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Topic: An Acknowledgement Would Have Been Nice
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 4, 2006 01:51AM)
They May Be Little But They’re Mine

You know being that life is short we all would appreciate a little acknowledgement for our contributions and accomplishments in life and since no one acknowledging mine, I'm going on record to date and saying that the dice hold out with the two prongs is mine of which I made and likewise the punch is mine and also made by me.

Respectfully

Doc
Message: Posted by: SDR (May 4, 2006 02:32AM)
Do you have any proof?
Message: Posted by: Daegs (May 4, 2006 02:52AM)
Doc's word is good enough in my book... but I would believe Steve would gladly acknowledge its Doc's if asked directly, unless there was some splitup I wasnt aware of...

What incentive would Doc have to come on here and BS about it? It would be easy enough for Steve or Sal to prove him wrong and then his word wouldnt mean much, and in the past Doc has always kept his word from what I've seen and been pretty honest...

Have you seen his Dice Holdout vid? very killer for the right situations.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 4, 2006 04:29AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-04 03:32, SDR wrote:
Do you have any proof?
[/quote]
Yes them and God and God Can't Lie. Don't get me started because many have been robbed out of a lot of their ideas, accomplishments, titles and inventions throughout centuries and in many cases never been given credit for it. If you don't believe me just check your history books.

If we had $1,000 when we’d go hustling, the first thing Bugs would do is put up $1,000. If we won he’d say, ‘Do you want to bet $2,000?’ We were in Johnston City when he played Fats. We had $1,100. He played Fats a set of banks for a $1,000. So he beat Fats the set of banks and then he played him ten-eight for $2,000. So he winds up winning the $2,000. Now we got $4,100. So Fats said, ‘I’m not going to play anymore banks.’ So Bugs said, ‘I’ll tell you what I’m going to do. I’m going to throw these balls [the cue ball and one object ball] on the table and wherever they stop I’ll bet you $4,000 I bank it.’

1P: He would bet the whole $4,000 on one bank shot?
JH: At first nobody would bet, but then he threw the balls on the table and when they stopped it was in such a bad spot that now everybody jumped up and wanted to get in. They said, ‘You said wherever those balls stop?’ So Bugs says, ‘That’s what I said.’ So now everybody wanted to bet! So Bugs got down and made the ball straight back for the $4,000. He had more heart than all these guys playing pool. He’s my hero. He’s part of me.

Why I Showed Up

The only reason ya'll know of me now is because I didn't want any of my ideas, inventions and moves stolen and posted by some of ya'll with your name attached to my stuff like on (videodepot) and lo and behold what I said came true and now you're asking me for proof? Sal on his video didn't even know where to place the punch at on his thumb to punch the card he demonstrated.

The only reason I don't talk about the some of the horrible moves, things and deals that I see on many of these DVD's is because many of these guys are my friends and silence is golden; and some of you whom I've met know just what I'm talking about. Let me shut up.

Doc
Message: Posted by: sportshooter (May 4, 2006 07:14AM)
Doc,
It's great to have you back! Thanks for letting us know those were your moves, credit should be given where credit is due.
Regards,
SS
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 4, 2006 10:09AM)
I sincerely apologize to all who read my post and think that it's mean and maybe you're right and the street side of me has popped out.
My things are tiny yes but they're mine and I want to be known for them. If you made something wouldn't you want to be acknowledge for it? Even if you don’t I do. Not acknowledging is the issue here because I gave them the items as a free gift because of our friendship like they in turn gave me stuff of which I did acknowledge so it would only be right to do likewise; that’s all I'm saying.

Signed

Just Thinking Out Loud

Doc
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (May 4, 2006 10:25AM)
It's all good Doc. There is no reason NOT to expect credit when it's due. And I think it's reasonable to be disappointed when the credit is not forthcoming. It wouldn't be very difficult for those that have gained from your knowledge (and you willingness to share it with them) to give a little "shout out" when they are talking about the various things.

Vandy
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (May 4, 2006 11:10AM)
I have never met Doc. But the few times I have communiccated with him I have found no reason to not believe what he has said.

Doc is certainly a wealth of knowledge and certainly does need to be givin credit for somethings.

Good to see you here again Doc.

Randy
Message: Posted by: scorch (May 4, 2006 01:30PM)
There's only one way that you can be sure to receive credit for your ideas: publish them! If you want to sit on them, somebody will probably beat you to the punch and you won't have anyone but yourself to blame for it.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (May 4, 2006 01:35PM)
Scorch, I believe in Docs last post he stated that he was mad when he wrote the original post.
Message: Posted by: Daegs (May 4, 2006 03:10PM)
Lol... fats was certainly not the best banker even if he talked it. And a banker beating fats was not out of the ordinary, Lefty regularly got him AFAIK.
Message: Posted by: SDR (May 5, 2006 11:45AM)
I was just interested if you could back up your statement with facts, no need for the hostility.
Message: Posted by: silverking (May 5, 2006 12:47PM)
If Doc says he invented a specific gaff, he invented it....end of story.

As I, and many others have learned, Doc is always straight up when speaking on the Café.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 5, 2006 01:35PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-05 12:45, SDR wrote:
I was just interested if you could back up your statement with facts, no need for the hostility.
[/quote]

You may be right about me being a little hostile but why shouldn't I be? You basically called me a liar. Why is it that I have to produce proof? Do you believe that they made every item that they displayed on their GPS videos and still had time to learn how to cheat etc.?

What proof can I produce that will prove to you or anyone else here that I gave them those items? Only them, angels and God knows I did because no one else was there when I gave them the things so on that note I have no proof except what I previously stated.

For your info. the only reason I'm at this site is because I gave my opinion of "The New Phantom's of the Card Table" book by Gazzo stating that my punch dealing ability was like that of Walter Scott's and Gazzo's and when questioned "Why would someone believe a cheat" I had the same response now as I did then and when I presented my questionnaire on making a punch and how to use it; know one wrote back answering my questions on it.

For the record the only person that ever made a punch that was better than mine that I met (just by a fraction) was Gazzo and that's only because his was manufactured.

Something else you need to know...The only reason I gave that one away is because he only had one particular type in his show case (and no I'm not talking about the fake chips nor the stick holdouts) therefore mine would've looked nice displayed there being that I don't work with inferior items once I invent new ones. To view my new invention (The Eagle Claw Dice Holdout) search for my dice switching video and see me take the World Title for Dice Switching of which I got the idea from my mentor Steve Forte after watching his video.

Let Me Clarify Something

I Did Not Invent The Two Prong Dice Hold-Out of which you can see pics of in an old How to Detect Cheat Book by Al Lampkin (The New Books doesn't have the pic) and the K.C. Card Co. Blue Book and I Did Not Invent the Punch. Being that I'm poor and couldn't find it, I made the items by taking my time, looking at the pictures and reading the instructions.

This why I don't understand many of you here that always want info. and stuff but you never get down and get your hands dirty by doing what you have to do in order to become the best; if I can invent so can you and when you do post it like I did so no one can claim your stuff and ideas as theirs.

P.S. Silverking thanks for the shout out it's always great to make a new friend and Vandy thanks for your help in advancing my dice skills.

Signed

The Doctor

P.S. You see I give credit where credit is due.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 5, 2006 06:36PM)
I think it's difficult to give credit to a hustler as the hustlers don't want to be known. I sometimes read magicians say this move was shown to me by a smart gambler or things like that. What you should do is write you own book like Erdnase in a moody name if want to tell every one anything that is.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 5, 2006 11:03PM)
It would be nice to bring Steve Forte's Casino Protection Book into one of my gambling spots and show my name in the area where my dice device is located and then present Sal's Poker Cheat Exposed DVD on my 6 Gig iPod and fast forward to the area where he's showing off my punch as he says "A gambler by the name of Doc gave me this."

I already show off the Damien Neiman and myself footage on my Laptop/iPod when I met him in Atlantic City at his Shade Premiere of which I would have never met him without the help of Jason England. I also show off the footage of Darwin, Andrew and myself and also the footage of Gazzo and myself so why wouldn't I do the same for them?

When one accomplishes something they at least want a pat on the back for it. All I can do now is show the footage of Steve, Sal, Rod the Hop and myself with them when I show the GPS series and Sal's Poker Cheat DVD just like I show the Shade Extra footage of Damien and then show him and I together.

