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Topic: Tragic Restaurant Tale
Message: Posted by: magicmanci15 (Jan 24, 2007 09:26PM)
I was working at a place last month, but I was somehow replaced by a more "qualified" magician. The fault was mine however. When I got the job, I unwillingly promised, or guarenteed them that if they hired me on a slower night, Wedensday, that their business will also increase. I had no way of backing that statement up, and consequently as soon as a guy came in that's been performing for 20 years, with a mailing list to back up his promises, I was told that it wasnt working out. *** that hurt. Now this is still questionable, but I was pretty muched snaked out of a sweet deal. I cant do anything but learn from it. So Ive been restaurantless for about 2 months, but I have a few appointments lined up this week. I also have a free trial night next Friday night at an Uno's Chicago Grill, which I think will go well. Bottom line: don't make promises you cant keep.

Ivan
Message: Posted by: Skip Way (Jan 24, 2007 09:40PM)
Good lesson to learn. Few magicians are capable for increasing patronage on a consistent basis...if at all. Our specialty is enhancing a memorable dining experience. Good luck on your hunt!
Message: Posted by: mrunge (Jan 24, 2007 09:48PM)
Sorry it didn't work out...this time. Sometimes these things happen. I'm a believer that things happen for a reason and something better is around the corner.

Sounds like you've learned something from this experience and are not letting this setback stop you in your tracks. Keep your head up and keep trying.

Things will work out as they are supposed to. Just hang in there.

Mark. :thumbsup:
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Jan 24, 2007 10:07PM)
I sell the idea that as a magician I can fill the time between ordering and the arrival of orders and also to keep delays from being noted. A mailing list can increase business but like you learned you just can't do it as a magician. Your job is to entertain the folks there not to bring 'em in, that is the restaurants job. I know this is old hat but look into getting the Live From the Jailhouse dvd then try to track down Magic Menu books and Kirk Charles book. Carl Andrews put out some great material as well. Don't worry about it and move on, you keep at it. By the way, a big boo to the guy who back doored you. He now has no room to complain if someone does him in the same way for a job.
Message: Posted by: RicHeka (Jan 24, 2007 10:29PM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-24 22:26, magicmanci15 wrote:
I was working at a place last month, but I was somehow replaced by a more "qualified" magician. The fault was mine however. When I got the job, I unwillingly promised, or guarenteed them that if they hired me on a slower night, Wedensday, that their business will also increase. I had no way of backing that statement up, and consequently as soon as a guy came in that's been performing for 20 years, with a mailing list to back up his promises, I was told that it wasnt working out. *** that hurt. Now this is still questionable, but I was pretty muched snaked out of a sweet deal. I cant do anything but learn from it. So Ive been restaurantless for about 2 months, but I have a few appointments lined up this week. I also have a free trial night next Friday night at an Uno's Chicago Grill, which I think will go well. Bottom line: don't make promises you cant keep.

Ivan
[/quote]

Long live Danny Doyle...[I paraphrase]'If you tell them you will increase their biz...your day's are numbered'...

Rich
Message: Posted by: Eddie Torres (Jan 25, 2007 02:53AM)
Having a magician at a restaurant can be a decent way for them to increase business IF they advertise the fact that they have that magician there. If no one knows, nothing's gonna happen. Concerning the magician they got to replace you... what a jerk, what happened to honor among thie.. er magicians? Maybe he didn't know there was already a magician there, though. Live and learn... Best of Luck!
Message: Posted by: Kent Wong (Jan 25, 2007 09:39AM)
Hmm... Majikabra rasies the same ethical issue that was going through my mind. If a person realizes that a restaurant has already hired a magician to entertain its guests, is it right for that person to solicit the restaurant? For me, I would never do such a thing.

Kent
Message: Posted by: RobertBloor (Jan 25, 2007 09:43AM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 10:39, magicman845 wrote:
Hmm... Majikabra rasies the same ethical issue that was going through my mind. If a person realizes that a restaurant has already hired a magician to entertain its guests, is it right for that person to solicit the restaurant? For me, I would never do such a thing.

Kent
[/quote]

Of course it is. If you're a professional business person, competition is part of life.

