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Topic: Criss Angel's boy exposes Three Shell Game on National TV!
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 9, 2006 10:50PM)
I can't believe it.
Can you?
Message: Posted by: nbps05 (Aug 10, 2006 12:17AM)
I can believe it lol I just saw it.. I guess he is helpin all the idiots who lose lots of money thinking they have a chance lol but the best was that penn and teller thing I loved it iv seen it before and it alwayz makes me laugh they are just so cool lol
Message: Posted by: jtcavataio (Aug 10, 2006 06:37AM)
I think it was a lousy thing to do, but I am guessing that his ratings are such that its mostly magicians that saw the exposure anyway.
Message: Posted by: Jeff Corn (Aug 10, 2006 09:23AM)
The reason this bugs me so much is because, here in Albuquerque, we have a small group called Cheating for Charity. We go out to these events and fundraisers and do the Three Shell Game, Three Card Monte, and Fast and Loose for chips they get for donations. Now, we have to wonder how many people saw this and are going to come and ruin it for us.
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Aug 10, 2006 10:45AM)
I know this makes some people angry, but if you look at it from a crime prevention stand then it eases the pain. I also do Three Shell Game in my shows, lectures and seminars. If this means I need to come up with a better routine, then I will work on it. From past experiences with the general public, many will forget the exposure and get taken. I have witnessed this personally in my area. Remember, the mind only absorbs so much information. I don't think this will hurt anyone doing it for entertainment purposes.

Message: Posted by: EvilGenius (Aug 10, 2006 01:14PM)
Penn said they got kicked out of the Magic Castle for the cups and balls routine. Was that just part of the act or did they really get kicked out?
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Aug 10, 2006 01:45PM)
P&T were not kicked out of the Castle and have won awards from the Academy of Magical Arts...tis an act as was the 'exposure' of cups and balls that they have been doing for many years.

As for you folks worried about the pea issue, and I doubt it will be remembered since it as done almost in passing, this is what you do. Use a hard pea. There you go, the pea won't handle like they said and you can show that the show was about conning and they pulled a fast one on the spectator.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: Jeff Corn (Aug 11, 2006 01:51PM)
Good point, I just really don't like the fact that they exposed how it worked, when they could have just stated that the pea is where ever the operator wants it.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 11, 2006 06:34PM)
In a recent interview Johnny Thompson summed up his philosophy..."If there's a profit in it."
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Aug 11, 2006 09:15PM)
I usually chime in with "quit fussing and get over yourself, the public doesn't really care all that much about the darned secret." But in this case, unless you're a complete klutz, to do the shell game at all you have to do it well. If you do it well, even an "educated" spectator won't catch it ... if you do it poorly, even an idiot won't be fooled.

It's a bit like [who said it?] the saying that if you're at all competent, you could paint your thumbtip day-glo orange and the public still won't catch on.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 12, 2006 02:17PM)
I'm a bit confused...Are you saying that even though Johnny Tompson told Millions of people HOW IT'S DONE they still won't know? They're that stupid?
I think you are underestimating people....
Or...Are you saying that I am insecure about my abilities, or that I perform it in a bad way?
Please explain. Have you ever been to Universal Studio's and seen me perform there?
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Aug 12, 2006 07:50PM)
On 2006-08-12 15:17, Slim King wrote:
Are you saying that even though Johnny Tompson told Millions of people HOW IT'S DONE they still won't know? They're that stupid?
I'm saying that in comparison to the other things on their mind (How am I gonna pay the rent? Will I get laid tonight? Should I have signed that release when the camera crew from COPS taped my arrest?) even if they do comprehend the explanation, pressing issues will drive it right out of their memories within a day.

As magicians, nothing could be more fascinating - if we see it exposed, we'll remember it, look up the details in a book, put it into our act ... but to "average citizens" it may be "kewl" but the next "kewl" web video will take its place in their memories (until 5 minutes later when the NEXT one eliminates the prior one ... and so on.)

As to your abilities, I'm sure they're superior - I'm saying that the effect in question is one that lends itself well to good presentation, but an inept presentation might as well be a full exposure. Unlike, say, Copperfield's "Statue of Liberty Vanish," which puzzles people to this day even though anyone can plainly see a big old giveaway TWICE and for an extended period if they know where to look on the screen (that coulda been hidden but nobody thought to do so).
Message: Posted by: magiGlen (Aug 15, 2006 02:17PM)
I still remember ther masked magician exposing the one where he's locked in a car and a big boulder is smashed on top and it blows up and I jsut got into magic about a year ago.
Message: Posted by: rowdymagi5 (Aug 15, 2006 04:42PM)
Any exposure is unacceptable (my opinion)

Those who argue that it is okay in any fashion, must not have had their effects exposed. It is no fun performing an effect where some smart aleck tells everyone he knows how you did it, and he really does thanks to Penn and Teller, etc. etc.
Message: Posted by: Jim Morton (Aug 16, 2006 11:52AM)
On 2006-08-12 15:17, Slim King wrote:
I'm a bit confused...Are you saying that even though Johnny Tompson [sic] told Millions of people HOW IT'S DONE they still won't know? They're that stupid?
I think you are underestimating people....
Or...Are you saying that I am insecure about my abilities, or that I perform it in a bad way?
Please explain. Have you ever been to Universal Studio's and seen me perform there?

Exposure is the most overrated issue in the field of magic. Not one of us today would be practicing magic if not for exposure. David Devant was drummed out of the magician society he helped create because he dared to publish a book on magic. Back in the thirties, Camel cigarettes included little cards that featured most of the major tricks that magicians were performing at the time. Magicians were outraged (that's what the little cartoon in Greater Magic refers to). All those tricks are still performed today, and, more importantly, continued to mesmerize people at the time they were printed. Ross is right, the only people who really care are other magicians or people who have a bent towards learning magic in the first place. The rest of the world has better things to worry about. I would also point out to you that none other than Dai Vernon also exposed the shell game as part of a proposed series of films for the general public (I don't think the project was ever realized, but you can see The Professor's explanation of the shell game on the "Dai Vernon's Secrets of Magic" video).

As to the shell game, if you think that most people don't realize that you are somehow stealing and replacing the pea, you are in for a rude awakening. The real trick is getting them to the point where they are sure of something and then yank the rug out from under them. There are many points in a good shell game where you can accomplish this, even when the audience is comprised entirely of people who know how it works.

