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Topic: I like XCM "and" Magic
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 6, 2006 10:01AM)
I'm fairly new to all of this XCM stuff, although I've been doing roughly the same type of stuff as a by-product of my interest in magic and cards for about 30 years.

I really like this XCM stuff!.....it's incredibly visual, and also quite stunning in its speed.

It doesn't take long to see that there's a bit of ill will between XCM'ers and Magicians....what's this all about?

I just don't get how advanced card handling and XCM are that different.

I've read all the different opinions between what's a sleight and what's a flourish, and what are they meant to accomplish, but it still doesn't seem like the building blocks for a major difference of opinion.
I do know that De'vo's song about Magicians little red balls doesn't help the matter along, but it all had to come from somewhere.

I'm actually enjoying this *new* discovery of mine......I've bought a couple of XCM DVD's, and am quite looking forward to this new interest.

Don't hate me fellow magicians, but I really like this XCM stuff!

Cheers.
Message: Posted by: monark (Jan 6, 2006 11:53AM)
[quote]
On 2006-01-06 11:01, silverking wrote:
It doesn't take long to see that there's a bit of ill will between XCM'ers and Magicians....what's this all about?
[/quote]

It's a long story that is probably better left undiscussed...
Message: Posted by: mxray (Jan 6, 2006 01:34PM)
Silverking's post could have easily been written by me. I feel pretty much the same way. I am in awe of anyone who has great chops whether they are doing sleights or XCM.

Too bad there's an apparent rift. Like Silverking, I was initially surprised, but when people have put their heart and soul into perfecting something, and it involves a craft they are passionate about, then different theories and philosophies (and sometimes egos) are going to clash.

Guys, I really appreciate the help I have been given by both cardicians and XCM guys at this site, and hope I am not eventually pigeonholed as one or the other.
MXRay
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 6, 2006 02:30PM)
[quote]
It's a long story that is probably better left undiscussed...
[/quote]

If I hadn't wanted to know the story, I wouldn't have asked.

Why waste the bandwidth telling me that it's best left alone.......??
Message: Posted by: Jonas (Jan 6, 2006 02:45PM)
Because it will end in pointless arguing and bashing?
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 6, 2006 04:43PM)
I don't know if it will or not, but discussion is something that I engage in constantly, and that's what I'm trying to do here.

Telling me how that discussion will transpire before it's actually happened might be stopping some sort of quality information transfer.

My question was really simple, I asked what the source of the hostility was. Your posts might just be giving me my answer.
Message: Posted by: mxray (Jan 6, 2006 05:37PM)
In all fairness, I don't think he is being hostile towards you personally, I think he just has maybe been through all this before, and would rather enjoy the peace. I can relate: Over on Stanford Wong's blackjack site, every time someone posts asking about progressions, I just cringe, because I have sat through hearing the "progressions vs. counting" flame wars so many times, and I am just tired of it.
So in a way, I can understand if he is trying to preserve the peace, even though your query certainly wasn't out of line.

Maybe PM him and ask him if he minds just sending you a reply with a brief rundown of what caused this ill will. He might decide its worth relating it to you, just to help keep the peace on the page....or maybe not. But either way, you may have bridged the rift a little. I certainly can't hurt.
MXRay
Message: Posted by: Driver (Jan 7, 2006 01:53PM)
Some people bashed some people and the other people got mad and bashed back so everyone is a basher and half of the people get banned from numerous places. People go to forums to bash and they argue about the people they learn from and about material and who created it. People argue about what looks good and what looks bad. They also have a different angling on things so they argue even more. Bash, bash, bash. And then they hate each other.

In short.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 7, 2006 02:06PM)
Thanks Driver, I actually understand exactly what you're saying, and won't pursue the issue further.

As difficult as it is to read sometimes, HandLordz or SuperHandz it is for reading about XCM.
I just get tired of all the swearing over there.
Message: Posted by: Driver (Jan 7, 2006 02:18PM)
The most hardcore Card talk in SH happens in the non-public forums. The public forums are mainly for the store, news, general discussion and battles, plus member videos and a forum for Jerry's show.