I just can't get over this thought process that if another guy has a gig it's all of the sudden fruit of the forbidden tree.

Robert
Message: Posted by: RicHeka (Jan 25, 2007 10:26AM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 10:43, RobertBloor wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 10:39, magicman845 wrote:
Hmm... Majikabra rasies the same ethical issue that was going through my mind. If a person realizes that a restaurant has already hired a magician to entertain its guests, is it right for that person to solicit the restaurant? For me, I would never do such a thing.

Kent
[/quote]

Of course it is. If you're a professional business person, competition is part of life.

I just can't get over this thought process that if another guy has a gig it's all of the sudden fruit of the forbidden tree.

Robert
[/quote]

Robert you are entitled to your view,but I agree wholeheartedly with Kent.For me it's a matter of professional ethic's.

One should develope their performance to the degree that it becomes the talk of the town...then if the owner/GM here's about how wonderful you are,they can make their own decision to bring you in.That's competition!
Until then get your own Gig!

Rich
Message: Posted by: MAKMagic (Jan 25, 2007 10:47AM)
I tend to agree with Rich here. And while what you say may not be off from a competitor perspective. If I showed up to all your booked customers and undercut you by even price alone, you'd consider that to be wrong. Ethics plays a big role in competetion as well. If you thought that me undercutting you was just buisness and good competition, what would you say to em walking in and telling your custmers that your hack and that they'll more than get their monies worth with me much more than with you. Now I'm not only stealing your gig, but I'm putting bad word of mouth about you. Technically, that's part of competition, as I ended up with the gig and you didn't. See the difference?
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jan 25, 2007 10:49AM)
Interesting thought process Robert, but I, respectfully, disagree with you. Anyone who does what we do should know how difficult it is to land a regular restaurant/bar/club gig. The first person there did all the leg work by convincing the owner/manager that this would work for the restaurant. There are houndreds of threads on here talking about product thievery and the underhandedness of someone taking an idea that someone else put so much time and effort into creating and marketing someone else's idea. I don't see the difference between what this magician did and, for example, what the marketers of (insert your favorite ripped off product here) ___________.
I'm not saying I'm right and you are wrong. My opinion is that I would never approach a restaurant that already had a magician working there. And I find it difficult to believe that he wouldn't know one was working there already. I would imagine that would have been one of the first things out of the owner/manager's mouth when approached by the second magician.
I don't think we should look at this in the same way we look at a liquor distributor approaching the owner and trying to get his product in the establishment versus his competitor's. The EASIEST way to replace the competition in business is by lowering the price of the product. I don't think any of us would like the end result of that competition. We would all be working for a lot less than we are now....or decide it isn't worth the cost and give it up. I could be wrong....I've been wrong before.

By the way....what has happened to Danny Doyle...I haven't seen any posts by him in a while?
Patrick Flanagan
Message: Posted by: ralphdean (Jan 25, 2007 10:51AM)
I have no problem with compitition up to the sale, but after the sale that is something else. He may be a better magician but he should plow his own field.

It is similar to hearing that someone has hired a magician for a BD. You find out they are paying $200 and you tell them you can do the show for $100 and take the show away.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Jan 25, 2007 11:01AM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 11:49, patrick flanagan wrote:
By the way....what has happened to Danny Doyle...I haven't seen any posts by him in a while?
[/quote]

Danny tends to speak his mind. If you can put 2 and 2 together it shouldn't be too hard to figure out why he hasn't been posting here lately. :comply:
Message: Posted by: Danny Diamond (Jan 25, 2007 11:14AM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 12:01, Vandy Grift wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 11:49, patrick flanagan wrote:
By the way....what has happened to Danny Doyle...I haven't seen any posts by him in a while?
[/quote]

Danny tends to speak his mind. If you can put 2 and 2 together it shouldn't be too hard to figure out why he hasn't been posting here lately. :comply:
[/quote]

So, you get banned for speaking your mind here? Hmm.

Danny Doyle WAS harsh at times, but I think his intentions were good. If you could handle the abrasiveness and bluntness, he quite often had valuable real world advice and thoughts.
Message: Posted by: MAKMagic (Jan 25, 2007 11:15AM)
Danny Diamond is Doyle's counter personality
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Jan 25, 2007 11:27AM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 12:14, Danny Diamond wrote:
So, you get banned for speaking your mind here? Hmm.

