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Topic: Invisible deck problem
Message: Posted by: trickychris (Apr 23, 2006 07:13AM)
Last night I was performing an effect with the invisible deck and on 2 occassions had more than one card reveal its self!!
it was a new deck.
it was slightly hot in the room -could this have effected the deck? (a theory from the other magician at the venue)
are there ways of preventing this?

I don't use a brainwave deck - is this more reliable?

thanks
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Apr 23, 2006 09:41AM)
It could be the PRESSURE or lack of, when you grip and spread the cards. OR... you got a poorly made one. Are you near the dealer you bought it from? If so take it back and try another one.
Message: Posted by: Kaylan (Apr 23, 2006 09:55AM)
Pete's on the money on this one. You could also just apply some roughing fluid to the cards that aren't staying together well.

Kaylan
Message: Posted by: Vater Araignee (Apr 23, 2006 12:18PM)
I know that this sounds a tad over cautious but, I make sure I have roughing fluid on hand before I purchase any rough smooth items.
It just saves you from the grief of getting a few bad cards.
Message: Posted by: trickychris (Apr 23, 2006 12:49PM)
Ok -i'll get some fluid,give that a go
thanks
Message: Posted by: scorch (Apr 23, 2006 12:51PM)
You should thoroughly check out any new decks before you try to perform with them.

And no, the brainwave deck will not be any more reliable. It's based on the same principle and will be just as susceptible to this sort of thing, depending on the quality of manufacture.

I do not think the temperature of the venue would effect the workings of the cards themselves. However, it could be very possible that your hands were more damp than they usually are. Usually when people have complaints about the cards not separating very easily (a common complaint with the invisible deck), it's a matter of the dryness of their skin and not anything to do with the cards. So perhaps if the cards spread too easily, it is possible that you had more friction than normal with your fingertips against the cards.
Message: Posted by: Marco S. (Apr 23, 2006 01:25PM)
Stick with the invisible deck, it is much better. And make sure you get a good one, then you shouldn`t have any such problem.
Message: Posted by: Nathan Kranzo (Apr 23, 2006 07:49PM)
Yeah it's all about pressure. You have to live with the deck for a while to really understand how it works. Think sand paper.

The Braiwave pack is no different as already mentioned. Unless of course it was made by a different company, different cards, older, used more etc.

If it was a new deck and ou didn't apply enough pressure that's most likely what happened. Also check out alternate presenations using wax if you just can't handle the rough deck.

All the best,

Nathan
Message: Posted by: ziatro (Apr 23, 2006 08:30PM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-23 14:25, Marco S. wrote:
Stick with the invisible deck, it is much better. And make sure you get a good one, then you shouldn`t have any such problem.
[/quote]

It's not necessarily better, it's just different.
Message: Posted by: late night diner (Apr 23, 2006 10:43PM)
Ive noticed too that not all invisible decks are created equal. At one time there used to be only the Don Alan brand, now I see there's a few company's putting them out (and there IS a difference on the quality/quanity of roughing fluid they use).
Message: Posted by: Marco S. (Apr 24, 2006 03:33AM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-23 21:30, ziatro wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-04-23 14:25, Marco S. wrote:
Stick with the invisible deck, it is much better. And make sure you get a good one, then you shouldn`t have any such problem.
[/quote]

It's not necessarily better, it's just different.
[/quote]

This has been discussed many times. It IS better! Try both on your audience and you will find out quickly.
Message: Posted by: Marcus K (Apr 24, 2006 02:04PM)
And BTW, just to add some frosting to this discussion, check out the work Don Alan did with the Invisible Deck on the Greater Magic volume. Magnificent stuff. One idea was to put the cards in order... that's right, in numeric order, evens on one side, odds on the other so that you could go RIGHT to the face down card. The worst part of the ID for me is the obvious LOOKING that I have to do when, if the card were actually face down, I'd do a table spread. With the cards in numeric order, you can hit it fast every time with no searching at atll. As far as anyone noticing the order - what difference does the order make? Anyway, he said nobody ever noticed.

Have fun!

Marcus
Message: Posted by: Nathan Kranzo (Apr 24, 2006 02:50PM)
Karrell Fox has a great idea that Wayne Dobson uses where an Invisible Deck is used and the card's aren't gaffed! Brilliant!

In fact you don't even need a deck you can just have them name the card and it's the only card in an envelepe. Sorry for getting off topic.