But a lot of the videos there are great.
Message: Posted by: carddealer69 (Jan 7, 2006 06:55PM)
Magicians bash flourishers and XCMers because they "juggle". XCMers bash magicians because they think they are stupid. XCMers and Flourishers bash each other because they believe in different styles. Flourishers do cuts and moves for their magic routines. XCMers do shows of nothing but XCM so their views on card manipulation are vastly different.

I do not think it will stop. I just downloaded the intro to De'vo's new death before me video and it is mucho grande worse than that little red balls song. Good video though.
Message: Posted by: daimaster (Jan 8, 2006 02:22AM)
Yeh amen card dealer. BTW did you get my PM on HL? Anyway I also downloaded the death before you video. I'm still curious why De'vo spends 30 seconds rubing lubricant on red sponge balls, but it is a cool vid anyway! Oh did you understand the whole German chocolate thing at the begining? I finally get the joke!

-Dai
Message: Posted by: Driver (Jan 8, 2006 08:40AM)
As far as I know the death before you video isn't finished and published yet.
The intro is published, but not the whole video.
Message: Posted by: carddealer69 (Jan 8, 2006 01:57PM)
There is 2 intros posted. A title intro and a movie type intro with a magician. I will not spoil it for you if you have not dl'd it yet. The rest of the video isn't out yet. HandL posted that it will be out this week.
Message: Posted by: Driver (Jan 8, 2006 04:18PM)
I didn't know there were 2 intros.
thank you.
Message: Posted by: daimaster (Jan 8, 2006 06:03PM)
Yeh Driver just goto the 16th Underground site, it's there.

-Dai
Message: Posted by: Vinnie C. (Jan 9, 2006 03:24PM)
Sometimes it's hard to tell if this guy is TRYING to sound stupid, or if he actually believes what he's saying..
Message: Posted by: Driver (Jan 9, 2006 03:50PM)
Who me? I don't understand? Am I stupid or am I just trying to sound stupid? Whos stupid?
Message: Posted by: Vinnie C. (Jan 9, 2006 03:54PM)
Daimaster.
Message: Posted by: dgiancaspro (Mar 6, 2006 10:08AM)
#include flamesuite.h
The issue is what we tech geeks call religous wars. VI is a better editor than EMACS JAVA is better than C MAC is better than Windows. LINUX is the best ... Bla Blah Blah.

Engineering 101 -- "What are you trying to do?" Choose the best tool.

I want to entertain people with magic, that's why I leave my Oboe home and pack a deck of cards instead. Now how you entertain is up to you. Do you want people to think wow fast hands .. then add a few flourishes. Do want people to say that's got to be magic ... keep the flourishes to a minimum. XCM is just that ... XCM it's not magic per say because no one thinks after you do a 27 packet sybil with a fan flip "Wow that must be Magic" they say "Wow that is amazing skill".

Just because someone choses one over the other does not make them ... stupid or less artistic or lame yada yada.

This is art people. Art has a few rules for example if your going to call yourself a magician at least one magic trick is in order and keep the interpertive dance portion to 3 minutes other than that let the audience decide. Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors for a reason.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Malakaneekeenai (Mar 7, 2006 10:49PM)
One of these days we need to sign some kind of treaty to stop all these wars.
Fortunatly it seems pretty mellow right now. We all just need to learn how to chill and be cool with oneanother.
-Mala
Message: Posted by: MetalBender (Mar 8, 2006 07:45AM)
I think part of the problem extends from younger and younger people getting into XCM and magic. When young people (And I speak from experience here, because I did it too) first get into something they like they search for it all over the internet. They find old posts that still remain from the flame wars, or disparaging posts against the other party somewhere. They read this, and think it's part of what magic or XCM is. They are confused when someone is bashing their new love. The quickest emotion to jump to from confusion (and I know this because of my training in psych) is anger. So they jump on the flame band waggon and it starts again. I'll admit right off the top that I've only been doing seriously advanced card work for a little over three years. I was a juggler before I got into magic and so XCM really apealed to me for obvious reasons. Because I had seen so many problems in the juggling world with people waring over brands I was able to step back and see how petty it was.

It is amazing to me how petty human beings can be, despite how advanced our society has become. You know it wasn't more than fifty years ago that racism was still apart of the U.S. government? I'm an U.S. citizen but I live in Toronto now and they have legalized gay marriage up here. Despite a generally accepting attitude from Canadians concerning the issue there are still hate crimes against gays. Do we as XCMers, Flourishes, Magicians, Cardicians, Mechanics, what ever you call yourself, want to contribute more hate into society? Our differences in opinion on how one should use a deck of cards is so small in the grand scheme of things that it is ridiculous that we get so worked up about it.

