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Topic: Would a real card cheat really study Erdnase?
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Oct 30, 2006 10:11AM)
Don't get me wrong, I love the Expert At The Card Table, but is it really as important as some people make out?

It seems the only real reason a card cheat would study the book is for the psychology behind certain moves. But what of the actual techniques?

As Darwin Ortiz writes in The Annotated Erdnase:
[quote]
Most forms of sleight-of-hand card cheating techniques can be divided into three categories: shuffle work, false deals, and palming and switching. Erdnase is dated in each of these areas.
[/quote]
Should the book be studied just for the psychology and the techniques abandoned?

I can understand a student of close-up magic giving the book serious time and study, but what of the card cheat?

And did Walter Scott really think the book and it's author "a joke"? Or was his opinion motivated by hostility towards Dai Vernon who was linked closely to the book?
Message: Posted by: Mark Ennis (Oct 30, 2006 10:39AM)
I think there is quite a bit to be learned from Erdnase, even if some of the methods are no longer in favor today. Many of the techniques would work in many private games today (ie - false cuts, etc) and as you mentioned, Erdnase has a lot of wisdom that would benefit a future crossroader (attention to detail, uniformity in action, etc).

Also, the legerdemain section of the book still has lessons that are as valuable today as they were in Erdnase's time.

Although I am not as big of a student of the book as many others are, I believe that studying Erdnase would benefit anyone.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 30, 2006 12:15PM)
To answer the question as simply as possible, probably not.
Message: Posted by: daniel1113 (Oct 30, 2006 01:34PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-30 11:11, ES Andrews wrote:
Should the book be studied just for the psychology and the techniques abandoned?
[/quote]
That would be my answer. EatCT is full of great advice which is as true today as it was over 100 years ago when it was published. And although the techniques are dated, they are by no means useless, especially when you consider the $7 price tag. Not to mention the mystery of Erdnase that has yet to be solved. Of course, I don't know if any of this has any value for a card cheat that is more concerned about not getting caught than the history and allure of cheating at cards. I find it fascinating, though.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Oct 30, 2006 01:38PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-30 11:11, ES Andrews wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I love the Expert At The Card Table, but is it really as important as some people make out?
[/quote]

Yes, it's the beginner’s book of a life of crime.

[quote]
It seems the only real reason a card cheat would study the book is for the psychology behind certain moves. But what of the actual techniques ?

As Darwin Ortiz writes in The Annotated Erdnase:
[quote]
Most forms of sleight-of-hand card cheating techniques can be divided into three categories: shuffle work, false deals, and palming and switching."
[/quote]
[/quote]

This statement is true but it has nothing to do with the actual technique.

[quote]
Erdnase is dated in each of these areas.
[/quote]

To me it all depends in what era you lived in. Go back in time when there were no videos/internet what was your resource then? Books. As I read through these forums I see ya'll talking about the same old magic tricks all the time, are these not dated as well? Ya'll may put a twist or variant to it but overall it's still the same old trick.

Now getting to, is Erdnase stuff dated...yes and no. How can second and bottom dealing be dated? Has any one since the beginning of playing cards invented another way of dealing the second or bottom card that's better than the original? I don't think so, so how could this technique be dated.

99.9% of ya'll still can't do most of the moves in Expert at the Card Table and that includes me and I'm definitely better than a whole lot of you regarding gambling moves, so when did these moves become out dated because I still get the money with these moves?

Does not the 3 Card Monte, 3 Shell Game and The Endless Loop still gets the money on the streets today? Are these not old dated hustles? Today ya'll are just beginning to see Cold Deck moves which were being done way before Scarne showed the world, are these new or out dated moves? These moves are just as old as the rest of the gambling moves are but haven't been seen until now and even though old 99.9% of ya'll after seeing it still can't do it.

Why do you like my (old out dated) cold deck moves? Because you’ve never seen it before; likewise my dice switch.

What about these hold outs etc. that the cheats use...do you own one...can you use one if you had one...where can you purchase one from? What new device that you know of that can cap a deck/money? There is none. So as I previously answered yes and no, yes it may be outdated but it's still up to date. Addition and subtraction is dated but there's has been nothing since the beginning of time to take its place. There are certain things that can be improved upon and then again there are certain things that cannot.

Technology and the Mechanic

In regards to technology in the card mechanic area there can be none, only skill and expertise reign here this is why I always say that every person has their specialties. The only thing in my opinion that technology has done for this (skill) area is make the viewing of these feats more accessible to the public and individuals who want to learn it.

Now that you have this viewing knowledge at your beck and call you call moves that has been getting the money for years out dated. I bet that you didn't know that that "Dollar Store" that you or your family frequents was invented by a 3 Card Monte hustler in order to get people in his store in order to con them. Now look at what it has become today.

Another So Called Out Dated Book

I know of a book that many say is out dated but to me it's still up to date to this very day...This book is called "The Bible." I guess that's why they say that there is nothing new under the sun.

[quote]
And did Walter Scott really think the book and it's author (was) "a joke"? Or was his opinion motivated by hostility towards Dai Vernon who was linked closely to the book?
[/quote]

It depends on your level of expertise at the time of reading the book and Walter was definitely ahead of Erdnase in skill in my opinion. As I quoted before, but I’ll rephrase it this time. Most of the best cheats in the country still can’t do the moves that Walter Scott has demonstrated in his book ‘til this date. Note: In the hustling world you may can do more moves than an individual but that does not mean that you’re better. Less is more to the professional cheat. Example: One cold deck move all night is better than 30 perfect hand mucks. Why? Because I did only one move and got all the money on a suckers deal and was able to leave before the stickup guys come to rob me.

