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Topic: offensive behavior
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 9, 2002 01:42PM)
hum...Well I worked this weekend and offended someone. I guess it's the Gazzo in me. I had a conversation with Gazzo last summer about how similar we are. I use, and have been using, a bunch of bits that he uses. No, I didn't steal them from him, they are classic bits that have been around for a million years. Now here's the bit I used...the KISS thing...you know, "Hey lady, how about a kiss on my cheek?" And when she leans over you turn your head and get her on the lips. I have done this bit 1000's of times and the husband or boyfriend laughs harder than anyone. Not this time. This guy went nuts. Complained to the management of the facilty I was working. They called me today to tell me I was no longer welcome. 1000 shows at this place and they get one complaint and I'm gone. So what do you guys think of this? How far can you go? Some say there are no rules. Well, there are. I personally don't think this is offensive. Eyes of the beholder, I guess, but I hate to lose this facilty.

koz
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Dec 9, 2002 01:48PM)
I mean no offense to you, but if you did this to my wife, I'd smash your head with a brick :) It all comes down to the person, I am jealous when men get too fresh with my wife. A lot of people are not. But that does stink that you got fired. It seems like you had a good rep there. Sorry for this misfortune. If a female magician did this to me, my wife would probably brick her head too!

Good luck in the future!

Nathan Pain

By the way, I think the kiss move is hilarious, as long as it isn't my wife on the other end! I guess that makes me somewhat of a hypocrite, but I wouldn't have the ***** to even try that!
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 9, 2002 02:20PM)
The kiss thing works everytime. But think about it, how does the woman feel? And when it happens, it might be different for you. It's amazing. The guys laugh the hardest...the husbands, the girlfriends...

koz
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 9, 2002 03:39PM)
I would think that if you worked for an employer, that proper family traditional values, are the standard that you must uphold.

He was right to fire you, even on one complaint, as above. I would have too.

At work I have a reputation as "The Terminator" and people say that I am heartless and show no remorse.

This is the farthest thing from the truth.
I do feel badly for people that lose their jobs. I secretly hope they find another the next day.

There is a huge difference between being employed and being self employed. I do not wish to get rid of anyone, but the standards of my company are the measuring stick that everyone is judged by. In some states kissing the woman against her will is a crime called sexual assault.

BTW: Sorry you lost your job.

You are mistaken in the use of the bit. People laugh for many reasons and one is to cover up anxiety in a stressful situation.

Comedy that demeans people, is not comedy, it's insecurity and immaturity.

Duane Laflin has a book on clean comedy, that is suitable for any venue (even Church venues).
Message: Posted by: BroDavid (Dec 9, 2002 03:43PM)
I guess if you stopped short of actual physical lip to lip contact, and acted like it surprised you too, or as if you did do it, but everyone knew you didn't, you might get away with it.

But in this day of social diseases, etc, (practical stance), sexual harrassment (prudish stance) and people who are walking around angry and on the far edge of sanity, (paranoid stance), stopping short - might keep you working and ultimately save you a broken nose.

My style is a bit more distant than yours and Gazzo's, so I never get that close to a woman who isn't my wife or my sister.

You are the one who has to ask himself, what is this worth to me? Is it worth another job in the future? Or a big guy pummeling you into a spot on the street.

One of the hardest things in perfroming is reading the audience. Was there any "tell" with this guy that in retrospect, you could say, "I will watch for that in the future"?

Tough thing when it it is a part of who you are (performance wise) and you can't use it. Hope you get the job back with a humble explanation.

Does this mean that we will see a kinder gentler Kozmo on the street, now? (Just kidding, Koz, we love you the way you are! Most of the time.........)

Good Luck!

BroDavid
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Dec 9, 2002 04:00PM)
[quote]
On 2002-12-09 14:48, nathanpain wrote:
I mean no offense to you, but if you did this to my wife, I'd smash your head with a brick :) It all comes down to the person, I am jealous when men get too fresh with my wife, a lot of people are not.[/quote]

Nathan, just looking at the look on your face in that picture a guy would have to be OFF HIS FLIPPIN' ROCKER to try that bit with YOUR wife. **SHUDDER** :)

Koz? You win some, you lose some. Lucky performs that bit in his show and I've never seen it get a bad reaction.

It's all about taking chances. Now all of us that do that bit should study Nathan's picture and remember the man carries a brick and his name is MISTER Pain.

:wow:

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Dec 9, 2002 04:57PM)
In this day and age, I think that "bit" is asking for trouble. It's obvious to anyone who's been in any type of "professional" workplace enviornment. Why risk offending someone? You've probably gots tons of other gags that don't. And by the way, IMHO the performer should be the butt (and victim) of the jokes, not the people he is there to entertain.
Jim
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 9, 2002 05:00PM)
Danny, I take a ton of chances. That's the lamest of things I do. Man, 1000's of times. Also, I wasn't fired. They weren't paying me. They just prefer to not let me work there again. :) They have several street guys at this venue. None draw a crowd like I do...NONE. I get big crowds and entertain 1000's while the others are lucky to have $10 in the hat when they are done.
Gazzo gets the biggest hats. He works for money. I work for money. I will not change my show cause some youngster...Would Gazzo?. No...20 years old is offended. Jealous because I kissed his girlfriend during my show. The bit works. I will find places that understand that 1 person complaining is not worth losing a good street performer. Ya know, I move on so fast afterwards. Don't see it, usually the husband is the one who laughs the loudest. I used to play it straight. Look at the magic, clean little jokes. Hats were small. Then I started to entertain them using the real me, a little edgy, and my hats have tripled. So it's a risk. I will end up being welcomed back until the next one complains then I will be gone forever. Too bad...everyone loses.

koz
Message: Posted by: Adam V (Dec 9, 2002 05:57PM)
Each to their own I suppose. I must admit I'm surprised that this is the first time anybody's complained. Actually, maybe I'm not. If you did that to my girlfriend I'd be furious but I probably wouldn't go as far as to complain.