In some cases, exposure does nothing to reduce the magic. I always thought Shimada was an great magician, but after I saw him teach his techniques at a magic lecture I was twice as impressed.

Having said all that, you might be surprised to find that I am mostly against exposure, but not for the usual reasons. I think that the biggest problem with exposure is not that it teaches people how things are done, but that it persuades people into thinking that they know how things are done, no matter how far off base they are, which can diminish the magic experience. Of course, this is not a new problem. Ricky Jay wrote about Charles Dickens engaging in this practice back in the nineteenth century. Fortunately, the people who seem most affected by this affliction are amateur magicians (like Charles Dickens), so I still don't worry about it much.

Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Aug 16, 2006 04:40PM)
On 2006-08-15 15:17, magiGlen wrote:
I still remember ther masked magician exposing the one where he's locked in a car and a big boulder is smashed on top and it blows up and I jsut got into magic about a year ago.
So you're the exception to my general point.

And if that's a razor blade in your mouth, stop that! And if it's a ticket ... EEEEEW!
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 18, 2006 10:01PM)
Excuse, Excuses, Excuses,
I am taking my daughter to the Magic Kindom tomorrow.
Should I EXPOSE those people for who they are? Should I take the head off of Mickey? Show those kids how it's really done. They'll just forget...right? They are too worried about other issues to remember....right? The actors will have to strive to "Just Do Better" next time! Right?
Exosure is WRONG!
You guys need to THINK IT THROUGH.
Thank You very Much :)
Message: Posted by: BobSheets (Aug 26, 2006 01:00AM)
The mistake, I believe, is in the perception of most magicians about the 3-shell game.

It has been exposed more than any other trick in magic. [b]Everyone[/b] knows how the trick is done. Remember they think it is a game. The operator has to cheat to win. The spectator has the opportunity to "catch" him by betting. They are always wrong! Let's not change that perception. It's to our advantage.

Before I put out my work on the three shells knowledgeable magicians were fooled badly by the routine. I just worked a trade show and was so glad that I had my routine since I don't really care which shell is picked. You just have to stay ahead of the crowd.

There will always be exposure even by those who should know better.

Stay loose. bob.
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Aug 26, 2006 04:37AM)
On 2006-08-18 23:01, Slim King wrote:
Exosure is WRONG!
You guys need to THINK IT THROUGH.
Just because I claim that exposure (especially in this effect) has far less effect than many magicians fear it might, doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. I just don't think it's worth going into a tizzy about.

Among the general public, nobody ... NOBODY ... remembers "the masked magician" enough to tell you his name. Neither can anyone (well, any but a scattered few individuals) recall the details of what he exposed, at least not with enough accuracy to spoil their ability to appreciate a magic show.

That doesn't mean "Hey, let's have more masked magician TV specials!" - just that magic is still very much alive.

"But it's WROOOOONG!!!"

Yes, it is. Now please get some rest, and go out there and entertain people, and be wonderful. Maybe you could include the 3-shell routine in your show - practice a bit, and I promise that even the audience members who "know the secret" will be entertained.
Message: Posted by: Tom Bartlett (Sep 6, 2006 01:31AM)
I do think some of you, have let this topic become as an emotional an issue, as many of the taboo subjects, like politics an religion. I have read this and other threads about this exposure. We need to remember, what Magicians should be doing, which is entertaining people, not defrauding them. If you are entertaining, you should not be so upset and if you are a hustler you should be elated, the more the sucker thinks he know the easier it is to take his money.
Message: Posted by: theheartsfailure (Oct 25, 2006 10:50PM)
I agree with you rossmacrae I saw the masked guy when I was like 15 on tv and to be 100% I don't remember a thing that he said or revieled
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Oct 25, 2006 11:15PM)
The shell game and monte were invented by hustlers. Who gave the game to lames anyhow??? Lol. I can’t believe this! A game that was invented by hustlers is being perpetrated by people who are saying do it for anything but money!!! I don't think this is right! To me it’s the equivalent of people getting crack and saying it should be given away not sold! Crack is an evil drug and if you give it away or sell it still evil! I dare people get a con game that was invented by con men and say give it away but don't sell it! Lol. What a joke!
Message: Posted by: Faulkner (Nov 8, 2006 05:48AM)
"Head off of Micky...actors in the Magic Kingdom"??? Next I will hear there is no Santa.

In New Orleans I worked at a magic shop and every other "buzzed" tourist claimed to be able to beat the monte even though we would explain it is a scam (if the conversation came up) though we wouldn't say how.
I would throw a few (and I'm not that good) and it felt like a John Edwards show. They remember the one they got by random luck (or my poor work) but they forget the 4 losses.

These people will not see exposure if they threw beads at it and this is why the Monte will live on after we are all gone. I believe it is the same with most "exposed" magic.

A robot can do all the magic moves. The real magic is in the performer and there is no way that can ever be exposed.
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Nov 8, 2006 08:41PM)
I have a question? Do magicians entertain people for free or money? Singers dancers and everybody else does it for money. Is it alright for people to get on TV and show people how to 2nd deal, bottom deal, switch dice, etc? If we keep on giving suckers the game ain't gonna be no suckers left.
Message: Posted by: lynnef (Nov 10, 2006 04:17PM)
Ah this whole thread is about con v magic. What is it? 3 card monte is a con, yet Dai Vernon et al turned it into a magic entertainment. (ever see his 7 card monte?) The REAL cons of course are people like the Enron execs who steal a person's pension. As for the small time hustle, no big deal. Didn't Carter the Great get his start after being conned out of a coin? (ie he vowed to learn the trick, and it went on from there).
All in all, I'm not for exposure; and yet the clear cups and balls of P&T was very entertaining to watch. But no, don't expose if you want to keep the entertainment going ... everyone knows that you don't literally make the sponge ball disappear. But you don't have to tell where it goes to! same thing with the shell and peas!
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Nov 12, 2006 12:44PM)
A number of years ago I saw a shell worker on 42nd St. here in NY. He had just taken a woman for a goodly sum of money. He rehashed the mark by showing her how "others" would cheat her and he tipped the work to her. He then resume play with her and took more money from her using the work he had just tipped to her. So much for the effect of exposure.