Signed

Just Thinking Out Loud

Doc
Message: Posted by: silverking (May 6, 2006 11:18AM)
Doc's sentiment is accurate, and history supports what he posted.
It's all there in the history books as hard fact, even though some would like to keep the topic a subjective one.
Message: Posted by: SDR (May 6, 2006 11:29AM)
I just wanted to know if you could back up your statement for your sake. A lot of people claim things, probably did come up with them, but cannot prove it. I was interested to know, I didn't have an opinion either way.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 6, 2006 12:28PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-06 11:28, scorch wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-05-05 14:35, Unknown419 wrote:
You may be right about me being a little hostile but why shouldn't I be? You without words called me a liar. Why is it that I have to produce proof?[/quote]

Well, though I see it was edited out, you called everybody else racists without any proof or substantiation. How is that any different?
[/quote]

How can I be racist when it is ya'll who have helped me throughout the years to get to the level that I am at now and is still helping me. I’m not racist because I speak about my people it is you who is. My people is all I know about as I listen to the stories so who can I speak about? Why is it that I don’t see stories about us is what I’m really saying? Is it because you don’t know about us or you’ve heard only stories about your people. You speak but you really don't know what's going on...so I'll tell you.

What’s Really Going On Behind the Scene?

I'm getting PM’d from new posters who never posted and is very knowledgeable (the big boys) telling me that I shouldn't be going in this direction and talking about the things I do because it will alienate me from being amongst them. What am I to do? Stick with helping ya'll or go with them?

My mother always taught me Not To Burn Any Bridges cause you might just have to cross over that same bridge again in life and since I always listen to my mother...Big Boys I'd rather stick with the little guys here at this forum and at Louis Tannens, Hank Lee's, the kids at Maui Taco's, Wesley, John, Gene Maze, Doug Edwards, Carl Polaris, Harry Loraine, Bill Kalush, Lou Lancaster, Ken Krenzel, Alan Halcon, Jeff Wessmiller, Craig, The guy who wrote my card memory program and to those of you who helped me advance my knowledge to whom I forgot to mention I’m sorry but I'd rather be with and around you guys any day of the week because I have a good time every time I see ya’ll.

I always say when gambling you can't break a broke man (of which I'm already broke) so there is nothing that you can take away from me. The lives of my friends and students who read my post is more important to me than anything else in this world and I Don't Want Them Being Fooled and Being a Sucker Like I Was. Even though cheating in any game or at anything is wrong at least you should know the facts.

I've purchased every gadget that I need to cheat with, I got all the videos/books/pics that I want, I have this site and others for more information, I have the magicians as my friends all I need now is a movie deal to tell it like it is from the other side of which I will raise the $30,000 if need be or I'll get some investors. Whatever the case maybe...little people I've went to the promised land and got kicked out like I always do so I'm crossing that same bridge coming back home that I didn’t burn to hang with ya'll...the little down to earth guys.

If ya’ll (Big Boys) don't want me around ya'll it's ya'll lost not mine because for 44 years of not knowing you I did just fine and since I have me enough information of whatever I want and friends that'll last me a life time I hope and pray to live another 44 years without you…

”As I sit in the old folks home like my teacher Walter Scott someone at this forum might search me out and voila there will be a book written about me.”

Signed By “On The Road Again”

The Doctor

P.S. Readers once you make it to the top it’s not all what it’s cracked up to be at least it wasnt' for me. Put this information in your pocket and when you reach the top and find out what I said to be true just say Doc told me so.
Message: Posted by: scorch (May 6, 2006 01:34PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-06 13:28, Unknown419 wrote:
I’m not racist because I speak about my people it is you who is.
[/quote]

Let me be clear: I never said you were a racist. I don't know you and would have no basis to make such a statement. I said that you called others (including, now, me, apparently!) racists without any substantiation. Though many might see that kind of low-class mudslinging as a form of racism. I am not speaking about "your people." I am speaking about you and the views that you have expressed, saying that ideas were stolen from you because of racism. That's the attitude of somebody who inflicts victim status on himself.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 6, 2006 01:59PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-06 14:34, scorch wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-05-06 13:28, Unknown419 wrote:
I’m not racist because I speak about my people it is you who is.
[/quote]

Let me be clear: I never said you were a racist. I don't know you and would have no basis to make such a statement. I said that you called others (including, now, me, apparently!) racists without any substantiation. Though many might see that kind of low-class mudslinging as a form of racism. I am not speaking about "your people." I am speaking about you and the views that you have expressed, saying that ideas were stolen from you because of racism. That's the attitude of somebody who inflicts victim status on himself.
[/quote]

Maybe we both have a little bit of misunderstanding since we're typing and not talking face to face. I'm not racist and your not racist and that's good for me. We're just talking as men here and you're definitely entitled to your opinion. Scorch nothing was stolen from me I just said an acknowledgement would have been nice.

If we misunderstood one another all we have to do is rectify it. Again they of whom I spoke of are my friends and they stole nothing from me, as a matter of fact they had way more stuff than I would ever consider purchasing and maybe this is why they forgot to mention it because so many people give them things. I wrote I was just thinking out loud. You know the Devil always throw something to an idle mind to make him think or do something wrong.

I believe that just like a salad wouldn't be a real salad if it just had lettuce but when you add all the different vegetables like tomatoes, onions, carrots the crotons etc. with some Ranch Dressing now that makes a salad; I guess that's why God made all nations of men from one man because he wanted to add a little color (different ethnic groups) to His salad (World). So on that note "Can We All Just Get Along?"

Peace My Brother

Your New Friend

Doc
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (May 6, 2006 09:17PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-06 13:28, Unknown419 wrote:
Readers once you make it to the top it’s not all what it’s cracked up to be at least it wasnt' for me. Put this information in your pocket and when you reach the top and find out what I said to be true just say Doc told me so.
[/quote]
Hey Doc, I just wanted to jump in here and say something that a lot of Café members already know. That Doc is the real deal. Of the old school of hard work and earning the moves.

Often when one from the old school doesn't get credit they will tell others about their ideas and where they came from. In magic there are people that take ideas. others use ideas and somehow forget to give credit of where they got the idea.

Good to have you back in the Café Doc and thanks for a great read.
Message: Posted by: JTW (May 7, 2006 09:41AM)
Doc While we have never met, I have met Sal. One thing I can say about Sal is that he is a very giving person. If you had gone to him FIRST (meaning after you had seen the DVD) many of the problems that you have may have been taken care of. Instead you go on a public forum to call them (Steve and Sal) out.
I hate to break this to you but the burden of proof is on you, because you claim the moves and devices are yours. The posters that have come to back you up and the fact that you mentioned the footage of you with many of the greats makes what you say believable but you offer no proof. You want to B*#$% about people stealing your moves and publishing them, I understand where you’re coming from, its happened to me as well (and I REALLY have no "name" in this art). The point is YOU cried foul, YOU must supply the proof to the community that what you claim is true. Otherwise, and I hate to say this, its just another grasp by someone at getting their name in the books.
To be clear I am not saying you aren't being truthful and I most certainly am not calling you a liar, I'm neither a judge nor a jury. If you want things to change you need to bring the proof.

JTW
Message: Posted by: silverking (May 7, 2006 10:51AM)
The visitors to this forum demand JUSTICE!
Message: Posted by: JTW (May 7, 2006 03:14PM)
And another quality post by Silverking. I do not post often here but I read a lot including your posts...
Are you insinuating that if someone reads this thread and hasn't posted as prolifically as you, that they are not entitled to an opinion on the subject?
Doc brought the whole issue up. He wants the credit he has to provide the sources it’s really quite simple.
Many thanks for an insightful discussion,
"merely a visitor"

JTW
Message: Posted by: iamslow (May 7, 2006 03:32PM)
Woo hooooo!! This is getting good! :cheers: :pepsi:
Message: Posted by: Top Hat (May 7, 2006 03:55PM)
I am outraged.
Message: Posted by: silverking (May 7, 2006 03:59PM)
[quote]
another quality post by Silverking.
[/quote]
Thank You for your kind words.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 7, 2006 08:48PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-07 10:41, JTW wrote:
Doc ... the burden of proof is on you, because you claim the...devices are yours. YOU must supply the proof to the community that what you claim is true.

The point is YOU cried foul.

To be clear I am not saying you aren't being truthful and I most certainly am not calling you a liar, I'm neither a judge nor a jury.

JTW
[/quote]

Doc ... the burden of proof is on you, because you claim the...devices are yours. YOU must supply the proof to the community that what you claim is true.

Why is the burden of proof on me? The burden of proof comes upon me when the individual deny that I didn't give them what I said I gave them. They did not deny anything as of yet and until then...Case Dismissed.

The point is YOU cried foul.

