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Topic: Gambling Sleight Of Hand
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 18, 2005 10:24PM)
Pardon me if this topic has been previously addressed, a search has yeilded nothing.

I have a few questions. One is whether or not I have missed the forum devoted to the title of this thread, or if one exists?

And second, I am curious to know about some of the mechanics we may have on the board. I doubt there are any that here truly use their skills for real-world deception, but if there are, I can understand their desire for annonymity. However, if there are those that specialize in this field, I would be very willing to communicate with them further, even if just to talk shop.

So have I missed aa forum, and does anyone want to talk gambling sleight of hand?

I guess I could get the ball rolling...

I am not keen to the idea of magicians boasting of technical skill, only to follow with some simple "dealing hand" tricks. To me, it would appear that the ability to only deal winning hands is less than significant. Considering you have the deck in hand 5 times out of 30 hands (with six people) - and the winning of hands on your deal would be suspicious to say the least. Maybe this is more of a pet peeve.

Then again, it makes the job of the true gambling sleight of hand demonstrator appear much more skilled. The ability to control the outcome on hands regardless of dealing status is much more logical. To hand a deck to a spectator and ask for them to shuffle, have another cut, and begin dealing is custom. To be dealt cards by a complete skeptic and have them be the high cards is completely impressive to a layman.

They immediately suspect great skill is involved - something I enjoy (maybe I need that reassurance). It is completely attractive to a layman, as anyone who has ever played cards can always remember when, "if I only had the THIRD ace." The again, maybe it is for those that can't sell magic. I personally can not. My "magic" is billed as intriguing sleight of hand, and nothing more. Mostly because I just can not sell the idea to those watching. I think a gray beard, and 50 years of age under my belt may help that.

It is extremely difficult for a 40 year old man to believe that this 26 year old kid is doing magic - even if you're only aiming for that brief moment of astonishment. It is much more easier for the ego to accept someone of your age has great skill - not to mention the mannerisms of an aged gentleman typically follow suit to what we believe magicians to be - great story tellers.

Please, doon't flood this with, "you need better presentation." That is such a copout, though true to some point, isn't the answer to everything.

I'm simply curious about the forum, and you guys' views on magicians doing "gambling" sleight of hand, or simpley gambling routines in general.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 18, 2005 10:40PM)
Well one thing to consider Kid is that it is completly different from magical sleight of hand. For a good reason. Misdirection is not as much a tool when using it. Therefore the moves are far more subtle and less freequent.

Most gamblers themselvs are more advantage players than anything else. The learning curve to be a good mechanic is servere for getting it wrong.

The other thing is that true gambling moves and such are distinctly not-theatrical in tone and not good for audiences then. This is why most supposed gambling routines deteriorate into a hand dealing demos you hate so much.

Any good advantage player only makes one or two moves a night at most. He makes sure he has huge bets when he does them so it dosn't seem suspicious. Again all of this is non-theatrical. Forget the movies and what you have seen for cheating and such. It is not that way at all.

I share your annoyance with gambling routines to tell the truth. Maybe because I actually play a LOT of gambling games. Have for 25 years. I actually was gambling for a living before I did magic as it works out.

Oh and I NEVER once cheated or anything to gamble. No guts on my part. When I started doing it we did it in the back of bars and pool halls and bowling alleys so you could be hurt pretty bad if you were caught. Plus I don't have enough skill to do it under fire with thousands of dollars on the table. It is a lot tougher to misdirect a guy who has $400 in a pot than a guy out with his wife for a drink.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 19, 2005 03:24AM)
[quote]
Any good advantage player only makes one or two moves a night at most. [/quote]

This is a myth.

[i]Some[/i] good cheats move once or twice a night. Others move from the moment they hit the table until they have all the money. It depends on the game, the person, and the angle they're trying to play.

Vernon used to claim this. He was wrong.

Jason
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 19, 2005 03:39AM)
Is this, THE Jason England?

Please tell me it is. Mr. England, I have much to speak with you about, may we chat via email?

Respectfully,

Michael
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 19, 2005 04:17AM)
I don't think Vernon would have argued with what you say Jason but I don't think it makes him wrong. I think Vernon meant the less you do at the table to get the money by cheating the better cheat you are.
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 19, 2005 04:33AM)
That may have been what Vernon meant, but I would have to disagree.

If you're making moves, and it's working - it's regardless how often you make them.

Sometimes you might not want to be so patient, and create situations. Although impatience shouldn't be in a mechanics vocabulary.

Maybe "patient" should have been used in place of "better."
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 19, 2005 05:18AM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-19 05:17, tommy wrote:
I don't think Vernon would have argued with what you say Jason but I don't think it makes him wrong. I think Vernon meant the less you do at the table to get the money by cheating the better cheat you are.
[/quote]
Or you could just be a good player that likes to cross the fine line between pride and stupidity once in a while..
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 19, 2005 06:07AM)
Tommy,

It isn't an issue of patience, or of being a "better" cheat than someone else. It's a function of the person, the situation, and especially the move itself.

If your "move" is flashing the flop to a partner, you're going to do that every chance you get. It isn't a powerhouse move that will get the money the first time you do it. It's a move that needs to be done often so that your partner has multiple opportunities to "hit" one of those flops. Simply stated: you go to town from the minute you sit down at the table.

Now, if you're a cold-deck man, you're right, once a night will do it.

Somewhere in between those two extremes is where the truth lies. But the myth that the "better" cheats only moved once or twice is just that, a myth.

Vernon may or may not have known he was generalizing, but the many that have parroted that phrase after him usually think it's gospel. It isn't.

Jason

Posted: Nov 19, 2005 7:10am
Quote:
Is this, THE Jason England?

Please tell me it is. Mr. England, I have much to speak with you about, may we chat via email?

Respectfully,

Michael

Actually, this is THE Jason England (whatever that means). A private message is a good way to get in touch with me.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 19, 2005 06:33AM)
“Fast is fine but accuracy is everything.”

-Wyatt Earp-

:)

Posted: Nov 19, 2005 8:41am
I agree with you Jason but when Vernon was saying “a “good” cheat” the “good” is comparative. I think he meant the cheat who uses less moves to get the money is likely to be more skilled than one who needs to use a lot of moves to achieve the same thing. The move the good cheat uses is likely to be a more difficult move to execute by virtue of the fact that it would need to be to get most of the money in one hit.
As with most things, like a swimmer who makes a lot movement and splashes about might get from a to b but a good swimmer will take less strokes and move more elegantly through the water to get there and comparably he be a good swimmer. You would not say someone was wrong to say a good swimmer does not splash around and makes less movement than a bad one and argue that it was a myth because there are swimmers who get from a to b by splashing around, would you?

I am only winding you up, I know what you mean. but I still don't think he was wrong.
Message: Posted by: art the magic guy! (Nov 19, 2005 08:33AM)
Everyone talks on how the "gambling" demos and effects that magicians use will never fly on a card table. Or that real gambling sleight of hand is boring and what have you.

Well, that's exactly the point. MAGICIANS use the sleights to convey a single goal:ENTERTAIN. The methods, patter and presentation of these effects are done in a way as to maximize audience entertainment. It goes back to "magicians trying to impres magicians" example. Of course a seasoned card shark will laugh at the gambling tricks, but the performer isn't concerned to win a pot nor scam the whole table. The impression that he could do it is what hes usually after.

I recently saw an episode from the TV series "OVER THERE". Me being in Iraq for the 2x time, I know how its out here, and I laughed at the complete hollywood and misconceptions that were portayed in this episode, theres some things there that will never happen. But to the average viewer in the states this was probably a very entertaining show. And that exactly to whom the producers aimed it, to entertain the civilian population, not the military.

Now I do agree that a few gambling tricks in between regular magic is not very tasteful, but if you look at Mr Nash, Richard turner, Ortiz, Ackerman, ect. you can see that one is able to present gambling natured effects that entertain an audience, even if they are knowedgeable at cards.

What is the purpose of the act? That is the real question.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Nov 19, 2005 08:55AM)
You may want to login to http://www.cardshark.fm which is a forum devoted to gambling and cheating.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 19, 2005 09:09AM)
That's right art but sometimes we are talking about what will fly at the card table and we are not saying it will not fly for the magician. In other words were not trying to put the magicians moves down. It is just interesting to to talk about what might or not fly. But your dead right about what you say.
Message: Posted by: steve ehlers (Nov 19, 2005 09:24AM)
Hi Kid,

When I'm doing a show I have a whole section in which I do gambling material which includes false dealing, stacking, mucks, etc. However, I also include routines which have good stories and interesting premises. The bottom line when doing a show is to try to be the most entertaining you can be. A number of years ago I was fortunate enough to meet Ernie Bryan. Ernie was a student of Mickey MacDougal. Ernie did a lot of gambling material in his act. The majority of it was pseudo but he was really entertaining and not many people could tell the difference. Because he was such an entertaining guy the audience credited with much more skill than he actually possessed. I always work on improving my technical ability but trying to be more entertaining is more difficult and can only come working for people. If I have a choice between doing something technical or something easier but more entertaining I choose more entertaining.

Steve
Message: Posted by: mxray (Nov 19, 2005 10:24AM)
I posted in an earlier thread that I work for a casino party company dealing a shoe game ( 21) and that I do a few card tricks fourishes during shuffles for wextra tips.
I also do a 2nd deal. I don't do it slowly or in a way that they can see how it is done, so I am not teachng people how to cheat, but it fools them every time.

Contrary to some people's position that the public at large finds cheat moves boring, they are usualy quite entertained. That single demonstration alone really helps with tips.

Since Jason England has weighed in here, I will use his takedown show as another example that the public is definitely NOT bored by these moves.
Even my card counting friends, ( a fairly grizzled and difficult crowd to impress ) are interested in this stuff .

Mxray
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 19, 2005 01:37PM)
Tommy,

Being a "good" cheat isn't an exercise in efficiency. A guy who specializes in holding out may have to move more often than a guy who cold-decks the game. It doesn't mean he's a better or worse cheat. The holdout man may have targeted casino games, whereas someone kicking in a cooler is probably targeting a private game.

The point is, a cheat doing X vs a cheat doing Y is often an apples to oranges comparison. Therefore to claim that the one who uses the "least" number of moves is the better is nonsense. But, Vernon didn't say that. You did. Vernon said that cheaters do only one or two moves a night.

Since absolute statements like that about ANY topic are often wrong, he was wrong. Or at the least, misleading.

But my comment isn't really directed back into the past as an attack on Vernon. I concede that he perhaps knew he was generalizing. It's the dozens of people that I've seen parrot that statement as if it were infallible that I'm targeting.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 19, 2005 04:35PM)
Let me clarify somoething for Jason and Kid.

I wasn't quoting Vernon or I would have mentioned his name.

I was speaking from EXPERIENCE. I play Blackjack by counting cards, I play poker and simply play do NOT cheat. Ok my point is the cheats I do know and it is a LOT of them work in the manner in which I am speaking. It is simple mathmatics. If you get caught you get hurt. The less chance of getting caught the less chance of getting hurt. I know may guys who move too much and end up hurt bad!

I guess it is tough to explain but just knowing the position of one card in the deck gives you a HUGE advantage ofer the other players in that game.

I guess the only really long lasting cheats I know who do well regularly are the advantage players.

So I am not quoting Vernon and I am not wrong in the least. Maybe it is a function of the games you play. The stakes often dictate the way in which it can be taken down. Also the kind of people involved. I said I delt with a little less than friendly crowd who hated to be cheated and did something about it. A more understanding crowd maybe I would not be too scared to move. So I do agree with Jason it depends on the guy.

Let me clarify one more point. I personally do not believe Vernon EVER cheated at cards. I have no proof either way and don't really want to argue the point. He was a magician but in my mind NOT a cheat. I mean every cheat I know you would look at them and say "sucker". Advantage players every one of them, not the guys like Jason describes.

Point is really a "known" cheat is about as usefull as lips on a chicken.

Like the Bond films. He is supposed to be a "secret" agent and everyone knows who he is. Every bartender not only knows who he is, but what he drinks. Heck people refer to him as 007 for pity sake! The only guy who dosn't know him seems to be the bad guy!

A known cheat strikes me in the same silly manner.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 19, 2005 05:19PM)
I agree that it is more difficult to cheat in a casino, generally speaking, and I concede it is more likely that a cold deck man would be working a home a game, but it ain’t necessarily so. I have known someone switch a complete shoe in a casino.
All things being equal is it an exercise in inefficiency then. I think so.
When I am at the table I look to do as little as possible to get the money. Is that being efficient? If it is, I hold that cheating is an exercise in efficiency because I think it would be foolish to do more than necessary.

In realty someone who holds out cards in a casino, in a poker game at least, would not last a hand because they count the stub, a good cheat would know that. Vernon probably knew. :)
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 19, 2005 06:08PM)
I'm inclined to believe efficiency is based on the motives of the scam.

If you're goal is to take the big pots, one or two moves a night may be all that is necessary.

If you're goal is to chip away at everyone's stacks - more subtle, yet more often moves may be necessary.

Then again, maybe not. It's all to dependent on the events that take place, as Jason said it best here.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 19, 2005 08:26PM)
Jason has a point.

What a card shark does in a game I feel depends on the card shark and the game that they are playing. And who they are sitting in with.

I knew two different people that would only use the second deal in the game of spades.

From my understanding there are two ways that a card shark gets the money. That is to set the mark up for one or two hits - such as a cold deck. Hit the marks hard with the stack.

Or take them little by little over a long time like with the punch. Of course there are many ways to cheat but the card cheat may get the money in one or two hands or takes them over a long time (perhaps over several days) a little bit at a time.

It depends on who it is - what they know - how they cheat - the games they play - and who they play cards with!
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Nov 20, 2005 03:20AM)
Hi Tommy,

You have to admit that Jason's view is highly pragmatic. Even your account of someone switching out a whole shoe exemplifies the sheer number of ingenious cheating methods and combinations. When this is mixed in with the different personal temperaments of the cheats themselves, it is bound to produce enormous variety. I think it is also fair to say that there are many cutting edge cheating techniques and gimmicks that have yet to see the light of day and their application is bound to introduce further variation.

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 20, 2005 03:30AM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-18 23:40, Dannydoyle wrote:
Most gamblers themselvs are more advantage players than anything else.