Has anyone had beefs while working shells or lost work because of the Criss Angel episode?
Message: Posted by: Professor Piper (Nov 28, 2006 10:26PM)
I know a handful, Todd, who no longer do "Salt Shaker through Table" or "Ash (lipstick) Transfer" because of Criss and his exposure.

I wonder, is your insightful, and in all respect, polite response and stance due to your true feelings...

Or because you were on his show?

Because, to me, exposure of any kind to the lay public is wrong and completely undermines the entire fabric of what Magic is supposed to be...

No matter how you want to paint it.


Prof. Piper
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Nov 29, 2006 11:09AM)
The shell game is not a magic trick. Everyone knows how it works. The more people know about the game, the easier to hook them into it and beat them. Criss did hustlers a favor.

The shell game is not a magic trick. Nobody's story is being diminished or changed in any way.
Message: Posted by: SteveTheMagician (Nov 29, 2006 12:12PM)
I find that the exposure of this trick is only an issue if you either (A) suck at it or (B) were using it to actually make money. I mean the game [b]is[/b] a classic [b]swindle[/b]. People [b]know[/b] there is a cheating element to it. Which is why I don't think its a big deal. if a different trick were exposed... say, I dunno, sawing someone in half, that would be a different story.

Again, if it means that someone could loose their hard earned money because of this game, then the exposure of it is for the better.

It shouldn't be presented as magic anyway, it should be a story of how you got gipped, or just a little game of fun, nothing more. After all, it called the three shell [b]game[/b], not three shell [b]illusion[/b] or something or other.

Message: Posted by: Professor Piper (Dec 3, 2006 10:17PM)
With all due respect Mr. Haydn, while the Shell Game may not be a Magic trick per se, that does not excuse Angel for exposing it, or the other without question Magical effects he has tipped without regard to the Magical Community.

It's almost as if he is thinking, I'm a superstar, I can do whatever I want.

That, to me, is the complete opposite of what someone in his position should have as a mindset in regards to furthering and enriching our Art.

Just my 2 cents.

Prof. Piper
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Dec 4, 2006 07:41PM)
On 2006-11-28 23:26, Professor Piper wrote:
I know a handful, Todd, who no longer do "Salt Shaker through Table" or "Ash (lipstick) Transfer" because of Criss and his exposure.

I wonder, is your insightful, and in all respect, polite response and stance due to your true feelings...

Or because you were on his show?
I wonder if those that took out the salt shaker and ash trick did so because they are afraid of people knowing how it's done or someone commented on the method having seen it on Criss's show? And if the latter is the reason, how often it has come up? My advice to them is give it a month and no one will remember.

As for my view being tainted by having cashed checks from Criss, I will just say that exposure done by anyone means nothing. The secret to magic is not how the trick works. Effective magic performance transcends method. At its worst, exposure is just a slight annoyace to real performers.
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Dec 4, 2006 08:06PM)
There is a old saying, "those who cant do teach". I have lost all respect for guys like Darwin Ortiz, and Sal Piacente because they go to the biggest crooks of all, the casinos, and teach them how to beat people. It's just like a guy going to al qaeda and teaching them how to infiltrate the USA. Criss angel is a sucker who would never last 5 minutes as a street hustler 3cm/3sg worker. He is a lame with the game and we say in the streets "Never give game to a lame."
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Dec 5, 2006 01:55PM)
On 2006-12-04 21:06, memph33777 wrote:
Criss angel is a sucker who would never last 5 minutes as a street hustler 3cm/3sg worker. [/quote]

Criss is lucky that he took the so very easy route and became a well known TV personality, and got the fortune that came with it, and not had to do the hard work of being a petty street hustler. I don't know why street workers don't do like Criss did.
Message: Posted by: Tom Bartlett (Dec 5, 2006 06:06PM)

Is being a street hustler about the money?
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Dec 5, 2006 06:49PM)
Over the years, several magic tricks have been exposed. Some I still perform. As mentioned in my earlier post, people will forget. Just as time is a healer, time is also a stealer (taking their memory away about the trick). I agree with Todd. Although I don't expose it when performing it to show you cannot win, it has an impact on members of the audience and they leave knowing not to get involved with this.

Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Dec 5, 2006 07:20PM)
If you are successful with the salt shaker and ash trick it is stupid to take them out of your repertoire for any reason.

How many more magicians are there now making money, buying tricks and creating new tricks since the Masked Magician or Blaine/Angel have been on TV? Plenty more.
Message: Posted by: Professor Piper (Dec 5, 2006 08:27PM)
I'm sorry, but I'm [b]extremely[/b] confused here...

From the I.B.M. section here on the Café:

[b]1) Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any principles of the Art of Magic, or the methods employed in any magic effect or illusion.[/b]

2) Display ethical behavior in the presentation of magic to the public and in our conduct as magicians, including not interfering with or jeopardizing the performance of another magician either through personal intervention or the unauthorized use of another's creation.

3) Recognize and respect for rights of the creators, inventors, authors, and owners of magic concepts, presentations, effects and literature, and their rights to have exclusive use of, or to grant permission for the use by others of such creations.

4) Discourage false or misleading statements in the advertising of effects, and literature, merchandise or actions pertaining to the magical arts.

5) Discourage advertisement in magic publications for any magical apparatus, effect, literature or other materials for which the advertiser does not have commercial rights.

6) Promote the humane treatment and care of livestock used in magical performances

From the S.A.M. section here on the Café:
Step 2: Take the oath

"If accepted as a Member, I agree to do my best to elevate the Art of Magic
and to abide by the Constitution, By-laws, Code of Ethics and Ritual of the
Society of American Magicians.

I shall endeavor to cooperate with the Society in the promotion of its
objectives and to promote harmony among those interested in magic and to
advance the ethics of the profession.

[b]I agree not to expose any modus operandi from stage, platform, television,
radio or in any manner whatsoever.[/b]

I am opposed to cheap literature wherein magical secrets are needlessly
exposed, or to the sale of professional magical effects in cheap miniature
form to the public.

[b]I am opposed to needless and useless explanations of secrets to persons who
are not entitled to know them or who are not interested in magic.[/b]

I am opposed to placing any legitimate performer in a predicament while
that person is before an audience."
So what is the deal?

While Criss may not belong to either the I.B.M. or S.A.M. (I honestly don't know) he [b]is[/b] the now [b]three[/b] time "Magic Castle" Magician of the Year...

In other words an icon that our young and up and coming magicians are [b]supposed[/b] to be able to look UP to, to see how they should behave....

