend, but I'm sure he NEVER treated you the way he treated many of us peons. You can attack me all you want (pathetic prose, lack of character). It doesn't change the fact that Mr. Youell criticized others HARD WORK harshly and it's a bit disingenuous to expect that we weep for him now because he's taken some shots for not living up to the promises he put forth (a fact that he freely admits!).

And Bish, this nonsense about being thankful because "he did not use filler" is laughable!! Transfer that logic to any other business transaction and I think you'll see how loopy it is.

"I know you didn't completely fix my car, but at least you didn't use legos to fix my brakes!"

"Wow this meal wasn't what you said it would be, but gosh, I am thankful you didn't feed me caulk!"

or "You know, this suit doesn't fit like you said it would. But at least it's not burlap!"
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Aug 27, 2005 11:02PM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-27 23:34, cardcraft wrote:
And Bish, this nonsense about being thankful because "he did not use filler" is laughable!! Transfer that logic to any other business transaction and I think you'll see how loopy it is.
[/quote]
When did I say anything about being thankful 2 post?

You joined the Café to knock Steve. And you are not worth talking too!
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Aug 28, 2005 12:24PM)
CardCraft:

You have obviously been a member for some time, probably under another pseudonymn, and yet you log on with a new name just so you can kick a man who is down.

Your buddy, MagicPoobah, if he isn't you, is a friend who also just took a new screen name to kick Steve. How can anyone take you two cowards seriously?

Whatever Steve may have said or done or not done, he took both the credit and the blame for it with his real name. Something you haven't got the stomach to do.

I can't think of anyone more cowardly and pathetic than one who would snipe at a defenseless enemy from behind the cover of anonymity. You should be ashamed, and I hope that someday when you are in a similar position, you come to remember how you treated Steve.

You are right to hide your identity, though. Any friends you possibly have would probably abandon you if they knew how unchivalrous, judgemental and mean-spirited you really are.