(Close Window)
Topic: What would you do???
Message: Posted by: Daegs (May 27, 2006 07:03AM)
I have a situation I'd like your feedback on. I'd also ask that only you ethical magicians read on(meaning you think stealing from magicians is wrong), as we already know what those who are unethical will say:

Imagine you are at a convention, and a mysterious character watches you perform an amazing original piece of magic out in the lobby. After the performance, he approches you and explains he is the member of a secret sect of magicians which is invitation only and based on artistic skill. He explains that your original routine is very good and that it qualifies you to join.

You decide to join(free membership), and are given a key. This key unlocks a door to a library which is filled with *EVERY* single book and video ever published. Not only new things, but those super hard to find gambling books where only 50 were ever made, or some old out of print material that you thought would be completly un-obtainable. There is every magic work that you have lusted after but thought you could never obtain just waiting to be read and/or watched on the big-screen that is setup in the back of this "library".

Now, the question is: Do you use this library?

1: All the books were legally purchased, yet it is known that generally magical publishers do not let their work be used in rental/loaning situations, and other members of this society will also be using the library.
2: This is very secretive and very small, so this is not a large public situation.
3: Your were invited only for your great skill at magic, and only great magicians are invited to this group.

The question, is would you turn down access to this library which contains every piece of magical knowledge you've always wanted to obtain because you did not purchase the items yourself?

-daegs
ps, As a sub-question, how do you feel this relates(a private library of shared resources(of the actual books/vids) and things like online piracy?

Would you feel comfortable having 3 close magician friends over and popping in that latest DVD you purchased?

What about streaming that video to 3 close friends over the internet?

I'm just wondering where the line lays for most people posting in this forum.

Thanks!
Message: Posted by: entity (May 27, 2006 09:50AM)
Were the books/videos for this secret club purchased by the club for the use of its members? Who is bankrolling this enterprise, if not the members?

If there are specific and substantial criteria for membership and access to the club, and the materials were purchased specifically for use of the club members, then sure, I would make use of the library, should I qualify.

This does not, in my opinion, relate to online piracy, since online ANY person qualified or not, can download material not specifically purchased for their use.

Would I share my latest DVD with 3 close friends? No, unless it were a performance only DVD. I might share it with someone qualified to understand the material in order to ask them specific questions that I have that are not answered on the DVD, though.

Equally, I would not stream video of a DVD to others.

- entity
Message: Posted by: Daegs (May 27, 2006 07:58PM)
Yes the material was purchased specifically for use of the club members, but L&L(or whoever the publisher is) did not grant the club permission to let many view its source.

What you seem to be saying though, is that its ok to steal if you are a good magician that meets the criteria, but not ok to steal if you aren't?

Remember, in the eyes of the publisher, having a club that loans out a single video/book to many members is stealing too.

Regarding online piracy, what about an online club where you still had to meet the specific criteria, but all the materials were online?
Message: Posted by: JackScratch (May 28, 2006 12:41AM)
I see what you are getting at, and no, I don't think I would use them. On the other hand, I don't think anyone realy needs those kinds of resources to be a superb magician. The real question here is, what is it you think your missing out on? What do you think you need to be as good a magician as you can be. Might be a novelty, might be interesting to peruse this mythic library, but it's just not the great boon you make it sound like.
Message: Posted by: Drs_Res (May 28, 2006 02:46AM)
If I recall correctly, The Magic Castle has a members only library.

I [i]think[/i] (not a member myself) that any regular (magician) member in good standing can use it, but you cannot remove books from it, you can only use it when you visit the Castle.

EDIT:

from: http://www.magiccastle.com/about/membership.cfm

{quote}
Become a Member

Magicians and magic enthusiasts around the world have come to know The Magic Castle as the ultimate magic clubhouse and home of the Academy of Magical Arts, Inc.

The Academy of Magical Arts, Inc. was created by Milt and Bill Larsen Jr. Milt discovered a Victorian mansion built in 1908 in the hills above Hollywood, and the rest is history.

The Academy's purpose is to encourage and promote public interest in the art of magic with particular emphasis on preserving its history as an art form, entertainment medium, and hobby.

