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Topic: Fast Company it wasn't.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Apr 24, 2006 11:54AM)
I played Poker last Saturday night with four other guys. All I'm gonna say about "moving under fire" and all that stuff is this;

While it's very important to work on you moves and techniques. And I do that. If you want to steal money at the card table, there are PLENTY of games in which you could do what ever you want. It's much like when magicans say "don't worry about it, laypeople never notice". Many, many card players don't know their ass from their elbow. If you want to steal their money you can steal it. And you don't have to deal invisible seconds or any of that crap.

You would not have believed the things I saw and the things I did in this game. Every one of these other players has been playing cards for 25 years. These are not guys who just picked it up because of all the Texas trash on TV. But they play with the same people most of the time. They haven't broadened their horizons. They get AWFULLY cozy.

Get the money? I could have gotten ALL the money if I wanted to. And it has LITTLE or NOTHING to do with moves.

So if you want to steal money, go steal money. Don't look at someones cards moves and say something stupid like "That would never get the money" unless you know exactly what type of game they are playing in. Getting the money has much more to do with the game in which you play than how well you move. If you eventually want to steal from the very best, in the best games,then you will have to be flawless. But there is so much sugar laying out there on basement cards tables that you don't have to know a center deal from a center cut pork chop to take it.

Vandy
Message: Posted by: cinemagician (Apr 24, 2006 12:15PM)
Agreed, while have not played in a "friendly" game in some time, I seem to never win the argument about basic strategy with blackjack players. In the casino I am so tired of being yelled at by surrendering when I supposed to, or the old, "you should have hit it, sacrifice one for the table" line. Once people ahve formed their oppinions they just do not want to listen a deserve to loose their money.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Apr 24, 2006 12:18PM)
Right on!

Money is money is money... and ego is ego is ego.

A card cheat only wants the money. A cardman wants perfect moves.

Try taking perfect moves to the bank....

I am not saying that I don't like to see an expertly executed second deal; and I am not saying that I haven't enjoyed countless hours of practice. I do love beautiful sleight of hand, and I find the hours that I spend with a deck of cards to be something very valuable to me.

Not as valuable as money, though.

It never ceases to amaze me that so many cardplayers invest so much money into their "game" and never bother to educate themselves as to the myriad of ways that they can get ripped off.

It also never ceases to please me.

Great post, Vandy. Next time, take the money. ALL of it....

CC
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Apr 24, 2006 12:21PM)
Cinemagician,

For the record, I believe that Vandy was talking about blatant cheating at cards. Card counting certainly does not fall into this category.

CC
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Apr 24, 2006 12:48PM)
Yes CC is right. I wasn't talking about "advantage" play. That's one thing. I'm talking about straight out cheating by manipulating the cards or the amount of money I threw into the pot.

Running up hands? I could have done it on every one of my deals(with overhand shuffles if I wanted to). Splashing/shorting the pot? I could have done that every time I threw in. Ringing in a cold deck? I could have rung in a cold deck on every one of my deals. Shifting the cut? With the easiest methods possible. I played around with the discards all night. The guy next to me kept showing me his cards when I was out of the hand. Can you imagine that? No one cared, and he didn't seem to care that he was giving me insight into how he played certain hands. It was ridiculous.

I'm no expert at card moves. I am an intermediate card handler, an amateur magican, and a guy who likes to play cards. That would have been PLENTY at this game. And I've played in dozens of others like it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 24, 2006 02:17PM)
"Many, many card players don't know their ass from their elbow."

True!

Even those who play for very high stakes - I have found - I have said that for ages. You would think they would but they don't. Go get em Vandy!
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Apr 24, 2006 02:19PM)
It's shocking but true. I mean I've seen some things, but the things I saw Saturday night literally made my jaw drop in a few instances.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Apr 24, 2006 03:35PM)
Is this new news? ive known this for years!
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Apr 24, 2006 04:08PM)
I don't think "stealing" beer money in some backyard BBQ game with your bowling league constitutes "moving under fire," no offense.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Apr 24, 2006 04:14PM)
None taken. As for beer money, I know plenty of guys that have a lot more money than brains and aren't afraid to gamble it.

