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Topic: Sal Piacente's new DVD: Poker Cheats Exposed
Message: Posted by: ImpromptuBoy (Feb 1, 2006 02:28PM)
Hi Everyone.
I'm going to order this DVD immediately. It's $99, but again, it's Sal, and when you buy a product from him, you know it's quality. For all you poker players out there, and there are MANY, get your hands on this product NOW before it's too late. I'll write a review for it whenever I get and watch it.
What do you guys think of this DVD?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 1, 2006 03:48PM)
I doubt anyone's seen it yet.

Except for "mook" perhaps...
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 1, 2006 04:29PM)
You can get it for almost half price if you use one of the discount codes. I have seen it in Bluff and Cardplayer magazines. My order should go in on Friday.

Michael
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Feb 2, 2006 12:33AM)
Do you mean cheating at poker in a casino?

Doc
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 4, 2006 11:19PM)
Is there a demo anywhere for me to watch
Message: Posted by: J Wessmiller (Feb 6, 2006 09:40PM)
I got this today and what a great video! It's jam packed with 2 and a half hours of anything and everything to do with cheating. False shuffles, false deals, mucking, cold decking, marked cards, location play, collusion, shiners, hold outs, hops, stacking.......this is a great resource to add to your library. My hat goes off to Pocket Aces- this is a wonderful product!
be well,
JW
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 7, 2006 09:31AM)
Mr. Wessmiller:

Does Sal continue his tradition of providing teaching on the DVDs or is it more show than tell (ala Forte)?

Thanks!

Michael
Message: Posted by: J Wessmiller (Feb 7, 2006 04:43PM)
I'd consider it a teaching DVD. Very similiar to his first VHS tape, but much more in depth.
be well,
JW
Message: Posted by: edh (Feb 7, 2006 08:15PM)
What are you guy's refferring to. I think sal is so far the best only behind J. Bannon.!
Message: Posted by: andre80 (Feb 7, 2006 11:33PM)
Wasn't sure what Mr. Wessmiller meant by "similiar to his first VHS tape" until I did a search and found Mr. Piacente did indeed have a tape called "Cardshark Secrets". Does anybody know if this is still available and where? or is anybody be willing to part with there copy? Thanks in advance...
Message: Posted by: DerekS (Feb 8, 2006 08:09PM)
I give this product my full approval also. I think it should belong on your shelf along with Forte's series if you're into this type of work. I particularly liked the shuffle work. Andre80, check Amazon. That's where I got Sal's older vhs tape some time ago.
Message: Posted by: J Wessmiller (Feb 8, 2006 08:34PM)
Sal shuffle work is seriously amazing. His simple controls of stocks and location play are worth the price of the DVD.
be well,
JW
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 9, 2006 08:10AM)
Guys, if you want copie of Sal's VHS, just e-mail him at sal@salthehitman.com. He'll take care of ya! He did it for a friend of mine.


By the Way, this DVD ROCKS!!!!!!! GET IT!!!! I heard that from all the excitement due to this DVD that if you don't order soon, you may not get one. They are going quick. Also, they have the coolest T-Shirts and Hats too.

Now, all I have to do is learn all the moves and all the methods, practice for the next 20 years or so, then WATCHOUT!!! I'll be unstopable. At least until Sal catches me.
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 13, 2006 10:26PM)
I got my DVD set in today and watched the first one immediately. The only thing that I "didn't like" (for lack of a better term) was the pass/shift. when I got to the second one and Charlie, I was a bit disappointed. did anyone think that Charlie was all that great? Over all, I think it was a really great DVD...but I am just wondering if I am alone in my thoughts here.

Thanks!

Michael
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 13, 2006 10:27PM)
As a follow up...does anyone know why Sal removed the "live game play" that was originally advertised?

Michael
Message: Posted by: J Wessmiller (Feb 13, 2006 10:57PM)
I don't remember him advertising that, are you sure?
be well,
JW
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Feb 14, 2006 03:13AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-13 23:26, meijin wrote:
I got my DVD set in today and watched the first one immediately. The only thing that I "didn't like" (for lack of a better term) was the pass/shift. when I got to the second one and Charlie, I was a bit disappointed. did anyone think that Charlie was all that great? Over all, I think it was a really great DVD...but I am just wondering if I am alone in my thoughts here.

Thanks!

Michael

[/quote]

I just want to state for the record even though I haven't seen the DVD as of yet. What do expect the cheats to look like? What kind of moves do you expect them to have? Are you looking for fantastic magicians or what?

To a cheat all we want to know is "Can the move get the money" that's it nothing more.

Do you expect these guys to be me? I hold the title in this area because my teacher is dead and even though I might sound a little conceited I'm saying this to say don't be harsh on these other cold deckers such as Charlie because you saw me. Don't do that, these guys are legends to people such as myself and should be respected as such. It takes lots of nerve to do this move in a game and besides guys such as him paved the way for people like myself in order to learn.

Note: All of ya'll ain't great magicians and I will bet that 9 out of 10 of you haven't performed at The Magic Castle but that doesn't mean that you aren't good at what you; likewise us cheats. In our field Charlie is considered great so let us leave it at that.

Oh one more thing, you probably didn't like the pass/shift because it wasn't my Infinity Pass.

Respectfully

Doc
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Feb 14, 2006 06:12AM)
I'm just an idle bystander....and I do plan on buying Sal's DVD....however....I do expect this type of DVD to contain original thought, new moves, new thinking vs. just a rehash of old material being performed well by a good technition.

Even a good phycology discussion would be worthwhile, since there is very little good information on that. (Although it can be found)

I'll find out if there is any original thought or ideas when I buy the DVD.

For example....even though I thought the Malek DVD on Hold'em was VERY well done and professional. I did not learn anything. It was a rehash and summary of old information. Sigh :-(

I guess it all boils down to each person's experience level as to whether the information is new or creative :)
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 14, 2006 08:51AM)
Doc:

I don't want to give away too much what is on there...but just in brief...

The biggest "ugly" move was going to a hideout to move cards in and out of a game (up the short sleeve). Frankly, it was just bad. The only way it would fly the way it was shown was at a game full of blind people. Otherwise, he would get himself killed. It seemed to be an odd or ackward movement each time he did it. Even with the shirt off, he had a terrible time getting the switch...getting a card in there...getting the card out. It was just bad. I may be a newbie, but it was bad.

Theree were some other things, but I don't want to go through a detailed list in the forum.

And in all fairness, maybe it was because Charlie is retired. Maybe he was a little rusty. And I am really not trying to be negative. If it came off that way, it was not ment to. I am sure that Charlie has moves I'll never be able to attain.

As for Sal's pass/shift...the problem was the amount of cover he had with his own hands. You could see the cards "pop" from the angles that were shown. That was the only move of Sal's that I did not think was well done.

And I hope no one gets me wrong. I liked the DVD. I think it is probably the most complete DVD out there on cheating that also comes across as a "teaching" DVD. Forte's stuff covered more ground (i.e. more games) as Sal concentrated more on poker.

Doc you seem to know Charlie or who he is. Have you actually seen him work or do you know him by reputation only? I'd sure be interested to hear you comments on his cold deck. I think it could have been explained better as to how it would be employed.

Thanks Doc!

