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Topic: Stage Illusions
Message: Posted by: thecogito (Feb 8, 2007 02:28AM)
Greetings,

I am fairly new to magic and I am wondering what some of your favorite and well received gospel stage illusions are? Any help is greatly appreciated!!

~Ron
Message: Posted by: randyburtis (Feb 8, 2007 03:57PM)
Sub truck goes over well
head/arm choppers
stocks of Zanzbar(sp?)(escape magic)
I have heard from others the sword basket, sword through neck have some good gospel application to them and go over well.
Message: Posted by: Grandice (Feb 9, 2007 09:43AM)
We just did an awesome human video with a clear subtrunk at our church, it went over awesome. It had a great impact.
A sword cabinet/box/basket/... can all be used with a gosple message.
Actually I think almost any illusion can be used or turned into something for God. Just use your imangintion and Pray, God will give you ideas.
Message: Posted by: dkmontgomery (Feb 9, 2007 12:30PM)
I saw your see-through sub trunk. I would love to integrate some larger illusions into our ministry in the future. But man, it's so har to get everything in our van like it is.
Message: Posted by: thecogito (Feb 10, 2007 12:38AM)
Thanks for the help!! I understand the space limitation as well as I only drive a coupe. Also, I find myself quickly filling up a suitecase with some of my larger items.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Feb 10, 2007 04:33PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-08 16:57, randyburtis wrote:

stocks of Zanzbar(sp?)(escape magic)[/quote]

Stocks of Zanzibar. :)

--------

I have done these stage illusions in my gospel shows, over the years:

Sword Basket
Stocks of Zanzibar
Chair Suspension
Guillotine
Super-X Suspension
Sub Trunk
Victory Carton Illusion
Bow Sawing in Half

BTW, I once did a week at a camp in Saskatchewan, and fit 6 stage illusions plus other stage show material, into my station wagon.

My favorite gospel stage illusions are Chair Suspension, Sub Trunk, and Guillotine.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: thecogito (Feb 10, 2007 05:39PM)
Thanks for the infomation!!! I am going to check these out.
Message: Posted by: JoyJoy (Feb 11, 2007 04:35AM)
[quote] On 2007-02-08 16:57, randyburtis wrote:
head/arm choppers[/quote]
What is your message to it?

[quote]
On 2007-02-10 17:33, Donald Dunphy wrote:
I have done these stage illusions in my gospel shows, over the years:
Guillotine
My favorite gospel stage illusions are Chair Suspension, Sub Trunk, and Guillotine.
[/quote]
What is your message to the guillotine?

I am just putting a gospel routine together for my head chopper. So I am very interested in all ideas about it. Maybe there are also more here having ideas?

I thought to talk about confidence or about eternal life. But I am not satisfied with my ideas yet...
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Feb 11, 2007 10:02AM)
Hi JoyJoy-

I claim no originality for my routines. They are pretty standard, and have been published by others in magazines and books.

I've used two messages for either the chopper or the guillotine.

First is, Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23. I talk about how we have sinned, and how what we earn for sin is death.

I also define sin for the audience, assuming that not everyone knows what that word is. Sin is missing the mark, like in archery. In this case, missing the mark that God has set. I give some examples of what sin is, so the children understand... Telling lies, disobeying your parents, fighting with your brother or sister, stealing cookies they weren't supposed to take ( :) ), turning your back on God and his ways, etc. I even get them to raise their hands as I give the examples.

With a wrist chopper, it's a natural to talk about how some people used to get their hands cut off in certain middle east countries, if they stole anything. This is after I've had everyone understand and admit they are sinners.

Then I talk about how Christ gives eternal life, and protects us from death (separation from God), by dying for us.

The second message is one where you ask question, with a chance to win a prize (often I did a bill change leading into the routine, and the $1M bill was what they were trying to win), and because they answer it wrong, they are put in the chopper or guillotine. Then my assistant, or the pastor, would come along with the right answer, and choose as their prize, instead of the money, would choose to take the victim's place in the chopper or guillotine. It's a powerful illustration of how Christ took our place, when He died on the cross. (BTW, the idea of leading into the chopper routine with a bill change specifically is my original idea, I think. I think that other performers use another prize when they do their contest approach to lead into the routine.)

- Donald

P.S. BTW, I don't use the guillotine or wrist chopper in all of my gospel shows, and rarely in my normal kids show. Because it is a danger trick, and I know that some younger children can become easily afraid, I only do it in certain shows. I generally do not do it if there are lots of children under 8 years of age.
Message: Posted by: randyburtis (Feb 11, 2007 04:52PM)
My theme for the wrist chopper is pretty close to what Donald said, along the idea of punishment for our sin, and that Someone took that punishment so there is no sting of death for us.