Here's the big thing to remember about both XCM and Magic. I think Simon Lovell said, "Being a famous magician is like being a famous gold fish collector. If someone isn't a gold fish collector they won't know who the bloody 'ell you are." I have so much respect for De'vo it's not even funny. He's a huge inspiration to my flourishes. However at the end of the day, he's still a guy like me who's just working to put a roof over his head and food in his belly. Dai Vernon was a great guy, but he didn't abolish slavery. Keep your XCM and Magic heros in perspective. All anyone on this board is a the end of the day is a famous gold fish collector.
Message: Posted by: Dredz (Mar 8, 2006 09:25AM)
Very well said metalbender. Lots of valid points. :)
Message: Posted by: Simon Lovell (Apr 13, 2006 11:55AM)
Yep the goldfish collector quote is mine ... and how true it is!

Simon
Message: Posted by: Moyle with Parkinsons (Jun 14, 2006 10:24PM)
Another magician here. I just recently bought XB and watched the whole thing last night man do I have some respect for XCMers, not to say that I didn't before but I was never exposed to how indepth it really goes.

My two cents on the XCMers versus Magicians thing?

Well first off I think this could definately be dying down because I have been in magic for about 2 years now so you could consider me fresh blood to magic and I have never heard of any war between XCMers and magicians. In fact one of my good card friends is an XCMer and has been since I met him and not a word has been said about it between us.

Regardless, I will take on board the fact that there obviously is some sort of war and say this. When I was a kid I used to jump BMX bikes, we hated Mountain Bikers because they wrecked out dirt jumps with their big wheels, we hated skateboarder because they would ruin your lines in the skate park and then blame you when you hit them and we hated bladers and mini skooter kids because they were too lame to ride a bike or a skateboard and all those groups hated us because...well actually I don't know why they hated us just because they did.

The point I am making is this happens everywhere in everthing. A ying must have its yang in other words if you can love something you must also hate something else. Well maybe to strong a word but to like something something else must be disliked. So a war like this is likely never to be resolved.

XCMers v Magicians
Superman v Lex Luther
Batman v The Penguin

The war may never end but don't let that stop you as an indvidual enjoying either art form if you choose. You should remember never to conform to the majority because of the majorities advice, live your life how you want to because ultmately the majority will not remember whose side you were on when you are gone.

Moyle
Message: Posted by: 4Jacks (Jun 15, 2006 11:35AM)
Moyle,

It got way stupider than that...

It was XCMer's v Flourishers

It's Like StakeBoarders versus BoardSkaters...

anyhoo, I think it has mostly died down now and it's safe to play outside again.
Message: Posted by: Vinnie C. (Jun 15, 2006 02:31PM)
Moyle,

That is the biggest piece of crap I've ever heared. There does NOT HAVE TO BE ANY TYPE OF WAR. A Yin does NOT have to have a Yang. :-P

But I'm sure De'vo would disagree, as he is the one who always posts his little topics in his "Playa Hata" forum and gets everything fired up...


And as 4Jacks says, it's not just "XCM'ers" against Magicians, it's basically "XCM'ers" against Flourishing, which is pretty much the SAME *** THING.

Not to mention De'vo called HIMSELF a flourisher on his website not a long time ago. :-P
Message: Posted by: rhucko1 (Jul 5, 2006 09:15PM)
If you don't like to openly display skill then don't; if you do like to openly display skill then do.

Both take time to perfect as well as both take skill. Both are forms of entertainment. One is done conspicuously and the other is done inconspicuously, but they both create a certain effect and give a certain affect on the audience.

[b]The irony here is that many XCMers/flourishers do some magic and many magicians do some flourishes.[/b]

However, there still is the possibility of doing both (i.e. some magicians are clowns too); you can choose your situations too.

Thanks,
Rich
Message: Posted by: JackScratch (Jul 5, 2006 09:25PM)
This is kinda like magicians being angry with Penn and Tellar. Most magicians weren't angry with Penn and Tellar until Penn and Tellar said that magicians were angry with them. Thusly some magicians jumped on the Penn and Tellar created Penn and Tellar hating band wagon. There is only a war if the two sides want a war.