When you become a member, the Magic Castle becomes your Magic Castle. You and your guests can enjoy the unique talents of the Magic Castle's world-class performers and dine in Victorian splendor. Members can also enjoy a special Friday lunch, Sunday Brunches (a treat for the whole family), and a wide variety of members-only events. As a member, you also have the privilege of issuing guest passes to your friends and business associates so they too can visit the Castle. [b]Magician members can also take advantage of the Magic Castle's extensive library of books, videos, DVDs, and periodicals exploring the world of the magical arts, and can attend lectures presented by some of the world's foremost experts in the world of magic.[/b]
{end quote}
Message: Posted by: Daegs (May 28, 2006 03:00AM)
So here is a question, did the castle obtain permission from every publisher/author(whoever has the rights) to grant them permission to use their books as a library?
Message: Posted by: Daegs (May 28, 2006 03:57AM)
Also, to JackScratch:

I don't think anyone needs the resources to be entertaining or even a good magician.

I will say, however, that I have many original items that were created after being inspired from sources, and in many cases I use a move or subtlty that really improves my magic that I learnt from a specific hard to find source.

I think that everyone should agree that there is much to be learnt from magicians that have come before us and that having access to some of the best and brightest work would be a great help to *every* magician no matter the skill level.
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (May 28, 2006 10:20AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-27 20:58, Daegs wrote:
Remember, in the eyes of the publisher, having a club that loans out a single video/book to many members is stealing too.
[/quote]
I'm responding specifically to this one comment...

Two words: public libraries.

Three words: Video rental stores.

Four words: Second hand book stores.

Several words: Bookstores that allow browsing, and the vast majority of them do.

Just the other day I was at my local B&N, and, right there on one of the bargain tables (no less!) was a book titled something like "Secrets of the Masons." I have to wonder if the Masons get as fired up about this sort of thing as we do, and how they handle it. Any Masons out there?
Message: Posted by: JackScratch (May 28, 2006 11:28AM)
Ones interaction woth a piece of literature will vary widely with the amount of time one is able to practicly spend with that piece of literature. The kind of library that does not allow you to take books home, will only serve as a very effective advertisement for a published work. In the respect, I think it's fine, I imagine the publisher would as well. This is also a good way for a magician to gain insite into what books he/she may actualy be interested in purchasing. A little better than a review for knowing if a work fits ones style.
Message: Posted by: Daegs (May 28, 2006 10:02PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-28 11:20, George Ledo wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-05-27 20:58, Daegs wrote:
Remember, in the eyes of the publisher, having a club that loans out a single video/book to many members is stealing too.
[/quote]
I'm responding specifically to this one comment...

Two words: public libraries.

Three words: Video rental stores.

Four words: Second hand book stores.

Several words: Bookstores that allow browsing, and the vast majority of them do.

Just the other day I was at my local B&N, and, right there on one of the bargain tables (no less!) was a book titled something like "Secrets of the Masons." I have to wonder if the Masons get as fired up about this sort of thing as we do, and how they handle it. Any Masons out there?
[/quote]

And I'll respond by telling you that nearly all magic titles say "not for rental" and cannot be used in that way.

I remember there was a magic shop(I think in CA but don't quote me) that was "loaning" video's out to members for a small monthly fee, and eventually L&L or A1 or someone went after them and got them to stop it.... magic publishers are *definatly* not keen on letting any shop rent their products or having their stuff in libraries.

Finally, was that book actually a mason manual, or was it one of the *many* books published supposedly revealing their "secrets" by a 3rd party?

There are also "magic for dummies" books in book stores availible for browsing, but that is not what I'm talking about... we are talking about a collection of serious magic works where the publisher clearly does not allow rental/loaning, yet there is a private group of magicians doing sl... at least stay on topic :)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 28, 2006 10:52PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-28 04:57, Daegs wrote:...that having access to some of the best and brightest work would be a great help to *every* magician no matter the skill level.
[/quote]

In exchange for basic respect for their work and KEEPING IT SECRET.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 28, 2006 11:00PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-28 23:02, Daegs wrote:...And I'll respond by telling you that nearly all magic titles say "not for rental" and cannot be used in that way....[/quote]

Any magic sold on the open market may be used as the OWNER/purchaser sees fit with the MINOR restriction about making/selling copies. They are free to write up and sell the ideas, props, routining and anything they please.

That's the law.

Otherwise most here would not have any clue or access to the works of most who have gone before us and had their works put into print by strangers and their props duplicated by manufactures they have never met.

Think zombie, zigzag, chopcup, glorpy, linking rings, wildcard.... the list of things TAKEN into the public domain of magicdom is very long.
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (May 29, 2006 01:01AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-28 23:02, Daegs wrote:
And I'll respond by telling you that nearly all magic titles say "not for rental" and cannot be used in that way.