I won't do it if it is a young group, but in a family show type setting I will use it. I know ther eis a whole debate on danger tricks etc, I am not going there myself. I have a serious message mixed with a fun delivery, and have learned to pick the right volunteer and I have had NO issues from parents or clients about the "danger" aspect. I warnt eh kids with a "don't do this at home type disclaimer, and I have found it to be a powerful tool to presenting THE most powerful message.
Message: Posted by: JoyJoy (Feb 11, 2007 06:46PM)
Thank you very much Donald and Randy! Thanks. If there are more ideas out there...

I am thinking about your suggestions. For my routine it seams not to fit as smooth as I like it. The "punishment for our sin" as idea is here in Germany difficult for reaching non-christian groups. The most would block.
I will have to keep thinking about "the volunteer in fear (after showing how it works), the volunteer trusting me, that he will be unharmed and how it is worth trusting in god to get eternal life (be unharmed)", about the connecting of trusting and knowing someone - and out of that to get known with god as only possibility to get enternal life...

We have to be careful with kids in the public. I think for kids this illusion might cause nightmares... . But I really like the thoughts of using the illusion for youth target groups (15-20 years). (And of cause adults...)
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Feb 11, 2007 10:40PM)
Sin is not always a popular subject. But a person can't really celebrate God's grace and mercy, until they fully understand and admit their own sin.

Everyone has a penalty to pay for their sins. They can either pay it themself, and live in eternal seperation from God (we really have no idea of the pain of that seperation, here on earth). Or they can have Christ pay the penalty for their sin, when He died on the cross. It's our choice.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Joe Marotta (Feb 11, 2007 11:57PM)
JoyJoy-

When I'm performing illusions (escapes), and presenting a message about God, I'm not worried that I will offend someone with my message. Someone will always find the preaching of the cross as offensive. But they are the very people who need to hear the message.

Sin will never be a popular subject with people who's spirits are not open to the things of God. They don't want to hear about sin because they don't believe they are really bad. In fact, all would say that they aren't as bad as some other people, like murders etc. People will use Man's standards and compare themselves against other people.

I agree with Donald's statements. And let me add that a person won't understand or even DESIRE God's grace and mercy UNTIL they fully understand that they have sinned against Him. They won't understand the fact that they've sinned against God until you present them the 10 Commandments, God's righteous standards.

Donald explains that to the children by giving examples of those commandments; lying, stealing, disobeying your parents. People won't believe they need a savior until they see their sin and admit that they have sinned.

When people admit that they haven't lived up to God's perfect standards, then they can see that they have sinned against a righteous God, and that they only deserve justice (God's punishment). Only then are they ready to hear about God's grace and mercy that was extended to them through the sacrifice of Christ. We deserved punishment for our sins, and Christ willingly took our punishment for us, paying our debt so that we could be forgiven and pardoned. It's an important message.

Don't be afraid of embarrassing someone, or offending them with the truth of their situation. In fact, I think telling them the truth is the most loving thing that we can do. We MUST present the truth to everyone. There is nothing more important than their eternal destiny.

Use your talents and your skills to perform at your very best. Magicians who are followers of Christ should be the most skilled performers out there. Why? Because we want to use our talents for God's purposes. We should never give Him a lazy half-hearted effort. We give our earthly employers some of our best efforts, we should be giving our absolute best efforts when we are serving the Creator who made us and gave us our talents and abilities.

Be Brave. Practice hard and be the very best performer that you can become. Let your chops be some of the best that anyone has seen. If people appreciate your skills at performing magic, then you've earned the right to be heard. You have the most important message that anyone has been tasked with delivering. Deliver it with gentleness and kindness. Deliver it because their eternal destiny is hanging in the balance and your message will make the difference in where they spend it.

Sorry for going on so lengthy here, but I feel very passionate about it, as you can see.

Joe
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Feb 12, 2007 12:44AM)
Great post, Joe!

- Donald
Message: Posted by: JoyJoy (Feb 12, 2007 04:15AM)
Passionate is nothing wrong - I like it!!!
Sorry, maybe it is my bad english, so you did misunderstand me. I totally agree, that the message of christ is offending people who donīt believe. We have the totally same position in that and I am like you passionate about it. Sin is never popular and no one likes to recognize that they are on the wrong way, to recognize that they have to repent.

My problem with this message to the routine in Germany is, that there is a cultural difference, there is a diffenrent kind of humor. My chopper routine is full of comedy and I canīt put at the same time a so important ans serious message in, where I want the people to think about. This message they have to think about and get touched. Maybe that is different in america (and I think it is) or maybe you donīt do the chopper with many humorious statements.

For example I pointed out the disconnectedness in my last show at the final act. A very deep and "slow" and emotional moment. There I could talk about us turning the back to God and living our own life. Thatīs sin, to miss the target, to not live with God etc... . (some examples of sin are okay, I often come up with some, but they shouldnīt be emphasized, so that people compare: "my sin is not as bad as the other...") Sin is to not live with God and stealing etc. are the consequences of that (not the cause). ... Christ is the answer to the problem not to be conectable with the holy God. There were a lot saved at the last show, a lot who regreted their sins.

