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Topic: Kovari's Turbo Bunny vs. Run Wolf Run
Message: Posted by: Neznarf (May 25, 2006 02:59PM)
I have two of Kovari's Turbo bunny's

Turbo Bunny = "Run Rabbit Run"

http://www.waterfallstudios.co.uk/kovarimagic/sdex.htm

Click on Children's Magic and It's about 3/4 down the page.

I think Kovari is having some health problems so I don't
know if he will take orders or answer e-mails?

I've used Turbo Bunny in my kids shows for many years and it's a killer.

I put Library one one door and School on the other.
(you know because the rabbit is smart because he goes to school and the library)

One of the reasons I purchased it was because Rich Block told me what a great prop it was.

Rich Block was one of the owners of Collectors Workshop at the time. And is a GREAT guy.

Does anyone own Turbo Bunny and Run Wolf Run?

If so I could you give us a comparison.

Thx,

~Neznarf
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 26, 2006 05:28AM)
I'm hopefully receiving my Run Wolf Run shortly, and my friend Robbie has Turbo Bunny. I was also wondering how they compare, so I'll let you know shortly!
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (May 28, 2006 02:03AM)
I don't own Turbo Bunny but my viewing of the images on the link provided tell me that there is absolutely no comparison between the two. Turbo Bunny looks pretty plain and unexciting and this is in contrast to the stunning graphics of the Run Wolf Run which was designed/drawn/built by a former cartoon artist. I would think that Doug aka Potty the Pirate will say likewise. Also, the mechanics/engineering on the RWR is likely clearly superior given the materials that Chance uses.

Smartini
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (May 28, 2006 05:39AM)
Turbo Bunny looks pretty plain and unexciting and this is in contrast to the stunning graphics of the Run Wolf Run which was designed/drawn/built by a former cartoon artist

Hi,
I do not perform this effect ,However there is a thread going about this on a private forum of which I am a member , the genneral opinion there and these are all full time pros. is that the fancy artwork on the wolf version is its weakness. the plainess of turbo bunny and apparently great mechanism and easy to operate are its strenghts. I can see what these performers mean the wolf thing is great looking but way too busy and intricate. the crossing of the wolf can be easily missed and the vannish weak because of the frames size
Phillip
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (May 28, 2006 09:22AM)
[quote]
the genneral opinion there and these are all full time pros. is that the fancy artwork on the wolf version is its weakness.
[/quote]

WOW!! Maybe an eye exam is in order or people should buy the prop first before passing judgement. Sorry, but I gotta defend my prop. We tested this in our shop, which is over 70 FEET long and all actions were EASILY seen.
For the most part, I think MOST Run ____Run props do not play to a big audience with the EXCEPTION of KOVARI'S Turbo Bunny. He seemed to have stripped it right down to the basics. Not my cup of tea but good thinking and looks to be a GREAT PROP!!
Too each his own but I really encourage people to actually try a product, watch it live or read a working review before posting opinions on a props workability.
No offense taken, just stating my case :)
Thanks
Chance
Wolf's magic
Message: Posted by: rogueclown (May 28, 2006 09:46AM)
Has anyone from your private forum actually used either effect? Would you happen to know if they own Run Wolf Run?
I just used Run Wolf Run for the first time on Saturday. I had no problems with anybody NOT seeing the Wolf. Every time they saw the Wolf the kids would scream.
Even the parents in the cheap seats were pointing out with the kids to where the Wolf was. This is well worth the price. Run Wolf Run is highly visual and very entertaining. Did I mention that this thing is HUGE!!! Size: 23" Wide x 12" Tall x 1 1/2" Thick
The wolf alone is 7 inches tall. AND Wolf's Magic sold their first run rather quickly. Just seeing Turbo bunny and Run Wolf Run side by side I would have to say that I am glad that I bought Run Wolf Run. The story lines that are possible with RWR are pretty much obvious. Turbo Bunny looks like it's just a rabbit going from end to end. What is the motivation?
It looks like a good prop, but it's something that I would not buy for myself.
You can tell that Chance is a Graphic Artist with the eye candy he packed in this prop. This is just my opinion. I am not trying to stir anything up at all.
Respectfully,
RogueClown
http://www.eddietheclown.com
Message: Posted by: Al Kazam the Magic Man (May 28, 2006 10:16AM)
Hi there,

I own a Turbo Bunny, but not a RRR. I"ve discussed the same thinking with some very knowledgable kids performers and got the Turbo Bunny because of the much greater visual of approx 12" to very clearly see the bunny cross back and forth. For me, there is a million stories and patter that can be used, but the crux comes if in fact the kids can very clearly see the bunny going back and forth. For sure the discussion is NOT about Chance and the quality of his props. I own one myself and can vouch for the quality and workmanship.

All the best
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (May 28, 2006 10:49AM)
JoJo & Phillip,
I want to be clear in stating that I respect both of your opinions and have no problem with them. I just want to make a few things clear regarding RWR and any other prop for that matter.
I believe, that for the most part, the average "Children's Prop" has been designed for a typical "Living Room Party" or "Platform Setting" at best, including my Run Wolf Run. I think many magicians fool themselves believing that their props can be seen from the BACK ROW of a typical school assembly arena. That is why I design most of my props in a larger size to help in this matter. But even then, it is a push at times. I am just being honest here.
So decide for yourselves. Even though I still believe this will play to larger audiences, if you do smaller shows or platform venues, then I can GUARANTEE you my prop will deliver the goods from all aspects as well as be far more visually stimulating than most props which is very important, in my book, in getting the kids attention. Believe it or not...kids LOVE Cartoons and respond likewise. That is the entire point of my company. To design as props that look as good as they perform and command the attention from the kids as soon as you reveal them. So far, my philosophy has worked very well.
I want to CONFIRM that I think Kovari has an exceptional design and CLEARLY would be more visible than my RWR. So buy them up if you want as mine are sold out for now.
There is an old saying "Ya can't please them all". Those who make the choice to purchase my products seem to be over-pleased which is good enough for me :)
Take care
Chance
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 28, 2006 01:52PM)
I'm still waiting for my RWR, but it shouldn't be long now.....the reason that I'd like to compare RWR with TURBO BUNNY has nothing to do with the graphics - Chance's prop LOOKS fantastic (and I love his props, so without seeing it for real, I still choose it over Turbo Bunny). Nor is it a visibility issue, no, the reason I'd like to compare them would be for the MECHANISM, since Turbo Bunny makes the movement of the rabbit very easy, with little or no obvious finger movement. Compare to my Run Dragon Run, which I have to manually slide across, or flick across. If I want to make the Dragon run slowly, there's nothing for it but to move my hand across beneath the dragon, a bit of a giveaway. Turbo bunny has one of the best mechanisms in a "Run" effect, but I know that Chance Wolf is also a mechanical genius. Turbo Bunny is a hand held prop as far as I remember, so there are bound to be differences.
Message: Posted by: Michael238 (May 28, 2006 09:26PM)
I own the RWR, but not the Kovari.
My 11 year old son assists me in every show, and sees a lot of magic by going to the magic shop in town, lectures, etc. The first time he saw this, he saidhere did this thing come from?, this is awesome." The graphics is THE reason I buy Wolf Magic items. One thing I love, about Wolf items, is most people will not spend the moeny on a n expensive prop.
If you really play up the fact to watch for the wolf, they will see it.
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (May 28, 2006 11:35PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-28 06:39, p.b.jones wrote:
Turbo Bunny looks pretty plain and unexciting and this is in contrast to the stunning graphics of the Run Wolf Run which was designed/drawn/built by a former cartoon artist

Hi,
I do not perform this effect ,However there is a thread going about this on a private forum of which I am a member , the genneral opinion there and these are all full time pros. is that the fancy artwork on the wolf version is its weakness. the plainess of turbo bunny and apparently great mechanism and easy to operate are its strenghts. I can see what these performers mean the wolf thing is great looking but way too busy and intricate. the crossing of the wolf can be easily missed and the vannish weak because of the frames size
Phillip
[/quote]

The "fancy" artwork is its weakness?! If this is the case then I couldn't disagree with the "full time pros" more. In this day and age of 4 second jump cuts the children of this generation can spot a Pokemon at a hundred paces. If the motivation is there they will spot it. My 4 year old son can spot dinosaurs that are 1" tall on cereal boxes at quite a distance. IMHO the Turbo Bunny lacks life and looks like something straight out of the 70s. You have to see/hold the RWR prop to appreciate it. Phillip you've indicated that you don't own either so you have to admit that it's a little difficult to judge a props visibility based upon a 3-4" computer screen image. I can't comment on the mechanism but I understand from Rogue Clown that the RWR is as smooth as silk.

I also agree with Mr. Lucky in that most people will shy away from Wolfs magic based solely on the price. Funny how everyone wants quality but not enough to pay for it.
Message: Posted by: Al Kazam the Magic Man (May 29, 2006 12:14AM)
HI Chance,

I sure do understand what you're saying. I do own one of your props and am impressed with the workings and mechanics. (I do have one question about it that I will PM you about) I'm also fine with paying for what I want and the quality I'm getting. I've been to India and bought stuff there, and feel I can tell the difference in quality. This discussion is mainly about graphics and the viewable area of the "Rabbits or Wolves". That is all it is for me anyways.

All the best.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 29, 2006 02:28AM)
It seems odd to me that so many folks are questioning the visibility of the wolf in RWR. The graphics are SO cool, and the Wolf is SO clear to see, I don't understand the reservations. Turbo Bunny simply doesn't come close in appearance, but it is one of the best "Run" effects mechanically, the running rabbit looks very, very funny, and the mechanism is what sets Turbo Bunny apart from all other "Run" effects. Even "Run Dragon Run" LOOKS better than Turbo Bunny. So JoJo, if you think there may be a problem with the appearance of RWR, I'm frankly very surprised. For me, the prop looks 100%, and it's a guaranteed winner as it comes from Chance Wolf's workshop. How many "Run" effects have a cut-away so you can see the body of the running character?
Message: Posted by: NJJ (May 29, 2006 02:37AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-28 10:22, Chance Wolf wrote:
[quote]
the genneral opinion there and these are all full time pros. is that the fancy artwork on the wolf version is its weakness.
[/quote]

WOW!! Maybe an eye exam is in order or people should buy the prop first before passing judgement. Sorry, but I gotta defend my prop. We tested this in our shop, which is over 70 FEET long and all actions were EASILY seen.
For the most part, I think MOST Run ____Run props do not play to a big audience with the EXCEPTION of KOVARI'S Turbo Bunny. He seemed to have stripped it right down to the basics. Not my cup of tea but good thinking and looks to be a GREAT PROP!!
Too each his own but I really encourage people to actually try a product, watch it live or read a working review before posting opinions on a props workability.
No offense taken, just stating my case :)
Thanks
Chance
Wolf's magic
[/quote]

Unfortunately, many of us do not have the luxery of being able to buy props that we won't use. When a product has a high price tag it comes under greater scrutiny from buyers who might be happy to risk $50 on a prop that could be a dud.