Any good advantage player only makes one or two moves a night at most. He makes sure he has huge bets when he does them so it dosn't seem suspicious.
[/quote]

I was going to leave the first quote alone, but as long as I'm here...

Danny, most gamblers pull slot machine handles. The vast majority of the rest bet the horses or can be found in the sports book. A few million others play online poker and slowly trickle their money away while having a good time. Perhaps instead of "most gamblers" you meant "a tiny fraction of gamblers (are advantage players)," because otherwise I can't make heads or tails of that statement.

As to the second quote, you said "any good advantage player ONLY makes one or two moves a night at MOST" (emphasis mine).

To disprove this statement, whether you were basing it on your own experience or someone else's, I have to come up with but a single "good" cheater that makes several moves a night. Will Filipino Freddie do? He was a famous cheat in Gardena that is on videotape performing the same "hop" over and over and over and over. All night long he hops the cut and deals the cards. No one says a word. Presumably Freddie had done this on more than one occasion.

There you go, a "good" (i.e. "successful") cheat moving more than once or twice. Your experience is to be noted. Perhaps you have indeed been exposed to cheaters that moved infrequently. That doesn't make blanket statements about ALL good cheaters correct.

Do I need to cite more examples?

Without naming names, imagine a dealer in a blackjack game flashing the top card to a partner. Do you really believe that this happens "once or twice" in an evening? Perhaps you haven't been watching the same surveillance tapes I have. They'll do it for hours sometimes!

Chip cups are designed to be passed back and forth from cheater to dealer multiple times! Some of these scams go on for extended periods of time, back and forth. They've won thousands.

I'll say it again: you can't make absolute statements about a topic as varied as cheating. [i]Some[/i] cheats move once or twice, true enough. But others move constantly. To try and say that "the good ones" move less is to reveal your ignorance about the existence of the very successful cheats who move from the moment they sit down.

[quote] Tommy wrote:
In realty someone who holds out cards in a casino, in a poker game at least, would not last a hand because they count the stub, a good cheat would know that.[/quote]

That's strange. As I type I'm looking at a copy of an as-of-yet unreleased book on poker protection written by one of the best in the business. He devotes about 10 pages to the various methods by which a poker cheat could hold out in a modern casino. Many of these methods are devised to defeat the stub countdown, and at least one of the methods can fly even [i]during[/i] the stub countdown. That of course doesn't include the times when the dealer is colluding with the holdout man and mis-counts the stub on purpose. "Would not last a hand" huh? See the above comment on generalizations phrased as absolutes.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 20, 2005 09:27AM)
You must be wrong when Glen and Paul agree with you. :) Will Filipino Freddie do? Is that the best you can up with? He is caught on video, so cross him off the good list. And the blackjack dealers you seen cheating for hours on video can be crossed of the good list also.
The question ain't do card cheats move more than a few times a night but does "Any good" advantage player move more than that.
"Most gamblers" try reading it as, "any good advantage player" . (I think Danny also did not cross one of his Ts.) But I will not a make federal case out of it.
So you found a book that tells how to beat the stub in theory. Sounds like something Filipino Freddie might read to get himself on video again. I reserve judgment until it is published. As for colluding: Stop moving the goal posts, that's cheating. We are talking about how often a good advantage player moves. Not what a card cheat and his army could do and get away with. You would not need be any good if you had all the casino staff in your pocket.

Kid I told you knows nothing, lets see if he tells us how to beat the stub. I bet he don’t.. :)
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 20, 2005 10:23AM)
I bet he doesn't either. Buy the book. If it's the book I'm thinking it is, it's about 500 pages and written by THE man in gambling sleight of hand. Am I right?

"He" is THE authority when it comes to what works and what doesn't. Many magicians envy him and believe to have been duped when they witness his skills. They were not. He's the real deal.

While your cynisim is humorous, I see it as a bit inapropriate - if you're honetly inclined to believe what your are saying and not to arouse chuckles.

It is hard enough to make moves in fast company, it is quite another to do so under the conditions of a camera for reason obvious to everyone here. It is one thing to catch someone you're sitting at the table with. It is quite another to discredit somoeone's abilities simply for being caught on camera.

Having no credentials to back up your statements and convictions, I am left to believe you know little yourself. However Jason would be the first person on this board I would ask for answers to such questions - arse kissing aside.

I enjoy reading your insight on magic, but this is an area in which I disagree.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 20, 2005 10:39AM)
To be serious for a moment:
There is a dvd out soon Cheating at Holdem by Malek



I think he is Jasons pal so don't take it that seriously. :)
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Nov 20, 2005 11:15AM)
Kid,

the whole deal in cheating is not to get caught. It doesn't matter is you get caught on the table or by the eye of a camera. You got caught... period!

Bad cheats are getting caught. Good ones don't.

Good cheat -- a very rare species.
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 20, 2005 11:43AM)
Again, I don't think getting caught, by camera or otherwise, dictates a level of skill. A measurement of bad judgent? I'll give you that.

Your assumption that bad cheats are caught, and good ones aren't, is simply false.

Bad cheats get by all the time, good cheats get caught.

The real question, I guess, is how much does judgement play in the definintion of a good cheat? My guess is that it has a great deal to do with it.

However, a bad call on anyones part far from places you in a permanent category. Just because someone got a DWI once in their life far from qualifies them as a "prior/persistent offender." They made a bad call - it happens. What you learn afterwards is what matters most, it's only unfortunate (or is it) that the learning curve in both cheating and DWI's is harsh.

My apologies for pointing out the obvious, but since Yiannis has done so, I thought I would as well.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 20, 2005 12:01PM)
No kid a bad call on a cheats part does place him in a permanent category sometimes, the category is called dead.
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 20, 2005 12:30PM)
By your own admission, you are wrong.

Of course the outcome could dictate permanance. But if it doesn't, it isn't.

Tommy, I get the feeling you're putting me on with your comments...
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 20, 2005 12:53PM)
I am putting you on Kid and Jason. Just trying to get something out of him.

I have never been caught cheating that does not make me any good just careful.

I am serious about getting dead. I am entitled to my opinion and in my opinion there is a lot of sand in the desert.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 20, 2005 03:15PM)
OK Jason quit nit picking to show you have some alledged knowlege on the subject.

I did mis write so let me clear it up for everyone.

ACVANTAGE players, whis is my only real knowlege here move EXACTLY as I said.

How can you tell me my experience is wrong? Like in college when I got an F on a paper that asked my OPINION!!! for pity sake give it a rest.

Talk to Simon Lovell for some info.

My point is that I didn't start playing in a casino till the past few years. Heck it wasn't as readily available. So where I played it was a tough breed. I was too scared, even if I DID have the right skill set, which I don't, to even try to cheat. Concequently I became a quite good player period.

That being said I have seen many many guys hurt quite badly for moving for the money against the wrong crowd. For this reason it is better to move less often. If you only get barred from a casino that is one thing. If you get a 1 week hospital visit that is another thing entirely.

These are bigger money games than you usually find at casinos today. If you feel you are good enough to move under these circumstances then great for you. Moving as you and Glen suggest just dosn't fly in the circumstances in which I PERSONALLY find myself.

So forget lectures on history and casino cameras and crap like that. If you would like to experience my world it is easy to find. Then you can tell me I am right or wrong.


Oh and by the way a level of judgement Kid.....IS part of your skill as an advantage player or a guy who moves every hand from the second he sits down.

By the way I have NEVER met anyone who could get away with moving that much Glen. You have to pick your spots no matter which side of the debate you are on.

I figured as long as we were nit picking on speech patturns and such I would chime in.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 20, 2005 03:41PM)
Yes you tell him Danny. Cheating in them casino's is for wimps . :)
I would like to see how long Steve Forte and Filipino Freddie would last in my game if they tried a move every other hand. They would be lucky to get home with any fingers on their hands. And tell them I said so. :)
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 20, 2005 04:38PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-20 16:15, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh and by the way a level of judgement Kid.....IS part of your skill as an advantage player...[/quote]

Echo, echo, echo ! ! !
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 20, 2005 05:50PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-20 16:15, Dannydoyle wrote:
OK Jason quit nit picking to show you have some alleged knowledge on the subject.
[/quote]

Danny, Jason England is a great card man and knows about card shark methods as well as things like dice and odds and he knows his stuff. Tommy and Paul H also know their stuff to.

[quote]

My point is that I didn't start playing in a casino till the past few years. Heck it wasn't as readily available. So where I played it was a tough breed. I was too scared, even if I DID have the right skill set, which I don't, to even try to cheat. Consequently I became a quite good player period.

[/quote]
I have never played cards in a casino and I would never think about cheating in a casino. The reason is that here in America if you are caught cheating in a casino you will get a record for committing a felony.
[quote]

Moving as you and Glen suggest just doesn’t fly in the circumstances in which I PERSONALLY find myself.
[/quote]

No Danny I am not suggesting that anyone should use the card cheat skills to cheat at cards. In a friendly little game or in a casino. Cheating is wrong and people that cheat do so at their own risk!

[quote]

By the way I have NEVER met anyone who could get away with moving that much Glen. You have to pick your spots no matter which side of the debate you are on.
[/quote]
Danny I have met several card cheats over the years. One was a guy named Carl Jackson who was both a card shark and a pool shark. In fact when he was alive he paid for his house with the punch deal. The punch is a method of cheating where you get the money slow over an evenings time. He also was a very good bottom dealer.

I am not sure why you keep saying things like moving that much. Card cheats do not do moves every hand and cheat only when they think that they can get away with it. And how they cheat depends on who they play with. And what skill level at cards they have. I have also played cards for many years and played with people that could do some very good card work. Also before Casino’s were being built on the rivers of the USA my Dad used to deal blackjack - and I have been hired to deal at card games and hired to spot for cheaters a few times in my life as well.

Second - I do not like to debate or argue in forums. My posting in a forum is just to share information as I know it. And most of the time as I have lived it. If you want to debate/argue points. Find someone else to do it with.
Message: Posted by: Stilts (Nov 20, 2005 05:56PM)
I have really enjoyed reading the comments shared thus far and thought I would ramble a little myself...

I'm simply curious about the forum, and you guys' views on magicians doing "gambling" sleight of hand, or simpley gambling routines in general.

Comparing magicians gambling routines to real card cheating, IMHO is like comparing apples to oranges. While the "mechanics" in both groups share the same moves the psycology behind them is different. It has been stated many times on this board when these types of topics come up that cheating at the card table is not romantic, fun, or glorious. However, a magician looking to entertain his audience wants to show just that.

Take for example a gambling demonstration where the magician talks about how a hustler would use a bottom deal to win a game of poker. The four Kings are put on the bottom of the deck and the magician deals out five hands of poker. All four kings are found in the magicians hand. The magician offers to repeat the demonstration and asks the audience to watch closely to see if they could catch him. The magician deals out another five handed game. The magician asks if anyone saw him deal off the bottom as he rolls the hand at third base to show the kings were dealt to the "sucker", and are not in his hand. This would catch the specators off guard, and as a double whammy the magician rolls his hand to show the four aces.

Sorry for the long explanation, but I think it is important to note the difference here in gambling routines vs. cheating demo's. In the above routine the audience never sees the bottom deal eventhough the magician uses one. There is a great surprise as the magician reveals the "double duke" at the end where the magician is the hero, expert, etc. This routine is very entertaining for someone to watch and the spectators get to see how a bottom deal "could be" used in a game.

I assume that everyone would agree that the above routine would never fly at the card table as laid out. It is missing all of the little details such as: how does the cheat get the cards to the right location, how does he beat the cut, what happens if someone folds after the first round, how does he beat the heat winning back to back pots with blockbuster hands..etc. My point here is that an "authentic" gambling routine is not feasible for a magician to do in most acts. (please note the word most in the previous sentence). It doesn't mean he doesn't understand the how's and why's of a card cheat.

My other thought, (that should go without saying) is that magicians who do gambling demonstrations should know how to play poker, and at the least played in some poker games..

And I guess one more thought. If you'd like to see what some of the card cheats who post on this forum are talking about, try getting invited to card game where you don't know more than one other guy sitting at the table, play on the square, and watch and learn when the heat is on, when its not, when you'd make your move, and when you'd wait it out.

I'd love to hear others thoughts on the subject and sorry for the long rambling above.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 20, 2005 07:03PM)
Glen if you are SO adverse to a debate and discussion might I suggest you simply LECTURE instead of jumping in on a topic that is being debated and stating an opinion and taking a side in the debate.

Of course someone will take issue with it. Isn't that the point of the forum here? Arren't we SUPPOSED to debate and discuss and let others know what we know and learn and argue and hash things out to find some common ground and answers?

I am sorry if I misinturpreted the use of this forum.

I guess we should just go back and any time we disagree with people not say anything. Which brings us to your first post. If you didn't want to debate it why say anything? It was obviously a contested issue? How is it you feel your opinion is above "debate or argue"? It is rediculous to be able to write somethig and it is supposed to be simply uncontested because you don't want to debate or argue.

Last little thing is I have never been in a "friendly" game of poker in my life. Only for money and all friends and alliances, barring those used for cheating, go out the window.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Nov 20, 2005 10:06PM)
J I dunno why you even bother.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 21, 2005 12:01AM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-20 16:15, Dannydoyle wrote:
Talk to Simon Lovell for some info.
[/quote]

I don't know that so much has ever been communicated in so few words. Danny, you just told me all I need to know about you.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 21, 2005 12:42AM)
Also Sals DVD will improve your understanding of the subject matter.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 21, 2005 01:02AM)
Actually, Sal's DVDs are very good. I can do without Rob Stiff, but the actual card material is quite good.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 21, 2005 01:10AM)
“MR Scott was no doubt an aberration among card men…”
“For almost 25 years I have obsessively tried to stay on top of the entire arena of cheating and yet to run into any mechanic or crew that utilized this system (the punch) under fire...
“Where you’re the dealer with players sitting to your right and left literally sitting on top of the deck: these are tough conditions to say the least and even the very best mechanic had better really “pick his spots”. (Dealing Seconds)

-Steve Forte-

Which makes me wonder if we if we can cross of the gambling sleight list, second dealing and the punch in poker, well for all those who are not an aberration among card men. It seems at the very least we can cross of dealing seconds often.
I personally don’t know anyone that deals seconds at the poker table and I never have.

What say you?

Regards

Tommy
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 21, 2005 01:17AM)
Okay, since I'm more than likely the most ignorant in the thread on the subject...