Just remember, if one guy actually complained to management there were probably one hundred guys who got really angry but aren't the type of people to complain like that.
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Dec 9, 2002 05:58PM)
[quote]
On 2002-12-09 17:00, Danny Hustle wrote:

Nathan, just looking at the look on your face in that picture a guy would have to be OFF HIS FLIPPIN' ROCKER to try that bit with YOUR wife. **SHUDDER** :)

It's all about taking chances. Now all of us that do that bit should study Nathan's picture and remember the man carries a brick and his name is MISTER Pain.

Best,

Dan-
[/quote]
Danny, thanks for the compliment. I, of course, am actually a big sissy. If you look at my picture again, you will see those are my bedroom eyes, big boy. Just kidding, seriously, I love the ladies, I mean my wife....ow ow ow quit hitting me honey!

Nathan Pain
Message: Posted by: Payne (Dec 9, 2002 06:13PM)
At a local con a magician did the old "kissing bit" and you could feel the entire room bristle. The nerdy magician, completely oblivious to the reaction of the room, thought it was a funny bit, which it probably was for whoever he stole it from. It just wasn't him.
It sounds like it is a gag that works for you, though, and this was just a one time thing, so don't sweat it. These things happen.
I was doing some work for a Church sponsored Mediaeval Faire, a gig I had worked before with no problems, but this time after each performance I had a concerned mother come up to me and question my choice of material and patter. I just told them that this is what I do and that I was sorry they didn't enjoy it and that I can't make everyone happy. These also were the first complaints I had ever gotten about my show in the twenty years I have been doing it.
It happens, so just roll with it, unless it happens all the time, then try to fix it.
If you were *****ing everyone off not only would your hats be light but you wouldn't have an audience.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Dec 9, 2002 07:35PM)
ted,

Next time you could ask the husband's permission if you could get a kiss on the cheek.

His response, even if it is, "yes," may very well telegraph what his response WILL BE when you get your freebie on the lips.

I believe I would always direct my attention directly at the husband afterwards and apologize profusely about how you just could not help yourself. Give him your card, tell him he gets a discount if he ever wants a show. Maybe in an over-the-top kind of way....etc.

These are just ideas, but getting on the husband's good side immediately afterwards in a big way can't hurt.

Perhaps Nathan Pain up there can give feedback to this idea. Would he still be flinging bricks or it would tend to tone it down a bit (and maybe instead he'll just run away with your Gazzo Cups and your Evan's monkey fists).
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Dec 9, 2002 07:40PM)
I would still brick him, even for asking. But like I said everyone is different. I don't like other men touching my wife AT ALL!

But that's just me.

Nathan Pain
Message: Posted by: Vaclav (Dec 9, 2002 09:42PM)
Hi tedb.
A little story of my own:
About a year ago I was working at this restaurant and went on to entertain a table with this lady and her 2 kids. As I'm in middle the first routine the husband comes. I introduced my self and continue with the show.
They all were having a good time (especially the kids) so at the end I did the watch steal
with the lady. Then I gave them my business card, wished them good evening, and started to leave. Then I stopped like I forgot something and returned the watch, apologizing that this happened. The kids and the lady love it, but the husband returned my business card. At that time I didn't think much of it.
But later on, the daughter of the owner which works at the front desk asked me if we could talk.
What happened? The guy complained that I was flirting with his wife. I could not be more surprised, for I would never do such a thing. First, I'm always polite to the customers in restaurants and second, how stupid I would have to be to do that.
I was smiling at her but so I did at him and the kids.
Anyway, the next day I found a message on my voice mail from the owner's wife (who is actually running the restaurant since he is busy with their new establishment) saying that there was a complaint and I'm no longer welcome 'cause they can not have these things happening.
Mind you that I have been working there for 3 years and never have had a single complaint.
The saddest thing is that the owner is a magician himself and on many of occasions he was part (and helping me) of that particular routine.
And 'till this day I still do not know what really happened. I do the watch steal all the time and it never happened before or after.
So I guess, perhaps the only way not to offend someone is not to perform at all. :bg:

By the way, I do like the kiss gag (did it few times myself with no problem) but always look for people with some sense of humor.
:bigdance:

I also agree with Payne that you should have the right personality or character to do any (risque stuff) and not to upset the audience.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 9, 2002 09:58PM)
Guys, trust me, this works for me. I have that personality. fstarsinic, I like your idea of saying, "Oh my, I'm sorry sir. I just couldn't help myself." What I do is, I look at the husband right away with a surprised look and say, "Hey man, take it easy. It's just a show. I have a stick. I'm from NY." And then I move on to the next thing.

vaclav, same thing happened to me. 2 years ago I was working in this restaurant, hot honey at this table. She was on me big time right in front of her husband. He was a dorky lookin' dude but had a lot of cash. After I left, with his wife smiling at me and winking, he went to the owner and complained that I was after his wife. MAN!!! I did nothing but the guy couldn't deal with it. She was high maintenance and he couldn't deal. Pays to marry a fat woman. :)
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Dec 10, 2002 08:39AM)
[quote]
On 2002-12-09 22:42, Vaclav wrote:
The guy complained that I was flirting with his wife. [/quote]
You know, this is an interesting thing. I don't think you were flirting but, some guys are really weird about this. I grew up in a neighborhood full of them. For this reason, and this is something I've never really thought of until just now, I am the anti-flirt.