We aren't playing for 10's of thousands. But it's not "beer money" either. This must come as a surprise to you based on your comments, but, there is ALOT of money changing hands every night in private homes. Obviously more than you can imagine, if you think every private game is played for "beer money" around the backyard BBQ. Or are you just assuming that I only play penny ante?

Why do you put stealing in quotes?

Vandy
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Apr 24, 2006 05:54PM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-24 17:14, Vandy Grift wrote:
None taken. As for beer money, I know plenty of guys that have a lot more money than brains and aren't afraid to gamble it.

We aren't playing for 10's of thousands. But it's not "beer money" either. This must come as a surprise to you based on your comments, but, there is ALOT of money changing hands every night in private homes. Obviously more than you can imagine, if you think every private game is played for "beer money" around the backyard BBQ. Or are you just assuming that I only play penny ante?

Why do you put stealing in quotes?

Vandy
[/quote]

If the company's that loose and the pots don't reach 4 figures I don't see what the big fuss is. I'm sure you could openly arrange the cards and no one would have a clue. Again, not something to brag about, in my view.
Message: Posted by: Slim Price (Apr 24, 2006 07:12PM)
I may be old, but I think stealing is objectional! Whether it's from a shopping cart, a card table or anywhere. Are these the same people who babble about ethics from magic dealers and copping tricks? Shame, shame, shame...
sanscan
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 24, 2006 10:09PM)
No it's not the same. It's cheating at the card table and not like anything on earth. I love it! :)
Message: Posted by: J Wessmiller (Apr 24, 2006 10:13PM)
Darwin Ortiz once made a very interesting metaphor:

What does it matter if you've moved? If you do the moves well, then you're good. Do people go up to expert marksmen and tell them they aren't good because they've never shot someone?

be well,
JW
Message: Posted by: Slim Price (Apr 24, 2006 10:46PM)
Thank God we are different... Stealing is stealing no matter how you cover or re-name it.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Apr 25, 2006 12:04AM)
In a forum called "The Gambling Spot" trying to teach right from wrong as it relates to stealing is difficult to say the least.

Cheating and stealing has been as closely tied with gambling since gambling began, so in this forum, we talk about it without judging.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 25, 2006 12:55AM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-24 23:13, J Wessmiller wrote:
Darwin Ortiz once made a very interesting metaphor:

What does it matter if you've moved? If you do the moves well, then you're good. Do people go up to expert marksmen and tell them they aren't good because they've never shot someone?

be well,
JW

[/quote]

Ortiz should know better.

"Proficiency in target practice is not the sole qualification of the trap shooter. Many experts with the gun who can nonchalantly ring up the bull's eye in a shooting gallery could not hit the side of a barn in a duel. The greater the emergency, or the greater the stakes, the greater the nerve required."

-Erdnase-
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 25, 2006 01:38AM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-24 23:46, sanscan wrote:
Thank God we are different... Stealing is stealing no matter how you cover or re-name it.
[/quote]

Slim

When you worked in a gambling supply house making crooked dice what did think you were doing? An honest days work?
Message: Posted by: J Wessmiller (Apr 25, 2006 03:09AM)
Wow tommy, great point! I should've caught that one.
be well,
JW
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Apr 25, 2006 08:00AM)
I don't remember saying I ever stole anything. Or even bragging about anything.

I told you the conditions of the game I found myself in. Extremely cozy. I also said what I know I could have done in that game. AT NO TIME did I say I stole any money.

Vandy

We can't all be heavy hitters like Mr Z. Taking down $100,000 pots with flawless card technique and moves that are invisible even to the TRAINED eye. My point is that if you want to line you pockets quite nicely, with very little work, it's available to you. Go get it, or sit around and poo-poo it. If you don't want the money. Don't take the money. Believe me, to some folks, winning a measly four or five hundred bucks in a few hours is not a bad thing at all.
Message: Posted by: sportshooter (Apr 25, 2006 08:37AM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-25 09:00, Vandy Grift wrote:
Believe me, to some folks, winning a measly four or five hundred bucks in a few hours is not a bad thing at all.
[/quote]

Not a bad thing at all! You don't even have to have all the moves i.e., stacking, culling, reverse the cut or bring in a cooler. In a game of 5 card draw all you have to be able to do is peek the bottom two & top card and deal bottoms & deuces as needed.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Apr 25, 2006 09:39AM)
You know something, Mr. Z has got a point. It can easily be reasoned that the higher the stakes, the more likely it is that you will be up against more knowledgeable, and vigilant gamblers.