Maybe I could bother you guys for some references to what you believe to be definitive card work?

Since I'm just breaking into the actual true gambling aspect, I have little information and less material. What I do have consists of Erdnase, Annotated Erdnase, Buckley's Card Control, and a myriad of Nash material. I have Unreal Work on the way, and I'm tracking down some copies of Fortes GPS series. As soon as Steves book becomes available, I amn definitely making that purchase.

I'm guessing Piacente would be another good source? Also, Octobers Genii reviewed Fernando Keops' DVD set, commenting that for those seeking actual card worki principles would be best suited with just volume 1.

Anyone care to share some insight and oipinon?

EDIT: I just read Tommy's last post, and I too, in my infinite cheating wisdom, find little feasible use of dealing seconds without an ally to your left.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Nov 21, 2005 07:04AM)
Tommy,

Walter Scott said it best : -"No matter how many things you can do at the card table, they're easy to see if you're looking for them".

In my opinion, the only false deal that creates a perfect illusion when pefrormed is Wesley James second deal (as described in his book 'Enchantments') and the Artanis bottom deal as performed by Dai Vernon (in the 'Revelations' series).
Message: Posted by: Andrei (Nov 21, 2005 07:38AM)
Tommy - "Doc" has said repeatedly that he deals punch.

Andrei
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Nov 21, 2005 10:56AM)
Andrei,

Doc also said, that false dealing is absolete to him anymore. "Cold deck" is what gets the money in one big hit.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 21, 2005 11:31AM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-20 20:03, Dannydoyle wrote:
Glen if you are SO adverse to a debate and discussion might I suggest you simply LECTURE instead of jumping in on a topic that is being debated and stating an opinion and taking a side in the debate.

[/quote]
Danny I thought the Café and other forums was to share information. Magicians helping magicians. This sharing of information is very useful. I have learned many things here in the Café from people like Tommy, Paul Chosse, Whit Hayden, Bill Palmer, Pete Biro, Paul H, Doc and others that are so many and in fact to many to list.

This is my personal point of view - I feel what is important is to share information I am tired of getting into little arguments over little points about who is right about something. Being right about something I feel isn't as important as the sharing because I feel no one is THE expert because we all have our point of view and different things work for each of us.

We are different and have different ways of getting the job done. That I feel is what makes magic so interesting.
Message: Posted by: Andrei (Nov 21, 2005 11:42AM)
Yiannis - yeah, and my point was that he said the punch was workable for him at one stage, which I assume was more than just a couple of games.

Andrei
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Nov 21, 2005 11:50AM)
Andrei,

indeed that was the case. He also mentioned that the weak angle of his type of second dealing was that from behind the dealer. I.e looking directly on top of the deck. Doc was using Walter Scott's method for the punch.
Message: Posted by: Andrei (Nov 21, 2005 11:55AM)
Yiannis - I regretfully say that I have not yet had a chance to get my hands on the Walter Scott book, so unfortunately I don't know how that particular second is accomplished or how it looks (slower, faster, etc).

Andrei
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 21, 2005 12:33PM)
Jason, I just figured out the problem and YOU stated it earlier. We are speaking of apples and oranges....as if they were apples and apples.

You are right and I step back and appologise.......SERIOUSLY.....


Glen this goes for you too if your still reading..(although NOT about the debate point I made)

I am speaking ONLY of advantage players. You guys are speaking of guys who make serious card moves regularly. Mechanics.

Two schools of thought.......both entirley correct for a given situation. Each better and worse in a given situation....

I have LITTLE TO NO experience with the mechanics, as in the places I play and at the stakes played it would get you hurt. I do understand this is situationally spacific to me and those crappy seedy back room games.

I still know that my position of a mechanic trying to crack the game would get him seriously hurt.

BUT to say it is a myth that advantage players tend to move slowly and once or twice an hour or night for big stakes is also wrong. Vernon aside it is the way they work. I never knew Vernon was a gambling expert till this thread to tell the truth, and am not sure he even was.

What I am trying to do is follow Glens lead here and take some heat out of the thread, by stopping one of its sourses......ME LOL. (take THAT Glen, I am following you!!)

So I am left with 2 points of what I believe are absolute fact. ( I could be wrong though)

1) the more money involved and the more attatched those people are to their money, the tougher it is to get by with ANY sort of cheating.

2) in games that are not sanctioned by the state, (back rooms of bars and pool halls) you can regularly find higher stakes than the standard 30 60 which casinos call high stakes. These games not sanctioned though there are NO cameras are pretty tough circumstances to get by with cheating. Not friendly home games but middle stakes games with rough company. I have never seen anyone get dead, but have seen many get hurt with half hearted mechanic moves.

I now have a serious question if Jason will indulge me...

The best mechanic I ever saw was actually self taught. He simply tried to duplicate the moves and make the cheating move look like the real move. Truley the goal of all moves I guess. Is this a usefull field of endevor, or does it take up too much time with the myriad of info in print.

With so much in print though you do have to sift through some coal to find diamonds. Tommy your input needless to say would be usefull here too!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 21, 2005 01:02PM)
If your starving you might risk it for a biscuit.

Posted: Nov 21, 2005 2:33pm
I think card cheating is swamped by myth Danny. I suggest you use your own experience and make a judgment based on that alone. My experience leads me to agree with you as it happens.

Note the words of the master:

“Self-styled "ex-professionals" have regaled the public with astounding disclosures of their former wiles and wickedness, and have proven a wonderful knowledge of the subject by exhuming some antiquated moss-covered ruses as well known as nursery rhymes, and even these extraordinary revelations are calmly dismissed with the assertion that this or that artifice is employed; in nowise attempting to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned. If terrific denunciation of erstwhile associates, and a diatribe on the awful consequences of gambling are a criterion of ability, these purified prodigals must have been very dangerous companions at the card table.”

-Erdnase-
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Nov 21, 2005 02:09PM)
Yes, and I think this site and indeed this thread is rife with the kind of things "Erdnase" was speaking about.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 21, 2005 02:28PM)
Or a Cheeseburger...lol
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Nov 21, 2005 02:38PM)
This thread is swamped by myth and BS.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 21, 2005 02:59PM)
How do you know?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 21, 2005 03:47PM)
Could you be more spacific about the myth and bs? I am curious.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 21, 2005 04:12PM)
The funny thing about magic and the card shark side of it is that magicians are known to tell myth if it helps their reputation. I have met a lot of magicians that say that they have advantage played in a game and by the way they hold the deck and other clues I often feel that they are giving me a line of bull.

Although I have met magicians that were very good with a deck and I feel that they could cheat in a game if they wanted to.

Take Jack Pyle for instance. He would lead his audience to believe that he could cheat in a game if he wanted to. I asked him at one time if he had ever advantage played and I could never get an answer out of him.

But there was a time that I wrote about in another thread after finishing a show with Jack Pyle - My Father - Billy Bishop and several bookers of shows and we all sat down and played some hands of draw poker. Please understand this was a safe game where everyone was close friends and the agents or bookers were people that booked my Dad and Jack Pyle for 15 years or more. One of the agents was Paul Marr who used to give the Bishop kids Christmas gifts every year. It was a close group.

Well my Dad thought it would be a good lesson to me if I were to sit in with them for a few hands and lose 20 bucks. So I sat in and the first hand I got was with Jack Pyle dealing and I got four Jacks. Then Jack folded and winked at me.

So I decided since there was so much clowning around to try out my second deal and then my center deal. Both flew past them. The center deal I did later on and I center dealt 3 of a kind to my Dad.

Later at the magic shop I asked my Dad if he liked my center deal. He said he did not see it and I told him I center dealt him three of a kind in that clown around poker game. He fell on the floor laughing and called Jack Pyle on the phone to tell him about his twenty two year old card shark son. Jack thought it was funny to because he was the one that showed me how to center deal.

By the way this was a SAFE GAME and I have played cards but never done something like this in anything but a safe game.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Nov 21, 2005 05:14PM)
You guys are only doing a disservice to yourselves with this "the best mechanic I know" nonsense.

Posted: Nov 21, 2005 6:15pm
Quote:
On 2005-11-20 16:41, tommy wrote:
Yes you tell him Danny. Cheating in them casino's is for wimps .
I would like to see how long Steve Forte and Filipino Freddie would last in my game if they tried a move every other hand. They would be lucky to get home with any fingers on their hands. And tell them I said so.

Oh please.
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Nov 21, 2005 05:26PM)
Why spend all this time talking when you could be cheating? Think of the money you're losing...

Best,PSC
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 21, 2005 05:40PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-20 13:53, tommy wrote:
I am putting you on Kid and Jason. Just trying to get something out of him.


Tommy
[/quote]

Try to keep your eyes open Z , I appreciate it is tiresome.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Nov 22, 2005 06:10AM)
Glen,

this is the ideal environment for a cheat. Make the other players feel safe and never to be suspected.

As it goes, if you don't watch out for it you won't see it coming.
Message: Posted by: Starry (Nov 22, 2005 08:55AM)
When I was in college, I had a group of magician friends who would play what we called "cheater's poker." In it we would all knowingly cheat in whatever game the dealer called. The rule was that if you caught someone cheating they had to fold their hand and turn in any extra cards. The person declaring the cheat had to say exactly how the other person cheated and the cheater had to admit it when the person who caught them was correct. So basically we had some honest cheating going on.

It was a blast. The funny thing was that more often than not, the cheaters succeeded. The only real problem with the game was that too many cards were often missing from the deck to deal a hand and everyone had to turn in their held back cards. Of course after a while it became obvious that someone had brought their own extras when two people held the same cards.

You should try it sometime. You'll be surprised what you can get away with even when playing against magicians.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 22, 2005 09:21AM)
Mr.Z you seem unwilling to elaborate here. Please share.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 22, 2005 11:24AM)
If an assertion is made that this or that artifice is employed at the table let the asserter make an attempt to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned. If not these astounding disclosures and extraordinary revelations can be calmly dismissed.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 22, 2005 12:04PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-20 16:41, tommy wrote:
Yes you tell him Danny. Cheating in them casino's is for wimps . :)
I would like to see how long Steve Forte and Filipino Freddie would last in my game if they tried a move every other hand. They would be lucky to get home with any fingers on their hands. And tell them I said so. :)
[/quote]
I remember you telling me in another thread that you were gonna get tables with automatic dealers... I thought you were dellusional then, but after reading your recent posts, I think its been confirmed....lol don't forget to take your pills...
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 22, 2005 12:24PM)
Danny,

A few things need to be straightened out here.

First of all, the concept of an ‘advantage player’ has evolved over the past 140+ years.

In 1865, a book was published anonymously called [i][b]How Gamblers Win or Secrets of Advantage Play[/i][/b]. In this book, the terms ‘advantage play’ and ‘advantage player’ were synonymous with cheating and cheaters.

In 1902, Erdnase utilized this same meaning of the term ‘advantage play.’ It was still synonymous with cheating and cheaters.

But somewhere in the past 100 years or so the term has evolved. These days there is a distinction between an advantage player and a cheater.

Under the commonly accepted modern definition, a cheater is someone who has broken a law, rule or standard of the game in an attempt to derive an edge.

An advantage player is someone who is attempting to derive an edge without breaking a law, rule or standard of the game.

For instance, switching cards, stacking the deck, dealing any card other than the top card, using marked cards, and peeking would all be considered ‘cheating’ by any reasonable definition of the word in most locales.

But card counting, shuffle-tracking, playing dealer tells, and playing naturally occurring warps in the game of blackjack are all considered ‘advantage playing’ in today’s parlance. There is no cheating going on, because you aren’t manipulating any of the items or information available to the players, you’re just paying attention to it better than anyone else.

In the game of roulette, adding to your bet after the ball has dropped would be considered cheating. But locating and betting into a wheel with a noticable bias would be considered advantage play.

In the world of slot machines, stringing a machine (using a coin on a string), trying to drill into a machine manipulate the reels on older machines, or attempting to bypass the coin counting mechanisms would all be considered cheating. But taking a team of players, locking up a bank of progressive machines and playing with a memorized perfect strategy for that particular machine type until the jackpot was won would be considered advantage play. There is no actual law or rule being broken (though the casino may not like it).

Though there can be exceptions to this guideline, the difference often comes down to manipulating items or information vs simply paying attention to the items or information.

So, it will obviously be useful to know what you mean when you say the advantage players you know only “move” once or twice in an evening. Are you using the old definition of the term (cheater) or the modern definition of the term (non-cheater)?

If you’re using the modern definition, then I’d say that most advantage players don’t “move” at all! Most of the time, their gains come from exploiting information, not from manipulating it. Again, I concede there can be some exceptions.

But if you’re using the older definition of the term, then we’re talking about the same types of people i.e. cheaters. These are the guys that (in a poker game) would be running up cards for themselves or a partner, bottom dealing cards to themselves or a partner, peeking or flashing, or using marked cards (whether pre-marked or marked during play). I would of course also place collusion, cold-decking, dealing known hole-cards, top-hand, the double-discard, and classic moves like the brush and the spread squarely in the ‘cheating’ category.

And as I’ve said before, modern cheaters can’t be pigeonholed into simple categories. Some of them are masters of several different cheating moves, some specialize in only one. Some of them are capable of beating you on the square if the opportunity presents itself, some are not. Some of them move once or twice in an evening, some start moving from the minute they sit down. Some are rough and use techniques that would make you cringe, and others (a very few) are so smooth you could burn them all day and not catch a thing.

It is dangerous (read: ususally wrong) to try and make absolute statements like: “Good cheaters only move once or twice an evening” on a subject as vast and varied as modern cheating.

What definition of the term are you using?

Point two: You made a statement earlier that needs some clarification. You said that you felt it was “absolute fact” that the more money and more attached people were to it, the more difficult it was to get by with any cheating.

My take on that is that it’s an absolute “rule of thumb.” Maybe you and I have differing opinions on the utility of precision in writing and speaking. I try and limit exaggeration and fuzzy statements, unless it’s clear (or I make it clear) that I’m generalizing. If I make a statement that has exceptions, I usually try and point out those exceptions, or at least make it clear that there are/can be exceptions.