As are many of those that have posted on this very thread.

Exposure is wrong...It will [b]always[/b] be wrong...and I am [b]ashamed[/b] of Criss Angel and those that think it's ok to divulge [b]any[/b] secrets of Magic to the Masses, for whatever reason or however 'simple' the trick may be.

The keeping of our secrets is the very [b]cornerstone[/b] of what [i]sustains[/i] our Art!

It is either the rule or it isn't...

Has Magic suddenly changed because Criss says so?

This should be thought about guys:



Prof. Piper
Message: Posted by: wolfsong (Dec 5, 2006 08:40PM)
I have to admit that I was upset by this as well when it first happened. But after thinking about it for awhile I came to realize that there really are no secrets any more. We live in a time in which anyone who really wants to can find out almost anything just by cruising the web. Just like you could find out how to build a plane
if you really wanted to. The real question is how many people really care enough to look. Most people just want to enjoy the magic or tricks or just experience the game. Not spend time that they have too little of digging up our secrets, and when they do run into someone like Chris they say how interesting then go back to things that interest them and forget what they saw anyway. Most people remember just enough to get into trouble. The people who I have pulled the wool over the most on were people who thought the knew how it was done.
Message: Posted by: Professor Piper (Dec 5, 2006 08:46PM)
While the short-term memory of the uninterest public is probably true...

It isn't the point, it's an excuse for the real issue:

Exposure is in violation of what Magic is all about...You cannot deny, do an end-run, or excuse it...

It is, what it is:


Prof. Piper
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Dec 6, 2006 10:24AM)
Leaving aside the fact that we disagree on the topic of exposure (and leaving aside the insult that because I disagree I have not thought about it "deeply"), let us get back to the original subject of this thread, which was that the workings of a magic trick was exposed on TV.

This is wrong.

The working of a crime was exposed on TV. The three shell game is a swindle that is being used this very day to bilk people of their money.

The intention of that presentation was to show that it is not a game and if you "play" it, you will lose.

It is a message that has been presented before and will be presented again. Whether or not this presentation was effective in preventing anyone from losing their money is beside the point. It is a message that the public should know and it can not be stressed enough. If only one person decides, after seeing this presentation, to keep walking when they see the con being worked on the street, then it was all worthwhile.

It is possible that someone will see this presentation and think they now know enough to bet a cheat. If this thought motivates them to action, they will learn the original message the hard way. Here is a good example of "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing." The possibility that these idiots are out there should not deter anyone from presenting the message that you can not win at the Three Shell Game or Three Card Monte.

The whining of magicians that the presentation of the message makes their job more difficult is petty and self serving. They chose to present a crime for entertainment purposes, so it should be no surprise that their performance might be collateral damage when someone presents the workings of the crime. I use the term "might" for I truly don't feel what was done on this show will effect someone working shells in their act.

I would be very interested to hear what actual effect the Criss Angel show had on the Cheaters for Charity.

And more thing...I work the shells when I do close up.

Todd Robbins
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Dec 6, 2006 11:10AM)
As do I. The exposure has not been a problem. I worked the Magic Castle bar the week after the exposure, doing the shells. People who had seen the show talked about it, were still fooled and amazed by the shells.

Most of the people complaining are probably not shell game workers. They do not understand the game.

There is no secret to the shell game. There is nothing possible to reveal.
Message: Posted by: Professor Piper (Dec 6, 2006 12:42PM)
Fine and well...Point taken on the "Shell Game" issue.

What of the Magic he has exposed without regard to the history of the Art? (Meaning we keep our secrets)

And, Mr. Robbins, no insult was meant...Sorry if you assumed it was.

Prof. Piper

P.S...I am learning the shells at this time, having seen them performed and wanting to learn them...For entertainment purposes only.

Todd Robbins wrote:

[quote]I will just say that exposure done by anyone means nothing.
I have to admit that this thread has haunted me all day...

I came home from work at the Magic shop (after having to tell countless tourists that I can't reveal the secret to the various tricks done by Magicians here in town) and reread this entire thread...

I have to ask, honestly...

Did you [b]really[/b] mean that Todd? Really???

Because I have to tell you, I've respected you and your take on the craft for a long time...

This truly throws me for a loop.

I'm sorry if you feel this is an insult, because it isn't...

It's an honest question from someone who has been around Magic for more than 2 decades and has respected the time honored tradition of keeping the secrets amoungst those who 'need to know them'...

If Magic loses it's secrets, then it isn't Magic any more...

It's a bunch of lame *** tricks...

Prof. Piper
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Dec 7, 2006 06:02AM)
In my opinion the shell game/Monte is not a scam. in my opinion a sucker has a chance to win at the shell/Monte game. I had a friend of mine who was a pimp and when he was in New York he would regularly turn the red card over on New York Monte players. I don't remember which law it is but there is a law that anything is possible. It might not be probable for a person to win at Monte/shell but it is possible. They say that only 2 things are for certain and that is death and taxes. It doesn't say anywhere about the Monte/shell being impossible! These people make me sick! I mean sick to the stomach! The stock market, casinos, carnivals, politicians and others are taking people for billions and billions and you got people running around trying to protect people from losing making $100 bucks at the Monte/shell. This is a *** shame! They say never give game to a lame and I mean George and Canada I want to know how did lames get their hands on the game anyhow? I don't see them going around warning people about poker cheats! I guess maybe because most poker players aren't minorities!

Also street hustlers don't do like Criss Angel because street hustlers have enough respect for the game not to screw it up for everybody! if Criss Angel has his way he would make his money and if he could get everybody in the world to watch TV he would show it to everybody else in the world and everybody would know and there would be nobody who hasn't seen all the magic tricks you guys do. But street hustlers preserve the game for future generations so it will be around for a thousand years. Nothing Criss Angel does is original. He is a sucker who got this game from somebody else and is spoiling it for everybody. The whole world is swindling its the American way. Its called business. Its called turning a profit! If a car dealer buys a car for $1,000 he can't sell it for one thousand. He might buy it for $1,000 and sell it for $4,995 and give a person with bad credit a 15% interest rate. Now he has made or ripped these people off for maybe 6 or 7 thousand but I don't see people lined up to warn America about them! Some people need their heads examined! [b]You[/b] are straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel!

