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Topic: Dove to Confetti (The inventor)?
Message: Posted by: dove-boy (May 30, 2006 12:57PM)
Hi :)

I wish to add the Dove to Confetti(snowstorm load)into my Commercial Show.

However, I wish to know who is the inventor or rather the FIRST person to perform this effect....I wish to seek for permission though is not compeition act but only commercial as I belive this is the right thing to do.

Understand Dave Womach taught this in his dove lecture video, known as "Dove Explosion". I also saw Dave perform this effect at the UGM stage magic contest.

So far, I have seen 3 Top doveworkers such as Dave Womach (U.S.A), Lu Chen (Taiwan)& IBM 2000 Champion-Jay Mattioli(U.S.A) in his computer act.....did I leave any one out? :)

Not sure if this dove to confetti act is inspired by Juliana Chen's Cards to Confetti in 1997, anyway I hope to have an answer of the inventor so I can use this effect in my commercial show at ease....thanks for any help :)

Warmest Regards :)
Message: Posted by: James Adamson (May 30, 2006 08:16PM)
Tony Clark performed a Snowstorm with a Dove finale effect in his teenage years. I have some old footage of his performance. I do not know who first performed the effect. Tony also used to do Kaboka Streamers with Dove, before he changed to it to a Gloves to silk streamer with Dove production.

I assume from your post however you were looking for a Dove to Snowstorm finale not the other way around. Just checking.

James Adamson
Message: Posted by: dove-boy (May 31, 2006 01:04AM)
Hi James :)

Thanks for the post...hope you enjoy using the Vanishing Dove Carousel with smoke & fire finale :)

Any problem, please call or PM me.

The one I am talking about is where the dove toss up into the air becomes tons of confetti....seen about 3 doveworkers use it...to avoid stepping on anyone toe for 'copying' even though is for commercial show only NOT competition act...hence need to know the inventor to seek permission.....hope this helps :)

P/S: I assume is Dave Womach, cos he taught this in his Video...Dave, please avdise if this is your invention, thanks :)

Warmest Regards
Message: Posted by: kregg (May 31, 2006 06:53AM)
I saw snowstorm acts that produced a dove for a finale as early as the mid-seventies. Check in Ian Adair's Dove Encyclopedia several methods- there's not too much new under the sun.
Message: Posted by: kregg (May 31, 2006 06:54AM)
By several methods, I meant techniques in which to produce a dove.
Message: Posted by: RVH Magic (May 31, 2006 08:50AM)
Paul Philippart, from holland, did this in his show 10 years ago! (dove toss to confetti)
Message: Posted by: dove-boy (May 31, 2006 08:58AM)
Hi El rafael :)

Thanks for your reply, do you think he is the inventor? :)

BTW, did he place the dove into the tail pockets before tossing the confetti upwards...if yes, this is the correct version!

If so, I assume anyone can use it...but since Dave Womach's feature in his dove video, should he gets any credit for that...so from your advise who is the person to ask permission, thanks :)

Warmest Regards
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (May 31, 2006 10:17AM)
Generally, if you attend a lecture and buy the lecture note or lecture video. This give you rights to present the effect.

I have never known a magician telling his secrets in a lecture and then tell everyone they cannot perform it!
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Jun 2, 2006 10:21AM)
Hey Jo,

I'm impressed with this thread, and I'm sorry it took me so long to find it. I'm really busy working on a new show, and haven't had much free time. Fortunately our training session went shorter than expected today, so I have a few extra minutes.

As far as rights, it's really open to use. I came up with it about 10 years ago, when I was playing around with the idea of dove to fire (although I decided it was too dangerous for the bird, and decided not to do it). Although I had never seen anyone do it at the time, I have seen people do it since then. But I'm not aware of that many people that are doing it.

I certainly don't feel like I would be considered the "inventor" as it seemed logical to me to just use the snow storm. I'm sure it has been done prior to me, but as far as I have been able to find, I'm unaware.

Hope this helps.

