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Topic: May we have an Ethics section ?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 12, 2005 11:20AM)
We have some long standing discussions of ethical issues IN MAGIC running on some threads. These discussions have been civil and gone without fingerpointing and other such traps. Perhaps these threads would be better off in a section of their own? May we have an ethics in magic section?
Message: Posted by: Frank Tougas (Sep 12, 2005 11:30AM)
I see you read my post in Food for Thought, ;) Yes anything to unclog the threads with endless circular discussions would be helpful.

Frank Tougas
Message: Posted by: Dave Le Fevre (Sep 13, 2005 06:06AM)
Excellent idea. The rules of ethics within the magic community aren't always obvious. Much has been written on that subject, and many of those posts have given me much food for thought. (And most of those food-for-thought posts have been written by Jonathan.)

Dave
Message: Posted by: Mr. Muggle (Sep 15, 2005 10:27PM)
[quote]
On 2005-09-13 07:06, Dave Le Fevre wrote:
[...]The rules of ethics within the magic community aren't always obvious. [/quote]

That's because there are no 'rules' and if there were who's would they be? Instead there is a heated debate of different opinions that relate directly to each of our own core values. In a way its much like the liberal and conserative arguments of today where even in like minded groups no one ever agree's each time on each issue. As I see it there is already enough political banter on this site among some consumers, inventors, dealers, and retailers regarding the legal business practices of other's.
Message: Posted by: Mya Angel (Sep 15, 2005 11:15PM)
Mr Muggle is right. Sorry guys the answer is... No!

Unless Steve says it's ok. :bg:

:D
Message: Posted by: Dave Le Fevre (Sep 16, 2005 04:13AM)
[quote]
On 2005-09-15 23:27, Mr. Muggle wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-09-13 07:06, Dave Le Fevre wrote:
[...]The rules of ethics within the magic community aren't always obvious. [/quote]

That's because there are no 'rules' and if there were who's would they be?[/quote]

Fair comment. You’re quite right, of course.

However there is a “Code of Ethics”, for want of a better term, that appears to be perceived by the Elder Statesmen of The Magic Community. (By “Elder”, I don’t mean to imply that they’re old, merely that they’ve been seriously into magic for a long time.)

And many people consider that that Code applies to them, and so they abide by it.

And many people consider that that Code doesn’t apply to them, and so they don’t abide by it.

And many people don’t know that such a Code exists. So they don’t abide by it either.

But I agree. They aren’t Rules. Not universally, at least.

[quote]
On 2005-09-15 23:27, Mr. Muggle wrote:
Instead there is a heated debate of different opinions that relate directly to each of our own core values.[/quote]

Agreed. And all that is being suggested is that we put that debate, heated or otherwise, into a forum of its own. That way, it’s easier for people to find what they’re looking for.

And if the Moderators of the Café think that it’s not advisable, then it won’t happen. Fine by me – I have no problem with their decision.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Sep 16, 2005 05:04AM)
I tend to agree with Mya and Mr.Muggle. However, to be fair, if I find there is enough [b]serious[/b] interest, I will consider setting up a special forum. We'll see how many folks respond. :smoke:
Message: Posted by: jimtron (Sep 16, 2005 01:00PM)
I don't get it--Mr. Muggle's point about no standard rules of ethics in magic is an argument [i]against[/i] having an ethics forum here? Isn't that an argument in favor of an ethics forum, so we can ask questions and express opinions about ethics, and try to encourage others to be ethical? If there was a consensus on this topic, we could just post the magic ethics rules here somewhere and it would rarely be discussed.

Issues of ethics come up quite often, so it's not like no one's interested in it. Exposure, copyright, psychic readings, etc. are topics where ethics are discussed. These come up constantly.

-Jim
Message: Posted by: Review King (Sep 16, 2005 01:14PM)
I think Jon has a greta idea for this forum!!!
Message: Posted by: Jeremy L. (Sep 16, 2005 01:47PM)
Well, considering that I posted about having an ethics forum a while ago and the link in my signature, I think you know what my position is...
Message: Posted by: Foucault (Sep 16, 2005 05:46PM)
I think an ethics forum is a great idea. There are threads on this topic appearing in so many of the other forums that it seems to be an issue (as it should be) for magicians of all different genres.

