(Close Window)
Topic: Bottom dealing
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Oct 17, 2006 07:45PM)
Just an opinion question.

How do most of you guys deal your bottoms.

1) prepare the card before you have to deal it and then just take it from the bottom

2)prepare the card and when you take it use your fingers to push the card out and then take it.

3)you use one of the two methods posted but you use either your middle or pointer finger when you take.

Let me know if I have left out an important way to deal the bottom

And please no one write "you do whatever is best for you."

Also put in why you like one way of taking the bottom over another way.


Thanks in advance for your input
Message: Posted by: brownitus (Oct 17, 2006 08:25PM)
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "prepare the card," could you expound?

I don't like the push-off at all, I just use a strike which I would deem fits #3 in your list, possibly. I take the card with my middle finger at the space between my middle and index finger of the hand holding the deck.

But do whatever is best for you! :D ;) Sorry, had to..

Take care
Bobby
Message: Posted by: daniel1113 (Oct 17, 2006 08:32PM)
I use a strike bottom deal; however, I am currently working on Marlo's new push-out bottom deal so that I can do both.
Message: Posted by: Peter Woerde (Oct 18, 2006 03:22AM)
I also use a strike bottom and depending on whether I'm pitching the cards or not I use my index finger or middle finger for the take.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Oct 18, 2006 07:48AM)
Ok,

prepare the card means to bend it on the bottom of the deck so that it just slides off when you pull it out.
Ill try to post some pictures later today to help.

Thanks
Message: Posted by: Justin R (Oct 18, 2006 12:51PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-18 08:48, sodman12 wrote:
Ok,

prepare the card means to bend it on the bottom of the deck so that it just slides off when you pull it out.
Ill try to post some pictures later today to help.[/quote]

I think you're talking about "buckling", right?
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Oct 18, 2006 02:03PM)
Correct.

But but I have herd many people call it preparing the card.
Message: Posted by: EMVT (Oct 18, 2006 03:09PM)
First of all you must learn the proper way to deal the bottoms whether you want to learn the strike method or pushout, just like in any false deals there are advantages and disadvantages in both strike and pushout methods, the one you'll choose will be based on your decision.

As for getting the card ready whether you are doing a magic or gambling expose or demo prebuckling the card is not a good idea trust me just look at the buckling process then go into the deal it's not natural anyone watching you deal or get ready to deal this way you have tipped them off laymen, magicians etc. the right way is put the deck in your hands and deal that is of course knowing the mechanics of the deal before you start.

Good luck and keep practicing
EMVT
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Oct 18, 2006 04:35PM)
Ahh but I pre buckel while I am dealing. Many people use this method. just look in shade you can see Jason England buckel the card while he deals. At least I think that's what hes doing.
Message: Posted by: EMVT (Oct 18, 2006 11:23PM)
Oh sorry thought you said you were prebuckling beforehand then as you started to deal the card would come out my bad, no prebuckiling just before the deal is A! ok just make sure you don't have that dreaded knuckle flash meaning you should try a seesaw type of action which is what Richard Turner calls his bottom, also Marlo has played with this great move as this eliminated this knuckle action I mean the fingers move out slightly to let the card out but the knuckle flash is totally eliminated. You are on the right path keep practicing I'm sure you will make this beautiful deal look great in no time.

Be well and God Bless
EMVT
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Oct 19, 2006 12:39PM)
Has anyone here seen simion lovell deal his bottom. His seconds are good but there is a lot of finger flash on his bottom. Just wondering if anyone else had the same thought?
Message: Posted by: jcards01 (Oct 20, 2006 12:53PM)
If you are doing a 'push' or 'take' bottom, yes the card is loosened first. The three fingers can move in unison to loosen the card so that there is no obvious buckle or old time knuckle flash.

Generally, if the bottoms where going to the fifth hand then the card is 'prepared' or 'positioned' when dealing to the third or fourth hand. Most of this is timing. Everything depends on rhythm.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Oct 20, 2006 03:34PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-20 13:53, jcards01 wrote:
If you are doing a 'push' or 'take' bottom, yes the card is loosened first.
[/quote]

I definitely agree with this.

[quote]
The three fingers can move in unison to loosen the card (I agree) so that there is no obvious buckle or old time knuckle flash (I definitely disagree with this).