Although I agree with this contention, based on theory and experience alike, I would like to interject another angle.

The same amount of money, or stake, has a value that is absolutely relevant to the financial status of the one who wagers it. The amount of money wagered is also not always representative of the seriousness of the game, or the focus on security.

If an oil tycoon, a multi-millionaire, sits down across from me in a game that boasts a minimum buy-in of $2500.00, I wouldn't really expect him to worry too much about this money. I am not saying that I expect him to fall asleep between hands, but I don't expect him to sit there sweating it out either. In the grand scheme of things, this is a trifle for this person.

By the same token, if a college kid sits down in a "big" game in which the buy-in is worth his entire bankroll, I would expect him to be a bit wearier of game security. Maybe he's a smart boy and burned your hands the whole time.

So, if the multi-millionaire is not worried about the petty cash on the table and, in fact, is more concerned with the 7K he has wagered on the Knicks game (which he IS watching between hands), are you going to brag about cheating him out of a measly couple of grand?

I wouldn't. I would definitely be pleased with myself, though!

Then again, I cheat for money; not for bragging rights.

It's true. You can run around town, trying your hand at each and every "high-stakes" game that you can weasel your way into. According to Mr. Z, successfully working these games is the "big time." Only then, can one rush back to The Magic Cafť, and "brag" about his score.

Alright, fine. But, one question: How long until you get caught?

If the players that you are attempting to cheat know more about cheating then, it only stands to reason that it will take you less time to get nailed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like money too. You know what I don't like? Broken bones, getting my bankroll taken (ironic as that sounds), and having my reputation absolutely trashed because I wanted to play David and Goliath for a night.

I know of a game that consists of a local group of doctors who ventured together to found a local cigar club. They have a poker game in the back every Tuesday night. Is the game fat? You better believe it. One good hit on that game could "pay my rent" for a while. Thing is, though, not one of these guys could spot a second deal if I turned the top card face up for them. Is "stealing" from these chumps anything to brag about?

Like I said, Mr. Z makes a valid point. Cheating the elderly out of their social security checks is one thing. Getting it on in a Vegas hotel game for tens of thousands is another. Then, you have everything in between.

It's the "in between" that I believe Vandy was getting at.

But, then again, it IS quite the drag to cheat vicariously through others who don't hit four digits every time they score. Ah, the perils of being a spectator....

Mr. Z,

We here, at the Cafť, are all well aware that you are Forte trained and quite proficient with a deck of cards (as well as one-liner, empty posts.) Do me a favor, K? Stop knocking everybody here, all of the time. Vandy made an excellent post and, within it, some excellent points. Leave well enough alone, man.

CC
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Apr 25, 2006 10:19AM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-25 10:39, card cheat wrote:
You Like I said, Mr. Z makes a valid point. Cheating the elderly out of their social security checks is one thing. Getting it on in a Vegas hotel game for tens of thousands is another. Then, you have everything in between.

It's the "in between" that I believe Vandy was getting at.

CC

[/quote]

Thanks CC. I think you understand what I was talking about. The fact is that there is money out there. People that don't know whats up, people who haven't the first clue that they could be had, betting much more money than they should be. Not thousands and thousands of dollars. Nothing like what you see in the movies. Just people with some disposible income that enjoy gambling and haven't even begun to consider what could happen to them. I only made the post because I was shocked at the looseness of this particular game. Really and truly shocked.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Apr 25, 2006 11:42AM)
Hey vandy I really liked the posts in this thread. Thank you for sharing this. In the world of card games there are big money games and small money games. I think the risk is the same in both. For a pick pocket if he dips into someone elseís pocket for a wallet. The risk is the same if the wallet has one dollar or a thousand dollar bill if they get caught.

Every time I have played cards in my little penny card games they (the other players) did not think that I could move in a card game. In fact I am sure that they thought I had no idea how to play the game.