Michael
Message: Posted by: DerekS (Feb 14, 2006 09:33AM)
Doc makes some good points. A cheat does NOT have to possess unreal skills. Again, here is the misconception that cheats are in some way superior to other cardmen. This is one reason why I think a lot of magicians (and for the record I am not a magician) think these types of dvds are boring. People need to understand that cheats are interested in money. Do you really think they care that their moves aren't extremely flashy? If they walk away with the money, that's what matters. Now, I have Sal's new dvd and personally I think it's great. I've posted this before I believe but Forte's influence on Sal is very clear. People praise Forte's series (as they should) but I don't think enough credit is given to Sal. In fact, a lot of the material can be found on both of their series. Anybody, yes I mean anybody, could devote time to practicing this art (ALOT of time if you plan on doing this for a living or in tough company) and make a lot of money simply from owning Sal's dvd or the Forte series. I don't know how people can make a complaint based on how a classic pass is performed. What about the elevator pass that both Sal and Forte do in their videos (and is described in Buckley's Card Control)? That's a good move, at the very least one with potential. My point is to take note of the better methods that are exposed. To end this post, I feel I need to comment on the remarks made regarding Charlie. In a way, I wish the live cheating footage would have been included. Why? The point of that footage would have been to show that real cheats aren't these people that have the unreal skills I mentioned at the beginning of this post. Of course there are exceptions, Doc being one of them in the field of cooler moves as well as some other areas. Not to mention, Charlie's moves weren't "bad." They would pass in many games. His cooler move was done smoothly, even though it wasn't the most creative switch. Charlie's moves fit the games he played in, and in the end he walked out with the money. End of story.
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 14, 2006 10:27AM)
Everybody has an opinion. The funny thing is ALL of these moves were done in front of the camera where there is NO misdirection. NO way to turn the burn away from the mechanic. In a "real life" scenario, one could get away with a ton more just by implementing any kind of diversion or specific body language above and beyond the moves themselves. It doesn't take much.
I've seen real footage of guys pulling this stuff off and it's BLATANT the way they implement these moves, but nobody at the table sees a thing. It's only caught by the camera. Guys actually riffle shuffling and then pulling the deck apart and shuffling again. THE CARDS NEVER TOUCHED EACH OTHER!!!! It's hilarious to watch as a magician, but it's the facts of life.
These "cold deckers" and "mechanics" don't do it for entertainment. They do it for the money! Mess up in this forum and you could end up hurt or worse. Mess up in our world, someone just yells "I know how you did that!"
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 14, 2006 11:22AM)
I am in no way trying to say that Sal or Charlie should have any sort of flashy moves like a magician or someone into XCM would. Not at all. But, my comments concerning Charlie and the holdout device in the short sleeve stands...and I still have not seen anyone that has seen the DVD address it directly.It was bad. It was drawing attention to himself. He could not any any way (even with the shirt removed) smoothly (or even remotely smoothly) get the card into or out of the device. It flat would not fly any place. I agree with BAH that there is no opportunity to get away with misdirection and the like on the tape. But in this particular case, it still would not have worked. To be critical of what one sees is not necessarily being negative about it. I throughly enjoyed the DVD. for me, I certainly got my moneys worth out of it and am very glad that I bought it. But, just like when Mr. Wessmiller posted his video clip tribute to erdnase on this site for us to look at and comment on. Some folks are going to point out what they liked, others are going to point out what they didn't...or issues that they saw. It does not mean that the people are being negative towards Mr. Wessmiller when they make critical comments. Again, I am sure that Charlie has skills that I can only aspire to. And to pull off his work under fire is something not too many folks would even be willing to think about...much less do. But none of that makes his demonstration of that holdout device any better. One need not be an AKC certified judge to recognize a mutt walking down the street.

I too wish the cheat footage would have been left in. I really enjoyed that on Mr. Wessmiller's DVD. While you could burn him and "see" some of the moves he was making, you could still tell that they were done with enough skill that they would work under most circumstances.

And I am not trying to say that all of Charlie's moves were "bad". The hideout move was. The cooler deck was good. But I think it needed a better explaination. Obviously, anyone to the left or right of him would be all over it. How it was worked into the game or an example of that would have fit in really well there I think.

I really think some of you folks are confusing critical comments with negative comments. So that we are clear:

#1. I thinght the DVD was quite good. I own a lot of material on this topic and I would go so far as to say that I think it is probably the most complete presentation of poker related cheating that is out there. I especially like how he relates the moves to more common poker games now. Five card is not played near as much as it once was. To relate the moves to Hold'em, Omaha and 7 stud was a nice change of pace.

#2. For the info contained, I thought the price was good...especially since I had one of the discount codes that got me a little reduction in the listed price.

#3. I think Sal is extremely talented. This is not the only product of his that I own. Sal most certainly has skills that I never will have. I hope to see more and more info from Sal in the future.

#4. I am willing to take Sal at his word that Charlie is a talented and real cardsharp who made money from his under fire work. And I am sure that Charlie has skills that I will never have.

#5. Sal's company has great customer service. Dee was a pleasure to order through and work with and the shipping on the order was very fast.

#6. I would hate to play cards against Sal's daughter!

With all of that being said, if we are to continue the conversation, let's stick to what I actually said and not what other people think I said or what they think I ment. For those that have seen the DVD and have commented, do you really think the hideout move was that good?

Thanks for the comments.

Michael
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 14, 2006 11:42AM)
Well said Michael. I'm sure that Sal would like to see what you have written, and would definately be complimented by your words.

PS You're right, never paly cards against that girl!

PM me and we'll talk more.
Message: Posted by: DerekS (Feb 14, 2006 12:02PM)
Meijin,
Regarding the hold out move, you stated "It flat would not fly any place". This statement is wrong in my mind. It largely depends on where you play. Apparently this "Charlie" was a 45 year poker cheat, so obviously the method worked for him. I myself am a college student. Would that move work with the games I play in? Yes. A lot of things work in my setting, as college kids simply do not have the knowledge that I have. Nobody here would even consider the possibility of a second deal. My point is that it depends on who/where you're playing with/at. From a critical view, I don't think the move is bad if not abused. The action is strange if done multiple times as he explained, but itching your arm is not unusual at all, not to mention when wearing a short sleeved shirt.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 14, 2006 01:33PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-14 07:12, Expertmagician wrote:


For example....even though I thought the Malek DVD on Hold'em was VERY well done and professional. I did not learn anything. It was a rehash and summary of old information. Sigh :-(

[/quote]

With all due respect, the product wasn't really targeted towards you, but towards poker players. In this regard, the information presented in Malek's DVD is invaluable, particularly the sections on marked cards and proper shuffling and dealing. Even so, I'd say 95% of magicians are clueless on the latter also, so this is also helpful. The information presented was contemporary--no classic passes or draw poker moves.

Not to mention the production values just blow away everything else in the genre.
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 14, 2006 03:14PM)
DerekS:

I think your comments need to be addressed from a few perspectives.

So, the move in question would work in your game. What, exactly, does that prove? It is like I tell folks about playing poker [on the square]...simply winning a hand is no indication of how well you played the hand or how good a decision you made. Sometimes you get lucky. But, over time, bad moves and bad decisions will make you go broke. I certainly agree that certain moves will work in certain games or circumstances. In some games that I play, an overhand shuffle will not get a second glance. In other games, they will tell you immediately that a table riffle that follows the riffle/box/strip type of routine that you see in a casino is all that they allow. In some games, you could get away (once) with not offering a cut to the guy on the right. In other games, they will call it a misdeal right there and start the hand over.

In the case of the hideout move done by Charlie though, I stand by what I say. And it has nothing to do with how many times he showed the move. It has to do with the following reasons:

#1. When he cops a card out of his hand to move up to the holdout device (to either switch it or stash it), look at the position of his hand. He has the card in a "death grip". there is nothing natural about it at all.

#2. When he gets the card to the holdout device, he does not make the move look like anything. Do you really think he looks like he is scratching something on his arm there?

#3. Also when he gets there, it takes him "forever" to either make the switch or get the card in the device. Leaving himself in that position draws attention to himself.

#4. When bringing the stashed card back to his hand on the table, he again has the card in a very un-natural "death grip" looking hand position.

So, he could probably get away with the move once. But the idea with the holdout is to use it through out the game when the opportunity presents itself. Even amongst the slowest crowd that I play with, after him doing that a couple of times, something is going to be said about it. It is just too un-natural and draws way too much attention to himself. Even with the shirt off demonstrating the move, Charlie has a hard time with it. At one point, he has to make 3 attempts to get the card into the device and after he does, it is a bit askew and with a short sleeve over it would be sticking at a very bad angle for him.

Sal say that Charlie is a pro (albeit retired), so I take him at his word. As I have said before, maybe he is a little rusty due to being retired. They never said that the hideout was his best move. So, maybe he was demonstrating it. I remember a thread I read that involved Doc. He was talking about a particular move. He said it was not something he concentrated on and that he could do it or show someone how to do it, but don't expect it to be of a high enough standard that it would fly in a real game. Maybe the same is true here. But, I still stand by my earlier comment. the move is just plain bad. And repeated use of it with the same group of people over the course of a game would not fly. Combine winning the hand every time he makes that ackward move and someone is going to catch on sooner or later.

But...that is just my opinion.

Michael
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 14, 2006 03:20PM)
Expertmagician:

If you are looking for something totall new or revolutionary on Sal's DVD, then I would suggest that you save your money. Even as much of a relative newbie as I am, I did not see anything new or revolutionary on the entire thing. I saw some good demonstration, some good presentation, some good teaching, etc. But nothing even I would consider to be new or revolutionary.