[/quote]

Banned? I never said the word banned. Where did I use the word banned? It's against the rules to mention banned members. LOL!
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jan 25, 2007 11:34AM)
Wow...Danny got banned?? Interesting...Most times, he was the BLUNT voice of reason that a forum like this needs. I hope this isn't true...if it is I might re-think my involvement here. Sorry for getting off topic. Maybe, material for a new thread.
Patrick Flanagan
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Jan 25, 2007 11:40AM)
Who said banned? I never said banned. Those are your words, not mine. You trying to get me in trouble? :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Danny Diamond (Jan 25, 2007 12:01PM)
Oops, I didn't realize it was against the rules to speak of those who are no longer welcome here. Will I be the next one exiled now? If so, I will work with DDoyle to try to get the banned back together!
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jan 25, 2007 12:05PM)
Banned???....ooops...typo....meant blanned...or is it bland....which this forum might become if opinions are tempered.
Seriously, how many times have we heard, read, etc. that one of the problems in our art is that magicians don't tell the truth regarding other's performances. Everything is great....nah, you didn't flash that pass...nah, I couldn't see that steal from the back row... How many times have we heard, read, etc. (oh, I'm thinking writings from Mr. Swiss, Mr. Maven, Mr. Close, Mr. Wonder, etc.) that it is wrong NOT to CONSTRUCTIVELY criticize a friend's performance. That is how we are able to improve. The opinions of Danny Doyle, while harsh and direct, were refreshing and insightful. And if he wasn't banned, blanned, blained, then disregard my ramblings.
Patrick Flanagan
Message: Posted by: rikbrooks (Jan 25, 2007 12:24PM)
You can be refreshing and insightful without being blunt. I may be an old Southern Gentlemand but there is never an excuse for rudeness.
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jan 25, 2007 12:47PM)
Different strokes for different folks. I'm sure geography has something to do with approach. Rudeness in Chicago may not be the same as in Austin. I've been in distribution management for 25 years, and not everyone receives a message the same. Some need coddling...some need to be hit over the head. I've read hundreds of his postings, and if someone's feelings were hurt by his comments....I'd hate to see how they would respond to performing in a bar full of opinionated people enhanced by alcohol.
Patrick Flanagan
Message: Posted by: jakeg (Jan 25, 2007 12:53PM)
I think that it depends on whether you are looking at magic as a business or as a fraternity. If it's a business, there are no restrictions. All businesses compete with one another. Cureaid competes with Bandaid ... If it's a fraternity, then you have to set some rules for yourself and hope that other magicians feel the same way.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Jan 25, 2007 01:19PM)
I'm sure he will be back someday.

Even if they did do that thing that I'm not saying that they did do...The person who has had that done to them usually gets to come back after a time.

Maybe he'll come back the way McMurphy came back to the ward for the last time in "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest". All calm and docile and lobotomized. Nice and passive, just the way Nurse Ratched likes it. LOL!
Message: Posted by: Nash (Jan 25, 2007 01:24PM)
I will never approach a restaurant with an established ENTERTAINER.
be it band, pianist, clowns, mimes... You just don't do that to your fellow entertainers.
I'm a victim of one such unfortunate circumstances... some new guy in town offered to work for free at my restaurant, the owner didn't even tell me.
What crappy world we live in huh?
Message: Posted by: magicmanci15 (Jan 25, 2007 03:17PM)
The guy new that there was a magician there, because I knew him, and told him. He then emailed me and said that he didn't realize that I was that places magician....even though I told him. So theres my second lesson: keep my mouf shut.

Ivan
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Jan 25, 2007 03:38PM)
Yeah, ya gotta be careful. It's a dog eat dog world and as wrong as it is, other magicians will sometimes try to move in on your gig. I've had this happen several times to me.
Message: Posted by: The Amazing Noobini (Jan 25, 2007 04:51PM)
Outside of this forum and various DVDs that mention this phenomena, I have never heard of magicians in restaurants. I have been to several restaurants in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, England, Chile, Various Greek and Canary Islands, The States, Holland, France... and probably other places. But I have yet to run into a magician anywhere.

