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Topic: Responsibility of the magicians..
Message: Posted by: jack_is_dead (Dec 20, 2005 09:08PM)
Well..as I get into more magic and buy myself more dvds I realize there are many magicians in the dvd that sometimes forget that their dvd is purchased so that begginers can learn from it..they forget that the buyers of the dvd has also have to go to lots of trouble to get their dvd..what I really mean is some magicians don't explain their trick sufficiently..they might do some slight that you are interested and when the explanation part comes they just skip that part.I remember watching a dvd of darwin ortiz when he teaches a glimpse he just said sorry guys this glimpse is only for left handers like me..if you are right handed you cant do this glimpse so find a good glimpse technic from some books.That glimpse was so essential for the trick..isnt it the magicians responsibility to find another alternative and make that extra effort??begginers like me who bought his dvd with my part time job pay would be dissapointed.I am not saying all magicians forget about the customers who buy their product..i have never seen Michael Ammar doing this kind of things..thats why I always buy Michaels dvd without worry..I think magicians have to put more effort and think about the person buying their dvd..anyone here had the same kind of problems??
Message: Posted by: Corey Harris (Dec 20, 2005 09:15PM)
Not all DVD's are for begginers. In fact there aren't many dvd's out there for begginers at all. With a lot of the dvd's out there they are assuming that you are studied somewhat well in the art that they don't need to teach every thing. Can you imagine if every dvd you bought taught every little thing? Some dvds would be 3 to 4 hours of explaination.
Message: Posted by: jack_is_dead (Dec 20, 2005 11:11PM)
I understand..and I am not arguing that they have to cover every little things..but they at least have to cover those which are vital for the trick..if you cant do the trick without that sleight it have to be thought disregarding the level of knowlege of the buyers..i personally think it is not proper to ask the customers to go and find it in a book..whats the point in purchasing their dvd then?the reason to buy dvd as an amateur will be to learn the sleights as well as get an insight of the magicians view of the sleight..if the most important sleight to do a trick wasnt covered properly than the dvd is worthless..many amateurs can see a magician perform and guess what is the process or how to do this trick but the details of the sleight is important..just my view..
Message: Posted by: Corey Harris (Dec 20, 2005 11:41PM)
This is why learning from books is vital.
Message: Posted by: Frank Tougas (Dec 21, 2005 12:56AM)
I'm afraid it isn't much different than the old "Force a card using your favorite method." A favorite of magic authors far and wide. Do magicians who produce books, DVD's Tapes and instructional material have the responsibility to give you what is necessary to do the trick? Yes. Can they be held to that standard? No. In way magic has not changed much from the first day a trick was sold to another, Buyer beware! And maybe add to that, buyer be prepared.

Frank Tougas
Message: Posted by: jack_is_dead (Dec 21, 2005 03:37AM)
Yeah buyers be prepared..i think it is very important for a person to beware of what they are buying..there are wide range of dvds in the market that could cause a fortune..knowing the author of the dvd and publication details could give some guarantee for your money and effort..there are some magicians that will go to that extra trouble and make an effort to give the fullest to the customers..and there are a few that would just tell you how it is done without being concern if the buyer would have sufficient knowlege to confidently perform the trick..for me magicians like Ammar and Daryl should be a role model for other magicians..i know if I buy Ammar or Daryls dvd I will have no problem..if they can do it I'm sure others could..its just the matter of effort and weighing the quality!
Message: Posted by: Cory Gallupe (Dec 21, 2005 02:15PM)
I somewhat agree. I have seen 2 dvds that "Teach the Pass" And when the pass comes up, they show their handling, but don't teach how its done. They just say "This is how I do it. Now go get a book and learn..." But other dvds I believe that they shouldnt go into great detail because it is not for beginners. It is for people who have been into magic for a while. So it would get quite annoying learning the same slieghts over and over again.
Message: Posted by: edh (Dec 21, 2005 04:04PM)
I would think that authors of DVD's and books could post a blurb about the difficulty level of the product. This includes sellers of tricks. Of course if this system were used it would limit the amount of sales an author would obtain(something most authors would not want to do).
Message: Posted by: evolve629 (Dec 21, 2005 04:55PM)
I understand some of the frustration expressed by Jack. I sometimes run into the same issues with some dvds. Hence, I have to do my homework. I have four basic card dvds that teach sleights and passes and I also have many card dvds that are considered intermediate to advance. I'm still trying to save up some funds for the Encyclopedia of Card Sleights by Daryl. I think some magic webstores do post the level of technical difficulty on each dvd. Some magicians expect you to have some fundemantal knowledge. And some magicians are good teachers and some are not so good. Therefore, hopefully by doing your research before buying to avoid or minimize the likelihood of "buyer disappointment."
Message: Posted by: Hideo Kato (Dec 22, 2005 09:19AM)
Any music publisher never explain finger techniques when they sell scores of Piano music. When magic publisher sell magic tricks, they assume buyers have mastered basic techniques.