As Mr. Z said about David Malek's DVD. This is geared and marketed towards the poker player. Here's the typical types of things you will be up against and here is what to look for so you can spot it. Again, I throughly enjoyed the DVD. I learned from it and will be for sometime (again, I am a newbie). BUt I wouldn't (and didn't) appraoch it as some sort of new and/or revolutionary expose of cheating.

Like Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun.

Michael
Message: Posted by: DerekS (Feb 14, 2006 05:16PM)
Meijin,
You stated "So, the move in question would work in your game. What, exactly, does that prove?" Well, that means the money comes home with me. Again, with cheating this is THE POINT. If you get the money, then what else matters? This is all I'm trying to tell you. This man Charlie used a move that worked in his games. Do you think he cares that others might think it looks bad? Your criticism on the move is welcome, and you justified it. I understand it isn't a move you would employ, but you should understand that he used it because it did indeed work over and over. I think it's good that you're looking at this from multiple perspectives, thought you're seeing it from primarily your own. If you want my opinion on this, I wouldn't use that move in a game. Then again, I'm not a fan of holding out in this way, or really in general. It is very clear to me why he used this move though, it won him money.
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 14, 2006 05:23PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-14 14:33, Mr. Z wrote:
Not to mention the production values just blow away everything else in the genre.
[/quote]

You obviously don't have, nor have you seen this DVD. The production quality surpasses the Malek DVDs. I really enjoyed these DVDs: explanations, definitions, demonstrations, etc. Top notch product and like the others who own it, I say well worth the money.

And as far as those who say there is nothing new on Sal's poker DVD, where have you seen location play and the formula for "juice" exposed? I would like to add those resources to my collection.
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 14, 2006 05:35PM)
Mook:

As for location play, I got some good info on that from Jim Swain.

As for the juice formula, his was fairly simple and I am sure he knows others that he did not include there. I think a good web search could get you roughly the same information he presented there.

Michael
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 14, 2006 05:38PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-14 18:23, mook wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-02-14 14:33, Mr. Z wrote:
Not to mention the production values just blow away everything else in the genre.
[/quote]

You obviously don't have, nor have you seen this DVD.
[/quote]

You're right. Judging from the trailer clip, though, it appears as if Sal's was shot in his home. Malek's was shot on a Hollywood sound-stage, and all those impressive specs can be found listed on the net. Really quite remarkable.

Not to take anything away from Sal's DVD, of course.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 14, 2006 05:40PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-14 18:35, meijin wrote:

As for location play, I got some good info on that from Jim Swain.

[/quote]

Vol. 2 of GPS also.
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 14, 2006 05:41PM)
DerekS:

Again, I think you miss the point. It is not a matter of whether I "like" the move or would use the move. It is a matter of how good the move is. And by good or bad, I am referring to how well the move could be used under fire...not how flashy or nice it looks.

the point you still have not addressed is the fact that the move, as shown on the DVD could not continued to be used the way it is demonstrated. Are you honestly going to tell me that you think he could pull off that same move in the same game 5 or 6 times the way he demonstrates it on the DVD? I don't...and if you do, I have a poker game I'd like to invite you to! ;)

Look at it this way...you are playing in a hold'em game and you get an Ace set as the second card in the deck as you begin to deal. You start dealing seconds and everytime you do, you leave a hanger stickingout there. You may win that hand, but are you going to continue dealing seconds with a hanger on every card every time you attempt the move? Any move done poorly and repeatedly is going to get caught.

That's all I am trying to say.

Michael
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 14, 2006 05:43PM)
Mr. Z:

It was in the discussion of Steve Forte and GPS that the info came up as Jim and Forte have been good friends for a number of years. He even has a character in one of his fictional books that is based on Forte.

Michael
Message: Posted by: DerekS (Feb 14, 2006 05:46PM)
Meijin,
Your scenario regarding second dealing is entirely different. Obviously we have different opinions. I understand why you think this is not a good move. But what you don't understand is that this was a good move for this man because it won him money.

Do I think he could do this 5 or 6 times in HIS games? Ask him, not me. Note the emphasis on the word "his". Your posts have led me to believe you each play in vastly different settings.
Message: Posted by: meijin (Feb 14, 2006 05:56PM)
DerekS:

Maybe I am nitpicking, but I will have to go back to Charlie's section and see if they specifically say he won money with that particular move. I don't remember that. And if he did, I still say he will not have won it done the way he performs it on the DVD.

Certainly we can agree to disagree...but I would state to you again that the bottom line is not him winning money with the move.I would much rather be in a position to use a move that can be repeated, does not draw attention to me and leaves me clean to come back and take the money from these same people on a regular basis. I don't see that move as presented on the DVD as falling into that category. So, I guess we are beating a dead dog there. But I do appreciate the conversation and debate!

Michael
Message: Posted by: DerekS (Feb 14, 2006 06:55PM)
Meijin,
No hard feelings. I believe you're right in the fact that Charlie does not say he used this specific move to win money. It was my assumption. I don't think he states that he used any move specifically to win his money. I assumed he did employ the few moves he exposed, but of course I could be wrong.
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 15, 2006 01:27AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-14 18:38, Mr. Z wrote:
You're right. Judging from the trailer clip, though, it appears as if Sal's was shot in his home. Malek's was shot on a Hollywood sound-stage, and all those impressive specs can be found listed on the net. Really quite remarkable.

Not to take anything away from Sal's DVD, of course.
[/quote]

Don't really know what you're talking about, as far as the clip:
https://www.pocketacesllc.net/clip.html

Don't see any indication of where it was shot, since all it looks like is a bunch of close-ups of moves. From what I see, it could have been shot anywhere and I personally wouldn't know the difference. As far as being shot on a "Hollywood" sound stage, that doesn't make a difference to me since many "Hollywood" shows and movies are shot on-location, hence NOT on a "Hollywood" sound-stage.

But to clarify what I (and maybe others who have actually seen the DVD) meant about production value: there are awesome motion graphics on Sal's DVDs. The text on the screen identifies the moves and gives definitions of terms used. Sal says they wrote it with beginners in mind, but for all playing levels, since poker is so popular right now.

Just took another look at Charlie too. Not the smoothest with that arm band. Being a former poker dealer, I would hope that I would notice something like that, although I have seen surveillance tapes with poker cheating. Some moves were so ugly that I wouldn't have believed anyone who told me that they really happened in a casino if I didn't see it for myself. They say it takes more b@ll$ than skill to make a move though...
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 15, 2006 02:22AM)
You are Sal's #1 fan for sure. ;)
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 15, 2006 02:23AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-15 02:27, mook wrote:
They say it takes more b@ll$ than skill to make a move though...
[/quote]

Ya. Skill wouldn't hurt though, would it?
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Feb 15, 2006 03:17AM)
[/quote]

Ya. Skill wouldn't hurt though, would it?
[/quote]

My old university basketball coach couldn't drive the lane to save his life...but I would never question the value of what he had to teach me . I knew that he had ten times more experience , understanding , and knowledge than any of the players who still made a career of playing . Any player who didn't learn a play because they couldn't get past the coach's lackluster
demonstration would sorely have missed the point....I believe that is what is happening here in regards to the discussion of Charlie's handling of a hold out move.
Mr. Z
Your jibe at Mook , although made in fun I'm sure , seems a bit spurious...especially since this thread was intended to discuss the merits of Sals DVD and you chose the oppurtunity to plug David Maleks DVD . Does this make you David's biggest fan?
Dowser
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Feb 15, 2006 03:45AM)
I just want to say that reading this particular thread was fun...thank you and I also want to thank ya'll for not taking my comment as being stuck-up and conceited; I was just making a point.

Meijin I like how you speak and no matter what..."I stand by my statement." That's some powerful talking and boy-oh-boy I love you for it.

[quote]
On 2006-02-14 18:16, DerekS wrote:
Meijin,
You stated "So, the move in question would work in your game. What, exactly, does that prove?" Well, that means the money comes home with me. Again, with cheating this is THE POINT. If you get the money, then what else matters? This is all I'm trying to tell you. This man Charlie used a move that worked in his games. Do you think he cares that others might think it looks bad? Your criticism on the move is welcome, and you justified it. I understand it isn't a move you would employ, but you should understand that he used it because it did indeed work over and over
[/quote]

For the record we gamblers may can do a pass/hop 5 different ways but for our life we will only do a particular variant. You may do an ugly move that I don't like and it gets the money every time you do it but I won't because I'm uncomfortable doing it.