I hope you did understand my post above a little more.

Your brother.

PS: Another thought I have about the chopper as punishment is, that we have sometimes to make it clear, what we earn. But people should not only believe because of pressure, because of fear - but because of realizing a bit of Godīs great love. Thatīs the point to emphasize!!! (without to sweep the earnings of sin under the carpet)
Message: Posted by: Joe Marotta (Feb 12, 2007 08:07AM)
Donald, thanks for the kind words.

JoyJoy, I'm sorry that I misunderstood you. My German isn't too good either :smile: Actually I love the head chopper illusion and in America we do it with lots of comedy and humor. I've seen it performed like Donald explained, with funny bits and then using that relaxed moment to illustrate a Biblical truth, "we failed and deserve punishment, and someone took our punishment for us so that we could be set free." It doesn't have to kill the moment (no pun intended really) but just take advantage of the perfect illustration. Thank you for clarifying your post and again I apologize for misunderstanding.

One thing I must respectfully disagree with you is something you said in your postscript. The Bible tells us that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Psalm 111:10, Proverbs 9:10). We must show people that they have transgressed God's holy law, and that judgement day is coming. All of us will be judged because all of us have sinned against God. Understanding that they deserve punishment will soften the soil of their stony heart so that when you give them the good news of the salvation offered through Christ, it will be planted in their hearts and grow and fluorish.

The apostles and even Christ himself didn't preach love, joy, peace. They didn't convince people by saying, 'you have a god-shaped hole in your heart and God wants to fill it with love and peace and happiness". They showed people God's law and how they failed to keep it. They showed people that they were guilty before a righteous God and judgement day was coming for each of us. Then their eyes were opened and they said, "what must we do to be saved?"

THAT is showing people love, love people enough to tell them their true condition and where they are heading unless they repent and turn from their sins.

Your brother in Christ,
Joe
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Feb 12, 2007 10:11AM)
JoyJoy -

You keep coming back to the issue of people believing they are less sinful than others (comparison on a ficticious "chart"). Our Pastor spoke about this idea a couple of Sunday's ago, in church.

Maybe that is something you need to address in your outreach message:

Question: "How much sin does it take to keep you from Heaven?"

Answer: "Any little bit of sin at all."

Another way to look at it:

Question: "How much righteousness does it take to get into Heaven?"

Answer: "More than you or I could ever do on our own ability."

One of the illustrations of this I have used now and then in my gospel messages over the years is this:

I live on an big island (Vancouver Island), seperated from the mainland of North America. It's a 24-38 nautical miles ride on the ferry to get from the island to the lower mainland (depending on which ferry you take). If I were to run really hard and try to jump to the mainland, I would fall short. By a lot! There is no way I can do it in my own ability. I have to use a boat, or a bridge.

Just like that illustration, I have to have Christ's righteousness to get into Heaven. There is no way in my own ability I can do it.

Another example my Pastor used in his message, was he was showing good and bad people on a scale, this scale that people create in their own mind. Good people (less sinful) were at the scale about 3 feet off of the ground (give some examples of people who were well known for their goodness). And bad people (more sinful) are at the bottom of the scale (give some examples of people who are notorious for their wickedness), near the ground. People think if they are in the top 50% of that scale, then they make it into Heaven. No idea where they came up with that, but that's what they think. They also think they are better than maybe they really are.

The whole trouble is they are imagining this scale of zero inches through 3 feet off of the ground, but they don't realize that Heaven is not at that level of 3 feet off of the ground. God's perfection that is required to get into Heaven is like the distance of the moon off of the ground! We are so far short of where we need to be.

Another illustration of sin not allowing us to get into Heaven is this:

Imagine as though you put a tiny drop of poison in a big bucket of water. Would you still drink from that bucket, knowing the water was contaminated? No. That little bit of poison, makes ALL of the water bad and unfit for drinking. Any little bit of sin in our life (and we all have lots of sin, not just a little bit), keeps us from entering Heaven.

So, like I said, perhaps you need to spend some time talking about what it means to be short of God's perfection (His righteousness). Talk about how our sin makes us fall short, and how short of the mark we are. This is why we need Christ, and his righteousness, and his sacrifice.

- Donald

P.S. Yes, I do at times combine a very serious message with a comedy routine. It can be done, with the right tact and right timing, just as Joe said.
Message: Posted by: JoyJoy (Feb 15, 2007 07:03PM)
Again I agree again with both of you. I think we have the same point.

"You keep coming back to the issue of people believing they are less sinful than others (comparison on a ficticious "chart")."
No, there is no chart at all (like stealing is better than killing...). I didnīt even think of that (and I think and hope I didnīt say that in my post or you misunderstood me).
Sin is sin (sin = to not live with God). And stealing etc. are the consequences (of not living with God). Your examples are good. I have to memorize such examples - useful.