My Conclusion:

That which is out dated is actually not out dated when that particular individual has never seen nor heard of that particular thing before.


Respectfully,

The Doctor
Message: Posted by: C. Loubard (Oct 30, 2006 01:59PM)
[quote]That which is out dated is actually not out dated when that particular individual has never seen nor heard of that particular thing before.[/quote]

I agree 100%. The ideology that something so old is outdated does not apply to the cheat. I know of a person who unknowingly (because he's not a magician or a cheat) holds the deck ala erdnase, yet no one has ever said anything to him.

The point of this example is people are just not aware and if they are not aware, they don't know what to look for.

Ask anyone if they have ever heard of Erdnase, outside your circle of magicians, and I assure 98% of them will have not.

C. Loubard
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Oct 30, 2006 02:35PM)
Darwin Ortiz writes in The Annotated Erdnase:
[quote]
He concentrates on overhand shuffle techniques, virtually ignoring the riffle shuffle work favored by today's best cheat's. He makes no mention of the strike second deals, the most popular method today, and he teaches only a push-out bottom deal rather than the "take" approach favored by present-day base dealers in order to avoid finger flash. In the realm of palming, he teaches the full palm which has been almost abandoned by present-day cheats and fails to mention the flat palm and gambler's cop, the prime moves used today in hold-out work and hand mucking.
[/quote]
I can understand using The Expert At The Card Table as inspiration and fundamental insights, but I don't think time should be wasted learning the older methods when better ones exist, (according to Darwin Ortiz). I just trust his opinion. Is he wrong?

I think for magical purposes everything in the book should be studied, but as the card cheaters on this board have said in the past, you should take the best of what can be used form a book and discard the rest.
Message: Posted by: gump (Oct 30, 2006 04:06PM)
[quote]
Would a real card cheat really study Erdnase?
[/quote]
The short answer is yes.

You can find some really great stuff in old, sometimes bland-looking books, that some would consider outdated... so long as you take the time to look through them.

The real key to your success, whether as a cheat or as a magician, is your own ingenuity, open mind, and the willingness to always [at least] look for a "better way of doing things" so to speak.
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Oct 30, 2006 04:06PM)
Since EATCT came out there have been tons of new ideas and techniques.
To my knowledge, there's no one resource that covers all facets of cards.

You say, "you should take the best of what can be used from a book and discard the rest". Well that's true with anything. Some folks may prefer these 'outdated' techniques over newer ones and find them quite usable.
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Oct 30, 2006 04:46PM)
I just don't want to learn and work on moves that don't work and realise after years of practise that I have to unlearn them. I trust the opinion of Darwin Ortiz and when he points out in "The Annotated Erdnase" that a move in "The Expert At The Card Table" is inferior to another, I would rather learn the improved method.

I appreciate peoples opininon on this board as well, so I'm just trying to learn from you all.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Oct 30, 2006 05:32PM)
I think the biggest mistake someone can make is saying one way of doing something is better than another. There are few instances that I can think that this would be true.

I think sometimes people get so caught up in the moves they don't leaner the really important things. such as making up your own sutff on the spot.

In most of the games I play in everyone shuffles different and theres no set way to deal cut or shuffle. now if you play in high stakes games where you have to follow a set guideline then there are better and inferior moves that can be put to use.
But I'm going to guess that those type of games are not populated by the people who post on these forums. But I may be wrong
Message: Posted by: C. Loubard (Oct 30, 2006 06:33PM)
Sodman you are correct. The games I frequent have everyone shuffling differently. Due to the over exposure of poker on television however, I find more and more people trying to emulate the dealers they see on television. This doesn't mean that overhand shuffling is obsolete, far from it. Overhand shuffling is alive and thriving.

I have a philosphy I try to stick by, "You never want to appear better than the best player at the table." This, of course, only holds true if you have not been hired on as a professional dealer.

ES Andrews, I would not worry about over ****yzing what Mr. Ortiz wrote about in the Annotaded Erdnase. While he is a respected author, his opinion is subjective in nature.

I have seen beautiful push-off second deals. Deals that were not only visually deceptive but psychologicaly deceptive as well, Mr. Turner comes to mind. The inverse is also true as well. Mr. Nash has a beautiful strike second. One would be considered accomplished in second dealing if they were to reach the proficiency these two gentlemen have assumed.

The strike bottom, in my opinion, is superior, although many a magician would argue that.

I would urge anyone to study the book and ignore the fact the book was published in 1902. Date has no meaning when it comes to sleights. After all they were created to deceive. I am sure they have upheld that for the last 104 years since the book was first published

C. Loubard
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 30, 2006 06:34PM)
If your going for formal high stakes poker games I would suggest you learn from Erdnase (1) all the riffle shuffle work and (2) the riffle shuffle peek. Obviously you would need to be the dealer and work with a partner. Oh…. and also Best Hand play, in fact to become expert in Best Hand play is the best thing two pals could learn from Erdnase for that sort of game.

If your playing at the kitchen table then Darwin Ortiz or Walter Scott are guys you should study.
Message: Posted by: EMVT (Oct 31, 2006 01:59AM)
All I can say is that I totally agree with DOC on his fabulous thread as far as people saying outdated and obsolete and not being good anymore, I too am a hustler and I go out and I know the real work.

Now many of you may say that yeah yeah whatever! I don't need to prove myself by putting up videos on youtube or anything and nothing against DOC either, all ya'll other hustlers and magicians should be proud and grateful and it definitely should make anyone think about these beautiful techniques that DOC demonstrates beautifully with grace and ease and that many of these techniques were started and originated from Erdnase's time, and what about Erdnase?