I think that there are games where people play that are loose and games with strict protocol and guys that watch other players like a hawk. It all depends on where you choose to play and who you choose to sit in with. After reading Phantoms of the card table by Gazzo. I think Walter Scott chose the games, chose the location or the place, and chose the people.

And from my understanding he did not move in the game every night and in every game. I think he was like a smart magician and chose the moment and then moved when HE had the best advantage.

But the risk of getting caught I think (my opinion) is equal no matter where you are because getting caught can happen at any time they move.
Message: Posted by: sportshooter (Apr 25, 2006 12:17PM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-25 12:42, bishthemagish wrote:
In the world of card games there are big money games and small money games.
[/quote]

And this is all relative. For someone making $30k a year at their job, a game grossing $1000 is 2 weeks pay*. Now that IS a big game for them and they only put in a few hours work. But the flip side is that it is a small game for someone making $250k/year.


* But as Erdnase said, "Hazard at play carries sensations that once enjoyed are rarely forgotten. The winnings are known as "pretty money," and it is generally spent as freely as water".
Message: Posted by: Slim Price (Apr 25, 2006 01:38PM)
Slim

When you worked in a gambling supply house making crooked dice what did think you were doing? An honest days work?

I have no defense for that. I made devices for players of all desciptions, cards, dice, tables and a few things so subtle you probably never heard of them.(think Dreadle) The place made about 1 million a year for all the equipment sold. While there were only three people who worked in "the back room" none of us were gamblers, crooked or otherwise. We took no pride in cheating or stealing. I could tell you endless horror stories about those who did,and the families that suffered as a result...
Slim
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Apr 25, 2006 01:44PM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-25 13:50, O J wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-04-25 09:00, Vandy Grift wrote:


We can't all be heavy hitters like Mr Z. Taking down $100,000 [/quote]

The only pot he's probably taking down is the one against his babysitter. :)
[/quote]

She's a cold witch but I busted her flush...
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 25, 2006 01:57PM)
"I could tell you endless horror stories about those who did,and the families that suffered as a result..."

Please do Slim.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Apr 25, 2006 02:01PM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-25 14:57, tommy wrote:
"I could tell you endless horror stories about those who did,and the families that suffered as a result..."

Please do Slim.
[/quote]

Oh NO!

Not the horror stories... anything but that!

Tommy,

Why would you want to hear about this sort of thing, anyhow? Sort of morbid, don't you think?

CC
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Apr 25, 2006 04:48PM)
He wants to know how dangerous hes living!
Message: Posted by: Craig Krisulevicz (Apr 25, 2006 11:45PM)
C'mon now......what are you guys trying to prove?

Do you walk to work or carry a lunch bucket?



-$
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 26, 2006 04:31AM)
:)

I like old stories and getting both sides of the picture. Slim I am certain could tell some of the best as well as the worst.

As for taking advantage of old women. My gradmother was an old women and took no prisoners at the poker table. If an old women sits at my poker table I don't care if she has white stick, I will take her chips by hook or by crook. If I saw the same women in the street drop her purs I would pick it up and give it her back. Why? what's difference some might ask. Well old blind women shouldn't be playing poker unless they are my grandmother. :)

Would I cheat my own grand mother at poker? I would have to be fast!
Message: Posted by: silverking (Apr 26, 2006 09:57AM)
Ya' know Tommy, I've heard people try to express this thought in many different ways, and this post is by far the best I've heard!

A blind old lady on the street deserves all of our help, respect, and assistance.

A blind old lady at the poker table is either deserving of losing her chips, or can manipulate the deck by feel alone (a'la Richard Turner) and will take you before you have a chance to take her.

There's an entire undertone to the concept of people sitting down at a poker table and not being aware what's going on.
If the dealer is using any of the "workers" grips, other players are copping chips, marked cards, etc, etc, etc.
If you can't pick up on any of these things, then you're probably at the very least out of your league, and at the very most deserving of anything that's going to happen to you while sitting at the table, including losing all your chips.
Message: Posted by: halcon (Apr 26, 2006 10:53AM)
Haha! I have a friend, who's grandmother, while in a convelescent home, would subsidize her social security by cheating the other patrons in the home. my friend couldn't underdstand how an old lady on her income could give her grandkids the gifts she was giving them. it was later, after the other people started complaining to the staff of the home, about them always losing money, that the staff decided to prevent her from playing cards with anyone. no one ever knew she was cheating. they just thought she was good.