I didn't Cry Foul "I said that it would have been nice if they acknowledged the things that I gave them. What if they honestly forgot? If so you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You know I believe that it's the Devil that's behind the people who instigate issues when there is none. To err is human so if they forgot are they not human? I said I was thinking out loud and now disbelieving readers want me to go up against my friends...for what because they most likely made an honest mistake? Friendship is more important to me.

If you want things to change you need to bring the proof.

So what you're telling me is this...if I bring proof or they admit it that they are going to take back all the Casino Protection Books and redo them over just to put that little known fact in it and Sal take back all of his DVD's and re-shoot just a particular segment just to satisfy me? I don't think so but if you like by all of Steve's books and Sal's DVD and sponser their stuff being redone and published and then all will be well but until then...I guess I'm gonna have to put an "H" on my chest and Handle It.

As far as that punch being mine...just ask Gazzo, Steve F., Sal P., Darwin O., Andrew W., Bob R., Damien N., Bill Kalush., Meir Yedid, Ricky Jay, Ricky Jay's Manager, Herb Z., Wesley J., Craig K., Jeff W., The Staff at Hank Lee's, The Staff at Louis Tannen's, The Kids at Maui Taco's, Doug E., Carl P., Gene Maze., Lou Daria, Rod the Hop, Allan A., Alan H., Mark Mitton, Gene Matsuura, Expert Magician, David Ben and my friend who taught me the Endless Loop.

All of these gentlemen have seen my punch and only Craig and Alan H. have seen me make one in front of their face teaching them.

Oh I forgot to say that I gave many of these here guys one of my punches too...I hope I don't have to prove that too. lol

Respectfully

Doc
Message: Posted by: halcon (May 7, 2006 10:12PM)
Wow! I'm gone for a few and this happens.

I concur, with many on this thread who are backing Doc in this matter. Doc has no reason to lie, especially in a public forum. Not once, have I known Doc not to give credit to someone, in regards to something he uses. I visited with him and he was generous enough to show me some very esoteric things, ALWAYS, giving credit where credit was due. He didn't have to, as I would have not doubted if he had come up with them on his own. the point is, If he's so willing to give acknowledgment, why would he lie about his own creations?

Only craig, myself, and a few others, who have actually been fortunate enough to have gone to Docs house, can with certainty, tell you why this man is telling the truth.

I would go so far as to say, if he claims to be the originator of these items, the burden to prove he's is telling the truth is not on him. I suggest, everyone calling him out prove he isn't telling the truth.

it seems ludacris, that people would bash him without having proof that he isn't telling the truth... what proof do you have he isn't?

Halcon
Message: Posted by: Mr.Tweed (May 8, 2006 02:00AM)
I might be a little dim-witted, but I have reread the craps chapter and can't find a mention of a hold out except on 264, and using the sleeve on 263. As I said, maybe I missed what it is that got you worked up, but those two references are to stuff that you can't hardly claim is unique to what you do.

Can you point out what specifically has sparked this. I don't know nothing about Sal, but Steve is well known for being one of the most straight up guys around, so this whole thing just sounds nuts.

I'll say one thing, you sure know a lot of magicians.

Best
J.Corey
Message: Posted by: Mar (May 8, 2006 08:46AM)
In his book, Forte does not acknowledge the makers of pictured items. I have not seen Sal's video. Does he acknowledge the maker of items shown, leaving you out?

Your two pronged dice holdout is quite unremarkable. Do you know many people that got down with it?

What is your punch, a bead with a needle in it?
Message: Posted by: JTW (May 8, 2006 09:08AM)
YW Silverking

So now it isn't a big deal...ok cool

I was mislead by your posts on the first page which was the sole reason for my response.

You want them to acknowledge your contribution but you don't want to do anything other than plead your case on an open forum...perfect.
Good luck,
JTW
Message: Posted by: halcon (May 8, 2006 09:41AM)
Mar, regardless of what it is, that's not the point. I am sure you have run across some great effects, only to find out it is a piece of tape on a card, or nylon from a stocking, again, not the point.

Halcon
Message: Posted by: SDR (May 8, 2006 09:55AM)
I'm aware that Doc is some kind of hero of yours (atleast you give that impression) but some people just aren't star struck. I'm certainly not,especially after the replies I've had to simple questions with no opinionated remarks in them. Doc has detailed some very sticky situations in his tales of Cheating, I'm sure he doesn't need your protection on a message board.
Message: Posted by: Mr.Tweed (May 8, 2006 10:05AM)
Exactly. For a start, he should point out what the heck he's talking about in the Forte book. Give us a page number - then those of us who have the book can stop scratching their heads.

Put up or stop publishing statements on the internet that disrespect one of the most respected experts in the world.

There's no 'agenda' here except Doc's - or perhaps his 'students'.

John P. Corey
Message: Posted by: Mr.Tweed (May 8, 2006 10:38AM)
Can this guy Doc please tell us what the heck he is talking about? Don't explain the gaff (not that he hasn't already tipped it to every magician and magic shop staff list on the continental US already) but please give us a page number for whatever has got him worked up. Otherwise it's just gasbagging and defamation

J.Corey
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (May 8, 2006 06:59PM)
Hey Doc, how YOU doin'? Wish I could get all these emotionally charged cardmen in a good old-fashioned poker game! My kinda play, don'tcha think?

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: edh (May 8, 2006 09:36PM)
O.K. this is just my opinion.

Doc has contributed to this forum for some time. He has given us magi's something to work with. And now he comes under attack.

But think... what if he is right? what if he has not been acknowledged? Wouldn't you be p*****g off.

Doc. has been here posting and trying to help. He has nothing to gain from it. Obviously because he is not marketing anything. Not like others on this board that do nothing but tote how great thier latest creation is. And review how great there cronie's product's are.
Message: Posted by: sunnydolan (May 8, 2006 09:43PM)
I have been around long enough to know that Doc does not lie. I usually try to stay out of arguments like this one, but I feel like some of the replys are given just to try to put down Doc. I agree with silverking 100%: "If Doc says he invented a specific gaff, he invented it....end of story."
Message: Posted by: Mar (May 8, 2006 09:50PM)
Chosse,

touche

So you would like to get us in a poker game? That would be very interesting. I remember you stating that you worked with a poker mob in the 70's for a few years. Did you move in the games or were you end getter.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 8, 2006 10:06PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-08 03:00, Mr.Tweed wrote:
I might be a little dim-witted, but…maybe I missed what it is that got you worked up… Can you point out what specifically has sparked this?
[/quote]

Duh, I got worked up because I said that “An Acknowledgement Would Have Been Nice."
[quote]
Those two references are to stuff that you can't hardly claim is unique to what you do.
[/quote]

Okay then where is yours? Point me to a video/DVD that displays one and its use. Out of all the best cheats in the country that I've met none neither had nor ever seen this hold out so where do you gamble at that every one has one and it's hardly unique?

Why I'm Getting Heated

Now this is what gets me pset...you see two holdouts with safety pins attached to it and you say that it's a sleeve hold out? I see that you know nothing about dice manipulation. These items when used were attached under your shirt or jacket and this is how the dice were brought into and out of play. I don't have Steve's book so I can't remember what's on page 263 but I saw no dice hold out that he had that goes up the sleeve EXCEPT for the other piece of apparatus that I gave him of which HE DID NOT EXPOSE in his book even though he might have mentioned it after seeing me do my dice switch at his home.

So let me get this straight what you're telling me is that a millionaire who has money at his disposal who wants one couldn't buy one and he had everything other cheating device imaginable? Either he knew nothing about it or he didn't know where to purchase one at like myself this is why I made one.

What is the problem here?

1. I looked in the Al Lampkin book and saw a 2 prong dice hold out device that no one I knew had so I made a few.

2. Being that Steve had a collection of gaffed dice hold-outs in his show case and being that he gave me items and let me film him, I in turn gave him items in return and one of them was the two prong brass colored dice hold out with the safety pin attached to it.

3. Why I Got Worked Up? Because you should stop trying to read more into something then is actually there. You’re making a mountain out of a molehill.
[quote]
Steve is well known for being one of the most straight up guys around, so this whole thing just sounds nuts.
[/quote]

How do you know this to be true…in our world you’re considered a sucker and since you’re not God and you definitely can’t read minds how do you know this…from what you heard? I’m a straight up kind of guy too but I don’t tell you every I know about everything and I can prove everything I say and some of you who have met me know this to be true because I showed them I wasn’t lying.

You’re Living in a La La World

Don't think that we (us hustlers) are all that nice because we smile in your face as you invite us over to your home because we're not. Don’t ya'll see my ruthlessness periodically burst out through my writings at you and I'm trying my hardest to be a Christian. If I’m acting like this towards you trying to be a Christian imagine what you’re up against with those who care nothing about you and don’t even believe in God.