I own neither props so I can not offer any more then my uneducated opinion based on web images.

[quote]
On 2006-05-29 03:28, Potty the Pirate wrote:
It seems odd to me that so many folks are questioning the visibility of the wolf in RWR. The graphics are SO cool, and the Wolf is SO clear to see, I don't understand the reservations. Turbo Bunny simply doesn't come close in appearance, but it is one of the best "Run" effects mechanically, the running rabbit looks very, very funny, and the mechanism is what sets Turbo Bunny apart from all other "Run" effects. Even "Run Dragon Run" LOOKS better than Turbo Bunny. So JoJo, if you think there may be a problem with the appearance of RWR, I'm frankly very surprised. For me, the prop looks 100%, and it's a guaranteed winner as it comes from Chance Wolf's workshop. How many "Run" effects have a cut-away so you can see the body of the running character?
[/quote]

Because both the design of the wolf and the design of the houses is quite busy and because the wolf appears partly obscured by bushes in the image it creates the concern.


For me though, I think Run Rabbit products are high on fun but pretty weak on magic.
Message: Posted by: BIlly James (May 29, 2006 05:16AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-29 00:35, The Great Smartini wrote:
IMHO the Turbo Bunny lacks life and looks like something straight out of the 70s. [/quote]

I don't know that the prop looks like something out of the 70's but the guy holding it does...in fact at first I thought - 'so that's what Barry Gibb is doing for a gig nowadays'.

:)
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (May 29, 2006 05:20AM)
I also agree with Mr. Lucky in that most people will shy away from Wolfs magic based solely on the price. Funny how everyone wants quality but not enough to pay for it.

Hi,
You will also have people who buy it simply because it is expensive and they believe it makes them look good/ more succesful in front of other magicians .
Price is not an issue to me nor most of the pros on the private forum. I spend nearly $400 on a pair of jeans.


---------------------------------
Phillip you've indicated that you don't own either so you have to admit that it's a little difficult to judge a props visibility based upon a 3-4" computer screen image. I can't comment on the mechanism but I understand from Rogue Clown that the RWR is as smooth as silk.

Personaly I would not perform run rabbit run as I have discussed else where.

However, I do not need to buy something to see the advantages /disadvantages of the artwork. for me and many others there is way to much going on artwise on the wolf version. you may like it that's cool but not for me. the artwork is really great I agree! but does that ad or distract personlay I think it distracts.


imagine an completely empty stage if you ran from one side to the other everone would spot you even if they where not expecting you to run. now try it on a state of the art stage set with spectacular senery beautifuly painted with only a small open area I think if the idea is YOU WANT TO BE SPOTTED then the fist option is clearly the way to go
Phillip
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 29, 2006 08:04AM)
I find it very hard to imagine any of the kids at my shows failing to see that Wolf! Geez, if I even have a tiny part of a prop showing when it shouldn't, they'll let me know. Kids have very sharp eyesight, and they don't miss a thing! It seems a lot of folks don't think that "Run" effects are very good - have you guys honestly worked out a good routine and tried it with 3 -5 year-olds? Magic? What magic? The prop is just great at getting the kids involved, who thinks you need a magical effect with a prop like this? Run Rabbit Run is one of the big classics of kids' magic, and for good reason. And has been mentioned on another thread, if you do want to add more magic to RWR, how about including an egg bag routine or "silk to egg" or similar?
PB, Jones, you're a lucky man, I only spend about $50 on jeans, that way I have plenty cash left to buy new props for my shows!
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (May 29, 2006 09:01AM)
PB, Jones, you're a lucky man, I only spend about $50 on jeans, that way I have plenty cash left to buy new props for my shows!

HI,
In truth I could replace my entire kids show tables cases and all for less than £400.00 and I have performed the same act for 20 years plus (some patter updates and bits n pieces changed /tweked along the way)

I don't realy need new props for my shows
Phillip
Message: Posted by: Michael238 (May 29, 2006 09:09AM)
P.B.Jones is right. A lot of people will try to look good, because it is expensive. If you do not know how to perform, it will not matter if it is $1 or $1000, you will still stink. The only difference I guess is you look better with an expensive item. But bad is bad, no question about it.
Message: Posted by: Michael238 (May 29, 2006 09:11AM)
P.B.Jones is right. A lot of people will try to look good, because it is expensive. If you do not know how to perform, it will not matter if it is $1 or $1000, you will still stink. The only difference I guess is you look better with an expensive item. But bad is bad, no question about it.
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (May 29, 2006 09:21AM)
Look PB Jones. You are saying nothing constructive. Basically you are implying that my customers suck as magicians and use my props to look good. And you don't like my props because the artwork is too good. Fine. Ya made your point.
Chance Wolf
Wolf's Magic
Message: Posted by: RabbitsRevenge (May 29, 2006 10:27AM)
P.B. Jones,
I am not sure WHY you are even posting in this thread? You have clearly stated that you have no intention of ever performing this type of effect. Not to mention you have not purchased it and have never seen it live.
So tell us, what is your purpose? To bless us with your "professional opinion" and save us all from our own stupidity knowing that we do not have the basic knowledge to come to your final conclusions/opinions?
Or is it that you and your buddies have a reputation for coming into the Café and slamming dealers and manufacturers for no paticular reason except it makes you feel important?
Please let us in on your deepest thougths so we can become better performers and a wiser more caring person like yourself.
RR
Message: Posted by: magicbern (May 29, 2006 10:31AM)
I agree with you Chance: it seems that Mr. Jones has his own impressions of what Children's entertainment is. I just find it incredulous that he has performed the same act for 20 yrs basically without new props. In Hong Kong, it would be suicidal to perform the same act for a market that relies a lot on word of mouth recommendation and repeat bookings.
Anyway, Im a great fan of your innovative approach to kids magic and know that to get quality props you have to pay top dollar. I am sure Mr. jones understands this principle - based on the fact he is so proud of his 400 pound jeans. If the function of jeans are just to cover your private parts then why the need for such high-priced ones? The same applies to magic props - I'd rather get a sure-fire universal appeal Wolf magic prop than an overpriced piece of cloth!
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (May 29, 2006 11:27AM)
HI,
The thread is called " Kovari's Turbo Bunny vs. Run Wolf Run" I merley gave my own opinion and that of others who I have spoken to regarding which they thought was the best. THE WHOLE POINT OF A THREAD CALLED "Kovari's Turbo Bunny vs. Run Wolf Run" I would have thought. Then Smartini jumped in with basicaly a classist remark ....


"I also agree with Mr. Lucky in that most people will shy away from Wolfs magic based solely on the price. Funny how everyone wants quality but not enough to pay for it."


........

I responded to this but I have never said your product was crap or poor, just that in my opinion the other product was superior.
I am sorry if you do not like my view but there it is
maybe you would have prefered the thread to be called HAIL WOLF PRODUCTS!

........

I just find it incredulous that he has performed the same act for 20 yrs basically without new props. In Hong Kong, it would be suicidal to perform the same act for a market that relies a lot on word of mouth recommendation and repeat bookings.

Hi,
my market relies on word of mouth too, several performers Terry Herbert, Terry Seabrooke, Billy Mcomb to name a few all gave the same advise years ago which basicaly said. don't keep changing your act, get an act Tweak it refine it Terry herbert had been doing his kids show the same one for 13years then that was at least 20 years ago and yes its the act that's on the Terry Herbert DVD the one he still performs.
Phillip


P.B. Jones,
I am not sure WHY you are even posting in this thread? You have clearly stated that you have no intention of ever performing this type of effect. Not to mention you have not purchased it and have never seen it live.
So tell us, what is your purpose? To bless us with your "professional opinion" and save us all from our own stupidity knowing that we do not have the basic knowledge to come to your final conclusions/opinions?
Or is it that you and your buddies have a reputation for coming into the Café and slamming dealers and manufacturers for no paticular reason except it makes you feel important?
Please let us in on your deepest thougths so we can become better performers and a wiser more caring person like yourself.
RR

Hi,
reading your post I am sure there are many other things that "you are not sure why" about I will leave it at that
Phillip
Message: Posted by: Marvello (May 29, 2006 11:36AM)
This is the problem with these "versus" threads - they almost always degrade in to childish name-calling and veer wildly from the topic at hand.

Basically it boils down to this - if you are attracted to Chance's wild & wacky graphic style then you really can't do any better than his props. If you prefer less intricate graphics because you feel that they read better from farther away, then there are plenty of those to choose from.

Everyone who has actually gotten a RWR from Chance has stated that the quality is top-notch, as usual. People are also happy with Turbo Bunny, and that is fine, since it is also a well-made high-quality prop as well. There is no need to take sides here. There are plenty of props for all types of tastes.
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (May 29, 2006 11:43AM)
P.S The Jeans where almost $400 not Pounds.
..................................................
I'd rather get a sure-fire universal appeal Wolf magic prop than an overpriced piece of cloth!

And that's your choice/opinion and I would not expect you to have purchased a pair of each before you could comment wether you liked the visual look of each, if this was a thread called..... designer Jeans Vrs Std label jeans I would be happy to comment on my experiences ... however its not
Phillip
Message: Posted by: Jizmagic (May 29, 2006 11:52AM)
To get back to the question that someone posed about the mechanics of RWR. I have a run rabbit run that I have used in my shows for years. I received my RWR several days ago. I can compare the mechanics this way - I owned a Subaru Legacy for many years (until I crashed it into a cow - a different story), to which I then purchased a BMW. Both are excellent cars, but the BMW far surpasses the Subaru in many respects (mechanics, handling, etc.) Run Wolf Run is the BMW of this line. I find it much easier to use than the original. I've tested it out in front of a group of ten children, who thought it was my "best" and "funniest" trick that I do. Will it be seen by a larger group? This Friday I'm performing for 800 people - This will be in my show, and I'll report back as to whether it can be seen "at the back". But I have no worries about the mechanics - all aspects of the wolf move with a slight touch of my finger. I especially like the fact the wolf can appear above his own house (again, with an easy touch of my finger).
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 29, 2006 12:41PM)
Thanks for getting back to the point, Jizmagic. A short 2c worth about fancy props, though....
Bright, colourful props enhance a kidshow, period. If you don't have such props, if your props are old and tired, but your routines shine, imagine what a new splash of colour can add to your show. I have a busking background, so I will happily work new material, and improvise in front of a live audience. My style is "half scripted, half spur-of-the-moment". And Wacky Wolf props Work Wonders! I never repeat the same show for the same group of kids.
I'm not saying PB Jones' approach is wrong, nor that mine is right, but we all choose to get up and perform in our own style. I love cartoons, so do the kids, and we all love big funky props.
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (May 29, 2006 05:54PM)
Some people have commented on where's the magic? That would be the mysterious wolf appearing in all manner of places, apparently on his own. You also have the surprise appearance of the wolf from wherever you like. Isn't this magical or am I missing something?

