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Topic: Halloween
Message: Posted by: snap (Sep 28, 2005 07:49AM)
Hey guys,
I know a lot of magicians put on a halloween shows at this time of year, and I'm just curious, what do you guys do? do you still go with the spooky scary kind of thing? or do you not put on a halloween show at all? do you do something unique? just wondering!!
thanx in advance!!
Message: Posted by: BroDavid (Sep 28, 2005 10:46AM)
I perform primarily for secular crowds (I don't preach to the Choir if I can help it, but I usually get invited for those secular events and paid by Christian groups, unless I am just out doing Street magic.) and although more people want to see "magic" around Halloween, I never get involved in the spooky aspects of Halloween. I just do what I do, and entertain, and mix in a Christian message or two for each group.

I just have never seen how ghosts and goblins, and witches etc, can be God Honoring, so I leave them out of anything I do.

I look at life very simply. If it doesn't Honor God, it Dishonors Him. So just don't go there.

BroDavid
Message: Posted by: leftytheclown (Sep 28, 2005 10:58AM)
BroDavid,
Very simple, very clear, and very, very true.
Message: Posted by: snap (Sep 28, 2005 05:58PM)
Brodavid, I agree, I never do the spooky kind of thing for holloween. actually, I usually perform for the harvest party at my church. many of the kids here know me as a magician, and the harvest party provides a safe, God-honoring alternative to trick or treating. anyway, thanx for the responses, keep them coming!!
Message: Posted by: Euangelion (Oct 9, 2005 05:38AM)
Well said, bro.
Message: Posted by: Leland Stone (Oct 9, 2005 01:09PM)
Personally, I love Bizarre Magic and my Spirit Spelling Board & I will be heading over to Starbucks on All Hallow's Eve, accompanied by my Haunted Key, Glorpy, VooDoo Ashes, and a deck of cards -- after a paying, straight Magic gig.

IMO, the Christian Church should be more concerned about divorce, abortion, alcoholism, alienation, and other substantive issues, and spend less of its effort fretting over superstition.

Leland
Message: Posted by: BroDavid (Oct 9, 2005 05:29PM)
LeLand,

Avoiding these things, in no way means that anyone condones "divorce, abortion, alcoholism, alienation, and other substantive issues." (also known as SINS)

This discussion wasn't about those things. It was about spooky scary Halloween shows. That is why the comments relate to them .

You comments sound more than a bit defensive and a little like an attack on the other posters. But regardless, I can tell you that my comments (and I don't see that anyone Else's were either) were not intended to attack you or anyone else who has managed to put performing Bizarre magic into a context that is acceptable to them.

I assume by your postings here in this forum, that you are a Christian.

If that is true, then whether or not you do Bizarre magic is between you and God. And if you are good with it, and you believe that God is good with it, then you shouldn't care what anyone else says anyway.

Just because I don't see how it can Glorify God, doesn't mean that someone else can not. Hopefully that helps clarify the issue that no one is attacking you, or Bizarre performance oriented Christians.

BroDavid
Message: Posted by: Leland Stone (Oct 10, 2005 06:26PM)
Hiya, BroDavid:

I appreciate your clarification.

Yes, I am a Christian, but no, I didn't feel attacked. Snap inquired as to my plans for Halloween, which I posted; the pontification on a topic near and dear to my heart was a bonus ;)

Leland
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Oct 13, 2005 03:29AM)
When I do magic with a Halloween theme, it usually is themed around Candy.. but that is just my weakness (Grin).

Actually, the one time I did a themed show for a High School group was to use it in the realm that if "I" can do this... it must be faked. I don't tip anything, but the students I am performing for know me very well.

Perhaps that is the key as well. I don't think I would do this for a group that didn't already have a relationship with me, and trust already built.

However, I am doing a show around Rites of Passage, which some of the presentations can come close to bizarre. But it isn't in a church setting, so I wonder.

John
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 13, 2005 10:06AM)
My Halloween show is based on the works of Edgar Allan Poe so it is spooky without being occult. It is geared for older kids however, the ten to sixteen set which makes it highly desirable to libraries as they have trouble finding programing for their teen read programs.
Message: Posted by: leftytheclown (Oct 14, 2005 02:05PM)
As with almost all "holidays", Halloween has been relagated to entertainment and fun. The underlying meaning of Halloween is much more serious and focuses on the occult. This would be a problem for many Christian magicians. I try to avoid any "Halloween" type of magic show. I do my standard stuff and hand out candy. I often volunteer for my local church to celebrate their "Fall Fun Festival", the alternative to Halloween.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 14, 2005 02:38PM)
The only "occult" meanings of Halloween are those foisted upon it by the Christians who usurped the holiday for their own purposes.
The original Celtic holiday of Samhain was basically their New Years and Harvest celebration.
Contrary to popular mythos Druid Priests did not go door to door seeking human sacrifice. In fact there is no reputable evidence that the Druids ever partook of this practice.
The devils and demons associated with this holiday today are all Christian symbology and origin as Satan is a Christian Deity not a Celtic one.
If you are going to start obsessing about the underlying meaning of holidays then you're going to have to start chucking out Christmas and Easter as well for those two holidays happen to fall on major Pagan festival days as well and too are chucked full of underlying occult themes if you are looking for them.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 14, 2005 03:54PM)
Payne, you should know better than that.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 14, 2005 04:44PM)
And I do. Show me any reputable evidence that Samhain was in anyway an "occult" holiday as practiced by the Celts. They believed that the dead could walk the earth on that night and performed divination rituals but they weren't calling up dark forces or sacrificing humans to horned gods and they certainly weren't enlisting the aid of Satan or any of his minions as they weren't in their pantheon of gods.

For most of us Halloween is a night of fun and a chance to dress up. For others its a time to adopt a "Holier than thou" attitude and fret over the fact that somewhere someone is having more fun than they are.
Message: Posted by: Macbeth (Oct 19, 2005 02:02AM)
I am performing on Halloween. but to an alternative Halloween Party
Message: Posted by: Euangelion (Oct 19, 2005 06:55AM)
Payne's assessment of the issues of Halloween are indeed spot on. Anyone who takes the time to do deep research on this topic will come to the same conclusions.

Before we who are Christians project images on to another faith whatever it is we should remember the accusations of cannabalism put onto the early church surrounding the eucharist.

Agree or disagree any and all forms of paganism and Druidism, or any other religion but do it on the basis of truth, not distortions and lies.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 19, 2005 07:44AM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-14 15:38, Payne wrote:
The only "occult" meanings of Halloween are those foisted upon it by the Christians who usurped the holiday for their own purposes.
[/quote]

Woah, hold on boys. I posted, left, and did not scan my post. I had thought that I had quoted the above, and only the above statement. When I looked this morning, all I saw was my own statement.

So let me clarify.

