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Topic: Question on waking hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: Slimfrinky (Apr 30, 2006 09:55AM)
Hi all,

Being a mentalist I thought I might expand my mind a bit and learn some hypnosis. So I picked up the "New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism" by McGill, and now I have a question about waking hypnosis.

From all the examples that are given in the book, it seems to me that the sugestion should be done properly as long as you speak with an air of authority, always act like everything will work out, always look them right in the eyes, and have them convinced that you have powers of some sort.

Seems to be that a good starting place for hypnosis would be to do one or two psuedo-effects, and then move on to the waking hypnosis. That way they see what you can do, and that will implant in their mind that you can do certain things. After that, if you act with an air of authorrity, you should be able to do almost any waking hypnosis test as long as it isn't to outlandish.

Am I hitting the mark here, or not? Remember, I'm an absolute beginer at this, so I ,oght spund like a moran for asking these questions, but I am trying to learn.

If I'm right about that, I think that maybe doing the old locked eyes trick would be nice to get the idea in their heads, and then do the locked hands test, and so forth.

Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 30, 2006 02:40PM)
If you want a short opinion, your right and your wrong.

Kreskin does what you suggest to do. BUT more than one or 2 tests.

Second your skipping arround in the book and not reading everything. The things you want to do are being done AFTER an induction. Read it all, not only parts.

So if you want an actual opinion you shouldn't mix the 2. It takes away from each art. Learn more mind reading stuff.

IF you insist on mixing them, as most do, then do ONLY the psuedo hyp stuff. YOU can't miss that way. Trying suggestions will eventually result in your missing and you look horrible. Do the sure thing, so your mentalilsm does NOT suffer as a result also.

I know lots who mix mental tricks with hypnosis. Let me just say I can't tell you how many, (at least one a show) tell me how much better the show is when your not doing that. They come up and compare and tell me "I saw this other guy who did these silly tricks first, he must not have been as good".

There is no credability added. An opening act who is a mentalist will help tremendously, doing it your self will really not.
Message: Posted by: Slimfrinky (Apr 30, 2006 05:03PM)
Ah ha! Now I know you arn't a mentalist! I'm not skipping through the book at all, I'm reading straight from the begining to the end, it's just that right now I happened to be in the waking hypnosis part and was a bit confused! And there is no mention of inductions in my book before it gets to Waking Hypnosis. If you have the book, look it up in the table of contents yourself. I'm on chapter 11, and if you look at the book there is no mention fo inductions of any kind until chapter 18. Please try to refrain from accusing people of things until you know the facts of the situation. You'll find that it helps you seem like a much nicer guy. (and by the way, if I seem rude right now it's becuase I just woke up and I have an absesed tooth. I'mnot trying to be rude myself, although I'm srure I'm coming across that way. I'm sorry if I am)

I am now revoking your credentials as a mentalist! (kidding)

Here is why I'm learning the hypnosis. It's the old frog in a pan thing. If you just toss the frog on the pan, it jumps off, but if you turn up the heat slowly, you get to have frog legs for lunch.

So I want to start my act with things people believe are real. Here's an example (not my show, but you'll get the point)

Magic Square
Memory Stunt
Hypnotic stunt or two.
Then move into some 'light mentalism'
End with the strongest mental effect I can.

The therory is that since the audience readily accepted the first couple of things as being real demonstrations, so thir guard is now down. now when the mentalism shows up in the act, they will be more likeey to accept it as possibly being real.

I wasn't planning on mixing them. I was just going to use hypnotism (pseudo or not) to slowly increase credability to help suspend disbelief when the impossible starts to happen.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 30, 2006 07:58PM)
OK since your absessed I won't lash you verbally.

BUT when did I EVER say I was a mentalist? Your in the wrong section if you want one. I actually prefer to entertain my audience as opposed to mentalism.

Perhaps if you FINISH the book, all your questions will be answered.