What I mean by this is, when I perform for a couple, I play to the guy. I might do the trick to the woman but my sole purpose is to make that guy look like a hero to his girl. I build him up and downplay myself. The woman still gives the huge reaction but I always at least get a smile out of the guy. Even if he is trying to play it cool and look unimpressed.

Another reason I think I do this is I work for tips almost exclusively. If I make this guy look like the greastest thing since beer to his girl he is going to tip me. If it is a girl he is trying to impress he is going to tip me big.

I also NEVER say how beautiful the woman is even if she is a movie star. I may tell the woman her husband looks like a movie star though and how did SHE get so lucky. At this point she often says HE is the lucky one. He may even agree but I am not the one who puts it out on the table, they do.

Where I am from, a lot of guys are like our friend Mr. Paine, great guys, but don't mess with their girls! I respect that and treat every guy as if he were Mr. Paine. It works for me. Also, I am a big guy and talk with a Boston accent. If I am dealing with people from out of town it can appear as if I think I'm a tough guy if I play my part wrong.

Luckily, I have a friendly face and if I downplay myself people forgive the size and the accent.

It really is an interesting dynamic the way we have to work with people. I never really given it much thought before. It just worked and I never questioned it.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Peter Marucci (Dec 10, 2002 10:28AM)
Sorry, tedb, but I think you are dead wrong on this one!
I agree with nathanpain; in fact, you are very lucky that the husband didn't flatten you.
And you are very, VERY lucky to have got away with this if you have done it thousands of times, as you say.

Common sense should tell anyone not to do this; but, then, common sense is very uncommon.

You, no doubt, will continue to do this elsewhere, thinking it is uproariously funny.
That's too bad.
Not only because it isn't, but -- more importantly -- you are dragging magic down and giving other performers a bad name for even admitting that they are in the same business.

You may not see a problem -- but many others obviously do!

(BTW, there's a name for touching people without their permission: It's common assault and it's called a felony!)
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Dec 10, 2002 10:43AM)
Wow, I don't think this is ALWAYS a bad bit. I have a friend that does it and he ALWAYS gets away with it. But, He NEVER does it to the woman from a couple though. He only does it to either a single girl or a couple of girls together. He is also one of the most unthreataning, Gregarious, mild mannered, pleasant, and talented, performers I know.

When he does it, it looks like the girl kissed him and not that he stole the kiss. He turns as if to say something just as she is about to kiss him. When she kisses him, he looks shocked, sputters, blushes, and kicks the ground. It is SO funny the girl often kisses him again!

When he collects his hat he often gets MORE KISSES FROM OTHER GIRLS!

He's a great guy, but I hate him! :)

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Pokie-Poke (Dec 10, 2002 02:33PM)
Wow.
WOW. I can't beleive this much of a stink over a joke that is older than any two people on this bord!!
A vaudeville bit that made it into the movies.

Fired on one complant is unreasonable. Go back to the restaurant and complain that the food was not cooked right. Do they fire the cook? If not, sue them, as improper cooking can make you sick and is a danger. Flirting is not and if one complant is all it takes to fire someone, then most waitstaff would be in trouble!

I like the kiss bit, done right it is very funny! It does not fit in my act right now as I do a bit of flirting, and I feel that would push it too far.
I also agree with Danny, the meek character, "Oops, I didn't... um a .. :blush: "
works for this bit. I was working on a Harold Lloyd type character, and for this it will work.
Whenever you flirt with someone, watch the reactions of the male counterparts for clues as to where to go with it. You are going to embarrass one of them. If it is her, the guy will probably be cool with it. (Guys are dogs.) However, if she is cool with it, the joke is then on him, do you think he can take a joke? If not, jump ship quick. Turn it around so the pie is in your face, and save the funny stuff for your next show.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 10, 2002 04:11PM)
lol. You have got to be kidding me. I make magicians look bad because I do this bit? That's such crap. I have other words to describe that, but I won't, because they won't let me back on. That's one of the reasons why I don't lecture and teach, because magicians have this holier than thou attitude. Man! You should see Gazzo. "Hey lady, speak up. You're not buying condoms." And in case you haven't noticed, he's the most successful street magician on the planet. Makes more money than all of us. More than Cellini, more than anyone.

Eddie Murphy shouldn't make movies, he makes actors look bad!!! You have got to be kidding me. This bit has been around for a million years. The reason why you think it's so bad is because you don't have the twins to try it. But it works and it has for 100 years. And it's amazing, the guys whose wives I kiss, they give me the MOST money. They laugh until they cry. You might not think it's funny, but I do and so have many for 100 years. You have the right to your opinion, but I have to tell you, don't run down to see my show because I'm gonna give all the magicians a bad name.