The truth is, while more money often means more experienced players (and therefore more difficult to cheat), that isn’t always the case. There are plenty of guys who play big money poker in the world, that could still be taken by a mechanic that is only halfway decent. By the same token, I don’t play big money poker (I’ve seen maybe $200 – 400 pots), but my experience with a wide variety of cheating moves means you’re not likely to beat me with a sledgehammer move like the bottom deal or a muck. Of course, I remain susceptible to any number of more subtle moves, and would not be immune to a top-notch mechanic if he picked his spots properly.

So, my take on it is experience and knowledge (at any level) is your best bet against being cheated. Even then it isn’t a guarantee. But big money, in and of itself, doesn’t mean you have a game that isn’t capable of falling victim to a good cheat.

You also asked whether or not being a self-taught mechanic is a good way to go. My answer is that it probably doesn’t matter much how you arrive at competence, as long as you get there. Sure, you may advance a little faster by watching others, or by reading books, but you may not be any better at it in the long run. There’s really no way to tell without being given specifics. For things like bottom dealing, second dealing, mucks, and false-shuffles, I definitely think you can speed up the process by reading and watching others. But for things like peek work, marking cards during play, and running up hands, there isn’t a whole heck of a lot of literature to study in the first place. What little there is often contains only bare-bones descriptions. My guess is that the best mechanics have read and studied, but it isn’t necessary to read and study to become one of the best mechanics. It’s useful but not required.

Tommy,

I believe that Steve mentions that he’s only seen/heard of the punch being dealt for information in poker. That is a more subtle use of the concept than a punch/second deal combo. My guess is that there are plenty of softer games where cheaters have used the punch/second, but those guys probably aren’t reporting their progress to guys like Steve. Incidentally, if you put cohorts on either side of you, you distance the other players (who aren’t in on it) from the top of the deck, and disrupt their sight-lines. This would have the effect of making the deuces much easier to pull off. If the punch/second was the tool you made me use, this is how I’d use it.

Hope this helps guys.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Nov 22, 2005 12:49PM)
Wow!
Message: Posted by: halcon (Nov 22, 2005 12:51PM)
I agree with Jason on this.

Danny let me share a story with you. I was working a shoot with some NHL players. these are people that have some big money. I walked to the backroom where they were holding out waiting for their turn on the set. what lay before me was a full blown game in progress. not only were they playing thousand dollar or more hands they were also recounting their flight over from the East Coast. One player had lost 20 large in a single hand. I continued to watch for a while and swear that between the four players they must have played about 10 grand worth in the course of 15 minutes. this game was so soft you could have cold decked them with a different colored deck and they wouldn't have noticed.

when it comes to money it's all relative. five thousand dollars may be a lot of money to us but to people with a lot of money it may be meaningless.

halcon
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 22, 2005 12:59PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-22 07:10, Yiannis wrote:
Glen,

this is the ideal environment for a cheat. Make the other players feel safe and never to be suspected.

As it goes, if you don't watch out for it you won't see it coming.
[/quote]

I agree with that.

I would just like to add a few things that I have learned from a friend of the family that in this person's opinion that some cheats work in teams. The reason is that one guy will cull the hand and the other will stack the hand or bottom deal the hand.

Then perhaps use the crimp to blow past the cut.

Also another school of thought to this is that the right card dealt at the right time can make a card shark a thousand dollars just as a wrong card dealt to someone else at the right time can save them a thousand dollars.

Another point of view about cheating at cards. Sometimes it is GETTING the hand. But it could also be making sure that OTHERS in the game DO NOT get the hand!

Just some thoughts... And a use for the peak and the second or bottom.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 22, 2005 01:07PM)
Jason, thank you. and let me say YOUR RIGHT. My percision in writing may (read as IS NOT) not be what it should be!!!!

Thank you for your civil acceptance of this faililng. I will work harder to employ more direct language in the future.

Thank you also for your honest and complete answers. They are what I was looking for.

Let me explain. I personally count cards in Blackjack. You are correct that makes ME an advantage player! not a cheat.

When I speak of advantage players I did mean cheats I guess. BUT more cheats who move less for bigger pots I guess. I am sorry if I am being less than concise here. People who took shots at bigger pots as opposed to grinding away a small bit at a time. Less work meant less chance of exposure.

I hope I have cleared up some of the problem sentences I used! LOL.

Incidently I don't think it is the level of money used that stops the cheating. It is the fact that the guys losing it are quite willing to hurt you badly if your caught. I have been in many big money games that were quite soft. They involved people who were gambling lots of money, BUT within their means.

The only exposure I have to "cold decking" (which my understanding is ringing in a set deck in the middle of the night for one big hit) is as follows.

When the deck was intorduced nobody saw it. Heck I was able to reconstruct the moment and realised I was WATCHING and didn't even see it. I just had knowlege of who had done it and backtracked. Kind of like people who saw the 6th sense and had heard about the end and said "yea I saw it comming anyway". That was me reconstructing when this happened. IN THE MOMENT it passed right by me and everyone else at the table.

Problem was that several of the cards had been game worn. By this I mean smudges, or small lines on them, marks to tell the cards. Usually when the deck gets too many of these we simply switch them for a new one. Well when the wear marks were gone and suddenly he has a huge hand it was a pretty simple matter to find out who did it. A first year detective school student could piece it together. A simple search followed by a heck of a beating. it was scary.

That is what I believe keeps the game a little safer actually. I could be WAY wrong here mind you.

Your right for sure. Using absolutes is generally wrong in anything except gravity and such!

Thanks for your time.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 22, 2005 01:35PM)
Danny,

What count do you use?

I’ve been interested in blackjack and blackjack counting systems for some years now.

I’d also be curious to know what strategy indexes you recommend, and how many you use. Do you use Schlesinger’s “Illustrious 18” or something similar?

Also, are you a single deck kinda guy, or do you target multiple decks? (If you’re from the East Coast, I would think you target multiple decks, but I can’t be certain.) If so, what are you spreading?

Finally, do you have any favorite books on the game?

Jason

Posted: Nov 22, 2005 7:51pm
Quote:
On 2005-11-22 14:07, Dannydoyle wrote:
Let me explain. I personally count cards in Blackjack. You are correct that makes ME an advantage player! not a cheat.

Just one more point of clarification on my part.

Some people differentiate between advantage players and card counters. I don't really see any reason to do this. Most advantage players are exploiting mathematical or physical properties of the games they're targeting. So are card counters. They're exploiting the mathematical properties deck composition at any given moment.

I believe Forte makes this differentiation in his book Casino Game Protection. My take on this is that card counters are a specialized sub-set of the great body of advantage players, but some may disagree with that definition/grouping. It may be a semantic argument at that point though, since everyone seems to agree that neither card counters or advantage players are breaking the law or rules. Just exploiting loopholes and procedures.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 22, 2005 07:44PM)
Two crew either side for second dealing:

Reasonable. With a crew most things are reasonably feasible at a typical poker game.
By typical poker game I mean a typical casino style private game. The sort that I am familiar with, were it is worth the risk of cheating.
Kitchen table games are not typically worth the risk of cheating.
In an actual casino poker game, I don’t think I would be keen on it, because of the eye.

All cheating in a typical poker game has been perpetrated by a crew in my experience. The lone cheats in the poker games that I refer to above are yet to be experienced by me. I can imagine ways a loner could move, such as marking cards in play but for a loner to hold out and the like is tooooo risky for all but members of the wild bunch. Whose members number many, if one can believe the chronicles.

The only lone cheating, I have known, have been in other sorts of games.

There is some confusion about Advantage play and cheating. In my book an Advantage Player is someone who Cheats to gain an Advantage. I blame the casinos for the confusion as they have classed some fair strategies as cheating. It is the casinos who are wrong. Them who have the money make the rules, so you could say they are right but it’s one of many of their rules I don’t mind breaking if it's safe-ish.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 23, 2005 03:37AM)
It's just my opinion, after reading this here thread that Jason is absolutely right in his explanation about the amount of times a cheat will actually do a move in a game.

I would like to elaborate on this statement that the Kid said which is true...

Your assumption that bad cheats are caught, and good ones aren't, is simply false.
Bad cheats get by all the time, good cheats get caught.

Question...Why is it that good cheats get caught?

1. Because we are not perfect each and everytime and when we are not that's when we get caught.

2. Us CHEATS get good only by our trials and errors while learning from past experiences. In other words we learn from our mistakes like everyone else does and with much practice we improve in time just like I'm presently doing.

3. The only reason I come to this here site is to learn from ya'll so that I can minimize my mistakes as much as possible. And I do have to admit that ya'll are some very hard teachers even though most of ya'll most of the time don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Your Friend

Doc
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 23, 2005 09:54AM)
I am not sure what it’s like in the USA, it’s much a bigger place than England: If I got caught in a typical poker game (the sort that I run , a private casino style poker game) within a day, all the poker players in England would be talking about. You would not be able to live it down here.
I knew this old guy for example who did something petty. He was a professional gambler, he is dead now, just died of old age and nothing sinister. Anyway he got to a final table in a poker competition, before the finale started, on the break, he must have had a rush blood to the head and he stole a few chips from someone else’s stack and put them on his stack and got caught on video. Now within a day, every poker player was talking about it, and to hear some of them talk, you would think he had killed the King. They ribbed him about until he died and they still mention it now and he must be dead 5 years or more.
Frankly it is beyond my understanding how a cheat can be caught and not be made redundant. I can only think that the poker community is far larger than the small world it is here in England.
Thinking about it and to be fair I don’t think many would hear about someone being caught cheating in an home game some place here. So let me put this way: In big money poker, you will become known to all poker players, especially if you are a constant winner, and if your caught cheating all the poker players will know about.

Anyway Merry Christmas Doc it’s great to hear from you.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: halcon (Nov 23, 2005 10:26AM)
DOC good to see you're still around. hope you can hang out more often.

halcon
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Nov 23, 2005 10:38AM)
Tommy,

I don't understand the difference "private casino type games" that you run and the "home games" you mention. Where do you play these games? Are these organized and advertised games held in public?

There are tons of home games played in America. I would classify them as either the smaller dealers choice games with different antes and also "casino type" games where people buy in and play hold em, for example. If you are playing in someones house for money, in an illegal game I would call that a private game.

Someone could win HUGE sums of money in all sorts of private games and not become "become known to all poker players". That would never happen if a person didn't want it to happen. A person could certainly retain aninomity and take down all sorts of private games for sums of money both large and small. A person could also be busted in a private game and move on to another game and carry on. There are just too many games and too many people playing poker to even make a ripple in the "poker world". Someone who wanted to make a lot of money cheating at cards is not likely to play in the same game over and over again. They find a game, work it for a while, maybe go for a big score and then burn the game. And go find another one.

I understand in the old days it took a lot more work to find games. Nowadays people advertise games in chat rooms for petes sake. They may even invite an complete stranger into their homes for a $500 buy in hold em game.

The guy you mentioned (who copped the chips) was a professional (and apparently,known) gambler. Caught on videotape. People generally don't have videotape running on their home games, so this sounds like a whole different situation to me.

Bottom line, there are people that work ALONE, playing in home games that could takedown the whole game, even be accused of cheating and they will find another game. I'm sure if I played a game here in Milwaukee and decided to cheat and either won so big that they would never play with me again OR was accused of cheating. I wouldn't be afraid to play in a game a month later in Madison. Or Rhinelander, or Oshkosh, or Kenosha or any number of the thousands of towns in this state alone. Word dosen't travel like that in these private games. I'd be surprised if it does even in England.

Also, for all the talk about "moving" and how everyone knows so much about what to watch for, I'ts not even an issue for someone who wants to make some cash in a private game. These games are so cozy that you could do just about anything that is needed with the upmost ease. I have played in MANY games where people set out side tables for people to use for their ashtrays and drinks. Hands leave the table constantly. You wouldn't need any special skills to get all sorts of money. If one were so inclined. Yes, there are many games where things are tighter and rules are more carefully observed. But you don't even have to play in those if you don't want to.

The point is, England may be different. But in the USA the number of games, players and dollars bet is so large that there will always be another game and another group of piegons to play cards with.

Vandy
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Nov 23, 2005 10:47AM)
Doc,

long time no see!! The assumption was made by me and I'm with Tommy on this one. Perhaps it has to do with geography and the way private or casino games operate in the two different continents. A professional player's carreer is over if he/she get caught cheating. Even if you get away without any physical damage or legal charges, you won't be able to get into any serious game around. I'm sure you'll be able to find a game here and there, but bad news travel very fast and they tend to stick with you forever.

I remember some time ago, that you've shared with us a story where you got caught dealing seconds. You said you were very lucky because the person was a friend of yours and the game was soft enough to continu (and you continued to deal seconds under his nose :)). That's the only environment I can think of, where a good cheat gets caught, avoids damage and improves by learning from his mistakes.

It's good to see you back professor :) Merry Christmas
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 23, 2005 03:51PM)
Vandy

The game is an illegal club game, in that money is charged per hour per seat. It is in essence, a casino game, with croupiers dealing. Higher stakes than a typical casino cash game here. I know for a fact that such games are all over the USA also. Not so much as in the past you will find small games here in pool halls and homes etc. They have mainly dried up due to the casino comps which cater for all pocket sizes but most are cheap, maybe £20 to enter and the players get knocked out and some then play a small cash game after in the casino. This was not so years ago you needed a bank roll to get a game. So any way now most of these smaller games have moved to the casinos, and what is left is penny ante games in houses etc there are exceptions but I give a general picture.
Generally speaking although you find big games in casinos the higher rollers play in games like mine. So where are the cheats going? They don't cheat in casino's unless by collusion it's too risky and if caught cheating there, they can't get back into a casino, anywhere in the world maybe, They don't want to cheat for pennies and cheating in games like mine is maybe even harder because the company is faster. So there are few cheats left and the only cheating that goes on is when a crew get a rich sucker into a private game and sheer him like a sheep.
I don't know how it is USA as I said but such is life here today.

If a stranger shows his face, I would ask the boys who is he, how does he play etc and someone will say “Oh that’s Luton Lenny, he cleaned up last week at Milwaukee Vandy’s game, up north, he plays very loose.” In poker this place is a village, do you understand what I mean.

I don't know what the world is coming to, an honest cheat can't earn a living! :)
Message: Posted by: halcon (Nov 23, 2005 04:10PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-23 16:51, tommy wrote:
I don't know what the world is coming to, an honest cheat can't earn a living! :)
[/quote]

I love that quote!

Halcon
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 23, 2005 04:23PM)
Just a few thoughts I call Casino cheating or any cheating or advantage playing done in a casino as casino corporate cheating.