Yes, I fully realize that Payne is accurate re: the history of Halloween. But my objection rose from the what seemed to be the opinion that Christians are the only ones who, past *or* present, who use Halloween's occult significance (for good or ill). From Payne's next post it sounds as if I misinterpreted the point he was originally making. And so, my apologies. I was not referring to the origins of Halloween.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 19, 2005 08:28AM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-14 17:44, Payne wrote:
For most of us Halloween is a night of fun and a chance to dress up. For others its a time to adopt a "Holier than thou" attitude and fret over the fact that somewhere someone is having more fun than they are.
[/quote]

The second statement is quite an oversimplification. I have a lot of fun with Halloween, but to say that those who have much stronger objections to it are doing so simply because others are having more fun loses the force of your argument.
Message: Posted by: Donnie W (Oct 19, 2005 09:13AM)
Our church will be doing an alternative event for Halloween. "His Light in a Dark Night" Lots of light and no scarey type stuff , carnival games, puppets and magic.

It all boils down to Bro David's first statement "If it doesn't Honor God, it Dishonors Him." 73 Donnie
Message: Posted by: Clifford the Red (Oct 20, 2005 12:33AM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-19 07:55, Euangelion wrote:
Payne's assessment of the issues of Halloween are indeed spot on. Anyone who takes the time to do deep research on this topic will come to the same conclusions.

Before we who are Christians project images on to another faith whatever it is we should remember the accusations of cannabalism put onto the early church surrounding the eucharist.

Agree or disagree any and all forms of paganism and Druidism, or any other religion but do it on the basis of truth, not distortions and lies.
[/quote]

Wow, wouldn't that be nice. Having gone to Christian Schools growing up I can attest to unbelievable levels of distortion and lies on things such as other than Christian Religions, Rock & Roll (they even had assemblies on it!), Halloween and any other thing they wanted to steer people away from. Having a mind of my own, I found it all incredibly pathetic, patronizing and manipulative - not attributes that a Christian should exhibit, nor model.
Message: Posted by: snap (Oct 26, 2005 08:22PM)
Well, no matter how halloween came about, it is veiwed as a holiday for witches, warewolves, and other "magical" things. trick or treaters often dress up as witches, wizards, monsters, whatever, a lot of it is, to say the least, "anti-god." however it started, it is not thought of as a "christian" holiday. therefore, I refuse to take part in these "spooky" shows, or anything else to promote the concept of how halloween is used and thought of.
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Oct 27, 2005 02:41AM)
[quote]
"If it doesn't Honor God, it Dishonors Him."
[/quote]
Nonsense!

Every now and then, something can be value-neutral - it simply has nothing to do with worship or faith, it's just fun. And don't go into "well then it's idleness"... Sometimes it's simply not about that.

And any number of cultures have occasions to dress up, masque, ceremonialize, feast, whatever to "scare away the dark," - and they're not doing so to promote or worship what they're depicting. Look, for just one example, at Mexico's "Day of the Dead," with sugar skulls and skeleton imagery, picnic dinners in the cemetery, all done to honor those who have passed on, with serious devotion within the framework of their flavor of Christianity.
Message: Posted by: BroDavid (Oct 27, 2005 02:01PM)
While I don't agree with you Ross, I would not declare your statement to be [b]Nonsense[/b]. And I am personally offended by your choice of terms in disagreeing with me.

But when it comes to faith, there is no neutral ground. You either believe or you do not. To try to make faith value-neutral, you must deny the absolute truth of the Christian faith.

And just because others do things, like worshipping and honoring the dead with celebrations and feasts, does not mean that it is right or honoring to God.

Is it right to honor the memories of those who have gone before us and given much for us? Of course it is. I honor the memory of my father and mother. But I don't put on scarey masks or picnic in the cemetery. Do I think that those who do so, are simply enjoying a harmless diversion? No I do not. Life is built on a slippery slope. And steps like those you mentioned do nothing but take us further down that slope and away from the Face of God.

One of the probelms that exists today is that too many want to have a broad personal flavor of Christianity, and ignore the narrow road.

You may agree with me, or you may not. Such is your choice, but your participation here implys that you are a Christian. If so, I request that you tone done attacks on the posts of others. If you are not a Christian, then I can understand your attitude. But in either case I would enourage you to treat others as you would like to be treated. I am sure that if I had started out my message to you with a quote from your post, and the exclamation of [b]Nonsense![/b] you would not have happy about it.

BroDavid
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Oct 27, 2005 04:02PM)
[quote]
when it comes to faith, there is no neutral ground. You either believe or you do not.[/quote]

So one either believes ... or one does not ... no room for questions, no room for the Lord to light the way for you any differently than he lights it for anyone else, no room (oh, pal, just tell Paul this, just tell Peter this) for the slightest differences... no room to COME to a maturing of your faith, no room to grow BEYOND where your faith has led you hitherto (and be just as faithful at the beginning of your maturation as you are at the end) ... must be nice to be so pure, it would be nice if only it was Biblical.

[quote]
And just because others do things, like worshipping and honoring the dead with celebrations and feasts, does not mean that it is right or honoring to God. ... steps like those you mentioned do nothing but take us further down that slope and away from the Face of God.
[/quote]
Those rascally Catholics, just can't let 'em get away with a thing! Hard to see how they can call themselves Christians like ME, right? I'm sure their errors must greive God. By the way (careful, now, studying might lead you to opening your mind) the festival in question does not "worship" the dead.

[quote]
If you are not a Christian, then I can understand your attitude. ... your participation here implys that you are a Christian. If so, I request that you tone done attacks on the posts of others.
[/quote]
I'm washed in the same blood, you are, pal ... and so are those who celebrate similar festivals with a whole heart and a strong connection to the principles of their stripe of the faith (oh, pardon me, there's no room for any different flavors of faith, sorry.)

I'm sorry you feel that vehement, strong disagreement is an "attack." If I wanted to issue a real attack, I'd write something like THIS: I'd point out how a person would have to be less than a thinking, responsible adult to swallow "my way or the highway" religion.

My memories of growing up Southern Baptist include one constant: Sunday school wasn't complete until somebody had told somebody (usually with a "poor deluded fool" shake of the head) "I'm sure, Brother [insert name here], that if you read that passage prayerfully you'd see [insert phraseology to indicate how woefully wrong you thing Brother so-and-so is in his interpretation]." Sometimes, the whole affair was simply shortened to "nonsense." Or something similar. Followed by the teacher's warning to settle down and consider the possibility that God might have something a little different to say to one person about his path than he had to say to another person about his path.

So I'm sorry to give as much offense as you seem to have taken.

You have shown me the truth: that God has only one simple and unambiguous way for everybody to follow OR ELSE, and those darned Catholics (Lutherans, Episcopalians, and on and on...anyone who doesn't agree with ME) are just completely off the track and are going straight to H-E-double-diddly-L.