But if a special, non-popular techniques are used in tricks, magic publisher should/would explain those techniques together with the tricks.

I sincerely recommend beginners to buy appropriate materials (such as Royal Road, Card College) and master basic techniques before buying scores for Piano Sonatas or Concertos.

I predict magic publishers wouldn't change that style, so buyers must be prepared accordingly. But, Ammar or Daryl are superior authours anyway in that regard.

Hideo Kato
Message: Posted by: Frank Tougas (Dec 22, 2005 02:17PM)
[quote]
On 2005-12-22 10:19, Hideo Kato wrote:
Any music publisher never explain finger techniques when they sell scores of Piano music. When magic publisher sell magic tricks, they assume buyers have mastered basic techniques. Hideo Kato[/quote]Apples & Oranges Hideo. Publisher's of sheet music do not produce full page color advertisement touting how amazed your audience will be after performing the latest concert piece.

Also you are not a musician until you've mastered the basics of reading sheet music and playing an instrument. There are no such requirements to call oneself a magician.
Two tricks and a business card seem to suffice. I don't say this is a good thing, just an observation.

This is why if a poor musician hits a clinker, the audience winces and complains after a performance. A poor magician takes his/her polite applause and tells his/her magic buddies, how he/she killed.

Frank Tougas
Message: Posted by: Hideo Kato (Dec 23, 2005 01:55AM)
I believe apples can learn from oranges.

Hideo Kato
Message: Posted by: toolman22 (Dec 23, 2005 08:05AM)
I have to agree with EDH they should put on the box begginer, intermediate and advanced.
Message: Posted by: Bob Johnston (Dec 23, 2005 02:25PM)
[quote]
On 2005-12-21 00:11, jack_is_dead wrote:
I understand..and I am not arguing that they have to cover every little things..but they at least have to cover those which are vital for the trick..
[/quote]

That is exactly what Corey Harris is talking about above. Just to explain those “few” slights would take a long time.

Bob
Message: Posted by: Frank Tougas (Dec 23, 2005 08:12PM)
[quote]
On 2005-12-23 15:25, Wellington wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-12-21 00:11, jack_is_dead wrote:
I understand..and I am not arguing that they have to cover every little things..but they at least have to cover those which are vital for the trick..
[/quote]

That is exactly what Corey Harris is talking about above. Just to explain those “few” slights would take a long time.

Bob[/quote] I am not sure that saving time is the point of an instructional video.

Frank Tougas
Message: Posted by: Bob Johnston (Dec 23, 2005 09:20PM)
Frank Tougas makes a very good point.
Were it not true, there would be a single book or video, that covered all we need to know about magic.

Bob
Message: Posted by: Frank Tougas (Dec 23, 2005 09:41PM)
I think what is needed is what we would call in therapy as informed consent. It isn't enough to agree to therapy but you also need to be informed about what can happen to the information you give in session.

Applied to magic books and video, the advertsisng, and reviews for that matter, need to be a bit more specific about what they are selling. Unfortunately I was reading a catalog description on a trick where the copy stated, this is selling so well the guy is having trouble making them up fast enough. Wow of course I needed one! That was in the mid 1960's. Having read the exact same copy in a late 1990's catalog makes one wonder a bit on the accuracy of the information a magic buyer is given with which to make an "Informed purchase". I hope this post turns out to be "fruitful" ;) Merry Christmas to all my Café friends.

Frank Tougas
Message: Posted by: edh (Dec 24, 2005 06:23PM)
Frank, I personally don't think much will come out of this thread. Like I mentioned above any added information would limit the sales of the products. Not good from the authors point of view. As for Reviews you really can't count on them for an honest evaluation of a product. Many reviewers are biased towards the author. After all they may be selling something next week and sure as heck don't want to get a negative review.

Just my thoughts.
Message: Posted by: bigchuck (Dec 25, 2005 11:20AM)
[quote]
On 2005-12-23 02:55, Hideo Kato wrote:
I believe apples can learn from oranges.

Hideo Kato
[/quote]

