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Topic: Exposure....
Message: Posted by: Dr Marvin (Feb 25, 2006 09:47AM)
It seems like we as magicians hate exposure, but then I click on to the Street Magic section here, and people seem to be wanting to pick apart tricks by Angel, Blaine, or Cyril. "They ask were can I get that?" or "How did he do that?" and then we will respond with "He uses a TT and then does this move or that move...etc.." I think that if we want other people to respect us as artists and not expose us then we need to first start to respecting other magicians first. I know that you just want to learn, but imitating what another person has done is not helping you or your art. If you’re a musician you don’t play other peoples songs, you come up with your own. And if you a painter you just don’t paint other people's paintings, you come up with your own. So please stop exposing!

Dr Marvin
2-25-06
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2006 09:54AM)
You are forgeting one thing in your equasion.

The huge majority of people on this board do NOT perform magic for a living. They are magic "enthueasists". (spelled that one way wrong).

They look at things a lot different. It does not make them bad or good or right or wrong, just a different reason for learning what they learn.Sometimes it is more about "knowing" than actually doing.

Just my 2 cents.
Message: Posted by: FatTony (Feb 25, 2006 11:29AM)
In a real life scenario, when has "exposure" from these boards ever made a difference in your daily life, magical or not? Has it really affected anything that you do?
Message: Posted by: Dr Marvin (Feb 25, 2006 11:47AM)
Saying exposure is wrong in this case, but right in another is contradicting yourselves. Exposure is exposure, no matter how big or little it is! So I guess the masked magician specials were good too!

Dr Marvin
2-25-06
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Feb 25, 2006 12:12PM)
What about when a laymen walks into a magic store and asks to buy one of those "plastic thumb thingies" he's heard about? The dealer pulls out a Thumb Tip and sells it to him. BAM! Major exposure!

Whatever will we do? After all, "exposure is exposure."
Message: Posted by: FatTony (Feb 25, 2006 12:13PM)
I agree, Dr Marvin. Exposure is not a good thing, regardless of how big or little. Good point.

But, it will always be around. No matter how much we complain.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2006 01:48PM)
Reminds me of the old joke about the women who won't date the guy.

he says how about a million dollars and she say sure. He says how about 10? and she says "what do you think I am, a lady of the evening?". to that the guy responds "we already know what you are, I am just negotiating a price!"

Magic shops strike me as being in this catagory. Sorry. I worked one for 10 years. The ONLY qualification for buying secrets, is to have enough money. Plain and simple. Sorry dealers but you are in the business of selling secrets to anyone willing to buy.

So when exposure is yapped about we need to start looking pretty close at ourselvs.

How many of our books are in Waldenbooks? Mark Wilson course sure is. Magic for Dummies and so forth. Forget the masked magician. OTHERS have exposed longer than he has and for less money.

So I guess we have to define "even a little exposure" now don't we?

What do we do have tests for magic sales? What about this board itself? Lots of exposure here too.

The solution to me is to realise magic is about entertaiment, and NOT about the secrets we keep. Entertain an audience and they will be forever greatfull.

Also stick with skill tricks and keep away from marketed effects and people will not really know what it is you are doing.