I am a street hustler and I have a friend of mine who is a square. Me and my square friend we went to elementary school together. One time I gave my square friend some game and a friend of mine from Los Angeles told me he said why did you give that square the game? He said all he is gonna do is go and give the game to all his square friends. This is true because this is exactly what he did. This is how Criss Angel got to expose the game. There is a old saying that says anything you love you keep, Jesus said that the good shepherd he cares for the sheep and when the wolf comes the good shepherd or owner won't run off and desert the sheep but a hireling will run off and leave the sheep because they are not his. A real player will not desert the game but a hireling or a sucker who has no business with the game he will give it to anybody and everybody because he doesn't love the game, it means nothing to him! Some players have made the same mistake I did and gave this game to suckers and now many suckers know about it! Sorry about the bad typing but my hands are tired.
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Dec 8, 2006 08:43AM)
Jay, the reason these are known as scams is because the sucker is not supposed to win at them. Although a judge in New York City did rule once that it was gambling, he was wrong because no one explained the mechanics to him. The only way anyone can have a chance to win is if they are allowed to do so. But, a true worker will not allow it.

Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Dec 8, 2006 09:01AM)
Jay, I have done something about crooked and gambling carnival games in my area, and taught other LEO's about it as well.

Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Dec 8, 2006 11:55AM)
Magician you are a policeman and I am a street hustler. I have had experience with the shell game on the street. As I told you a friend of mine from Atlanta killed 2 guys in California over a Monte game. Now this is a true story, the jury found him not guilty because the jury said they were gambling, they lost their money, and when they tried to take the money back they were trying to rob him. And he married his lawyer who was a white woman. This is a true story and if I am lying I hope I die now! I beat a guy out of some money one time playing the 3 shell game and I gave him his money back and he wanted to take my money. I ended up stabbing the guy and the cops came and were gonna take me to jail. The cops told him if they took me to jail for aggravated assault they were gonna take him to jail for gambling, so he signed a refuse to prosecute form and neither of us went to jail. So from my experience and my opinion 3 Card Monte and 3 Shell Game is gambling.
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Dec 8, 2006 12:22PM)
I cannot help what cops in other jurisdictions do, all I know is what our laws in Georgia are. If you beleive it is gambling, I disagree, but respect your opinion. We have charged these people with theft by deception when arrested and our court upheld the charges. You have your experiences and I have mine that has made my mindset on this subject matter.

On another note, as I said in another forum, I will be in Memphis next April. I would like to meet you for dinner and drinks (our treat). My girlfriend has a friend there and I have kinfolk there. I have dined with street hustlers in the past.

Regarding courts; do you really think that a jury is made up of your peers? If it were, they would all be street hustlers. Triers of Facts and Judges have been wrong before and will be so in the future, that is what they call Justice.

Message: Posted by: Dave V (Dec 8, 2006 12:44PM)
I agree with the last post. They may think it's gambling... but we know better.

Here's my favorite W.C. Fields line:

Sucker: "Is this a game of chance?"
WC: "Not the way I play it, no."
(My Little Chickadee)

It sounds like it might be to the hustler's advantage to have law enforcement believe it's gambling.

Of course that also means it's the job of people like Glenn to counter that by educating them otherwise. Whether the magician thinks it's their job to push the issue either way seems to be the touchy point here. I like Whit Haydn's saying "You can't smarten up a chump." It could very well be we're fighting a losing battle. They will believe whatever they want to believe, regardless of our efforts to convince them otherwise.
Message: Posted by: SeaDawg (Dec 8, 2006 02:42PM)
You want to turn the 3 Shell game into Gambling. Let the worker make his moves.
Let the "Mark" pick his shell. Then a seperate party turns over both choices that are not the marks with a long implement, ie dental pick. If the pea is not there, then by default it should be under the one he picked, and therefore he wins.

Then it becomes gambling. Anything else involving holdouts, late loads etc are are cheating and a scam. Just because casinos prey on the innumerate, doesn't make their activities illegal. I do not want to digress into a thread on the moral and ethical ramifications of gambling. And lest one think I am a "casino" virgin, I have more hands of casino blackjack played as a pro behind me then I ever want to try and calculate. Why did I quit? My wife didn't want my girls to grow up thinking that a card counting gambler was a profession( even though it is.)

I do Fast & Loose as a routine, and am working on bringing my shells to performance level. But they are routines and done for entertainment. Trying to hustle "F& L " or 3SG as a living is very very dangerous business in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: mota (Dec 8, 2006 04:45PM)
memph33777 said:

"As I told you a friend of mine from atlanta killed 2 guys in california over a monte game. Now this is a true story the jury found him not guilty because the jury said they were gambling, they lost their money, and when they tried to take the money back they were trying to rob him."

What case was this? Who was the defendant? It would be interesting to read. As the information is all public access there should be no privacy issues.

So, who was the charged person?

Where in California was this tried?

What year was this?
Message: Posted by: dxsare (Dec 8, 2006 09:31PM)
On 2006-12-05 14:55, Todd Robbins wrote:
On 2006-12-04 21:06, memph33777 wrote:
Criss angel is a sucker who would never last 5 minutes as a street hustler 3cm/3sg worker. [/quote]

Criss is lucky that he took the so very easy route and became a well known TV personality, and got the fortune that came with it, and not had to do the hard work of being a petty street hustler. I don't know why street workers don't do like Criss did.

Criss Angel worked the streets for years every thursday I believe and did a show before he got famous with TV. The funny thing about people who bash Criss is he is actually a very good magician, has a very unique stage show, and IS NOT limited to how he is portrait on his show Mind Freak. This is coming from somebody that doesn't really care for the show, but I do appreciate what he has done for magic, and for how he has helped give magic a comeback.

Stevie D
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Dec 9, 2006 03:42AM)
First let me answer policemagician. that's all it can be is gambling. If I am playing monte with some guys and the cops come the guy cant say I put a pistol to his head and made him play! he played because he wanted to of his own free will! So it is gambling! I was a well known con man in memphis! I beat a guy out of his money 1 time at monte and there was this very prejudice cop in memphis who knew me very well! The mark saw the cop and he was a white mark and he told the cop hey this guy just robbed me! The cop replied no you are lying, he might have wopped(beat) you out of your money but he didn't rob you and the cop never asked me to stop and I turned the corner and kept going! This is because that cop knows that tricks give me my money! he knows I don't take money. he knows that the only tricks I get money from are tricks who deserve to be beat! The larceny in their heart got them beat. Now to mota and who was the guy and where yada yada yada. His name was blue and he was from atlanta. This took place in San Diego Ca. around 85 or 86. Most street hustlers don't give you their real name.
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Dec 9, 2006 06:11AM)
Jay, I understand your point. Although some cops look on this as gambling, that is not the charge we would affix to the warrant if we caught someone here in my jurisdiction. Here, it is looked upon as fraud, pure and simple, and the charge of theft by deception sticks. If it is under 500 dollars the charge is a misdemeanor. Over 500 makes it a felony. I hope you understand my point. Enough said on this by me.