Here's another subject. Danny said he is the anti-flirt. You should be, but watch your audience as you build it. The kids, they are watching. How does he get that coin to go from one hand to the other? The dad, he's watching too. But mom? Nope, mom is looking at the next thing to go and see. Let's move on fellas. So I attack the wife. I get her involoved so she doesn't want to move on. I do the magic in her hand. Wow! How'd he do that? And when that's done, no one is going anywhere because she wants to stay.

Also, someone said something about a restaurant. I did not do this in a restaurant. I did it on the streets at a facilty that has street performers.

This is very interesting stuff and I'm glad I posted this. I appreciate all of your opinions even if they are different than mine. I have been thinking about not doing this bit anymore but have not yet decided on what I want to replace it with. I'm sure that some have walked away less than happy but most walk away going, "WOW!!! That guy was good," because I am And I have to tell you, I don't care if I give you a bad name. I don't. I make a living doing this and have for years. I try to perform magic in a pure form...no tricky cards, no tricky coins...pure. And I try to do it in an artistic way. I used to do nothing but magic, but some would walk away and listen, they walk away from everyone. They walk away from Cellini...I have seen it first hand...but, when I started adding comedy--comedy that fits my personality--they started to stay longer and the hats got bigger. And Gazzo, no one walks away from that guy. His hats are huge on slow days. He can build a crowd when no one is there. But you would come and judge him and say, he sucks. My oh my, Gazzo gives all magicians a bad name.

koz
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 10, 2002 04:21PM)
It is very interesting, the topic I mean. And to go from ok a 1000 times to a brick in the head, man what a wide range of opinions. But like it or not, this is the place to discuss these sorts of issues.

Very interesting, please continue...
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 10, 2002 04:37PM)
Yea, I'm liking it too.

I talked to Cellini about this. He would never use this bit because it doesn't fit him but he could not believe that someone reacted like that. It's as old as dirt, this one.

So I do this bit and at the end I call this little girl a golddigger when the little boys give her the money. Gazzo does the bit. Never fails to get a laugh. Is that offensive?
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Dec 10, 2002 04:40PM)
Yeah he won't be typing so well after he takes that first brick to the head :)
... ... ... ... ... I used to overuse those too, but I made them vanish!

Nathan Pain
Message: Posted by: BroDavid (Dec 10, 2002 05:53PM)
Yes Koz, not many people could get away with as Gazzo does. So, done by most people, it probably would be somewhat offensive.

Personally, I love it when Gazzo gets the little boys to give the little girl the money that he gave them each earlier, and then looks at them, and says to the boys who now, after giving up the money, have sad looks on their faces, "Get used to it!" and then says to her; "Gold digger..."

It is clear to everyone in the audience what is going on and they all seem to get a kick out of it.

I wouldn't do that bit myself. But the way Gazzo works it, it was pretty funny!

BroDavid
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Dec 10, 2002 06:20PM)
I don't think the point of this discussion is what is offensive. The point is he got let go from a chance to perform at a venue regularly because he used a bit in which he "accidentally" kisses a man's significant other. He says this works for him but if it gets him fired, it obviously doesn't always work. It's like if you get busted doing a move, you would re-evaluate your performance of that move. It is unfortunate that the person could not take a joke, but everyone is different. Like me, I would have been royally ******! It is all a matter of preference, I prefer not to have people "accidentally" kiss my wife. Maybe some guys enjoy this. Maybe some guys don't have enough ***** to tell you to cut it out, I dunno. Some things Penn and Teller do are offensive, but it works for them. It wouldn't work for everyone. That is why there is only one Penn & Teller! I wouldn't really hit him with a brick, but the thought would cross my mind. Stranger things have happened!

Nathan Pain

P.S. It is not a matter of what is offensive to me, obviously, because I am a huge fan of some of the most filthiest stand-up comedy any of you will ever have the chance to hear. It is just a matter of smooching people's ladies only!
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 10, 2002 07:13PM)
So where are we at so far? What are the facts?

1. Kozmo got bumped from his spot.
2. He wasn't drawing a check from the owner.
3. He recognizes the offensiveness of the bit, and is considering cutting it. (If he cuts it and goes back to the owner explaining this, possibly the spot opens up?)

What are the pros:
1. The bit gets a good tip.
2. A percentage of people think it's funny.

What are the cons:
1. Could lose your job/spot over a complaint.
2. Possible contraction of disease.
3. Possible arrest and jail time.
4. Jealous husband/lover uses knife, gun, fist, or brick to end your life.