Just food for thought.
Message: Posted by: CasualSoul (Feb 25, 2006 02:59PM)
Magic is a hobby for me, but it is a hobby I take seriously. When it comes to exposure, I think, for the most part, forums like this one actually do a reasonably fair job at preventing exposure as most magicians adhere to the "Code". Sure, if you have spent any time shopping at an on-line magic store you will be able to figure out what a TT is, but most people do not want to invest the time into deciphering all the lingo to put the pieces together to understand what we're even talking about on these forums. Even people who have seen a TT in their children's magic kit wouldn't know what a TT was, how powerful it can be, or even know to look for it when watching a magic performance. The only way they find these things out is through blatant exposure, like the Fox TV special we all hate, or by taking the time to learn, which is exactly what we have all done. If all magical secrets were relegated only to "closed" organizations like The Magic Castle, then innovations would not be as prevalent. Having a vibrant, growing magic community prevents the craft from becoming stagnant.
Message: Posted by: Greg Arce (Feb 25, 2006 04:36PM)
But here's the rub... supposedly most people here are in the inside and know the rules... SUPPOSEDLY we should follow the code of not exposing others secrets and respecting other people's acts and effects... BUT all you see here is, especially after it is seen on a video, "Does anyone know how that works?" Or worse, "I figured it out, it's easy, all he did was use a..."
Somehow many believe because they figured something out it is time to tell everyone how it works. And worse, they seem to think because they figured it out it is less valuable... like only stuff that completely fools you makes it good.
How about this? Keep you mouth and fingers shut if it isn't your effect, presentation or idea. How about only putting stuff you've invented here. How about respecting the time and effort others put into their ideas and not talking about it or trying to figure it out by using the forum as a collective brain.
How about being the first one to buy a product and reviewing it for everyone instead of being the type of person that will only buy what others have reviewed first. How about watching creative people like Brown, Cyril, etc, and thinking, "Wow, I have to work more on magic and presentations to make the original like those guys" and not, "Where can I get THAT!!!"
I see many great performers at The Castle and many times I've been fooled badly, but I wouldn't think of approaching them and saying, "How did that work?" But here it seems to be a standard question when you are fooled... so do you like it when spectators question you after your demonstrations and only want to know how it's done? And do you tell them in the same easy way that it is expected here when someone asks how it's done?
I know it's not going to change.There's always going to be a large group that actually believes that collecting tricks and ideas is the path to success... we'll probably never see anything new come from them or attend one of their lectures or buy one of their books because they will never advance that way.. but for those that actually want to become a better magician by actually trying to be creative and thinking about their style, magic and presenations,then I hope you realize that part of that success path is respecting others and their ideas.
Just my opinion.

Greg
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Feb 25, 2006 07:29PM)
Greg:
That is an opinion I share. Thank you

Tony
Message: Posted by: Michael J. Douglas (Feb 25, 2006 08:35PM)
Preach on, Brotha Greg! Can I get an amen?
Message: Posted by: mantix (Feb 25, 2006 09:45PM)
I disagree.

This forum is for people who share an interest in magic.

If we want to ask each other questions or discuss possible methods there's nothing wrong with that, so long as it doesn't violate the forum rules.

If you don't want to answer questions or discuss possible methods there's nothing wrong with that either.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2006 10:21PM)
Spoken like someone looking for a short cut
Message: Posted by: Greg Arce (Feb 25, 2006 10:37PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-25 23:21, Dannydoyle wrote:
Spoken like someone looking for a short cut
[/quote]

How true, Danny, how true. Apparently, Mantrix, I struck a nerve with you... sorry... go back to collecting effects and trying to take other people's secrets. I won't bother you... of course, I'm assuming you are extemely happy when spectators ask you how it's done and you give them the correct answers... because, of course, you would want the same thing in this forum.

I'm sure I'll never see you perform or read any of your effects so have fun doing what you do. To the choir, who understands, I'll see you on other threads that don't deal with trying to take other people's ideas or try to justify doing so.

Greg :wavey:
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Feb 25, 2006 11:36PM)
Look, the truth of the matter is that no one finds the Magic Café unless they've developed a sincere interest in magic. As far as exposure is concerned, anything that's been exposed on these boards has not been exposed to the general public.


Posted: Feb 26, 2006 12:47am
----------------------------------------------
And from what I've witnessed most magicians on this board are more than happy to "share" their secrets...for the right price.
Message: Posted by: Greg Arce (Feb 26, 2006 10:25AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-26 00:47, raphlo2 wrote:
And from what I've witnessed most magicians on this board are more than happy to "share" their secrets...for the right price.
[/quote]
Key word: THEIR
It's okay to sell or share YOUR secret... not others. It seems that everyone here thinks that if it can be downloaded or uploaded then it's free for the taking.. as if viewing a performance video is some sort of free lecture.
I said this analogy once before: I'm sure I can get an astute computer hacker to hack into someone's bank and get their pin number. Now, because I got it via the internet does it make it cool for me to then start taking out money from this person's account? Would you like it if others took and sold your personal info via the internet?
Just because we can, doesn't me we should do something. Viewing another magician's performance and marveling at it is great... dissecting it in an open forum is not... especially if it's not dissecting to figure out staging, presentational angles, use of common sleights, but dissecting it to actually figure it out and in the long run, put it into your own act.
Awhile back I said I was happy that Cyril was not known here and I got flack from it from some on these threads. I angered people because I said people would want to copy and steal his stuff... I didn't have to be much of a mentalist to predict what is already happening. I knew it would and it has.
It's a pity.
Just my opinion.