Not just knowing these moves that he originated on his behalf but actually playing in games and looking for what would and could work as he definitely knows what he's talking about because he truly was an EXPERT!

So yes these techniques do work and yes there has been great modifications made to these beautiful sleights which work even better but the source of this great book and mystery of the man remains untouched and unsurpassed like a precious stone.

P.S. Us card cheats are the ones who know what works and what doesn't and you know why? because we have ****yzed the whole game and all of it's little quirks that go with it so knowing the moves is one thing and knowing the way your mind and hands must work together with one another when you are totally surrounded with other card players this is the REAL DEAL and you must know what to do EXPERTLY at the right moment to get the $MONEY then and only then will you truly become an EXPERT AT THE CARD TABLE!

May this great man rest in PEACE with the utmost respect and admiration, YOUR LOYAL STUDENT FOREVER

EMVT



So what I'm trying to say is yes there will always definitely be improvements on techniques and sleights but lets be honest here what if no one ever read Erdnase I know many great magicians would have created great ideas but it is this man right here and his book which has stood the test of time ever since then and until now which is how I base my fun and leisure operating and executing this mans great techniques at the card table with flawless execution and ease with these added improvements of course, that are available to us at the moment.
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Oct 31, 2006 09:15AM)
So what I can gather is, the real card cheats (DOC, C. Loubard, tommy, EMVT), are saying you can take any technique from "Expert At The Card Table" and without modification, the methods from the book can be used to cheat? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Oct 31, 2006 10:44AM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-31 10:15, ES Andrews wrote:
So what I can gather is, the real card cheats (DOC, C. Loubard, tommy, EMVT), are saying you can take any technique from "Expert At The Card Table" and without modification, the methods from the book can be used to cheat? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
[/quote]
Of course the moves can be used to cheat. that's not the question.
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Oct 31, 2006 11:40AM)
My original question has been answered, a real card cheat would study Erdnase. It just seems that the original methods taught by Erdnase are not atually being used. For example DOC does not use the push-out method for the bottom deal that is taught in "Expert" but uses the "take" approach. He also uses the Standard Grip instead of the Erdnase grip, and takes with the index finger instead of the third finger. He is not actually using the methods from the book but has seemed to have improved on them immensely. So if the moves are not outdated and they are deceptive why use any other method than those taught in the book?
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Oct 31, 2006 12:06PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-31 12:40, ES Andrews wrote:
So if the moves are not outdated and they are deceptive why use any other method than those taught in the book?

[/quote]

You use what works for you in the games you play. Where you get the moves from and the individual handlings are of no importance. Geeeze. Throw the book away, It will be of no use to you.

Find something you like, that will work for you, and perfect it. Try not to devote more than a couple of hours a day to mental masturbation and spend more time with cards in hand. And get on with your life. The question of the validity of Expert at the Card Table is not that important in the Grand Scheme.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 31, 2006 12:49PM)
[quote]

On 2006-10-31 10:15, ES Andrews wrote:
So what I can gather is, the real card cheats (DOC, C. Loubard, tommy, EMVT), are saying you can take any technique from "Expert At The Card Table" and without modification, the methods from the book can be used to cheat? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[/quote]


I am saying in an informal game. That is game that does not look like a game in a casino, a game where they use no cut card, a game where the players deal themselves and so on, then you could use Erdnase techniques, if you executed them perfectly. They are all beautiful moves when done well.
But you don’t have to use Erdnase techniques. I prefer a different bottom deal for example, it is not better, it’s just different.

What you have to bear in mind with Erdnase, is that in 1902 the only poker game in town was draw poker and it was played in an informal way. You have to have played this game to know what I mean. Back in the 60s and early 70s draw poker was still being played every where in England just like in the Erdnase days. With four or five guys at a table and used more or the Erdnase system to cheat in them game with out a problem.

Now it is quite different. Most poker is Hold’em like games and moreover it is played in a much more formal manner when it’s played for serious money a sort of controlled environment. Almost everywhere they use a dealer, a cut card a set procedure and so on. And so in such games much of Erdnase is obsolete. But it is not obsolete in kitchen table games, if you find them. If Erdnase himself was to arrive at my game tonight as player intending to cheat there would nothing from his book he could apply according to his own advice. He would have throw the book away and have a rethink. The whole dynamics of the game have changed. Ednase at my game would asking himself what do the mean a dealer button and what’s blank card for that put on the bottom the deck, what the ….are these cards made of and why does each dealer shuffle the deck exactly the same way and how could cheat if I had to shuffle the deck the same way and what the ….is this game they are playing anyway. Ok I I have it, I can HOLD out! but wait….

“TO HOLD out in a card game is the riskiest and most dangerous form of taking advantage that a player may attempt, but it can be, and is, successfully practiced when cleverly performed and the player is not suspected. But the only hold out that we consider really safe is made by the dealer, and but for the moment of cutting. After a blind shuffle, with the desired cards on the bottom, the dealer palms in the left and passes the deck with the right to be cut.”

At this point he would be asking where he could find a game of draw and I would asking where had been for the last hundred years. :)
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Oct 31, 2006 01:05PM)
If all you want is the "best" moves to learn to cheat with, you will have to consult an expert.

You have obviously decided against becoming one, since you are willing to let someone else circumscribe your learning.

If you just want a few good moves to get the money, it really doesn't matter what you learn. You just need to get really good at the few moves you do.
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Oct 31, 2006 01:07PM)
[quote]
You use what works for you in the games you play. Where you get the moves from and the individual handlings are of no importance. Geeeze. Throw the book away, It will be of no use to you.
[/quote]

Vandy, that's what I was trying to get at in my original question. Do you think you should take the best moves from the book and never read it again? The card hustlers on the board seem to think it is a book worth studying.