If it is done in a home poker game I most often call them the home games.

I have only played cards in a home game and I have never played cards in a casino. I have found the info from Jason England posted above very interesting and great posting. Tommy and Vandy also gave some good stuff to. I think that the rules of the game are the same no matter where they are played world wide.

But there are differences in the style of the rooms - how many dealers and other little things that make the casino's different just because of the way the casino corporation sets up the casino and the way they make their company rules.

Nice to see you again DOC - enjoyed your post that is above as I enjoyed everyone's posting in this thread.
Message: Posted by: mxray (Nov 23, 2005 07:17PM)
On 2005-11-22 14:35, JasonEngland wrote:
"I’ve been interested in blackjack and blackjack counting systems for some years now. "
Jason, I'm not Danny. I've mostly quiet on this thread, but now you've touched on an area where I have wondered something for a while, and I cannot pass up this chance to ask you about it.

I count . Like most, I started with Hi Lo. I later switched to Balanced Zen. Then, when I got heavily into shuffle tracking, I switched back to Hi Lo, because I wanted something more simple, as my brain already had all it could handle at the time with tracking. Tracking has worked well for me. I almost won't sit down at a shoe game that isn't trackable. I think the Bishop should be awarded sainthood!

I have always believed that traditional play-all counting is sort of an "IF..then..else.." kind of thing, with a little bit of math thrown in. Whereas tracking is more about visualization and understanding the inctricacies of shuffles and understanding where cards end up more.

So my question is this: Why don't a lot of magicians and card manipulators shuffle track? Other than yourself, ( I am presuming here) I have never met one. It seems to me that anyone who can do a pass through false shuffle (hope I am calling it by its right name) could very easily understand 1/2 deck grabs, segmenting,the non-randomness of shuffles, etc, and therefore could easily map out a house shuffle, provided it was trackable.

I am certainly no rocket scientist, but tracking has worked for me, and there are many guys on these pages much more adept at card control, controlled shuffles, and understanding in detail how cards fall in shuffle routines more than I will ever be able to..

In your opinionm why don't these guys track? I would think it would almost be child's play for them.
MXRay
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 23, 2005 09:50PM)
MXRay,

I would guess that the reason magicians don't attempt to shuffle-track is the same reason that most blackjack players don't attempt to do so. It takes work.

As you said, it isn't rocket science, and almost anyone with normal mental abilities can learn to count, to map a shuffle, and then to learn which segments get shuffled into one another with any particular shuffle, but all of that takes effort.

Seeing as how most blackjack players don't even bother to properly memorize a complete basic strategy table, this lack of effort isn't surprising.

Keep in mind that to a lot of people, the progression from playing their whims, to learning a good basic strategy, to counting, to shuffle tracking, is too much like making blackjack a job. Since most players play only once or twice a year, and for negligible amounts of money, it just isn't worth their time investment.

Jason

Posted: Nov 23, 2005 10:57pm
Tommy,

We probably have more poker players than you have people. That makes it a little easier for a cheat to find a game in another town after being caught.

Incidentally, the number of 'name' poker players that have some cheating (if only collusion) in their backgrounds is larger than you might think.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 24, 2005 12:43AM)
Hi Jason

Yeh but our boys still give the yanks a good fight when go over for the poker. Talking about fights when are they going to find someone who can box?
The undisputed heavyweight boxing champ from our little country must be getting tired of waiting.

The number could be smaller than I think but not larger. They are all at it, if you ask me.

:)

Tommy

Q Z
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 24, 2005 08:49PM)
I didn't think it fair to hijack the thread and talk Blackjack so I sent Jason an detained PM about the count.

In short I use a basic hi low count with NO side count of anything aces or 5s. If you play blackjack you know what I mean.

As far as shuffle tracking goes I don't do it. I play "primarily" 6 deck games in which a card shuffeler is employed, so it is all but useless to try. I attack a shoe for several reasons which I explained to Jason, PM me if interested.

Tracking is a LOT of work. A LOT of work. Simply put it is easier to count than track.

Counting is tough work. It requires concentration from the second you sit. If your count is off, your betting with the wrong advantage and losing money plain and simple. Counting is work so that is why most don't do it either.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 25, 2005 01:34AM)
Hey Tommy, Yiannis and any one else it seems as though we play differently than ya'll do over here in America so neither of us are wrong it's just different cultures and styles. For the record I mostly play in laxed house games and hole in the wall joints.

Everyone may God Bless You and have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Doc
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 25, 2005 07:17AM)
Doc

I agree . It’s easy to forget when we are all talking about cheating that cheating is more than one subject, from game to game and place to place things are different. Even one casino poker game in one casino can be a different subject in another but on the face of it they can look similar. What will fly all depends on …well Steve Forte says it all when talking generally about the difference between casino and private cheating:

“David Malek: Are you saying that cheating in the casino, and cheating in the private world of gambling are two completely different subjects?

Steve Forte: Yes. Many see the casino cheater in a classical sense, an expert mechanic capable of amazing technical skill. Yet the truth is, in the majority of the most successful casino scams in our history, technical skill plays a minor role. It's all about the application.
Whereas a magician might be familiar with different false shuffles for controlling a slug, he may not know how such elementary technique has been used to scam millions. And, he may not realize that the most successful scams are not as spectacular as many think, that most involved massive conspiracies and inside collusion, that many employed the most blatant techniques imaginable, and so on.

You might think that a false shuffle is a false shuffle, no matter where the scam takes place. But although there will always be similar technical aspects, once you get past the move, there's nothing remotely close about some Gin Rummy player getting cheated in a small town gin mill, and a professional crew 'going for the money' in a billion dollar casino with ten cameras on the game.
The opponent, mechanics, psychology, surroundings, and the consequences of getting caught are all different. When the two worlds mesh, confusion is inevitable.”

http://www.elmagicshop.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/Steve_Forte_Interview.html

Which is why I said to Danny base what you think will fly on your own experience alone. For example if I said this move will not fly at the table, I would be wrong, because it all depends…. “You might think that a false shuffle is a false shuffle, no matter where the scam takes place.” That is a great line to remember.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Nov 26, 2005 10:39AM)
Tommy,

Thanks for the description of the situation that work in over there. I do believe you are correct, those types of games do exist over here. But as Doc says "laxed house games and hole in the wall joints" are practically ubiquitous over here, if you know where to look. Espicially in these poker crazy days. But as I've heard Doc mention, poker is not the only game in town. I know he plays Tonk and Lowball and people even play Sheepshead and Cribbage for fair amounts of money.

And as I've said, there is a whole bunch of money available to the person who has a mind to take it. I have played poker with complete strangers (not for huge money, but for decent money) in games so lax that I swear to God I could crawl under the table if I wanted to.

It does sound as if the gambling arena is something of a "village" over there. that's a shame. America, and even certain states and cities are so vast that I know a dilligent person can find new games and players all the time. At some point their reputation may precede them, but that is completely avoidable if one wants to avoid it.

Vandy
Message: Posted by: Craig Krisulevicz (Nov 26, 2005 04:36PM)
So...who's up for a game?
Message: Posted by: winstonwolf (Nov 27, 2005 09:40AM)
Jason, I noted your unfavourable comments about Simon Lovell. Care to expand your opinion in more detail?

I'm honestly not trying to start an argument, I'm just interested in your opinion. I'm neutral on Simon, I've only ever seen his magic stuff but I know he has some cheating videos out there.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 27, 2005 11:00AM)
As far as card shark methods I feel that the student (Like myself) should keep things in perspective. One of the questions is that if a magician that knows this kind of manipulation could or would go into a card game, cheat and not get caught.

That leads to the question if many of the past masters like, Charlie Miller, Jack Pyle, Dai Vernon, John Scarne and others. Ever cheated for money.

My thoughts on this subject is that when learning and reading about these legends in magic and what they wrote about we should keep things in perspective.

Because from my own personal point of view magic is foremost an entertainment. That is that I learn these things to use at shows. I learn magic to entertain an audience. My interest in card shark magic was because of an interest that later led to me being able to use it to book more shows as an authority on the subject in the eyes of a lay audience. And that of course is a point I want to make.

When talking about and reading about magic and magicians one must remember that magicians use myth and story to look bigger than life. Part of that bigger than life is the promo that they print. This of course is used to book shows that can range from TV appearances to writing books and now doing DVD's.

One of the most interesting story around a magician is the story of John Scarne and his way of cutting to the aces. That he did in front of several name casino people. But when asked to cut the aces and do it for a magicians group or by magicians. He never did it. I often wonder why?

From the point of view of the lay audience I feel that if the audience THINKS that the magician has high skill then the magician can get away with doing a lot of easy stuff in his act mixed with some skill. Then the audience will think that all the magic in the program is of high skill.

Okito talks about this in his book Okito on magic when he writes about Malini.

My point of view on all this is that I feel that there are a lot of magicians out there that do card shark stuff in their act and say that they have cheated in a game or sessioned with cheaters but have never really played the game. I find that sort of interesting because part of magic is the myth and the promo that we come up with to book shows, and sell products to magicians.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 27, 2005 07:16PM)
I don't know Simon (we've met once I think), so my comment wasn't directed at him as a person. Nor as a magician.

I simply don't think he's gambling expert. Oh, if you want to know a little about the push-off second deal he can certainly fill you in. But he isn't what I would consider an expert on modern cheating.

Incidentally, I liked [i][b]Billion Dollar Bunco[/i][/b], though I think the format is flawed (give me a break with the whole "Freddy" thing). But I found a few fun things and I admit I learned a few things about some of the bar bets.

But if Simon is your "go to" guy for up to date, modern cheating information, I think you may be in for a surprise when what you know (or think you know) is turned upside down.

Jason
Message: Posted by: mook (Nov 28, 2005 12:43AM)
How ironic you should say such a thing about Simon, Jason...

It's funny- the different perceptions on card cheating. From my own personal knowledge, I can tell you that Doc is the real deal, which I believe most of you know already. From what I can tell from Tommy's posts, he knows what he's talking about too.

I have dealt casino poker in A.C. I always followed procedures, but had no idea how much cheating could happen, despite this. After attending a Game Protection Seminar by Sal Piacente, my eyes were opened. I noticed crossfiring (communication) among regular players, who were showing each other their hands. As time went on, I couldn't believe the things that I saw. I never said a word to the bosses. I was concerned about what would happen to me if I did. I did, however, look deliberately at the cheats to let them know that I saw what they were doing and to knock it off. Recently, I learned that poker was once called "the cheating game." How appropriate!

Through the years I learned that with some cheats, the amount of moves per night depended on many circumstances, like "is there any heat (suspicion)," "how much money is involved," "did the mark (sucker) show," etc. On Sal's new poker dvd, he has a career cheat who has never been caught. He gives up his moves, but doesn't show his face. From what I hear, this guy has just a few moves that have made him a ton of money and the moves are great.

Sal said that pro-cheaters don't always have the best moves, but all that's required is the guts to do it. Many people have the talent/moves, but not the gonads to pull it off, some vice versa. For exmaple, Filipino Freddie- I've seen video of him "false shuffling" (for lack of a better term), where he breaks the deck in 2, but when he goes to riffle, the 2 halves never even touch. In this case, no talent, large guts.

A lot of money is played in both casino and private poker games. Rich people like to gamble too. There are games at country clubs, among businessmen, celebrities, professional athletes, etc. And you can bet, cheating happens in many of them. It would be hard to disprove me as many cheaters aren't likely to announce what they do.
Message: Posted by: Shawn74 (Nov 28, 2005 12:14PM)
Bishthemagish,

Don't know how reliable this info is, or it may just be magician folklore. But I remember reading or hearing somewhere that The Profesor, Larry Jennings, Charlie Miller and that whole crew of cardmen of that period would play cards together, the whole object being to out cheat the other players without being caught blatantly cheating. If you were caught out, then you were out of the game. Now, considering they were all cheating, and everyone knew that everyone else was cheating, I don't know that we could actually consider it cheating.

Just my two cents
Shawn
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 28, 2005 12:34PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-28 01:43, mook wrote:
How ironic you should say such a thing about Simon, Jason...
[/quote]

Mook,

Actually it isn't ironic at all. I'm allowed (last I checked) to have an opinion of someone else's status in the gambling community. Simon does a few nice moves, and knows more than most magicians, but I still don't consider him an expert in gambling and cheating (like many of the magicians on this board).

Nor do I consider myself an expert in gambling and cheating. I've been studying those subjects for about 14 years now, but I still consider myself a beginner in those worlds. I've met a handful of people that I consider to be [i]real[/i] experts and all of them have 2 or 3 times the years of experience that I have, and some have (or had) even more. More importantly, the few experts that I've met have been actively involved in the industry for many years. I haven't, so I wouldn't dream of calling myself an expert. You generally have to have dealt the games and spent years in the industry to qualify as an expert in my opinion. There are other routes, but not many.

Here's something I wrote about myself almost 2 years ago, on this board:

"To give you an example of where I think I fall in the grand scheme of things, I own a medium-sized card magic library (almost 400 books), a small mathematics library (about 100 books), and a small gambling library (about 120 books). Only about 10 - 12 of my gambling books are devoted to cheating, although many have sections or chapters devoted to cheating. I've been studying the subjects of gambling and cheating for about 12 years now and consider myself a rank beginner with little or nothing to offer the 10 or so "serious" guys that I know about. I've met a half-dozen or so "real" cheats that have moved in casinos in some capacity, and I don't know any of them well enough to ask them for favors of any sort, although I know them well enough to ask my "beginner" questions from time to time."

All of that still holds true today. I consider Forte to be the most knowledgeable all around person in the gaming industry today. Your buddy Sal Piacente is also very knowledgeable. He's dealt the games, worked in security, and been involved in the industry for many years. That's how you become an expert. I've done none of that, and as far as I know, neither has Simon.

If your remark was another reference to [i][b]Takedown[/i][/b], then perhaps you think I use that show as some sort of qualification in the gaming world? Give me a break. Just because I was on that show doesn't mean all the stuff in the above paragraph isn't still true. The show was fiction, designed by producers to look real. It was fun to do and I learned a lot about how tv shows are made. But I didn't learn anything about how casinos are cheated!

Relax.