Greg
Message: Posted by: mantix (Feb 26, 2006 12:15PM)
You're complaining about the posting behavior of people on this forum, you're taking personal shots at my character, and you're telling us what is "okay" and "not okay" to do.

[quote]The Magic Café pledge
--------------------------

If I think others' Café behavior is incorrect, I will not respond, complain, comment, or correct. I will ignore. I will lead by positive example and let the Café staff handle it. [/quote]


That's all I'm sayin.
Message: Posted by: Greg Arce (Feb 26, 2006 01:45PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-26 13:15, mantix wrote:
You're complaining about the posting behavior of people on this forum, you're taking personal shots at my character, and you're telling us what is "okay" and "not okay" to do.

[quote]The Magic Café pledge
--------------------------

If I think others' Café behavior is incorrect, I will not respond, complain, comment, or correct. I will ignore. I will lead by positive example and let the Café staff handle it. [/quote]


That's all I'm sayin.
[/quote]

So I guess in your world talking back to someone is a bad as stealing stuff... why stop there... I guess you might as well go rob a bank or kidnap someone since you seem to hold all misconduct on the same level.

Greg
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 26, 2006 03:04PM)
I think instead of "magicians helping magicians" the slogan should be something like

"magicians confirming other magicians fallacies".

People get mad when they are wrong, and called on it.
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Feb 26, 2006 05:36PM)
I agree completely with Greg. The problem with this BBoard is that magicians from all levels have access to it. I think that more experienced magicians, or working magicians, have developed respect for other peoples work, while more novice magicians are trying to get their hands on everything. I've always thought that you should have to pass some sort of test to have access to these boards, for that reason.
Message: Posted by: CasualSoul (Feb 27, 2006 12:44AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-26 18:36, raphlo2 wrote:
I agree completely with Greg. The problem with this BBoard is that magicians from all levels have access to it. I think that more experienced magicians, or working magicians, have developed respect for other peoples work, while more novice magicians are trying to get their hands on everything. I've always thought that you should have to pass some sort of test to have access to these boards, for that reason.
[/quote]

As an amateur myself, I'm not offended by this and I can completely understand this perspective, but isn't there already a "secured" area on the Café?

Although I also do agree with most of what Greg said, I've been pouring over these boards for a long time before I finally joined and still stand by my statement that most posters are respectful of the Code. Of course I have a passion to learn and grow as a magician and try to glean as much as I can from the words of all the pros that post here, but I don't like it any more than any professional magician does when people are getting to know secrets for free that I had to pay for. Never mind the fact that people who learn without buying are often missing out on so many of the subtle technical details that take an effect from good to great. But I don't think I'm alone in saying that my intention is not to steal magic, it's to:

1. weed out the good from the crap magic that's for sale out there (i do the same kind of research before I make any kind of purchase decision)
2. learn new approaches to magic I already do; and
3. share my own knowledge and experiences with those that can benefit from it.

It's also just nice to be able to talk about magic with fellow magicians, as there are few people in our regular life we can talk to about it.
Message: Posted by: The Great Dave (Feb 27, 2006 04:35AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-25 10:47, Dr Marvin wrote:
I know that you just want to learn, but imitating what another person has done is not helping you or your art. If you’re a musician you don’t play other peoples songs, you come up with your own. And if you a painter you just don’t paint other people's paintings, you come up with your own.
Dr Marvin
2-25-06
[/quote]

Whit Haydn has a wonderful essay on 'Against Originality in Magic'. I'll quote a little of it here ...

"It is essential that those who want to learn magic start by copying or imitating others. There is nothing wrong with this - provided of course, that the effects and routines being copied have been published by the originators. In fact, I don't believe one can learn to be a good magician except by imitation. A beginning guitar player isn't told to make up original songs. He first learns to play other people's work. Neither should a beginning magician be asked to do original tricks. All the great magicians had to learn their craft somewhere. They all began by copying the work of those that they admired."

"Without spending time performing a routine the way it was created, the student abandons all the experience, knowledge, and thought that went into its creation."

Whit Haydn
"The Chicago Surprise"
Copyright September, 2000

This is just a fraction of the article, and before anyone comments on this snippet out of context you should read the article in it's complete form in all fairness to Whit and also to others who have purchased and read it.

Best Wishes
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 27, 2006 10:02AM)
I have read the article. Matter of fact on publication.

So what?