Finally, was that book actually a mason manual, or was it one of the *many* books published supposedly revealing their "secrets" by a 3rd party?
[/quote]
I know we're getting off your point here, but "most magic titles" do not say "not for rental." That seems to be a new development over the past x years. Back in the previous millenium, people used common sense; the vast majority of magic literature since the beginning of the 20th century, and before, was just published. Period.

Just a couple of nights ago I was looking through the Dover Publications on-line catalog: a number of "classic" titles were right there for sale to anyone who punched in their credit card number.

As far as the masonic book, I don't have a clue. But if we look closely at the many works of Gibson, Elliott, et al, which a lot of us grew up with and learned lots from, we will realize they were published for the general public.

See, it's really easy to tell when an old magic book was published for the general public and when it was published for "the trade." Books published for the general public just tell you how the trick is done; books published for magicians at least attempt to teach you how to do them. Put Hoffmann and Tarbell, or Gibson and Ganson, side by side, and you can tell the difference right away.

I have absolutely no problem with somebody nowadays publishing a work with "not for rental" on the cover page. That's their prerogative, and I for one will respect it. But if they really believe that's going to keep other people from sharing it in this day and age... well... I have a cousin in New York City who has a nice long bridge for sale.
Message: Posted by: Daegs (May 30, 2006 12:18PM)
All that aside, my issue is how is a club library different from online piracy?

If I charged a yearly fee and only allowed magicians in, could I share every book and DVD on the market with them as online downloads?
Message: Posted by: Drs_Res (May 30, 2006 12:33PM)
In the case of the Castle, I believe (as I said before) that you are only allowed to use the materials in the library while at the Castle. You are not allowed to make copies of the books or the DVDs.

There is also the fact that not all members are allowed access to the library, only the Magician members.

Now, making the DVD down-loadable, you are making unauthorized copies of the material and letting others have those copies. That is piracy.
Message: Posted by: entity (May 30, 2006 01:42PM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-27 20:58, Daegs wrote:
<Yes the material was purchased specifically for use of the club members, but L&L(or whoever the publisher is) did not grant the club permission to let many view its source.>

That's a false assumption on your part. Once the publisher sells to a buyer, they have no control over how that buyer chooses to use that particular book or video, apart from copying it. In the case of your fictitious club, the books were purchased or donated specifically to be accessed by qualified members.

<What you seem to be saying though, is that its ok to steal if you are a good magician that meets the criteria, but not ok to steal if you aren't?>

Again, a false assumption and obviously what you wanted people to say given the set-up of your questions. What I said was that if the books and videos were purchased legitimately for the purpose of being accessed by qualified club members, and there was a strict and specific qualification for membership, then I would use the library. No law is broken, and the property is not copied or electronically duplicated and offered to the masses.

<Remember, in the eyes of the publisher, having a club that loans out a single video/book to many members is stealing too.>

I may be wrong, but I don't think that your original post said anything about "Loaning Out". I believe there is a difference between having a private research facility where books and videos are avialable "in house" under specifc rules to specific people, and the concept of a rental or loaning out service. For that reason I strongly disagree with Magic Clubs having lending libraries of books and tapes.

<Regarding online piracy, what about an online club where you still had to meet the specific criteria, but all the materials were online?>

In that case you would be infringing upon copyrights by electronically duplicating or copying the original works. That is illegal, unless you have the specific permission of those who own the copyrights. If you charge money for your online club, you would again be breaking the law if offering these services. Beyond all of that, it would be vitually impossible to enforce the behaviour of those who have access to the materials, to keep them from copying them and distributing them illegally. It would also not be possible to enforce any real criteria for judging the qualifications of those who access your online site.


[/quote]<<

- entity
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Jun 2, 2006 06:37PM)
Ok entity, so what if I setup my online club to stream the video rather than making copies availible for download?

Surely by not offering copies, anyone who did capture the vid could just as easily take a camcorder into the real life library, no?
Message: Posted by: entity (Jun 3, 2006 09:12AM)
Technology the way it is, I'm sure people at home could find a way to capture your streamed video and then make their own copies to sell, rent, etc. You would have no control over that. I don't know the legal judgement on this, but to me, streaming video is still electronic duplication, since it is received by others on their own machines. Basically you are broadcasting the video in a closed-circuit way, and without permission from the creators of the videos, that would contravene the copyright laws.

While someone COULD take a camcorder into your imaginary private club, I'd suspect that your criteria for membership would make this unlikely. I'd also suspect that, although you don't specify it in your early post, there could be some sort of rules of conduct for such a club, including rules against copying or removing materials from the library. Theft or copying would be easy to detect and to prevent.