The Con Game Is Strong

You magicians feel like we are your friends because we told you stuff that you never knew before; wrong…we’re not and if you don’t believe me consult your bible Gen. 3 and see what happened to Eve when she was told stuff that she never knew before. Did it help her or did it hurt her? All we’re doing is just throwing you some bait to reel your information in just like the Devil did to Eve.

Doc I don’t understand? Money is our God and anything that you or a cheat can teach us that will better us in order for us to get that money we will do and then show you obsolete stuff or nothing at all in return for your knowledge while saying within ourselves he’s just another sucker telling all he knows.

So now that you know this on that note was Steve really being straightforward with you or did you just get conned out of info.? Another question, if I show you 100 moves that won’t get the money and explain them logically to you was I straight forward with you or not? You do the math.

Note: I’m also not saying that Steve is not truly many of your friends because neither am I God and can read his mind I’m just speaking in general the mind of a hustler. My Christian side is telling you about our dark side that you don’t see since you’re naïve and gullible to a lot of things.

Being Gullible

There’s an author who frequents this forum who did a book on Martin Nash’s gambling stuff and after the book didn’t do as well as he liked, he learned that the only reason it didn’t is because those moves that Martin Nash did would never fly in a real game. This gentleman is slowly learning through experience what I had to learn through experience and this is why I’m publicly teaching (guiding) ya’ll through those pitfalls of con and hustling.

What Would Walter Scott Say To This?

[quote]
If you ask Scott directly whether he ever worked with a partner, as detailed in The Expert at the Card Table, he would always deny it. “Working with somebody is a thing I never wanted to do etc...(and will give you an excellent reason). But many of his stories tell tales of working with some partners, though they are usually unnamed.
[/quote]

You see Walter here got caught in a lie.

[quote]
Scott was an expert with dice as well as cards, an aspect of his work that he rarely mentioned except to say that dice provided a quicker way to beat a man.
[/quote]

Why did Scott rarely mention his dice skills? A hustler always got to have an ace in the hole that you know nothing about.

[quote]
“Vernon said he had a tough time with Kennedy and had to demonstrate some of his best moves before the gambler could be persuaded to perform the middle deal that he so badly wanted to see. One of those moves was Walter Scott’s second deal. Kennedy was amazed and said it was ‘one of the best I have ever seen, if you can do it without the “see saw.” Impressed by Vernon’s work, Kennedy returned the favor taking out four kings and putting them on the bottom of the deck and so on and so on.
[/quote]

Why did Kennedy give Vernon a hard time? He psychologically played (Conned) Vernon into showing him everything he knew regarding gambling until he found something that he could use so at that point as we say “fare exchange is not a robbery.” To hell with them magic tricks you show me something I can use now I show you something you can use.

The Walter Scott of Today

Steve today is like the Walter Scott of Yesterday. As legendary gamblers and famous magicians sought out Walter Scott to see and to learn likewise the famous magicians and legendary gamblers of today seek out Steve to learn and by conversation alone he knows who’s real and who’s not and for those who are real they show their appreciation by showing their favorite/best moves and by giving gifts and Steve does the same in return.
Now for you magicians who visit and guys who want to expose stuff the story is not the same for you (read between the lines). Now while I’m thinking about it…

A Note To Paul Wilson

In the gambling world it is said that you expose, talk or show too much of which I really don’t understand what they mean by this, I guess I do too, if this is true slow down you have more to lose than I. How is it that people can put out books and DVD’s exposing gambling stuff and it’s all right but when we talk (especially me) or do the same thing it not all right? Isn’t that being two-faced?

Paul I don’t care what people say about me because I write above the heads of the readers. The only ones who understand what I’m actually saying at times are the ones that are really getting upset only because they know too much. If you didn’t know the things that you know you would read right passed it without a thought but since you’ve read between lines now you say “oooh I’m gonna tell on you” like a little sissy.

99.9 % of the readers don’t even know what I’m talking about so why are ya’ll getting your briefs in a bundle over nothing? A fine example of this is the new 911 DVD; when everything was happening no one paid attention to a lot of things that was going on but now those who did pay attention to details are now exposing what they think really went on and it is very convincing to me; likewise when I write. Check out that DVD when you get the time.

Back to Straight Up Kind of Guy

Let’s read what is said about Walter Scott “Eddie McGuire had describe him as a ‘fluent talker, personality plus, shrewd, clever and with an abundance of brains.’ Put to misuse those traits became the perfect ammunition for the conman that Scott argued EVERY CHEAT MUST BE. It’s 10 percent manipulation and 90 per cent con. To be a good card man you have to be a confidence man to a certain degree. So on this note alone is Steve really a straight up guy or a confidence man…we’ll never know will we.

Me Now I’m A Confidence Man

Am I a straight up guy or a confidence man? I’m both, why because I have to be doing what I do because EVERY CHEAT MUST BE. So Doc what are you saying? I’m saying that you readers are getting information from my Christian side enlightening you on the dark side of our inner being. Why is it that even though I’m snatching mask off you can’t see that we all have the cunning traits of the Devil and you’re admiring us for it.

But Doc? As a Christian I’ve been commanded by my Lord to teach so you have no excuse if you don’t make into heaven. Who can better teach and talk to cheaters than a cheat? God directed me in this path for some reason unbeknown to me to teach ya’ll and even though I’m backsliding at the moment this is my job and this is why I previously wrote that my friends and student’s lives are more important to me than anything in this world especially more than being with the big boys.

As a cheat or a business man it’s always better to have an ace in the hole or a back up plan just in case everything falls through and Jesus is my ace in the hole or backup plan even though I’m a knuckle-headed son (not doing what I suppose to be doing). For those of you who have something to say about this as Steve Harvey said…Don’t Judge Me Because He Ain’t Through With Me Yet.

So now that you know how a hustler really is, are you sure from the bottom of your heart that he was straight up with you; a sucker (victim, someone who’s sleep to what’s really happening?) Do you think that from the bottom of your heart that he wrote everything that he knew in that Casino Protection Book to protect casinos? Well if you do… “We Welcome You To Munchkin Land.”

The Hustler's Code

Code # 1
To keep a sleeper (sucker/casinos) sleep. If you think that the casinos are not getting robbed all the time you are sadly mistaken. Why do you think that they have surveillance cameras? They give their footage to people such as Sal to examine because they can’t figure out what’s going on. Why would I give my footage to someone else if I know what’s going on? Are you reading between the lines?

They brain wash the public and cheats by showing off all them cameras to viewers that they have everything under control when they don’t. They can’t tell the public that occasional cheats are robbing them because every cheat in the world would try to come there so that’s a no, no.

In our world everybody got to eat…that means while we’re (the casino) is robbing the public (legally) you can rob us too (but don’t get caught). Didn’t Mr. Dowser write in a post to me “Doc that dice switch would’ve gotten by my box men?” What is that telling you? It’s telling me that they could still be robbed. Well then Doc? Don’t even think about it they don’t have to worry about me because I’m too scared to; I look at too many movies and I’m not fond of deserts.

Code # 2
I'm not allowed to show any hustler's stuff without permission and neither is that hustler allowed to show mine. This is the code of real hustlers and this is why we (the elite) can't let the real stuff out the bag with you magicians because you have nothing to lose but everything to gain trying to get fame or status when it is our goal to get the money.

Code # 3
If you show my stuff, I have the right to show yours. This here code is what keeps our secrets a secret amongst ourselves; and the stuff that we do show most likely (9 out of 10 times) is out dated and we no longer use it like I previously stated in my above post...I don't work with inferior items.

It is my belief that the REAL MAGICIAN'S like Dai Vernon, Ed Marlo etc. back in the day use to honor this code of silence and that's when magicians were magicians. You had to receive a certain magician status in order to learn the advanced techniques of the trade: Mr. Glenn Bishop can testify to this being that his father is one of the legends of that era.

Code # 4
Being that there is a hustler's code of silence this might be the reason why they did not mention my name because I'm a still active hustler and they didn't want any harm coming to me (their friend) but as I said before the Devil always bring evil thoughts to an idle mind even though innocent as it may sound lurks envy in the heart of man etc. and maybe this is what happened in my case and why I wrote "An Acknowledgement Would Have Been Nice." Now the Devil is working through you trying to get us into a word fight over an acknowledgement that by right shouldn't have been said maybe to save my life.

Note: No one has all the answers especially me being that I was a magician first so there is always room to learn if you're willing to listen and I listen very well.