Bottom line I said that to say this, maybe that particular variant is all Charlie knows how to do. Us cheats are not exposed to magicians like yourselves who can help us perfect our moves like ya'll are helping me so these guys go out into the world with ugly moves that were taught to them by some other hustler and they think that they are doing the move great.

I told ya'll how I was deceived by the magician's writing gambling books etc. and when I went into the world of gamblers I found out exactly what Meijin is trying to explain to ya'll without trying to be too critical but still being honest; these guys are horrible. Some of them have their specialty but their other moves are wanting….

Doc why are they horrible? BECAUSE YA'LL WAS NOT THEIR TEACHERS.

Doc why are you an exception? BECAUSE YA'LL WERE MY TEACHERS AND STILL IS AND I'M PROUD TO LET THE WORLD KNOW IT.

Ya'll magicians are very critical analyzing everything and this is what made me what I am today. As a magician (I used to be) I couldn't come before my teachers doing garbage moves because I was sent back home to practice that move until I had it; ya'll didn't take any shorts and I’m glad you didn’t. This is how ya'll trained me while making me think and work out things. For the record, I love ya'll for that and that extra push. Thanks.

I Shouldn’t Say This But I Will

In my heart I feel that even though I was amongst the Best Of The Best and ONLY STEVE FORTE BEAT ME OUT to me magician’s such as Darwin O., Andrew W., Damien N., Jason E., Paul W., Richard T., Allen A. Ross B., Glenn B., Gene M., Wesley J., Ian K., Jeff W., Dennis B., and Igor and my student Andrei are the real cheats that I look up to. Craig you’re up and coming.

For the Record and don’t get me wrong on this…I’m not taking anything away from Sal P. and Rod the H. because we all have our specialties and even though they are getting groomed by the master himself over all the above named magicians really need to be patted on their back for their achievement(s) in this area. My hat goes off to them.

I guess I’ll get some slack about this later on (I ****ed some people off) in the near future but I was great before I met anyone and will continue to get better especially with the help of ya’ll here magicians and…if the Lord is willing.

Again, thanks for not taking my previous post the wrong way.

Respectfully,

Signed

The Doctor

P.S. Meijin “My Statement Still Stand” is only suppose to better the individual not belittle them and as I see it you’re uplifting Sal’s video but pointing out things that particular individuals need help in and there is nothing wrong with that.

Friends Never Lie To Friends.
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 15, 2006 07:13AM)
Allrighty noww.. Just a stupid(?) question.. Where to get this DVD? Or is it not released in public? :)
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 15, 2006 09:10AM)
http://www.pocketacesllc.net
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 15, 2006 12:38PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-15 04:17, The Dowser wrote:
Mr. Z
Your jibe at Mook , although made in fun I'm sure , seems a bit spurious...especially since this thread was intended to discuss the merits of Sals DVD and you chose the oppurtunity to plug David Maleks DVD . Does this make you David's biggest fan?
Dowser
[/quote]

Someone poo-pooed Malek's DVD earlier in the thread, so I felt the need to throw my .02 in.

I'm a fan of both Malek and Sal, and have been friends with them for years.

How do you like them apples? :)
Message: Posted by: Jason Simonds (Feb 15, 2006 02:57PM)
How would this dvd be for a beginner/intermediate card guy who's interested in cheating routines?

Thanks!
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Feb 16, 2006 04:10AM)
I realise this thread is devoted to Sal's new DVD and what I am about to say is off topic. However, I do think a slightly different perspective on cheating is in order here. Interestingly, Doc's top of the pops list is composed mainly of magicians who do not cheat and rely on sleight of hand in there performances. From a magicians point of view, these gambling demo DVD's are invaluable because they show how to execute gambling moves at a high level of expertise. They provide a repertiore of moves that can be incorporated into a variety of gambling themed demonstrations which amaze and entertain.

Cheating is a different kettle of fish. Its a world of complicated variables. You need to choose the type of game you wish to cheat in. Then the environment has to be researched with questions like, is this a loose private game, what are the guys playing in such a game like etc, what are the house rules? Is there a professional dealer/s, when are they rotated, how long is a deck of card kept in play before its replaced by a new deck, is there camera security etc. Once a game is scouted out in this fashion the cheat would need to decide which tools would best suit the job in hand. In my opinion, sleight of hand is likely to be a lesser choice in this regard and other gimmicks such as the use of paper etc might be less risky. There is also the possibility of working with a partner which opens up some excellent strategies for peeking and collusion play that is almost impossible to detect.

I'm sure sleight of hand does have a place in cheating with some types of games but I suspect it is more limited than we magicians like to think. Here is a quote from a book on Card Sharping....

"The low class sharp relies almost entirely upon forms of sleight of hand to deceive.....there are some tricks and dodges which are practiced by even high class cheats. The rule is however, that sleight of hand is to a great extent obsolete; at least among those who seek to swindle really good card-players."

Can anyone guess the book and when it was printed?

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: in flames (Feb 16, 2006 11:49AM)
Hey guys,

Does anyone know anyone else that carries this DVD? Sal's site doesn't ship to Canada.

I appreciate it!
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Feb 16, 2006 12:17PM)
I've a question. Was Sals dvd shot in surround sound using the IMAX technology? I wonder only because some seem to think it 'blows away' the quality of production in the Malek DVD. At best one can say it is at the same level of quality but to blow it away? Sorry, that isn't likely. Another thing, from what I read (sorry, I've seen Sals work before, I'm not rushing out to buy any more) this dvd instructs on how to do the moves used by some to cheat or that can be used in a demo. Maleks work is for the avid player to become aware of the methods used in cheating, it isn't a 'how to' project. If you want to learn moves don't go with the Malek, get Sals I guess or perhaps Weapons of the Card Shark. Lastly I wouldn't bet that Sal would claim to even remotely have the skills of Malek.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 16, 2006 02:01PM)
Sal's DVD is meant to help those playing the game be more aware of the methods used to cheat. In casinos and more likely private games.
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Feb 16, 2006 03:01PM)
Okay, and folks who have seen both Sals and Maleks believe Sals to be far away superior? Difficult to believe that could be the case.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 16, 2006 04:39PM)
Ever seen Sal's DVD? Alright then, maybe you should watch it. Then form an opinion. Personally, I think Maleks stuff is okay but I like Sal's better. You see, I'm able to form this opinion (personally) because I've seen both.
The the whole point here is to talk about what we've seen, and then give our opinion. Not to just say... "I've seen Malek's stuff and it's better blah, blah, blah." Especially when you havent seen Sal's newest endeavor.
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Feb 16, 2006 07:08PM)
I'm sorry, please clip and paste where I formed an opinion about Sals poker video. I believe I asked if it was instructional or informational and that was about it. I did question if the quality of the production, meaning the filming, editing, and sound, really 'blows away' the Malek work. I think this was asked clearly enough. You see, considering the extremely high production levels of Maleks work someone claiming it was blown away means one of two things, either the individual making the statement doesn't know what he is refering to or the rest of the statements concerning the product are also to be questioned. I've seen reviews here written as if they were reading back the ads.

Here is a simple question for you Bah. Does Sal introduce methods of how decks are marked that are not addressed by Malek? Does Sal have brave new forms of glimpsing? Are his shiners shinier? Or is it that Sal is better known amongst the magical masses than Malek is and thus has a larger following where as Malek has never pursued such a following? Lastly The Doctor has listed a number of very talented cardmen, to imply they all have ever cheated isn't correct nor fair to these gentlemen and it is missing some folks.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 16, 2006 09:44PM)
Not to argue the Docs listed cardmen. That's not the point. They are all great in they're own right. But if it's copying and pating you want, you wrote:


"Another thing, from what I read (sorry, I've seen Sals work before, I'm not rushing out to buy any more) this dvd instructs on how to do the moves used by some to cheat or that can be used in a demo. Maleks work is for the avid player to become aware of the methods used in cheating, it isn't a 'how to' project. If you want to learn moves don't go with the Malek, get Sals I guess or perhaps Weapons of the Card Shark. Lastly I wouldn't bet that Sal would claim to even remotely have the skills of Malek."