I apologise if I'm asking stupid questions, I'm just trying to learn from people on this board and I appreciate everyone's input.

Am I overanalyzing?

Posted: Oct 31, 2006 2:22pm
Quote:

On 2006-10-31 14:05, Whit Haydn wrote:
If all you want is the "best" moves to learn to cheat with, you will have to consult an expert.

Whit, that's why I'm asking questions on this forum, I know that there is experts that post here and I trust their opinion.
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Oct 31, 2006 01:41PM)
The point is, that experts always go to the original sources and try to learn as much as they can from that--to try to discover what others may have missed.

No one today really "knows" Erdnase. We only have the opinions of those who have spent a great deal of time studying him. To become an expert at anything, you need to study the original sources and try to "understand" the work.

An expert doesn't try to learn just the best methods--he learns all the methods.

Otherwise, he won't ever be an expert.

A proficient card cheat doesn't need to be an expert. He only needs to be able to do a few things well.

If you want to be an expert, you need to study Erdnase and many other books.

To be a card cheat, you only need to get someone to show you a few moves that can get the money, and then work only in company that is not very fast--or at least slower than you.

If you want other people to tell you what to spend time on, then you will never be anything like an expert--just a practice monkey.
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Oct 31, 2006 01:48PM)
Thanks for the advice Whit, I really appreciate your opinion. I think I maybe overanalyzing things too much.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Oct 31, 2006 03:08PM)
I'm sorry for the tone of my last post "ES". I know you are just beginning and are looking for answers. It just seemed to me that you were looking for someone to tell you that "Expert" is useless. I had a long drawn out post about the value of "Expert" blah,blah,blah etc,etc. But I said to myself "why bother".

The bottom line on the book is this. It has contains things of great value, both in card handling and advise for cheating and presenting magic. But it's not an easy read, much like reading Shakespeare for the first time, it dosen't always sink in right away. I have read and re-read and re-read parts of the book many times. It dosen't always give up it's gems easily.

Whit said;

"If you want to be an expert, you need to study Erdnase and many other books.

To be a card cheat, you only need to get someone to show you a few moves that can get the money, and then work only in company that is not very fast--or at least slower than you."

This is brilliant.

You have stated outright on this forum that you are trying to learn techniques in order to steal peoples money at the card table. Fine. God Bless You. But that's why I said throw your copy of Erdnase away. If all you want to do is cheat, you don't need all that stuff. It can't hurt, but if all you want to do is steal money from people, you don't need 17 bottom deals, 37 second deals, 2 center deals and 43 cold deck moves. You just don't, you need to learn what you can do in the game/environment that you play in.

Tiger Woods learned to play golf backwards. Golf is played from Tee to Green. But Tiger learned backwards, he learned to putt,then chip, then play his irons and then drive the ball. Examine the situation you will be playing in. Venue, Opponents, Game. And work backwards. If I were going to cheat people, that's how I'd do it.

P.S. As far as Mr Ortizs comments on the book. He's right, of course, in many of his observations. But he also choose to annotate and re-publish the book with his notes. I think that says plenty about how he feels about the book. I'm certain that if he thought it was junk, he wouldn't have bothered to do the tremendous amount of work required to put it together.

P.P.S. And remember, it's not enough to be able to do it. You gotta be able to do at 8:15 PM, Saturday Night, at Madison Square Garden.
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Oct 31, 2006 03:43PM)
Thanks for the response Vandy, I appreciate it.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I think "The Expert At The Card Table" is useless, I just wanted to know what the real card cheats thought about it.

As you and Whit point out, if all you want to do is cheat at cards there is no point learning a lot of moves when just a few will suffice.

That's why I'm asking a lot of questions to the people on this forum. I'm trying to streamline my practice time to the moves that will get the money.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Oct 31, 2006 04:00PM)
I appreciate that "ES". And I also understand where you are coming from. Just remember; Internet forums are fun, and you can learn alot. But to what extent ANYONE on this fourm can help you get the money in YOUR game is negligible.

There are a lot of great card handlers and stuff here. And they can help you learn moves, and all that. They can offer fine points on card technique. And offer you their experiences. But that's it. They can't handle the cards for you or sit at the table for you. I have no idea where you play or who you play with. I have no idea if you play with the same people over and over again, or if you are able to find new people to play with. [b]Bottom line is, figure out what would work in YOUR game and start to work on the one or two moves that you think will fly at that game.[/b] If you think there is a way to get the money using a second deal, find a second deal that you like and perfect it. If it's bottom dealing, do that. Whatever.

Sorry for rambling. I'm done. I don't have anything more to say about because it's all been said before. Half the people here will tell I'm full of crap. Maybe more than half, maybe all of them. I don't care. I'm done with it and I don't cheat. I believe that very few people here actually move in games. Sorry if this post seems harsh as well, it's not meant to be.

So good luck to you. Go forth and... Just go forth and do whatever you want to do.
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Oct 31, 2006 04:21PM)
Once again Vandy, thank you very much for your advice.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Oct 31, 2006 04:27PM)
Take it for what it's worth. When it comes to free advice, you get what you pay for. LOL!
Message: Posted by: C. Loubard (Oct 31, 2006 08:39PM)
I believe Vandy and Whit have made some exceptional points. You do not need myriad moves to "get the money."

Ironically, a friend (hustler) and I were discussing this very thing. If something is working for you why spend more time with other sleights. Instead, continue to hone what you already know. Sure, continue to learn other sleights, but don't diregard what you already know. If what you know gets the money then it obviously works... Wow! what I just wrote sounds self-contradicting, however I will leave it in.