Code # 5 No matter how mad and upset we get with each other we will always team up regardless to beat a sucker like you, split your money (in this case knowledge) and then get back to being mad with one another. So on that note don't get into something that you know nothing about thinking that we're like you magicians because we do this all the time with each other and then still work together because this is business. I don't have to like you and you don't have to like me, money is our goal and after we get it we go our own separate ways until the next victim steps up to the mike and back together again.

For those of you here magicians or anyone else who doesn’t want to hear/read this then why are you reading my post? If you want stuff that’ll tickle your ears then hustling or cheating at Dice Or Cards (D.O.C.) is not for you. This is how we trick, maneuver and manipulate to get what we want so we can live the lavish life style that we are accustomed to…so on that note grow up.

[quote]
I'll say one thing you sure know a lot of magicians.
[/quote]

I do don’t I? Some taught me what they knew and others sought me out to see if I was the real deal.

Respectfully,

The Doctor
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (May 8, 2006 10:29PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-08 22:50, Mar wrote:
Chosse,

touche

So you would like to get us in a poker game? That would be very interesting. I remember you stating that you worked with a poker mob in the 70's for a few years. Did you move in the games or were you end getter.
[/quote]

Doesn't really matter, does it? You got my point...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 8, 2006 10:32PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-08 19:59, Paul Chosse wrote:
Hey Doc, how YOU doin'? Wish I could get all these emotionally charged cardmen in a good old-fashioned poker game!
[/quote]

If we could we would have a great time splitting down their money. You know I was up in your neck of the woods the week before last looking for you but couldn't get intouch with you so I called Hank Lee's Magic shop looking for your number and the guys told me and my friends to come up there. We did and boy oh boy did they treat us very nice, it was an honor.

You know I had to entertain them of which I think they very much enjoyed. The older gentleman there is very good along with the other guy tall slim guy that fooled me with the 4 ace deck shuffle routine that he says he invented which to me on a scale of 1 to 10 is a 10. I forgot your name but that move should definitely be in the gambling books; I'm proud of you for that. Guess what he also taught it to me and I taught him about stripper work. You know why I did because "fair exchange of information is not a robbery."

I'm really gonna need your number because I will be going back up there to win me some more money real soon. I have an 800 number but I couldn't reach you.

Your Friend and Student

Doc
Message: Posted by: RandyM (May 8, 2006 11:51PM)
Who is this doc??
Message: Posted by: mook (May 9, 2006 12:42AM)
[quote]
Unknown419 wrote:
What is the problem here?

1. I looked in the Al Lampkin book and saw a 2 prong dice hold out device that no one I knew had so I made a few.

[/quote]

Maybe I need one of your famous Reading Comprehension 101 classes, but when I read this, it sounded to me like one of the acknowledgements you are demanding is for a device you saw a picture of in the Al Lampkin book and duplicated. Doesn't that make him the originator and not you? And does anyone know if this device is in any other books that came out before this book?
Did you also invent the punch? I believe in giving credit where it's due, so I would like to find out where it's due first.
Message: Posted by: irishguy (May 9, 2006 03:56AM)
You really think a comment like that is [i]respectful[/i]?

Earlier, Edh said [i]Doc has contributed to this forum for some time. He has given us magi's something to work with.[/i] but frankly, I have never seen that. I haven't seen you be helpful to others. I have, in fact, seen you tell a great deal of stories about yourself...which isn't particularly helpful to others.

If you got messed over in this situation...that isn't fair. But just because you handle a deck better than most doesn't give you the right to be downright rude to others. Nobody in this thread is responsible for you not getting credit for something.

And as noted earlier...why are you airing this here instead of talking to the people you should be angry with?

Respectfully
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 9, 2006 09:57AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-09 01:42, mook wrote:
[quote]
Unknown419 wrote:
What is the problem here?

1. I looked in the Al Lampkin book and saw a 2 prong dice hold out device that no one I knew had so I made a few.

[/quote]

It sounded to me like one of the acknowledgement you are demanding is for a device you saw a picture of in the Al Lampkin book and duplicated. Doesn't that make him the originator and not you? And does anyone know if this device is in any other books that came out before this book?
[quote]

You’re wrong and twisting my words to suit a purpose for what ever you’re trying to prove or disprove. I am not “demanding” anything, I clearly stated “An Acknowledgement Would Have Been Nice.” (meaning it would have been nice of him if he would have given me a shout out for giving him the device I made by saying “a gambler by the name of Doc gave me this here device”).

Acknowledgment 1. an expression of thanks or appreciation for something. 2. official or public recognition of the help somebody has given or the work somebody has done.

[/quote]
It sounded to me like one of the acknowledgement you are demanding is for a device you saw a picture of in the Al Lampkin book and duplicated.
[quote]

Yes you can say that… But what is the use of reading/speed reading through something and not comprehending what you’ve read?

[/quote]
Doesn't that make him the originator and not you? And does anyone know if this device is in any other books that came out before this book?
[quote]

What does these two questions have to do with acknowledging something that someone gave to you? You know I really feel sorry for the people that you be around if you knit-pick like this all the time. So what you’re saying is this when you give your wife or girlfriend a gift you’re telling me that you explain to her that you didn’t invent that gift while explaining to her the origin of every gift you gave? And when she talks about the gift that you gave to her would you want her to say or acknowledge that “oh my man picked this gift up somewhere and presented it to me but the originator of the gift is the real giver and the one that really loves me.” So is this what you’re actually telling me?

I will now answer your question

[quote]
Doesn't that make him the originator and not you?
[/quote]

No it doesn’t make him, Frank Garcia, the K.C. Card Co. nor I the originator but I am the originator of mine which is called The Eagle Claw Hold-Out. Put this info into your gambling archives of inventions made by a black man.

[quote]
Does anyone know if this device is in any other books that came out before this book?
[/quote]

Yes this device is shown in Frank Garcia’s “How to Detect Crooked Gambling” book page 234 and it’s also mentioned in the 1959 K.C. Card Co. Blue book between pages 34 and 35 why? Extra pages were added to the book to advertise different items. This is device is called “Dice Switch.”

[quote]
Did you also invent the punch?
[/quote]

Reading Comprehension 101 is definitely necessary
[quote]
On 2006-05-05 14:51, Unknown419 wrote:
Let Me Clarify Something

I Did Not Invent The Two-Prong Dice Hold-Out … and I Did Not Invent the Punch. Being that I'm poor and couldn't find it, I made the items by taking my time, looking at the pictures and reading the instructions.
[/quote]

[quote]
I believe in giving credit where it's due, so I would like to find out where it's due first.
[/quote]

Good for you and since you’re in a credit giving mood take this here Dunce Cap and put it on until you find out who invented the punch and get back to us on it because I definitely wrote that I didn’t invent it and really don’t care who did because it was invented and used before I was born.

D.O.C.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (May 9, 2006 10:04AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-09 04:56, irishguy wrote:

Earlier, Edh said [i]Doc has contributed to this forum for some time. He has given us magi's something to work with.[/i] but frankly, I have never seen that. I haven't seen you be helpful to others. I have, in fact, seen you tell a great deal of stories about yourself...which isn't particularly helpful to others.
[/quote]

Sorry, but Doc has helped folks out a good deal here. He has provided people with notes, tips, ideas on certain moves when he felt it was warranted. These things were a great help. I will say that with many of the posts and stories that you refer to, if you read between the lines, you'll find some good pieces of information.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (May 11, 2006 03:52PM)
Oh cool. I thought they deleted this thread. Glad to see it was just moved.

Doc, I'm pretty sure that there is nothing that I could do to advance your dice skills. From what I've heard of your dice switches etc your skills are formidible. But thanks for the mention anyway.

I agree with T-Jo, Doc has given much help. Just read his posts, there are nuggets of gold contained within.

Vandy
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 11, 2006 09:40PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-09 11:04, T. Joseph O'Malley wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-05-09 04:56, irishguy wrote:

Earlier, Edh said [i]Doc has contributed to this forum for some time. He has given us magi's something to work with.[/i] but frankly, I have never seen that. I haven't seen you be helpful to others. I have, in fact, seen you tell a great deal of stories about yourself...which isn't particularly helpful to others.
[/quote]

Sorry, but Doc has helped folks out a good deal here. He has provided people with notes, tips, ideas on certain moves when he felt it was warranted. These things were a great help. I will say that with many of the posts and stories that you refer to, if you read between the lines, you'll find some good pieces of information.
[/quote]

Mr. O'Malley

Thanks for the shout out and the many times that you came to help me, I very much appreciate it.

It's an honor being your friend.