While it is difficult to enforce honest behaviour from everyone, and mistakes in judgement might sometimes be made when choosing those for membership, it is much less likely to happen in the live private club you mention, with a limited number of members, chosen face-to-face and based upon their merit and professionalism as performers, than in a faceless, international electronic online club with many members. You have no real way in the online club of judgeing the professionalism of the members. Even if you only chose people you knew for your online club, there is still the legal problem of electronic duplication in streaming the video, which, as I pointed out earlier, would still contravene the copyright laws.

IMHO.

- entity
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 3, 2006 09:20AM)
If I had such access I would revel in the knowlege and then have to get permission or copies of books before I would USE the stuff professionally or in any published work.

That's pretty much the way I treated the books at Tannen's and at various collector's homes over the years.
Message: Posted by: entity (Jun 3, 2006 09:55AM)
Jonathan: Yes, I think you're right, there. In the past, whenever I've come upon a routine or effect that I liked, seeing it in a book or on a video that I didn't own, I've always bought the book or video (and sometimes contacted the originator) if I wanted to use it in my own performances.

Like you, I revel (good word!) in the wonderful thinking of other creators, and file away great ideas for future reference, and I'm more than willing to pay for the things that will assist me in making my living.

- entity
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Jun 4, 2006 08:55PM)
I guess I am against the double standards for real life vs online actions.

Let's take this to an extreme, two situations:

A: You visit the library, pull out the DVD from its case, pop it in the DVD player and then watch it on the screen.

B: You visit the library, put the DVD into the streaming media server and then watch it on one of the libraries computers as its being streamed to the screen.


In each, the actual act of you being a club member, going to the library to watch and not copy the DVD are the same, yet entity you seem to be making one ok and the other not.

If you take it a step further, what if you don't actuall retrieve the DVD, but you call it up and a robotic arm pulls it out and pops it in the player?

How much distance is required from the DVD drive and the resulting screen to make it un-ethical? Can you do it from the other side of the building? other side of town?


I'm just not sure I agree that electronic vs. real-life usage of a kind of library is any different.


Anytime we watch a DVD, its decoded into a video stream and then sent somewhere, either the TV or the monitor or the projector or whatever on a wire.

Whether that wire is 4 feet or 10,000 feet seems a really flakey way for us to decide whats right and whats wrong....
Message: Posted by: entity (Jun 4, 2006 09:50PM)
I think you're trying to convince yourself.

I suspect you see the difference between a hand-chosen club member being selected after a face-to-face meeting, the criteria of selection being met by a display of talent and professionalism, and a faceless online sign-up.

I also suspect you can tell the difference between the electronic duplication possibilities inherent in sending a video from a central depository to numerous virtually unknown locations, and the concept of a DVD player sending the signal to the television or computer in front of a private club member under controlled conditions.

In the end, it's not me who's deciding what's right or wrong for anyone but myself. You asked me what I would do, and why. I've told you, and I feel comfortable with my reasoning, and hence, have no need to convince anyone else of my point of view.

There are laws and rules of conduct in business that decide not what is right or wrong, but what is legal and illegal or acceptable and not acceptable.

If you do something illegal or actionable, be prepared to take the heat.

- entity
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Jun 6, 2006 12:55AM)
[quote]and a faceless online sign-up.[/quote]

Actually, if you re-read my original post, the members were chosen person to person and based on their magic skill.

The distribution is done online, but its still a selective membership and done in person.

Well, as this is the forum called right or wrong, I am more concerned with the ethical issues rather than the legal.

I could easily host the club in Sweden or in Eastern Europe and be fine on the legal front, that wouldnt make it right though....
Message: Posted by: entity (Jun 6, 2006 09:19AM)
In your original post, the selection process was describing the live private club with the physical library resource. At the end you asked some questions regarding an online video-sharing concept. But thank you for now clarifying.

I'd suggest that a choice of whether or not to break the law involves your own feelings of right or wrong.

I'm not so sure that hosting your online club in Sweden would then exempt you from copyright laws world-wide, as you would probably be transmitting the video's outside of the host country.

In the end, if you're not breaking any laws, there are no "governing bodies" that ensure the ethics of Magic. We must each decide for ourselves if our actions are honorable or honest, and act accordingly. If we choose to act wrongly even though we know we are in the wrong, we must be prepared to take the heat for our actions.