As I said it does not really increase credability. Here is why. Mentalism is "tricks". Hypnosis is not. To do hypnosis properly requires a LOT more than you are allowing for. And a lot more than I am willing to elaborate on here.

IF you do they hypnotic stunts and they go over well, you may be setting yourself up for a bad thing. What I mean is lets say they are expecting MORE hypno stuff. YOU can't do it. Then what? They spend the rest of the show saying, man I wish he did more hypnosis stuff.

IF they have ever seen a hypnosis show, they may be expecting some of the post hypnotic stuff they saw at the end. You can't do it. You set up to fail in other words. A process we call "digging your own grave, and paynig for the shovel".

Hypnosis also brings with it some forms of disbelief, which can not properly be dealt with as you are wanting to do.

It also has a certian built in "failure rate" which again can not be properly accounted for in your attempt. IF you do fail, as your show is going along, all the "credability" you have, is POOF GONE.

Oh and whatever you call it, you ARE INDEED MIXING THEM. Sorry to be unclear but the same performer doing the 2 arts in the exact same show is mixing them indeed.

I am saying that you should do some mentalism effects that are sure fire at the beginning. The giant memory is fantastic. Sure the pseudo hyp stuff works well, but like I said if you don't follow it up, why do it at all? It sets you up to look bad.

There is some fantastic mental effects out there that really do what you say you want too. Why bother setting yourself up like this?

do the right mentalism and you have no need to worry about suspention of disbelief. (a term which I despise anyhow, but that is another thread)
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Apr 30, 2006 08:29PM)

You need to get some sleep. Some of us "mentalists" do entertain. ;)

The stunts can work, depending on how you frame them in the presentation.
For example, stuck hands or magnetic fingers could be framed as psychic tests, not hypnosis tests. Mith the power of your mind you are influenceing their actions and behaviour. Learning the stunts, which in most cases are "body magic" and applying them in a different context is fine, and done all the time. (McDill did just this when he wrote his books on stage work for mentalsim and hypnosis.)

Referring to them as hypnosis could open the can of worms you mentioned. And if one does this type of presentation, he or she shoud be prepaired to deal with what you mentioned.

It is all on how you present and frame your material.

On a side note (yet again) as a "psychic entertainer" (often categorized as a mentalist) not everything I do is a trick. But this too, is for a different discussion. ;)

Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 30, 2006 11:33PM)

I believe your right.

My mentalist joke was simply that. I lashed out not at you and I think you know it LOL. I have seen my share of entertaining mentalism. Poor also, but magic and hypnosis and music and broadway suffer from the same thing.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Apr 30, 2006 11:44PM)
True enough, that's why I said "some."

Message: Posted by: Slimfrinky (May 1, 2006 12:11PM)
Ok Danny, let me explain a bit about how I present myself to my audience. I explain that everything I can do is the result of training my mind for years, and that there isn't anything that I can do that they can't do.

I then demonstrate some form of mathamatical stunt or memory trick.

A few of my favorites in this regard are magic squares, vedic mathamatics (doing difficult math in your head) on the math side, and on the memory side I'll have someone shuffle a deck of cards, and then I memorize the deck in about a minute, and then demonstrate it. For smaller crowds I would solve a mixed up rubik's cube while blindfolded. These are real demonstrations with minor amounts of trickery involved.

After this I wanted to do a hypnosis stunt or two. I wasn't planning on going "Now that I have shown off my mental talents, I'm going to break into a hypnosis show, and then move on to something else!"

I was just going to do one or two minor effects that show that it is possible to influence the thoughts and actions of others, without even ever bringing up the term hypnosis. After that I would move into the mentalism. If you think about the stucture of the show that I'm talking about you will see that I'm leading my audience down this primrose path where things start out believable, and if I keep the audience on my side, I should have no problem maintaining belivability throughout the whole show.

Another thing, when I do my shows, I make sure I'm never 100% right. That makes me TO perfect, and then the audience knows there is trickery.