I just opened my RWR today and it's simply amazing.

Another comment on the visibility thing...I wouldn't call it busy but rather detailed and quality artwork. Both of these are a rare thing in magic. Usually you get a dragon or something resembling Mr. Stickman. Also, if any performer claims to not see the rabbit running across the barren geography that is the Turbo Bunny then one might think they are really thick.
Message: Posted by: Michael238 (May 29, 2006 09:25PM)
The magic is in the performer. Does not matter about either prop. In the right hands, either, or both will be a smashing success, or a comple failure, depending on the performer.
Message: Posted by: rogueclown (May 29, 2006 10:54PM)
Very true mrLucky. but IMHO Wolf's Magic makes me feel a lot more confident in my abilities to perform as a children't entertainer. I know that my props will never fail me. So, I am not knocking Turbo Bunny down, I just enjoy Run Wolf Run a lot more. You get what you pay for. My wife asked me how much I paid for Run Wolf Run. I told her how much and she did not even blink about it. She said that is was a great prop. It did surprise her with the pop up feature over the coop. Thanks Chance. Everyone take care!
RogueClown
Message: Posted by: Carlos Hampton (May 30, 2006 05:03AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-28 10:22, Chance Wolf wrote:
Sorry, but I gotta defend my prop. ...
Wolf's magic
[/quote]

I don't think so Chance. Your company appears to be doing pretty well without the need of defending anything. You have stated your guidelines of work, and they include quality, and customer service, so with all due the respects, you are just waisting your time when you try to defend something that you know is good, and customers are telling so.

Just my 2 cents....on a different token.

You know you have me among your fans, but I will have to agree with one of the opinions stated somewhere else, that the fun is there and is important, but the magic is very weak. Let's all go back to the basics that besides entertainers we are magicians, and we shold perform magic. That is why I was asking you to maybe release more products that shy away from sucker effects.

There are so many of these effects you can include on a specific show. I cannot image doing a show with blow yur stack, hip hop magician and the RWR. If there are magicians doing these 3 effects along some other sucker tricks, I just can feel sorry for the magic is been presented to the public overall. I still include one or two sucker effects in my kids shows, but I am trying to elimate them all.
I think these effects at the end promote the attitude of the audience of that "need" to catch the magician.

Before everyone jumps on my case, I am not saying that ALL wolf products are like this, but there is a good percentage of them (in my opinion) I would love to see the Wolf talent to be more focused onto some other magical effects.

Once again I congratule you for your work, your values and your vision.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 30, 2006 06:44AM)
I don't think Hip Hop magician and RWR would work in the same show really. I see them both as opening effects, once you have done your introduction. Blow Yur Stack is really better for older kids, so again, it wouldn't be likely that I would put them in the same show. All these items are ones that would surely be included early in a show. But if I feel a show needs more "magic", there are plenty of quick tricks that inject that element. For instance, when I run a game of "Blow Yur Stack" (which is how I see it, rather than a trick), I always start off with "Rockin' Cheese", which IS very magical and fast. That introduces the cheese theme. Blow Yur Stack is hilarious if done right, and I always get a fantastic reaction. I wear a blindfold bag over my head which adds to the comedy, and also makes me appear more magical.
The "run" theme was never especially magical to adults, but it's proved its worth to entertainers for many years, because kids LOVE that plot!
Message: Posted by: Michael238 (May 30, 2006 03:11PM)
Eddie, I am with you. I feel more comfortable with the high quality of Wolf Magic.
I have a bunch of it, so do not get me wrong, I am a Wolf Magic fan.
They look great, and work even better!
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (May 30, 2006 05:49PM)
Carlos,
As you know, I respect you as my customer and appreciate your opinion and support. Please remember, we are a new company and have a ways to go in creating new products. However, we have been releasing new effects or new versions of old ideas at a pretty good rate.
I have to disagree that I am have too many sucker effects. Actually only 3 out of 17 are sucker effects. If you include all my products, I am sure you will find a nice variety of effects from pure magic to classic sucker effects.
I must stress an important point in performing for kids. The "Magic" is NOT always as important as the Entertainment. Some of you may break out in hives when I say this but it is true. The point is to create as much FUN as possible with Magic being the vehicle. If one mixes up some great "Magic" along with some fun, but not to "magical" effects, I can assure you the kids could care less...just the little magicians in the audience will criticise you :)
I honestly am not as concerned with the "magic" of my products as I am the entertainment value. That's my philosophy and I'm sticking to it :)
Remember, I do not expect everyone to buy EVERY trick I make ( thank God some do ) and that is why I have a variety of "Sucker effects" as well as "Magical effects".
Once again, I appreciate your opinion and no need for anyone to be offended as I understand your points.
Take care
Chance
Message: Posted by: NJJ (May 30, 2006 10:58PM)
It should be pointed out that it is not a case of 'magic vs. entertainment'.

The two are not mutually exclusive although I have heard magicians have complaints made about them because it was 'all jokes and not much magic' as well as magicians defend their lack of entertainment value because they are 'magicians'!

In recent years I have tried to strive for both great magic and great entertainment together.
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (May 30, 2006 11:31PM)
Nicholas,
That was the point I was attempting to make. I think it is best to have a nice balance. That is a recipe for sure success!
Take care
Chance
Message: Posted by: Carlos Hampton (May 31, 2006 01:27AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-30 23:58, Nicholas J. Johnson wrote:
It should be pointed out that it is not a case of 'magic vs. entertainment'.

The two are not mutually exclusive although I have heard magicians have complaints made about them because it was 'all jokes and not much magic' as well as magicians defend their lack of entertainment value because they are 'magicians'!

In recent years I have tried to strive for both great magic and great entertainment together.
[/quote]

I completely agree, but there is a buch of fellow magicians out there that are forgetting the magic side completely and getting entertaiment (for who) mostly out of sucker effects. I think this is not good for magic overall, and this type of presentations is what cause that "sting" in the audience and that desire and belive that is their duty to catch the magician.
Message: Posted by: NJJ (May 31, 2006 05:15AM)
The think a good die box routine can be magical, entertaining and a sucker effect!
Message: Posted by: esther_scheffer (May 31, 2006 03:02PM)
I think the RRR/RWR/R___R effect is not about "catching" the magigian.
It is about helping the (not too clever cq foolish hower greatly appreciated) magigian. The magiian just does not see the rabbit/wolf/... run around and the intention of the kids when shouting and screeming is to HELP (not to catch) the magigian. "IT'S BEHIND YOU!!!" (Never seen a kid being focussed on "hey I KNOW, the magigian is just moving his hand to make the rabbit/wolf/... run.

About the one versus they other.
If I had the money to own both I would tend to use the turbo bunny for the really young ones (up to age 4 or maybe 5) and the RWR for the older + mixed groups.
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (May 31, 2006 05:24PM)
[quote]

I completely agree, but there is a buch of fellow magicians out there that are forgetting the magic side completely and getting entertaiment (for who) mostly out of sucker effects. I think this is not good for magic overall, and this type of presentations is what cause that "sting" in the audience and that desire and belive that is their duty to catch the magician.
[/quote]

All in the presentation...I like the way Terry Herbert plays a "sucker" trick...the children are the ones who do the magic and the ones that help him...this same line of thinking is the recommended presentation with RWR...I totally agree with not going down the "I'm the clever magician" tone as it can rightly put off your audience.
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 1, 2006 09:07AM)
I honestly am not as concerned with the "magic" of my products as I am the entertainment value. That's my philosophy and I'm sticking to it


Hi,
this is evident by the amazing colour changing back wall on the demo of Blammo box!

http://www.wolfsmagic.com/KA_BLAMMO.htm

:yikes:

Maybe its a bonus effect ;)

Lovely looking prop but basic black art mistake for such a pricy prop
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (Jun 1, 2006 10:31AM)
My mother once said...if ya aint got anthing good to say...nobody will want to play with you :)
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jun 1, 2006 12:27PM)
Chance,

I think Phillip was giving constructive criticism with a little humor. I do not think he was trying to say anything unkind. Watching the video it is a stark color change when the inside walls turn from black when you put your hand in to drop the hank and to the BRIGHT yellow when the walls fall down. I thought it was quite noticeable and weakens the effect.

Your stuff is very well made and of the highest quality. You obviously take a lot of pride in your products and with so much of the overseas garbage that is passing for props it is nice to be able to find a Cadillac in a sea of Hyundai's.

That being said, I think the trick would be a lot more deceptive if the walls were also black. It would make the prop a bit less colorful but it would be a heck of a lot more magical IMHO. Who knows, maybe only us magic guys would notice the stark change. I do think Phillip has a valid point in this case. I also know I would feel a lot more confident about it if it were my prop if those fall down walls were flat black on the inside. JOGO YMMV

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 1, 2006 02:13PM)
Philip and Dan, thanks for pointing that out. I'm not sure if that panel will show if the KaBlammo is worked differently. If it is still too obvious, my KaBlammo will henceforth have a black rear panel. It's a very easy modification, a sheet of black felt costs about 40p. Kids glue is ideal to stick felt, and comes off clean. It may not be neccessary though, I've used the KaBlammo several times, and mostly got a gasp of amazement once I finally work the effect. I create a snowstorm just before it works, so the audience's eyes are momentarily distracted.
It would be fair to point out that Chance puts out many items, and with every one he has a remarkable track record. I own all his Kids props except the Snake basket. Every single prop is exceptional, I use them all regularly, and always have fun with them. There have been small problems, such as the one with the rear yellow panel you kindly pointed out, and I had a small problem with my weasel mechanism at first. Of course, Chance stands behind all his products and always helps solve any problems. All my Wolf Magic props now work fully, and flawlessly. They're fun and there's plenty of magic when it's needed.
You have to think of Wolf's Magic as art. The Outhouse especially, is a thing of great beauty to those of us with childish minds.....a toilet so painstakingly hand made. Really, the attention to detail is unbelievable!....And it comes with a routine that's such a great twist on an already classic plot!
It's a joy to work with such cool props, which are so original and fun. My audiences can't get enough of Wolf's Magic!
Message: Posted by: magicinsight (Jun 1, 2006 02:26PM)
Instead of black felt, could you paint it with a flat black paint?