Message: Posted by: Matt Pulsar (Dec 11, 2006 11:46AM)
Wow, what a thread. Many things have been said that seem to need more thought. There seems to be a question as to if exposure is wrong or acceptable in certain circumstances. I think the salt shaker and lipstick ash exposures and the levitating styrofoam cup are much worse exposures than the shell game. But even in this instance you can show them the game, show people lose and then show how much control the worker really has without giving out the method.

memph33777 stated that the game is gambling and that you can win. And to that I just laugh. You say your pimp friend would win at monte, don't you think he may have been with it a little? Aside from which if you say the mark has a chance to win the three shell game, then all you are telling this magic community is that you don't know how it works, but I don't believe that is true.

As per the argument that there are no secrets in the world I think you are sadly mistaken. Yes, you can find it in a book, and yes, you can surf the internet and come up with something, but in those instances you are making an effort to know. When it comes to a national television show you may be there to see something amazing and you may be wondering how things are done, but if they just give it to you what does that accomplish. In the old days of network television it may have been fleeting to have these exposures. But today? The shows are going to run many times, then there is the DVD world where people are going to show these things to their friends, and then You-tube, its all there to view over and over and over again.

I agree, we are not going to lose our shirts over this. I agree that a good act is a good act, and the exposure of its secrets is not going to destroy it. But, it is still unethical to expose magical secrets, and we should not support this action.
Message: Posted by: Professor Piper (Dec 11, 2006 09:34PM)
Extremely well put Stuart, thank you!!!

You make my point (with much more eloquence (sp?) than I, but the point remains the same...

Exposure, in any form, is wrong.

Prof. Piper

P.S....I find it curious that none of the notables (Whit, Todd, or Pete) have chosen to respond about the exposure issue (Leaving the Shell game OUT) since posting the Oaths of the various established Magical Organizations...

Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Dec 11, 2006 10:14PM)
Did Criss just show how the trick was done, or did he teach how to do it?

Sorry for the delay in response. For some of us, it's a busy time of year.
Message: Posted by: Professor Piper (Dec 11, 2006 10:36PM)

He exposed, so far as I have seen personally, levitating styrofoam cup; ash (lipstick) transfer; and salt shaker through table...

He showed the trick (sans explanation) then, after the commercial, he taught the trick (exposed it).

Hope you have a wonderful Christmas...

No problem with the delay and I'm hoping that wasn't one of those unintentional insults, because it's a pretty busy time of year for me (and other non-VIPs) too! Personally, I haven't stopped for a breath between gigs and shopping for a WEEK!

Prof. Piper
(Terry, who is looking FORWARD to a quiet Jan and Feb!)
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Dec 12, 2006 08:48AM)
If you remember some of the magic specials a few years ago, Mac King exposed some tricks as well.

Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Dec 12, 2006 09:01AM)
On 2006-12-11 23:36, Professor Piper wrote:

He showed the trick (sans explanation) then, after the commercial, he taught the trick (exposed it).
Okay, here is another way that we define things differently.

The masked magician showed the workings of tricks with no intention other than a salacious reveal of method. This is exposure.

To explain how simple tricks are done with the intention of inspiring someone to actually try them is not a bad thing.

Some might argue that this instruction was unsolicited and therefore was gratuitous. This same comment was made about Mac King's segments on the World's Greatest Magic Specials. I know of someone that saw those segments, gave some it a try, tasted success, went further with his learning and is now a decent magician.

Once again, this is not a bad thing.
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Dec 12, 2006 07:06PM)
Stuart let me tell you something. I am a street hustler and my friend who went to new york had been a monte player all his life. This is the only way he was able to win at monte. You seem to know nothing of the streets. Without rambling on and on in my opinion you are just giving your opinion from somebody who sits on the sidelines! I have made thousands of dollars playing monte on the street! Have you ever played monte on the streets? So if you havent I don't think you know what you are talking about. I have no reason to lie to you. I have turned the red card over on hustlers who tried to hustle me! So if you aint been in the streets please don't try to tell me about the streets! Tell me about some candy *** magic trick you do somewhere! lol
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Dec 12, 2006 09:56PM)
Memph33777, are you a street hustler?
Message: Posted by: Professor Piper (Dec 12, 2006 10:57PM)
On 2006-12-12 10:01, Todd Robbins wrote:

Okay, here is another way that we define things differently.

The masked magician showed the workings of tricks with no intention other than a salacious reveal of method. This is exposure.

To explain how [b]simple tricks[/b] are done with the intention of inspiring someone to actually try them is not a bad thing.

Some might argue that this instruction was unsolicited and therefore was gratuitous. This same comment was made about Mac King's segments on the World's Greatest Magic Specials. I know of someone that saw those segments, gave some it a try, tasted success, went further with his learning and is now a decent magician.

Once again, this is not a bad thing.

You are addressing at least one of the main points of my arguement here Todd...

Simple tricks...

But who decides where to draw the line? What if Criss finds, say, "Ultimate Airborne" of any bottle to be a 'simple' trick and exposes it? What about the TT? Or IT? Zombie Ball??

The point is: There are too many interpretations of 'simple' to be narrowed down...Which is WHY exposure via mass media (Television) is specifically addressed in the various Oaths of Magical Organizations.

And although I am unfamiliar with the episodes that Mac King exposed tricks, it doesn't matter...

It's still wrong.

And so you know, this issue is important to me because of where I work and how seriously I take the Art of Magic...I work in a VERY high traffic Magic Shop (three of them actually)...The busiest of our shops is in the middle of a popular Theme Park here in Branson...There isn't a week that goes by that tourists (Whether serious about Magic or simply the curious) that don't either ask me to explain tricks or ask my opinion of Angel/Blaine/Copperfield/The Masked Magician/Local Magicians/etc...