By the way, I sent you a PM a few weeks ago on this very board. You didn't respond. Poor form.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Jay Newton (Nov 28, 2005 01:14PM)
[quote]
The show was fiction, designed by producers to look real.
[/quote]

See, now that's real cheating :)
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 28, 2005 01:48PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-28 13:14, Shawn74 wrote:
Bishthemagish,

Don't know how reliable this info is, or it may just be magician folklore. But I remember reading or hearing somewhere that The Profesor, Larry Jennings, Charlie Miller and that whole crew of cardmen of that period would play cards together, the whole object being to out cheat the other players without being caught blatantly cheating. If you were caught out, then you were out of the game. Now, considering they were all cheating, and everyone knew that everyone else was cheating, I don't know that we could actually consider it cheating.

Just my two cents
Shawn
[/quote]
Thank you for posting this information Shawn I found it interesting reading.

Glenn Bishop
Message: Posted by: halcon (Nov 28, 2005 02:51PM)
Bish and Shawn here it is straight from Larry Jennings website

"During this time, Larry, Dai Vernon, Charlie Miller, Ron Wilson, and Tony Giorgio would regularly play poker with the provision that you could cheat. However, if you got caught you would have to forfeit your pot and leave the table. At one game, Larry grabs Giorgio’s hand to reveal a palmed card."

story here>>> [url=http://www.larryjennings.com/jennings_biography.htm]here[/url]


Halcon
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 28, 2005 03:30PM)
Thanks Halcon.

Most cheating moves are hard to prove. Even if you know some one just made a move. The palm is an exception, and one of the most dangerous things to try at the table because of the proof element. Even bottom dealing for example, how sure can you be that a card was just dealt from the bottom, bearing in mind you have no replay button. It’s one thing for us to critique a magicians move and quite a different matter to accuse someone of cheating in a real game.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Nov 28, 2005 03:43PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-28 16:30, tommy wrote:
Thanks Halcon.

Most cheating moves are hard to prove. Even bottom dealing for example, how sure can you be that a card was just dealt from the bottom, bearing in mind you have no replay button. It’s one thing for us to critique a magicians move and quite a different matter to accuse someone of cheating in a real game.
[/quote]

Doc John once told me that a buddy of his was dealing when a girl at the table said "hey you're taking the second card!!" Hey just said "no I'm not, besides, what good would that do when I have no possible way of knowing what the second card is?" LOL
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 28, 2005 05:43PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-28 15:51, halcon wrote:
Bish and Shawn here it is straight from Larry Jennings website

"During this time, Larry, Dai Vernon, Charlie Miller, Ron Wilson, and Tony Giorgio would regularly play poker with the provision that you could cheat. However, if you got caught you would have to forfeit your pot and leave the table. At one game, Larry grabs Giorgio’s hand to reveal a palmed card."

story here>>> [url=http://www.larryjennings.com/jennings_biography.htm]here[/url]


Halcon
[/quote]

Thanks halcon for the link - I wish the wrote more about it.

Glenn
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 29, 2005 12:20PM)
Vandy

He did not, by any chance, say she was name Minnie did he.

Now here's the story bout Minnie the Moocher
She was a lowdown hoochie coocher
She was the roughest and the toughest frail
But Minnie had a heart as big as a whale

Hidee-Hidee-Hidee-hey
Hedee-Hedee-He
Hodee-Hodee-ho

The truth often gets in the way of a good story. :)
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Nov 29, 2005 01:01PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-29 13:20, tommy wrote:
Vandy

He did not, by any chance, say she was name Minnie did he.

Now here's the story bout Minnie the Moocher
She was a lowdown hoochie coocher
She was the roughest and the toughest frail
But Minnie had a heart as big as a whale

Hidee-Hidee-Hidee-hey
Hedee-Hedee-He
Hodee-Hodee-ho

The truth often gets in the way of a good story. :)
[/quote]

Are you calling my man a liar? LOL.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 29, 2005 02:28PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-18 23:24, KidCrenshaw wrote:
I'm simply curious about the forum, and you guys' views on magicians doing "gambling" sleight of hand, or simply gambling routines in general.
[/quote]
Card shark performance material to me IS a show of skill. To be able to show the audience what a bottom deal is. Then demonstrate the bottom deal or the second deal and then be able to fool the audience with the bottom deal or the second deal. Or at least make them feel that you could do these moves in a game to "get the money" IS A SKILL.

It is both a skill of technical ability but also a skill of the way it is presented to the public. One of the things that I have learned from many of the masters like Jack Pyle is that the audience does not want to see a lesson in card shark cheating they want to be entertained.

Years ago Jack Pyle’s son (Hypnotist John Ivan Palmer) told me that Jack Pyle spent a lot of money on a act that was how card sharks cheat. He got trick dice, hold outs, and spent a lot of money on a whole bunch of stuff. He booked it and the act was a flop. Why? Because an audience wants to be entertained!

So Jack Pyle changed the act to doing just card tricks and poker and bridge deals letting several audience members be his partners and dealt himself and his partners the winning hands. This act caught on because the audience was now in on it and not being lectured to. The audience became part of the act and the guy that the card shark dealt the hands to. Instead of being the losers they became the winners and admired the skill of Jack Pyle the guy that dealt the hands.

The thing is that the older a magician gets the easier it is to get away with doing the card shark material as well as other magic. Jack looked like a retired gambler or a retired card player. People have a hard time in believing that a person that is not old enough to get into a casino is an expert on card shark methods. Age is an advantage when performing this kind of material!
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 29, 2005 07:08PM)
Glen, I understand what you mean for the most part.

But I've got to be honest, I've been doing a simple 6 minute routine for a few months now demonstrating cheating techniques. Granted, this is always preceeded by magic, but it has always been well-received.

I do know that it can be boring watching nothing but a bland personality "show-off."

*cough* Darwin Ortiz *cough*

I say that, but speaking striclty from an entertaining p.o.v. Only because I am interested in the techniques does the guy fry me everytime and make me giggle like a schoolgirl.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 29, 2005 07:43PM)
Vandy I would not dare. It's that Minnie the Moocher I don't trust she told me she was the girl!

Fernando Keops does put a cheating show across well on his DVD, a very charming guy and a cool dealer. I am just trying work out how to put his estimation tip to use in holdem: Estimate 8 and trasfer the break to the heel peek with one hand maybe but maybe not.
Message: Posted by: halcon (Nov 29, 2005 08:04PM)
It always amazes me how cheating threads go on for so long. maybe the mods should consider adding another header on the forums for those interested in this kind of stuff.

Halcon
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 29, 2005 09:16PM)
Good for you KidCrenshaw... The thing that I have found interesting is that the real cheating methods can get a big ho-hum out of an audience. The reason I feel is that the lay audience see movies like the sting and shade. And think that a card shark can take a deck, shuffle it and then deal out five hands and everyone get something.

As we know it takes just as much skill to cull a hand as it takes to bottom deal a hand or stack a hand.

That is why I like the punch deal. It can bring a demonstration to the level of what a lay audience EXPECTS and THINKS a card shark can do. Like what they see in the movies. I will be producing a punch deal DVD in about two weeks as I feel that magicians should be able to look like they can do what the lay audience see's the movie card sharks do. And the punch deal can help with that as far as in a demonstration of card shark material.
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Nov 29, 2005 10:24PM)
KidCrenshaw,

Two weeks ago, I was in a home game. I was not invited nor did I know the host of the game. One of my friends who was in the game called me and said that maybe I'd want to roll by. I walked right into the house, I even opened the door myself. There was a tournament going on inside with approximated 75 players. They hired a Bicycle Club Poker dealer to run the game for the night. There were two cash game tables going on. One of them had approximately 10 large in play. I bought in at the smaller one. Not one person had bothered to ask me my identity. I held my own and eventually made my way to the big cash game. The girl seated next to me was a regular 500 NLHE player from the Bike. The guy across from me was a 200/400 HE player from Commerce. Rounding out the table were business owners, lawyers, a pit crew operator and the Host.

Now, I'm fairly proficient at shuffling. I deal for a gambling party service on occasion and have mustered up some nimble fingers. It seems that every game I've played in, I eventually end up doing all the dealing. More than likely, it is because I can move the game along and get more hands in than anyone else. This night was no exception.

Sometime during the course of the evening, one of the girls hanging around the table mentioned the movie "Shade". She said they did some amazing things in that movie. My friend, who sat to the right of me, piped out that I could do amazing things just like the movie.

The Game stopped.

Not for what you are probably thinking but because everyone wanted to see some "stuff". I told them I would demo them some things but that I would not expose any moves. I also mentioned to the girl that I had met and or was familiar with some of the technical advisors on the movie mentioned. That revelation failed to score me her number, however...

I executed some shuffle controls, some card controls, some hops, hold-outs and seconds. I did not explain what I was doing. As far as they could see, either I or the designated seat would keep getting the Ace of Spades. They were impressed for sure, but probably more perplexed since everything conformed to the usual procedure of the current game. There was basically nothing "cool" to see. I decided to cheat and pull a rabbit out of the magician's bag of tricks. I asked if they were familiar with palming cards. They all nodded in the affirmative. I flipped over the top card and proceeded to "palm" the card using the Erdnase/Houdini color change. I moved my hand about in the general motions one does at the table. I did not blatantly show my palm empty as that would have defeated the purpose of the demo. I replaced the "card" back on top of the deck using the aforementioned sleight.

Man, did those people react! I thought I was a Rock Star for a moment.

Anyway, the most amazing thing happened next.

The Host said, "Okay, back to the game. Shuffle and deal." With several thousands on the table, I was allowed to continue dealing. No heat, nothing. Just like that.

It wasn't the first time nor do I believe the last time it will happen. There is a plethora of home games in the West Coast and nearly every game I've played in has been lax. Interestingly enough, my friend also did not know anyone at the game. But we are now on the e-mail list for future games. It turns out this particular game was a time killing game. The usual game has deeper money.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this answers your original question or not. I just wanted to let everyone on this board know that I know some people from the "Shade" movie as it makes me feel bigger than I really am.
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 29, 2005 11:14PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-29 21:04, halcon wrote:
It always amazes me how cheating threads go on for so long. maybe the mods should consider adding another header on the forums for those interested in this kind of stuff.

Halcon
[/quote]

Are we taking up valuble "Pick A Card" space?

In truth, I would love to see it.

By the way, I dig the story. I guess it's a bit of hit and miss. Maybe I've been lucky with some brainless twits who laugh at chewed bubblegum, who knows.

Glen, I would be very interested to check out your DVD. Should I just check your website for updates?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Nov 29, 2005 11:56PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-29 23:24, rawdawg wrote:


It wasn't the first time nor do I believe the last time it will happen. There is a plethora of home games in the West Coast and nearly every game I've played in has been lax. Interestingly enough, my friend also did not know anyone at the game. But we are now on the e-mail list for future games. It turns out this particular game was a time killing game. The usual game has deeper money.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this answers your original question or not. I just wanted to let everyone on this board know that I know some people from the "Shade" movie as it makes me feel bigger than I really am.
[/quote]

Hey I'll be a few hours away from ya in 2 months. Need to get me in on this one. ;)
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 30, 2005 04:38AM)
Rawdawg that was a very interesting story even though it was a kind of scary to me. Why? Your friend not knowingly could have gotten you hurt by making that statement especially if you were in my environment or if there was a sore loser at that table.

I know that we play in different environments so yours wouldn't be as dangerous as mine. Yes, I've played in your environment and boy-oh-boy would I have love to have stayed in it. The money is so much more then where I'm presently am and you don't, most of the time have a problem leaving with it.

Even though showing off does make us get a big head and feel good, as a friend I would advise you not to keep demonstrating your skills because if someone see you at another game and if you're winning, they are going to assume that you've cheated in order to win and there is no way that you can prove that you didn't.

One more thing

Readers Doc John and Rawdawg's story shows you how much people/gamblers are suckers, how much they don't know about cheating, finger flashing, palming, second dealing etc. and when they do catch us, we can easily say some sucker stuff like Doc John's friend said which sounds so logical that it's not even questioned. These are the people we are trying to trim (cheat) not you here magicians who know what to look for.

I hope that this has been of some help to someone.

P.S. Mook have we ever met and if so where?

Doc
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 30, 2005 10:19AM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 00:14, KidCrenshaw wrote:
Glen, I would be very interested to check out your DVD. Should I just check your website for updates?
[/quote]
Check my web site and my blogs, this will be a limited number DVD as I feel it is my best card work on a side of magic that there really isn't that much written on. I like the punch deal a lot but you should also read books like Marlo in Spades, the punch letters, Phantom of the card table and Phantoms of the card table because there is useful info in those classic books about the punch.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Nov 30, 2005 11:52AM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 05:38, Unknown419 wrote:

Reading Doc John and Rawdawg's story shows you how much people/gamblers are suckers, how much they don't know about cheating, finger flashing, palming, second dealing etc. and when they do catch us, we can easily say some sucker stuff like Doc John's friend said which sounds so logical that it's not even questioned.

These are the people we are trying to trim (cheat) not you here magicians who know what to look for.

Doc
[/quote]

Precisely. It may sound silly what Docs buddy said. But I really believe it's the truth. First of all, Doc Johns credentials are impeccable. There is no doubt he was a pro dealer and crossroader, even had to sit a while for his deeds. Also a good magician who later went on to run a magic shop. If he says it, I believe him.

But beyond that, most magicians are "half smart" at best. (I'm about 1/4 smart). Most people that play recreationaly aren't even half smart. I doubt this woman really knew what was going on, but when she said "your taking the second card" she had a feeling "something" was going on. Doc's friends reply was perfect, because it's one of those things that kind of flies over your head while at the same time offering a bit of "logic". (one might say to themselves "that's true, what good would it do for him to take the second card?). And it's also the kind of thing that can the make rest of the table turn to the accuser and say "yeah, now be quiet and lets play". Because most people have no clue about a second deal. They just don't.

You have to know who you are playing with. If she said "hey, you just pulled a deuce!!" his blood may have run cold for a second. But he knew the table. So he just floated a line of BS that shut the whole notion down.

Don't underestimate em, but don't over estimate them either. Like Doc(419) says: "it shows you how much people/gamblers are suckers, how much they don't know about cheating." It's true, most people don't know that much.

Vandy
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 30, 2005 01:57PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 12:52, Vandy Grift wrote:
Don't underestimate em, but don't over estimate them either. Like Doc(419) says: "it shows you how much people/gamblers are suckers, how much they don't know about cheating." It's true, most people don't know that much.