And that's without even going into the whole Harry Potter issue.

[*Sigh*]
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 27, 2005 05:52PM)
Ross, I must confess it has been awhile since I have seen such a post like yours. Your arguments are not exactly on target.

For example, you wrote:

[quote]
"So one either believes ... or one does not ... no room for questions, no room for the Lord to light the way for you any differently than he lights it for anyone else, no room (oh, pal, just tell Paul this, just tell Peter this) for the slightest differences... no room to COME to a maturing of your faith, no room to grow BEYOND where your faith has led you hitherto (and be just as faithful at the beginning of your maturation as you are at the end) ... must be nice to be so pure, it would be nice if only it was Biblical."
[/quote]

I can hardly believe what I am reading. These are simply unbelievable assumptions, not even closely related to what BroDavid posted.

[quote]
"Those rascally Catholics, just can't let 'em get away with a thing!
Hard to see how they can call themselves Christians like ME, right? I'm sure their errors must greive God. By the way (careful, now, studying might lead you to opening your mind) the festival in question does not "worship" the dead."
[/quote]

Ross, this boggles the mind. You are making tremendously inaccurate assumptions about BroDavid with little to go on, making sure that you take gratuitous swipes at him in the process. The apostle Paul corrected error, Ross. So did Jesus. There is an important reason for this.

[quote]
"I'm sorry you feel that vehement, strong disagreement is an "attack." If I wanted to issue a real attack, I'd write something like THIS: I'd point out how a person would have to be less than a thinking, responsible adult to swallow "my way or the highway" religion."
[/quote]

Well, Ross, you certainly do know how to attack. That is clear. And you have made clear that you believe in the "my way or the highway" way of thinking. If BroDavid disagrees with you regarding what is honoring to God, the result is a "my way or the highway" response from you.

[quote]
"My memories of growing up Southern Baptist include one constant: Sunday school wasn't complete until somebody had told somebody (usually with a "poor deluded fool" shake of the head) "I'm sure, Brother [insert name here], that if you read that passage prayerfully you'd see [insert phraseology to indicate how woefully wrong you thing Brother so-and-so is in his interpretation]." Sometimes, the whole affair was simply shortened to "nonsense."
[/quote]

Ross, this is the exact approach you have taken with BroDavid.

[quote]
"Followed by the teacher's warning to settle down and consider the possibility that God might have something a little different to say to one person about his path than he had to say to another person about his path."
[/quote]

Within reason, of course. When Paul told the Galatians the false teachers there were to be accursed, surely he wasn't saying that the Lord just had something a little different to say to them.

[quote]
"You have shown me the truth: that God has only one simple and unambiguous way for everybody to follow OR ELSE, and those darned Catholics (Lutherans, Episcopalians, and on and on...anyone who doesn't agree with ME) are just completely off the track and are going straight to H-E-double-diddly-L."
[/quote]

Ross, this last paragraph is absolutely reprehensible. You have created an unbelievable straw man, named him BroDavid, and knocked it down with as much relish as you could muster.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 27, 2005 06:28PM)
Ooohhhh dems fightin words! It looks as if the proverbial 95 theses are about to be nailed to the virtual cathedral door.

I'm glad that for me Halloween is simply a secular holiday (but then for me they all are) and I don't have to worry about all the metaphysical baggage others try to make me carry cause I like to dress up and watch scary movies every year on the 31st of October.

If you don't like Halloween then by all means don't celebrate it. Lock your doors and close your blinds and say a prayer for all those lost souls you think are sliding down that slippery slope because they dane to put on a scary mask or picnic in the cemetery.

Hey, if one never sinned one could never repent now could they?
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 27, 2005 06:39PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-27 19:28, Payne wrote:
Ooohhhh dems fightin words! It looks as if the proverbial 95 theses are about to be nailed to the virtual cathedral door.
[/quote]

LOL

[quote]
I'm glad that for me Halloween is simply a secular holiday (but then for me they all are) and I don't have to worry about all the metaphysical baggage others try to make me carry cause I like to dress up and watch scary movies every year on the 31st of October.
[/quote]

The last few years the movies they show are not as good as the ones they used to, IMO (Christopher Lee, Peter Cushing, et al...) I remember going to see "The House of Wax" in 3-D (at the local theatre) on Halloween.
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Oct 27, 2005 07:10PM)
I have enjoy this thread of arguements and discussions. I have enjoyed Ross' comments, and I always enjoy it when Euangelion chimes in... (and Paynes). BroDavid, I always like it when you chime in as well.

I haven't seen this honest of a conversation here for a while. Actually it have moved this area into an interesting realm. Don't get me wrong, I like effects, etc. But this is where it get really fun. (In the right corner we have...)

And I mean that. If we can't have disagreements with one another in the Church, well then almost all of Paul's letters wouldn't have been written. These were not small disagreements as well. Two sides, going at it...

Our Bishop, Rev. Mark Hanson, when we are about to talk about issues that pull us to different "sides," reminds us that as we discuss these things we do so as people who sit in the same waters of baptism. It is the same God that redeems us. It is the same Christ that rose from the Dead.

Speaking of 95 Thesis... My entire "Reformation Sunday" sermon is on Trick or Treating, and how Grace is always a treat, and the trick is remembering it.

Grace all the way my friends! Free Grace.

RevJohn
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 27, 2005 07:59PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-27 19:39, Chessmann wrote:

The last few years the movies they show are not as good as the ones they used to, IMO (Christopher Lee, Peter Cushing, et al...) I remember going to see "The House of Wax" in 3-D (at the local theatre) on Halloween.

[/quote]

I concur. Give ma an old Hitchcock or a Hammer film over any of these over produced "splatter" films any day.
Did you know the director of the original 3-d House of Wax only had one eye so he couldn't see 3-D.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 27, 2005 08:16PM)
No! I didn't know that. Bummer for him.
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Oct 27, 2005 09:55PM)
Thank you, RevJohn.

[quote]
Chessmann wrote:
I can hardly believe what I am reading. These are simply unbelievable assumptions, not even closely related to what BroDavid posted.
[/quote]
Looks pretty close, to me, to "you either believe or you do not." [Pause here for a chorus of "All or Nothing at All."]

[quote]
Chessmann wrote:
You are making tremendously inaccurate assumptions about BroDavid with little to go on, making sure that you take gratuitous swipes at him in the process. The apostle Paul corrected error, Ross. So did Jesus. There is an important reason for this.
[/quote]
Little to go on, other than what he wrote. "Is it right to honor the memories of those who have gone before us and given much for us? Of course it is. ... But I don't put on scarey masks or picnic in the cemetery. Do I think that those who do so, are simply enjoying a harmless diversion? No I do not." We were at that moment referring to the Mexican festival "Dia de los Muertos." Practicing, faithful Catholics picnic in cemeteries and make little 'shrines' to the memories of the departed. When the Pope calls it heresy, I'll condemn the practice as unfaithful, 'a slippery slope.' I don't feel quite as free to do so as BroDavid.