It has NOTHNIG to do with the point. Mr. Haydn is speaking in context of BEGINNING magic. period. So it does not apply to what we are speaking of in the least.

In the beginning he is 100% correct. What about MOST of the guys on this board who are donig this for years and years? Are they covered by what was said? I don't think so.

He also mentions "published by the originators!" again a key concept.

He does NOT mention sitting arround and trying to figure out the method now does he?

Nowhere in the article does he mention this I don't believe.

Point is he spoke of beginners and I feel he is right. BUT at some point you branch out on your own. This is the part most miss.
Message: Posted by: FatTony (Feb 27, 2006 10:29AM)
I'm pretty new to these forums and I haven't learned the methods for a single thing through these boards.

MOST of the time, someone wanting to learn something is referred to a resource to learn it. That requires time and money ( read: dedication ) to learn.
Message: Posted by: The One (Feb 27, 2006 10:43AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-27 11:02, Dannydoyle wrote:
I have read the article. Matter of fact on publication.

So what?

It has NOTHNIG to do with the point. Mr. Haydn is speaking in context of BEGINNING magic. period. So it does not apply to what we are speaking of in the least.

In the beginning he is 100% correct. What about MOST of the guys on this board who are donig this for years and years? Are they covered by what was said? I don't think so.

He also mentions "published by the originators!" again a key concept.

He does NOT mention sitting arround and trying to figure out the method now does he?

Nowhere in the article does he mention this I don't believe.

Point is he spoke of beginners and I feel he is right. BUT at some point you branch out on your own. This is the part most miss.


[/quote]

I agree.

There is also the ones who just copy... and think they're as good as any Pro.

By the way... Time and money is not neccesarily dedication.
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Feb 27, 2006 10:48AM)
Time and money does take a certain level of interest though. Most people will not dedicate time and money just to find out how the local magician fooled him.
Message: Posted by: The Great Dave (Feb 27, 2006 12:11PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-27 11:02, Dannydoyle wrote:
I have read the article. Matter of fact on publication.

So what?

It has NOTHNIG to do with the point. Mr. Haydn is speaking in context of BEGINNING magic. period.
[/quote]

Actually, in review of the entire article, it could be interpreted that Mr. Haydn is speaking in the context of learning magic from a routine purchased by a magician of any interest and background - and at any level of experience. The objective would be to learn the routine as presented by the creator, and then add some originality to it if needed.

Best Wishes
Message: Posted by: Bill Hallahan (Feb 27, 2006 05:24PM)
The following are my personal opinions.

Dave is correct, it's not necessarily wrong to perform a published routine exactly as written. In fact, some authors even state that you should do just that! That type of ethical copying is not art, it's craft. Like Whit Haydn writes, it's what musicians do when they play someone else's music exactly as written without adding anything to it. If they have the ethical right to play the music, then there's nothing necessarily wrong with that.

But this topic isn't about that. The original post is about publicly disassembling a performer's routines. I see that as similar to standing in the hallway outside their show handing out pamphlets exposing their tricks to the audience members as they leave.

We magicians are like laymen too if we don't know the method for a trick. And performers have the right to amaze anyone, even magicians, without us ruining it for them. There are plenty of tricks for us to learn without exposing other people's material.

I don't assume that if someone is curious about a trick that they will copy it and perform it. But I also know that some magicians will almost certainly copy a publicly exposed trick. Not everyone follows performance ethics.

And by the way, even if the trick is published, I don't think it's right to expose it in the context of exposing a performer's act. Again, magicians aren't necessarily any different than a layman when it comes to a trick that they don't know. We shouldn't ruin someone else's show. If someone asks me how to do trick X, and some other criteria are met, then I'll tell them the method if I know it. If someone asks how magician Y does trick X, I'm not going to tell them.

Anyone who's ever performed something totally original that they created, only to be told that the audience had seen it before done by a copyist understands this issue. Anyone who's amazed another magician only to have another magician reveal the secret to their trick also understands.

And because of the [i]unethical[/i] copyists, such public discussions do real harm.
Message: Posted by: karbonkid (Feb 27, 2006 06:10PM)
I don't know about y'all but, I like to be fooled. I really do. As a matter of fact, everytime I see an effect, I just kick back and enjoy it, and if it makes me go 'WOW!', then I go about obtaining that for my repetoire, especially if it fits me.