Vandy
[/quote]
I do not consider card sharks, advantage players or a card cheat a gambler. Because they have an advantage over many of the other players. I also do not consider the occasional player a gambler. I consider a gambler as one that gambles on games of chance.

I also feel that many people do not know that much about card cheating. But because card playing with Texas holdem has become very popular. The card cheating demonstration of the magician has taken on a new popularity as well.

I also feel that like said above that some people don't know that much about card cheating. This is true of magic as well. But we live in an age that people can learn and even though many people do not know that much about card cheating or magic - I feel you have to look out for - and respect the people that do!

Just some thoughts.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Nov 30, 2005 02:08PM)
Hey Glen,

I agree for the most part. Sometimes things get confused when threads mix gambling and cheating and magic all up into one big ball. They are three completely different things.

I consider a cheater a cheater. and I consider anyone who plays games of chance for money,gamblers. Even if they only play occasionally. Even if they only play bingo.

I agree that you must watch out for the person with knowledge and the "half smart" gees. That goes for magic or cheating. I think what rawdawg did was crazy. I would never suggest that to anyone. But at the same time, according to him, the people that he was playing with continued to put money on the table. Oy Vay!!

Vandy
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 30, 2005 02:27PM)
Hi Vandy

I hope you are doing well and have a great Christmas season. I agree that the word gambler can cover a lot - not just card games and include bingo and the lottery.

One of the funny things I saw on Simon's tape about card cheating was his comments when he would talk about a move before he explained it that "It was highly prized by gamblers".

I would think "highly prized by a card cheat or a card shark".

Or what Mickey McDoogle once said "All strangers are not card cheats but every card cheat is a stranger".

That is a good one to.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Nov 30, 2005 02:38PM)
Thanks Glen, Hope you have a great Christmas and New Year as well. I like the McDougal quote. I hadn't heard that one.

This thread has taken some twists and turns but it's been a really fun one.

Vandy
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 30, 2005 03:43PM)
Using a straight deck, can anyone here make a film showing us them doing a strict casino shuffle and cut, keeping the four aces on top, or keeping the four aces on the bottom?

The procedure:

1. Scramble* the deck and call for antes or blinds

2. Shuffle, box*, shuffle shuffle (or shuffle, shuffle, box, shuffle, depending on the cardroom).

3. Position the cut card a few inches in front of the deck and release the deck. If you’re dealing a stud game, gather the antes before you cut the deck.

4. Cut the cards and pick up the deck. Square the deck both before you pick it up and afterwards in the proper manner.

5. Deal the cards.


* Box is a term meaning a running cut or as I call it a strip cut.
* Scramble means a Wash Shuffle, some call it a Chemi Shuffle.
The above is the casino industry standard. I got it from a dealer site and I think it is accurate for dealing poker in high stakes private games and casino games the world over from what I have seen.

http://www.dicedealer.com/poker_dealer_2.htm

In all the DVDs and books I have I don’t think I have seen it done.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 30, 2005 05:51PM)
Are you speaking of a simple bottom or top stock retention using box shuffles and running cuts, then presumably dealing yourself the aces?

I would think there is extreme simplicity in that series of motions. In fact, I practice that daily for my base deal.

Maybe I'm missing something...
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 30, 2005 06:31PM)
Can you do it and show us sticking strictly to the above casino procedure?
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 30, 2005 06:40PM)
Hey Tommy Happy Christmas.

I am not sure what casino procedure is when it comes to card games as I have never put a bet down in a casino and have only played cards in the home/private games. I wonder if the casino procedure would be a little different depending on the casino and the country the casino is in?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 30, 2005 06:56PM)
Happy Christmas Glen.

The answer is no in short but there maybe exceptions which I have not seen.

There are casinos that allow the public to deal and then you will see all sorts but that is not what I am looking for. Most high stakes poker games use pro dealers and that above procedure is what is tolerated and anything outside of it is lets say noticed. It does not mean your cheating if you do not stick to it but you may get comments from the seasond players who play in such games. Most of these guys are not fast company but know the procedure. It is a security procedure shuffle that is worked out to make life hard for the cheat. If it was easy to beat every other dealer in Vegas would be rich. :)
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Nov 30, 2005 06:59PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 18:51, KidCrenshaw wrote:
Are you speaking of a simple bottom or top stock retention using box shuffles and running cuts, then presumably dealing yourself the aces?

I would think there is extreme simplicity in that series of motions. In fact, I practice that daily for my base deal.

Maybe I'm missing something...
[/quote]

The cut card & cut.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 30, 2005 07:08PM)
The Scramble is not easy to beat that I am aware of. I have heard guys say it's not hard but I think otherwise and I would like to see what it looks like when they do.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 30, 2005 07:22PM)
Thanks Tommy.

I was talking to Jimmy Cards Molinari one time about John Scarne. And he mentioned that it was John Scarne that helped the casino's in Las Vegas change the way that they do some of the casino procedure. Like using more than one deck for 21 and other things. Because the casino's were losing lots of money from cheaters and advantage players at the time.

Tommy also helped me with learning about Texas holdem and helped along with Paul H with several holdem ideas for a card shark demo of holdem I worked out. I think it is still in the secret sessions section of the Café.

Thanks again Tommy for all the great ideas you have given this year.

Merry Christmas.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 30, 2005 07:33PM)
Yes John Scarne was no mug and was very respected by the old gamblers in Engand. I did not know he helped devise the casino procedures. If you show a card trick to some of the old gamblers even today and ask them to cut, they do a Scane cut which can kill a lot of tricks. Thanks Glen.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Nov 30, 2005 07:58PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 20:08, tommy wrote:
The Scramble is not easy to beat that I am aware of. I have heard guys say it's not hard but I think otherwise and I would like to see what it looks like when they do.
[/quote]

There are numerous ways to get around it. I'm surprised, being the poker guy you are, that you're not aware of any?

Scarne cut's easy to beat too.
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Nov 30, 2005 07:59PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 16:43, tommy wrote:
Using a straight deck, can anyone here make a film showing us them doing a strict casino shuffle and cut, keeping the four aces on top, or keeping the four aces on the bottom?
[/quote]

Are the Aces distributed before the wash or are they already under control?

Back when my hands were good, I was able to riffle cull any four of a kind called for in four shuffles with hardly any hesistation. Sometimes even 2 or 3, if I got lucky. That only lasted like two months.

Anyways, there is at least one poster on this thread who, I believe, could easily accomplish what you've asked for. I don't know if the person wants to be identified, so...

Anyways, I'm off to Fashion Island in Newport Beach for a cash game. We'll see how it goes...
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Nov 30, 2005 08:10PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 20:22, bishthemagish wrote:

I was talking to Jimmy Cards Molinari one time about John Scarne. And he mentioned that it was John Scarne that helped the casino's in Las Vegas change the way that they do some of the casino procedure. Like using more than one deck for 21 and other things. Because the casino's were losing lots of money from cheaters and advantage players at the time.

[/quote]

There's actually no official record of Scarne ever being employed by any casino. Of course, he did do a good deal of consulting work, but that had more to do with the fact that he was friendly with the various "management" at the clubs. :)

Scarne did a good deal of consulting work in the Batista-era Cuba. In his books he claims to have instituted procedures to foil counters and cheats, such as using multi-deck shoes composed of different-colored backs to overcome the 2-shoe, and not dealing through the entire shoe to stop counters.

I highly doubt Scarne had much influence with regards to Vegas procedures. That seems to be a very back-and-forth subject. In Casino Game Protection, Forte mentions a case where Harrah's decided to go all-shoe games and the players refused to play there; they went across the street to play single deck. The shoes were gone by the following morning.

No question, though, that the emergence of card counters on the scene drastically changed much of the dealing procedures at 21.


Posted: Nov 30, 2005 9:26pm
Quote:
On 2005-11-30 16:43, tommy wrote:
Using a straight deck, can anyone here make a film showing us them doing a strict casino shuffle and cut, keeping the four aces on top, or keeping the four aces on the bottom?

The procedure:

1. Scramble* the deck and call for antes or blinds

2. Shuffle, box*, shuffle shuffle (or shuffle, shuffle, box, shuffle, depending on the cardroom).

3. Position the cut card a few inches in front of the deck and release the deck. If you’re dealing a stud game, gather the antes before you cut the deck.

4. Cut the cards and pick up the deck. Square the deck both before you pick it up and afterwards in the proper manner.

5. Deal the cards.

* Box is a term meaning a running cut or as I call it a strip cut.
* Scramble means a Wash Shuffle, some call it a Chemi Shuffle.
The above is the casino industry standard. I got it from a dealer site and I think it is accurate for dealing poker in high stakes private games and casino games the world over from what I have seen.

http://www.dicedealer.com/poker_dealer_2.htm

In all the DVDs and books I have I don’t think I have seen it done.

Tommy

That's like "day one" stuff man...

Weed the wash, short shuffles and a brief are what the doctor ordered.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Nov 30, 2005 08:39PM)
Thanks for the info Mr. Z.
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Nov 30, 2005 08:58PM)
Hey Z,

Take me along to that game in California, will'ya? I need a laugh, and the money wouldn't hurt...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Nov 30, 2005 10:20PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 21:58, Paul Chosse wrote:
Hey Z,

Take me along to that game in California, will'ya? I need a laugh, and the money wouldn't hurt...

Best, PSC
[/quote]

Preparing the itinerary as we speak. ;)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 30, 2005 11:18PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 21:26, Mr. Z wrote:
[quote]
[/quote]

That's like "day one" stuff man...

Weed the wash, short shuffles and a brief are what the doctor ordered.
[/quote]

“Self-styled "ex-professionals" have regaled the public with astounding disclosures of their former wiles and wickedness, and have proven a wonderful knowledge of the subject by exhuming some antiquated moss-covered ruses as well known as nursery rhymes, and even these extraordinary revelations are calmly dismissed with the assertion that this or that artifice is employed; in nowise attempting to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned.”


Let me regale you guys with this:
I am not surprised there are no official casino records of Scarne working for casinos considering he was in his forties when Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel was shoot dead. You know, I don’t think there were any legal casinos even when I was kid in England. Most of the casino’s here were opened by villains who had been running illegal dens. Guys like Aspinall spring to mind.
John Aspinall made fortunes running illegal gambling dens before he founded many casinos, including the Clermont Club. 1962. Original members included five dukes, five marquesses, 20 earls and 'Lucky' Lord Lucan. A Reckless, eccentric and elitist, he was also an animal lover who established his own zoos. Controversially, five of his keepers have been killed by tigers and elephants according to reports. That must have been about the time that gambling became legal in England. “I think” before that the only place you could bet legally was at a race track. I have no idea what the score was in the USA.
The procedures in effect came from the players not the casino’s. If the players don’t like the procedure they will not play. Scanes books I think had some influence on the players and how to deal here at least but I am only guessing. There were not many books that I recall other than Scarne that gave any guidance on it over here.


Tommy
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Nov 30, 2005 11:28PM)
[quote]
On 2005-12-01 00:18, tommy wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 21:26, Mr. Z wrote:
[quote]
[/quote]

That's like "day one" stuff man...

Weed the wash, short shuffles and a brief are what the doctor ordered.
[/quote]

“Self-styled "ex-professionals" have regaled the public with astounding disclosures of their former wiles and wickedness, and have proven a wonderful knowledge of the subject by exhuming some antiquated moss-covered ruses as well known as nursery rhymes, and even these extraordinary revelations are calmly dismissed with the assertion that this or that artifice is employed; in nowise attempting to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned.”


Let me regale you guys with this:
I am not surprised there are no official casino records of Scarne working for casinos considering he was in his forties when Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel was shoot dead. You know, I don’t think there were any legal casinos even when I was kid in England. Most of the casino’s here were opened by villains who had been running illegal dens. Guys like Aspinall spring to mind.
John Aspinall made fortunes running illegal gambling dens before he founded many casinos, including the Clermont Club. 1962. Original members included five dukes, five marquesses, 20 earls and 'Lucky' Lord Lucan. A Reckless, eccentric and elitist, he was also an animal lover who established his own zoos. Controversially, five of his keepers have been killed by tigers and elephants according to reports. That must have been about the time that gambling became legal in England. “I think” before that the only place you could bet legally was at a race track. I have no idea what the score was in the USA.
The procedures in effect came from the players not the casino’s. If the players don’t like the procedure they will not play. Scanes books I think had some influence on the players and how to deal here at least but I am only guessing. There were not many books that I recall other than Scarne that gave any guidance on it over here.


Tommy
[/quote]

I think you meant to quote my other post...
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Nov 30, 2005 11:38PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 19:31, tommy wrote:
Can you do it and show us sticking strictly to the above casino procedure?
[/quote]

I still think I'm missing something.

You seem to find this difficult, but being a card man that it seems you are, I can't where your difficulty lies.

I think I'm missing something...

But then again, Mr. Z make sme feel as if I am not.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 1, 2005 12:04AM)
Using a straight deck, can anyone here "make a film" showing us them doing a strict casino shuffle and cut, keeping the four aces on top, or keeping the four aces on the bottom?

Many guys have told me they can do it but saying it and "showing" that they can are often two different things. If you can do it then show us. Then I will give you an honest opinion of if it will pass in my game. If you don't want to give a demo that is no problem.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Dec 1, 2005 12:40AM)
Forgive my ignorance as I am quite new...

By "scramble", I assume you mean to spread the deck face-down atop the table, as casinos do on the first hand, collect the cards and then gather them in preperation for a shuffle, no?

By shuffle, I am assuming you mean a tabled riffle shuffle (no real misunderstanding there), and your "box" is, I assume, what I have known as a running cut, I think I am correct thus far, no?

Make a cut onto the cut card, carry the cut, and begin dealing. At this point, with no "funny" moves, have the aces on the top or bottom?

Assuming the cut card stays on the bottom of the deck, don't know why it wouldn't, you're right, I couldn't do it.

Because I can't do a Greek deal... yet.

All of the rest could be simply accomplished though - I fail to see the difficulty, again, am I missing something?

I could certainly make a video, but I am by no means saying my chops are anywhere near suitable for the card table - so I'm not sure of what it would accomplish watching my methodically slow-steady hands working the deck. I also only have a webcam and no real table to do this on. Only a keyboard glide that's only slightly wider than my close-up mat.

I know, excuses, excuses.