All the best,

Kranzo
Message: Posted by: akumasan42 (Apr 25, 2006 02:41PM)
I've yet to use it, but Richard Osterlind has a fantastic idea for the invisible deck in conjunction with the breakthrough card system, in which the spectator chooses a card, and the magician shows his prediction before the specs card is even seen by either magician or spectator. Easy and totally direct mentalism, couldn't seem fairer.
Message: Posted by: Magicpitch (Apr 25, 2006 03:19PM)
For what it's worth, I have noticed that the "Murphy's Magic Supplies" Invisible Decks have been VERY good. I believe it has a sleeve around it and I believe it has instructions by Daryl with it.

They are the best I have seen out there in a while.
Message: Posted by: ziatro (Apr 26, 2006 03:23PM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-24 04:33, Marco S. wrote:
[quote]

On 2006-04-23 14:25, Marco S. wrote:
Stick with the invisible deck, it is much better. And make sure you get a good one, then you shouldn`t have any such problem.
[/quote]

Ziatro wrote
It's not necessarily better, it's just different.
[/quote]

This has been discussed many times. It IS better! Try both on your audience and you will find out quickly.
[/quote]

Strangely enough Marco I've used both decks on many occasions, all with excellent results. If you are having problems getting an equally good response from a brainwave deck don't be frightened to give me a P.M. as I'm sure I can point you in the right direction. Now if you find this a patronising response then re-read your last comment on my post.
Message: Posted by: ziatro (Apr 26, 2006 03:26PM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-26 16:23, ziatro wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-04-24 04:33, Marco S. wrote:
[quote]

On 2006-04-23 14:25, Marco S. wrote:
Stick with the invisible deck, it is much better. And make sure you get a good one, then you shouldn`t have any such problem.
[/quote]

Ziatro wrote
It's not necessarily better, it's just different.
[/quote]

Marco S. wrote
This has been discussed many times. It IS better! Try both on your audience and you will find out quickly.
[/quote]

Strangely enough Marco I've used both decks on many occasions, all with excellent results. If you are having problems getting an equally good response from a brainwave deck don't be frightened to give me a P.M. as I'm sure I can point you in the right direction. Now if you find this a patronising response then re-read your last comment on my post.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: strat1969 (Apr 27, 2006 06:10AM)
Got my first ID from Ellusionst. Worked fine but most spectators assumed a 'trick deck' because it was a black deck. Got another from eBay that was standard bikes. Far fewer questions, stronger effect, and easier switch to get clean.

Finally realized that it would be cheaper to make my own and have done so for 8 months now. I have better control of the quality and save money.
Message: Posted by: ades888 (Apr 27, 2006 07:36AM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-24 15:50, Nathan Kranzo wrote:
Karrell Fox has a great idea that Wayne Dobson uses where an Invisible Deck is used and the card's aren't gaffed! Brilliant!

In fact you don't even need a deck you can just have them name the card and it's the only card in an envelepe. Sorry for getting off topic.

All the best,

Kranzo
[/quote]

Where's the best place to get the special "somethings" to perform the Wayne Dobson Invisible Deck?
Message: Posted by: Marco S. (Apr 27, 2006 09:54AM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-26 16:26, ziatro wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-04-26 16:23, ziatro wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-04-24 04:33, Marco S. wrote:
[quote]

On 2006-04-23 14:25, Marco S. wrote:
Stick with the invisible deck, it is much better. And make sure you get a good one, then you shouldn`t have any such problem.
[/quote]

Ziatro wrote
It's not necessarily better, it's just different.
[/quote]

Marco S. wrote
This has been discussed many times. It IS better! Try both on your audience and you will find out quickly.
[/quote]

Strangely enough Marco I've used both decks on many occasions, all with excellent results. If you are having problems getting an equally good response from a brainwave deck don't be frightened to give me a P.M. as I'm sure I can point you in the right direction. Now if you find this a patronising response then re-read your last comment on my post.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Indeed, your comment is patronizing. I don`t need to be "pointed in the right direction", as you say. I repeat what I said. ID is not only different, but much better. Maybe you should do a search here and find out what I mean. The great majority of fellow magicians and also of the audience prefer the Invisible Deck, for various reasons. I don`t know who you are performing for.

P.S. You always post everything twice?
Message: Posted by: Midwestmagic (Apr 27, 2006 05:55PM)
I am so happy to see that so many of us are still using this deck !I have done lots of research and it is my beliefe that you could walk around in crowd of people wth this deck and entertain for hours never doing the same effect!
Message: Posted by: gink103 (May 3, 2006 02:37AM)
Well what are some other effects with the invisible deck. My presentation is to hand someone an imaginary deck and tell them to spread it and take a card and turn it over. What presentations do you do with your Invisible deck?
Message: Posted by: earlmat (May 3, 2006 09:17PM)
If possible, I spread through my invisible deck right before performance so that I know how pressure to use in order to properly spread the deck during peformance. Also, the more you use your deck, the more that you may have to make adjustments to your pressure during the spread. But, I agree with earlier comments in that this is a awesome trick and I would not let this problem discourage you from using it. Especially when the problem can be so easily corrected.