Creating a seperate forum would allow discussions on this topic (and the topic needs discussion, since as was pointed out earlier, we're not all agreed) and prevent other forums from being clogged up with such debate.
Message: Posted by: JohnLamberti (Sep 17, 2005 01:26AM)
Count me in when it comes to supporting an ethics forum.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Sep 17, 2005 05:42AM)
Could be interesting. I wonder if moving these ethics topics into one forum by themselves doesn't defeat the expressed intent by putting "ethics" in a convenient avoidable place?
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Sep 17, 2005 12:04PM)
Tom,
I see it the other way. Having an ethics forum in a convenient location means it's much easier to find than having to rely on bloggers to link to some obscure discussion in an equally obsure location.

I think it's time for these discussions to come out of hiding and be held in a prominent place where all can find them easily.
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Sep 17, 2005 01:41PM)
A place to specifically discuss ethics in the magic community would be a good thing.
Just a thought, if Jonathan Townsend and the Café' staff agree, maybe give JT a section in the new "Buffet" area concentrating on ethics.
Message: Posted by: RandyStewart (Sep 17, 2005 01:52PM)
Café member: afun 14u posted:

"Since people are so quick to judge now day's I found this post on IBM's Ring 2100 this morning... Hope it will help people to know their are honest magicians and dealers in this world we live in!

The Card on Seat Resolved.

Drear Friends,

I would like to thank you for all your support, suggestions, comments, etc. regarding the Jumbo Card on Seat situation. All of you helped Greg Gleason and I come to an agreement that was mutual and beneficial to all parties. Greg showed great character in his resolve to make things right and what ever misunderstandings there were have been cleared up. We ask you all to pass the word that the situation is resolved and that Greg Gleason and I are in complete agreement. I found Greg to be a gentleman and a very talented performer and wish only the best for him and his family.

Sincerely,
George Robinson Jr.
Collectors' Workshop
9-16-05"
</quote>



That's the result of good ethics at work. Exercising such ethics, in pursuit of protecting and respecting other's works came only after the situation was questioned. We could stand to learn more on the topic. I'm not terribly confused on the topic as I more often than not tend to do unto others as I ......

But learning more on the subject and how it affects us as magicians or performers in general (amateur/professional) would for me personally serve as an improvement in all facets of my social and professional conduct.

I've actually come across countless posts asking if it's "OK" to copy this or that, put this or that twist on something with same result to make it different (that's confusing enough), and stolen intellectual property.

Some of these people are apparently serious about not knowing what is right or wrong in these matters.
Message: Posted by: RandyStewart (Sep 17, 2005 02:36PM)
[quote]
On 2005-09-17 14:52, RandyStewart wrote:
Some of these people are apparently serious about not knowing what is right or wrong in these matters.
[/quote]

I've never quoted myself but had to that time.

Funny how those who are unclear on the issues of ethics in magic become crystal clear when it's THEIR idea or creation.
Message: Posted by: edh (Sep 17, 2005 08:30PM)
I agree. An ethics forum would be a good Idea. As has been said before it would Bring all the posts on this subject to one place. I have seen posts on this subject in Food For Thought, Pick A Card. It would just seem convenient and logical to put all of these posts in one section.

Jaz, correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you could not reply to posts on the Buffet section.
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Sep 18, 2005 08:51AM)
[quote]
On 2005-09-17 21:30, edh wrote:
Jaz, correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you could not reply to posts on the Buffet section.
[/quote]

You're right.
There would still have to be a regular forum as well.
Message: Posted by: jbohn (Sep 20, 2005 01:17PM)
I am in agreement with Mr. Townsend- an ethics forum is a fine idea.

Jeremiah
Message: Posted by: Patrick Differ (Sep 22, 2005 09:59PM)
Count me in. Ethics are important.
Message: Posted by: James F (Sep 23, 2005 07:11PM)
Count me in too. I think it would make a great forum. Remember, you moderators have full control over the site. If the forum doesn't work out, you can always get rid of it. But if it did work out, it would be a great resource. I say go for it.
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Sep 28, 2005 05:58AM)
Okay folks, you asked for it. :)
[url=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewforum.php?forum=177&201]Right or Wrong?[/url]
:smoke:
Message: Posted by: edh (Sep 28, 2005 05:57PM)
Way to go Steve!!!
Message: Posted by: Jeremy L. (Sep 28, 2005 07:23PM)
Thank-You VERY MUCH Steve! This is what makes the Café such a GREAT place!
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Sep 28, 2005 07:34PM)
I don't know how I missed this whole discussion (except to give the excuse that I can't read everything here), but I am hppy to see an ethics forum. Thanks, Steve!
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Sep 30, 2005 03:13AM)
You're all very welcome. :)