It's not adding up for me, but keep going, I'm still listening.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 10, 2002 07:30PM)
Well, first of all, it's not illegal 'cause she's kissing me, remember. And no, I can't get the gig back which is another issue. The lady that runs the thing hasn't seen my show so she really doesn't understand what happened. What she did say was, "The other guy's here don't get bad comments and it's not worth the hassle to deal with someone that might." It's likely that if she saw the bit she would like it and think it's funny also. This was a short guy who complained who was ***** cause his girlfriend kind of laughed. It wasn't the girl that was upset. Listen, no one reacts to this this way...ever..until now. I didn't start doing this last week you know. I have thought of getting rid of the bit 'cause I really don't like doin' it all that much. The reason why the other performers don't get bad comments is because no one watches them. They can't draw a crowd because they aren't very good. I like them, but they aren't good. It's easy to please everyone who's watching you if no one is watching you? Right? I may get rid of the bit...may...as soon as I figure out why they aren't complaining about the things that I do that really are offensive. :)

koz
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Dec 10, 2002 08:32PM)
[quote]
On 2002-12-10 17:11, tedb wrote:
heres another subject....danny said he is the anti flirt...you should be...but ...watch your audience as you build it...the kids...they are watching...how does he get that coin to go from one hand to the other....the dad...hes watching too...but mom...nope, mom is looking at the next thing to go and see...lets move on fellas...so i attack the wife...i get her involoved so she doesn't want to move on...i do the magic in her hand....WoW!...how'd he do that...and when thats done....no one is going anywhere because she wants to stay...


[/quote]

Hi Koz,

I think you might have misunderstood my post. I almost always do the trick to the woman but I 'play' to the ego of the husband/boyfriend. When I am doing the trick to his girl, I am joking but instead of joking with her about her or her and me, I joke with her in a way that builds HIM up.

The best reactions almost always come from the woman but the cash almost always comes from the guy. I got my first twenty dollar drop by playing my comedy this way.

To each his own to be sure and what ever gets the frog skins in the hat for us as individuals is what we should all try to be doing.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 10, 2002 09:50PM)
I didn't misunderstand, Danny. Seems like we almost always see eye to eye. I play it up big time before the kiss. Is there anything in my hands? Rub them, make sure. They do. I look at the man, give him a thumbs up and then say to the woman, "Do it again. How about in my pocket? Come on baby, it's my birthday. Ok. Well then, how about a kiss on the cheek."

koz
Message: Posted by: Vaclav (Dec 10, 2002 11:53PM)
nathanpain

A little question.
At almost all of my shows I'm doing this walk thru the rope trick and if it's an adult audience the story is that I'm going to show them how to win a heart of beautiful lady. Then I will compete for her with the guy holding the other end. And if she want to stay with me she will walk thru it if not she is staying with him.(She decides on who is the guy helping.)
Of course She walks thru so I send the guy back to his seat and then proceed to announce our wedding day. :angel:
So my question to you is.
If the lady would be your wife and you the guy, are you going to chase me around with the brick? :confused:
Just in case you would come to one of my shows. :bigsmile:
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Dec 11, 2002 07:35AM)
Yeah, you better duck! Jealousy is jealousy, no matter what it's wrapped in! You stay away from my wife with your ropes. Using ropes on my wife is my job. UHHHHH, perhaps I've said too much.

Nathan Pain
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Dec 11, 2002 10:46AM)
[quote]
On 2002-12-11 00:53, Vaclav wrote:
nathanpain

A little question.
At almost all of my shows I'm doing this walk thru the rope trick and if it's an adult audience the story is that I'm going to show them how to win a heart of beautiful lady. Then I will compete for her with the guy holding the other end. And if she want to stay with me she will walk thru it if not she is staying with him.(She decides on who is the guy helping.)
Of course She walks thru so I send the guy back to his seat and then proceed to announce our wedding day. :angel:
So my question to you is.
If the lady would be your wife and you the guy, are you going to chase me around with the brick? :confused:
Just in case you would come to one of my shows. :bigsmile:
[/quote]

Why not write the routine around the guy? If the guy is true to his girl he can walk through the rope. Almost like a lie detector. You could play it straight, or as a great comedy bit. In my opinion (even though you didn't ask for it :) )it is always bad form to make yourself look like the hero at the end of the trick.

MANY magicians do this and in my opinion it is often why many people hate magicians. Ask anyone what their biggest complaint is about magicians and it will almost always be, "The try and make people look stupid and they think they are better than everyone else."

I've checked, that's what I usually get back.

Not to mention, a guy using a magic trick that that tries to makes him look desirable to women almost always comes off like a geek who can't get a date. It is often uncomfortable to watch. <-- I am talking in general here and not about you or what you described. Just food for thought.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Peter Marucci (Dec 11, 2002 03:50PM)
Tedb writes: ". . .i play it up big time before the kiss....is there anything in my hands?...rub them, make sure...they do...i look at the man...give him a thumbs up and then say to the woman..so it again...how about in my pocket...come on baby, its my birthday....ok....well then how about a kiss on the cheek...."

This is a joke,right?

If not, it's SO bad on SO many levels, there's no point in even beginning to try to respond!

I'm just surprised somebody hasn't SHOT you by now!


:rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 11, 2002 03:51PM)
Great lie detector idea Danny!!
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 11, 2002 04:12PM)
Yea Peter, it's a joke. Hey, Peter, what is it that you do for a living?
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Dec 11, 2002 04:35PM)
I want to read more posts by Ted. Ted, if that's not true, then make up some more stuff and post it here. I'm laughing!

Frank
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 11, 2002 06:09PM)
Hey Peter,
Where would we be with out humor? CANADA!!!!!!

Hey Frank,
i'm a funny guy. That's why I get to do this for a living.:) Isn't life beautiful? Guy with no sense of right or wrong, making a living, making them smile, laugh. But I have never played Canada. They would...What did my bud Pete say?...oh yea, shoot me. It's amazing, all those people that laugh their butts off must just be nervous :) cause all the stuff I do is wrong.