I about bust a gut, when I heard that one.

Halcon
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Apr 26, 2006 02:39PM)
Whenever the topic of ripping 'suckers' off at the card table appears, there is an interesting dynamic that comes into play. Two camps seem to emerge, the voice of ruthless ambitious card chicanery and the voice of conscience. The one is often gently or boldly preaching, the other defiant and contemptuous. Perhaps the way to resolve this moral dycotomy is to be clear that cheating at cards is stealing and is a criminal offence. Those who practice it are crooks. People who lose money to a cheat can hurt themselves and sometimes plunge their families into hardship. This is simply true and there are no excuses. Now, lets get on with discussing Vandy's point about how important conditions are for the kind of cheating methods employed.

Best Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Apr 26, 2006 03:29PM)
I think that if your going to study the art of cheating at any game you should be ok with using the methods you learn about. People don't usually learn things just for the heck of it they learn things so they can use them. In some cases for protection which is ok but there is no reason to learn how to preform these methods if all you will be doing is looking out for them.
it amazes me that some people here devote lage portions of their lives to learning the tricks of the trade but never ever intend to use them.
Message: Posted by: Silly Walter the Polar Bear (Apr 26, 2006 06:13PM)
This one time, in band camp....
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Apr 26, 2006 06:28PM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-26 15:39, Paul H wrote:
People who lose money to a cheat can hurt themselves and sometimes plunge their families into hardship.[/quote]

Paul,

Nice post but, if I may be so bold, I have only one thing to add to this remark....

The people who "hurt themselves" and "plunge their families into hardship" by losing money to a cheat are usually compulsive gamblers; this type is going to lose their money anyway, regardless of whether the game is fixed or not. Psychologically speaking, the compulsive gambler wants to lose.

I would never, ever hesitate for a split second to trim the compulsive gambler.

Smart bettors, on the other hand, most often have reserved for the purpose of gaming, a bankroll. This is to absorb the burden of misfortune so that the impact never hits too close to home.

I'd never hesitate to hit one of those guys either.

Your Favorite Bast*rd,
CC
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Apr 27, 2006 12:54AM)
Hi CC,

I do agree. This was precisely why I worded the phrase 'people who lose money to a cheat can hurt themselves'. It is the reckless compulsion to gamble at all costs that causes the most hardship. Vandy's experience is very useful as it reinforces the point that each game has its own particular characteristics, culture almost, and deserves reseach. My experience was very different. I played in a more 'stealy' competitive atmosphere where the name of the game was to win. This was not the liberal matey get together Vandy so vividly describes. Moving in this environment was truly fightening and the cheating that I did merely reduced my losses for a bit. The guys I was playing against were seasoned skillful players and eventually I could not afford to continue even though it was a unique if resource draining experience. And I certainly got to know what it feels like to be a 'producer'.

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Apr 27, 2006 01:04AM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-27 01:54, Paul H wrote:
And I certainly got to know what it feels like to be a 'producer'.[/quote]

You walk away changed....

CC
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Apr 27, 2006 01:04PM)
Hi CC,

I walked away changed....and without any change.

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Apr 27, 2006 01:07PM)
Exactly.
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Apr 28, 2006 02:04AM)
The people who "hurt themselves" and "plunge their families into hardship" by losing money to a cheat are usually compulsive gamblers; this type is going to lose their money anyway, regardless of whether the game is fixed or not. Psychologically speaking, the compulsive gambler wants to lose.


Wake up, it's not losing if you're cheated, whether you're talking about a pathological gambler or whatever!

You guys always say "lose" instead of steal.

A.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 28, 2006 03:35AM)
Cheating at poker is obtaining money by deception - but that is poker. :) The sucker gives you his money you don't take it without his permission. Taking something without permission is stealing. Both are criminal offences. In the eyes of the law they are not the same offence. I agree with your point none the less.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Apr 28, 2006 09:52AM)
Considering the morals of cheating at the card table is not really anyting that is going to help this forum develop.
Personally, I'm not here for a discussion on the ethics of good living, and the evils of larceny minded activity such as cheating at playing cards.