Have a good one.

Earl
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 4, 2006 09:39PM)
There never actually was a Don Alan Brand of ID. Those were made by the same people that made all of the other Haines products.

When you get a new one polish the smooth surfaces with a silk. Leave the other surfaces alone. The cards will work much better that way. Also, when the cards get dirty, polish the smooth surfaces with a silk. That will restore them. I have R/S decks that I have used for 15 years on a regular basis. I replace them when the ink begins to come off the cards.
Message: Posted by: MAGISHAUN (May 4, 2006 10:41PM)
You can always make your own if your not satisified with magic shops decks. Theres several resources if you don't know how but first hint is to get the roughing spray.
Message: Posted by: Joey Stalin (May 4, 2006 11:44PM)
What is the exact type of spray to buy for roughing? I remember the krylon part, just not the number.
Message: Posted by: oso2you (May 5, 2006 01:35AM)
I've used the spray-on roughing fluid but I am wondering how good the roughing stick is? Seems like it would be much easier to use if it was a good product.
Anyone? Bueller?
Message: Posted by: MAGISHAUN (May 5, 2006 02:35AM)
Never tried the roll on. Theres several different kind of roughing spray. Ive used the ones you get through magic shops and bought one at a arts and crafts store or a local hardware store and its made by 3m. They've all worked for me.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Lozoff (May 5, 2006 01:30PM)
Oh lord, please don't do that. It takes what could be a lifetime memory of true magic and turns it into a joke. Please take some time to creat or research real uses of this deck that take advantage of it potential. Unless you like using the Mona Lisa as a table mat.

TA Waters has some great uses, Osterlind, Blaine's simple presentation, etc.

Does anyone else use the "invisible Deck' presentation with this deck? I just assumed that went out in the 50s or so.

[quote]
On 2006-05-03 03:37, gink103 wrote:
Well what are some other effects with the invisible deck. My presentation is to hand someone an imaginary deck and tell them to spread it and take a card and turn it over. What presentations do you do with your Invisible deck?
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (May 13, 2006 06:40AM)
High humidity can affect how an ID works. I make my own IDs out of PVC cards. They work well, even in high humidity.

I sometimes use a bar of Cashmere Bouquet soap and cut the corner off of it. Then, I draw an "X" on the smooth sides of the cards with the soap, to make them slick.

Pressure does have a lot to do with making the deck work the way it's supposed to work. Use a firm pressure to keep the cards together and a very light pressure to separate them.
Message: Posted by: DomKabala (May 13, 2006 07:28AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-05 00:44, Joey Stalin wrote:
What is the exact type of spray to buy for roughing? I remember the krylon part, just not the number.
[/quote] That would be Krylon Matte Finish #1311. :cheers:
:bikes: :bluebikes: :bikes:
:spinningcoin: KRaz4kardz :spinningcoin:
Message: Posted by: Brent McLeod (May 14, 2006 03:57PM)
I for many years havre used the ID as an interlude item in between music segments of my act-a test to see if the the audience is in sync with me etc by sending a mental image of 1 card to the spec with the phone etc

AS posted in other forums I get the spectator to call on a cellphone to someone outside the venue to select a card

The reactions for years have been so much stronger with this method & by play & comedy etc

I also use Jumbo ID cards at certain venues!

Cheers
Message: Posted by: Aguas (May 14, 2006 05:15PM)
I like to keep my ID in a dry place together with some siliga gel packets.
humidity = bad!
Message: Posted by: Brad Burt (May 17, 2006 09:04PM)
I speed read through the posts, but I don't remember seeing this: You may have just gotten a bad deck. It happens. If the rough fluid was misapplied you could have a deck the will work very inconsistantly.

A good Invis deck should take only the most basic of pressure to insure that it works correctly. If you have to bear down in an unnatural way to make it work you need a new deck. Best,
Message: Posted by: JustLoco (Aug 5, 2008 01:27AM)
I have the same problem with my ID. I just use a one-handed fan instead of two-handed spread, which allows me to use more pressure.
Message: Posted by: CardWiz (Aug 6, 2008 10:36PM)
When you spread the cards out push your right thumb harder and move it lower..