Quite frankly I would probably just leave if I noticed that a restaurant had some sort of table hopping entertainment scheme which disturbed me as I was eating or flirting or whatever. My nightmare has always been the singers that come over and loom over you, serenading while everyone stares at you. The horror. Now I have to include rivaling magicians in my fears.

Sorry. I want everyone to be happy, successful and prosperous but the magician/restaurant combination idea is just very absurd to me.
Message: Posted by: jolyonjenkins (Jan 25, 2007 05:24PM)
The voice of sanity! I too have never come across it on four continents
Message: Posted by: RicHeka (Jan 25, 2007 05:51PM)
My System...which I have used for twenty years...eliminates approaching and possibly bothering guests who do not wish to be bothered. :)

[three of my five restaurants are long term gigs...longest 18 years]

Best.

Rich
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Jan 25, 2007 06:57PM)
Rich,

What is this system of which you speak? I would love to hear more! ;)

Steven
Message: Posted by: Josh Chaikin (Jan 25, 2007 09:39PM)
I really don't have to walk up and solicit anyone that doesn't want to see magic either. The wait staff simply let's the patrons know that I perform upon request, and that keeps me pretty busy. It seems to be working well so far.
Message: Posted by: Eddie Torres (Jan 26, 2007 01:25AM)
Ya, I'm at a theme restaurant and surprises are part of the theme... like magic.


Eddie
Message: Posted by: elmago (Jan 26, 2007 04:17AM)
I have been silent here for a while, but here I go...

Your friend is not a friend. He stole your gig. The manager should have offered YOU to work the other night first. Someone else here posted exactly that. They went from a slow night to a busier one when things did not work out on the slow night.

For the people who say business is business, you are right. In the end, you are right. But look at the damage and the image it sets up. Lets keep undercutting each other until restaurants know they can get it for free. In fact, some "magicians" make that offer to restaurants that have magicians. Lets give managers and owners the idea that we are cutthroat types. This way they can make assumtions that if we do it here, we will do it in the restaurant; Like taking the servers tips, stealing food, etc. Heck, we don't have any ethics in swiping someone elses gig. Why change here?

The only way I see it acceptable is if the manager went out and purposly seeked another magician. If he was already planning on letting the current magician go, then I do not see a problem.

The only comforting thought you may have is that your friends job is also on the line. He will only be there until another magician comes by and undercuts him. You are probably better off not working with a manager who who will do that anyway.

Magicians have approached some of the restaurants I work. I know it because the managers tell me. I know who the magicians are because they leave their promo material. This is after the manager tells them they have a magician and are happy. The manager said that he tried to undercut the price. That was enough to kick him out. He said he would never hire a guy that looked that desparate.

You are right about keeping your mouth shut about where you work. Some magicians are just ruthless like that.

Miguel R.
Message: Posted by: RicHeka (Jan 26, 2007 04:49AM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-26 05:17, elmago wrote:
I have been silent here for a while, but here I go...

Your friend is not a friend. He stole your gig. The manager should have offered YOU to work the other night first. Someone else here posted exactly that. They went from a slow night to a busier one when things did not work out on the slow night.

For the people who say business is business, you are right. In the end, you are right. But look at the damage and the image it sets up. Lets keep undercutting each other until restaurants know they can get it for free. In fact, some "magicians" make that offer to restaurants that have magicians. Lets give managers and owners the idea that we are cutthroat types. This way they can make assumtions that if we do it here, we will do it in the restaurant; Like taking the servers tips, stealing food, etc. Heck, we don't have any ethics in swiping someone elses gig. Why change here?

The only way I see it acceptable is if the manager went out and purposly seeked another magician. If he was already planning on letting the current magician go, then I do not see a problem.

The only comforting thought you may have is that your friends job is also on the line. He will only be there until another magician comes by and undercuts him. You are probably better off not working with a manager who who will do that anyway.

Magicians have approached some of the restaurants I work. I know it because the managers tell me. I know who the magicians are because they leave their promo material. This is after the manager tells them they have a magician and are happy. The manager said that he tried to undercut the price. That was enough to kick him out. He said he would never hire a guy that looked that desparate.