[quote]
BroDavid wrote:
too many want to have a broad personal flavor of Christianity, and ignore the narrow road.
[/quote]
That, Chessmann, is "my way or the highway." As in, "you're just not a Christian if you don't do like I approve of."

[quote]
Chessmann wrote:
Ross, this [referring to my vigorous and demonstrative disagreement-Ross] is the exact approach you have taken with BroDavid.
[/quote]
Exactly, I quite agree - 100%

[quote]
Chessmann wrote:
You have created an unbelievable straw man, named him BroDavid, and knocked it down with as much relish as you could muster.

BroDavid wrote:
your participation here implys that you are a Christian. ... If you are not a Christian, then I can understand your attitude.
[/quote]
Neither of you wants to know what I have to say about that. I promise you, you don't.

Galatians 2:11 "When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong."
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 27, 2005 11:23PM)
Ross wrote:

Galatians 2:11 "When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong."

*****

It is one thing to oppose or disagree. It is quite another to do as you did.
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Oct 28, 2005 01:26AM)
Then I offer apologies to all whom I may have offended, and an invitation to air opinions (agreeing, disagreeing, or entirely other) to those who may have found the discussion refreshingly frank.

Apparently, there are posters above who hold each opinion.
Message: Posted by: drkptrs1975 (Oct 28, 2005 07:16AM)
I just do what I do. I don't care for Halloween, I know many Christians are agianst it, but I just don't care for it, and will not hammer on anyone who does. I do stuff 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Oct 28, 2005 11:17AM)
Since I really think I hear what Ross is saying, my guess is that if we were sitting around a table having Coffee, Tea or Water, we would be a little less agitated by the conversation.

Amazing what happens when one can't read tone. Of course I am just making assumptions about everyone's tone. But Ross reminds me of a friend (and a little of myself) so I am translating a different tone.

And of course, anyone who can get a Ned Flanders quote in an arguement can't be all that on a warpath.

Just my two cents.

But I always think it is interesting that we think Paul did anything less... this is the guy that before he "saw the light"(literally)was killing Christians. It seems that his personality had a tendency to get a little heated. So, who is to say that Peter and Paul didn't get into some huge argument. "Opposing him to his face," and "we disagreed" would take different Greek words to write. And my guess is that by the time it was written down, emotions had calmed a little more. Could you imagine what he wanted to write at the first meeting! Wooo Boy.

Revjohn
Message: Posted by: Leland Stone (Oct 28, 2005 12:15PM)
It is clear that BroDavid made a blanket statement expressing his disapproval of Catholic Mexico's celebration of Dia De Los Muertos. It is also clear that Ross made a relevant response to that statement.

What is not clear is whether Ross made a "personal attack" simply by expressing his viewpoint. His opening salvo of "Nonsense" was politically incorrect, and I'm uncertain what form of rhetoric is acceptable these days when succinctly describing the other party's views as poorly grounded in fact. But Ross's usage does seem to have been just that: A rhetorical tactic.

Not that Ross is without rhetorical blunder! His comparison of this cyber tete-a-tete with that which brewed between Peter & Paul is, as Chessman pointed out, an apples-to-oranges comparison. Or gnats-to-camels. In other words, there is no comparing a dispute between apostles over foundational doctrine, to a difference of conscience between believers regarding the peripheral application of doctrine.

It seems to me that BroDavid is rightly concerned about dishonouring God, but may be a bit zealous in what constitutes dishonour -- at least, with regard to the actions of others. Since Ross has apologized for any offense he's caused, I hope the conversation may continue in the vein and spirit suggested by Revjohn.

As for visiting a cemetery to honour the dead, what a capital idea! Is there any other place in which one would have found an Empty Tomb?

Leland
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 28, 2005 12:44PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-28 13:15, Leland Stone wrote:

As for visiting a cemetery to honour the dead, what a capital idea!

[/quote]

Why else would we have cemetaries but to honour the dead? All cultures have some sort of ancestor recognition (dare I say worship?).
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Oct 28, 2005 02:32PM)
I thought it was to bury them?
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Oct 28, 2005 03:07PM)
Off the subject, but I just had an elder gentleman tell me:

"In Ireland, a way to ask a woman to marry you is say, 'Would you like to be buried with my people?'"

Found it an interesting way to ask.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 28, 2005 03:39PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-28 15:32, GlenD wrote:
I thought it was to bury them?
[/quote]

We also bury trash but we rarely make monuments and memorials for it.
If revering the dead wasn't important to our culture we'd simply make Soylent Green out of them.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 28, 2005 04:33PM)
[quote]
Since Ross has apologized for any offense he's caused, I hope the conversation may continue in the vein and spirit suggested by Revjohn.
[/quote]

Amen, as it is an interesting topic!
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 28, 2005 05:32PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-28 13:15, Leland Stone wrote:

I hope the conversation may continue in the vein and spirit suggested

[/quote]

Yes since we are talking about spirits
Message: Posted by: tomrav (Oct 29, 2005 12:42PM)
Back to the Halloween issue, I'm in the UK and recently, I was talking to an American who's over at our Church for a year, we were talking about Halloween and she was saying that Christians don't really mak such a big deal out of it, they just dress up and go trick or treating, whereas in the UK, hardly any Christians would go out trick or treating, let alone do a Halloween show.

Now, I think I'm on the side of quite a few Americains in that Halloween is just another way people have a fun day. I don't see how dressing up as monsters or the Pied Piper is any more dishonouring to God than doing a card trick or playing a game of tennis.

Going back to BroDavid's first point that if something isn't honouring God, it is therefore Dishonouring God, I personally don't agree because I don't see how a game of tennis (which is just one example out of many) honours God or dishonours God.

BTW, I've never celebrated Halloween because my family would't approve but my American cousins do, there seems to be different attitudes.
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Oct 29, 2005 12:57PM)
One comment that just spurred a thought, and it might have been talked about but it has to do with, "Celebrating..."

What does it take to consider one "celebrating" a particular holiday. We all know those in the states that celebrate Christmas, but also would not fall into the category of celebrating Christ's birth. Just a fact.

So can one go Trick or Treating and not celebrate what some think Halloween stands for?

Thoughts..
Message: Posted by: acmp (Oct 29, 2005 01:56PM)
Wow there's some heavy stuff in this thread.

As for the 31st, I won't be doing anything. My church has organised an 'alternative evening' for the younger children.

When I was a child I'd go trick or treating. I will still get some treats just in case someone knocks on my door though.