Michael
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (Jun 1, 2006 02:48PM)
Hey folks,
PB Jones is correct. This was an oversight and will be corrected at our cost for everyone who has purchased this effect. The emails are going out later this evening explaining the solution and how we will handle it. PLEASE do NOT do anything to your prop until we have contacted you.
OK Phillip. You can pat yourself on the back and go tell all your friends that you alone have shaved the WOLF!! :)
Take care
Chance
Message: Posted by: Andy Wonder (Jun 1, 2006 04:50PM)
Congratulations p.b.jones
Message: Posted by: Wizzy (Jun 1, 2006 05:06PM)
It is great to realise that there are good guys about who can pick up the flaws and put them forward so that things can be put right.
Well done P.B.Jones
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Jun 1, 2006 06:34PM)
Now I've got images of p.b. shaving chance stuck in my head.


to be honest, I didn't notice the problem at all when I watched the video. But I guess you fix these things not for the 99 people who didn't notice but for the one who did.
Message: Posted by: rogueclown (Jun 1, 2006 06:39PM)
P.b.jones,
Do you also make magic? I looked at your website, It was hard to figure out if you build props too. I would love a link of your show. I always try to see what other performers are doing out there so that I can be sure that what I am doing is the best show that families can watch. Oh, by the way, you must have watched that video a lot. Where you thinking of using it in your show? I know that you have done your act for awhile, but change is good. It is an AWESOME prop!!!! Even you may be able to appreciate the hard work that Wolf's Magic has put into their props....DO YOU have any of Wolf's Magic or you just like tearing peoples work apart? It sounds like you need a hug p.b..OH, now back to the topic...I prefer Run Wolf Run to Turbo Bunny....HEY p.b. do you have Turbo Bunny?
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 1, 2006 07:43PM)
Do you also make magic? I looked at your website, It was hard to figure out if you build props too

Hi,
no I do not build props, what on my website made you think I did?
I do build my own rainbow houses but just for my own use from plastic as it wears better (stays looking good longer)all the comersial ones are made from wood and as the plastic houses and tube are a closer fit (you will understand if you have one) the magic is stronger.

"Even you may be able to appreciate the hard work that Wolf's Magic has put into their props....DO YOU have any of Wolf's Magic or you just like tearing peoples work apart?"

I do apreaciate the work that Chance has put into his items , are you saying that because he put in all that work that he and his props are beyond constuctive critism ? Yes I have his pocket french guilotine. But I do enjoy trying to make my material/effects as strong as possible whilst making them as entertaining as possible too... I do not really subscribe to the no one will notice subtltys group of opinion...

phillip
Message: Posted by: Wizzy (Jun 5, 2006 01:46PM)
Rogue clown you sound like you are of the school - great props make great tricks.

Wrong! A prop is merely a puzzle. You are the one that elevates a puzzle into trick (and if you are really good into a superb trick).

Let me refer you to page 39 in Ken Weber's Maximum Entertainment. It may change the way you look at others comments. Your critism of p.b.jones was not at all constructive.

Wizzy
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 6, 2006 12:22AM)
I know I'm going to spark much controversy by saying this, but I do find this notion that it's the magician who "makes" a trick is taken too far. Of course, the performer would be well advised to work on his style, ability, patter, and so forth. But to imagine that the tricks, and the props included in a show, are just "puzzles", makes magicians out to be just toy demonstrators. Does this mean that a "real" magician would never use specially made props?
I have a large repertoire, and regularly see the same kids up to ten times a year. I find it essential, or at least highly desirable, to have new material for repeat performances. I simply don’t have enough “clever” sleight of hand tricks to fill ten hours of shows for every age. But I do have enough props and bits of business to make it possible. Folks often comment on the fact that every time they see me, the show is totally different. And every time I hold the kids’ attention no problem. As I’ve said before, I own most of Chance Wolf’s props, as well as many more collected over the years. In every show there are several things I always require. Strong opening effects, good audience participation items, “wow!” factor items, animation, a trick with Dad, one or two puppet routines, a BIG finale, and I’m sure to include at least two large props. Often these are Wolf props, though not always. These props elevate the show by providing colour, excitement, and originality. At least at the moment Wolf products are fairly exclusive, no one in my area has any (as far as I‘m aware).
For the seasoned performer, virtually ANY prop can work to provide laughs, and entertainment. I get a laugh just putting my coat on! I don’t have to invest in new props, I could go on holiday a couple more times each year if I didn’t. But I LOVE to have something new to work with. Big props also look great on my website and attract customers. The marketing value of Wolf’s props means they pay for themselves very quickly. And my Flying Carpet has made me thousands of pounds, as it’s an add-on, and folks pay extra for it.
Here are some “self-working” tricks that I use in my shows, they are ALL winners:
Funhouse, KaBlammo, Outhouse, ABC Gumball Recombobulator, Wacky Weasel, Chicken Sword, (and most of the rest of Wolf’s magic props), Flag-O-Matic and Magic Box (Barry Mitchell), Psychokinetic Bolt, In the News, Nielsen Ketchup vanish, Axtell’s Drawing Board, Flito Flower, Appearing Pole, Magic Mirror, Needle thru balloon, PB&J, Zig-Zag can, Healed & Sealed, ESP prediction board, the Amazing Sword Swallowing Feat, Flying Carpet.
There are lots more that could be added to this list. For me, the choice of tricks in a show is about audience impact. Skill level is irrelevant, it’s something that only magicians ever consider. Laymen can rarely tell a self-working trick from sleight-of-hand. A good trick is a good trick, period. If a rank amateur and a highly experienced pro were both to demonstrate “Coin Thru Rubber” for instance, both would easily fool their audience. But the pro would make it more showy, and engage his audience more, that’s all.
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 6, 2006 01:55AM)
Laymen can rarely tell a self-working trick from sleight-of-hand. A good trick is a good trick, period. If a rank amateur and a highly experienced pro were both to demonstrate “Coin Thru Rubber” for instance, both would easily fool their audience. But the pro would make it more showy, and engage his audience more, that’s all.


Hi,
unfourtunately when making comparisons in this type of debate the defense of self working items (I have nothing particularly against them)is usually as above a slieght man with no personality compared with a quote "pro" who is apparently incompetent at slieght of hand magic but a real good performer what should be compared is two performers of equal entertainment levels. First I think that yous statement "Laymen can rarely tell a self-working trick from sleight-of-hand."
is very very debatable I personaly do not agree. However that aside I think that a entertaining performer wether using slieght of hand,selfworking or a balance of both would benifit by using effects which are highly entertaining and strong magicaly , there is enough magic out there that in my opinion to pick a large selection of effects for your show witch have weak effect magicialy is only letting your self down. (I am not implying that RWR or TURBO Bunny fall in this catagory this just happens to be where the point was raised.)but short changing you audience too.
Phillip
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 6, 2006 05:51AM)
Phillip, don't imagine that I'm knocking real acts of skill, great manipulation acts are surely the pinnacle of the conjurer's art. A card fanning routine, a good miser's dream, silk manipulations, are real eye candy. They also take years to perfect. But as you imply, it's possible to have an act comprising entirely of self-working effects (for my younger shows, this is largely true, though I throw in a few wand twirls and palm the odd coin, etc.) RWR is one of these, I'm about to use mine first time today for a three-year old's party. I'm looking for maximum entertainment value, and my guess is the kids will go nuts for the naughty wolf!
When I made the comment about laymen not knowing sleight-of-hand from automatic props, I guess I was thinking about a kids show, and not close-up. No doubt, great skill at close-up is normally much more evident, since the miracles performed are SO incredible. Yet even in that field, many self-working effects seem like that too. Eg Chinese Bit by Eddie Gibson, do you know it? Try Spellbound (fairly easy, just one sleight), followed by Chinese Bit. Your audience will credit you with enormous skill, when really you only learned a few basic sleights.
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 6, 2006 06:00AM)
Hi,
I was not really making an argument for slieghts but for strong magic effects wether they be self working or slieght of hand.

My personal contention is that an outstanding performance of a trick which is weak magicaly is bound to be inferior to a similarly outstanding performace of a trick whick is also magicaly outstanding. why would someone with the huge array of strong effects deliberately choose weak effects......... ?
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 6, 2006 08:55AM)
"My personal contention is that an outstanding performance of a trick which is weak magicaly is bound to be inferior to a similarly outstanding performace of a trick whick is also magicaly outstanding. why would someone with the huge array of strong effects deliberately choose weak effects......... ?"
A trick which is "weak magically" to an adult is likely to be entrancing to a three year old. RRR is hardly the most magical trick in the World, yet it ranks as one of the most popular effects amongst 3-5 year olds. Lovey Duck (a variation of the same theme, similar to "At The Zoo" type effects) is a hugely popular effect for 3-5 year-olds. Likewise many "story" tricks are the favourites of 5-7 year-olds. It's only for the 7-10 year old group and above that every trick has to astonish.
Message: Posted by: revlovejoy (Jun 6, 2006 10:03AM)
Potty, tell me where you got the "self-working" healed and sealed. I have to do all the "work" when I do it. ;)
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 6, 2006 11:11AM)
It's only for the 7-10 year old group and above that every trick has to astonish.

HI,
But just because it does not HAVE to astonish does not mean that it is not a good thing or indeed a further enhancement. Why settle for less than the best you can do just because its not essential? I personaly aim to exceed what is expected of me


Who ranked RRR as "one of the best effects amongst 3-5 year olds" ?
based on what hard facts?

I often think that these ratings are based on what plays best (easiest) for many magicians ... but this comes down to the effects they are showing the kids. the same old stuff , because its easy to go buy the prop make up a totaly stupid story and get a reasonable response. Often the reason this effect plays best is simply because the rest of the show is even less magical. 2 -31/2 ish I can see that they have no real understanding of magic as such and the impact is not really an issue. but once they are 4 ish I think it is an important element
Phillip
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 6, 2006 01:45PM)
RevLovejoy, the Healed & Sealed I'm talking about is the Soda can, where nature does all the work for you.
Phillip, RRR simply IS one of the best items for 3-5 year-olds. They love the "look no see" principle, they love stories, and they love the colourful props. I always include at least one effect where something "peeps out" in my shows. At the Zoo, Pet Shop, Wacky weasel, rabbit in dice, Lovey Duck, Run Rabbit Run, are all firm favourites. How do I know? I do hundreds of kids' shows every year, and I ask the kids what their favourite thing in the show was. These tricks are the ones most often chosen by this age group. Not to mention the fact that they scream their heads off during the effect. One of my absolute top items for this age group is "Five Little Ducks". Nearly every time I show it, at least one kid shouts: "Again!" Flito flower is also very popular. Why do the kids like these tricks so much? Because there is a story - however stupid - that they relate to. Whether it's a Wolf stealing eggs, Little Red Riding Hood and Grandma, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, a Naughty Weasel, a Mischievous Monkey, or a Slippery snake.
I'm curious, what effects would you recommend for the 3-5 age group, Phillip?
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 6, 2006 05:22PM)
Phillip, RRR simply IS one of the best items for 3-5 year-olds.

How do I know? I do hundreds of kids' shows every year, and I ask the kids what their favourite thing in the show was. These tricks are the ones most often chosen by this age group


Not to mention the fact that they scream their heads off during the effect.