You are right about keeping your mouth shut about where you work. Some magicians are just ruthless like that.

Miguel R.
[/quote]

Well stated Miguel!

Oh..and welcome back.

Best
Rich
Message: Posted by: Nash (Jan 26, 2007 08:11PM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 17:51, The Amazing Noobini wrote:
Outside of this forum and various DVDs that mention this phenomena, I have never heard of magicians in restaurants. I have been to several restaurants in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, England, Chile, Various Greek and Canary Islands, The States, Holland, France... and probably other places. But I have yet to run into a magician anywhere.

Quite frankly I would probably just leave if I noticed that a restaurant had some sort of table hopping entertainment scheme which disturbed me as I was eating or flirting or whatever. My nightmare has always been the singers that come over and loom over you, serenading while everyone stares at you. The horror. Now I have to include rivaling magicians in my fears.

Sorry. I want everyone to be happy, successful and prosperous but the magician/restaurant combination idea is just very absurd to me.
[/quote]

Really? Hheemm.. I don't understand how magic and restaurant is an odd idea. People don't come to eat for food only, they want the experience.
Magic is perfect.

I hope we all learn something from this post though - NEVER push your magic on patrons. ALways ask if they want to see magic.
Because it can be offending to someone.

I learned my lesson way back when someone tried to swung at me because I pulled a coin from her hair LOL.
Message: Posted by: Silly Walter the Polar Bear (Jan 26, 2007 09:48PM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 10:43, RobertBloor wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 10:39, magicman845 wrote:
Hmm... Majikabra rasies the same ethical issue that was going through my mind. If a person realizes that a restaurant has already hired a magician to entertain its guests, is it right for that person to solicit the restaurant? For me, I would never do such a thing.

Kent
[/quote]

Of course it is. If you're a professional business person, competition is part of life.

I just can't get over this thought process that if another guy has a gig it's all of the sudden fruit of the forbidden tree.

Robert
[/quote]

Only an a-hole would do something like that. There are plenty of restaurants in most cities and you don't need to stab someone in the back for a gig.
Message: Posted by: RicHeka (Jan 26, 2007 10:30PM)
Silly Walter:Please try to be respectful with your posts.Mr.Bloor is not a newbie.He is a performer who has contributed much to this forum.I,personally may not agree on this point..but I respectfully accept his point of view.

Please think before you post.
******

Sir Walter if I misinterpreted you post please forgive me.I am just getting a little tired of the a-hole accusation

Best.

Rich
Message: Posted by: Silly Walter the Polar Bear (Jan 27, 2007 08:16AM)
No problem. I wasn't referring to Robert Bloor as an a-hole. I had meant it in reference to someone that would backstab a magician like that.
Message: Posted by: jlibby (Jan 27, 2007 08:41AM)
If you approach a restaurant (or any venue), it's not wrong to leave your promo material if they already have someone they're happy with. After all, what if the first magician leaves? What if they need a sub one night? What if the manager wants a show for his son's birthday but the restaurant magician doesn't do birthday parties?

But if you try to STEAL the gig from the first magician, by undercutting or whaterver, you're lower than dirt and a disgrace to this noble art. Ladies and gentlemen, we are (or should be) better than that!

See ya!
Joe L.
Message: Posted by: WoodRat (Jan 27, 2007 01:04PM)
Miguel,

I'm glad you posted here. I started one, then deleted it as I wasn't sure how to make the point. I think you stated things very well.

In the music business we have the same problem and it is very bad. So many bands/artists competing for a small pool of venues has led to lower wages for everyone, the quality of the music/entertainment has suffered as some bands now play for free just to be heard - hey, and you get what you pay for.

In the end it is bad for everyone. As the quality of the entertainment tanks, patrons come less often, club revenues decline and more pressure is placed on finding cheaper entertainment... so most clubs now have a DJ or even a jukebox instead of a band. The better bands that are still working are working twice as hard to keep the pay scale healthy and we're losing the battle.

So, the same thing can happen in magic, if everyone continues to undercut each other, the situation can only get worse.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 29, 2007 11:19AM)
Ok to address the issues.

Yep I caution against exactly this type of thing. I am sorry to see it happened. If you take away knowlege and learn from the experience all is not lost.