Message: Posted by: magic mike (Jun 2, 2006 03:28PM)
Hello Dove Boy,

General Grant of Boston invented DOVE TO SILK over 50 years ago. He won 1st prize for originality at the 1954 or 1955 SAM CONV. in Bridgeport Ct. I happen to know him personally. Channinng Pollock started it doing shortly after that, but tossed it in the T.P. instead of placing it there. Tossing is less sure in that it causes one to miss the T.P. occasionally.

The effect you described is the same principle. Others do Dove to Flower or Dove to Cane or Dove to other some object, but the idea is the same.
Message: Posted by: dove-boy (Jun 3, 2006 08:34AM)
Hi Dave :)

Thanks for your reply, deeply appreciate....great to hear that this effect is open to use :)

Hi Mike :)

Yup, General Grant invented the one-handed dove vanish...this is with one hand...The late Channing Pollock did it with 2 hands....no comments about tossing...but the dove should be 'place' ...the quickest & nicest is done by Lance :)

As for Dove to Flower is by George Saterial & Dove to cane by Shimada in his new bird act... some magician also make use of the side table instead of tail to ditch...both are nice...I prefer the tail.

Thanks for all the replies....deeply apprecited! :)

Warmest Regards
dove-boy :)
Message: Posted by: magic mike (Jun 3, 2006 01:35PM)
Hi Dove Boy,

You sure are informed about dove magic. I'm learning a lot from you.
Where do you pickup all your knowledge?

George Saterial does a beautiful dove act. His Dove to Flower ( corsage(sp)) is very nice indeed. BTW, George is from the Boston area as I am. So is General Grant, a legend in dove magic and David Oliver, another excellent dove worker who also does a great job with ZOMBIE, with a very different ending. I stay in contact with all of the above mentioned magicians and have learned a lot from each of these very talented guys.

You mentioned that Shimada is doing a doing a new bird act, is it very different from his previous one?

As a side note, I was working on doing a version of "Dove to Silk" myself only to have the dove change to a pair of white gloves. The gloves have snaps at the wrists and can be held together this way. One could also fill the gloves with confetti and enhance the effect in somewhat the way that you mentioned.

Lastly,I hope you don't mind my mentioning that it is Johnny Thompson who use both hands to vanish the dove in the "Dove to Silk" effect. His toss/placing is done between his legs. The late and great Channing Pollock did it one handed. Sorry for being so picky, it is not meant to be critical of you. I think you will agree that it is only in the interest of the history of Dove Magic that I decided to bring it at all.

All the best,
Michael John
Message: Posted by: dove-boy (Jun 3, 2006 01:55PM)
Hi Mike :)

Nice to discuss dove magic wih you...me still learning :)

Shimada is Not doing a new bird act...but add a few new stuffs into his act like the dove splits, dove to cane...etc...the rest of the act is pretty much the same.

I have e-mail to George Saterial before asking permission to use a picture, General Grant- bough many many stuffs from him,...David Oliver-only saw his promo picture.....very nices---with many doves around him & his head.....hope to have a chance to see his act one day :)

Opps, my mistake...though I saw Channing did it with 2 hands...perhaps the one hand is like what General Grant, Tom Shawner(s.p) & Dan Sperry used to do.....Victor Cephas also shown this on his dove video...the silk & dove all hide in one hand.....but I though Channing hold the silk in one hand & dove on the other...perhaps this is what I meant 2 hands...correct me if I am wrong.

Johnny Thompson is an excellent performer & teacher.........he has a great Comedy & Bird act...very smooth..flawlessly done. I still remember once I saw the act Live, where after the dove vanish into tail...but for some reason, the 'borrow' dove decided to jump out of the tail....instead of being shock....Johnny is very cool,professional & immediately reply: 'What does the dove comes from'...... a real pro's reply.....hope to have a chance to learn from this master.

Hope to have a chance to meet u, you coming to any convention in SAM or IBM in July?

Have a great day! :)
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 3, 2006 02:14PM)
Michael, unfortunately you are incorrect. Channing Pollock used both hands to vanish his dove. Check out the video European nights and you'll see. Doves to gloves is already being done. I can't remember who does it but it will come to me. I remember the opening routine is to vanish the gloves and turning them into a dove (sleeve toss) and ending the routine by vanishing the dove turning it back into the gloves via the tail vanish.