And Joe:
I donīt disagreed in my post with "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Psalm 111:10, Proverbs 9:10).
Maybe you misunderstood it cause I used "fear" as description of pressure. What I mean about pressure is: If for example I point with a loaded gun at someone and say: "Now, say that you believe or I will shoot!" The person maybe says yes - only because he knows, than I wonīt shoot. But thatīs no yes from the heart.

"the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" That is important! No question.
But I meant (and mean) that it is important to show them Godīs love. I think we have to emphasize that. I am just thinking here about the main verse: John 3, 16. Thatīs the key! Godīs love for us is so big, that he gave his son for us - because we are sinner (and we should not get lost).

=> If I talk with a person, I will have to tell them about our sin (our basic situation) and the consequences (death), but than I emphasize HIS love. Thatīs the good message, the gospel. Penitence is not coming from pressure, itīs coming out of our heart, real deeply honest, from seeing and understanding the truth: the basic situation (failure and separation from God) and the great, undeserved, overwhelming love.
Message: Posted by: JoyJoy (Feb 15, 2007 07:51PM)
And to the topic:

If you also think about Grand illusions:
metamorphosis
windshear
apperances

well there are many illusions you can fill with message. If you already have some trained - think about, what they could symbolize.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Feb 15, 2007 11:47PM)
Hi JoyJoy -

I understand that you personally don't believe in this ficticious "sin chart". However, we know that many non-believers make up such a thing in their minds, to appease their own conscience, etc.

And that is why it is important to deal with it, because many non-belivers think that way about sin, and getting into heaven.

We agree.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Mike Ching (Sep 9, 2008 10:44AM)
I hope it is OK to post this here, I am looking for a Bow Sawing in good condition (not necc to include table). If anyone has one please mssg me & send an image?

Aloha
Mike
Message: Posted by: jimhlou (Sep 9, 2008 03:47PM)
Post below on "Stage Illusions for sale or trade", put subject as WTB Bow Sawing

Jim
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Sep 10, 2008 03:46PM)
I do a Cube-zag, as well as the obvious Metamorphosis. If we think hard any routine can be a Gospel routine.
Message: Posted by: thebeaky (Jun 13, 2011 02:33PM)
I've seen a few of the punishment for a wrong answer type presentations, and it concerns me a little. Is God a riddler type character, looking for us to get the wrong answer?
I get the point of the presentation, but it seems a bit contrived. Maybe better measuring someone up to the Ten commandments would be better. That would probably mean asking the volunteers permission before the show but I think it would be fairer to God's character.

I've written a script for a sub trunk presentation, and will probably post it once we have performed it, but I am curious, what is it people do with the sub trunk?
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Jun 13, 2011 04:33PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-16 00:47, Donald Dunphy wrote:
Hi JoyJoy -

I understand that you personally don't believe in this ficticious "sin chart". However, we know that many non-believers make up such a thing in their minds, to appease their own conscience, etc.

And that is why it is important to deal with it, because many non-belivers think that way about sin, and getting into heaven.

We agree.

- Donald
[/quote]

Be a little careful with this one. The largest Church in the world believes and teaches that some sins are worse than others. I am a member of that Church--the Roman Catholic Church. I have studied and found this teaching to be completely biblical.

They are called by the Church "mortal sins" (those which destroy our relationship with God and thus keep us from Heaven), and "venial sins" (those which only damage our relationship with God, but will not keep us from Heaven).

Think of the difference as being analagous to a felony vs. a misdemeanor.

I don't want to start a theological war on this forum...but you need to be aware of this teaching...it is held by most orthodox Christians.
Message: Posted by: MagicBus (Jun 13, 2011 06:31PM)
On behalf of the band and myself, I hoped we passed the audition. Get Back. On behalf of the minority 590 million Protestants (give or take a few million)worldwide, sola Scriptura. http://www.gty.org
Message: Posted by: thebeaky (Jun 20, 2011 07:51AM)
Back to the original question,

Here is one I have done with the sub trunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iyYUiGWo4g
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jun 20, 2011 08:24AM)
I have been following this thread and I have a question. By the way I hope my number of posts both at large in the Café as well as the posts I have made here - admittedly long - should be evidence that I am no troll.

I have a SERIOUS problem with the use of guillotines even in "secular" magic. You can try to rationalize it with any presentation you like but the fact remain that the guillotine is one of the most horrific inventions by mankind and if anything, the guillotine's USE demonstrates our fallen nature from God. I am coming to this from an Eastern Orthodox perspective, i.e, an ancient perspective that has ALWAYS abjured violence. The guillotine was an instrument of capital punishment and guess what guts? MANY Christians - Catholic AND Protestants met their untimely end in the machinery of death. Read up on Robespierre.

There is nothing "funny" about a guillotine. I wonder if there was an electric chair illusion or a gas chamber illusion or a lethal injection illusion if they would be used by magicians. I imagine it would and it sickens me.