Most magic performed by Blaine, Angel, or Cyril isn't my style, would never be my style, or my liking to research it. In casual conversation a fellow magician and my self might kick around a method, but, to be honest, I think it's like DannyDoyle said most of these people that get on this board are here for short cuts. On top of that, magicians hate to be fooled. It's a problem with the group as a whole. Not that everyone falls into this, but, a fair number do, and I think, especially beginners/novices are privy to this.
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Feb 27, 2006 07:16PM)
I love to be fooled. That is even why I don't let camera edits bug me. I like to feel like a spectator does. Infact many times I will purchase a DVD and not watch the explanations of effects for months. I have even gone over a year with some dvd's. The effects are not ones I would perfom, so why kill the magic?

Having said that. I don't think that "most" magicians are on here just for a short cut. Sometimes just asking a question of "how did they do that" makes everyone think. It makes everyone become creative in there own way. I don't always see that as a bad thing.
Message: Posted by: The Great Dave (Feb 27, 2006 09:04PM)
From the Pledge signed by all members of the International Brotherhood of Magicians ...

"I also pledge not to expose the modus operandi of any magical effect."


From the Oath of the Society of American Magicians ...

"I agree not to expose any modus operandi from stage, platform, television, radio or in any manner whatsoever.

I am opposed to cheap literature wherein magical secrets are needlessly exposed, or to the sale of professional magical effects in cheap miniature form to the public.

I am opposed to needless and useless explanations of secrets to persons who are not entitled to know them or who are not interested in magic.

I am opposed to placing any legitimate performer in a predicament while that person is before an audience."



Best Wishes
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Feb 27, 2006 10:21PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-25 14:48, Dannydoyle wrote:
Reminds me of the old joke about the women who won't date the guy.
he says how about a million dollars and she say sure. He says how about 10? and she says "what do you think I am, a lady of the evening?". to that the guy responds "we already know what you are, I am just negotiating a price!"
Magic shops strike me as being in this catagory. Sorry. I worked one for 10 years. The ONLY qualification for buying secrets, is to have enough money. Plain and simple. Sorry dealers but you are in the business of selling secrets to anyone willing to buy.
So when exposure is yapped about we need to start looking pretty close at ourselvs.

How many of our books are in Waldenbooks? Mark Wilson course sure is. Magic for Dummies and so forth. Forget the masked magician. OTHERS have exposed longer than he has and for less money.
So I guess we have to define "even a little exposure" now don't we?
What do we do have tests for magic sales? What about this board itself? Lots of exposure here too.
The solution to me is to realise magic is about entertaiment, and NOT about the secrets we keep. Entertain an audience and they will be forever greatfull.
Also stick with skill tricks and keep away from marketed effects and people will not really know what it is you are doing.
Just food for thought.
[/quote]
That was a 7 course meal in disguise - meaning - very well said !!
I concur with every single point made here.

I also agree with Greg's point on other people's original effects, most especially if they are anything remotely resembling "current".

(Let's face it - are any of Hofsinzers' descendants getting royalties from anywhere ?)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Feb 27, 2006 10:37PM)
Have you wondered why magic is taking such a dumpster dive into the works of Robert-Houdin, Germain and Hofzinser?

Have you wondered why all the fussing over silk handkerchiefs and antique coins?

Have you wondered why the market is full of stuff that made sense fifty years ago but seems odd today?

It's just the nature of that short cut some want to take. A path where "monkey see monkey do" is the rule. Sure you can live on that garden path, and maybe even get fed some bananas for your enthusiasm.

When you can respect yourself and your own ideas enough to have respect for the works and wishes of others, there are other paths to explore in the forest we call magic.

Or you can stay on the garden path and enjoy the nostalgia show. The muggles have already found other sources of magic.
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Feb 28, 2006 10:56AM)
Can I get an "amen" to that ?!