Cheers,

- entity
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jun 6, 2006 01:01PM)
Daegs: What do you really think?
Message: Posted by: CJRichard (Jun 6, 2006 02:41PM)
Last week I went to my public library and borrowed Mark Wilson's Complete Course, from the shelf where several other magic books stood. I opened it up and found that the Mark Wilson book was a gift to our town library from a professional magician who lives here. (When I was a kid, they actually had an old copy of Houdini on Magic in the library, but alas it's gone now. Probably sold years ago at the ten-cent sale for discarded books.)

So do I have to get Mark Wilson's permission to perform cups and balls?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 6, 2006 02:48PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-06 15:41, CJRichard wrote:...So do I have to get Mark Wilson's permission to perform cups and balls?
[/quote]

In offering that book, Mark Wilson has invited any and all who read it to do as they please with all of the contents, tricks, ideas and discussions of history and technique.

Perhaps someone would like to tell the story about Mark Wilson and the zig-zag?
Message: Posted by: CJRichard (Jun 6, 2006 02:54PM)
Seems like you must know the story, Jonathan.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 6, 2006 03:03PM)
Look closely at the video clip of him doing the trick and you can infer the story. I heard about a train and Dante. Just word of mouth mind you. There are similar stories from long ago that would probably make for a good novel or movie.
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Jun 6, 2006 03:56PM)
I'm not sure what I really think, pete, but I do think that all forms of sharing are mostly wrong, whether its a library or online.

I do however, feel that online vs. a library are equally as bad, as opposed to the view of online being somehow worse.

I think unless the writer authorizes it, you shouldnt loan out any books nor let anyone else view them unless they've also purchased it, but perhaps that is too harsh.

Just something to think about, I'm still unsure myself...


The main question I was asking, which was assuming that sharing books/dvd's was wrong and against author/publisher's wishes, was whether the thirst for knowledge could be outweighed by the ethics against sharing magic items.

I suppose if the consensus is that sharing is A-ok then I guess there is no conflict at all...
Message: Posted by: DoctorAmazo (Aug 3, 2006 08:11PM)
By extension, your premise would also prohibit the re-sale of books/videos by the original purchaser. Once they have accessed the material therein, it would be unethical to sell the original to another.

You probably assume I'm talking about magic....but it would apply equally to ANY book, wouldn't it? You read a novel, you've used it for your entertainment. Selling, lending, renting...they all deprive the author/publisher of a potential sale.

Take to the streets, men, let's burn down all those evil public libraries!
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Aug 3, 2006 09:03PM)
Not really, because I feel performance rights are the crux of the issue.

I think you can sell a video and the performance rights associated with it.

With lending situations, obviously only the original owner has the performance rights and that is why the mass sharing is wrong.

I don't think it would apply equally... in magic we are talking about someone's creation and performance rights... with a normal book you aren't "using" the information. I suppose with an instructional type book, you should probably keep it.

However, you also have to realize that magic is a SUPER SMALL community, and that while a big time book writer with big publisher contracts and bonus's and millions of sales whether the book is any good or not, in magic the writers aren't making millions and having a book stolen a thousand times on the internet is a big deal.
Message: Posted by: DoctorAmazo (Aug 4, 2006 11:32AM)
I fail to see the distinction. A novelist makes money by writing and selling books of stories. A magician makes money writing and selling books of effects. If I re-sell you a book of either type, chances are you won't buy a new one but you have still benefitted from reading the data. The author loses out, either way. Your "Performance rights" issue just muddies the water.

And you lost me completely when you imply that stealing from the "rich" is more acceptable than stealing from the "poor". How many books they sell is completely irrelevant when discussing the ethics of theft.
Message: Posted by: elecktra (Aug 11, 2006 10:48PM)
Just in reading all of this - I just realized that they have a somewhat exclusive magic library right here in New York City. You have to make a special appointment to go in and you cannot borrow any books - you can only read them there. They have a very extensive collection of old and unusual magic books from all over the world - and from what I understand they have gotten everything legally. They also run a website where you can research for a fee. I think that they see it more as research in order to come up with new ideas, than actually stealing someones tricks. I want to check it out when I get a chance but I don't think I would actually sit there for hours looking at old books unless I was doing research. Just a thought.
Message: Posted by: Philosophry (Aug 11, 2006 11:56PM)
To answer the original question, I would be happy to make use of that library and I'd have no problem with it. If someone opened up a library full of resources in any of my interests I'd be pleased to use it. Why would anyone have a problem with this?