I simply do NOT believe not can I condone as a Christian the use of even a "trick" representation of any form of capital punishment. The message of the Living God is a message of love and the guillotine and its ilk are the antithesis of that message.

+In Christ,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jun 20, 2011 08:39AM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-12 09:07, Joe Marotta wrote:
Donald, thanks for the kind words.

JoyJoy, I'm sorry that I misunderstood you. My German isn't too good either :smile: Actually I love the head chopper illusion and in America we do it with lots of comedy and humor. I've seen it performed like Donald explained, with funny bits and then using that relaxed moment to illustrate a Biblical truth, "we failed and deserve punishment, and someone took our punishment for us so that we could be set free." It doesn't have to kill the moment (no pun intended really) but just take advantage of the perfect illustration. Thank you for clarifying your post and again I apologize for misunderstanding.

One thing I must respectfully disagree with you is something you said in your postscript. The Bible tells us that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Psalm 111:10, Proverbs 9:10). We must show people that they have transgressed God's holy law, and that judgement day is coming. All of us will be judged because all of us have sinned against God. Understanding that they deserve punishment will soften the soil of their stony heart so that when you give them the good news of the salvation offered through Christ, it will be planted in their hearts and grow and fluorish.

The apostles and even Christ himself didn't preach love, joy, peace. They didn't convince people by saying, 'you have a god-shaped hole in your heart and God wants to fill it with love and peace and happiness". They showed people God's law and how they failed to keep it. They showed people that they were guilty before a righteous God and judgement day was coming for each of us. Then their eyes were opened and they said, "what must we do to be saved?"

THAT is showing people love, love people enough to tell them their true condition and where they are heading unless they repent and turn from their sins.

Your brother in Christ,
Joe
[/quote]

Wow....

And what Bible did you read and what Apostles are you talking about??

"He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes" (I John 2:10-11).

"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue [abide] ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain [abide] in you, and that your joy might be full" (John 15:7-11).

"whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls" (I Peter 1:8-9).

“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:12, 13).

Joe, Please look up T.U.L.I.P. and John Calvin? Then try to apply Calvin to the above verses - it simply cannot be done. The Sermon on the Mount (also known as The Beatitudes) are a beautiful expression of God's LOVE to His people.


My brothers and sisters, Our Lord Jesus Christ is both FULLY God and FULLY human. Jesus Christ is the Paragon; He laid down His life for all of us, and He defeated death by death.

+In Christ,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: MagicBus (Jun 20, 2011 10:14AM)
I went to Calvin College in Grand Rapids for a time- yikes- Calvin would have no problem with the Sermon on the Mount- and there is both a good theological and Biblical basis for what Joe stated in his post regarding the use of the law in evangelism. Of course God is love, no one would deny that. Many books have been written on this subject so I will not attempt to rehash their content briefly here in this magical forum other than refer to just several of the hundreds(?)of web sites that would echo Joe's thoughts: http://www.wayofthemaster.org http://www.wretchedradio.com http://www.gty.org http://www.moodychurch.org http://www.livingwaters.com So yep, it's Biblical.

Vlad, one must be careful in concluding your belief system or interpretation of the Bible is the only "Biblical" one- I happen to agree with Joe on this one- as do many other theologians past and present both here in the U.S. and worldwide. Ray Comfort has reprinted many of those quotes in multiple volumes from Spurgeon, Wesley, etc.. It's just an additional example of theological or denominational differences that kinda creeps outside of the magical scope of The Magic Café'. Your "simply cannot be done" statement is either a misunderstanding of either Calvin or how many other Bible scholars would read the Bible literally such as Dr. John MacArthur (who would also agree with Joe's post I am quite certain). Dr. MacArthur, just this month, preached a sermon from Mark finally completing his decades long series on preaching through the entire New Testiment verse by verse- which will result in his "New Testiment Commentaries" printed series being finally completed. I do do not know how many volumes it is up to now, it has be be something like 20 or more by now.

Anyway, although I appreciate your zeal and respect your viewpoint, I would not agree that you might have the unique handle on Biblical understanding and the rest of us just don't quite get it. Let's just agree to disagree if we could. Psalm 67! Roger
Message: Posted by: MagicBus (Jun 20, 2011 10:26AM)
Whoops, wish The Magic Café' had spell check, it is spelled either Old or New "Testament" of course, don't know what I was thinking... a senior moment I guess.
Message: Posted by: thebeaky (Jun 20, 2011 10:41AM)
I'm not a big fan of the "agree to disagree" line, just takes out room for debate with it mutual learning

I also have issues with the guillotine however I would not put it for the same reason, considering the symbol of our faith is another gruesome killing device upon which many Christians were killed alongside Jesus. I think it probably can be done right, but needs to be done carefully, and not simply dangling people over death for its own sake.

Paul's argument about a 'God shaped hole' comes up in Acts 17, (Statue to an unknown God).

The beatitudes is about Joy, (blessing/happiness).