The sequence of events is this. Talk about being able to train your mind to do increadable things, do a math stunt, move on to memory, then to hypnosis (without calling it that) to prove that you can influence others, and then on to mentalism, which will leave the audience wondering if I was able to influence them, or if I have actual powers.

But you know what, you're right. I'm not even going to bother learning this stuff. I'll just stick to psuedo-demonstrations, which are just as effective, if not more so. Plus they move quicker, and in some cases are more entertaining than the real thing.

All I was asking for was the answer to one simple question about waking hypnosis, and I got accused of being a bad entertainer, basicly called stupid, and accused of not actually studying the material I'm reading. Now ya, I could have finished the book first, but I thought that I could just ask one quick question and get a polite response like I'm able to at all the other forums in the Café. Apparently not in this one.

So you know what? You're right, forget hypnosis. There's no need for it in my show. I can just do some psuedo-demonstrations if I want, and I'm just not going to ask any other questions around here about hypnosis since apparently you can't ask questions in this specific fourum without being insulted. And I looked around at other posts in this fourum, and it seems to be a running theme. Someone asks a question, and they either get belittled or told to not even bother trying.

Now I'm sure there are some great guys out there who do this stuff, and TonyEye seems to be one of them, and I appologize to all the people out there who ARN'T rude, but I've got to much going on in my life to be insulted over the internet by some annoymous jerk.

I've got leg problems that are getting worse to the point that I have to use a cane, an absessed tooth, my fiance attempted to commit suicide a month ago so I had to have her committed, money problems, someone broke in my house last week, and I've been having flashbacks to when I was in the military and had to kill some people from seeing all the blood from when my fiance decided (apparently at random) to slice her wrists open with a razor blade after taking all of my pain medication. Plus due to all the pyschological stuff I'm going through, I can't concentrate on my classes, so I'm failing half of them right now, and normally I'm a straight A student. I've been looking into hypnotism if anything as a way to keep my mind off of all the stuff that I'm having to deal with in life right now. I thought that maybe I could learn something cool and it might just cheer me up some. But no, instead I have to deal with people insulting me and telling me I'm an idiot.

All I'm trying to do is learn some new skills that I can use in life, and do something productive with my time rather than wallowing in self-pity. And I get insulted for it. Well ain't that just great? Maybe I'll just go back to doing card tricks, at least no one insults you for asking questions about how to do a better side steal.
Message: Posted by: Slimfrinky (May 1, 2006 12:20PM)
And in case you are interested in whats been going on in my life, read this post.


That might clue you in on why I seem a little grumpy when I'm having to deal with people who are so cowardly they have nothing better to do than insult you from behind a computer screen.
Message: Posted by: Slimfrinky (May 1, 2006 12:32PM)
I do want to say one last thing real quick. I'm sorry if I came across as a jerk Danny, but I feel like you just decided to insult me an not answer my question for the heck of it.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. Who knows? I'm sure that in real life you're a great guy, and if we ever meet in real life I'll buy you a beer to make up for ME acting like a jerk. I'll be honest, I went off the deep end for a bit there, and I'm sorry about that, I don't have a good excuse, and I'm not going to try to make one. Just try to understand that I've been through a lot lately, and I didn't mean to take it out on you, I just did. What can I say, it's been a bad year.

And you are right about one thing, I should just stick to psuedo effects unless I'm going to do a whole hypnosis show. And I'm still wondering if anyone is going to answer my initial question about waking hypnosis because I am still wondering.
Message: Posted by: Prof. JW (May 1, 2006 01:06PM)
Slimfrinky I wish you the very best both for your personal life as well as your study. Hanging in there, Bro! You can make it...and this too shall pass.