I don't celebrate halloween, I don't do ramadan either, they just aren't Christian.

If I was asked to perform at a halloween party I'd decline, if it was a ramadan celebration I'd decline that too, they're just not my thing.

I have a Christmas party comming up, that should be fun.
Message: Posted by: acmp (Oct 29, 2005 02:06PM)
Wow there's some heavy stuff in this thread.

As for the 31st, I won't be doing anything. My church has organised an 'alternative evening' for the younger children.

When I was a child I'd go trick or treating. I will still get some treats just in case someone knocks on my door though.

I don't celebrate halloween, I don't do ramadan either, they just aren't Christian.

If I was asked to perform at a halloween party I'd decline, if it was a ramadan celebration I'd decline that too, they're just not my thing.

I have a Christmas party comming up, that should be fun.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 29, 2005 03:26PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-29 13:42, tomrav wrote:
Going back to BroDavid's first point that if something isn't honouring God, it is therefore Dishonouring God I personally don't agree....
[/quote]

Christ himself said, "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters." (Luke 11:23) For a christian, we should try to honor God in everything we do.

[quote]
....because I don't see how a game of tennis (which is just one example out of many) honours God or dishonours God.
[/quote]

The point, I believe, is that as a Christian, is one doing whatever you do to the glory of God - be it what you celebrate(a good point there made by RevJohn), or a tennis game, or whatever. The scriptures say to do whatever you do to the glory of God. So while it may sound silly at first blush, a tennis game *can* honor God if the participant(s) have the mindset of using their skills with thanksgiving to the Lord for giving them the skill to play and with the hope that their play will reflect christian character and behavior to those watching.

I play soccer in a league. It puts me in contact with people I may only see once. Can God use the soccer game to bring the oppportunity to share with someone? Of course!

"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved." I Cor 10:31-33
Message: Posted by: tomrav (Oct 29, 2005 03:45PM)
Fair point chessman.
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Oct 29, 2005 06:10PM)
Payne is right...he is always right...

youre real brave comin' down here alone amongst the zealots...I commend you...

and I respect all paths to the Most High...
Message: Posted by: Clifford the Red (Oct 29, 2005 06:17PM)
I think it is a specious assertion that "if you do not honor, you dishonor." and then to attempt to define what "honors" is treading on dangerous waters.

There are many examples of scripture where an act is both honorable and dishonorable based on intent. And many examples where Jesus REBUKED those who attempted to judge a person's intent.

Intent is a personal thing between you and God. Man looks on the outside but only God looks on the heart.

I find all of the attempts to place judgement on people participating in Halloween to be a bit appalling and indicative more of a faulty education on the subject rather than a Biblical grounding. For one, the deeper psychological meanings in Halloween celebrations are evocative of understanding true human nature. One may wear a mask on Halloween and come to understand the masks that are worn everywhere, every day, including church, especially by one's self. A deeper understanding may help one become more honest and true and shed hypocrisy in their everyday character. "To thine own self be true..." I would consider a person who can put on a mask on Halloween to remind them to shed masks of dishonesty in their everyday life to be a valuable thing.
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Oct 29, 2005 10:45PM)
[quote]
Intent is a personal thing between you and God. Man looks on the outside but only God looks on the heart.
[/quote]
Precisely - while I support everyone else's right to air their opinions about right relations with God (certainly I have felt free to air mine), I stop short when the conversation gets to "how can you call yourself a Christian if...[fill in the blank.]"

I was taught a PERSONAL relationship with God, and I have one ... God has demonstrated to me again and again that we are "tight" (otherwise how could he have doled out so much grace to me so many times?) ... but almost as soon as I did have a personal relationship with God, all sorts of people came out of the woodwork trying to tell me exactly how our relationship "had to" be.

And I upset people then and now, because that relationship is as intimate as a relationship can be, and I am no more interested in receiving comments and criticism on my relationship to God than I am in receiving comments and criticism on my relationship with my wife.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 30, 2005 12:38AM)
This thread has had a lot of discussion around the periphery.

We have discussed Halloween, but not (many? any?) specific reasons for/against Halloween.

Ross wrote:

"Precisely - while I support everyone else's right to air their opinions about right relations with God (certainly I have felt free to air mine), I stop short when the conversation gets to "how can you call yourself a Christian if...[fill in the blank.]"

Correct me if I missed it, but we have read that people do/don't participate in Halloween, and that participating in Halloween does/does not dishonour God, but I do not think I have seen specific very specific reasons why.

And since question Ross poses above ("How can you call yourself....") can be used from either perspective in this discussion, it will be an easy thing to get nowhere fast if we don't get real specific.

If we want to get anywhere, we must list reasons while at the same time submitting to scripture. However, I don't think anything ever really gets settled on a web board, so..... ;^)

I do believe that if you are not honoring God, you are dishonoring Him.

Education in the scriptures is the key here - BOTH FOR THOSE WHO WOULD ENGAGE IN WHATEVER ACTION IT IS THAT IS IN QUESTION, AS WELL AS FOR THE PERSON WHO WOULD CORRECT SOMEONE ELSE.

One thing that causes our differences is our past and personal experience with, in this case, Halloween. But we there are many issues like this, such as alcohol, prayer in schools, etc, etc....

In the last chapter of Acts, Paul reasoned from the scriptures with many people about Christ. "And some believed, and some did not believe." But again, I don't think a web board discussion will solve much. Usually, things end up just going in a circle.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 30, 2005 12:43AM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-29 23:45, rossmacrae wrote:
....I am no more interested in receiving comments and criticism on my relationship to God than I am in receiving comments and criticism on my relationship with my wife.
[/quote]

Perhaps look on those comments and criticism as an opportunity to share with them, and that what you share may be a perspective that they have never thought of before.
Message: Posted by: Clifford the Red (Oct 30, 2005 12:55AM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-30 01:38, Chessmann wrote:

We have discussed Halloween, but not (many? any?) specific reasons for/against Halloween.

Correct me if I missed it, but we have read that people do/don't participate in Halloween, and that participating in Halloween does/does not dishonour God, but I do not think I have seen specific very specific reasons why.

[/quote]

The entire last paragraph of my previous post was devoted to a specific example. Any celebration, Christian or not, is a bit pointless unless you take time to place meaning on it. With a tiny bit of effort, profound meaning can become a part of the tradition. Even Christmas contains profound meanings in the many traditions of the season that are missed.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 30, 2005 12:44AM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-29 19:10, Gede Nibo wrote:

Payne is right...he is always right...

[/quote]

This is going on my promotional material
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Oct 30, 2005 09:01AM)
[quote]
Perhaps look on those comments and criticism as an opportunity to share with them, and that what you share may be a perspective that they have never thought of before.
[/quote]
But it's MY relationship, not theirs.