I would take time to fix the problem...you're missing out.
Message: Posted by: jaylynch68 (Aug 17, 2008 03:18PM)
I just bought the invisible deck from Theatre Magic. I've found if I'm not holding the deck "just so" some of the reversed cards may reveal themselves. I'm still practicing & am fairly new to magic so I'm not speaking from much experience. It seems that the technique for holding and fanning the cards will affect the effect,

Jay
Message: Posted by: Bill Hammer (Dec 15, 2008 11:13AM)
Here's a simple routine with the ID that always has impact for me. I thought of it but I'm sure it's been around for a while. The spectator reads the magician's mind after he/she turns back and "turns over one card." Patter and simplicity make the trick.
Message: Posted by: Leo-Kim (Dec 15, 2008 12:34PM)
Darwin Ortiz has a routine called "Do as I did" in his book "At the card table". It involves an invisible deck (Ultra-mental deck) and a deck in Si Stebbins order. Sounds like the same premise as Osterlind with his breakthrough system that akumasan42 posted about.

The advantage of this type of effect is that the heat is off the deck when the climax happens i.e: you first show a reversed card (you know what it should be thanks to the stack) removes it and pockets the deck. Then you turn over the selection and finally your prediction card. The ID is out of sight, out of mind.

Easy effect, great impact.

Mikael Johansson
Sweden
Message: Posted by: cbitsakt (Dec 16, 2008 03:33PM)
When I first saw the invisible deck effect I was quite intrigued. Looked quite good. Quickly though I realized (just by the demo) that it probably utilizes the same principle as the mental photography deck. Even though this is (or can be) another good trick, I'm not too happy with how robust it is. I mean, even if you have roughing spray the amount of friction between cards may differ. This means that you will either reveal more than one card (in any trick deck) or, when you get to the point where you want to reveal the card you're pressure will vary significantly....Basically it will be more than obvious that you're pushing harder.
Secondly, and most importantly, someone's that watching the trick up, close and personal, has a good chance realizing that as you go through the deck, you're pushing two cards at a time.... And I know that you guys will suggest to watch my angles, but I'm telling you...I have friends that I can show them two cards as one (perfectly one behind the other), completely face on, and from five feet away, and they know I have two cards just from the thickness.... And that has left ME scratching my head (and frustrated, of course).
Sorry for all this babble, but taking into account all of the above, how do we really rate the invisible (and mental photography) decks???

Please let me know before I purchase in vain.

Thanks so much everyone.

Constantine.
Message: Posted by: jocdoc (Dec 16, 2008 08:32PM)
I personally make my own invisible and brainwave decks. They work fine - easy to spread and reveal the necessary cards without suspicion amongst my spectators.

One thing that may help with your concern about the appearance of the cards is to delay the final reveal a beat or two after spreading to where you want to be. Make it look like you purposely delayed the final card reveal for maximum effect - this would provide a reason for double thickness (if, in fact, someone really did observe this - not really an issue for me). The effect becomes a little bit more magical if you reveal the card slowly.

Paul Green has a fun ID routine that can be found on his Classic Force video and is also sold as a separate routine called "I Knew it all the Time."
Message: Posted by: Johnny4781 (Dec 17, 2008 04:52PM)
Hi guys,

Re: Invisible Decks: I'm not too sure how much this idea is used - as far as I know, I came up with it, in other words, I didn't pick it up anywhere, the idea just came to me - I'm sure I'm not the first. I'd have the spec. secretly write down the name of a card (3H for example) on a post-it note in a John Cornelius type of wallet & even wrap a rubber band around it (of course, getting my peek along the way) & then reveal the face-down card (in the ID) that was NEVER even mentioned! I'm fairly new at magic myself, but I really love this version being that it is the only version that I've seen where the name of the thought-of card is never even mentioned!

The ideas can be endless with the ID!!
Thanks,
Johnny
Message: Posted by: jocdoc (Dec 18, 2008 01:57AM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-16 16:33, cbitsakt wrote:
When I first saw the invisible deck effect I was quite intrigued. Looked quite good. Quickly though I realized (just by the demo) that it probably utilizes the same principle as the mental photography deck. [/quote]

Oops - I forgot to address this issue. ID is not same as mental photography exactly, the latter has additional alterations to the deck. You should be able to play with an ID at your local magic shop to become familiar with it. If you don't have a local shop, the decks are cheap (i.e. <$10 US) and you will find a use for it (whether it be as an out for a busted card call or a trick itself). I don't think that you'd find the ID a waste of money.
Message: Posted by: cbitsakt (Dec 18, 2008 10:12AM)
Thanks so much jocdoc. I guess I'll give it a try and buy some roughing spray too.