About Waking Hypnosis I'd like to share with you an excellent article from Steven Heller, Ph.D. and Terry Steele's Monsters and Magical Sticks: There is no such thing as hypnosis? book (see below). I hope you'll find it useful:

"Ericksonian Hypnosis -- Covert Hypnosis"

One evening, a group of friends and I were having dinner at a local restaurant. Our waiter was very distracted and he appeared to be agitated and depressed. He was abrupt, slow and unfriendly. As a result, our service left a great deal to be desired. Since I wanted to have an enjoyable evening, I decided to "talk funny" to him in order to help him feel better.

As he walked by our table holding a coffee pot, I touched his arm and said, "I'm sorry that you forgot that special night ... with that special person ... those exciting things that happened ... those very warm feelings that would embarrass you to talk about ... since we are all strangers."

For a moment his face went blank; he looked up to his left; his face then lift up and he said, "How do you know about that?" He then smiled and began to laugh, and his whole attitude changed as if by magic. He said, "Wow. that was some night. I don't know how you know about it."

The next time he came to our table, I said to him, "Wasn't it simply amazing that when you remember those happy, warm feelings, your attitude continues to change, and you continue to feel even better?"

We received a delightful service throughout the rest of the evening. What was even nicer, was that as we left he told us that we were one of the nicest parties he had ever waited on. He also asked us to be sure and ask for him whenever we returned.

Now, I have absolutely no idea as to what he hallucinated, but my communication resulted in his going back into his own history. He then found an experience that filled in the blanks, and that memory helped him to change his whole attitude in a matter of seconds. Of course, there's no such thing as hypnosis, and if there is, he should have gone deeper and deeper into a trance.

In addition I’d like also to share with you the possible definition of Waking Hypnosis itself i.e.

The definition is: "Suggestions (inductions) that are given to an individual (people) in a certain manner while in a normal state of consciousness that achieve a level of hypnotic trance without the use of the usual relaxed state."

This simply means that while communicating with an individual (people), a hypnotist is able to combine his/her body language along with his/her words to by-pass the critical factor of that particular individual (people) conscious mind and implant ideas that effect change. The reason waking hypnosis is so effective is that, because the client does not know you are using a hypnotic technique, their analytical, judgmental and refractive tendencies do not come into play. As long as the suggestions are not offensive to them they are allowed to enter into the subconscious mind and their bio-computer can begin to be re-programmed.
(Note: I borrowed most of the wording from Kein).

Take care and once again best wishes to you,
Prof. JW
Message: Posted by: leapinglizards (May 1, 2006 01:10PM)
When I first arrived here, I felt Danny ALWAYS came accross that way... Now I realize it's just him and we have to love him for who he is ;)

And of course, he knows his stuff-
Message: Posted by: HypnotizeAmerica (May 1, 2006 08:23PM)
Can I be the president of the Danny Doyle fan club?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 1, 2006 08:33PM)
You will be in a club by yourself.

Posted: May 1, 2006 4:36pm
Your in a club by yourself
Message: Posted by: Slimfrinky (May 2, 2006 12:16AM)
Prof JW, thank you for your information. That was the information I was looking for. I think that they should have put the 'Waking Hypnosis' section either later in the book or explained in more thoroughly.

Posted: May 1, 2006 10:28pm
Look Danny, I'm not even going to dignify you with any type of rebutal. If you want to fight and argue, then send me a pm or email me. No need for it to be in public.

Although I do want to make one point clear. Mentalism is not my career. I have done pain shows before, but it's not my main line of work. Although I have a lot of shows that I will be doing this summer for free for various Katrina Relief organizations. I spend the money to create the shows, and even bought some items on how to promote yourself on the radio so I can get more tickets sold. This is not my profession, but I do consider it to be a serious artform. Performing mentalism has given me a chance to help my community recover after the hurricane. (slimfrinky now predicts that Danny will insult him for giving away free shows to charity)

Carreer wise, I work in the IT industry. Just in case you were wondering.