During our peek season I meet and interact with roughly 50 THOUSAND people a week (Perform for a big percentage of them as well)...

I can tell you, as an honest observer and one schooled in observation (BA in Psychology), these folks are paying attention when Angel and others expose tricks...Some are OK with it, while others are angry...They tune into his show to be amazed, not shown how the stuff works...

If you think that a large portion of those who are exposed to the methods behind tricks simply forget them a week later, you are mistaken...And sure enough, one of those that caught the show will be in the audience of a Magician about to do, for instance, "Salt Shaker through Table" and will yell out how it's done and embarrass that Magician (Which is also a violation of many Magical Oaths)...

Exposure is a slippery slope and one that should not be tread upon lightly...

My question is this:

Why does Criss feel it necessary to expose tricks in the first place? As far as can be seen by the shows ratings and numbers, he's doing fine...Is it ego? I'm a superstar, so I can do whatever I want...

Or is it a misguided need to 'show off'?

If he is so interested in getting Magic into more interested hands, then do a Lecture Tour, charge a reasonable price, and show your stuff to those who are interested in PERFORMING Magic...

Not simply showing how certain tricks are done to everyone who watches his show.

Prof. Piper
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Dec 12, 2006 11:16PM)
Prof. Piper,
On your signature is the phrase "Nothing is impossible". Please revise that. Getting you understand my point of view is impossible.

Your last post brings up questions I have already addressed.

The segments were meant to teach. If they exposed anything it was how the viewer could do the tricks if they so choose to do so.

The fact that people come into your magic shops asking about Criss Angel (and Blaine and Copperfield) says that these people are keeping magic alive in the public eye.

Perhaps someone will yell out how the salt shaker vanish done, perhaps they won't and perhaps someone that saw Criss explain it will try it and succeed or perhaps they will try and fail.

Who knows?

Unless some really boneheaded comments are made by others and need to be addressed, this will be my last post on this subject.

And now, if you will excuse me, I have to go and keep Coney Island from being devoured by real estate developers.
Message: Posted by: Professor Piper (Dec 12, 2006 11:35PM)
Good luck with Coney Island, hopefully you will succeed...I'd hate to see that treasure lost.

As for me understanding you point, I [i]understand[/i] it perfectly...

I, however, do not agree.


Because national television is not the sanctioned platform for 'teaching' Magical effects that everyday [b]working[/b] Magicians use in order to earn their daily bread...

Plus, it goes against the very historical ethics that Magic is based upon.

If you can't respect the History of your Art, then you don't have any right to be a member...

And that is MY opinion, and I will stay true to it.

Prof. Piper
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Dec 13, 2006 09:16AM)
I'm glad we settled this issue.

I mean if something is not sanctioned, well, it just must not be done!

I'm not sure who is supposed to be doing this sanctioning, but whomever it is, it must be respected for they make the rules.

Maybe it is the IBM or the SAM that run things. I don't know. What I do know is that major magic organizations were responsible for the success of the major names in magic by awarding them the top honors of their organizations as these performers were making a name for themselves.

The exception to this is David Copperfield

and Doug Henning

and David Blaine

and Penn & Teller

and Siegfried and Roy

and Criss Angel

But that is beside the point.

What must be noted is that hundreds and hundreds of working magicians have been harmed by the teaching segments on Criss Angel's show.

Now, I have to admit that I don't know everything. I have only been doing this stuff professionally for about twenty five years. And though I am one of the producers of NY's longest running magician show and know a couple of hundred working magicians, I have to admit that I know of no one that has been negatively affected by these teaching segments.

But they must be out there.

I'm sure Terry knows hundreds that have had their ability to earn their daily bread harmed by these segments.

and if not hundreds, then dozens

and if not dozens, then a handful

and if not a handful, at least one professional performer that has had spectators interrupt their performance by blurting out how the salt shaker vanish, or the lipstick/ash trick or the truly amazing floating stryofoam cup is done because they saw it on Mind Freak. And if is has not happened repeatedly, well, I'm sure it has happened a couple of times or at least once, and it ruined the career of this performer. And if not ruined, it's harmed them in someway. I don't know how it would harm them, but it must and it is just a bad bad thing.

So, magic MUST NOT be taught on TV.

The historical ethics of magic say so. Now, I must admit that ethics in magic have a checkered past, except when it comes to the SAM and the IBM.

Yes, yes, I hear you saying that one of the founders of the SAM and the first Dean, Kellar stole tricks and routines from others. That's beside the point.

And it is true that a President of the IBM had a hand in the creation as series of print ads that exposed (without even the pretense of teaching) major magic tricks back in the 1930s.

But that's besides the point.

The most important thing to know is that Criss Angel is a bad man that has hurt many many good magicians.

Boy, I am glad I have finally thought deeply about this.
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Dec 13, 2006 09:39AM)
I would like to add that Todd survived the streets sometime ago when he was put on the streets, with no money or credit cards, and lived pretty well by his skill and wits. Out of all who were part of this, Todd made out the best.

Message: Posted by: Professor Piper (Dec 13, 2006 09:56AM)
Gee Todd, you might wanna get your pants out of a bunch there pal...

(And here I was thinking you had posted that you weren't posting on this anymore, hmmm)

I'll relieve you of your feelings, oh great annointed one:

You MUST be right, because YOU say so...

It boggles the mind that a rule is a rule, until the current 'king' says it's not...

Since exposure is such a non-issue with you and your throngs of big-named buddies, then I will have no problems with anyone exposing any of your (and your buddies) creations...

Because it's no big deal, right?

If that's the case, then why was Angel so angry when his "Levitation DVD" was ripped and posted to YouTube?

Oh, I get it, if it's HIS stuff (or the other biggies) that is getting exposed, then it's wrong...

I see.

This goes back to Kindergarten rule learning pal:

A rule is a rule for EVERYONE, not just SOME of us.


Prof. Piper
Message: Posted by: mota (Dec 13, 2006 01:47PM)
JTC (for those who do not know, that is short for a tap-dancing deity).

Exposure is a joke. It isn't an issue. People have been exposing things since I had a hairline.

I paraphrase here from another post. Doug Higley mentioned to me that there have been enough Svengali decks sold to put one just about everywhere but the deck is always new when people see it. When I pitch it I have found it to be true. I have talked to S. David Walker about this...he only has fifty years of experience with this. He just laughed at the ? and waved it off.