Maybe the principles don't change that much over the decades, but the "props" sure do !
I agree, Jonathan - so many magicians still following the Robert Houdin school of magic - I think Robert Houdin himself would be disgusted to see people still doing the exact same things and maintaining the same look over a hundred years later.
He broke out of the mold, yet apparently only to create a new one. Molds can become traps.
That said, Not to go off on too much of a tangent here, but I think there is one thing that is a serious impediment for modern street magicians and the like; clothing.
This might also affect our choices when it comes to style, props, and performance.
When Houdin created the new paradigm by simply wearing gentlemen's attire, and shunning the robes of the street conjuruor, he didn't really lose anything in the way of space, or the ability to hide various gimmicks on his person.
Suits, vests, relatively loose trousers all provide lots of pockets, folds, even topits, just about as much, if not more, than the wizards' robes of old. There's been no shortage of pulls and holdouts.
Todays guys have to deal with wearing the attire of their peers: jeans and t-shirts. Depending on the current trends, jeans may be pretty loose, (to the point of hanging off yer rump... gross) or nearly skintight. There just isn't the amount of "onboard" "stash space" there used to be, especially for the younger crowd.
It's definitely a challenge for forward thinking magicians.
Message: Posted by: karbonkid (Feb 28, 2006 12:05PM)
Good job, Johnathan! Well stated. I think that so long as people are modeling themselves after someone else, be it Blaine, Angel, or whoever is getting slagged here on the board that is current, it is an issue of someone trying to be where someone else is already.

I admit that early on I was one of the very same adopter/copiers and thank goodness I didn't turn to the internet for magic, cause I could have been easily caught up in the glitz of what is hot/now/current, etc. But along the way of your 'path' you do get a larger framework of understanding, that, I admittedly, am still working on everyday...and everyday it gets clearer. I think.
Message: Posted by: Clark (Feb 28, 2006 01:54PM)
Yes, very well stated, imitation is something that is necessary in the beginning of your development, but something that you will grow out of as you learn who you really are....in lots of different ways.

I still have a lot of my favorite performers (and their tricks) in "me" when I perform, but I think Goshman said it best on his tape. He stated that he would go to the same old magic clubs twenty years later and see the same old handlings and the same old patter. It's like he never left in the first place.


Clark
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 28, 2006 05:41PM)
Wow it is nice to have an opinion people don't reel against!
Message: Posted by: karbonkid (Mar 1, 2006 09:14AM)
That Goshman thing was funny as all get out, I remember watching that!

Even funnier was this one time where Penn and Teller went to Bombay or somewhere in India, and all the magicians wanted to do, over and over, was the linking rings. That's like ALL they did. So even in that light, Goshman still speaks the truth!

Then again, if you read elsewhere on the boards, maybe it's more along the lines of the reactions of the specatators that people are really jealous of. Thinking, that they could possibly garner the same reaction and actually fail miserably in the context of comparing themselves to this other person that they emulate causes a level of resentment, so that, instead of going back to the drawing board on who they actually are and how their effects relate to them, they are playing catch-up in the 'Trying to be like Criss Angel/David Blaine/Cyil Takayama' magician club.

I guess that's a problem in magic, or simply a growing pain.
Message: Posted by: Clark (Mar 1, 2006 10:07AM)
Man karbon, what a great point. I have never looked at it in that light, but I agree totally. If you are nothing more than someone's "shadow" then you are detined to do nothing but follow them around forever...in a manner of speaking.
Message: Posted by: karbonkid (Mar 1, 2006 10:47AM)
My concern is what happens when this style of performance dies out? Or, even better, simply vanishes altogether. What will become of the people who modeled after this person? Would they continue to model, or, would they be forced to change and grow as a magician? I mean, it's entirely funny that a fair number of people even use the same pat lines as these contemporary 'idols' of magic, in so much as that if David Blaine goes to Vietnam to perform for street children, then they will go to the jungles of the amazon to perform for the rainforest tribe folks, or mexico city street children. The level that these people go to copy these people can be extreme. Hence the resentment when they can't. Hence the bashing, etc. What do you think?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Mar 1, 2006 10:51AM)
Try being yourself.

If you happen to be a magician, all the better.
Message: Posted by: Clark (Mar 1, 2006 11:25AM)
I think you and Jonathan are right on point...just my opinion mind you...but being yourself is what it is all about. Practice your social skills with people in everday situations, if you suck in everyday situations with people then you have no chance as coming across as a "believable" or "real" person when you are performing.

Even poeple who have never seen any magic or the guy you are copying there will be that little "somthing" wrong duirng their time with you. A genuine you is better than a 2nd rate sell of yourself as another Bill Malone.

Clark
Message: Posted by: karbonkid (Mar 1, 2006 11:36AM)
That is one thing I pride myself on, and that is being me, as ultimately, professional or otherwise, it's what people understand. I think people/spectators can tell when some one is using an act and when someone is true or genuine. They see it from a mile out, but, I think most of the people that allow themselves to follow a model or mold would come to the conclusion of, "Well, after David Blaine bit the quarter, he just stared them in the eyes and didn't say anything...why did that not work when I did it?"