Most magicians do the dove to silk by holding the dove with one hand while the other holds the silk, gloves, flower etc. General Grant holds the load and dove with one hand. The General is a good man to be friends with. As you, he and I are friends as well and he has helped me many times with my act.

Shimada is unique in that he vanishes two doves at the same time turning them into 2 silks.
Message: Posted by: dove-boy (Jun 3, 2006 02:39PM)
The gloves to dove (Sleeve) & from dove back to 2 gloves is by James Dimmare. But no confetti....as Mike is using is with confetti.

But I prefer Lance's ways of rolling the gloves into ball, before tossing out the bird..

Shimada's 2 doves vanish is not easy to accomplish, think One need a big hand & wide fingers...I can't do it.... :(

I am very curious about a question, one of the greatest doveworker Rick Thomas does a very very smooth dove act, every single move is plain smooth.......but strangly I don't know why he does the dove toss with his body straight...somehow(my personal view) ...it seem a little obvious...or maybe to lay audience is ok...hmm ?
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 3, 2006 05:27PM)
Yes, the confetti is an addition but not that much different. You can add the confetti to the silk or any other prop that you are going to use. Shimada is not a very large person. It isn't necessary to have large hands to do the double dove vanish. It isn't difficult to hold two birds side by side for a few seconds.

As to why Rick Thomas stands straight up when doing the dove toss, I'm sure only he knows for sure. I think it may have something to do with the fact that he is so tall, it may not look good for him to bend down like other magicians. Of course that's just my opinion. We have to remember that the lay audience is pretty smart now. I don't there are too many people that don't think the bird comes from the sleeve when doing this effect. It's the appearance of the bird not where it comes from that makes the lay audience say "ooooh, wow".
Message: Posted by: magic mike (Jun 4, 2006 08:00AM)
Hello Dave and Joe Yu,

It really is a great pleasure chatting with people like you that know so much about Dove Magic using body loads.

Dave, I guess I wasn't very clear about the ONE HANDED DOVE VANISH vs. a TWO HANDED DOVE VANISH. It appears that we are talking about 3 (slightly) different methods.

1. Gen. Grant's method, where bird and silk are held in same hand before vanish.

2. Channing Pollock's, where the bird is held in one hand and silk in other before vanish is executed.

3. Johnny Thompson's where both hands hold bird with hidden silk in one hand before vanish. This method of Johnny's is done between the legs as I'm sure you know.

Incidentally, Shimada has mentioned on his video on Dove Magic, that in practice, he has done the vanish with 3 doves. Also, Jason Byrne does a "Dove to Silk" effect using 2 birds. Again, I am sure you both are aware of this. I'm only mentioning it for others that might not know.

Joe and Dave, I hope I did not give the impression that I was trying to claim credit for the "Doves to Gloves" vanish ala James Dimmare, with or without confetti in the gloves. The only small idea, and perhaps not original, was to have the gloves snapped together by utilizing the snaps on the wrist part of the glove. This, I would hope, might also give the added effect that the fingers of the gloves appeared to be the wings of the dove while still in the air.

Dave, you are absolutely correct in stating that there is very little if nothing new in Dove Magic. The only thing that one can hope to do to distinguish ones self from the rest, is to do ones act with such grace and polish so as to stand out from the rest. Channing has proved this (over 50 years ago) to be very true and, in his case, he also did it first.