:)

koz
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Dec 11, 2002 06:14PM)
[quote]
On 2002-12-11 17:12, tedb wrote:
yea peter...its a joke...hey peter what is it that you do for a living?....
[/quote]

Hey Koz, Peter is magician and a busker, just like you and me (from what I hear he is not too bad although I've never seen his act).

He is also a guy who has come up with A LOT of pretty good (and some GREAT) original stuff.

He is also a relative of your teacher's, teacher, Slydini (notice Peter's last name).

Peter is one of the good guys, he just HATES bits like the one you describe. **shrug** they can't ALL love us all the time :)

Best,

Dan-

P.S. he also has some pretty strong opinions just like you and me. In case you hadn't noticed :)
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 11, 2002 06:29PM)
Danny, that's cool! When someone says to me, I'm hurting magic and I give magicians a bad reputation because I do a bit he doesn't care for, then, well, I get a little upset. That's the nicest way I can put it. 100's of guys do the same bit for the last 100 years.

I have to tell you something, I would rather make them laugh than go what the %$^*!!!! I make them do that, but funny is money and I do ok. This has been an interesting thing, this post, this whole thread. It was worth losing this spot just to have this happen. We are so diverse in how we make it work. I respect Peter for going out there and making a living for so many years. Well, he looks like he has been around for a while...that was a joke, Pete...lol...Not funny in Canada, but pretty funny to me here in NY. And Danny, I always respect your opinion and to tell you the truth, I think we are now friends.

koz
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 11, 2002 07:04PM)
You can actually look over Peter's material at the Online Visions site, and to the best of my short term memory (and it hasn't been that good lately), he writes a column in one of the trade magazines.

But back to the bit....

Now what, Koz? Do you have a new spot staked out?

Also, do you have more than one act routined?
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 11, 2002 07:09PM)
Yea, sure. I do 40 festivals a year. Not too short on work. And it's amazing, they always ask me back. Well, almost all the time. I'm going to New Orleans to working there a bunch this winter. I also have some other pitches I'm working on.

I have routines that are modular so I can just plug stuff in.

koz
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Dec 11, 2002 07:25PM)
koz,
"...a guy with no sense of right or wrong"
I'm laughing again.

I like that. Keep it up. That way you're getting smacked and I can just sit back and laugh my butt off.

Come to San Francisco or something so I can check out your act.

I'm horrible at gathering a crowd.

Speaking of a crowd. Are there any acts out there that use 2 magicians or dueling magicians? Seems like that could be pretty funny. 1/2 the hats I suppose since you'd have to split 'em.

Peter, where do you do your busking?
Message: Posted by: Vaclav (Dec 11, 2002 08:30PM)
[quote]
On 2002-12-11 11:46, Danny Hustle wrote:

Why not write the routine around the guy? If the guy is true to his girl he can walk through the rope. Almost like a lie detector. You could play it straight, or as a great comedy bit. In my opinion (even though you didn't ask for it :) )it is always bad form to make yourself look like the hero at the end of the trick.

MANY magicians do this and in my opinion it is often why many people hate magicians. Ask anyone what their biggest complaint is about magicians and it will almost always be, "The try and make people look stupid and they think they are better than everyone else."

I've checked, that's what I usually get back.

Not to mention, a guy using a magic trick that that tries to makes him look desirable to women almost always comes off like a geek who can't get a date. It is often uncomfortable to watch. <-- I am talking in general here and not about you or what you described. Just food for thought.

Best,

Dan-
[/quote]
"BUT I CANNOT GET A DATE."

Actually, so far I have had no bad response,
for the routine is non-offensive.
And I do not portrait myself as a hero. Far from it. It is a very good comedy and people are laughing from the very beginning to the end. But you would have to see it. :)

As for Nathan Pain,
a note to myself, "Always make sure he is not in the audience!" :bigsmile:
By the way ropes? At home? :wow:
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 11, 2002 08:32PM)
Yep, I'm gettin smacked. That's why I don't like magicians. They are so judgmental. Cellini would say to me, "Screw Pete." What's he matter anyway? Who's ever heard of him? Of course, he didn't say that but he likely would...lol...It's amazing, a guy like me, travelling the earth, no sense of right and wrong, making money. People will watch anything won't they? lol I suck. Someday I aspire to be good enough to play Canada. lmao
Message: Posted by: Vaclav (Dec 11, 2002 08:42PM)
tedb
There is only one thing to say. You with the kiss gag and me with the rope are doomed.
And as for playing in Canada?
I think even a tourist visa is now out of the question. :bawl:
But do not worry, there are some other countries. Like a... or the...uhmm...or other. See? So do not wory. There is a hope. :dancing:
Vaclav
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 11, 2002 08:46PM)
It sucks to hear our magic life is over. I guess I might start writing a column in a trade magazine on how not perform magic.
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Dec 11, 2002 10:46PM)
Vaclav,
You'd better leave my special special ropes out of this discussion. :)

Nathan Pain

Maybe you guys could just do the six card repeat instead, but wait, that will offend also. I'd rather have ya kiss my wife, than see that one more time! When I was a teenager, I was great at six card repeat, PLEASE FORGIVE ME! It has been banished!
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Dec 12, 2002 02:27AM)
I'm going to try to interject without making any judgments...