Generally, if the bottoms where going to the fifth hand then the card is 'prepared' or 'positioned' when dealing to the third or fourth hand.
[/quote]

I should leave this alone but...

Unless you're talking about the positioning of the cards with the technique that Martin Nash uses before he deals the bottom, I cannot agree with you. There is no way that the knuckles doesn't buckle/bend using this technique. Note: The amount of the buckle depends on the grip that you're using.

It is my opinion after learning the various bottom deals that the strike is the best for not knuckle flashing but then there is the problem of the dropping of the fingers of which I still periodically do because of learning wrong from the beginning (bad habits are hard to get rid of).

A Note To The Beginners

A bottom deal is the dealing of a bottom card in place of the top card. Since this is the case it really doesn't matter how you get the bottom card off of the bottom of the deck because it's still a bottom deal. I said all that to say this, if you're just doing a bottom deal to show someone that you can do it or for a magic trick then the push off is fine and most likely will not be detected by a layman. Now if your goal is to cheat at cards then the strike is much better to use because your audience (players) will be sitting at eye level with the deck and at this point the knuckle bending would look horrible compared to the fingers dropping.

Overall magicians are perfectionist who critique each other on every little thing (which is good and bad) but brings this same false philosophy of what is suppose to be done in magic tricks to the card table not realizing that the people we are performing for are also layman who doesn't know what to look for.

Take it from me, I had to learn this the hard way.

Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: DJC (Oct 20, 2006 04:00PM)
Interesting commentary Doc. While I don't advocate perfectionism I do strive for consistant excellence ( it seems much more practical and rewarding). I absolutely agree with you about people using techniques out of context. I think we all could apply the philosophy of the Art of War that is, nothing carries forward. Each and every situation demands its own. A push off may be perfect in one situation and get you killed in another.
Message: Posted by: jcards01 (Oct 20, 2006 08:18PM)
I've used a Marlo technique that he showed me years ago. I can tell you that all fingers moving together do not flash. There is no

Also, with the strike, it's a matter of learning your grip. I use a strike a lot and position my fingers so that there is no movemment of the fingers whatsoever when the bottom is taken.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Oct 21, 2006 01:28AM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-20 21:18, jcards01 wrote:
I've used a Marlo technique that he showed me years ago. I can tell you that all fingers moving together do not flash. There is no

Also, with the strike, it's a matter of learning your grip. I use a strike a lot and position my fingers so that there is no movemment of the fingers whatsoever when the bottom is taken.

[/quote]

I STAND CORRECTED...MEANING I WAS WRONG.

I would like to thank you for correcting me on this matter being that Ed Marlo was one of my legendary teachers (from a video aspect). Being that he actually taught you, your memory was more receptive than mine in this matter and this is why I was wrong. I was remembering Marlo doing the Cigar Bottom from the video The Cardician where his fingers dropped and what I should have remembered was his video Seconds, Centers and Bottoms where he did the bottom as you said and his fingers DID NOT DROP.

I watched so many other card cheats drop their fingers and buckle so much that my brain got stuck on stupid for a minute. I guess this is why in the gambling world they say that "no one person has all the sense (knowledgeable about everything). So as I did others, I must now do it to myself and take out my DUNCE CAP, put it on and sit in a corner for about a week. It's not easy being in the school of "Hard Knocks."

Readers this is why I'm glad that this forum exist so that I can still learn and stand corrected by other experts like jcards and yourself. Again I apologize for being wrong but I'm only human. Note: There's nothing wrong with being wrong as long as you're man enough to admit it to yourself and others when you find out that you were wrong.

Respectfully,

Doc

P.S. This is actually what goes on in a GAMBLING SPOT....school, you're always learning something new every day in order to deal with this world.
Message: Posted by: jcards01 (Oct 21, 2006 08:29AM)
I also think there was much more to my answer and it may have been edited.

Doc, you are correct in the fact that the Cigar Bottom Deal is just illusionary. There was movement on that video but it was just a place in time that someone caught on footage. I've seen Ed do that deal much better. Also, the video Seconds, Centers, Bottoms has some great footage of Ed doing some great deals.

On of the best video's out there is Prime Time put out by Racherbaumer. Shows a much younger Ed doing indredible work. The Dave Solomon 2-DVD set put out after the 2nd Deal convention is also very good footage of Ed and some of his students.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Oct 21, 2006 09:02AM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-21 09:29, jcards01 wrote:
I also think there was much more to my answer and it may have been edited.