As for not being here, well yea bluntness and truth are not high on the priority list.

As for Rickbrooks, well as was said not all of us have the same thing. Being rude where you are from will not be the same as in Philly, or Chicago or New York. I don't happen to be a fan of sugar coating the truth, as when it comes up and bites you in the but, as in this case, it hurts far more than any words I could use. One could make an arguement that coddeling people actually hurts them in the long run.

So since I HAVE NOT been harsh on this thread lets please not turn it into a "is Danny to mean" thread. It is not an issue and we have plenty of those to go arround. I will indeed be kinder and gentler, and far less helpfull in the future. If feelings are what is important, than it is feelings I will spare.

I like Rich do not go to tables "cold". I bet we have similar systems, although I never asked him.

I personally would never approach an establishment with a magician. BUT I have had literally HUNDREDS of guys do it at places I work. I am not judging it right or wrong, simply not something I would choose to do. Ironically I think most magicians in general are working in the wrong places anyhow, so it is not really an issue.
Message: Posted by: JeffMac (Jan 29, 2007 03:05PM)
On the original post, if you make claims beyond what you are capable of you pretty much deserve to lose the gig. It's like lying on a resume if you tell me you can up my numbers and you don't you diddn't fulfill you job requirements. If the other guy took you job without undercutting your wage even better for him.

Woodrat I book entertainment all the time and I constantly hear the same thing from musicans. The reality as far as I am concerned was for a long time people were preffering D.j.s to Live bands in most venues. It gives a better range of musical style, your not limited to songs that a piticular band plays, and ya a d.j.s cheaper. There is still a market for live music thou and it is growing. Are there bands that work cheaper than others? Of course there are, I probably wouldn't book most of them because they have no draw to them thou. Bar owners and managers are smarter than we look. We realise that if we bring in quality at a higher price well make more when the night is done. We also arn't fond of having the reputation of a bar that brings in hack bands. Same goes for the restraunt owners I know. There is a level of quality that every buisness feels they need to live up to if I can get someone cheaper but without the quality I'm not going to book it. If someone you think has the same talent as you is under cutting your prices you still have 2 options cut yours or get better.

Danny again good to have ya back.
The whole approaching a table thing I think matters more depending on the enviroment of the bar or restauant. When I perform in the Bar I have no problem approaching a table. The place is a meat market and people expect to meet new people. Same would go if I ever worked a chucky cheese. People are begging to be interupted if they eat there. When I worked Higher end it was all on request.
and anywhere in between you gotta find what works for you.
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jan 30, 2007 10:52AM)
Danny,
Welcome back! Hope the electric shock therapy wasn't too intense. Wondering if you could elaberate on your comment that most magicians are working in the wrong places. What places, in your opinion, are right or wrong for magicians?
Patrick
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 30, 2007 10:54AM)
Patrick are you trying to get me into trouble? LOL


Send me a PM and I will elaborate for you in private so as not to ruffle feathers and get misinturpreted and told I am mean.
Message: Posted by: JeffMac (Jan 30, 2007 07:51PM)
Danny stop being mean and share with the rest of us
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Jan 31, 2007 09:44AM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 14:19, Vandy Grift wrote:
I'm sure he will be back someday.

Even if they did do that thing that I'm not saying that they did do...The person who has had that done to them usually gets to come back after a time.

Maybe he'll come back the way McMurphy came back to the ward for the last time in "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest". All calm and docile and lobotomized. Nice and passive, just the way Nurse Ratched likes it. LOL!
[/quote]

Who would play the Indian?

Also, in the original post, there's no indication that the other magician "undercut" the first magician to get the job. He even says the guy was a "better" magician who's mailing list enabled him to actually make good on the "increaed patronage" promise.

If we have the ability to do something "better" than the guy that's already there, don't we have the right to come forward and present ourselves?