When we see the Gospel as simply penal substitution we miss so very much. Penal substitution is a model to help us understand a part of the Gospel, it is in no way complete. Jesus brought freedom to captives, sight to the blind and proclaimed the year of the Lords favour,(Jubilee). He rescued people from demons and slavery to sin and yes took the punishment for them on the cross.

Part of the reason I wrote the sub trunk piece I did (see earlier post) was to emphasize Jesus' as a bringer of freedom, and victor over Satan. To show we do not need to be enslaved by them anymore.
Message: Posted by: MagicBus (Jun 20, 2011 04:56PM)
I guess I will defer out at this point- no need to restate theological and Biblically based arguments here in my view- but I do not believe anyone here has stated the Gospel is "simply penal substitution" or it was "complete" simply on this basis- this is a building up (and then subsequent tearing down) of a straw man argument not made by anyone that I am aware of. See any published work by Ray Comfort, Charles H. Spurgeon, John MacArthur (such as "The Gospel According to Jesus"), R.C. Sproul and countless others and I don't see any of these authors making a "simply penal argument" although they would agree with the importance of the law in convicting men of sin in the evangelistic process. As for the head chopper, I agree, always made my stomach churn, even when Andre' Kole did it.
Message: Posted by: MagicBus (Jun 20, 2011 08:18PM)
Now for a true head chopper story. A magician at Abbott's did a large head chopper routine two years ago or so- it was the standard one where the magician had a large head of lettuce there on a nearby stand which was to be cut through first. Then he "forgot" about chopping the lettuce first by "mistake"- and appeared to get distracted- and instead put the volunteer's head right into the large guillotine without doing the "lettuce demostration" first. The assistant who raised the blade appeared upset- tried to signal that the magician forgot to do the lettuce cut first. Since most the audience were magicians- we (including myself) started to "buzz" and we wondered if someone would have the guts to quickly yell out "STOP!- you forgot to cut the lettuce first!" But no one did- and instead we almost all had a collective heart attack. The trick worked as normal- the magician kinda winked at all of us out there and glanced over at the lettuce- and it was over. I am still mad I was not willing to yell out "You forgot the lettuce!" (I thought for sure we were about to witness a horrible accident)--- but no one did. Sad commentary on placing "confidence" in the performer and/or public embarrassment over the safety of a spectator. That goofy magician apparently had the last laugh on all of us- we all had been taken in by our own common knowledge of the routine normally looks like. You could hear throughout the auditorium people whispering: "HE FORGOT THE LETTUCE!" I have never been so nervous when the blade fell that time ever- I must have seen that trick done a blasted twenty times before- and I still don't like it- just like the nail/cup stab. That magician found a unique way to scare us all- to me that may have been funny for him that we magicians were all punked- but entertainment it's not. Hope I did not give anyone any ideas...
Message: Posted by: thebeaky (Jun 21, 2011 03:47AM)
But someone did say "The apostles and even Christ himself didn't preach love, joy, peace. They didn't convince people by saying, 'you have a god-shaped hole in your heart and God wants to fill it with love and peace and happiness". They showed people God's law and how they failed to keep it. They showed people that they were guilty before a righteous God and judgment day was coming for each of us. Then their eyes were opened and they said, "what must we do to be saved?" "

And that is not true. Yes they did show people how they failed to uphold the law and so their need for a savior, but they also preached love, joy and peace. (along with patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control).

Which is why I felt the need to address the issue.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jun 21, 2011 08:33AM)
MagicBus,

The sources you gave are all from the Protestant sola scriptura perspective. To an Eastern Orthodox Christian, sola scriptura is alien and in fact the very concept is non-scriptural. With all due respect, you state that I am implying that *I* said or inferred that I have the "handle" on the meaning. I never EVER claimed that. But, sola scriptura does. You must admit that it is delicious irony, no?

+In Christ,
Vlad

PS: I realize this section of the Café gets trolled. In THAT respect I understand the trepidation of some to answer a question or observation. That being said, there are relatively few of us here from the ancient Christian churches, i.e, Eastern Orthodox,Roman Catholic, Coptic, that post here. Oft times OUR voice is silenced and some members here, NOT understanding that there is more to Christianity than Protestantism have made it difficult for we of the Churches that LONG pre-date the Reformation to offer OUR Christian views. This is not the case always, but brothers and sisters and Christ, why is it that I must check out Moody, but I have had posts deleted where I have asked someone to checked out Sts. Polycarp, Athanasius, and other Church fathers?

Am I to understand that Moody and Calvin are cool but St. Athanasius and St. Gregory of Nyssa are unmentionable? Am I to understand that when I am told/suggested to check out a source I cannot answer in kind with a source that addresses the point?

Christ DID preach peace and love. I did the sola scriptura thing to show SOME of the versus, and I get BERATED for doing what others do here regularly and is accepted?