I pretty much take that as your opinion.That's what I was commenting on.
Now, for what Sal covers in his DVD compared to Malek's maybe you should buy it and find out for yourself. Obviously, you already have an opinion, now all you need is the basis on which to form it.
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Feb 16, 2006 09:52PM)
Actually that was a question because some of the 'reviewers' commented on how the instruction was on the video. If it was instructional it would be a different style than Maleks which is informational. This isn't rocket science. As for the statement that Malek is a superior card worker I would say that there is the potential that Forte may be, or may not be, better than Malek at gambling moves, I don't think that question will be answered. I would think that if you asked Sal, regardless of his abilities, he would tip his hat to Malek. Since Sals DVD is informational and I doubt he shows marked cards or how to detect them in any way different than Malek then it would be a waste of money now wouldn't it? The same way other than a true cheat fanatic would get Maleks if they have Sals (Maleks is a three DVD collection by the way, I'm assuming Sal will have four).

Now I ask for the last time. Will someone who has seen both DVD's actually tell me HOW Sals is superior in production value. As a side note for you Salianics I found the production level on the Monte dvd to be very high. Thanks! Oh, for those who want instructional look into Weapons of the Card Shark.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Feb 16, 2006 10:19PM)
Is there promo video or a demo of this Sal Piacente DVD?
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 16, 2006 10:23PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-16 22:52, Steve V wrote:
This isn't rocket science. [/quote]

I definitely agree on that.
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 16, 2006 10:24PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-16 17:39, BAH1313 wrote:
The the whole point here is to talk about what we've seen, and then give our opinion. Not to just say... "I've seen Malek's stuff and it's better blah, blah, blah." Especially when you havent seen Sal's newest endeavor.
[/quote]

Absolutely HAVE to agree with that.
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 16, 2006 10:41PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-16 22:52, Steve V wrote:
(Maleks is a three DVD collection by the way, I'm assuming Sal will have four).
[/quote]

See now there's the problem: when you ASSume, you make an a** out of yourself.

Sal's DVD is a 2-disc set. A COMPLETE program that is 2-1/2 hours long. I doubt he even needs to come up with more than that. The menu is:

Disc 1
1. False Shuffles
2. Stacking
3. Beating the Cut
4. Peeking
5. False Deals

Disc 2
6. Location Play
7. Palming
8. Signaling
9. Marked Cards
10. Bonus Features

A. The Cooler/Cold Deck
B. Holdouts
C. Shiners
D. Chip Copping

For the production value, I'm no Hollywood production expert, but the sound and music are good. There are motion graphics identifying the moves and showing definitions of terms that beginners might not be familiar with.

I have seen Malek's DVD. As far as being instructional, Sal's DVD is in the same spirit. He goes through the moves, not to teach (although you could learn from it), but says that "the best protection is knowing how the moves are done." He said his intention is to help poker players protect themselves. (Don't know if you know this, but casinos hire him for his game protection seminars.)
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 16, 2006 10:48PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-16 22:52, Steve V wrote:
As for the statement that Malek is a superior card worker I would say that there is the potential that Forte may be, or may not be, better than Malek at gambling moves, I don't think that question will be answered. [/quote]

I and numerous others (including Malek himself) can absolutely answer that question: Steve Forte is absolutely superior. No question, no debate. Ask Malek himself and he'll tell you that he went to Forte, himself, for help with his DVDs.
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Feb 16, 2006 10:57PM)
I'm sure he would agree Forte is better. My problem is I can't see either of 'em doing anything! Dang them! Thank you for the answer to the production question. Odd it seemed so difficult for others to respond to. So it was image was clear and the sound good...doesn't sound like a 'blow out' but at least your response is honest. There seems one heck of a lot of people consulting with casino's.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 17, 2006 01:53AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-16 23:41, mook wrote:
For the production value, I'm no Hollywood production expert, but the sound and music are good. There are motion graphics identifying the moves and showing definitions of terms that beginners might not be familiar with.
[/quote]

Did you miss the last sentence? Enough about that. You'll have to see it to know what you're talking about, like BAH1313 said.

Also, there aren't many REAL casino consultants. Less than a dozen known throughout the industry. There are many people who claim to consult casinos...
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Feb 17, 2006 02:42AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-14 09:51, meijin wrote:

Doc you seem to know Charlie or who he is. Have you actually seen him work or do you know him by reputation only? I'd sure be interested to hear you comments on his cold deck. I think it could have been explained better as to how it would be employed.

Thanks Doc!

Michael

[/quote]
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 17, 2006 02:43AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-16 23:19, bishthemagish wrote:
Is there promo video or a demo of this Sal Piacente DVD?
[/quote]

This is the beginning of the DVD-
https://www.pocketacesllc.net/clip.html
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 17, 2006 02:44AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-17 02:53, mook wrote:
There are many people who claim to consult casinos...
[/quote]

And none of them have names!

So abrasive man, I think you need to relax a bit.
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 17, 2006 02:55AM)
Oh, hello David Malek's #1 fan. Thank you for the advice. I think you're right.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Feb 17, 2006 03:06AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-14 09:51, meijin wrote:

Doc you seem to know Charlie or who he is. Have you actually seen him work or do you know him by reputation only? I'd sure be interested to hear you comments on his cold deck. I think it could have been explained better as to how it would be employed.

Thanks Doc!

Michael

[/quote]

Now you are puting me on the spot here....

Ya'll want to know about retired cheats? Let me ask you a question. Who is going to pay a guy (retired cheat) at least $200,000 a year with no prior experience nor any education? Tell me how to get that job and I'll quit cheating. So on that note do you really think that he's retired?

How do an expert find a retired cheat if he's really retired and not doing anything? Duh... You only find someone if they're active and people are still talking about him. Believe what you wish but if I ever go into retirement and I will eventually when I see a sucker with money dangling out of his pocket you know that I'm going to take it (cheat him out of it).

Do I Know Him

You ask do I know Charlie. Yes and No. I know of only one white guy that can cold deck and use that device and his name is not Charlie. Have I ever met this individual? Yes and No. I have spoken to him on the phone yes but never actually met him face to face.

Is this guy good? I have to say yes. Why did his move with that device look shaky? That was not his device that he normally use. He did not want to reveal to the world what he actually use therefore he used a prototype which made his move not look so good.

Why did he do that? This guy is a real hustler and by the hustling code he is not to reveal to suckers (the world) what we really use in actual play, this is how we eat (survive) this is why he was never caught and I can vouch for that. This guy is familiar with the crew that I hang out with and yes his reputation proceeds him.

Did I see the video yet? No, so I can't comment on anything but believe me when I get the time I would love to meet up with him and get a few lessons. Did he show you his hold out outfit?

Well the Doctor still needs to go back to school and this guy is one of the teachers at the school (of Hard Knocks).


Sorry that I couldn't have been of more help but us cheats have to stick together because the magicians are telling everything they know in order to get a reputation of some sort.

Talk to ya'll later

Signed

The Doctor
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Feb 17, 2006 04:47AM)
I must say that I find Steve V's remarks on this topic to be even more spurious than Mr. Z's
I first read about David Maleks DVD from a post on the scoundrels forum by Steve V. Steve said David was voted by the genii forum to be the next most likely Vernon / Miller type...(can this be true ?! ). Then after it's release Steve plugged it in several other posts including some where he interupted other topics ( a thread by Doc Jon on the scoundrels forum and another thread about Sal's impending offering on the Genii forum as well as this very thread ). All of this would have been forgiveable in my book (entitled to your opinion and to promote the work of your friends..etc.,etc.) except for two things which now compell this response :
1) Steve interupted a thread about Sal's DVD in the Genii Forum with the comment that only friends of Sal say good things about his work . This was highly inappropriate in light your numerous posts plugging David Maleks DVD excessively as well as your own admission that you had been in steady contact with David prior to the release of His DVD's . You may have a right to your unobjective and clearly biased opinion but your house is made of glass and you shouldn't throw stones . Mr . Z's Remark in a different thread that David Maleks DVD is the best offering in game security genre yet..."even better than Steverino's" is Excessive and telling as well...unless Steverino is the name of your local gas pump attendant who also does card tricks.
2) I would probably not have voiced any dissappointment in Mr. Maleks Product at all if I had not been prompted to purchase it from Steve V's Gushing Posts . If I had simply read the advertising or the dust jacket I would see that it doesn't promise more than it delivers. I cannot say the same for the misleading posts of some clearly Biased parties . As far as your stated suggestions and inuendo's about Sal's friends hyping his work...RIGHT BACK ATCHA !
Being in the gaming industry , I've seen lots of competition and professional jealousy in the area of game security and when it gets ugly it never is a good showing for anyone . Puffing up your own chest may be forgiveable...but is deflating the other guys really fair play ?
Moving on ...my copy is still in the mail and I can't wait to discuss the specifics as honestly as I can so as to HELP anyone else who is still making a buying decision . For those who are truly serious about the subject you will get both anyway because you make it your business to know everything you can in your field.
Dowser
Message: Posted by: in flames (Feb 17, 2006 08:07AM)
Can someone give a review the DVDs?