Best regards,
Michael John
Message: Posted by: kregg (Jun 4, 2006 03:11PM)
I'm quite certain Cantu was the first of what we consider the modern dove worker for it was his dove act that inspired Channing Pollock's dove act.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 4, 2006 04:25PM)
Kregg, you are correct. Cantu was the inspiration and Channing was the result.
Message: Posted by: kregg (Jun 4, 2006 05:54PM)
The Great Channing Pollock was the total package, made for TV and a class act in every way.
Message: Posted by: magic mike (Jun 5, 2006 01:19PM)
Dave you are correct again, Cantu was before Pollock in working with doves, but did not wear the traditional white tie and tails that Channing wore. Cantu's loads, from what I understand, were mostly concealed in or behind the Serape which is part of the Mexican costume he wore. Some loads were also hidden behind props such as a chair. BTW, has anyone out there ever seen Cantu perform, either in person or on film, if so could you breifly describe his act.
Message: Posted by: sperris (Jun 5, 2006 08:26PM)
On one of Franz Harary's latest TV series specials called MAGIC PLANET you can see a clip of another young dove worker from Korea -no it's not UnGoel Lee (spe?)- but this young performer does the dove to confetti. I did a similar effect for awhile back in like 1997 and 1998 and competed at IBM and performed it at abbott's the first year I performed there. Pretty much just did the same thing dove to a confetti load ala tail dump. Then reached into the confette and plucked one of them out of the air, lit it (flash paper) and it turned into a silk which lead to the next sequence.

Its just really messy, as with any other confetti type thing.

I also have a video of a performer doing the dove vanish with a finger flash shooter thing. I'm not sure exactly what they're called but its the one that actually shoots a ball of flash paper out of your hand. So this guy basically does a tail vanish dove to flash of fire thing with one of those gimmicks. It looked like the exact same one I think is made by Lematrix because he missed the ditch and it fell on the floor and the camera guy followed it and I got a pretty good look at it.
Message: Posted by: thelestat (Oct 6, 2006 02:18PM)
Dove to Confetti was done by Carl Germain and is in his book he had a different technique and pocket than Channing....:)

[quote]On 2006-06-05 21:26, sperris wrote:

I also have a video of a performer doing the dove vanish with a finger flash shooter thing. [/quote]

Dirk Athur from his pigeon act which he bought from Kenny Whittiker (Impalement creator) Keeny Did this eons ago....
Message: Posted by: hugmagic (Oct 7, 2006 08:45PM)
James, you are correct that Karl Germain did the dove from Confetti however it was a much different appearance as it was a variation of the silks and soup plates not a barehanded. method.

As we all know there is nothing really new under the sun, one just has to dig deep enough to find someone else who did it before. But I do applaud Joe in trying to take the high road. It is far to easy to copy a style of presentation that to develop your own.

James you have your own style and I have watched it refine over the years since the early days at Abbott's.

Hope all is well.
BTW, congradulations on your marriage.

Message: Posted by: g0thike (Oct 10, 2006 01:05AM)
The first time I saw Dove To Confetti in print is the "Ultimate Snowstorm" packet, its a fan plus some directions and snowstorm.

Hollywood Magic sells them, call them up it should have the copyright date.

Message: Posted by: luchen (Nov 5, 2006 01:20PM)
When I made the dove act in 1996,I wanted to do "doves to MANY white spring flowers" effect.
But I couldn`t find that many white spring flowers,so I used confetti to replace flowers after I saw Juliana Chen`s act.
But in fact,I don`t really think it`s a good effect,because it looks like dove "explosed"...
Message: Posted by: thelestat (Jan 16, 2007 12:20PM)
On 2006-10-07 21:45, hugmagic wrote:
James you have your own style and I have watched it refine over the years since the early days at Abbott's.
Hope all is well.
BTW, congradulations on your marriage.

Thanks for the kind words. DIMMARE
Message: Posted by: Spellbinder (Jan 16, 2007 04:07PM)
On 2006-11-05 14:20, luchen wrote:
When I made the dove act in 1996,I wanted to do "doves to MANY white spring flowers" effect.
But I couldn`t find that many white spring flowers,so I used confetti to replace flowers after I saw Juliana Chen`s act.
But in fact,I don`t really think it`s a good effect,because it looks like dove "explosed"...

Now that you have more experience with the effect, try it with a small bouquet of white silk flowers from a Dollar Store or Craft Store, rather than spring flowers. They can compress quite nicely and spring fully open, looking much more realistic than spring flowers. You might have to glue on the flower heads, but other than that, there are few drawbacks.