May God Bless You and Your Family

Respectfully

Doc
Message: Posted by: halcon (May 11, 2006 09:48PM)
Vandy, moved and edited.

I share the sentiments that Vandy, T O'malley, and a few others here feel about Doc. Just because he doesn't outright explain how to do something, doesn't mean he's not giving you valuable input.

if you're not picking anything up from his posts, it's probably because this is not what you do and it is difficult to try and pick up what he's saying between the lines.

I for one have sat here and read some of Docs posts, smiling because it seems that I have gone through one or two of those experiences, he shares.

Halcon
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 11, 2006 09:55PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-11 16:52, Vandy Grift wrote:
Oh cool. I thought they deleted this thread. Glad to see it was just moved.

Doc, I'm pretty sure that there is nothing that I could do to advance your dice skills. From what I've heard of your dice switches etc your skills are formidible. But thanks for the mention anyway.

I agree with T-Jo, Doc has given much help. Just read his posts, there are nuggets of gold contained within.

Vandy
[/quote]

I thought that this thread was deleted too because I had something to write for the other poster.

Vandy you have helped my dice skills and I thank you for it. How did I help your dice skills Doc? Because people have seen my dice switch they feel that's all I can do but that's not true at all. Switching dice is only one aspect of cheating at dice. What about controlled dice shots? Vandy I can control fair dice very well but I'm a little out of practice at the moment. If I lose at dice it's only because the victim was lucky and broke me before I was able to get my shot off.

Another area of cheating a dice is proposition bets and percentage play of which the casino does and win the the odds that they have over the player that's why they want their dice perfectly square because they know that a knowledgeable player will take an advantage of defective dice.

You also have to know when cheating dice are down already or if the guy is an expert shooter and when to bet with the shooter. Any edge is an edge and when you see cheating is going on you don't tell you bet with him etc. Why? Because your goal is to win money right? So why are you trying to wake up the dead (sleepers who are giving their money away freely)?

This is why I also posted the remainding dice books because controlled dice shots and percentage books work and if you don't believe me just consult your K.C. Card Co. Blue Book and see if those percentage books are in the catalog.

Vandy again thanks as I said previously

Your Friend

Doc
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 11, 2006 10:04PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-09 10:03, Mr.Tweed wrote:
So, still no answer from this Doc guy on what he is angry about.

I just took my third look at the dice chapter (in as many days) to see what has upset the guy.

On page 259; photo of two dice clips or what guys I have met called 'monkeys'. Nothing new there - old as the hills. Certainly older than me.

Page 263; talk of using an ungaffed sleeve. Nothing new.

Page 264; Forte writes: "Even mechanical holdout machines, as typically used in card games, have been used to switch dice." Nothing new there, either.

Page 265; photo of portable hot stamping tool. Not a holdout but I guess if you need glasses and forgot to wear them...

Page 271; die balancer or spinner. Could this be the fabled reference? Uses two prongs to balance the die, after all. Uh, nope.

Page 273; Dial-guage micrometer. Again about as likely as the last two items.

Page 293; beanshooter for stealing checks. I think not.

Instead of all the mealy-mouthed defences of this guy who has trashed two other guys, how about we hear what he's talking about? I don't have the Piacente video or I would have checked it out, but so far it's not looking so hot as far as Doc being able to prove that Forte needs to change the title of that chapter from D-I-C-E to D-O-C.

Before another soldier or pretender whines about it, let's hear it from the guy that started this BS.

John Corey
[/quote]

Mr. Corey thanks for writing and posting your findings...they will be of some help due to the fact that I don't have the book. My question to you is why is it that ya’ll keep adding words to my quote. By changing my text makes you bearing false witnessing.

[quote]
Instead of all the mealy-mouthed defenses of this guy who has trashed two other guys,
[/quote]

I trashed no one, they started it and I’m defending myself. I made a post of my thoughts out loud. Two guys tell me that my thoughts were wrong and I defended my right to think what I want to think. I think therefore I am.

It seems that the only way you would understand what was going on is if you just got robbed by two guys and you caught them and beat them up and now they’re screaming that you took advantage of them and the only thing that you really did is defend your belongings and now because everyone else who doesn’t know what was going on now comes to defend the beat up victims.

[quote]
Before another soldier or pretender whines about it, let's hear it from the guy that started this BS.
[/quote]

My friends are not whiners they are men and being that they are hustlers you should respect them as such. Why? Because to do what they do they have become what you would call street people dealing with all kinds of scum of the earth and their personality is not like that of a nice magician.

9 out of 10 times they will do what they have to do to leave with the money they’ve won if you get what I’m saying so they are not to be taken lightly. I’m also not saying that you’re not about your business but I know that they are.

These whiners as you say are truthful gentlemen but when p**ssed off turn into the Hulk and the dark side comes out. The only reason that they’re taking up for me is that I have footage of everything and people that I’ve met therefore conversations exist on these footages and when they hear what was said and see what they see they know for a fact that I wasn’t lying. So on that note these guys are definitely not butt kissers they were only stating the facts as they saw it and if you meet me and see what they saw you would have a very different opinion of me too.

Why I filmed?

I read what happened to Walter Scott and I just didn’t want the same thing to happen to me that’s why I only filmed stuff to learn from and to prove to others as evidence, if that came up, that the inventions and ideas were mine and that I taught it to whomever claims that my move was theirs

[quote]
On 2006-05-09 10:03, Mr.Tweed wrote:
So, still no answer from this Doc guy on what he is angry about.
[/quote]

You’re nothing but an instigator and a manipulator with the devil working right through you. Who said that I was angry? I sure didn’t so what hat did you pull this word from? My exact words are written and Acknowledgement is the word I clearly stated which means 1. an expression of thanks or appreciation for something. 2. official or public recognition of the help somebody has given or the work somebody has done.

I did not write I’m angry at Steve for not giving me an Acknowledgement. This is what you’re trying to manipulate my sentence into saying when it’s not and that’s why you don’t understand what I’m talking about.

[quote]
…so far it's not looking so hot as far as Doc being able to prove that Forte needs to change the title of that chapter from D-I-C-E to D-O-C.
[/quote]

You’re misquoting me again…I said “An Acknowledgement Would Have Been Nice.” Why would I want someone to retract expensive books just to satisfy me? That’s selfishness but if you would like to solve this problem for us just purchase all of Steve Forte’s books and take the rest of your money that you make for the rest of your life and republish them again for him putting in my irrelevant acknowledgment and then we can all live happily ever after.

To My Readers

I said it before and I’ll say it again “An Acknowledgement Would Have Been Nice.”

My Words

All I'm saying is that one of the two dice clips that you see on page 259 I made from looking at a clear pic in Al Lampkin's book and made a few. After having too many to use I gave one of them to Steve Forte and when he placed it in his book and I read what he had to say all I said to myself is "An Acknowledgment from him would have been nice."

The Dictionary Meaning

Acknowledgment: 1. an expression of thanks or appreciation for something. 2. official or public recognition of the help somebody has given or the work somebody has done.

Would: 1. used to express the sense or “will” in reported speech or when referring to an event that has not happened yet. 2. used in making polite requests of offers.

Been: 1 past participle of be

Nice: 1 pleasant or enjoyable 2. kind, or showing courtesy, friendliness, or consideration. 3. respectable, or of an acceptable social or moral standard.

My Statement Using Dictionary Words.

The bottom line is this…

Steve should have shown but didn’t “an expression of thanks or appreciation for something” (that I gave him and given me a) “public recognition of the help (I) given for the work (that I did).” (Being that) “my polite request or reported speech…or event…has not happened yet’ (I will wait). (I was only thinking out loud of how) “pleasant or enjoyable” (it would have been being ) “shown” (a little) “courtesy” (for) “friendliness” (on my part for my) “consideration” (in giving him that item). It’s just “an acceptable social or moral standard” (where I come from).

To The Next Person That Writes To Me

If you are not writing to me about why Sal or Steve should have given me an acknowledgement (I Repeat The Word Acknowledgement see the above meaning) than don’t expect an answer from me because you’re not addressing my post you’re adding your own words to it, which is wrong.

Respectfully

Doc
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 12, 2006 12:30AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-08 11:38, Mr.Tweed wrote:
Don't explain the gaff (not that he hasn't already tipped it to every magician and magic shop staff list on the continental US already) but please give us a page number for whatever has got him worked up. Otherwise it's just gasbagging and defamation

J.Corey
[/quote]

You know you're nothing but a suck up and should be ashamed of yourself; you need to be a man. Why? You say that I already tipped whatever to every magician and magic shop staff list on the continental US already? Let's say that I agree with you...now let me tell you why you're a suck up and I'm not.