I don't know why you desided to have a problem with me in the first place, all I did was ask one qustion that you decided to give the vaugest possible answer to, but if you have something you want to say to me, shoot me an e-mail and we can talk it out like a couple of men.

If you don't want to, then fine, at least I tried to give you a chance to talk about what your problem with me is. Maybe you feel threatened because I'm *gasp* trying to learn something?

Shoot me an email is you want Danny. slimfrinky@gmail.com If you have a problem with me, just email me, tell me what it is, and maybe we can work it out.

But other than that, I'm done. I'm not even going to come back and look at this fourum after finding out what type of people that I have to deal with. No offence to the rest of you who were rather kind and curtious, it's just that Danny seems to frequent the hypnosis fourum quite frequently, and I'm just not in the frame of mind where I feel like dealing with his additude.

I feel that I was wrong in going off on him, and appologized for it, and still he desided to act like a jerk. Quite frankly, I'm man enough to take an appology from almost anyone. In fact last week my house almost got robbed (I was home, so I subdued the kid) and I even accepted the appology of the kid who tried to do it.

To put things plain and simple, I think we can act like adults, but apparently some people have nothing better to do than be insulting to people who are asking honest questions and trying to learn. So, see you later, if any of you frequent the mentalist fourums, I'm in there a lot. And if you are ever in Mississippi, you are still invited over for iced twa.

See ya.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 2, 2006 02:51AM)
Boo hoo. Waaa

Sorry pal came from the Keys to Branson. Did a LOT of hurricane efforts. Before that 9/11 so not up my alley to insult anyone for charity work. But nice try.

Glad you won't be posting again. (un huh).

But if you look back at it, I DID answer your question even though you accused me of not doing it.

YOU started insulting me and lashing out not me. So then you want ME to appologise?

Please post a quote of me calling you a bad entertainer. I don't recall doing it but please do. If I did, I am sorry. Show me in my first post where you lashed out at me where I insulted YOU as an entertainer. Where I called ANYONE a bad entertainer.

You can't because it dosn't exist. You read something not there and then took it out on me bacause your feeling poorly. NOT MY FAULT BUDDY.

"maybe your wrong, maybe your right, who knows?". Well I will tell you I FOR ONE know. So does Tony. You lash out and get angry when indeed I answered your question, and didn't insult you at all.

well since your not reading too bad. Maybe you could explain yourself a bit better.

As I siad I wish you the best in life. But perhaps you shouldn't read between the lines so much and just read what is written. It may be a bit more clear that way.
Message: Posted by: mota (May 2, 2006 03:04AM)
Too bad he left the forum...I just found my material on waking hypnosis.

Ford Kross wrote a booklet called "Suggestive Mentalism Introduction", among other things. In that booklet he teaches his waking hypnosis routine. No formal induction, just locking arms and stuff like that.

You might want to check e-bay. If you dig up Ford he may or may not sell to you, depending on his evaluation of you as a mentalist/hypnotist and person.

You won't find Ford on this forum...he is probably banned for this lifetime and any reincarnations that come up. He has been a bit outspoken on occasion.

Also check into Ford's DVD's he is selling of his cable TV show he used to do called "Mind Probe". Again, check ebay. On one of these he performs his waking hypnosis routine so you can see it.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (May 2, 2006 03:20AM)
Ford is a nice and loveable man. But he is a man of his convictions, and at least you know where you stand with him. His material is very well thought out, practical, and real world tested.

Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 2, 2006 03:24AM)
Too bad he is gone now.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (May 2, 2006 03:39AM)
Not gone, just not visible here.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 2, 2006 03:50AM)
Yea I can hear him crying from here
Message: Posted by: hypnotize (May 4, 2006 10:59AM)
I would check "Waking Hypnosis" by Gerald Kein. Great DVD.
Message: Posted by: Prof. JW (May 5, 2006 01:45PM)
Enjoy watching, viewing, and learning Kein's DVD!

All the best Bro,
Prof. JW :)