HI,.
this just comes down to your opinion, they have no real choice but to pick the best of the effects that YOU PERFORM this might well be a favourite in YOUR SHOW . but it is of no real validity when it comes to "One of the best things for 3 -5 yrs old" If I where to use that as criteria for the best trick we would have a very different outcome as I do not perform any of the effects you have listed above.I personally do not rate shouting there heads off as any real indication of enjoyment I am not a huge fan of too much shouting in my act. some controlled shouting yes but not too much. as I said up to about 3 3/4 to 4yrs fine I agree the propy baby effects are fine as they do not understand the concept of magic much at all . personaly I don't mind them in the audience but I would not book a 3 yrs old party, unless it was a party with the majority of kids 4 or over. I would perform Rainbow house rabbit production I have a routine which runs about 6 -7 mins(+several more mins with the produced bunny) which includes magician in trouble, me getting hit several times,vanishing wand under a skarf, lots of colour, a child trying to catch the silks and one visualy dissapearing in mid air!, a visual colour change of four silks to white silks, the vanish of the four white silks, the house colouring the production of a rabbit then busines with the rabbit tossing a wand to the floor when I am not looking and other bussines which I prefer to keep to myself.
the effects in my act are effects which allow me to interact closely with my audience , use the helpers personality as an entertaining factor by bringing the kids out of themselves I am performing with the kids I tease them I push them about to an extent...... I play with them! But with a solid magic effect at the core of it all.
Phillip
Message: Posted by: RabbitsRevenge (Jun 6, 2006 07:34PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-06 18:22, p.b.jones wrote:
I personally do not rate shouting there heads off as any real indication of enjoyment I am not a huge fan of too much shouting in my act. some controlled shouting yes but not too much.
[/quote]

WOW!! I guess that just about sums it up. And you are a CHILDRENS ENTERTAINER??!!
Man...maybe you should find a new line of work.
RR
Message: Posted by: rogueclown (Jun 6, 2006 07:39PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-06 18:22, p.b.jones wrote:
I personally do not rate shouting there heads off as any real indication of enjoyment I am not a huge fan of too much shouting in my act. some controlled shouting yes but not too much.
[/quote]

I do not understand. If a kid is SCREAMING during your show, I do not think it is because he/she is in pain. I know that when I perform...let's say...Run Wolf Run put out by Wolf's Magic...They are having fun, screaming, giggling, and smiling. I know for sure that smiling means that they are enjoying my show. I am brand new to this whole thing, all I do know is there are a lot of people in the Café that post truly great things and they share so much of themselves with everybody.
THEN, Some people post almost every single day, and they don't say much at all. If they do say something it just seems that it is Always negative and just straight out rude and pompous and full of themselves. That is my opinion. Could someone please email me page 39?
RC
Message: Posted by: Andy Wonder (Jun 6, 2006 08:10PM)
Get any group of small children, feed them sugar & leave them in a room with balloons & you will almost guarantee plenty of screaming & noise. Magic is not about screaming. It is about surprise, wonder, enchantment, amazement, fun & some excitement. Anyone can easily get a group of kids wound up & screaming, but a true pro will be able to have the kids contain their excitement in order that they appreciate all the surprise, wonder, enchantment, amazement, fun etc.
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Jun 6, 2006 08:22PM)
We should rename this thread, "Attack of the Killer Bunnies!" Sounds like a Monty Python movie.

Dan.
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (Jun 6, 2006 08:25PM)
Wow,
I have to say that you guys come from a strange land that I am not familiar with. I can understand if the screaming gets out of hand to a point where it is absolute MAYHEM...but otherwise I have always had the most satisfied clients/parents after seeing the reaction of the kids screaming,laughing and having FUN. And I mean SCREAMING at times. The parents always say the same thing "Wow, they had SO MUCH FUN!"
Andy, I agree that their should be an element of wonder and amazment but the kids would get bored just "oooing and awwing" for 40 minutes. A good mix is always best which seems obvious.
I just can't believe the things I am reading from "Children's Entertainers". I really think folks are losing touch with what it is about to be a kid. I performed for many years, for children, never read one book, never really thought it was that deep of an issue as I simply became one of them...and they loved me for it.
Have fun debating this one...I am going to go be silly, break the rules and scream and yell with my nephews! Their parents seem to love it as it as much as the kids do :)
Take care
Chance
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jun 6, 2006 09:53PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-06 20:39, rogueclown wrote:

I know that when I perform...let's say...Run Wolf Run put out by Wolf's Magic...They are having fun, screaming, giggling, and smiling. [/quote]

I thought you just got the trick and only had a chance to perform it for your mom and your niece?

LOL!

You guys kill me.
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jun 6, 2006 10:05PM)
Chance and Rouge clown post some links to some video of these amazing love fests you are so fond of reminiscing about. I'd love to see if the video evidence lives up to the posts here. You guys must be two of the most amazing children's performers ever to hear you talk. I know I'd love to see it.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (Jun 6, 2006 10:27PM)
How about we all agree that we all are good at what we do, in our opinion and those of others and just enjoy doing shows the way we like to do them?
sheesh!
Chance

Back to the topic. Once again, I think Kovari's Turbo Bunny is an excellent item and I would use it every bit as much as my version. So go buy a KOVARI so we can stop the madness!!
Message: Posted by: rogueclown (Jun 6, 2006 11:04PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-06 22:53, Danny Hustle wrote:
I thought you just got the trick and only had a chance to perform it for your mom and your niece?


[/quote]
Hey Danny,
I have performed it at 7 paid gigs so far and it was worth every penny. I am pretty sure that I posted that here or maybe it was in one of the 3 threads that are going on about Run Wolf Run. I found something that I really love and enjoy using. (Wolf's Magic)
Have you ever found something that excites you or are you just doing the same routine and not having fun. I love performing. I was on the road with Ringling Brothers for 2 years. ( as a clown, not the guy behind the elephant) This is what I do. AND I do it well. I have fun and make sure the kids and grown-ups are having fun too. SO, Run Wolf Run fits my character more than the Turbo bunny does.
Thanks. ( What Love Fest are YOU talking about...are you in the right forum?)
RC
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Jun 7, 2006 12:48AM)
I agree with everything anyone has ever thought or said on this topic...oops, sorry that's my line if I'm kidnapped by Al Queda.
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 7, 2006 01:43AM)
Hi,
I am sorry if you consider those with a different opinion of things than yourself to be rude! I do actualy make a lot of positive posts too but people tend not to notice , I have also posted several routines ext in the past. I personaly do enjoy the debate too and I think it would be a boring forum if all that was on it was "Hail ......." the greatest most awesome effect ever. because everyone is to quiet to voice there honest opinion (I know of several people who no longer post because of the back lash they get from not particularly agreeing with others) I do try not to get personal even when people often do with me.


"WOW!! I guess that just about sums it up. And you are a CHILDRENS ENTERTAINER??!!
Man...maybe you should find a new line of work.
RR "

"THEN, Some people post almost every single day, and they don't say much at all. If they do say something it just seems that it is Always negative and just straight out rude and pompous and full of themselves."

" Even you may be able to appreciate the hard work that Wolf's Magic has put into their props....DO YOU have any of Wolf's Magic or you just like tearing peoples work apart? It sounds like you need a hug p.b.."

Anyway lets forget that


.........................
Chance wrote "I agree that their should be an element of wonder and amazment but the kids would get bored just "oooing and awwing" for 40 minutes. A good mix is always best which seems obvious. "


I thought that is basicaly what I said too, you just tried to flip it

"

I personally do not rate shouting there heads off as any real indication of enjoyment I am not a huge fan of too much shouting in my act. some controlled shouting yes but not too much."

I am saying that some shouting is an element of the show but not to much which is not really far off saying "A good mix is always best which seems obvious. "

My contention though is that shouting alone is no real indecation of enjoyment, laughter,gasps, attentivness to the show, the fact that you have control and can bring them up to shouting and back down to arpeciate the magical moments is more of an indication in my book
Phillip
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 7, 2006 02:21AM)
Phillip, by your own admission you wouldn't even accept a gig for 3-year olds. I do this regularly, and always have great success. So I think it’s a question of my experience or your theory. If effects such as “Run Rabbit Run” didn’t work, no one would be making them. Yet this theme has been repeated and repeated for decades. I have been performing “Lovey Duck” for many many years, and when I did my first kids’ parties aged 9, Lovey Duck was the favourite with this age group even then. Stories, especially ones that they're familiar with, are the winners. They also love big “machine” type props that they get to work themselves. For 4-year olds you can certainly include some stronger magic, see their eyes light up at a Miser's Dream routine. But what do they ADORE? Daft stories and colourful props. That you choose not to use any of the tricks I mentioned, which includes several “classics” of kids magic, makes me wonder where you’re coming from? As you don't even use any of these types of effects, how can you comment on them?
You only describe one trick that you perform, the Rainbow House. I know the “rabbit from the hat” is a big winner, but let's be honest, the rabbit is just a prop that guarantees oohs and aaahs. I prefer to use puppets, which actually the kids PREFER! Why? Because they can talk with and interact with a puppet, a rabbit is just a rabbit (and lots of PC parents these days don't want a show with livestock, people ask regularly about that).
I also wonder what happens when you have a young group that have never seen an entertainer before? These kids often don’t react as quickly or fully as kids who have experience of being entertained. But then, as you don’t work with younger kids, this maybe never happens to you?
As for those of you who think kids screaming is undesirable at a kids’ party, I really think you need to re-evaluate your performance. I aim to get a reaction from the kids several times every minute, whether that’s a laugh, scream, answer to a question, gasp, whatever. If your audiences are sitting there quietly through your performance, maybe they’re not enjoying it as much as you think. Controlled reactions, sure, but lots of them, and noisy too! With RWR, you can control exactly when and how long the kids scream and laugh. It’s this reaction that parents will largely use to gauge the success of your performance.
Put it like this, if you regularly get back from your gigs to find messages from other parents who saw you just minutes before, who want to book you for their child’s party, if parents will routinely move their kids’ party to a date weeks from the actual event, just to be sure you can be there, then you’re obviously doing something right. There are of course no absolutes.
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 7, 2006 05:34AM)
HI,
For the record yes I do get bookings as above, I will probably forever regret putting this here because I just know it will end up getting ripped off (performed by others with out my permission and maybe marketed (they will just come up with another method or guess at mine) anyway here is a strong routine that I perform no rabbit! But I am pretty sure you will see the entertainment value in as it has certain aspects of RRR or RWR but with some pretty decent magic. the little ones love it but so do the 12yr olds and the 112 year olds!

This is an very rough outline I am not giving method or patter here. (the perfomer is wearing a jacket.)

The magician shows a red silk in his right hand, his left hand is shown empty, holding his hands wide apart he explains that the red silk is going to vannish and reapear in his left hand, using just the right hand the silk is fed into his fist. the body makes a bit of a wiggle and to the amusement of the audience the silk is visibly seen to run accross the opening of the jacket (in front of shirt behgned jacket) the right hand is opened to show nothing the silk is now in the left hand, this can be repeated as often as desired the silk going left to right and then back. the audience think it is going up the sleeves and accross so you finaly pull up your sleeves and perform it once more , however it vannishes completely ... only to reapapear under a childs collar or in your mouth or where ever you fancy really!