I'm not bothered honestly. I feel no need to prove to you something as siomple as tracking some face down cards, bottom stock control, running to a break and cutting to a crimp. Quite elementary as was stated by Mr. Z.

You mean to tell me that the card men you know aren't capable of this?

Makes me question your cardmen, which I know I certainly should not as I am sure their experience in the field probably extends beyond by living days.

Again, I feel as if I am missing something.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 1, 2005 01:30AM)
Right first I do not ask you to false deal just have the Aces on top or botton of the deck after you complete the shuffle.

Maybe you do not understand what a scramble is I am not sure: It is let us say for this purpose taking a new order deck, spreading the deck face up to show the players all the cards are there. So you know where the Aces are to start with. Now the the scramble is turning deck face down and making what looks like a big mess of them on the table wahing them around in circles with both hands. That is about the best I can explain a scramble. Anyone who has played poker in a casino will understand what I mean. Then you push them together face down but they are not easy to square up at this point, so what your supposed to do is pick up the cut card card put it on the bottom tilt the deck on it's side faces toward you and square up that way sort of. (It is easier to do than explain correctly)

Now you have em squared and face down on the table, remove the cut card and do two riffle shuffles, now do a fair runnuing cut as explained by Erdnase. Now one more riffle and square up. Release the deck. Cut using one hand only onto the cut card. Compleat the cut and square up.

That is about as best I can say it. Now if after that you have all the Aces at the bottom of deck or all at the top and it looks cool you should go and get yourself a job in casino or you can work at my place or a place like mine and earn money cheating doing just that.

Hope I explained it OK.
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Dec 1, 2005 01:37AM)
KidCrenshaw,

I think "scramble" means "washing" the cards or spreading the cards around the table in a haphazard, circular like motion. Boxing is "stripping" the deck or running cuts, as you've said.

I think Tommy isn't so disbelieving of someone executing the sleights so much as executing them in a fair and natural manner so as to not arouse suspicion, let alone, detect the action.

Anyways, the game I mentioned earlier took place in Newport Beach across the street from Fashion Island. It's a fairly affluent area filled with Beemer's, Benz's and Republicans. The Clubhouse was located in a housing complex that had it's own Hair Salon, Market place, Sports Center, etc...

It turned out to be a small stakes game with no real money on the table. Just a bunch of guys bemoaning, stocks, Indexes and USC. I knew only one person at this game and he only knew one person. Anyways, I ended up dealing the game as usual. It seems that every game I'm in, everybody hates to deal. It's like some kind of chore to them. I once, accidently, closed out a hand that still had one player left to act. The player held pocket 6's and had flopped a set. The player left in the hand held top pair and was clearly ready to give action. Even with that gaff, the guy with the set defended my blunder by saying I was doing everybody a favor by dealing. I offered to pay him the bet he was going to make($20) but he waved it off. I was perfect the rest of the night, though.

It just seems to me with the explosion of Poker thanks to ESPN, there are so many really loose and lax games in Southern California right now. It isn't even necessary to take any advantages as the games are filled with bad players emulating final table action. Granted, I've mostly only played in games with money on the table in the hundreds or low thousands so I wouldn't know how much heat is involved in the big games. I have sat and watched a 200/400 NLHE game with splashed pots, wild bets, cards lifted off the table and peeked at in the lap, decks taken off the table and dipped under the edge to complete cuts, etc.... Things that would probably give Tommy a heart attack. But most of these players were Entertainment/Fashion Industry types that had big money and no clue.

Anyways, my point is or at least what I'm trying to say is that I'm thinking of putting together a "location" crew to take down the Capitalist swine.

Power to the Proletariat, comrades!
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Dec 1, 2005 02:00AM)
"Boxing" the deck can mean both a single cut and a running cut (stripping the deck).

I prefer to use "boxing" the deck to mean a single cut and "stripping the deck" when referring to a running cut to avoid confusion, but this usage isn't universal.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 1, 2005 02:16AM)
I have never heard box before to tell the truth but that comes from a pro casino site in the USA. What they do in a casino in poker is strip the deck as far as I am concerned. Magicians call it a running cut.

Any way what about it Jason, are you going to give us a demo for Christmas if it's easy. :)
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Dec 1, 2005 03:17AM)
Okay, I was right in my assumptions of what you meant in your descriptions, it just appears that we were both weak in explaining it.

I figured there was more to it than sheer difficulty in action, but I'll tell you what Tommy, I'll make a video in January demonstrating exactly the procedure you described.

I guarantee that it will be clean, and it would look fair. I'm even more excited because you don't expect me to Greek deal. I've been doing this stuff for about 2 months straight, and, admittedly while there is a lifetime of study to do, I'm quite sure my hours-long sessions everyday of doing exactly what you have described (with the addition of the scramble, that is) will prove fruitful in January.

Four card stock retention is cake. Using methods familiar with magic, I can see the simplicity of maintaining four cards while scrambling the deck. While I'm sure it's a bit more difficult than I am imagining it to be, I'm quite certain that it is acheivable within the next month and a half.

And it all has to be on the up and up...

Challenge accepted.

P.S. If Jason does a video, you don't get to see mine - you must just assume that I did it as well as he.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 1, 2005 03:32AM)
Good luck Kid I really look forward to seeing what you come up with. I will give a true and honest opinion. I am not trying to score any points, I really want to see it done like Rawdawg said so well: "I think Tommy isn't so disbelieving of someone executing the sleights so much as executing them in a fair and natural manner so as to not arouse suspicion, let alone, detect the action."

Latter Tommy
Message: Posted by: luvisi (Dec 1, 2005 04:38PM)
Tommy: Can you point us to any videos showing the procedure being done fairly? Or could you make one?

rawdawg: You should have done the 21 card trick, just like Jason did in the movie. ;)

Andru
Message: Posted by: PapaG (Dec 1, 2005 04:50PM)
How is it possible to beat the scramble exactly? Just with well-honed powers of observation and memory?
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Dec 1, 2005 04:56PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 19:31, tommy wrote:
Can you do it and show us sticking strictly to the above casino procedure?
[/quote]
Ill try and post up the most common procedure here in canada for the wash,shuffle and cut... I need to go get a camera..
Message: Posted by: Craig Krisulevicz (Dec 1, 2005 06:19PM)
[quote]
On 2005-12-01 17:50, PapaG wrote:
How is it possible to beat the scramble exactly? Just with well-honed powers of observation and memory?
[/quote]

Just like twix, it's all in the mix.

Or sometimes, it's just optical illusions. Think along the lines of a scrape cut.
Message: Posted by: PapaG (Dec 1, 2005 06:23PM)
Can you be more specific? Perhaps post in Secret Sessions?
Message: Posted by: Craig Krisulevicz (Dec 1, 2005 06:25PM)
Sorry, for the sake of where I learned it from, I can't.

$
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Dec 1, 2005 07:06PM)
[quote]
On 2005-12-01 17:38, luvisi wrote:

rawdawg: You should have done the 21 card trick, just like Jason did in the movie. ;)

Andru
[/quote]

Funny you should say that. After considering my actions, I now feel I should have done some kind of hands off mathematical trick. Or at least something that uses actions so foreign to the table that it would be obviously no use in a game. Live and learn.

Another funny... Last night, I was under the most heat I'd ever been while dealing. In a tournament, the guy who went out on the bubble sat there and burned me for the rest of the game. I could literally sense his eyes on my hands. Weird feeling, that is.

Also, earlier in the game, when everyone did their own deals, one guy joked about dealing from the bottom on his deal. Everyone laughed. It seemed to me that everyone laughed at the joke because to them, that kind of stuff only happened in the movies or in big, private, shady back room games. It surely wouldn't happen at a respectable game amongst friends. Thought somebody might find this interesting.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Dec 1, 2005 07:56PM)
Dawg,

We should see each other more often. I'm beginning to like the sound of the company you're keeping.

JDE
Message: Posted by: mook (Dec 2, 2005 11:30PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-30 16:43, tommy wrote:
Using a straight deck, can anyone here make a film showing us them doing a strict casino shuffle and cut, keeping the four aces on top, or keeping the four aces on the bottom?

The procedure:

1. Scramble* the deck and call for antes or blinds

2. Shuffle, box*, shuffle shuffle (or shuffle, shuffle, box, shuffle, depending on the cardroom).

3. Position the cut card a few inches in front of the deck and release the deck. If you’re dealing a stud game, gather the antes before you cut the deck.

4. Cut the cards and pick up the deck. Square the deck both before you pick it up and afterwards in the proper manner.

5. Deal the cards.
[/quote]
Tommy,

I've seen Sal Piacente do this in a seminar when I dealt poker in A.C. He used our house procedure: short wash, riffle, riffle, strip, riffle, cut. My jaw dropped when I saw him turn over the top 4 cards and they were the aces. Sal says that it's on his new poker DVD in the "False Shuffles" section. He said they will start selling them next week (I think he said Wednesday) and that you could save money on it with a code on his Card Player Magazine ad (Dec. 7 issue).

I saw a trailer for the DVD at: pokercheatsexposed.net. You have to click on "View Trailer Clip" after you click on the DVD. Sal says they're not taking orders until next week, on Wednesday, I think.

Posted: Dec 3, 2005 12:54am
Quote:
On 2005-12-01 03:00, JasonEngland wrote:
"Boxing" the deck can mean both a single cut and a running cut (stripping the deck).
Jason

In the casino industry, "boxing" refers to taking roughly 1/3 of the deck from the bottom and immediately placing it on top.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Dec 3, 2005 01:52AM)
[quote]
On 2005-12-03 00:54, mook wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-12-01 03:00, JasonEngland wrote:
"Boxing" the deck can mean both a single cut and a running cut (stripping the deck).
Jason
[/quote]

In the casino industry, "boxing" refers to taking roughly 1/3 of the deck from the bottom and immediately placing it on top.
[/quote]

Mook,

You're right, that's what it means most of the time. However I recently read of a few places that use the term to mean a running cut, or what might be referred to as "stripping" the deck (taking small packet off of the top one after another).

That's why I mentioned the two possible definitions, depending on what locale you're in. But I agree, the most common (and from what I can tell, more correct) definition is a single cut (as you said, of about 1/3 of the deck from top to bottom).

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 3, 2005 06:09AM)
Thanks Mook

I was aware Sal had a DVD comming out but did not know when. I look forward to seeing the shuffle work.

"Box": Over here they some times say a card has been "boxed" meaning a card has accidently turned face up in the deck, reversed cards in other words. If it happens during a shuffle they might say you have boxed the deck.

That Dealer site however seems to know what they talking about and they use "box" to mean strip the deck, I am sure about that. I mean they have guys like Forte on that site talking so it isn't some Micky Mouse place. Although I have nerver heard it before, I like it, as it makes it easy to explain a shuffle procedure, like short hand talk. Well it is ok so long as we all know what it means.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: Simon Lovell (Feb 3, 2006 11:34AM)
Dear All,

I don't get hear too often so have only just read this thread. Very interesting!

To clear up a few comments with regards to me ...

1. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on modern casino cheating techniques. People like Sal and Steve Forte are certainly far more in the know than I am with regards to that area of the industry. I have, however, consulted several casinos though and regularly do talks to the police and others on common street hustles and other cons most likely to be found. Recently I gave a talk to the CIA and other high government people on misinformation and how con games actually work. The three hour lecture over-ran as there were so many questions from the group!

2. I have both dealt and 'moved' in reasonably high staked poker games in my younger, more rash, days and consider my work on some moves to be pretty good. I still deal a game for fun (and a nice pay check) for one of the more well known 'families' once a month here in NYC. They get quite a kick out of seeing some moves in the break knowing full well that I won't cheat them when I'm dealing the game. I know it's real hard to walk in concrete shoes underwater! I also still love to play poker ... a game of pure adrenaline that puts a frisk in my shoes and a song in my heart!

3. I don't think Jason and I have met but I'd like to. His comments are both fair and well constructed. I'm also a fan of his work. Jason I'm glad you liked the book. It really wasn't designed to be anything other than a fun read and the whole Freddy thing was just my way of trying to keep such a diverse amount of material together. Oddly enough your comment on the book would be exactly my comment on Shade. I enjoyed the movie though it was a little flawed in table procedure during the game. A fun watch though. Your hand work on it was really very nice indeed. I hope we'll meet up soon one of these days! As a side note Gabriel Byrne came to my Strange and Unusual Hobbies show a few weeks ago and we had a nice chat (he enjoyed the show!) ... a very charming man indeed.

There you have it ... no gripes ... just letting those who don't know me know where I stand in the industry. Much like Jason I only claim to be a pretty good magician with, after years of study and both finding and meeting the real guys like Fast Jack, quite a lot of knowledge about the gambling world and not a gambler with magic knowledge. I don't think that putting my way through university by both playing and cheating at poker by any stretch makes me an expert! As for the best expert on the planet it really depends on what area you are talking about. After all, I doubt that there is anybody who actually knows it all!

Kind regards to all,

Simon Lovell
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 6, 2006 11:55AM)
Simon

Can you tell us about the moves you made at the table when you were younger. What were the game/s played that you moved in.
I find the games today are more difficult to move in than they were when Draw and Stud poker dominated the scene. Or maybe your not talking poker, maybe Bridge and even Kalooki, these are the games where a lot of cheating goes on.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 6, 2006 02:56PM)
Hey tommy have you ever read a book called how to cheat your friends at poker. I think you would enjoy it. its very funny and informative.
Message: Posted by: Simon Lovell (Feb 6, 2006 05:25PM)
Tommy,

I played a lot of the UK game Three-Card-Brag along with draw poker, 7 card high-lo poker and a few versions of Blackjack one called Pontoon and the other Shoot Pontoon. Moves and/or techniques depended on the game and how fast the company was!

Simon
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 6, 2006 06:56PM)
"Shoot" that brings back memories. What a game that was! Three card also. Them were the days.



PS
No I ain't got that book yet, I have been meaning to get it.
Message: Posted by: Simon Lovell (Feb 9, 2006 12:11PM)
Shoot Pontoon was one of my favorite games to play ... Three card Brag came a very close second. Both are fast and brutal games ... just the way I like them!

Simon
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 9, 2006 02:13PM)
Book is asome. it a little offensive but its funny as hell and has some great stories as well as good advice
Message: Posted by: magician8 (Jul 14, 2007 07:35PM)
Simon, I've bought some of your dvds and I am a big fan of you.



A.S.E