E.S., Please don't get caught up with different grips. Players don't care how you hold the cards. Watch the dealers in any of the games on television and you will notice most hold the deck in the "mechanics" grip, some in the "standard" grip and still others in the "straddle" grip. I have also seen one hold the deck in what seemed to be a modified Erdnase, As Mr. Ortiz describes it. And, others yet in a straddle grip... Right Tommy? I, myself, use the mechanics grip and have never been called on it.

I believe you are trying to find the holy grail of cheating. The reality is, it doesn't exist. You have to use what's right for you. Yes, you should have a foundation on which to build upon. EATCT, at the very least, will give you ideas.

Tommy, I would argue with your point about there being nothing in Erdnase's book that couldn't be used today... The second deal comes to mind right away. Of course, I am sure it was just an oversight.

C. Loubard
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Oct 31, 2006 08:47PM)
Doc I liked what you said. you make a lot of sense. in my opinion there is a difference in the mindset of a hustler and a non hustler. in my opinion some of these people don't even know what this is all about. Doc I wonder what you think about people taking dice moves and card moves(cold deck, 2nd and bottom deals etc) and putting this on tv and pulling everybodys coat about it?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Oct 31, 2006 08:47PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-31 14:07, ES Andrews wrote:
The card hustlers on the board seem to think it is a book worth studying.
[/quote]

Who would "they" be?
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Oct 31, 2006 08:50PM)
Doc I am a street hustler. I don't think a lot of people here like me because of that. but I always say there are only 2 kinds of people in the world and that's slicks and tricks and they don't like one another like a lion and a deer they are natural enemies. but this isn't what I want to talk about. what I want to talk about is doc I take my hat off to you and all the other hustlers out here.
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Oct 31, 2006 09:35PM)
Mr. Z, "they" seem to be DOC, C. Loubard, tommy, and EMVT.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Oct 31, 2006 10:13PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-31 22:35, ES Andrews wrote:
Mr. Z, "they" seem to be DOC, C. Loubard, tommy, and EMVT.
[/quote]

That's quite the lot...
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 31, 2006 11:35PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-31 21:39, C. Loubard wrote:


Tommy, I would argue with your point about there being nothing in Erdnase's book that couldn't be used today... The second deal comes to mind right away. Of course, I am sure it was just an oversight.

C. Loubard


[/quote]

I did make the point that you would argue with.

At my games we have dealers like in a casino. What I said was, if Erdnase arrived as a "player" at my game…..

So he would not be able deal a second or do anything else from his book. Except maybe hold out, which he himself advises not to do from that none dealer position. Erdnase would have to get a job from me dealing to do anything. Erdnase does not mention the use of a card. Erdnase makes no mention of a casino procedure shuffle. I don’t think he mentions a fixed dealer. All these things are standard in poker now when you play serious money but they were not in his day.




“Advantages without dexterity can be taken in almost any card game when two or more players are in collusion, by the use of any secret code of signals that will disclose the hand of each to the others. For instance, in Poker the ally holding the best cards will be the only one to stay, thus playing the best hand of the allies against the rest; quite sufficient advantage to give a large percentage in favor of the combination. Again, the allies may resort to "crossfiring," by each raising until the other players drop out. There are hundreds of small but ultimately certain advantages to be gained in this manner, if collusion is not suspected. No single player can defeat a combination, even when the cards are not manipulated.”

-Erdnase-

If that is true then why mess about in penny ante kitchen table games today risking getting shot using dexterity with the cards when you can use advantages without dexterity using collusion in big games. To answer my own question: The only problem with collusion today is you will certainly be playing against other collusion crews in high stakes games. That is what most pros use today.
Message: Posted by: C. Loubard (Nov 1, 2006 01:50AM)
Tommy, you are right... I apologize. Obviously, I glazed over your post and didn't read it correctly. Again, my apolgies... Another fine example of someone not paying attention to what they read.

C. Loubard
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 1, 2006 02:54AM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-31 21:50, memph33777 wrote:
Doc I am a street hustler. I don't think a lot of people here like me because of that. but I always say there are only 2 kinds of people in the world and that's slicks and tricks and they don't like one another like a lion and a deer they are natural enemies.
[/quote]
Hey Memph what's up? To answer your question and to be honest with you I don't think they like you either. Why? Our street language and our mind set.

When I first came to the Internet at CNC and the Card Shark site I spoke as you speak now and I got kicked out (not the CNC site) because I voiced my opinion and even though correct, it was the attitude and the way in which I spoke to the forum members that was out right wrong and rude. This is where my new teacher Mr. Glenn Bishop came to my rescue, he seemed to know the problem, not at first but with persistence helped me by calming my street side attitude down of which you now have.

I know that you're cool people and all that and that you'd like to help but they don't understand our street scum of the earth-like attitude in which we have to have in order to stay alert and and to survive on the street. They're looking for a magician like quality or attitude when they speak to us and because we're from the street, we're not having it. If you've ever read the thread "Would A Real Cheat Write This?" you will see a 27 page long thread with a lot of my stuff edited because of my attitude and speech and this is after I calmed down. The last count of the people who was reading about my life experiences was 27,000 when they eventually locked it.

Memph there's nothing wrong with you partner, they just haven't been there like you or I so they really don't understand, so what you have to do is calm yourself down and re-read your post more than one or two times before submitting it while picturing yourself talking to some real young kids and then rephrase your writing. The hustlers and street people here understand that we mean no harm in the way we speak but it's the others that don't understand and this is who you feel doesn't like you.