Cheers.
Constantine.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hammer (Dec 18, 2008 08:31PM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-16 16:33, cbitsakt wrote:
I mean, even if you have roughing spray the amount of friction between cards may differ. This means that you will either reveal more than one card (in any trick deck) or, when you get to the point where you want to reveal the card you're pressure will vary significantly....Basically it will be more than obvious that you're pushing harder.[/quote]

Practice, practice, practice. :) It took me a while to get the hang of the spreading process, but with repetition you will eventually learn how to do it flawlessly. Experiment with different degrees of downward pressure with your right thumb as you spread the cards, small bunches at a time. Also, I'm an older guy and my skin is a bit dryer than when I was younger, so wetting my left thumb and rubbing it against my middle finger just before spreading gives me added control. Not too professional, but it works.

[quote]
Secondly, and most importantly, someone's that watching the trick up, close and personal, has a good chance realizing that as you go through the deck, you're pushing two cards at a time.... And I know that you guys will suggest to watch my angles, but I'm telling you...I have friends that I can show them two cards as one (perfectly one behind the other), completely face on, and from five feet away, and they know I have two cards just from the thickness.... And that has left ME scratching my head (and frustrated, of course).[/quote]

I think if you practice sufficiently as mentioned above, you will gain confidence in the spreading process and your natural demeanor will go a long way in avoiding this problem. You are the one causing the detection, not your spectators.

Good luck, Constantine.
Message: Posted by: cbitsakt (Dec 22, 2008 09:34AM)
Thanks so much bluelight!
Back to the drawing board for me then!! :)
Message: Posted by: magicman50 (Dec 22, 2008 12:45PM)
For roughing fluid go to a hobby store and by Dullcote it is the same thing but much cheaper
Message: Posted by: jugglestruck (Dec 22, 2008 02:15PM)
Living and performing in a pretty cold place I nearly always have to wet my thumb and finger in order to get the grip to seperate the cards. It's only in a warm setting that my digits have the tacky adhesion needed.
When I lick my fingerI make a real show of it so as to build the effect, rather than doing it undercover.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hammer (Dec 27, 2008 09:37PM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-22 15:15, jugglestruck wrote:
When I lick my fingerI make a real show of it so as to build the effect, rather than doing it undercover.
[/quote]

Thanks for the head-slapper tip [doh]. :) Sometimes the best solutions are the easiest.
Message: Posted by: cafeinst (Jan 16, 2015 01:26PM)
My ID deck works very well. My Brainwave deck doesn't work very well (cards are revealed). My Mental Photography deck worked well at first but now cards are being revealed.

Do magic shops sell roughing fluid?
Message: Posted by: ejohn (Jan 17, 2015 06:30PM)
Yes, and nowadays there is the roughing stick. It is easier to use and has gotten good reviews.
Message: Posted by: inigmntoya (Jan 18, 2015 08:41AM)
[quote]On Dec 27, 2008, Bill Hammer wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-12-22 15:15, jugglestruck wrote:
When I lick my fingerI make a real show of it so as to build the effect, rather than doing it undercover.
[/quote]

Thanks for the head-slapper tip [doh]. :) Sometimes the best solutions are the easiest. [/quote]

Others disagree and think it's gross, unsanitary, and unprofessional.
You might alienate your audience in the process. See this thread:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=543743&forum=2&20&start=0
Message: Posted by: Mick-L-Hinman (Mar 4, 2015 01:15AM)
It could either be a pressure issue or not enough roughing fluid on the cards.
Message: Posted by: Aslan Magic (May 28, 2019 07:09PM)
I have a love hate relationship with the ID. I always struggle with them especially with new packs. They stick together like remain voters at a Brexit rally. They just will not separate for me. I love the principle and the routines that go wit them but I am afraid that for some reason I really struggle handling them. :(
Message: Posted by: peppermeat2000 (May 29, 2019 09:01PM)
Https://www.mimesis-magic.com/index.html

This guy makes the best invisible decks...PERIOD!
Message: Posted by: videoman (Jul 6, 2019 12:05AM)
Anyone know if Sean at Mimesis is still doing business?
Message: Posted by: blurrylines (Aug 11, 2019 08:52PM)
His site has been down for months... Very nice guy, he seems to have disappeared.
Message: Posted by: hypnoman1 (Aug 19, 2019 11:14PM)
QUOTE: Anyone know if Sean at Mimesis is still doing business?

Strange I just purchased from him a few months ago. Seems like his web site is also not working.