We may be instructed to share the Good News with others, but I don't recall being instructed to try to mold every believer into exactly my shape.

I have had enough chapter-and-verse thrown at me because I'm not exactly what someone else thinks I should be, and there is enough scripture that someone can find a passage (or distort one) to support just about anything. Lest anyone think I am claiming to be "my own always-right measuring stick," I can point to any number of my own errors and sins - but the Lord and I deal with them. When I signed on for "a closer walk with Thee," I didn't sign on for an equally close walk with thee and thee and thee and her and the guy over in the corner.

Wanna get back to Halloween? Easily done! Easily done, and I will use the issue to put to rest, once and for all, that "you believe or you don't, it honors God or dishonors Him" nonsense.

It's All Hallow's Eve (and by the way, you can't have All Hallows Eve unless you have an All Saints Day to follow.) And there's a man new in the faith, full of enthusiasm and with a heartfelt desire to really share the Good News that has changed his life. And he gives out tracts instead of candy to trick-or-treaters. I am convinced that that man is honoring God, putting his faith into action with works - surely he feels a renewal and a deepening of the meaning of God in his life. And I am equally convinced that the trick-or-treaters will go away feeling cheated (any word you care to put to the frustration of their expectations) and the next day, at school, at least some people will be talking about that "crazy old guy who gave out Jesus pamphlets instead of candy." One man's faith strengthened, twenty kids figuring that Jesus takes your wits away along with your sins. In their experience, God was dishonored ... their opinion of the faith was certainly lower after the experience than it was before (and by the way, do you SERIOUSLY think anyone read one of those tracts, slapped his head, shouted 'I've been such a fool!' and came to church the next day? No, SERIOUSLY.

Likewise those idiotic "Halloween Horror Houses" full of depictions of the horrors of abortion, drugs, voting Democratic, girls wearing immodest clothes, and treating your homosexual neighbor like any other fellow taxpaying citizen. Do they honor God, or does the nationwide scorn of such antics just place Christians more firmly in the loony bin, in the view of the millions who see and laugh at them.

Alternative parties on the same night, where the kids can dress up like Old Testament figures in the church basement, so they won't go out and dress up like the devil, or a pokemon, or Spongebob, or that evil Princess Leia? Ask a kid you think will tell you the truth, and not what he thinks you want to hear, whether he liked being hauled to such an event - do you really think he's going to say 'I feel so much closer to Jesus now,' or is he much more likely to say 'My parents are so blinking lame.'??? Does it honor God or dishonor him?

Getting in a fuss about Halloween just trivializes the issue of good and evil. The Bible says no one living has seen God face to face, and I suppose no one has seen Satan that way either, but those of us who have seen Satan a little closer - in war, in places where unspeakable horrors have taken place, in the eyes of children and men and women who have lived through things most of us can't imagine ... those of us who have seen Satan that close know that real evil is way WAY more serious stuff than Halloween.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 30, 2005 10:13AM)
OK, Ross.
Message: Posted by: snap (Oct 30, 2005 12:48PM)
While you are right, ross, and many make way too much of a fuss about some things (like trick or treating), and we DEFINATELY shouldn't be judgemental of people who do go trick or treating, I find something wrong with those who go out dressed as witches, goblins, and devils. although I will not say that those who dress as these things are condemned doomed to hell, or whatever else, I will not even say that their horrible people, many of them simply don't know any better.

as christians, we are called to a higher standard of living. this is one of those touchy subjects, that may be enterpreted different ways, depending on how you look at it. personally, I'm not going to go out trick or treating when there's a chance I could be honoring god instead, sharing the gospel, or simply talking with someone and showing them how a christian acts and functions. but I don't think that it's necessarily wrong for a christian to go trick or treating. but, my point is, our job is to bring people to christ. jesus said, "i am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the father, but through me." this means that he is the ONLY way, if someone doesn't know him, they aint goin' anywhere but down. we need to set an example for those who don't know him yet, to, hopefully, bring people to him. anything that has even a sliver of a chance of taking some one from the devil and giving him to christ, I say it's worth doing. the bible says that the angels rejoice when a single person comes to christ. shouldn't we try to be the one to bring that person into heaven?
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 30, 2005 02:13PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-30 13:48, snap wrote:

While you are right, ross, and many make way too much of a fuss about some things (like trick or treating), and we DEFINATELY shouldn't be judgemental of people who do go trick or treating, I find something wrong with those who go out dressed as witches, goblins, and devils. although I will not say that those who dress as these things are condemned doomed to hell, or whatever else, I will not even say that their horrible people, many of them simply don't know any better.

[/quote]

Many say ther same of those who waste two or three hours every Sunday going to hear old songs and someone reading aloud passages from an archaic text.
Many of them simply don't know any better? Yeah that attitude is going to bring many what you consider "lost souls" into the fold.
I think there's a passage in that big old book you read the says something like "judge not lest thee be judged.

Of every one here I really have to take sides with Ross as he really seems to have a handle on the "leading through actions" thing. Not that I'm any closer to converting or anything.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 30, 2005 02:23PM)
[/quote]

I think there's a passage in that big old book you read the says something like "judge not lest thee be judged.

[/quote]

And like many people, you have taken that quote out of its context.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 30, 2005 02:31PM)
More later ;^)

Sorry - got started but couldn't finish.
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Oct 30, 2005 03:24PM)
We all wear masks, many masks everday...some put on a special mask on that Sunday mornin', and promptly remove it as soon as they leave the building...

the bottom line is, without a doubt that if you debase Halloween as Pagan then you MUST also do the same for even your most sacred holidays...just face it, its truth...

And I hope all of you that think its sinful celebrate halloween, ALSO refuse to celebrate your Saviors supposed Birthday by purchasing countless material goods for you temporary satisfaction...I think your Savior wouldnt like such gluttonous, greedy, desire ridden actions to be acted out on his Birthday...

'sides, if you listen to your Bible so well, then get out of Magic, for it says over again, that we are bad people...even though it was the three Mage that did find your Baby Savior...

I hope someone reads this before they delete me as usual...
Message: Posted by: Tim Ellis (Oct 30, 2005 04:42PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-30 16:24, Gede Nibo wrote:
'sides, if you listen to your Bible so well, then get out of Magic, for it says over again, that we are bad people...even though it was the three Mage that did find your Baby Savior...[/quote]


A lot of people, even Christians, misunderstand the meanings of translated words like 'Magic' and 'Magician'. That's where a good concordance can be of assistance when reading the Bible.


Regarding the original thread, we just staged our own 'Halloween Spooktacular' on October 29 at the same hall we go to Church in on Sundays. It's just a council hall rented out for all sorts of purposes including Church, yet one person rang up our ticketing agency and told them off for having such an event in a "Church building" (This hall also has weekly yoga sessions among other things *g*). As we discovered later, the person who called didn't even go to the Church.