This is one of the best things I've heard in a while, and I totally agree.
Message: Posted by: jack_is_dead (Dec 25, 2005 12:51PM)
The things that I ask fellow authors to do is not an impossible task..it had been done before and is being done now..there are established authors who cares for the buyers and give great importance to the quality of the video..and there are some failed to do so..my worries are these kind of authors are growing more and more resulting on poor videos..even if I am a pro and I got all the sleights in my fingertips I still demand a little more serious attention on the vital sleights..some comments about the authors personal insights would not take hours..and sometimes those little demonstration and comments of that single task would be a great help for someone who is trying to learn the whole trick..every other established magicians have their own style of doing things and I wouldnt buy a video if I am not interested in their style..all we buyers are asking is a little more value for the money and support we give.
Message: Posted by: Corey Harris (Dec 25, 2005 03:23PM)
In my opinion, if you want more value for your money. THen you shouldnt be buying Magic DVD's in the first place, you should be buying magic books. Then you will being getting more for your money.
Message: Posted by: jack_is_dead (Dec 26, 2005 12:00AM)
[quote]
On 2005-12-25 16:23, Corey Harris wrote:
In my opinion, if you want more value for your money. THen you shouldnt be buying Magic DVD's in the first place, you should be buying magic books. Then you will being getting more for your money.
[/quote]
I understand that books are great source of knowlege and you can never loose your money getting a book..i also have numerous books..but that's out of the topic Corey..I am trying to disscuss about dvds not books..if you think that Magic DVD has no value then I think you are absolutely wrong..some people learn well by books and some are better with video..you may like books but I like dvd better..i learn faster by that way..anyway this is not what we are disscussing originally..I own a number of dvds..great dvds..i buy them not only to learn a certain trick but also to get some insights of some sleights from the authors..i have allready know those sleights but I want to learn how the author does it as there are many preferences.example if an instructor says use any force..it means you can use any force that you know..and yes I know a number of forces..but what I want them to do is include their opinion of the most suitable force for this particular trick..or which force they will do while performing this trick..for example I want the magician to say something like"at this point I would normally use the hindhu shuffle force because the pack of cards doesn't have to leave your hands..so you don't have to worry about repositioning your order of cards" that was just an example and sorry if that doesn't make sense..if he just take a moment to demonstrate his moves than those who knows about that sleight gets to see how this magician does it and those who didn't could learn it there and than itself..dont you think this is important??It is an instructional dvd after all..and as I have said before there are authors that give this in their dvd..When I buy a dvd I am also feel that I have just supported that magician in his effort..dont I deserve enough??going into that extra effort would only take a few extra minutes..And again it is not about getting books for I know just how important books are allready..there are reason for those people who spend their money on dvd and I think its proper to say to all buyers to be carefull of what they are buying..do not support dvd that has bad quality..you can get value for your money by being extra coutious..
Message: Posted by: Michael Taggert (Dec 26, 2005 08:44AM)
There is a piece of wisdom brewing here folks. The one thing that helps all of us as magicians is the fect that we can commincate with each other but it needs to be a bit more personal than that. This is why The brick and mortar magic shops are so important and belonging to a magical society is vital. It is here that you get an honest assesment of your skills and recomendations from your mentors as to what would be a perfect addtion for you. Not all books Videos and DVD's are ment (nor should they be) for the beginner or even some of the more advanced of us. some of them aren't woth the paper they are written on. when I was younger I too wasted a lot of time and money searching for great material. it wasn't untill I started listening to and asking those that mentored me, That I was able to sort through the huge pile of material that is out there. Not all material is good in print. almost every lecture Ive been to the presentor had a book of some kind but not all of them have been good. Yes the author should have a sense of responibilty for the work. will it happen NO! will you be able to save your money for what is good for you YES if you ask and listen to those who try to help you. think about it and then make an informed decision. don't just buy from the web do your homework first.
Message: Posted by: abc (Dec 28, 2005 08:56AM)
If I may I want to get right to the top of th epost and answer a question there. The DVD mentioned with the trick that uses a glimpse.
I do not think that the glimpse is the main point of the effect. The trick in question is purely taught as a way to introduced a memorised deck and can be left out of the routine although it is a great effect. There are two options of which I use both. 1 Learn another glimpse or two switch hands and use the glimpse taught on the DVD. It felt a little funny doing this the first time I did it but the sleight is so good that righthanders could also use it very convincingly.
The reason I say this is if he went into an explanation of the glimpse for a right hander then number 1 he should have changed hands which is unreasonable to expect and 2 I would have been bored because I don't want Ortiz to teach me a glimpse. That is not why I buy the DVDs. I buy his DVD's mostly to watch how he routines effects which is why I think the essence of that trick is the introduction of a memorised deck and not so much the effect or the glimpse. The point I am trying to make is that the authors can not please everyone and I am 95% happy with all the material I have acquired over a long period of time to act in unison and make sense to me. In due time you will have everything that you need thanks to the exact way magic is authored today with a wide variety of of presentations.
Just a last note.
I disagree that you learn faster from DVD's. If you are an absolute beginner then maybe yes but if you have a large number of hours under your belt performing and practising then you will learn a lot faster from a book. The reason is you do not have a lot of nonsense going on in the meantime. No lets look at that effect from the audience point of view. Now in slow motion. Now let me do it again and show you another angle. Ok now let me show you the set up or the move or whatever. I hate that.
You should focus on what you can learn from DVDs that you can not learn from books to make them valuable which is why I don't think the authors should change the way they are doing DVDs (at least the respected ones like Ortiz,Mcbride,Piacente Etc)