I'm interested in the techniques and history of all things related to gambling, and that includes all forms of cheating used while gambling is taking place.

Sleights, methods, techniques, etc....are all of great interest to me, I don't choose to distinguish between sleights used in card magic, and sleights used in card cheating......they're all sleights, and this forum exists to discuss them.

There are a lot of areas where the ethics of modern society can be discussed, and on those forums they don't discuss card handling.

It would be great (although probably not at all likely) if we could discuss card handling and gambling here without the need to remind each other of our personal ethics.

Here's to hoping.
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Apr 29, 2006 02:15AM)
To use that pop psychology the cheats are so fond of...
It's kinda like that guy that jumps outta the Hummer and you say to yourself, he's making up for some kinda short coming.
Well, any guy that calls himself "card cheat" on a gambling forum - which is really a magic forum with special interests - well, he's coming up short on the cheating part.
I'm sure he'll post on how it's not the size, but how you use it...

Anyway, still wondering what it takes or means to be a card cheat.

Super powers aren't involved I gather?

A.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Apr 29, 2006 02:19AM)
Maybe he just likes Hummers? (giggle)

Super-powers aren't a necessity but they certainly help if you can get em.
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Apr 29, 2006 02:28AM)
Yes, and I like hummers too.

I'm really interested on what it takes.

Being neither a magician or cheat...

Card cheat, come out and play....

A.
Message: Posted by: Andrei (Apr 29, 2006 04:39AM)
I propose a video-a-thon. Whoever has the bestest, most lovely SWE shift wins.

Participans should wear an "I cheat at cards" T-Shirt so we know it's for real.

Andrei
Message: Posted by: silverking (Apr 29, 2006 12:26PM)
Be well in your thoughts.

For your easy reference, and cut directly from the Gambling Spot forum description "History, theory and ideas surrounding the mysterious world of the unscrupulous gambler"

We of course note that "ethics" isn't included in the forum guidelines, and therefore it isn't a stretch to ask that it be excluded from discussion.
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Apr 29, 2006 03:29PM)
"theory and ideas"
I wonder what that could mean?
Would it include motivation and psychology?
Could it entail a cheaters ethos?
What does it mean when we refer to someone as a kike or a dink or a square or a mark or a sucker? Whose with it?
What does it mean when Ednase says every man wants the best of it, and isn't that the 'weakness' that is the cornerstone of the con?
You want to discuss gambling without ethics?
You're just invoking another ethic, and most of this stuff is far more interesting than the stuff about eliminating finger flash on the bottom deal!
I'm off to save some lives.


A.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Apr 29, 2006 04:00PM)
You are very well spoken, and I shall contemplate your point of view.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Apr 29, 2006 05:16PM)
While all this was going on Vandy and I just switched in a cooler and just for fun I loaded in a elephant under the table to be produced from an inpromtu chop cup routine.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Apr 29, 2006 05:36PM)
You're a clever one bishy.
Message: Posted by: mxray (Apr 30, 2006 10:46PM)
This thread is a little like being invited to someone else's family reunion, and then a fistfight starts and it turns into a family brawl: Its amusing yet disturbing, at times a little ugly and even admittedly somewhat educational. You know you should look away, but just can't bring yourself to.
Nonetheless, an intriguing read, guys.