Thanks!
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 17, 2006 08:30AM)
Bravo Dowser. Nicely said.
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Feb 17, 2006 10:51AM)
You are brilliant Dowser. Difference is I gave an actual review of the item both in writing and on the magic review show on radio I do. You would have noted that the two main points I made about Maleks product was the production level and that his delivery is like an FBI guy explaining how cheats operate. The delivery being dry. I have no problem believing that Sal is more dynamic when presenting the same information. My issue was in all the nonsense put here about the dvd Sal is on is 1) The production level blows away that found on Maleks and 2) Sal teaches how to do the cheats (Malek does not). I have asked HOW the production quality blows away Maleks, it cannot because if it is shot well and clear, the editing is clean, the graphics, if any, well done, and the sound clear and steady then the production level is good. If given a scale of 1 to 4 it cannot rise above 4. Mook, or who ever it was, gave the best answer as to the production level. It is shot well and the sound is good. He also came closest to giving an actual review of the product in question. The rest is cheerleading and "oh boy this is a great DVD and I recommend it and hope to see it some day" stuff. The information I had on Maleks product came when I was going to review it. If I'm doing a review I often will ask if there will be additional volumes, the availability (exclusive to one site or in brick and morter shots etc), and perhaps questions about credits given or not given. Maleks DVD was, at that time and may still be, the best source on information on poker cheats as related to Hold'em. I have a problem with production levels, I expect them to be high. If I see a patch of blue pop up due to bad editing or if the sound is off it doesn't get a positive statement. Good detective work Dowser, you found a review I made public....you are one bright fellow.

As for Sals DVD I asked about the production level which has nothing to do with him anyway, it has to do with the people who made the dvd who is Magic Makers as they did the Monte DVD. I also stated that the production level on the Monte dvd is very high, Dowser, jog over and find my review of that and you'll note that to be true. My main problem with Sals dvd was more with the marketing of it (the monte) because in the beginning Sal mentions he is going to explain how it is done the way his father explained it to him in order to keep folks from getting taken. That is true. As a source of learning a routine around the Monte it isn't a great source, but that is how it was marketed, not by Sal, by Magic Makers. Will I go out and buy Sals DVD on poker? No, I already have access to information on how marking, glimpses, cheats, etc take place. If I had Sals I wouldn't feel the need to see what Malek put out, that wouldn't be true for those really into it then they would want every source. Now from an 'informational' stand point the monte dvd was very good. Based on the quality level of that and that Sal presents the info in an entertaining way I would think that his poker DVD is likely very good. Likely...that is because I didn't see it, much like many of those touting it seem to have not seen it. It is my hope that Sal sells thousands of them. Got it folks? I sure hope so. If any further confusion exist please feel free to let me know.

Oh, as for the consulting to Casino's I can think of ten people who do it off the top of my head. Again, amazing work on finding reviews written by a reviewer...amazing.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 17, 2006 01:22PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-17 11:51, Steve V wrote:
As for Sals DVD I asked about the production level which has nothing to do with him anyway, it has to do with the people who made the dvd who is Magic Makers as they did the Monte DVD. Steve V
[/quote]

Shame on you, Steve V! You should really not spread false rumors:

MAGIC MAKERS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SAL'S POKER DVD!!! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!

This DVD is produced by a company called Pocket Aces. It doesn't take much to find out that truth and you DIDN'T even do that! Now if you want to compare production values of the Monte DVD and Sal's poker DVD- again the poker is far superior.

Get your facts straight before you rant on...
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 17, 2006 01:29PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-17 05:47, The Dowser wrote:
Mr . Z's Remark in a different thread that David Maleks DVD is the best offering in game security genre yet..."even better than Steverino's" is Excessive and telling as well...unless Steverino is the name of your local gas pump attendant who also does card tricks.

[/quote]

What's your problem with me, again?
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Feb 17, 2006 04:11PM)
Mook, you poor misguided lad. I said that the MONTE was made by Magic Makers and made it extremely clear that I've not seen the poker dvd and was guessing that since Sal did work with MM that he may well still be doing so and since the quality was good on that dvd it would likely carry over. Since you now say it wasn't made by MM I retract my assumption that the quality is good since I've nothing to measure it by. Since you seem to be the one thinking the production level is now 'far superior' can you please define that? If you check the thread I only ask how it can 'blow away' and be 'far superior' to one of the better produced dvds. Thank you.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 17, 2006 06:19PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-17 11:51, Steve V wrote:
the people who made the dvd who is Magic Makers as they did the Monte DVD.
[/quote]

Those are YOUR words and in English, most people can clearly see that YOU misguidedly and falsely stated that this was a Magic Makers production. And since you admitted that you have NOT seen both DVDs, not sure you can figure out who is misguided.

I HAVE SEEN BOTH MALEK'S AND SAL'S DVDs. You have not. You cannot offer anyone an informed opinion on what you have not seen. Those whose have also seen both are entitled to their opinions, as I am mine. It is a matter of opinion on which product is superior. I still stand by my opinion: Sal Piacente's "Poker Cheats Exposed" is the best poker DVD product that I've seen in regards to content, production, and entertainment value.

Now on a final note to you, with the Hollywood sound stage, Imax chatter, I ask you these questions:

1) Who buys a poker dvd BECAUSE it was shot on a Hollywood sound stage?
2) Who has an Imax theater in their home to appreciate the experience?
3) How many people are experts enough in audio to know the difference? I sure can't.
4) How can you tell me what the something looks like when you've never seen it yourself?

If you answered yes to #2, can I come over and experience it too?
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Feb 17, 2006 07:14PM)
Moook, don't just take the part that fits your statement. I saw that you are Sals number one fan and as such your statements are obviously slanted. I understand, when I was young I idolized Hank Aaron. I now realize why you couldn't answer and if the Sal product was a post it with the rankings of hands written on it you would have praised it. You'll note I've not made a single comment as to how good or bad the dvd is nor any statement against the production level. You, in your blind devotion, may have misread what I wrote. I actually said that since the production level on monte was good I figured this one would be...not realizing (or I admit even caring) who was behind it. I asked YOU how it looked, but now I know of the rose colored glasses so I won't bother. I'm sure Sal is the greatest magician of all time, a master of his craft, a man of his time, and potentially the savior. There...go and sin no more.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Feb 17, 2006 07:38PM)
First Mr. Z : I have no problem with you sir , in fact by reading your posts in other topics I've decided that I consider you to be knowledgeable...which is why I found your comment (re: Steverino) to be suspect and excessive...such a comment was unexpected from a knowledgeable guy . If it is how you truly feel then so be it . It became worth mentioning when those who posted favourably about Sal's DVD were being referred to as "Sal's Friends" or "#1 fan" implying an unobjective bias . This was unfair and unnecessary and I simply pointed out that the pot has been known to call the kettle black . Please note that my reference to your remark was only meant to support my point and the true inspiration of my post was Steve V's remark that only Sal's friends say favourable things about his work (genii forum) .
Now Steve V. : You have admitted twice on this thread (which is discussing the merits of Sals DVD) that you have no intention of buying Sals DVD . What then is the intention of your posts if not to tear down Sal and plug David Malek . As far as finding your reviews that were "already made public" I'm not sure what your referring to...perhaps your internet radio reviews which I've never heard or read . I've presented my point based only on those remarks which I've already mentioned . However I will accept your sarcastic compliment as I am brilliant .
Was any part of your own brilliant response meant to justify pointing the finger at those who think highly of Sals work as being "only close friends" while you yourself seem to have a biased and passionate opinon of Mr. Maleks work? Is this the spirit in which you offer reviews on your internet radio show ? You mention there seems to be a lot of people with an opinion on this thread who have never seen the DVD (Sal's) ....once again : the pot and the kettle . If Mr. Maleks DVD is as valuable as you say it is I'm sure it will sell exceedingly well on it's own merit without the help of misguided friend who hijacks other threads only to Pooh-poo what they haven't seen and have no intention of seeing. I loathe to participate in these arguments but I find your tactics too compelling .
Dowser
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 17, 2006 08:55PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-17 20:38, The Dowser wrote:
First Mr. Z : I have no problem with you sir , in fact by reading your posts in other topics I've decided that I consider you to be knowledgeable...which is why I found your comment (re: Steverino) to be suspect and excessive...such a comment was unexpected from a knowledgeable guy . If it is how you truly feel then so be it . It became worth mentioning when those who posted favourably about Sal's DVD were being referred to as "Sal's Friends" or "#1 fan" implying an unobjective bias . This was unfair and unnecessary and I simply pointed out that the pot has been known to call the kettle black . Please note that my reference to your remark was only meant to support my point and the true inspiration of my post was Steve V's remark that only Sal's friends say favourable things about his work (genii forum) .