Just because a bit is 100 years old doesn't mean it's still good today. I LOVE Abbott & Costello, but a mean guy slapping a sweet, chubby guy all the time wouldn't be accepted well in today's social climate. Neither would Al Jolson in blackface.

Further, while I hate it when I lose a gig, it is a proprietor's right to can you any time he wants for any reason he wants. It's happened to everybody (except maybe Skinner...) who's performed for any length of time.

I did a little "market research." I asked 12 ladies, ranging in age from 18 to 65 (one was my wife), how they would react if they stopped to watch a show on the street and someone did this to them. 11 said they would be very offended (the 65 year-old said she'd be flattered!), but only one said she'd complain to management, the rest said they'd play along and laugh and pretend to enjoy it, but that they would never hire that person for a private show, and six said they would warn their friends not to stop/participate in that performer's show.

For what it's worth...

Oh, and by the way, I'm a funny guy who takes some chances, too. I used to do that bit occasionally myself, but I stopped when I got married, as it offended my wife. She never said anything, but I could tell she didn't like it, even though she knew I was teasing...

So, it's up to each person to decide. But remember, just 'cuz folks aren't complaining...
Message: Posted by: SpiffnikHopkins (Dec 12, 2002 03:03AM)
Ok so I have to ask...What is Cellini's gag with the kids and money? I'm just a poor college kid and have no money for anything other then text books and ramen noodles for breakfast lunch and dinner so I'd love someone to explain it rather then refer me to this book or that.
OR pay off my loans and I'll buy the DVD (and a player =-)

Sounds great though!

Oh and for the record, I'd think the Kissing gag would be really funny. I wouldn't mind if it was done to my girl so long as the guy didn't look like he was a sleazy STD kinda guy. I'd also only laugh on the outside if it was done in a way where she thought it was funny.

~Spiff
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Dec 12, 2002 06:43AM)
[quote]
On 2002-12-12 04:03, SpiffnikHopkins wrote:
Ok so I have to ask...What is Cellini's gag with the kids and money? [/quote]
It's actually Gazzo's gag, and YES he did write it, although no one gives him credit for it. I've done a TON of research on Gazzo's act (see spent almost a grand on reference material) and that gag is listed NOWHERE in the annals of vaudeville history. And I've gotten my information from reading over 500 books on the subject, not to mention every gag book Robert Orben ever put out, a hundred Vaudeville blackout sketches, several large tomes on the subject, and I even had the good fortune of talking with several guys and gals over 80 who worked the circuit. The guys who were around before the early 80's busking NEVER saw a street performer do that gag before Gazzo.

While I am at it, it looks like the lighter gag belongs to Birdie McClean as well.

There is A LOT of material in Gazzo's show that can be traced back to Orben, vaudeville, or motion pictures, but this is not one of them.

If you want to see the gag, buy Gazzo's new cups and balls tape. That bit alone is worth the price of admission.

Best,

Dan-

P.S. Being poor is no excuse for ripping off someone. If you want the bit, pay for it. Buy the tape. You are talking to a group of street performers. If you want money, get out on the street and earn it! You can make enough to buy that tape in an hour. I doubt very much that you will get any hand outs from this group.

OR

One of the idiots that thinks Gazzo didn't write the bit might just be sleazy enough to tip it here.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 12, 2002 07:13AM)
Cellini doesn't do gags. None. He does magic. That's it. He makes you smile by using his voice, not really jokes, just little things. And his face...he uses his face to make you laugh. There is only one of him. I'm not Cellini.

I'm gonna research this kiss thing myself. I'm gonna talk to people after I do it to see what they think of it. I tell you this though, the husband almost always laughs. Almost always.

koz
Message: Posted by: StreetWalker (Dec 12, 2002 09:27AM)
The kissing thing is a dangerous act. For starters, if you're going to perform it, stop short. The Gazzo gag was supposed to be an "eye looker." You don't actually kiss them, just look at them and go "oops" and make them blush. The reaction is ten times better and no one actually gets canned.

Peace out
Walker :kiss: :kiss:
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Dec 12, 2002 09:30AM)
[quote]
On 2002-12-11 21:32, tedb wrote:
Yep, I'm gettin smacked. That's why I don't like magicians. They are so judgmental. Cellini would say to me, "Screw Pete." What's he matter anyway? [/quote]
You know, what we do is about pushing the envelope. It is about taking the act, the magic, and the audience right to the edge and let them stare down into the pit.

Sometimes we fall in. All the bits can't always work.

It is a process and it works different for each and everyone of us. We have to find what works for us. Then we have to hone it.

It doesn't matter what anyone says as long as the frogskins are going into the hat at the end of the show. That is the bottom line.

For the record, I am about as hostile as Pete is in his dislike for the kiss bit in my description of about 90% of the guys out there who have wind tunnel tested hairdos, dance with their toes pointed, and dismember women to bad cha-cha music, while trying to make the audience believe the women find them sexy. I HATE these guys, I think they give magic a bad name, and I could sit here and start a rant and not stop until the cows come home.

But, this doesn't change the fact that a lot of them make a TON of money and some play the bigger houses in Vegas. So, it seems that a lot of people do not subscribe to the same philosphy as me on this topic.