When I perform there is very little difference between me and the performance me. They are one in the same. Then again, I'm not on here trying to back figure a method to an effect either.
Message: Posted by: jgravelle (Mar 1, 2006 12:00PM)
Toward the "being yourself" philosophy, I've got to defer (again) to Marlo's Slydini story, and suggest that if you are the type of person who can pull off playing a character [i]better than[/i] (or at least, with more entertainment value than...) "being yourself", that there's nothing wrong with roleplaying your magician persona.

Houdini was, after all, a role played by Erich Weiss. Steve Martin is reportedly a quiet introvert, a personality trait shared by many performers.

As for the exposure question, I had an eight year-old girl bust my TT after her father explained the gimmick to her, and she detailed the modus operandi for her entire class. Now I work without it whenever possible, or ditch it at every opportunity.

So I became a better performer the day she became a wiser spectator. Seems like a win-win scenario to me...


Regards,

-jjg
Message: Posted by: karbonkid (Mar 1, 2006 12:29PM)
You are correct, jg. These people do have great characters, but, they were orginal characters to my knowledge, like a David Blaine or a Criss Angel. They are novel, and they, themselves, are being an extension of themselves and true to themselves and not copying an already developed character or stylistic choice.

I'm sure that I shot myself in the foot here, cause, as the Café generally goes people will pick apart your arguement, but, for me, being me works, and that might not be for everyone. Some would choose a character, but, if your character is a 'Mysterious Stranger' then that role has been filled already. And you got these people who try to live to that standard or that hype, and I think, along that journey of trying to become someone else, they lose sight of what magic is really all about, hence why (coming back full circle now), there is a lot of people jealous over these types of folks and that are hell bent on exposing their tricks/secrets/effects, etc.
Message: Posted by: Clark (Mar 1, 2006 12:34PM)
Jjg,

I totally agree with what you say as well. I would by no means argue what you have posted as it very correct...that is, if you can indeed get away with the performance character that you are speaking of. my point is that if you are trying to play a comedic character, yet you yourself are not the least bit funny, you will fail, or at least not seem like a genuinely funny person to the audience.

My point on being yourself first is that you cannot even pick a persona to play if you do not have the needed tools somewhere inside yourself already. I have seen many a "one liner" performer trying to play as funny, yet come across as a true *ss to everyone around them watching their show. Which brings me back to my point of spending some think time on your strengths in everyday situations. Arbitrarily picking a character to mimic because you have seen one and liked them is just not going to work. Houdini was more than a "role" played by Eric Weiss, the character was an extension of a strength he already possessed.

I don't want to seem argumentative because I agree with you wholeheartedly, I just think that the only way to finding the character for you is by being yourself in your performances first.

On the TT, you have a great outlook on that type scenario, and I couldn't agree with you more.

Best,
Clark
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Mar 1, 2006 12:36PM)
Jjg,

We all (SHOULD) know that performance is theatrical.

Whether or not we channel others when we perform is another matter.
Message: Posted by: BlackShadow (May 9, 2006 07:07PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-25 14:48, Dannydoyle wrote:
Reminds me of the old joke about the women who won't date the guy.

he says how about a million dollars and she say sure. He says how about 10? and she says "what do you think I am, a lady of the evening?". to that the guy responds "we already know what you are, I am just negotiating a price!"

Magic shops strike me as being in this category. Sorry. I worked one for 10 years. The ONLY qualification for buying secrets, is to have enough money. Plain and simple. Sorry dealers but you are in the business of selling secrets to anyone willing to buy.

So when exposure is yapped about we need to start looking pretty close at ourselves.

How many of our books are in Waldenbooks? Mark Wilson course sure is. Magic for Dummies and so forth. Forget the masked magician. OTHERS have exposed longer than he has and for less money.

So I guess we have to define "even a little exposure" now don't we?

What do we do have tests for magic sales? What about this board itself? Lots of exposure here too.

The solution to me is to realise magic is about entertainment, and NOT about the secrets we keep. Entertain an audience and they will be forever grateful.

Also stick with skill tricks and keep away from marketed effects and people will not really know what it is you are doing.

Just food for thought.
[/quote]

This is a post by one of the few people at Magic Café who has got their head round this subject and understood it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 9, 2006 07:16PM)
Thank you. Not a popular opinion, but it is the only one I have.