Tell you what, As a Christian, I will bow OUT of the Good News forum that way there are no further problems. And MagicBus, no need to thank me for my zeal my brother as we all should have it and I believe we all agree at least on that point. Millions of martyrs have died in the name of Christ and for me not to be zealous would besmirch their Eternal memory.

Vlad out.
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Jun 21, 2011 10:44AM)
I hope this is not the last we hear (read) from you here, Vlad. I find your posts and thoughts behind them very thought provoking and interesting (not in an at a distance laboratory way either). Please reconsider.
As far as the apparent disagreement we seem to be having here, I think there are elements of truth from both Joe and Vlad. My thinking is, concerning abiding in Christ, loving our brothers and other verses referenced, these things will not and cannot happen until someone has an encounter with God and receives the gift of salvation. That usually doesn't happen until some form of a brokenness occurs and acceptance of a need for a savior is realized. This is where, I believe, Joe is dead on. But it isn't all inclusive either it is more like the starting point. Abiding in Christ and growing in our love (which is flowing from God through us) for God and others is the next step and basically the challenge for how we should live out the rest of our days. I also do not think it an error to talk about a search for fulfilment that always ends in futility, with what the world has to offer. I think there is a lot of truth in the fact that we as human beings are seeking that "something" that will give us lasting happiness, etc. But many do not realize it is an actual spiritual need that God created us with.
These are just some of my thoughts from an unschooled and unqualified, recipient of Gods grace...

Glen
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 21, 2011 09:35PM)
Vlad, the answer is very simple. The Gospel magic forum is not to be used by someone to teach their theology, or doctrine because they feel it`s not represented enough here. Many of us Protestants share different doctrine, but somehow we manage to put those differences aside most of the time because we are all interrested in Gospel magic.

You`ve made it clear that you have no interrest in Gospel magic, nor do you perform it. None of your posts have been helpful in that regards. I don`t mean that as an insult, as I`m sure you`ll agree that your intent here isn`t to learn or give advice on Gospel magic, or even magic for that matter. :)

I believe you have been shown quite a bit of patience, kindness, and respect considering your only reasoning or intent of posting here has nothing to do with an interrest in Gospel Magic.

There was church long before their was even the Catholic, or Orthodox Church. Just because Martin Luther exposed the heresies of the Catholic Church doesn`t mean the Catholic Church is the only church to have been poisoned with lies. Nor does it make it the oldest. Just maybe Martin Luther took the oldest out of the Catholic Church, and helped restore the Church closer back to where it should be? Even the Catholic Church has recognized some of the theses Martin raised, and I believe the Orthodox have too.

We are better off when we don't discuss topics like speaking in tongues, infant baptisism, sprinkle, splash, or dunk when it comes to being baptized, etc. I can name a list of things but we are not really here for that. It happens on occasions, and on occasions it's allowed to go on, but other times it gets nipped quickly in the butt.

I`ll tell you one thing I know is very Biblical. Jesus Christ is coming back for His broken Church. When He comes back He will restore us to His glory. Any church that claims to be the perfect church is a liar.

Of course the sources MagicBus gave you were Protestant sola scriptura perspective! What else would you expect? :)

First I'd like to quote somthing you posted, and then with the answer to your question.

"relatively few of us here from the ancient Christian churches, i.e, Eastern Orthodox,Roman Catholic, Coptic, that post here. Oft times OUR voice is silenced and some members here, NOT understanding that there is more to Christianity than Protestantism have made it difficult for we of the Churches that LONG pre-date the Reformation to offer OUR Christian views."

You are in the wrong forum. This a forum to discuss Gospel magic, not for you to teach Catholic, or Orthodox theology. Especially ones that you very well know directly conflict with most of ours.

If you look at Christianity having so many labels, then I'm afraid you are probally still looking at it from the outside. I tend to look at it as a broken family that the return of our Lord will heal and restore.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jun 22, 2011 08:11AM)
Dan,

This is my final post here because you deserve an answer. Joe CLEARLY stated that Christ and His Apostles did NOT preach peace and love - and THAT is patently wrong. As a CHRISTIAN - I answered.

Finally, the church that "existed" before as you say the "Orthodox and Catholic" Churches STILL exists. But, there seems to be a denial of history by many. A pity.

As for looking Christianity from the outside, I find that an insult, brother, and furthermore a blatant denial on YOUR part of the disarray of certain aspects of Western thought.

So Dan, should Steve rename this subforum "The PROTESTANT Good News?" I have NEVER tried to convert nor proseletyze. Ever. In fact the Orthodox Church does not engage in such.

Joe's statement deserved an answer. What IS the state of Gospel magic when someone makes a statement such as that????

My prayers to all and no ill feelings. Only sadness in that you have falsely accused me of trying to further an agenda which does not exist. Farewell.