OK, I know people who do. All they think about is what they get - the secret, the secret! There are enough secrets revealed in Annemann, in Corinda and so on + sleight of hand knowledge to provide [i]any[/i] reasonably intellegent magician with several lifetimes worth of amazing magic.

But magicians must sell secrets, magicians must buy secrets. Secrets! Secrets!

I don't care if I ever read or discover another magical 'secret' as long as I live. But I do enjoy watching good magic, well performed magic. I really enjoy reading magician's ideas, what made them think [i]this[/i], why they do [i]that[/i]. Which is why I probably will never buy magic downloads that charge $10 for a 'secret'.

That's my position. I'd use and enjoy the library.
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Aug 13, 2006 02:00AM)
[quote]And you lost me completely when you imply that stealing from the "rich" is more acceptable than stealing from the "poor". How many books they sell is completely irrelevant when discussing the ethics of theft.[/quote]

I disagree.

It is important to realize the difference between academic ethics and "real-life" ethics.

On paper and in discussions, obviously stealing $1000 from a poor man and Bill Gates are both ethically wrong. In real life, bill gates won't even notice while the poor man couldn't pay his rent and is now homeless.

There are varying levels of personal damage here. Just like when dealing with the RIAA and music writers, it is ethically wrong to download the songs illegally, yet in reality the musicians are seeing very little of the money due to the way music companies screw over musicians.

So, in the difference between a normal writer that is going to get the publishing contract either way, and there won't even be a market to steal his work until he is published(as no one knows about it) is completely different than the situation where magicians are publishing their own stuff or working with small companies that generally only do magic stuff, and at the same time the ENTIRE COMMUNITY knows about the work usually before its even released so people are trying to steal it from the get-go. That is a big key difference. In mass-marketing situations you are trying to sell to those that have never heard of the product and probably wouldnt know where to find it if stolen. In small-communities, a much larger chunk knows about it even before its released and are eager to get it by any means at their disposal.

I don't have any figures, but from personal experiance the % rate of "stealing vs. customers" is LARGLY different from regular Novels to magic publications.

When you see a magic video of which there are only 100 copies being downloaded by HUNDREDS(and its still growing to be thousands) of people, there is a big difference imho.

Perhaps in discussing the *ethics* of theft you are right stealing is bad no matter who it is from. When discussing the real-world effects, it is much worse to take from the poor than the rich. Neither is a good option, but small markets(such as magic) are hurt A LOT more than mass-markets by piracy.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Aug 20, 2006 02:49PM)
[quote]
On 2006-06-06 16:56, Daegs wrote:
I'm not sure what I really think, pete, but I do think that all forms of sharing are mostly wrong, whether its a library or online.
[/quote]

Then it's really not a library but a collection of books sitting on a shelf serving no one any greater good. There is a big difference between a library and a collection when you look at it from a sharing or use point of view. I've heard the Magic Castle has a library for members to use, is this unethical?
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Aug 20, 2006 03:08PM)
Jake

It is still a library, just not a "lending" library.
A library is a collection of items (i.e. films, books, magazines, maps,...).

Tony
Message: Posted by: Banester (Aug 31, 2006 10:39AM)
[quote]
On 2006-05-30 13:18, Daegs wrote:
All that aside, my issue is how is a club library different from online piracy?

If I charged a yearly fee and only allowed magicians in, could I share every book and DVD on the market with them as online downloads?


[/quote]

S.A.M. also advertises that you have access to thier video library for FREE, just have to cover the shipping costs. Is this acceptable because they are a magic club and owners of the property? There Oath almost goes against what they are doing :
OATH:
If accepted as a Member, I agree to do my best to elevate the Art of Magic and to abide by the Constitution, By-laws, Code of Ethics and Ritual of the Society of American Magicians.

I shall endeavor to cooperate with the Society in the promotion of its objectives and to promote harmony among those interested in magic and to advance the ethics of the profession.

I agree not to expose any modus operandi from stage, platform, television, radio or in any manner whatsoever.

I am opposed to cheap literature wherein magical secrets are needlessly exposed, or to the sale of professional magical effects in cheap miniature form to the public.

I am opposed to needless and useless explanations of secrets to persons who are not entitled to know them or who are not interested in magic.

I am opposed to placing any legitimate performer in a predicament while that person is before an audience

Now one thing I find interesting and which I think sums up the original posters question is what S.A.M. also sates in thier oath "I am opposed to needless and useless explanations of secrets to persons who are not entitled to know them or who are not interested in magic."