I can only add that the casino party company I work evenings for gets occasional calls for a dealer for the night at some home games once in a while. Usualy its low no-limit. But sometimes it gets a little unnerving, seeing the monety that gets played, and yes, often by people that don't even know if their hand beat someone else's after they've laid them down.
MXRay
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Apr 30, 2006 11:31PM)
O J,
Iím more interested in what a card cheat thinks is wrong.
If I say that itís stealing, itís because I want to know if a card cheat thinks itís stealing. Heck, I want to know if the person even considers himself a card cheat!
Some persons have told me that whatever happens at the card table is perfectly fine as long as youíre not caught. If you get away with it, itís not even cheating! Now thereís some insight (thanks tommy). Iím not going to change his mind, but unless we compare our zeitgeists so to speak, Iím never getting this stuff.
Others call themselves cheats, and believe what theyíre doing is stealing, and appear to have no qualms about it, but for some, thereís always a backup story rationalizing what they do.
Now I want to know, if a guy is so comfortable doing what he does, why the rhetoric about teaching a guy a lesson, or the rationalization that ďtheyíre going to lose anyway, may as well be to meĒ, or the one in this thread about some guys wanting to lose.
Is there a cheaters mythology?
Thereís even a cheat that will only say that no man but God will be his judge. With him itís really hard to figure where he stands.
Anyway, I hope you can see where Iím going.
And I donít think you have to be a card cheat or gambler to be interested in the happenings of this form, just like you donít have to be a serial killer to be interested in serial killers.

Btw I donít find serial killers all that interesting.
I mean they get all worked up, do their thing, and then itís cleaning, cooking and crafts, all of which I find very boring.

A.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Apr 30, 2006 11:49PM)
Everyone loves the idea of "easy money."
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Apr 30, 2006 11:50PM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-30 23:46, mxray wrote:
This thread is a little like being invited to someone else's family reunion, and then a fistfight starts and it turns into a family brawl
[/quote]

I think it's more like crashing the family reunion of a family with which you are currently feuding, and commenting on the general icky-ness if the family in general, loudly, [i] and expecting someone to listen[i] on top of that not even understanding why they think you are a fool.

I think the people who have joined this topic with the Idea in mind to teach the cheaters of the wrongness of their ways, are foolish. Unless you can think of another reason this would be located directly under the heading "Cons, Swindles and Scams"?

Regardless of our personal beliefs, one would have to reason that this would not really be the proper media to express ones dislike of cheating..... or am I just crazy?
With this reasoning, one might venture into a brothel and quietly walk into a room currently occupied and attempt to tell the patron why, mid-coitus, he should hike his drawers and skidaddle to church. There are other times people.
I think the brothel example is funny. I must retain it in my memory for future use. I think that I will change certain words to their profane counterpart though. It will heighten the hilarity, don't you agree?
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (May 1, 2006 02:06AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-01 00:49, Mr. Z wrote:
Everyone loves the idea of "easy money."
[/quote]
I can't argue with that; well I could but I won't because I belive it...


A.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 1, 2006 05:37AM)
At the poker table there is an unwritten law that says: "Anyone caught cheating will get severely punished by the players." All players that I know subscribe to that law. So they canít have their cake and eat it, as far as Iím concerned, I see nothing wrong in, cheating a lynch mob. So long as they don't catch me. :)
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (May 1, 2006 11:40AM)
To me its not that big of a deal to pull a few moves everytime I play. its my bet that most people here subscribe to this same type of thinking. There not looking for a game to cheat in but if the chance does occur it wont bother them to discard someone whos being a little annoying at the table :)
Message: Posted by: atucci (May 5, 2006 12:21PM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-24 12:54, Vandy Grift wrote:
Getting the money has much more to do with the game in which you play than how well you move................But there is so much sugar laying out there on basement cards tables that you don't have to know a center deal from a center cut pork chop to take it.

Vandy
[/quote]

Vandy - I couldn't agree more. Almost 30 years ago, I played in a regular Friday night poker game with my ex-brother-in-law (the obnoxious jerk) and his friends. It was nickel, dime, quarter and it was the same people week after week. Using the most basic moves, one could have made off with $100+ per night, which in the mid-70's was a little better than beer money.

My question is how would you graduate from those types of games to higher stakes? I did get into higher stakes just by mentioning the game to co-workers, who then decided we at work, should start our own game which always seemed to have higher stakes.

One of my co-workers brought his father, a doctor to one of our games who then invited me to one of his games with other doctors. All of this took place over the course of a year or so, so I could have easily graduated to 'semi-high stakes' just by casually mentioning my ex-brother-in-law's (the obnoxious jerk) game at work.

I guess that's one way but I wonder if there is a quicker way. Anyway, good post and thanks.