[/quote]

The GPS tapes are the standard by which everything else in the genre is compared to. On that note, in terms of content, execution, and overall quality, I strongly feel Malek's series has the potential to become the new standard--it's that good, in my view. Keep in mind that the scope of Malek's project is limited to hold em, the most popular and widespread form of poker played today. While the GPS tapes contain the best record of gaming sleight of hand ever produced, in terms of overall content, they're a bit dated, as is wont to happen with the passage of time.

I'll also say that Malek's "acknowledgements" segment is one of the classiest things I've ever seen.

Lastly, the "Steverino" comment was meant to be playful. I kinda know the guy...

Again, this isn't to take anything away from Sal's DVD. My original comments only applied to production value.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Feb 17, 2006 09:42PM)
Thanks for the link mook... Looks interesting.

As to the general talk of production values - and I feel this toward every DVD/video. Who cares? Not me.

Why? Because I like watching vintage video of magicians. And most of the past greats in magic at the time they were filmed the production quality of today did not exist. This is a point as to what I feel in today’s video but it can be applied to any video of a magician in a small market such as magic.

If the production quality is bad and the magician is good and the DVD has information that is useful to me. I like the product because I buy DVD's/video to learn and I am only looking for new information or information that is useful.

If the production quality is good and the material and the magician is bad or the subject and material not very useful I consider that not a good investment. Because no production quality can save a bad performance or a bad act or a magician that is not qualified to show the subject matter.

I do not own David's or Sal's DVD's at this time - on this subject and most likely will buy both and most likely will be happy and satisfied with both products - looks like a win - win to me.
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 17, 2006 10:04PM)
Mr. Bishop,
You're welcome. Great post. I have to agree with you on all counts.
Best wishes,
Mook
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Feb 18, 2006 12:23AM)
Actually Dowser I was question the idiotic statement that the quality was so superior. I have a thing for production levels being high, I expect EVERY dvd or video to be of top quality if it made for sale. The exception being the few home made ones that were put out really to preserve someones work. A company should put out a high level product, bad sound, bad editing, not shooting material until it is right is showing a disregard for the customer. The quality statement was like someone claiming water in one persons pool is 'wetter' than in anothers. It is nonsense unless it can be defined and explained. For the last time, I never said a thing about the Sal dvd as I've not seen it, thus no comment on the content. Is someone going to actually review the freakin' thing here?
Steve V
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Feb 18, 2006 09:05AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-18 01:23, Steve V wrote:
I have a thing for production levels being high, I expect EVERY dvd or video to be of top quality if it made for sale.
[/quote]
I do not think that "Television Broadcast Quality" is needed in most magic DVD‘s and video. Production Level Quality with fancy wipes from one segment to another or flashy montages of quick 30 second clips held together by music like a rock video may for a second dazzle the eye but do NOTHING to improve content.

With magic books and printed media in magic we have lecture notes. Soft cover pamphlet books held together with staples, Comb bound books and books of high quality that cost lots of money. If the content of the printed material is good and I find it useful it would not matter to me if it was written on a cocktail napkin.

I like DVD's/video for their content not eye candy.
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 18, 2006 10:24AM)
Steve V, you ask for a review of Sal's DVD but already said that you have no intention of buying it. What's the point? Most people want reviews to help guide their buying preferences. Kinda like asking a friend about a movie he or she may have seen, and then deciding to do see it after you hear them out. It doesn't make much sense to say "I'm not going to watch it,or buy it, but give me a review anyway."
Pretty much an exercise in futility isn't it? Besides, it's obvious that you are more into the technical side of productions than the actual content. I bet you're one of those people that get ****ed when the Academy Awards doesn't show who won "best sound and lighting in a motion picture."
*Who cares about the actors, show me the sound board! Hey how many pixels was this shot in? Holy crap did you see that?!! There was a shadow on the wall that wasnt there before! I bet they used actual stand ins rather than CGI, what losers.
Get the point?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 18, 2006 01:03PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-18 11:24, BAH1313 wrote:
Steve V, you ask for a review of Sal's DVD but already said that you have no intention of buying it. What's the point? Most people want reviews to help guide their buying preferences. Kinda like asking a friend about a movie he or she may have seen, and then deciding to do see it after you hear them out. It doesn't make much sense to say "I'm not going to watch it,or buy it, but give me a review anyway."
Pretty much an exercise in futility isn't it? Besides, it's obvious that you are more into the technical side of productions than the actual content. I bet you're one of those people that get ****ed when the Academy Awards doesn't show who won "best sound and lighting in a motion picture."
*Who cares about the actors, show me the sound board! Hey how many pixels was this shot in? Holy crap did you see that?!! There was a shadow on the wall that wasnt there before! I bet they used actual stand ins rather than CGI, what losers.
Get the point?


[/quote]

Oh please. That ******** rationalization is just an excuse to produce crap. By that line of logic, we could make these DVDs in the kitchen with pappy's old camcorder provided the content's good. I sure as hell ain't shelling out a nickel for it.
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 18, 2006 07:41PM)
I found this review of of Sal Piacente's "Poker Cheats Exposed" at http://www.blackjackforumonline.com

Subject : New Poker Cheating DVD Set by ArnoldSnyder on 02-05-2006 13:26

I recently had the opportunity to watch a couple of DVDs by Sal Piacente on cheating at poker. I've known Sal for many years. He's an old buddy of Steve Forte's and used to work in casino surveillance. He still does consulting for casinos, mostly on game protection. You may have seen him in that recent discovery channel documentary on cheating. I wrote a review of the DVDs (below) and told Sal he could post my review on his web site. I have no financial interest in this product.

"Poker Cheats Exposed" is a 2-1/2 hour, 2-DVD set. This is the best and most comprehensive exposé of card cheating methods—and specifically poker cheating methods—that I have ever seen. It is also the first video presentation of card cheating techniques that can be favorably compared to Steve Forte’s 1994 “Gambling Protection Series” videos.

The production quality is top notch and Sal’s explanations are as clear as can be. His skill at card manipulation is unsurpassed. In fact, what strikes you is the simplicity of the moves he demonstrates. Poker is a game where controlling a single card can often affect who wins a big pot. Sal shows how easily and invisibly a single card—or a small group of cards—can be controlled.

He demonstrates many ways that a player who is working in collusion with a crooked dealer pretty much has a license to steal. He also shows ways that players working alone, or with confederates at the table, can cheat without the dealer’s involvement. He explains the types of cheating moves players are most likely to encounter in private games, as well as in public poker rooms.

He shows many variations of false shuffles, deck-stacking, second dealing, covert signals, card marking techniques, mechanical devices, and the specific types of cheating you're most likely to encounter in both Texas hold’em and seven-card stud.

Many of the moves are performed by Sal, but he is also aided by “Charlie,” an anonymous poker player whose face we don’t see, but who admits to having made his living as a poker cheat for 45 years, never once having been caught.

Every serious poker player should get this DVD set. It’s scary. If you play high stakes poker, or if you ever play in private games, you’re making a big mistake if you don’t take the time to study the ways that professional poker cheats work.
You can purchase the DVDs online at http://www.pocketacesllc.net, or at the Gamblers Book Shop in Las Vegas.