OTOH, If the only reason he knew this venue was there was because first magician <told> him so. That was low. That ranks up there with Michael Jackson telling Paul McCartney he was going to overbid him and take the chance of Paul to get his songs back away!
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Jan 31, 2007 11:41AM)
[quote]
Who would play the Indian?
[/quote]

If I answered that, I have a feeling it would be the last thing I posted for 30 days or so.
Message: Posted by: magicmanci15 (Jan 31, 2007 02:04PM)
Ok. so I did tell him where I worked, and after being there for a couple of months he had the job. But he then emailed me and said he had no idea it was me that worked in that place. did he forget? Is he trying his best not to look horrible? I only say he is "better" because he's been performing magic for 20 and me for 7. He's done countless shows, and worked in restaurants for many years also. He has a mailing list of hundreds of thousands of people that hes worked for. His claim is better backed up, no doubt. I blame myself 100% Maybe Ill just show up in a disguise and heckle him ;D

Just Kidding. Two wrongs don't make a right. Im looking for the perfect place that I can stay at for a longtime. Hopefully they'll hire me for all the reasons we both want.

Ivan
Message: Posted by: Tom Bartlett (Feb 1, 2007 11:16AM)
When I was in grade a school, I had a teacher that would say: ďItís not a popularity contestĒ. She also talk about Marx and Stalin as being great men of vision. The reality is, we are always in a popularity contest from birth to death, period.

Iíve had sales swept out from under me by other sales people male and female for no other than they were more likeable, better looking, had great personality, or the buyer just wanted to spend more time with the saleswoman because she really look hot in those short skirts. But all is not lost, later when the bottom line was not as good as it appeared (pun intended), I was able to get the client back. What really sucks, is when, not only are they more likeable, they are just as competent and have as good or better product.

Our magic and our personality, are the products we are selling it, not just to our audience but to the owner or manager also. So if someone is more likable or has a better product we will have to change the way we do it or what we do for the better. I will also agree that things happen for a reason and every cloud has a silver lining and itís up to us to find it.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Feb 1, 2007 11:41AM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-01 12:16, Tom Bartlett wrote:
When I was in grade a school, I had a teacher that would say: ďItís not a popularity contestĒ. She also talk about Marx and Stalin as being great men of vision.
[/quote]

Yeah, I went to public school too. LOL!
Message: Posted by: Tom Bartlett (Feb 1, 2007 12:39PM)
Vandy,

I think the communist have finely succeeded taking over the public school system, thanks to the teachers union. This is not just from a parents point of view, I also teach. The school books are so skewed to the left it make teaching impractical, and it not just the history books either.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Feb 1, 2007 01:18PM)
Tom,

I have no doubt about it. It's funny, when I was in High School, practically the only teacher that didn't extole the virtues of some sort of communism/socialism utopia was my Russian Soviet Studies/Russian language teacher, who actually lived under communism.
Message: Posted by: MAKMagic (Feb 1, 2007 01:21PM)
Ahh, VandyTom, you have both climbed another few rungs on my likeness ladder
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Feb 1, 2007 01:30PM)
You were already one of my favs MAK, but if you don't like commies... Then you went up another notch in my estimation!
Message: Posted by: Tom Bartlett (Feb 1, 2007 01:45PM)
Are we the only three?
Message: Posted by: Tom Bartlett (Feb 1, 2007 01:57PM)
Dannydoyle,

You politically incorrect son-of-a-gun. ;) Itís good to have you back postín.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2007 10:01PM)
don't get used to it.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Feb 22, 2007 03:35PM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-31 15:04, magicmanci15 wrote:
Ok. so I did tell him where I worked, and after being there for a couple of months he had the job. But he then emailed me and said he had no idea it was me that worked in that place. did he forget? Is he trying his best not to look horrible? I only say he is "better" because he's been performing magic for 20 and me for 7. He's done countless shows, and worked in restaurants for many years also. He has a mailing list of hundreds of thousands of people that hes worked for. His claim is better backed up, no doubt. I blame myself 100% Maybe Ill just show up in a disguise and heckle him ;D

Just Kidding. Two wrongs don't make a right. Im looking for the perfect place that I can stay at for a longtime. Hopefully they'll hire me for all the reasons we both want.

Ivan
[/quote]

Yes, but is there any indication that he "undercut" you? It's possible with the greater experience and mailing list, he was able to make a better deal that you have. I'm not saying this is a fact, only that it's possible. I keep hearing; "How dare he 'undercut' another magician!" when I haven't seen indications that he actually has.