Tony
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 5, 2006 01:37PM)
Holden poker is a game that is usually played with up to ten players and a dealer who does not participate in the game. In informal games, however, dealing will pass from player to player.
The informal games are by and large played for much lesser stakes than formal games. One wonders if the stakes are worth the risk of cheating in such games. However, Them informal games offer more opportunities for the player to make moves than they could make in a formal game, as the players do not handle deck in a formal game. Everything about formal game is far more ceremonial and therefore more restrictive.
BUT I do not think anyone should ever kid themselves that informal games are easy to cheat in. The informal game is probably the most dangerous place to try and cheat. What I mean by that, is little games in the back room of pool halls are more likely to contain street wise kids, who may not be well educated either in school or in the art of cardsharping but they are not idiots. These guys live by their wits and instincts and the only have to think that someone is hustling them and that someone will be in trouble. Have you guys not seen The Cincinnati Kid and The Hustler? But no kidding it is not a game to cheat at cards. Personally I steer well clear of informal games. Formal games are far more civilized places to cheat but you have to be a dealer in my opinion. The company in high stakes games is slower despite what you might think but the formality of game restricts the moves you can make.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (May 5, 2006 02:10PM)
Tony,

I couldn't really tell you how to get invited to large stakes games. I was recently invited to play in a "high stakes" (high for me) game. My buddy said his boss at the place that he bartends holds poker games in back. I said "what would it take to get in" he said "I don't know, a few grand at least".

Now, that's is simply more cash than I want to play with at this time. I would have liked to sit in on the game and check it out. But I wasn't going to risk 3-5 grand to do it. I know that there are much bigger games around as well. I just got invited because I like to play cards and my buddy heard about a game. Other than word of mouth I'm not sure how you would get in. It's true that some people advertise games on the internet with some decent buy-ins. I think they are crazy to invite strangers into thier home and play like that. But that's just me.

I went to the bar and as I was walking up to the entrance a little kid was sitting outside. He asked me "are you here for the poker game?" (how's that for discression?) I said "no" and went inside. About an hour or so after I got there, a guy came out of the back, got on his cellphone and I could hear him telling his wife or girlfriend to grab 3 grand in cash and get down there ASAP. I have no idea what was going on back there, or even what game they were playing. But they were throwing some decent cash around.

So, to answer your question. I don't really know. I don't play all that big. But I know there are plenty of games going on that I could play in. Basement Hold Em' tourneys with 100-200 dollar buy ins etc and I have played in a few of those. But other than this game that is regularly being played in the bar, I don't know of any others. As far as REALLY big money, I wouldn't know where to begin to find a game like that. I couldn't afford it if I could find it.

Vandy

P.S. Tommy may well be right about formal-vs-informal games and how hard it is to move etc. But, I still think there are no hard and fast rules. I think each and every game is different. Maybe we don't even agree about what is formal and what is informal. But I would defiantely have had to see this bigger game in action to even make a simple judgement about the character of the game and the character of the characters playing in it.
Message: Posted by: silverking (May 5, 2006 05:22PM)
The danger of being a newbie at a high stakes game is being whipsawed by the regulars.

There are many who feel that high stakes games anywhere are a guranteed whipsaw if you're not an exceptional player, and even if you are, it's pretty difficult to play against 9 other players who are acting as one.

They say if you're the new guy who takes a seat at the new Bobby's Room in Vegas, you'll get such a high quality Whipsawing, you'll forever bear the scars!
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (May 5, 2006 08:09PM)
Id would venture a guess that a country club(for tennis or golf) would be the best place to start for high stakes.
Also NY has a lot of undergound games. the scenes for rounders were based of acatual places the directors investigated. although recent raids have shut down a lot of them.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (May 5, 2006 09:18PM)
If you guys want good moderately high stakes games, you should visit TOronto's chinatown and west end... there are so many "private clubs" and the average limit is 15-30 and 20-40 but it is not uncommon to find a 50-100 game...just don't go where Im at or ill have to break your bankroll and legs.... just kidding, I couldn't break your bankroll..lol I used to work at some of these places for extra $$$ when I was in high school...If you want to find these games, just go to the G.B.H casino and play at one of the higher or no limit tables and you will most likely get invited to several different joints...



J