One of the best video's out there is Prime Time put out by Racherbaumer. Shows a much younger Ed doing indredible work. The Dave Solomon 2-DVD set put out after the 2nd Deal convention is also very good footage of Ed and some of his students.
[/quote]

Edited...I sure hope not. I saw that part of one of your sentences didn't make sense but I never thought that it was edited. I think that many of us here that frequents the gambling spot is man enough to hear what an expert has to say...I sure am; and if so it shouldn't have been unless it was some ultra secret being revealed.

Regarding Prime Time and Dave Solomon's DVD set, if they are accessible I wish to purchase them on the strength of what you said and your knowledge of dealing. I think a student should have all the footage of one of his teachers even if it was through video/book teaching.


Your Friend and Don't Mind Being A Student

Doc

P.S. If you have any help regarding the finding of these DVD's or footage please let me know.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Oct 21, 2006 09:30AM)
I found it. Thanks

Doc
Message: Posted by: jcards01 (Oct 21, 2006 01:11PM)
I see you found it. The Solomon stuff can be found at his website. The prime Time DVD or Video is out there being carried by several places.

Doc, I noticed you knew Ed also. Have we ever met that you know of? I go back to the mid 70's and 80's being in Chicago. The round table from 1975 thru the 80's and working at Mr. C's Magic Lounge in the mid to late 70's.

Originally born and raised there but now living near the St. Louis area.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Oct 21, 2006 07:25PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-21 14:11, jcards01 wrote:
Doc, I noticed you knew Ed also. Have we ever met that you know of? I go back to the mid 70's and 80's being in Chicago. The round table from 1975 thru the 80's and working at Mr. C's Magic Lounge in the mid to late 70's.
[/quote]

No Jimmy we never met nor did I know Ed Marlo personally that's why I wrote previously I studied his work by his videos (from a video aspect). After studying the "The Phantom of the Card Table" I seen Marlo in "The Cardician" doing the punch deal (the only known punch dealing video at that time) and from that point on I studied all of Ed Marlo's work regarding gambling; especially his book Seconds, Centers and Bottoms. Another reason why I studied Ed Marlo is because other books that I've read always showed that out of all the magicians that were around gamblers during that time, Ed was the only one to always outshine (learn better or quicker) the others when taught by the hustler. So then why not go and study under the best student?

Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 22, 2006 03:39PM)
Any of you guys got this Turner - Best of Bottoms DVD?

http://www.theambitiouscard.com/details.cfm?product_code=DVDRTBESTOFBOT^
Message: Posted by: jcards01 (Oct 22, 2006 03:53PM)
Yes, I have it.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Oct 22, 2006 05:38PM)
How good is it? it looks like it would be really nice
Message: Posted by: EMVT (Oct 22, 2006 09:40PM)
The Turner best of the bottoms dvd is excellent he teaches you various ways of doing bottoms and his take is great, also this is a double dvd set which gives you some other added goodies as well if you like Mr Turner's style as much as I do you'll definitely love this tape.

Take care
EMVT
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 22, 2006 10:14PM)
I think Richard Turner is one of the very best I ever seen. I did not know about this DVD though. So I will have get it.
I have The Cheat DVD which helped me a lot with my bottom deal but I had to play it in slow mo to see what he was doing.
Message: Posted by: C. Loubard (Oct 23, 2006 09:01PM)
While Mr. Turner is great, I was not overly impressed with this DVD. Perhaps I am currently at a different place with my skill in contrast to some of you here, perhaps not. I am just giving my opinion.

For What it's worth, I have also seen him do it person and was not overly impressed.

Could his bottom "get the money?" Sure, as long as he wasn't playing in the presence of fast company.

Now, his second-deal, in my opinion, is a thing of beauty.

C. Loubard
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Oct 23, 2006 09:36PM)
Thanks for the insight. For some reason I really believe what you say and I don't even know your capabilities.

Doc
Message: Posted by: Logan Five (Oct 23, 2006 10:07PM)
I tryed using the push off for the longest of time but never felt comfortable doing it. I use a version of the strike bottom deal that I learnt from Jerry Camero's video On The Bottom deal. In this deal..the deck is taken away sleightly from the card..for me, this cuts out a lot of noise in the move.

rick-
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Oct 23, 2006 11:05PM)
I use light touch. that usually takes all the sound out. just don't drop the deck