BTW: Our pastor is also a magician, Adrian Kebbe (aka Harry Houdidn't) and he had no objections to our event whatsoever.

You can read the full report of our event on our blog (see the link in my signature) but, just to make our viewpoint clear to our guests, we printed the following in our Spooktacular programme:

Some say Halloween began as a tradition of the ancient Celts. It was the last day of summer and a day, they believed, that the spirits of those who had died that year would walk the earth looking for bodies to possess. Does that mean that ghosts really exist?

We know the dead do not return, as it says in the Bible:
“Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement.” Hebrews 9:27

Let’s take it a little further… does the devil really exist?
C.S. Lewis wrote “The greatest trick the devil pulled was convincing the world that he didn’t exist.” He’s done this by portraying himself in so many different ways that we assume him to be just another creation of someone’s vivid imagination, like Frankenstein, Dracula or even Freddy Kruger. The only difference is imaginary creatures might scare you, but they can’t hurt you.
Most people aren’t scared of the devil, yet the Bible says:
“Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaming lion
looking for someone to devour.” 1 Peter 5:8

Enjoy your Halloween responsibly.
Message: Posted by: snap (Oct 30, 2005 05:33PM)
Right on.
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Oct 30, 2005 05:44PM)
The whole book has been misinterpreted beyond belief...

but I never read anything in there that says its sinful for young lads to come to my door asking for candy, dressed in funny costumes...

Gods, Devils..in the mind...

Tim, thanks for your kind post, I felt no anger there, and this is swell...

I'm outta here lest I be exorcised...
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 30, 2005 07:25PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-30 18:44, Gede Nibo wrote:
The whole book has been misinterpreted beyond belief...
[/quote]

When there are differences of opinion, particularly over the text of scripture, careful exegesis of the text is necessary. Too many times a scripture verse will be taken from its context and used to validate something it doesn't actually address.
Message: Posted by: Turk (Oct 30, 2005 08:24PM)
Boy!! This thread gives new meaning to the phrase "Holier than thou". (And not to be confused with the phrase "Holier than Thou".)

Mike
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 30, 2005 09:01PM)
True enough (and don't we know both sides of this coin feel this way!).
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 30, 2005 09:27PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-30 10:01, rossmacrae wrote:
[quote]
Perhaps look on those comments and criticism as an opportunity to share with them, and that what you share may be a perspective that they have never thought of before.
[/quote]
But it's MY relationship, not theirs.

We may be instructed to share the Good News with others, but I don't recall being instructed to try to mold every believer into exactly my shape.

I have had enough chapter-and-verse thrown at me because I'm not exactly what someone else thinks I should be, and there is enough scripture that someone can find a passage (or distort one) to support just about anything. Lest anyone think I am claiming to be "my own always-right measuring stick," I can point to any number of my own errors and sins - but the Lord and I deal with them. When I signed on for "a closer walk with Thee," I didn't sign on for an equally close walk with thee and thee and thee and her and the guy over in the corner.

Wanna get back to Halloween? Easily done! Easily done, and I will use the issue to put to rest, once and for all, that "you believe or you don't, it honors God or dishonors Him" nonsense.

It's All Hallow's Eve (and by the way, you can't have All Hallows Eve unless you have an All Saints Day to follow.) And there's a man new in the faith, full of enthusiasm and with a heartfelt desire to really share the Good News that has changed his life. And he gives out tracts instead of candy to trick-or-treaters. I am convinced that that man is honoring God, putting his faith into action with works - surely he feels a renewal and a deepening of the meaning of God in his life. And I am equally convinced that the trick-or-treaters will go away feeling cheated (any word you care to put to the frustration of their expectations) and the next day, at school, at least some people will be talking about that "crazy old guy who gave out Jesus pamphlets instead of candy." One man's faith strengthened, twenty kids figuring that Jesus takes your wits away along with your sins. In their experience, God was dishonored ... their opinion of the faith was certainly lower after the experience than it was before (and by the way, do you SERIOUSLY think anyone read one of those tracts, slapped his head, shouted 'I've been such a fool!' and came to church the next day? No, SERIOUSLY.

Likewise those idiotic "Halloween Horror Houses" full of depictions of the horrors of abortion, drugs, voting Democratic, girls wearing immodest clothes, and treating your homosexual neighbor like any other fellow taxpaying citizen. Do they honor God, or does the nationwide scorn of such antics just place Christians more firmly in the loony bin, in the view of the millions who see and laugh at them.

Alternative parties on the same night, where the kids can dress up like Old Testament figures in the church basement, so they won't go out and dress up like the devil, or a pokemon, or Spongebob, or that evil Princess Leia? Ask a kid you think will tell you the truth, and not what he thinks you want to hear, whether he liked being hauled to such an event - do you really think he's going to say 'I feel so much closer to Jesus now,' or is he much more likely to say 'My parents are so blinking lame.'??? Does it honor God or dishonor him?

Getting in a fuss about Halloween just trivializes the issue of good and evil. The Bible says no one living has seen God face to face, and I suppose no one has seen Satan that way either, but those of us who have seen Satan a little closer - in war, in places where unspeakable horrors have taken place, in the eyes of children and men and women who have lived through things most of us can't imagine ... those of us who have seen Satan that close know that real evil is way WAY more serious stuff than Halloween.
[/quote]

Ross, you are all over the map - strawman, choosing the very worst examples of the opposing point of view and arguing against them, guilt by association.
Message: Posted by: Clifford the Red (Oct 30, 2005 10:11PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-30 20:25, Chessmann wrote:
[quote]
Too many times a scripture verse will be taken from its context and used to validate something it doesn't actually address.
[/quote]

And too many times a scripture will be ignored because it is counter to one's position.
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Oct 30, 2005 10:15PM)
[quote]
Ross, you are all over the map - strawman, choosing the very worst examples of the opposing point of view and arguing against them, guilt by association.
[/quote]
Then don't give me such a wide map to be all over - the very worst examples of the opposing point of view are still very real examples, and they make the faith look foolish and trivial.

And by the way, when I was young in the faith, I was "guilty" of passing out tracts at the most inappropriate times, and causing far more embarrassment and annoyance than anything else. I was acting from the heart, but I'd have done much better (and been far more effective) to act a little more from the head.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 30, 2005 11:21PM)
Yes, we have all, indeed, "had our days". Definitely.
Message: Posted by: Donnie W (Oct 31, 2005 08:18AM)
quote "But it's MY relationship, not theirs."
-------------------------------------------------
Very true, Our personal relationship with Christ has to be based on His Word not on what we feel or what others think.


--------------------------------------------------
quote "do you SERIOUSLY think anyone read one of those tracts, slapped his head, shouted 'I've been such a fool!' and came to church the next day? No, SERIOUSLY."
--------------------------------------------------
YES Give candy with the tract no disappointed kids. We don't know the eternal impact of what we do. Maybe they will slap their head and see stars, I mean the Light. More likely that seed planted will grow along with other seeds planted by God.