Phillip
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jun 7, 2006 09:03AM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-07 00:04, rogueclown wrote:
Hey Danny,
I love performing. I was on the road with Ringling Brothers for 2 years. ( as a clown, not the guy behind the elephant) This is what I do. AND I do it well. RC

[/quote]

I'd love to see some photos or video proof of this. Where is your website? The "love fest" I was talking about was how fantastic you say your show is. The reason you made the statement was to qualify your opinion about what a fantastic performer you are. It had nothing to do with Cance's props. I have always said he is an amazing craftsman and his props are second to none.

I have seen video of PB work and I know for a fact that he is a fantastic children's entertainer. He does not feel the need to go around telling anyone how great he is, his show speaks for itself. I do not always agree with his opinions (more often than not I do) but I know for a fact he is qualified to speak on the subject.

I have seen many of your posts talking about how great you are usually said to clarify a point and I thought that if your show was so amazing you would probably be proud to put up some video of photographs proving your qualifications as well as your statements. I look forward to seeing them. I have many friends who worked for RB what years were you with the show?

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jun 7, 2006 09:07AM)
Phillip,

That is a fantastic routine! Lots of opportunity for interaction with the audience as well as adding a lot of personality. Not to mention it sounds very magical!

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (Jun 7, 2006 10:48AM)
I am out of here.It started out as fun...then...
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 7, 2006 11:01AM)
HI,
Chance you are right it is starting to get a bit out of hand and off topic (partly my fault) though the posts on magic content are quite interesting I wonder if a modorator could move them to another topic?
phillip
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 7, 2006 05:34PM)
Phillip, I think your routine sounds great, I still don't see it affects the fact that RRR is a classic of kids' magic, though. I also wouldn't worry about getting your ideas ripped off so easily. If you shared your ideas plenty, as I try to do, you may find you become more creative, that's certainly how I see it.
Danny Hustle, what are you going on about? Do you really think RC can't put on a show that can get the kids going? He owns loads of Chance Wolf props, and I can promise you his show is almost certainly STONKING! If Wolf props weren't working for him, then he wouldn't have so many, and from his attitude and posts, I guess he's doing all that's required. What's the point of speculating that maybe his show isn't that great? We're here to share ideas, not for one-upmanship (or have I missed something?)
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Jun 7, 2006 05:53PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-07 18:34, Potty the Pirate wrote:
I can promise you his show is almost certainly [b]STONKING[/b]!
[/quote]
STONKING? Is this a typo or a new slang word I am unaware of?
Message: Posted by: rogueclown (Jun 7, 2006 06:33PM)
Thanks Potty!! I appreciate your kind words!!! ( STONKING!!)
Hey Danny, I was on the Red Unit from 1999 until 2001. Ask around. I was also a United States Marine from 1993 to 1997 and YES I got out Honorably. I have been around the Country and a few places around the World too. I eat fire, juggle 5 balls, and perform Magic for Families and I am confident in my abilities. I don’t recall ever writing that I had a great show. So, If you think that I am not telling the truth why don’t you pm me so I can tell you exactly what I have done and how I feel about you in private.
RC
I still would buy Run Wolf Run over Turbo Bunny. BUT, If Wolf's Magic was not around, and then I would probably hit the streets with my Gazzo Cups and just make some fat hats. LOL!!
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Jun 7, 2006 06:42PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-07 18:34, Potty the Pirate wrote:
Phillip, I think your routine sounds great, I still don't see it affects the fact that RRR is a classic of kids' magic, though.
[/quote]

I am going to stick my neck out and say that whilst RRR is a classic piece of entertainment used by magicians it is not a classic piece of magic. It gets the screams and giggles (as it should) but I don't see a lot of great magic there.

Routines such as Phillip suggested are a great example of a routine that uses the same basic concept as RRR (children see something that magician does not in a repeated action) but also with strong magical content. (the vanish of the silk).

Magic should not be sacrificed for entertainment and entertainment should not be sacrificed for the sake of magic. There is no need to 'find a balance' as the two are not opposites. Routines can be magic AND entertaining
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Jun 7, 2006 06:46PM)
Ok- I found out what stonking means. interesting word :)
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jun 7, 2006 11:17PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-07 18:34, Potty the Pirate wrote:

Danny Hustle, what are you going on about? What's the point of speculating that maybe his show isn't that great? We're here to share ideas, not for one-upmanship (or have I missed something?)

[/quote]

My point was, and you all seemed to have missed it, RC and Chance both had a poke at Phillip by insinuating how great their shows were (and because of that, their opinion was much more qualified than Phillips). Re-read the thread.

I was not trying to one up anyone. I just think that if you are going to have a pop at someone by saying how great your show is you should be willing to back it up. If you can't, well you shouldn't be bragging. It had nothing to do with Chance's props and I think this is the third or fourth time I've said that as well.

I am not angry, trying to be a wise guy, or anything else. I do think if you are going to make comments like, "Wow, I have to say that you guys come from a strange land that I am not familiar with." and "I have always had the most satisfied clients/parents after seeing the reaction of the kids screaming,laughing and having FUN. And I mean SCREAMING at times. The parents always say the same thing 'Wow, they had SO MUCH FUN!'" and "P.b.jones,
Do you also make magic? I looked at your website, It was hard to figure out if you build props too. I would love a link of your show. I always try to see what other performers are doing out there so that I can be sure that what I am doing is the best show that families can watch. Oh, by the way, you must have watched that video a lot. Where you thinking of using it in your show? I know that you have done your act for awhile, but change is good. It is an AWESOME prop!!!! Even you may be able to appreciate the hard work that Wolf's Magic has put into their props....DO YOU have any of Wolf's Magic or you just like tearing peoples work apart? It sounds like you need a hug p.b..OH, now back to the topic...I prefer Run Wolf Run to Turbo Bunny....HEY p.b. do you have Turbo Bunny?"

I think if you are going to post stuff like that you should pony up. Nobody jumped on RC when he asked for a clip of Phillip's show. Why is what I said so insulting to some people?

You are right, about the one oneupmanship but that wasn't my idea. Since it was brought up by others I didn't see them ponying up clips of their shows and I would love to see them.

I thought this was a very interesting discussion until some people started slinging at others for no reason. Since the thread turned into a big leg wetting contest I that the guys making water should pony up.

Like I said, I'm not angry, trying to be insulting, or anything else. I certainly do not have a problem with anyone in this thread. I'd love to see the discussion go back on track. Sometimes just holding up a mirror will do that. It doesn't seem so in this case. Maybe somebody should start another thread "Big talented performers versus big colorful props."

BTW Chance Wolf's products are top shelf and those who own them should be thrilled to have such high quality props. I think it is the third or fourth time I've said that as well.

I hope that clears it up.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jun 7, 2006 11:28PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-07 19:33, rogueclown wrote:

[quote]
I eat fire, juggle 5 balls, and perform Magic for Families and I am confident in my abilities. [/quote]

Like I said, I'd love to see some video.

[quote]
I was also a United States Marine from 1993 to 1997 and YES I got out Honorably.
[/quote]

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

[quote]
I would probably hit the streets with my Gazzo Cups and just make some fat hats. LOL!!
[/quote]
What is that suppose to mean? Why don't you P.M. with the answer to that one if it was some type of an attempt to be clever.


For the record Eddie, I did ask around about you. Sounds like you need a hug LOL!!!

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jun 7, 2006 11:32PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-07 19:42, Nicholas J. Johnson wrote:
[quote]
Magic should not be sacrificed for entertainment and entertainment should not be sacrificed for the sake of magic. There is no need to 'find a balance' as the two are not opposites. Routines can be magic AND entertaining
[/quote]

Nick,

This is a great post. Perhaps we should start another thread. This one has taken more off topic turns than it should have at this point I'm afraid. I think the original thread was a comparison to the bunny and the wolf.

Tons of great information in this thread unfortunately most of it is waaay off topic.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jun 7, 2006 11:43PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-07 19:33, rogueclown wrote:

Hey Danny, why don’t you pm me so I can tell you exactly what I have done and how I feel about you in private.
RC

[/quote]

Er.. Hmm.. Gee Eddie, I'm flattered really, but I'm a married man. :)

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Jun 8, 2006 12:10AM)
I'm going to take my Turbo Bunny and Run Wolf Run outta here with all this magicians helping magicians. Let's all grab a beer or coffee or whatever it is that one needs to relax.
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 8, 2006 12:50AM)
Danny Hustle, what are you going on about? Do you really think RC can't put on a show that can get the kids going? He owns loads of Chance Wolf props, and I can promise you his show is almost certainly STONKING! If Wolf props weren't working for him, then he wouldn't have so many,

Hi,
Sorry Doug but you seem to make way too many assumtions based on little hard fact. his show is almost certianly good why? because he buys expensive props? (it might be good I don't know) but you certianly seem to be stuck on the mindset that props maketh the magicain. I have nothing against props but to me they are just a tool yes having a good set of tools is good but by no means ensures success you can give me an expensive set of paint brushes and a canvas but I assure you a rembrant I will not produce!

"Phillip, I think your routine sounds great, I still don't see it affects the fact that RRR is a classic of kids' magic"

By classic you mean? lots of magicians perform it and that's fine but then most magicians are happy to just follow the flock , make an easy buck.it does not make it the best ever or one of the best ever just the easy route! I have explained just one way to use the RRR good qualities and adapt them to a solid MAGICAL routine. there are many people out there smarter and more creative than myself who I am sure have other ways.
some one said on a thread here that a close up guy said he was not a proper magician because he just worked for kids now I am not going to argue for or agianst that ,but in my opinion one of the main reasons that childrens magic is held in such low regard amongst other magicians and magic regarded as "FOR KIDS " amongst adults is because too many childrens magicains have it in there head that the actual impact of the magic in there show is not important. going back to Ken Brookes comparison to a car trip where he said something like "Its the whole journey that makes a trip fun not just getting there" but to me at least "however fun the journey is its always better if the final destination is great too!"
Phillip
Message: Posted by: BIlly James (Jun 8, 2006 01:51AM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-07 06:34, p.b.jones wrote:
This is an very rough outline I am not giving method or patter here. (the perfomer is wearing a jacket.)

The magician shows a red silk in his right hand, his left hand is shown empty, holding his hands wide apart he explains that the red silk is going to vannish and reapear in his left hand, using just the right hand the silk is fed into his fist. the body makes a bit of a wiggle and to the amusement of the audience the silk is visibly seen to run accross the opening of the jacket (in front of shirt behgned jacket) the right hand is opened to show nothing the silk is now in the left hand, this can be repeated as often as desired the silk going left to right and then back. the audience think it is going up the sleeves and accross so you finaly pull up your sleeves and perform it once more , however it vannishes completely ... only to reapapear under a childs collar or in your mouth or where ever you fancy really!