Oh one more thing, when Jesus Our Lord spoke of the reality in his time the sophisticated said that he was disturbing the peace and ruffling people's feathers in which he was guilty of but He spoke the truth. Now if the people didn't like God who spoke eloquently and firm definitely they are not going to like the way you speak, in other words, you should just tone it down a bit for them.

Respectfully,

Your Friend and Partner in Crime

Doc

P.S. To the readers, you have to experience and know this stuff in order to know how to teach it and how to help others who have this problem. Memph will be alright in his own time and if not we should just accept him as he is, because he actually needs this kind of mentality in order to survive on the streets.

I can't understand them, they want to know the real stuff and the mentality of Erdnase and when the real deal comes along and confronts them they scream bloody murder.

One


Posted: Nov 1, 2006 4:34am
------------------------------------------------
[quote]
On 2006-10-31 21:47, memph33777 wrote:
Doc I wonder what you think about people taking dice moves and card moves (cold deck, 2nd and bottom deals etc) and putting this on tv and pulling everybodys coat about it?
[/quote]
Memph I agree and I disagree with it. Why? Me and you both know that we are not to awake the sleeping but then again why are you and I at these sites? We're trying to get all the info. that's necessary in order for us to be the best that we can be and not get caught while in the process.

Why I posted my videos?

One reason is to manipulate various situations for the benefit of myself being that the internet is world wide.

Another reason was to help you on your control dice shots. You didn't believe I was for real and even though you talked down to me after I wrote you back stating "no disrespect to you:, inside I really understood what you were saying and didn't retaliate as I would have normally done. Sometimes silence is golden and you see, we're friends now.

I know that the rest of these people (suckers) care nothing about the control shooting videos except for a real player. If you think that I'm lying look at how many people saw it and commented on the video compared to the Cold Deck and 3 Card Monte videos.

The main reason why I posted my videos is because the black man is never given credit for what he can do and what we have accomplished in life and even though as you know it, we robbed many of the white guys that you see on TV why is it that they are always given the credit of coming up with the ideas and inventions and we know it's not so. We just don't have access to publicly showing our knowledge and perspective on things therefore our knowledge and stories die with our teachers with no one to remember us nor them.

Oh there is the fact that on my road up to meet my idol I showed a lot of these here famous guys at this site some things and I didn't want them to put my stuff and inventions out as theirs due to the fact that no one would have known me. Everybody wanted me to be UNKNOWN to the world but I saw through that bull****. I might be dumb but I'm definitely not stupid.

You see, these here magicians want quick fame and the quickest way to get there for them is to do gambling demonstrations. There are thousands of broke magicians in Vegas because they are just magicians but when they say that they are gamblers and do our moves, doors open up immediately and this is their ticket to the big times.

Memph my manipulation almost worked, I told them previously that there was a method to my madness and I almost got a movie deal with other ones in the making. You can read about this incident in the thread "The Real Hustle."


Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Nov 1, 2006 08:16PM)
Doc your skills are definitely good enough to get a movie deal. maybe you should contact denzel or somebody about doing a movie. they probaly will let somebody else do the acting but use your hands or your moves. doc in my opiinion scarne, garcia, and all those guys they got their game from street hustles then they went and sold it and probaly made millions. I am not a racist but this has went on for the longest. colonel sanders never fried a piece of chicken in his life, he probaly had some old black lady cooking for him and since he had the snaps(money) he made the money. its another case of a man with technology going to africa and finding a diamond big as a grapefruit. the only reason he found the diamond is because he had the money and technology to dig. you have guys in the hood who can shoot pool as good as minnesota fats, better with dice and cards than scarne and garcia but if you r black or poor or black and poor your chances of getting there r diminished. doc you are good very good. I hope you make a million one day with your game. all you have to do is find the right vic. I made 50k one time in 1 day and I played for mine. I am not a drug dealer or a robber. much success to you doc.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 2, 2006 03:14AM)
"All you have to do is find the right vic." That's dead right! But don't skin him, just sheer him, it's much more profitable in the long run.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 2, 2006 12:08PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-31 14:05, Whit Haydn wrote:
If all you want is the "best" moves to learn to cheat with, you will have to consult an expert.

You have obviously decided against becoming one, since you are willing to let someone else circumscribe your learning.

If you just want a few good moves to get the money, it really doesn't matter what you learn. You just need to get really good at the few moves you do.
[/quote]

Which was my long answer thanks Whit.

I would also like to say that I think there are far fewer actual "card hustlers" here than the poster may think. I am absolutly not one of them. I have been around them, may know one or two things at most, but am not near an expert. But from a lot of what I read there are not too many actual "street hustlers" here or casino cheats. I don't say this is bad, I don't say this is good or indifferent, just that it is.
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Nov 2, 2006 01:55PM)
[quote]
On 2006-11-02 13:08, Dannydoyle wrote:
I would also like to say that I think there are far fewer actual "card hustlers" here than the poster may think.
[/quote]