I got kicked out of forums because I don't hold back the truth as I see it. Example on Igor's site when they were talking about Darwin etc. I defended Darwin's move against Igor's meaning why did the members criticize the moves that Darwin didn't do excellent compared to the moves that Igor didn't do excellent. If you still don't understand what I mean, I mean why judge one with a fine tooth comb and not the other; I judged Igor's and got banned because I judged fairly. I called them members suck ups too because they were butt kissing (not talking about) Igor because they dared not to talk about Igor's moves.

Now for your issue, you say I talk or tell good depending on your level I will agree with you for argument sake, but since you're bashing me on telling stuff why are you not speaking out against Steve Forte's book, Sal Piacente's/Dave Malek's DVD's exposing cheating moves to casinos around the world and the continental US? Why just me? I know why because your a butt kisser and a suck up and don't want to say anything against them for fear of everybody at this site jumping on your narrow a-- behind. When you judge you need to judge everyone the same or not judge at all.

I await your reply.

Doc Holiday
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (May 12, 2006 02:33AM)
Doc I still don't know what the heck you're talking about.
Message: Posted by: Mr.Tweed (May 12, 2006 03:46AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-11 23:04, Unknown419 wrote:

My Words

All I'm saying is that one of the two dice clips that you see on page 259 I made from looking at a clear pic in Al Lampkin's book and made a few. After having too many to use I gave one of them to Steve Forte and when he placed it in his book and I read what he had to say all I said to myself is "An Acknowledgment from him would have been nice."

[/quote]

Thanks for finally clearing up what it is that's got you worked up. What you actually wrote on 4 May was:

[quote]

You know being that life is short we all would appreciate a little acknowledgement for our contributions and accomplishments in life and since no one acknowledging mine, I'm going on record to date and saying that the dice hold out with the two prongs is mine of which I made and likewise the punch is mine and also made by me. [/quote]

Can you see how people had no idea what it was you were talking about? You didn't provide a page number the first time around. I kept asking...

As to whether Forte should have acknowledged you for your build of a gaff that has been around for more than half a century (if not longer) - you'll see that he does not credit hustlers for any of the other gaffs he shows (I mean, if you buy the book). This is because most hustlers are not seeking fame but trying to GTFM. You have to decide what it is that you want.

Anyway, thanks for clearing up what it is you were hot about (finally). As to all of your anger at me, I believe the Lord Jesus Christ Our Saviour will forgive you.

J.Corey
Message: Posted by: Andrei (May 12, 2006 03:57AM)
Doc:
Steve Forte is not a Walter Scott. My reasoning is that, back in the day, nobody knew what Walter Scott looked like, or how his hands moved, or anything like that. In contrast, Forte has made a number of appearances in seminars, videos etc. People in my country, for instance, are still asleep, because they've never heard of him. But, generally, it isn't the same situation.

I think giving advice to others, no matter how well, is not the same as going out and getting done with it yourself. Of course, this is all just geeky logic.

With undying passion for cards and people who treat them well,
Andrei
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 12, 2006 09:05AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-12 04:46, Mr.Tweed wrote:

Anyway, thanks for clearing up what it is you were hot about (finally). As to all of your anger at me, I believe the Lord Jesus Christ Our Saviour will forgive you.

J.Corey
[/quote]

I pray that he do and do me a favor while you're praying for you your family and friends. Please speak to our Lord about my anger and street like personality and ask Him to help me control it better and to forgive me and pray that I make it into heaven so we all can hang out together and talk mess for all eternity.

Signed

Your Knuckle-headed Brother in the Lord

Doc
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 12, 2006 09:30AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-12 03:33, Mr. Z wrote:
Doc I still don't know what the heck you're talking about.
[/quote]

Mr. Z I'm sorry but I can't explain it any clearer. May the Lord bless you and your family.

Your Friend

Doc
Message: Posted by: splice (May 12, 2006 09:44AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-12 03:33, Mr. Z wrote:
Doc I still don't know what the heck you're talking about.
[/quote]

I'm just new, a lurker and everything, but I like lurking when the Doc speaks. Lots to learn.

I think the situation is like this: If you learned about and got a certain gaff from someone else, is it cool for you to turn around and tell others about the device and show it to them without saying who showed it to you? Regardless of who originally thought of it, someone was nice enough to pass on the knowledge and even to make the device and give it to you. It's significant because that type of knowledge isn't just passed aroung freely. It's not a crime not to mention who showed you, but, you know, "An acknowledgment would have been nice".

Do I get a cookie?
Message: Posted by: mook (May 12, 2006 10:17AM)
No cookie here. I can see that an "acknowledgement would have been nice," but I suppose by starting this thread, Doc already gave himself the acknowledgement he was seeking.

However, I have to agree with Irishguy and others who say that this forum is not the place to air a beef he has with two people he says that he knows. Why not call them directly and air your grief? Only you guys know exactly what happened and who deserves the accolades.

I also don't appreciate being talked down to. Doc, you and your rediculous "READING COMPREHENSION 101" need to look in the mirror. You long rants don't clear up anything I addressed, they only show your state of mind.

I'll pray that you gain some patience and understanding of other people. You really need help.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 12, 2006 10:53AM)
As the sun is to a vampire so recognition is to a cheat. :)
Message: Posted by: rannie (May 12, 2006 02:03PM)
Tommy, could not have said it any better. Right on man!

Rannie
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (May 12, 2006 02:36PM)
Recognition from a mark is bad. Recognition for work within the fraternity is not bad.

Hey, cheats are people too. And some like to be recognized for their achievements. At least by others that share the same intrests. Magicians don't want a spectator to be aware of moves or recognize an individual move, but they sure get testy when thier moves aren't credited in magic publications etc.

Vandy
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 12, 2006 04:51PM)
I have to wonder why Doc is telling the worlds leading casino security expert anything at all. What about the fraternity who might want to use the move to cheat? Steve Forte is the arch enemy of the fraternity.
Message: Posted by: halcon (May 12, 2006 05:11PM)
Tommy, not true at all.

lets assume for one second that it is. Just because Steve tipped the method employed, doesn't mean you'll get caught. the bottom deal, for example, almost everyone knows it's possible, yet we all get away with it, time after time. why? Because, knowing the move is a lot different from knowing when to move. Add to that, some people have polished it so well, even if you were burning someones hands you would still get away with it.

there are cheats who have never been caught, because they understand the psychology, nuances, rhythm and timing, amongst other things. they understand human behavior and exploit it wherever possible.

I've seen people with beautiful moves, but their rhythm was not in sync with their natural body movement. Sure, I may not have seen what happened, but, because of the unusual rhythm, I understood something did.

Halcon
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 12, 2006 06:03PM)
With respect I disagree. The whole idea of the Steve Forte's book is to warn and forearm casinos about cheating so they can either prevent cheating or catch cheats. It is as simple as that.
His tapes are intended to do the same for private games.
It seems wacky to me that Doc wants recognition in such a book. Do you expect the cheats to say thanks Doc for telling the enemy that secret move? Forte has the respect of all cheats but lets not forget whos side he is on. I would not tell Forte the time if he asked.
Message: Posted by: Craig Krisulevicz (May 12, 2006 06:14PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-08 11:05, Mr.Tweed wrote:
Exactly. For a start, he should point out what the heck he's talking about in the Forte book. Give us a page number - then those of us who have the book can stop scratching their heads.

[/quote]

CPG page 259.


I want to finish reading this whole thread, but I'll guarantee I'll be on Doc's side.
Message: Posted by: halcon (May 12, 2006 07:38PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-12 19:03, tommy wrote:
With respect I disagree. The whole idea of the Steve Forte's book is to warn and forearm casinos about cheating so they can either prevent cheating or catch cheats. It is as simple as that.
His tapes are intended to do the same for private games.[/quote]

I agree

[quote]It seems wacky to me that Doc wants recognition in such a book. Do you expect the cheats to say thanks Doc for telling the enemy that secret move?[/quote]

No, I don't, but many don't consider Steve the enemy, regardless of his position as a security speacialist, there are reasons for this.

[quote] Forte has the respect of all cheats but lets not forget whos side he is on.[/quote]

I wouldn't worry about who's side he's on, neither would most cheats who know the man.

Halcon
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: trickster2000 (May 13, 2006 02:05AM)
Forte Rocks!
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 13, 2006 06:40AM)
Try telling it them who are breaking rocks.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 13, 2006 10:41AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-12 17:51, tommy wrote:
I have to wonder why Doc is telling the worlds leading casino security expert anything at all. What about the fraternity who might want to use the move to cheat? Steve Forte is the archenemy of the fraternity.
[/quote]

Hey Tommy thanks for writing. Now you know we're just voicing our opinions here and we are entitled to our opinions.