Phillip
[/quote]

Phillip, I've got a question about your routine with the silk zapping back and forth across your chest...when you do it do you wear a really colourful and busily patterned shirt or do you wear a white shirt?
;)
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 8, 2006 02:12AM)
Phillip, I've got a question about your routine with the silk zapping back and forth across your chest...when you do it do you wear a really colourful and busily patterned shirt or do you wear a white shirt?


I like that that's funny!
phillip
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 8, 2006 03:15AM)
Maybe my idea of a "Classic" is different to some folks. By "Classic" I mean something that has stood the test of time, that worked decades ago, and still works today. An idea that has been copied, repeated, and improved countless times. It seems to me that most of you guys criticising the RRR plot don't know how to make such an item work. I agree that Phillip's "bare hand" silk version sounds great. I highly recommend entertainers (even non-magicians) to include lots of magic in their shows, but it's the routining and connection with the audience that makes the show. Some of Sean Bogunia's items would likely improve Phillip's handling of "Run Hanky Run" even more. I have a coat with heaps of pockets on it, if I performed this routine, I would also have the hanks popping up and down from lots of these. Even so, I would still make up a "stupid story" and give the silks names and a personality. The routine seems to be exactly the same plot as RRR, but as has been stated, more magical.
Rather than assume that RC's show isn't all it might be, can we not just give him the benefit of the doubt? Too much space is given on these threads to folks trying to needle others. My opinion is that RC and Chance Wolf were just reacting to some unsupported comments. Now we have a bit more information, we can grasp what is being suggested.
I know that if a performer is using Chance Wolf's props, he'd have to be appallingly bad if his shows weren't a big success, the routines are so strong. Just my opinion, and yes, I do think that professional looking props and routines elevate a show, of course they are only one element, but to assume that a show which is all "magic" and no props is superior is to miss the point.
Entertainment is what it's all about, and there are plenty of magicians who can demonstrate amazing sleight-of-hand, yet fail to engage their audience. I offer to entertain ANY group, regardless of age, size of audience, or nationality. I have a large selection of material to draw from and put together the most appropriate show for any given booking. This means constantly developing new material, frequently performing "new" shows, and investing in new props and effects from the marketplace.
I believe to be the best I can, I should gather together the best, most entertaing material I can. I really don't like "Is This The Way to Amarillo", but the kids all do, since it's been a hit recently in the UK. So, one day I learned the song and regularly perform it for kids, because they love it so. It's not strictly "magic", but it adds another dimension to my performance. Silly songs, like "stupid" stories, are very popular with kids, and it's quite possible to sing, dance, play the guitar, AND do magic at the same time!
The "quality" of magic IS important, but so is the quality of the routine, and of the performer. As I've hinted in this thread, there are ways to make RWR more magical, and I agree I think that could be a good thing. But ultimately, it's about what works for any given performer. If you can't make RWR work for you as supplied, I think there must be a big gap in your ability to connect with your audience. Imagine how great a bare-handed RRR effect would be if performed by a magician who can also get maximum mileage from a prop version.
Message: Posted by: rogueclown (Jun 8, 2006 04:00AM)
Danny. I took everything you said the wrong way. I am done with this post also. It's not worth the time or energy. I will let you know when I get some footage on my website. Until then. I hope your hat never goes empty.
RC
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 8, 2006 04:54AM)
If I performed this routine, I would also have the hanks popping up and down from lots of these. Even so, I would still make up a "stupid story" and give the silks names and a personality. The routine seems to be exactly the same plot as RRR, but as has been stated, more magical.


Hi,
The popping up from different pockets ect is something that I considered However, I decided that would actualy weaken the effect, As soon as I start letting the hank do to much it takes from the finali as they then know that they havent seen something they should'nt , the effect becomes an animated hank. I am lookinhg for clarity of effect. as Dia Vernon said confusion is not magic.


"but it's the routining and connection with the audience that makes the show. "

Hi this is the reverse of what you said above

quote"He owns loads of Chance Wolf props, and I can promise you his show is almost certainly STONKING!"

which implies the props are what matter.

anyway I wont be posting till late monday now as I am off to silverstone for the Britsh Grand Prix


Phillip
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 8, 2006 05:50AM)
Lucky you, Phillip. I have a weekend of kids shows, ho hum....hope you enjoy the racing. You clearly failed to get the inference that Wolf's Magic provide props that in themselves help to build audience connection, and ready-to-go routines. And that performers who have quality images such as RCs and work five shows in a weekend are getting it right. Anyway, the question is SO irrelevant! RC says the prop works for him, I believe he's telling the truth.
There are many magicians who have a fabulous kids' show or two. This is different to specialised kids' entertainers such as myself. I'll let you work out the difference for yourself. Your shows work for you, fine. But why criticise others' shows, and props that you've never seen? Why not say "I have a bare hand version of the RRR plot that works really great, for those of you who can't afford a new prop, or who would rather work the effect this way". The plot has the same story, yours is "better" because it's more magical? Far too subjective for me, let the audience decide.....
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jun 8, 2006 07:45AM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-08 05:00, rogueclown wrote:
Danny. I took everything you said the wrong way. I am done with this post also. It's not worth the time or energy. I will let you know when I get some footage on my website. Until then. I hope your hat never goes empty.
RC
[/quote]

Thanks Eddie, and I hope you always twist more balloons than Chubby Checker.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jun 8, 2006 08:02AM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-08 06:50, Potty the Pirate wrote:
Lucky you, Phillip. I have a weekend of kids shows, ho hum....hope you enjoy the racing. You clearly failed to get the inference that Wolf's Magic provide props that in themselves help to build audience connection, and ready-to-go routines.
[/quote]

This is pretty much what Phillip offered and that was his basis for using the strengths of these classic bits in another trick. I am pretty sure that what he was saying is while this is an excellent prop it won't make you a good performer. It is just a tool. They are excellent props, no one is arguing this.

[quote]

And that performers who have quality images such as RCs and work five shows in a weekend are getting it right.

[/quote]

I do not think that having good pictures and working a lot is a strong criteria for judging someones show. I think seeing their show is. There are a lot of hacks who have good pictures and work a lot of shows. This is not any comment on RC in any way. He may have an excellent show and I would love to see it. My comment is directed at the criteria for judging a show.

[quote]
Anyway, the question is SO irrelevant! RC says the prop works for him, I believe he's telling the truth.
[/quote]

Nobody said he wasn't telling the truth. Where is this coming from?

[quote]
There are many magicians who have a fabulous kids' show or two. This is different to specialised kids' entertainers such as myself. I'll let you work out the difference for yourself. Your shows work for you, fine. But why criticise others' shows, and props that you've never seen? Why not say "I have a bare hand version of the RRR plot that works really great, for those of you who can't afford a new prop, or who would rather work the effect this way".
[/quote]

re-reading Phillip's post that looks to me just about what he did say. I did not see him criticize anyone.

[quote]
The plot has the same story, yours is "better" because it's more magical? Far too subjective for me, let the audience decide.....
[/quote]

I don't recall him ever saying it was better. He did say it seemed a bit more magical TO HIM. Bottom line is we should all be looking for what works for us. Nobody has said anything bad about Chance's props. I think we are all in agreement that they are excellent. Where the conversation seems to have taken a left turn was where the question of performance came in and some folks some how saw this as a slam at RWR. No one in this thread has had anything bad to say about that prop that I can see.

Phillip seemed to be merely offering an alternative to explore the performing aspects of this as well as many other routines that rely on the same time tested principals.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 8, 2006 10:24AM)
There is too much waffle, folks HAVE claimed that the effect is weak, but who cares, not enough creative thinking is going on! On the original subject, I plan to compare the two props soon. Also even though this isn't quite the right thread, after all the debate, I have come up with some more ideas for RWR. Thanks to Phillip for getting me on that track of thinking. This working would mean quite a lot of initial preparation, and "RSE" takes some time to set, though "Professor Cheer" offers a harness version I believe. ALTERNATIVE “MAGICAL” ENDING FOR RWR:
(Some additional Wolves could be required, possibly Chance could offer a “head only” Wolf cutout, just half the prop, down to the shorts - designed to work as a “pop up”?) After Wolf vanishes from Coop:
The Wolf starts to pop up and down from your jacket side pocket, you don’t notice him. Finally with the kids’ help you catch him, and suggest he might make a nice pet. You tie a piece of rope around his middle, and put him in a “cage” (a suitable changing prop such as a mirror box would do). You proceed with the next effect, a quick trick, after which the Wolf again pops up from your jacket pocket. Assuring the kids that the Wolf is still in the cage, you open it to find….the Wolf has gone. Only the piece of rope remains. You reach into the cage, and a squeak tells that your hand has got bitten. You reach in again, and this time SNAP! You pull your hand out in agony, and hop around. A mousetrap is on your finger! You carefully take out the rope, claiming that the Wolf IS still there, it’s just that he’s gone invisible…….you hold the rope in your right hand, and suddenly it leaps through the air to your left hand (reel). Then, in an instant the rope vanishes from your left hand and reappears in your right hand (same reel/palmed “RSE*” rope). You now pull on the rope, and it gets longer and longer and longer. You proceed to perform “Rope Springs Eternal*” with ropes coming down arms and legs everywhere! For all this attrition you blame the Wolf. He must be at the end of the rope, no? Finally, at the end of the rope you are pulling from your trouser leg, you pull out the Wolf’s shorts!
You could now go into your favourite rope routine, later in the show a Wolf puppet could make an appearance, or the Chicken Bucket could make a great follow-on effect.
As the Wolf is now a pet, it means you have a running gag, as the Wolf can pop up and down from your jacket pocket whenever you like.
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 12, 2006 12:01PM)
Lucky you, Phillip. I have a weekend of kids shows, ho hum....hope you enjoy the racing. You clearly failed to get the inference that Wolf's Magic provide props that in themselves help to build audience connection

HI,
Thanks, the Grand Prix was great had a tour of the Renault pits (not just a lane walkabout but right into the pits and all around the back area), met Fisichella and alonzo I watched the racing from the BRDC club house, I also introduced to Patricia Mclaren (Bruce Mclaren's widow)and we had a very pleasant lunch together.

no point in killing yourself working to hard is there ;)

I did see you inference as you put it but personaly think that if the props are well made clean and tidy that is sufficient , I personaly want to sell myself not eye candy.