I do have to admit, however that "XCM" has contributed greatly to the whole "I don't need no stinking script" thing, which has got to go. I don't care if you are a juggler, a ventriloquist, a magician, or a "street magician" (God I hate that title), you need to do a whole lot more than just execute difficult manuvers. Every entertainer of any kind must develope a relationship with his/her audience. This means scripting, blocking, rehearsing, and editing. I know what you are thinking, "But Jack, I don't talk in my performance, so I don't have to do all that stuff." or "But Jack, I'm not a professional, so I don't have to do all that stuff." or my personal favorite "But Jack, I'm a street magician, and we don't do all that stuff." WRONG!!!!!! Even if you are working to music, you still need to create a logical flow to your performance. Something that gives your audience a reason to watch what you are doing. As for you non pros out there, "Profesionalism, it's not just for profesionals anymore." Unless you intend to only do these things in the privacy of your bathroom with the doors locked, you have no excuse for subjecting any audience to a substandard performance. That's just plain lazy.
Message: Posted by: 4Jacks (Jul 5, 2006 10:56PM)
Actually I was thinking something more along the lines of
"But Jack, I don't give a rats butt about these people and sure as heck don't want to talk to them"

Unfortunetly, Even though I mostly agree with you, Proffesionalism is not a prerequisite in anything anymore. Entertainers do NOT have to develope relationship with their audience. Granted that is not good advise to be sucessful, But there are plenty of Professional Athletes who 20 million fans tune in to watch them hit a home run, and yet the most they can do when being interviewed is stare at the grass and answer questions as shortly as possible.

To Assume that an entertainer has to interact with thier audience is to also assume that the audience must appreciate the entertainer as a person as well as their abilities. That is simply not true. Billy Joel is my favorite Musician, but he's a drunk and married to woman 1/4 his age. Two things I pretty much view as not cool and pathetic. But he's not my favorite musician becuase of his stellar role model appeal, he's my favorite musician becuase of his music.

The same is true with Cards. I Like Cards, and I like to see people who are really good with them. Jonas is a complete jerk and murders little innocent Kittens, But he's still really good with the deck, so I watch all his videos and appreciate his talent.

De'Flare on the other hand, He's the nicest guy, he would lay down his life for a complete stranger, But he can't even do charlier sybil is more liked a sykill...


Wow, I type too much and most of that was a lie.... Jonas doesn't murder kittens, and De'flare isn't Nice...

Goodnite!
Message: Posted by: silverking (Aug 29, 2006 11:44AM)
I think an XCM'er who had read and followed the advice in Darwin Ortiz's "Strong Magic" would themselves be amazed at how much better their presentation was.

Perhaps the single biggest jump XCM can take is when somebody with the right chops creates an artistically driven 15 or 20 minute show that can really connect with laypeople.

That means not only chops, but set, lighting, music, staging, direction, etc.

Of course this person will be vilified by the XCM underground, but it won't matter because they'll be the person the general public thinks of when they think of XCM. They'll probably also be wealthy, which will give them the leeway to continue to develop their public image.

That person doesn't yet exist for the general public. For that matter, neither does XCMitself exist outside of the underground.
I'm not sure things like the Ullmen Challenges help move XCM forward.
The public doesn't respond to hooded folks meeting in torchlight in the middle of the night, they like to be amazed by a person that they can personally connect to, maybe even a person that they genuinely like.

XCM will either break out, or may segment itself into even smaller and less well known subsets of itself, becoming even more underground in the process.

Regardless, the potential for XCM is very strong. It's an amazingly visual art form that, like dice stacking, most folks have never seen before and are instantly struck with the moves as they are seeing them for the first time.

I want to see that first breakthrough XCM artist!

(P.S. Who would have ever thought that ALL of TV viewing America would ever know the names of two quick-change artists a'la "Americas Got Talent", which indicates that even the remotest of art forms can rise to the very top of the American publics collective imagination.)
Message: Posted by: Vinnie C. (Aug 29, 2006 08:34PM)
It all depends on how you present it. If De'vo plays his cards right, he has a good chance of pulling it off.

But who knows. We'll see.