My job is to bring to the public something different. That is all I can do. I try to bring something that "I think" is "better." It doesn't mean that it is in fact 'better,' but it is in my universe.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 12, 2002 10:22AM)
I'm not one of those guys that are slick Vegas guys. I dress goofy. I act a little goofy and they laugh everytime. Everytime. It works, but I lost a good gig because of it. 1 guy took it the wrong way, likely because of the way I presented it, so I most likely will kill it.

But, just because Pete doesn't like it doesn't make it wrong. Or Danny or whoever else uses it. Man, Gazzo is the most offensive street magician on the planet and I bet Pete would hate his show. That's Pete's personal opinion. which he has the right to have.

I love Gazzo. We are so much alike. I do more magic in my show, but the lines are similar. I cross that boundary of good taste 'cause I like it and so does most of my audience. Now, if Pete is watching me, he's welcome to move on. It's likely he's only worth a buck anyway. In other words, change the channel. Understand Pete? I had no problem with your opinion until you thought your opinion was the only opinion. And when you said I hurt magicians by doing these kind of gags and I give magicians bad names. Well, I tell you what., adults think magic is for kids and I want to get past that.

People don't like magicians because they think it's just for children. When they leave my show, they are laughing out loud And I hear all the stuff that Gazzo hears. That was great. So for one bone head to take this thing in a different way then it was meant to be presented is, well, too *** bad!!!

I love Gazzo. He takes it to a different place. He understands. It's humor that is what pays the bills so he makes them laugh. Took my wife to see Gazzo. She hates magic. She laughed out loud for 45 minutes then she said, "You two are too much alike." He's so rude. I'm rude too. And it's fun and the audience usually knows that it's not real. It's a show.

koz
Message: Posted by: Pokie-Poke (Dec 12, 2002 03:37PM)
I think it also depends on where you do your bit. The kiss bit would work in, say Washington Sq Park, but maybe not at Central Park, or South St.
If you want to feel like the loneliest, most unwanted person in the world, take your pc. kids b-day party show to Washington Sq. Park. At best you'll get the kids to cuss you out. Empty hat in hand.

Getting slapped for the kiss would still be funny.

Oh and Scott, asking someone if they think a joke is funny with out them seeing it for themselves is still no judge. I am willing to bet that most ladies would object to, "What would you think if some one tricked you into kissing a complete stranger for a joke in front of a big crowd."
The older lady was probably the least offended as she has probably seen the joke before. Just because it's old doesn't mean every one has seen it before. A joke out of context is not going to work. Hitler, the holocaust, funny stuff, hun? Ask Mel Brooks!

If you are any good, sooner or later you will offend someone. Some people are offended by you just being there. What then?

Oh and Koz, maybe it's me, but some people may be offended by the number of times you said, "I love Gazzo." Hmmm...
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Dec 12, 2002 05:03PM)
True enough, although that is not remotely how I phrased it. Further, as I said, I'm not "judging" it--just offering something to consider. Consider it or don't--your choice.
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 12, 2002 05:19PM)
Dueling magicians! There's already music to set it to.

Frank, you're cracking me up now!

Dum dum dum di dum :lol:
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 12, 2002 06:22PM)
The sad thing here is this thread is coming to an end and it has been fun!

I'm off to New Orleans tomorrow so if any of you are going to insult me, do it now while I can still have the pleasure of reading it. Please...geez! I hope they like me in New Orleans.....:)

koz
Message: Posted by: MagiUlysses (Dec 12, 2002 08:21PM)
Greetings and Salutations Koz,

Before you go, can you leave us with an update on your video projects with Cellini? I'm looking forward to Vol. 2.

Thanks for sharing, you've made it interesting. Get some fat hats in The Big Easy.

Later,

Joe in KC

Live a great adventure,
choose an extraordinary life!
Message: Posted by: BroDavid (Dec 12, 2002 10:15PM)
Hey Koz,

You know that "Norl uns" is below sea level don't you? And when people die down there, they dont bury them in the ground because they would just float up to the surface. So instead they put them into buildings above ground called mausoleums.

And when a street perfromer's act "dies" down there, they dont bury it either, they just put in a building above ground called a theater.

Ok that was a long way to go for nothing....

But Have fun, be safe, make magic, and make people happy!

God Bless! C Ya Later, Friend!

BroDavid
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 13, 2002 06:57AM)
lol...Bro, I'm not going to do the kiss thing there. They only shoot you for that in Canada! :)

Joe in KC: Actually, I'm leeaving this morning to go to Cellini's house. We are then going to Atlanta for a lecture then on to New Orleans. So we will be finishing the script I think this week. Well, at least working on it. We expect to edit in January and have it available in March. But the way things go? September? I just don't know guys. Buy his ring video. It's great. And look for the loop ball and a silk video in Febuary. It will be ready then. Pretty sure.

Thanks, and I'm glad I had the chance to make it interesting for you guys. lol

I miss Pete, though!

Later guys,
koz
Message: Posted by: Vaclav (Dec 13, 2002 08:05PM)
Tedb,
I would not be so excited to go to New Orleans.
Don't you know, that if they do not like the performer or if they feel offended by him,(maybe 'cause he kisses some lady), they do not smack you with the brick, THEY FEED YOU TO THE SHARKS. :bat:
But if you must go, then go. But I would do the editing now before THE DEPARTURE.
Just in case ....
Well, good bye and rest in peace. (Or pieces).

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Dec 14, 2002 11:12PM)
I'm in New Orleans right now and still alive. Can you believe it? :)

koz