"Your shows work for you, fine. But why criticise others' shows, and props that you've never seen? Why not say "I have a bare hand version of the RRR plot that works really great, for those of you who can't afford a new prop, or who would rather work the effect this way"

Hi,
I never critised anyones show ?

phillip
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 14, 2006 08:02AM)
HI Doug,
heres a suggestion/ rough idea/ basic scetch for an effect I feel would be very strong on magic, suit your like for props/ pirate theme and have the fun of RRR. make two small dagger vannish boxes (if you made3 one slightly smaller than the other you could nest them for transporting) you will also need a remote control car (with forward and reverse) a stuffed/toy parrot and a lenght of thin plastic or plywood (size dependent on size of parrot/car.

ok now strip the car down to the basic chassis and motor mount the parrot on it, lie the two dagger chests on the table (on there sides) place the ply wood cutout from one chest to the other (clip in place quick release)

ok show the parrot place it in one of the chests (you will be able to see it though the cut out fronts, let it run back and forth from box yo box as you like then notice that the kids can see though the front put the dagger chest panels in place and allow it to run they should still be able to see it though the cutouts in the linking plywood panel as it runs accross for the finally stand the chest containing the parrot upright stick sword/dagger through remove front panel to show vannish spin and dich, repeat with other empty chest leaviny the panel that was joining the boxes on the table , bow, look at panel , smile pichiny it up showing it is hiding nothing ... get your applause!

some details to iron out , you will prob want to ad story but nice routine there for you
Phillip
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Jun 14, 2006 10:58AM)
Phillip,

thank you for sharing this very very creative routine!

I used RWR yesterday and the kids didn't seem to have any trouble with visibility...they called out each time they saw the wolf appear/animate...good fun with this.

Smartini
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 15, 2006 03:28AM)
Wow, thanks Phillip! That really is a great routine, and I must take my hat off to you for your creativity. Since you've been so kind as to come up with the idea, I'm sure I'll try to make this prop. But prop making is not my forte! I can repair stuff, come up with customised solutions, but when I try to make a prop it often looks rather sad. That's why I prefer to buy props, I can twist most routines to have a pirate slant.
Still, I can picture the effect of the effect (?!) The kids would adore the idea. and I have most of the things needed to get started. I only need to make or buy suitable dagger vanish boxes. Certainly the idea of making the RRR theme a 3D effect is appealing.
Sorry this has gone off-thread, anyone compared the two props yet? Soon.....
Message: Posted by: WayneNZ (Jun 15, 2006 04:12AM)
Ive made a habbit of collecting most Run whatever Runs.
The wolf brings My total to 15 , in My collection.

As far as rating them , who cares ?
As long as You are happy with whatever version You have.
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Jun 15, 2006 05:31AM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-15 05:12, WayneNZ wrote:
Ive made a habbit of collecting most Run whatever Runs.
The wolf brings My total to 15 , in My collection.

As far as rating them , who cares ?
As long as You are happy with whatever version You have.
[/quote]
Do you ever use them all in the same show? just kidding ;)
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Jun 15, 2006 06:00AM)
HI,
I am not great at making things Either I often have ideas which way out do my abilty to actualy make the prop up!
phillip
Message: Posted by: glodmagic (Jun 15, 2006 09:58AM)
[quote]

Sorry this has gone off-thread, anyone compared the two props yet? Soon.....
[/quote]

OK Jokers
We SPECIFICALLY just purchased Run Wolf Run from another Café' member for the purpose of a Review.
It should arrive today or tomorrow. I have Kovari's Bunny arriving on loan concurrently as well.
This thread has been an interesting read.
In addition to placing this into our performance under a variety of conditions from in home birthdays to a seated museum auditorium and cultural arts center auditorium show we will videotape from the rear seating to both listen to comments and see on camera the visibility aspect (as we usually do).

If this "prop" works out naturally I will keep it in the show for a specific age range. If we feel it does not meet our criteria it will be for sale on the Café'

GLOD
Message: Posted by: glodmagic (Jun 17, 2006 10:49AM)
It has arrived
First impression: It's a beautiful prop
Second impression : It's a beautiful prop.

Review forthcoming after performance impact evaluations
Message: Posted by: kimmo (Oct 10, 2007 05:44AM)
I've been reading this thread with interest as I am looking into buying a run -- run effect for playgroup and nursery shows this christmas. I've cut out a lot of my bigger items for my main shows but for the younger age group I'm going to try and carry a few less magical 'fun' items.

I see on another thread that Rogue Clown finally got some video footage of his Run Wolf Run routine online:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xNNbMbImaU

As far as the visibility goes - The chickens in the henhouse seem to make it look like the wolf is still in there when it's supposed to be empty. Is that a problem in a show situation or is it just because I'm watching a small video screen? I must admit that I had trouble seeing the wolf going accross at times too. This might just have been down to the speed he was travelling though.

I also found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crd6yXXO6e8

I actually thought this routine was funnier and easier to follow, mainly because Billy Wiz varies the speed of the Wolf a bit more (no offence Rogue Clown, just something you might want to consider)

Does anyone have a clip of turbo bunny? I remember seeing George Kovari dem this years ago and being very impressed with the animation and mechanism.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Oct 10, 2007 02:35PM)
Thanks for resurrecting this thread, Kimmo. You note a visibility problem, seeing the Wolf in with the chickens with RC's performance, but notice how Billy Whiz deals with that. Yeah, I agree, Billy Whizz does the Biz with RWR. That's pretty much how it plays, you can make it more or less elaborate, but he's working it good! Believe it or not, after claiming I'd compare the two props side by side last year, I completely forgot, so did my pal who has Turbo Bunny. We WILL try to give you a comparison soon!...
(Turbo Bunny moves FAST, it's all done with string or elastic if memory serves...)
Message: Posted by: stempleton (Jul 27, 2019 07:27PM)
Here's an oldie but goodie... and I'd like to bring my opinions to the table...
I recently purchased a used Turbo Bunny online. After running through it a few times, I found some hangups. Failed embarrassingly during my first performance with it. A piece of crap.

Was so upset, I contacted George to purchase a new version. Meanwhile, I purchased a mint condition Wacky Wolf.

My take on both:

Yes, Turbo Bunny has a basic look, but is much more visable... if performing either at a distance or in parlor, everything is seen. Chance's version is much more vibrant... it more closely matches the look of my presentation. Parlor settings, it is my choice, HOWEVER... with my small hands, it is more difficult to make all the movements with minimum hand movement. I do feel this model is a sturdier manufactured prop... and I have worked in a metal fab shop.

Turbo Bunny... easier for me to operate, however, due to the mechanism you are not able to control the speed of the movement without appearing "jerky." But again, if you're going for the "look," it is not as "artsy" as Chance's product.

So, it depends, for me, on the distance of the audience, combined with the considerations of your overall image you would like to present. I think both products have their places... from my experience the Turbo Bunny may be more prone to mechanical issues due to the mechanism it employs.

Happy Hunting. This is an old principle that still brings an amazing reaction from the kids as well as the adult onlookers, and I will be happy to answer any questions.

Thank you, Chance and George!
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 28, 2019 10:52AM)
This thread was originally started in May 2006 (13+ years ago).

Here's another version that has come on the market since then.

"Run Run Run" by Smoky Mountain Magic:

https://www.smmagic.com/blog1/?product=run-run-run-2

Interchangeable themes are available (Rabbit, Monkey, Santa, Elephant, Wizard, Tiger, Princess are all shown on the site). You choose a main theme when you first buy the prop, and then buy replacement themes to adapt the prop.

- Donald

P.S. I don't own this prop, but I do own a Smoky Mountain Magic Pizza Box, along with a replacement theme for it ("Christmas Cookies" on the door panels, and a Gingerbread Man Cookie on the round disk... not to be confused with the Smoky Mountain Magic Cookie Box, which is a different, smaller prop). I like the idea of interchangeable pieces for the same core prop.
Message: Posted by: stempleton (Jul 28, 2019 01:55PM)
[quote]On Jul 28, 2019, Donald Dunphy wrote:
This thread was originally started in May 2006 (13+ years ago).

Here's another version that has come on the market since then.

"Run Run Run" by Smoky Mountain Magic:

https://www.smmagic.com/blog1/?product=run-run-run-2

Interchangeable themes are available (Rabbit, Monkey, Santa, Elephant, Wizard, Tiger, Princess are all shown on the site). You choose a main theme when you first buy the prop, and then buy replacement themes to adapt the prop.

- Donald

P.S. I don't own this prop, but I do own a Smoky Mountain Magic Pizza Box, along with a replacement theme for it ("Christmas Cookies" on the door panels, and a Gingerbread Man Cookie on the round disk... not to be confused with the Smoky Mountain Magic Cookie Box, which is a different, smaller prop). I like the idea of interchangeable pieces for the same core prop. [/quote]

Dan's Pizza Box is my favorite... it is my go to item when a parent has a theme for the party. I simply create the door and pizza "covers" on my inkjet and, believe it or not, use rubber cement to attach. It cleans up perfectly after the show.

As an aside, Dan has a FRAIDY FRAME that is equally versatile, but can't modify it on my own. The price, however, is worth the custom work. Just purchased my third gimmick set for use in an anti-bully show. Again, pricey but SOOOOO versatile.

I LOVE the old threads. I can search and find anything. If I can't, you, Donald, are my google. :)
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 29, 2019 10:32AM)
Yes, I've had my eye on his version of [url=https://www.smmagic.com/blog1/?product=fraidy]Fraidy[/url] for a while now. (I bought a Magic Pizza Box, The Lost Star, and StratBlocks from him back in December).

A couple more interchangeable items that Dan Wolfe (Smoky Mountain Magic) makes are [url=https://www.smmagic.com/blog1/?product=stratblocks]StratBlocks[/url] and also his version of the [url=https://www.smmagic.com/blog1/?product=wrist-chopper]Wrist Chopper.[/url]

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Al Kazam the Magic Man (Aug 3, 2019 11:46AM)
Stemplton wrote:

Turbo Bunny... easier for me to operate, however, due to the mechanism you are not able to control the speed of the movement without appearing "jerky." But again, if you're going for the "look," it is not as "artsy" as Chance's product.

Al Kazam: I've been using turbo bunny for a very long time. Mine must be over 30 years old and I've pulled it apart a few times to do running repairs to it. When you mentioned the "jerky" mechanism I get what you mean. What I do is when I start telling my story I only move it half way and leave it there for a few seconds for the kids to catch on that it's not supposed to be there. Then I quickly move the rabbit over to the left hand side for a few seconds while I keep telling my story and activate the spring lever to make his stick out. (I play this whole thing as a Look Don't See situation) After that It's just a quick slide from one side to the other and back again.
Message: Posted by: amazingvijay (Aug 8, 2019 10:57PM)
I was lucky enough to acquire a Run Wolf Run recently. Does anyone have any suggestion for a box/container, that I can buy to transport it to my shows? I was looking at some soft Gator pedal cases that may fit, but not sure if there any better options.

Vijay
Message: Posted by: stempleton (Aug 9, 2019 02:27AM)
[quote]On Aug 8, 2019, amazingvijay wrote:
I was lucky enough to acquire a Run Wolf Run recently. Does anyone have any suggestion for a box/container, that I can buy to transport it to my shows? I was looking at some soft Gator pedal cases that may fit, but not sure if there any better options.

Vijay [/quote]

Yep, the Gator GK 2110 is what I purchased and it fits perfectly.