----------------
"Alternative parties on the same night, ....... Ask a kid you think will tell you the truth,........ , whether he liked being hauled to such an event - do you really think he's going to say 'I feel so much closer to Jesus now,' or is he much more likely to say 'My parents are so blinking lame.'??? Does it honor God or dishonor him? "
----------------------
Our Children's church has about 25 kids, we had 310 kids and about 200 adults at our alternative event last night. They must not think it is too lame. The plan of Salvation was presented and God's love shown. I hope God was honoured 73 Donnie

Getting in a fuss about Halloween just trivializes the issue of good and evil. The Bible says no one living has seen God face to face, and I suppose no one has seen Satan that way either, but those of us who have seen Satan a little closer - in war, in places where unspeakable horrors have taken place, in the eyes of children and men and women who have lived through things most of us can't imagine ... those of us who have seen Satan that close know that real evil is way WAY more serious stuff than Halloween.
Message: Posted by: Donnie W (Oct 31, 2005 08:22AM)
Forgive my typeing forgot to proofread my post. Last paragragh should be deleted
73 Donnie
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Oct 31, 2005 09:54AM)
I just have to ask, since it isn't a phrase I hear a lot.

What do you mean by "Strawman"? It sounds like a nice way to throw out an insult... but I don't know. SO I am asking.

RevJohn
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 31, 2005 11:00AM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-31 10:54, RevJohn wrote:
I just have to ask, since it isn't a phrase I hear a lot.

What do you mean by "Strawman"? It sounds like a nice way to throw out an insult... but I don't know. SO I am asking.

RevJohn
[/quote]

It is not an insult, nor is it something that you "call" somebody. I'll PM you.
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Oct 31, 2005 11:15AM)
Oh no, if I don't celebrate Halloween then I MUST not celebrate Christmas or Easter either! Regardless of whether or not my family engages in gluttonous materialism along with the ackowledgement and celebration of the saviors birth.
Why, because someone says so!? Some bizarre demand is required as a result of not celebrating a ghoulish or, as some "perceive" it, satanic holiday? Even if I or others are wrong and uninforned about the origin of this Halloween holiday. I can still just decide to not celebrate or participate in it. It does not mean I have to cease from participating in other Holidays. What kind fo nonsense is that ? And even if the 25th of December is not the exact day, blah blah blah... or hey, that calendar was different than our calendar now and uh your celebrating something that did'nt even happen on the day you celebrate it on!!! Oh my gosh, I guess the whole plan of salvation, new and old testaments are all of no value anymore. A major coup and victory for all the non-believers and hopeful faith stealers out there!

Well, guess what, it just is'nt that simple and the gates of hell and all that work to carry out the enemies plans will never prevail. The victory was won before the enemy even realized what happened.

Even if the Christmas holiday were to vanish or be wiped off the calendars, that would not change anything. So what's with the constant attempt to convince believers that one of their most sacred of holidays is somehow flawed or ill-conceived or whatever? I don't get it?

I just had to chime in.

By the way, I am a very easy going person, as anyone who knows me can attest. I enjoy the horror flicks and spooky kooky stuff and find Halloween a fun holiday.
On a surfacy level, as far as dressing up and just having fun with it. But I don't make a big deal out of it to some of my Christian brothers who feel differently or whatever. And I don't want to make my non-believeing friends feel judged or anything by any kind of pretentions that I might have.

I am actually quite amazed that this topic hasnt been locked yet!

GlenD
Message: Posted by: Neale - Bacon (Oct 31, 2005 12:26PM)
If it's not too late. I'd like to get back to the original question - My halloween show is called The Happy Halloween Spooktacular Safety Show and emphasises the fun aspects like costumes and candy, and shows kids how to have a safe halloween.

The closest I get to scary is a story about a Haunted House where I have a skelton the keeps appearing and vanishing.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 31, 2005 12:36PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-31 12:15, GlenD wrote:

I am actually quite amazed that this topic hasnt been locked yet!

[/quote]

I think it's because we have kept this on a pretty adult level so far with a bare minimum of name calling and finger pointing.
I congratulate everyone on being somewhat civil to one another on this topic. I really think we're pretty much on the same page on this one, different books but the same page number more or less.
I think Halloween has become the second most celebrated holiday in this country, second only to Xmas because there is no emotional baggage associated with it. No long traditions of having to get together with family or giving gifts or having to cook large and complex meals. It's a pretty free form totally secular holiday and therefor you're allowed to celebrate it anyway you like. It can be all adult or all kids or any combination in between. Lavish and extravagant or not celebrated at all. The perfect Rorschach Holiday. No expectations and you get out of what you put into it.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 31, 2005 01:30PM)
[quote]
I think Halloween has become the second most celebrated holiday in this country, second only to Xmas because there is no emotional baggage associated with it. No long traditions of having to get together with family or giving gifts or having to cook large and complex meals. It's a pretty free form totally secular holiday and therefor you're allowed to celebrate it anyway you like. It can be all adult or all kids or any combination in between. Lavish and extravagant or not celebrated at all. The perfect Rorschach Holiday. No expectations and you get out of what you put into it.
[/quote]

Very interesting observation. I had never thought about the why's and wherefore's from that particular perspective. Nor did I know that Halloween was the second-most celebrated holiday.
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Oct 31, 2005 01:44PM)
[quote]
What do you mean by "Strawman"?
[/quote]
An argumentative technique in which The arguer easily knocks down a proposition never offered by the opponent (usually weaker than the true proposition) and then attacks it as if his opponent had offered that proposition.

One sees it in annoying campaign ads: Candidate X opposes a law that would allow warrantless searches of private households looking for illegal aliens, and Candidate Y claims "My opponent supports illegal immigration."

I'm not sure I agree 100% that I used that technique - perhaps Chessmann did not, himself, propose some of the things I ridiculed, but I maintain that such things are examples of the type of hysterical thinking engaged in by many (perhaps even most - certainly the most vocal) opponents of celebrating Halloween.

It's unpleasant to rely on ridicule (as I have) but some people make it so tempting - certainly ridicule may be called for when something is ridiculous.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 31, 2005 01:55PM)
Ross,

I visited your website last night. Enjoyed it. Nice to see you offering the kind of entertainment that you do for kids.

Mark
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Oct 31, 2005 09:19PM)
[quote]
I visited your website last night. Enjoyed it. Nice to see you offering the kind of entertainment that you do for kids.
[/quote]
Kind of you to say, thanks.
Message: Posted by: Michael238 (Nov 24, 2005 09:52PM)
There are a lot of good ideas on the Halloween DVD from Kidabra.