[Arnold Snyder is the author of many books on casino gambling, and is the editor of Blackjack Forum Online, a web site run by professional gamblers.]
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Feb 18, 2006 09:22PM)
Thank you for the review, the content sounds top notch.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Feb 19, 2006 02:00AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-18 14:03, Mr. Z wrote:
[quote]


[/quote]
I sure as hell ain't shelling out a nickel for it.
[/quote]
If money is so tight , you might consider putting into practice some of the techniques available on the best resource yet available on the subject of cheating at poker ( by Sal Piacente) .
Just a thought ... better luck . : )
Dowser
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 19, 2006 05:33PM)
Dowser, once again, you've said it all.
Message: Posted by: J Wessmiller (Feb 20, 2006 12:56AM)
Why is it every DVD review turns into an all out brawl that goes totally off topic? The DVD is great- I've seen it myself and think it's a great resource.
be well,
JW
Message: Posted by: in flames (Feb 20, 2006 05:03AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-20 01:56, J Wessmiller wrote:
Why is it every DVD review turns into an all out brawl that goes totally off topic? The DVD is great- I've seen it myself and think it's a great resource.
be well,
JW
[/quote]
Exactly!

I hope this doesn't turn out as another Flourishes vs. XCM
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Feb 21, 2006 02:28AM)
My copy finally came in the mail yesterday ...Mook are you sure these are only two and a half hours long ? It seems like I spent the whole day watching them . This 2 DVD set is by far Sals best showing yet.
The DVD's seem to address the same Market and purpose as the David Malek DVD so comparison seems inevitable, especially since the Malek DVD seems to be Sal's leading competitor in this genre up to this point . Sal's DVD is a sharp , professional and "way cool " product , The production quality is great , however I would not argue it against the production quality of the Malek DVD .
Sal's DVD's start slow and gradually become fantastic. I would say that the Poker Cheats Exposed DVD is a more complete offering than the Cheating At Hold 'EM DVD but in fairness will add that I assume David chose to forgoe techniques that are perhaps less commonly used (overhand shuffle,etc.) ... I have read here that there are other volumes of the Malek effort still to come so my assertion that Sal's is a more complete offering on the topic only holds for now and the future remains to be seen .
As far as whether this is a teaching tape or not...seems harder to answer honestly than I expected . I have already said that the stated purpose of both Malek's and Piacente's DVD's are similar , however , Sal's goes into detail with multiple showings of most techniques and a rank layman watching these DVD's with cards in hand could come away quite hazardous as an opponent at the table .Having said that , you will not learn the specific techniques that will enable you to toss seconds ,centers and bottoms etc. but in many cases (location play and some riflle shuffle techniques) Sal's explanations shown from multiple angles are all that anyone will need to learn .
There are several items that I believe have not appeared on video before and some that I believe have not appeared anywhere before and I am suprised that Mook did not mention them . I will just name a few and since I am a life student of this kind of work , I welcome any references that may contradict my assertion . As I type this I can remember at least six methods that Sal gives for the falsification of the "casino wash" . Speculation as to how this is done was the topic of a lengthy thread on this forum some time ago . Now you can see for yourself...Sal discusses how to control a single card , a small group of cards , and even the whole order of cards during a wash procedure . He even tips methods for culling cards during a fair wash . Sal's Riffle Shuffle work on these DVD's is not only excellent but the information and techniques,and level of explanation given on this topic is unprecedented .This was the second most exciting part of the DVD's for me...the most exciting part being "Charlie" which I will discuss in a moment . Although it has been correctly asserted in this thread that other references for location play exist , I believe "Location Play" is not one single technique and on this DVD there are many specific location plays that have never before been explained on video ... for example a location play from a "casino wash" . Charlies cold deck protection tip is completely new as well and this is the only DVD where you can see a real hold out table (from the collection of Steve Forte) in action with the workings exposed from the top , underneath , and even inside the table with all the mechanics displayed... WOW !
Regarding the Juice formula and it's use : This has not been described on video before and Sal gives the Straight , No Nonsense Dope on this topic . Sal also exposes counterfiet Bee cards that have recently come to light which were factory marked .There is a lot here that is unavailabe elsewhere and has never been explained before . I am a fan of Sal , but these DVD's are far better than I had hoped .
Now let's talk about "Charlie" . I don't remember how old he is reported to be but there are some times when he is just talking ( not demonstrating anything ) and just holding a deck and his hands have that slieght tremble that some older people have . I'm undecided if this was due to age or due to the nerves associated with the fact that a "non-celebrity" real life poker cheat is exposing his technique to untold amounts of people . At any rate it was no hindrance to his execution of the cold deck which must clearly have been his money technique based on his ability with it . This move was ultra smooth and had a wonderfull retention to it ... Untill Doc releases his cold Deck techniques (unlikely) this is the best available on video yet . I felt the explanation to the hold out move was choppy as did others on this thread but I think the initial demonstration ( before the explanation) serves to show how quick and deceptive this technique can be ...even with a slieght hesitation .
Sals execution of the hop is very smooth and worth seeing if you want to see how this is SUPPOSED to look , best I've seen yet - complete with well timed shade .
As far as new kinds of marking : Sal's DVD is the first to expose flex work...Very Cool !
Sal's first video bears mentioning here as well as it contains a stacking technique not revealed anywhere else called "setting up threes". I've heard a rumor that Sal' never received a dime for that video and is in no way connected to it's sale...if it is still available ,I think it was called Secrets of card cheats exposed or something like that . Unfortunately I didn't see some of the techniques from that earlier video ( setting threes for example) on these DVD's but those techniques were not specific to Hold'em or Omaha . Never the less : These DVD's have a significant amount of material not available on any other video or DVD and if you have any interest in the topic of cheating at poker (and incedently would like to see footage of a real hard core poker cheat "Charlie" ) then I can tell you that this set is a must have ...and in my opinion any honest person who watches it will be forced to agree .
Dowser
p.s. I don't see how Sal's daughter can ever get a game after this . : )
Message: Posted by: in flames (Feb 21, 2006 07:19AM)
Thanks bro! Excellent review!
Message: Posted by: mook (Feb 21, 2006 09:59AM)
I second that!
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 21, 2006 04:06PM)
Dowser, nice review. I am verbally challenged when it comes to such things and I think you did the DVD justice.
Message: Posted by: Tradamus (Feb 23, 2006 09:48PM)
Sal's no Richard Turner, I say if you want to learn...Learn from the best
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 23, 2006 10:40PM)
Tradamus, hmmmm.... could be a code name for... Richard Turner??!!!
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 23, 2006 10:42PM)
So, Tradamus have you seen the DVD?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 24, 2006 12:40AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-23 23:42, BAH1313 wrote:
So, Tradamus have you seen the DVD?
[/quote]

Kind of defeats the point of your previous post, doesn't it? :P
Message: Posted by: Tradamus (Feb 24, 2006 01:18AM)
Does it matter
Message: Posted by: BAH1313 (Feb 24, 2006 07:52AM)
Relax Z---- just messin about.
Message: Posted by: Silly Walter the Polar Bear (Feb 24, 2006 02:31PM)
Sal is just so awesome with cards. He and Fernando Keops should lecture together but the problem is that a convention center would explode because that level of awesomeness cannot be contained in a building.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Feb 24, 2006 02:49PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-24 15:31, Silly Walter the Polar Bear wrote:
Sal is just so awesome with cards. He and Fernando Keops should lecture together but the problem is that a convention center would explode because that level of awesomeness cannot be contained in a building.
[/quote]
Mabee you should join them too so it could be more awesome..lol
Message: Posted by: silverking (Feb 27, 2006 12:22PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-23 22:48, Tradamus wrote:
Sal's no Richard Turner, I say if you want to learn...Learn from the best
[/quote]
Big help.
Message: Posted by: CardShark2004 (Jun 15, 2006 12:15PM)
How does one go about getting a discount code
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jun 15, 2006 12:33PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-24 15:31, Silly Walter the Polar Bear wrote:
Sal is just so awesome with cards. He and Fernando Keops should lecture together but the problem is that a convention center would explode because that level of awesomeness cannot be contained in a building.
[/quote]

Keops is the worse performer I've ever seen.
Message: Posted by: magician8 (Jul 14, 2007 08:22PM)
I'll try to save some money for I really like Sal ,however I think it is a bit overpriced.




A.S.E