Danny, I may come across as naive, but I don't believe everything I read on this forum.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 2, 2006 08:00PM)
Nobody said you did. Still does not change my statement.
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Nov 3, 2006 07:59PM)
Well as docs teacher told scarne the coat tail puller I am a street hustler and this is how I make my money so now yall go tell that you snitchers ! lol
Message: Posted by: ES Andrews (Nov 3, 2006 08:11PM)
Memph33777, I'm glad you're here, I'm sure you're going to be as helpful as DOC.
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Nov 8, 2006 08:36PM)
Doc I want to ask you a question. I have a friend of mine we went to elementary school together. I didn't see him for some years and they next time I saw him we were going to prison together. doc you know I am crazy and when we got to prison there were gangs and 1 of the gang members skipped me in the chow line and I skipped him back and when I got back to the unit they were waiting to jump me. I had to walk down a narrow hall to get back to my cell so I told this guy to go look in my cell and get me a shank. well I have a machete and several shanks in my cell and they guy came back with the wrong shank and I sent him back to get another shank. when the gangmembers saw I was strapped they let me be. later they came to my cell and gathered outside talking trash and I just layed in my bunk with a big knife. a guy came by and told them they had better leave me and my friend along because we were killers and they were gonna get messed up messing with us. well me and dude went through a lot together. now I am still a hustler and he likes to work these punk jobs like $8 a hour. he and his girl are buying a house like lease purchase but I have bought several houses etc. he has seen me break vics for $1,000 at the gas station. but he wont hustle, I cant understand it. he likes to rake leaves, cut grass, change oil any petty thing he can think of but he wont hustle. I cant understand why. he aint sanctified. I don't trust him no more. I think he is a sucker now. he deals with suckers. he went to jail about a month ago and he was there for 2 weeks for driving on suspended license. I could have got him out it only cost $175 but I said let them squares get him out since he likes squares so much. what do you think doc? do you think players and suckers can be friends? this guy use to be a hustler, well he was a paper hanger, credit card worker and a burglar. the judge did tell him one time if he came back to the habitual offender courtroom again he would give him 9,999 days. give me feedback.
memphis jay
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 9, 2006 06:49AM)
Shouldn’t these fairy tales have a happy ending and contain fairies, goblins, elves, trolls, giants, talking animals and stuff like that.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 9, 2006 01:40PM)
Hey memph thanks for writing.

Do I think that players and suckers can be friends?

Yes why not? To me (not to others) a sucker is a person who’s not knowledgeable about the con in which is done on him; most likely this person is driven by greed (wanting something for nothing). It is to my conclusion by this definition we are all suckers to something.

Just yesterday I was conned by Sprint and I can’t do anything about it. I was told that in order to get my deposit back I had to call Sprint prior to the month that I signed up for it in order for them to send me my $250.00 back. I did, they said something like they had to get it approved and that they will send me my money in a couple of days. It was approved (they told me this later on) and being that it took so long for it to come my bill came while I was waiting, they took my money instead and placed it on my phone bill. I could have understood it if they took the bill portion and sent me the rest of it but they didn’t.

Being that I went over my minutes because I lowered my plan they told me that an extra $5.00 would be added to each additional 50 mins. I use. I said okay. I go over my minutes to find out it’s really not 50 min. it’s 30 mins. and after 750 min. they would charge me 20 cents a min. for each additional call. They never told me this…the only thing that they told me was that I would pay $5.00 extra for each additional 50 min. They robbed me and I can’t do anything about it. I guess as they say “everybody’s got to eat.”

When the public complain about how they are being ripped off by these phone companies and the phone company has to pay, guess who they pay? Not the customers who they ripped off, they pay the government instead who are the biggest con men of all.

Note: While reading “The American Confidence Man” and seeing how these cons have infiltrated 99% of the big business’ it’s only at matter of time before any of us be conned by something that we know nothing about. You pay when you don’t know.

Who’s Really A Sucker?

Hustling means that you’re not working for the man, in other words, you are your own boss. So by this definition he is still working for him self but in a different capacity.

I see people on the street everyday here in the city (NYC) selling all kinds of stuff from DVD’s to cigarettes. You think that I would stoop this low to do that? Hell no, but in all actuality it depends on the mentality of the person hustling. The truth is, something is better than nothing and who am I to look down on another person’s hustle when others might just be looking down on mine. The ONLY REASON a person should look down on someone else is to help them up off of the ground.

A Playa To Another Playa

You know there’s a saying in the street it goes “why do you think that you have all the sense” meaning to the layman here, why do you think that you know everything and no one else don’t know jack.

In “The School Of Hard Knocks” we’re constantly learning new stuff everyday especially at the Gambling Spot where all the hustlers that do any and everything meet up daily to talk and hustle each other. Memph, I learn from you just like I learn from everyone else here that has info. to give/teach; this makes me well rounded in all areas. This is what a confidence man does.

You write that the judge told your friend that if he comes back to the habitual courtroom that he was going to get 9,999 days, which I calculate to be almost 28 years in jail. Wouldn’t you change your hustle too? Either he’s going to work in jail for about $75 cents a day and can’t get no cooty cat and have nigga’s chasing him around the jail cell all day or he’s going to work on the streets and get $8 an hour and get all the cooty cat that he wants or can buy. I choose the way he chose besides if you’re still pimping just have one of your girls go over and proposition him so that the money he do make will be yours.

Think About It

If your friend didn’t choose his way he would really be a sucker especially after you come to your senses and think about it logically. Imagine him trying to impress you and get caught and go back to jail for 28 years and then when you think about it later on in life, you say to yourself that you were wrong. He’s the one that would still be paying for it being locked up in jail. Why do you think criminals are snitching like it’s legal on others nowadays; it’s because the system start you off with football numbers (two digits = 10 or more years) to get you to thinking what’s more important to you; freedom or jail.

A real playa knows in his heart that only he is going to look out for himself in the long run and no one else. You see you left him in jail and it only would have cost you $175 to get him out. His conclusion to me was a correct one, he chose to stay out of jail and survive by any means necessary. He still chooses to hustle, he’s just going to make less than he’s used to but more than he would be (75 cents a day) if he went to jail.

Always remember this…the object of hustling is to be free (stay out of jail) in order to spend the money that you make. It’s been told to me that millionaires who are locked up would give it all away if they could just have their freedom again. All of us take everything for granted and don’t realize how precious something is until we lose it.