It doesn't matter.

No one remembers...no one cares...except for magicians.

Todd has twenty five years performing, David has fifty years, Doug has been around a bit, and I've been around a while myself. Not big names to the public...just hard workers.

I have used the french drop in a routine right after some had seen it exposed. No problem.

If you fear exposure you may not be skilled enough to handle your spectators. That is something that only comes with experience.

Maybe posting less about "gods" and practicing more with real people will alleviate these irrational fears of exposure.
Message: Posted by: Jeff J. (Dec 13, 2006 01:47PM)
It's hard to say which is worse. Criss exposing a few very old kids tricks on TV, or those magic stores, especially the very high traffic ones, that expose the very latest effects on the market to anyone with a couple bucks in their pocket.

If someone ruins your styrofoam cup trick, you can blame Criss, if someone ruins that latest and greatest effect that you saved up to get, blame those guys in the magic store.

Personally I think teaching a few cheesy tricks on TV do MUCH less damage than people like Prof. Piper who will expose ANY trick for a buck.

I don't even know why I bothered commenting. This has turned into such a ridiculous argument. Farewell.

Message: Posted by: C. Loubard (Dec 13, 2006 02:04PM)
I don't understand what all this whining and crying is about. All you guys learned magic because one of your own wrote a book or shot a video. Prior to that, you guys didn't know a double-lift from a rock.

I just finished on another thread about all the whining you guys do. the people that perpetrate exposure is your own heroes; Michael Ammar, Daryl, Banacheck, etc. They produce books and videos which anyone with money can buy... not just magicians. I don't see any of you condemning any online and brick and mortar stores for letting any lay person walk in and buy something.

Then you guys come down on Memph for laying it out. This I will tell you MAGICIANS ARE THE REASON EXPOSURE IS RAMPANT. You guys are also the reason a lot of hustlers secrets were exposed.

For those of you saying exposure is wrong... keep your ethics and morals to yourself and stop creating a demand for goods that expose things to the public.

stop your whining. if it bothers you so much take up gardening.

Ironically as this may sound, hustlers and cheats have more ethics and morals when it comes to exposure

C. Loubard
Message: Posted by: Professor Piper (Dec 13, 2006 02:40PM)
[b]Absolute final comment on this, because some here just can't see the point[/b]

{Nice and clear}

When a person BUYS an effect, they are intentending to PERFORM the trick (whether it be for Mom and Dad and the Gang, or eventually on a Grand Stage somewhere)...

~reread the above~


{Nice and clear}

When someone tunes in to a Magic Television Program they are expecting to be AMAZED and DELIGHTED by the performance of the Star...

NOT to learn how the tricks are done.

Magic shops are the reason for Exposure?

Sure, that floats about as well as a brick.

Get off of the V.ery I.mportant P.edastels some of you are on and remember, way back, when you were taught your very first trick...

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts whoever taught it to you added, at the end of the lesson, to KEEP THE SECRET...

Which is what I do after EVERY sell of a trick that I then explain and TEACH to the BUYER of the trick, NOT the store at large...

There is a difference here, it seems some have become too blinded by the spotlights in their eyes to see it.

Fine, so be it....Expose what you want, I hope at some point a spectator spoils one of your effects and then, maybe THEN you will actually grow up and see the difference.

Prof. Piper
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Dec 13, 2006 03:07PM)
On 2006-12-13 10:56, Professor Piper wrote:
(And here I was thinking you had posted that you weren't posting on this anymore, hmmm)


I stated I was finished posting unless some boneheaded comment was made that required a response.
Message: Posted by: C. Loubard (Dec 13, 2006 03:12PM)
So, Professor! Based on your comment I take it you work in a Magic shop. If so, do you allow anyone in off the street to browse through books?

Do you honestly think telling someone not to reveal the secret is going to stop them?

Do you tell them this after they have bought the trick (meaning they own it), or did you tell them "The only way I will sell it to you is if you promise not to reveal the secret." My guess, after they bought the trick once they already owned it, in which case you have no right to tell someone what to do with the secret.

Do you take any extra steps in preventing exposure, such as having everyone who buys secrets sign a non-disclosure agreement? Let me answer for you... NO!

You guys are run by greed and are a laughing stock when you you cry about exposure.

C. Loubard
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Dec 13, 2006 03:15PM)
I stated I was finished posting unless some boneheaded comment was made that required a response.

LOL! Come on guys, now that's funny!

You think your playing with children??!? You think that "I thought you weren't going to say anything else" line was gonna fly?!??!!? Sorry Prof, I had to laugh, that was like watching a guy walk into a giant venus flytrap. Oh God, that was classic.

Sorry boys, Back to your...whatever it was you were doing.
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Dec 13, 2006 03:59PM)
Okay, now stop it, all of you.

I agree with Terry.

The rules are the rule. Now some will ask who made these rules, but that IS BESIDE POINT. Don't you understand? These are THE RULES.

And Terry knows what people want to see in regard to magic on TV. He knows why they watch it.

Nevermind that the A & E network spends a fortune on focus groups to find out what people like and why they watch what they do so that a show like Criss Angel's will attract millions of viewers. And pay no attention to the fact that these shows are created by professionals that have made their careers putting together successful TV shows. That all means nothing.

Terry knows that people watch magic on TV to be amazed and amused. They don't watch TV to learn. TV is not a sanctioned platform for learning. Oh, I know some might say that the teaching segments on Criss's show had some amazement and amusement as well as entertainment value to them. Well, if you think that, YOU ARE WRONG.

Please people, no more posts on this topic.

Let Terry get back to selling tricks in Branson.

And my friends, sleep well at night knowing that the magic shop Terry works in sells only magic from ethical suppliers that have never knocked off an item created by someone else and that these suppliers pay royalities to the people who invented these tricks.

Think deeper folks, please.

This is my absolutely last and final post on this subject because I have no more to say as this is the end of it for me and I will say nothing further*

*Until my next post.
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Dec 13, 2006 04:08PM)
It is said that if you have 10 people in a room and ask them a question, you will get ten different responses. The same holds true here. Everyone has an opinion about something and many do feel strong about that. Whatever your feelings and reasoning on the "exposure" issue, your opinion should be respected, regardless if you agree or disagree with them.

Rodney King said it best after getting the stuffing beat out of him; "Can't we all just get along".