I have to differ with you on this only because I've met the man and have seen a lot of things that he knows and believe me his knowledge is like Whoa....I can't even explain it. Yes he's my mentor but I'm throwing that out the window for the moment and talking facts here. Tommy Steve can talk on hundreds of subjects and give you nothing for example the punch in Gazzo's books. Did I not write that this was not his specialty and that he wrote a lot and didn't tell you anything. These are almost my words exactly to what I wrote in a previous post.

The Casino Protection Book is a great book but believe me Steve did not let out the secrets and have honored the gambler's code to the fullest and made me honor that code as well. Steve to me is a very good judge of character because he would have NEVER let me film him if he thought in his heart that I wouldn't honor the code of silence.

Doc but you're tell everything...No I don't. Yes you do...No I don't. If I do, can you tell me any of the moves that Steve taught me that's on my video? No. 4 hours of never before seen footage still have never been seen as of yet and none of these moves are on Sal's DVD nor in Steve's book. Why? Because they can keep a secret.

Don't you think that they have footage of me teaching my cold deck moves to them? Yes they do and that's neither in Steve’s book nor on Sal's DVD. This is why Charlie stated in the cold deck segment that by using a tape you can stop at least 90% of the cold deck moves but the other 10% that you can't he was actually talking about mine.

But he did let out the secrets...no he didn't. He let out stuff that was already known to the casinos and since he was the only one fluent enough to explain a lot of the things, he just elaborated and capitalized on it. Did I not just previously stated if I showed you 100 moves and explained them logically to you (that didn't get the money) did I teach you anything? Yes and no, I did teach you stuff but I taught you stuff that we no longer use any more (at least the advanced cheats). So who in the casino has enough knowledge that can check his hand and say that he didn't show them everything he knew? No one because they don't know. Why? Because they are getting magicians like Jimmy Swain to help them out on things. Read between the lines.

Did you not see Jimmy next to Steve in the footage that they took together at the card table? Even though it seems as though they were having fun Steve was doing real moves and Jimmy wasn't. Jimmy was showing push off second deals on a T.V. show claiming that they were middle deals to the audience. Besides all this how can you tell a person what he knows and what he doesn't; only God and angels can do that unless he (the individual) showed you more being a friend and you can testify to it and I'm testifying here today.

A lot of hustler's claim that the movie "Shade" did the same thing. One instance when I was on the road hustling I believe I was going to the "Foot Wash" then. I mentioned when the subject of the movie Shade came up after the guy said that those guys showed too much I explained no they didn't it just looks a lot to an amateur hustler and the guy in the car got insulted. After seeing the countenance on his face change I said here look at this video of me switching dice on my laptop. As he watched his jaw dropped as he replayed the videos over and over again. Then I showed him the footage of Damian Neiman and myself together after showing him the Shade movie and the special features presentation. I then explained, I wasn't insulting your skills but there has been a lot of new moves invented since long ago and you can bet on it that this guy was one of our best hustlers according to the streets.

The subject of me came up to him when he got busted by an individual he was cheating when using the bump (a finger nail indentation) and his friend which is my friend told him that I wouldn't have gotten busted because of how tiny my punch work is. This guy and me became good friends since that time and he has since taught me a lot of things that I never knew. Street hustling is totally different than what you learn here listening to magicians and from the books and this is what I'm teaching ya'll.

To the readers of this thread Trust Me On This...

Steve HAS NOT VIOLATED the Hustler's Code of Silence and Keeping the Sleeper Sleep Code he only explained what was already obvious to them and moves that is obsolete to us. Sal also kept the cheater code and showed obsolete moves. I know this to be true because I have the footage of his never before seen skills too to prove it. (Steve's Footage and Sal's Footage is Not the Same). Oh by the way the casinos are not letting you know how much they are getting too...think about it. Why is it when they show cheaters getting caught they always show you old footages that are not very clear? Why is it that they don't want you to see the clear ones? So you can get ideas and advance the other cheater's move who got caught.

Now on the other hand Dave Malek's DVD of which many of you are sleeping on is more informative and street than many realize but you dismiss it because you magicians are only interested in the flashy moves and not the logic nor technique behind the moves which make an experts knowledge unique.

Gentlemen You Have Honored the Hustlers Code and Mr. D. Malek...I'm Scared of You.


Sincerely,

The Doctor
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 13, 2006 11:28AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-12 19:03, tommy wrote:
...The whole idea of the Steve Forte's book is to warn and forearm casinos about cheating so they can either prevent cheating or catch cheats. It is as simple as that. His tapes are intended to do the same for private games.

It seems wacky to me that Doc wants recognition in such a book. Do you expect the cheats to say thanks Doc for telling the enemy that secret move? Forte has the respect of all cheats but lets not forget whos side he is on.
[/quote]

Tommy you know it might be wacky and since you've probably been in the game way longer than I, I have to respect your viewpoint being the hustler that you are. Remember I mentioned that I was a magician first so I need to listen....I also stated that this is probably why they didn't mention me for my safety because I'm a still active hustler. This only confirms my statement that I previously wrote that it was the devil messing with my mind puttiing envy in my heart.

Tommy thanks for waking me up with that knowledge and I very much appreciate it. READERS I STAND CORRECTED about being acknowledged for my safety sake.

Tommy it's an honor knowing you.


A Teacher But Still A Student

Signed

The Doctor

P.S. Readers you see that by talking to real hustlers you can still always learn something new that will advance your street knowledge. Today Doc has been taught a fine lesson from a great teacher and this is why I don't mind being a student as well.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 13, 2006 01:05PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-12 11:17, mook wrote:
I can see that an "acknowledgement would have been nice," but I suppose by starting this thread, Doc already gave himself the acknowledgement he was seeking.

However, I have to agree with Irishguy and others who say that this forum is not the place to air a beef he has with two people he says that he knows. Why not call them directly and air your grief? Only you guys know exactly what happened and who deserves the accolades.
[/quote]

This "Is Not A Beef" (stop changing my words) it was what "I was thinking out loud" and this is why I say Reading Comprehension 101 is definitely necessary...and being that I spoke out loud (meaning posting this thought to the forum I got the help I needed) a teacher by the name of Tommy came along and spanked my butt, put a Dunce Cap on my head and sat me in a corner and showed me for my protection how wrong I was and that most likely they were saving my life by not naming me being that I am a still active card hustler.

Mook this is the answer that I was unknowingly looking for and I got it while all ya'll could do was bash me telling me to prove it and that I was angry and that I had a beef with my friends when I didn't.

[quote]
I … don't appreciate being talked down to. Doc, you and your ridiculous "READING COMPREHENSION 101" (you) need to look in the mirror.
[/quote]

No I don't need to look in the mirror. Why is it that Tommy comprehended my post and answered me and you didn't…because he comprehended. You're the one who rants on and on and didn't even know what I was looking for. Only true or advanced hustlers have these answers and if you were an advanced cheat you would have known this but since you're not, you didn't and now you want to argue with me that I’m disrespecting you. Because you’re Sal’s friend and talk to him a lot does not make you knowledgeable and able to speak and answer questions on our level.

I Know Truth When I Hear Truth

This is not the only time that I've read Tommy's post and they have corrected my wrong way of thinking. Example "You Can't Cheat An Honest Man" and Tommy posted an analogy about people having their homes taken from them by con men and proved me wrong and I know what he posted was true because after I read it, Gen. Chapter 3 popped into my mind when the Devil did con an honest and perfect man (Adam and Eve) so I knew then his knowledge regarding street far exceeded mine.

[quote]
Your long rants don't clear up anything I addressed, they only show your state of mind.
[/quote]

Mook you are 100% correct here. My problem was not clearing up anything you addressed because in my book I matter first and I was in the process of clearing up my own state of mind, so how in the world was I suppose to be trying to clear up yours when mine wasn’t right.

[quote]
I'll pray that you gain some patience and understanding of other people. You really need help.
[/quote]

Mook keep me in your prayers and thank you for praying for me because I do need all the help that I can get.

Signed

Just Speaking Man to Man

Doc

P.S. Readers Street Knowledge and having a college education is not the same thing to us because with Street Knowledge you can also hustle and work the street if necessary and still survive. When I speak I'm mainly talking about Street and Hustler Knowledge.
Message: Posted by: halcon (May 13, 2006 04:05PM)
Amen, to street knowledge. I don't think I would be here now if not for knowing the streets.

Halcon