For many reasons I still believe that this man is a hustler because even though he knew that his license was suspended his hustler like mentality told him to take the chance to drive without it because the money that he would make would be worth it.

Memph, each of us come to certain realizations at different times in our life and to me he came to the realization that he’d rather spend the rest of his life hustling on the street for little bit of money than hustling for the man making almost no money for 28 years just to please you.

Respectfully,

Your Partner in Crime

Doc
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 9, 2006 09:22PM)
A sucker is someone who is deceived.

The guy, who takes a job, takes a deal, selling his time for a an agreed price. He is not deceived by that, so is not a sucker for doing it.

I have nothing against getting a job and working for someone but I am yet to find anyone that can afford me.

A bum who does no work and pays no tax and is an idiot if he can get himself a job and get of the floor or hustle.

A Hustler is a bit of a broad term but, my view is, it’s someone who lives by his wits, and not necessarily by breaking the law.….. Some of the most successful Hustles are executed within the law.
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Nov 9, 2006 11:23PM)
I didn't read this whole thread but I've met many poker players who cared nothing about magic who did read and know the material relating to card play and cheating in Erdnase.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 10, 2006 02:49AM)
[quote]
On 2006-11-09 22:22, tommy wrote:
A sucker is someone who is deceived. The guy who takes a deal.
[/quote]

I'm a sucker because I took the Sprint deal. I was trying to get something for nothing at an agreed price and was deceived.

[quote]
A Hustler is a bit of a broad term but, my view is, it’s someone who lives by his wits, and not necessarily by breaking the law.….. Some of the most successful Hustles are executed within the law.
[/quote]

I totally agree.

Hustling From The Spiritual Side

On a spiritual note for those who believe in God, 99.9% of the world are suckers (deceived) because God is trying to tell us what's going on behind the scenes (Eph 6:11, 12) and we won't listen. I guess this is why He says that "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, because thou hast rejected knowledge I will also reject thee (Hos 4:6)." This is why street (Sol's/Solomon's) knowledge is absolutely necessary besides school and bible knowledge; it makes us more well rounded.

The reason why I believe most of us are here at the Gambling Spot is because we need "to study (whatever we want to learn) to show ourselves approved...rightly dividing the word of truth (which moves are good and which ones are not)." (2 Tim 2:15).

Doc do you really believe this mess that you're talking about?

Yes, this is the reason why I tried to excel in my area because of studying and reading the scriptures. "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work...nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest," (Eccl. 9:10) in other words, be the best that you can be at whataever you're going to do before you die.

Ya'll see that a lot of the knowledge that we hustler's (Sol's) have come directly from (the books of) Solomon the wisest man in the world. Note: For those of you who don't know anything about Solomon he was a Christian (a black man) who turned street, meaning he partied, had ***s/wives galore and did everything he wanted to do all his life and at the end changed back and wrote his books of wisdom about everything he experienced while living the life of a sinner or on the streets; the predicament I'm in.

[quote]
On 2006-10-31 21:50, memph33777 wrote:
I always say there are only 2 kinds of people in the world and that's slicks and tricks and they don't like one another like a lion and a deer they are natural enemies.
[/quote]

Memph in this world we are the vic(s)/tricks and the Devil and his demons are the slicks/conmen and they don't like us just as you said. We are his natural enemy but he's the lion (1 Pet 5:8) and we are the deer. He doesn't like anything that Christ like, even the animals. He wants to kill us but he can't come right out and do it so he deceives us into all kinds of things so that we can eventually get killed, kill ourselves by eating foods that are not good for us, drinking alcoholic beverages to distort our minds, smoking whatever makes you happy, fornicating, adultery...whatever our vices are. God in the process is trying to tell us through his book the bible don't fall for the con, trust me and take hold of me because you can't beat the him on your own, he's just too good; this is why we need a Saviour.

We hustlers also know that sometimes it's not what (skills) you know, it's who you know or who you can count on in the end that will help/save your butt.


Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: memph33777 (Nov 10, 2006 04:15AM)
Doc I was thinking to myself tonight what shall it profit me if I gain the whole world but lose my soul.99.9% of the world are suckers and I am a sucker also. I am a sucker because if I hustle for a billion dollars I cant take it with me and I got to stand before God one day. but I feel that I am a slick in this also because I plan to leave this hustling alone one day. most of my vics I beat them for $500-$1,000. There was a time when a $1,000 was a lot of money to me but now it is nothing. Doc they told me when I was a young pimp that adam was the 1st trick, eve was the first hoe and the devil was the 1st pimp. This is true because if you are doing wrong you are hoeing for the devil. he is pimping all wrong doers and in the end if you don't get yourself right with God you go to hell. I guess I just want to accomplish my goals before I die. Doc I am a loner and I believe you are a loner also. Sometimes loners like things not people, they are introverted as I am. Maybe that's why God allows us to be successful in what we do. He knows we don't mean anybody any harm but as they say "everybody needs somebody or something to love" and if you don't have anybody to love you will love something. Concerning my friend back in the day he was a burglar etc. he has a old broad and she be telling him if he hustle with me he is going to get in trouble etc. I think he is just a sucker because the hustle we do is smooth playing, not selling dope or robbing or anything like that. Doc there is a old saying"If it has been done then I can do it", I feel like I am just as smart as any other sob and I want to knock off a million. so when I am gone they will say Jay was a bad mother! He was a world class playa. I have had a interesting life. I have hustled in the apple dapple, pimped in vegas and hollywood, broke vics in d.c.. I just thank God I am still alive. I have been ran over, shot, been to federal and state prison. And still here to tell about it. Praise God and God bless yall

Memphis Jay