+In Christ,
Vlad

PS: I will accept no PMs. The matter is closed as I will not darken this subforum anymore.
Message: Posted by: MagicBus (Jun 22, 2011 11:01AM)
I think in all honesty, I need to report that I have "switched" doctrinal churches a half dozen times in my life: from Christian Reformed, to Reformed Baptist, to an IFCA member indepedent church, to a non-denominational church, and am now currently a member or a Wesleyan congregation. Boy oh boy am I ever confused! So ones theological position sure can change from time to time... at least it does in my case. So it sure does not bother me/is just fine to have conversations with all sorts of folks using the same inspired Bible. Carry on all!
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Jun 22, 2011 10:38PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-21 22:35, Gospel Dan wrote:
There was church long before their was even the Catholic, or Orthodox Church. Just because Martin Luther exposed the heresies of the Catholic Church doesn`t mean the Catholic Church is the only church to have been poisoned with lies. Nor does it make it the oldest. Just maybe Martin Luther took the oldest out of the Catholic Church, and helped restore the Church closer back to where it should be? Even the Catholic Church has recognized some of the theses Martin raised, and I believe the Orthodox have too.[/quote]

So now you are proclaiming that the ancient Church is the one with heresy? I say that it is Martin Luther that taught heresy. So which of is correct? I'm afraid that we of the ancient Church have history on our side, my brother.

Name a Church that existed before the Catholic Church. You can't. All other Churches are branches of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (which, of course, includes the Eastern Orthodox).

[quote]
Of course the sources MagicBus gave you were Protestant sola scriptura perspective! What else would you expect? :)[/quote]

I don't speak for Vlad, but I, for one, prefer that people use biblical concepts. Sola Scriptura is NOT Scriptural. Period. It is a teaching that was unheard of until Luther "reformed" the Church...which included wrenching 7 books from the Bible. He wanted to remove Revelation (Tim LaHaye thanks God...and his wallet...that Luther was unsuccessful in this), and the book of James. [quote]

If you look at Christianity having so many labels, then I'm afraid you are probally still looking at it from the outside. [/quote]

Rather judgemental, don't you think? So you are now the judge and jury of who is "in the Church" and who isn't?

Ratger UN-scriptural, I would think.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 23, 2011 08:28AM)
I didn't say no such thing, and this is exactly why this kind of discussion is not allowed. It sure doesn't take long for someone to start putting down the Protestants, and yes, I will even admit that most people who come here to put down the Protestant church are Catholics. No one is putting down the Catholic church. If you are not aware that there are heresies in every church, and actually believe that the catholic church is the only true church, which is what I hear a lot of, then I disagree with you, but don't put words into m y mouth, or be quick to anger and judgement.


Here is my defense to your profound accusations. "Just because Martin Luther exposed the heresies of the Catholic Church doesn`t mean the Catholic Church is the only church to have been poisoned with lies. Nor does it make it the oldest."

I meant no insult by last post, but boy are you quick to do it.

Vlad has no interrest in Gos[pel magic, but feels a need to represent his beliefs where the majority do not share his beliefs. We have been extremely kind to Vlad. However, one confrontation and Vlad flips out and says he's never posting here again.

I have had many posts removed, but I don't go threatning that I'm never going to post here ever again.

After Christ was resurrected the first church was started. The Catholic Church is the first organized religion. It is not the first church, and if you knew what church meant you would agree with me.

Anyhow, I will explain that I was not accusing Vlad on being on the outside of Christianity, it's his observation of it I was saying was from the outside. He seeing Christianity with a bunch of labels, and feels a need to let us know that there is more to Christianity than Protestants.

I personally have enjoyed reading Vlad's post, but in all honesty they have nothing to do with Gospel Magic. He himself said to us that he has no interrest in Gospel Magic.

Anyhoot, I'm having too much of a great day to allow another person with far out accusations and anger to upset me this morning.

Dan
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Jun 23, 2011 09:00AM)
Let's see. You say you meant no insult. Yet you say that the Catholic Church was in heresy. That is a patent insult to any member of the Catholic faith...INCLUDING the very FOUNDER of Gospel Magic, Fr. John Bosco (remember...we've had THIS discussion before!).

If you didn't mean to say that Vlad, himself, was outside of Christianity, you sure made it sound like it.

You claim no ill will, yet when you posted about the Catholic Church, you used the words "heresy" "poison" and "lies".


Hmmmm.


As to the "true" meaning of Church, that's exactly why I love the Catholic Church...it looks at the FULLNESS of meaning, not just the surface. Like the Scriptures, words have several layers of meaning...and they ALL need to be peeled away in order to understand Truth.

On the surface, "church" means the people...the Body of Christ. But we also know from Scripture, the Christ organized an ORGANIZED Church, with an Apostle as its head. The Apostles then appointed Bishops and Priests and Deacons. IT'S ALL IN SCRIPTURE.

I will not entertain the folly of this argument any longer. I will watch this forum and respond to any lies, falsehoods, accusations, etc. But my ministry is not to lead Protestants back to the fullness of the Faith...many thousands each year are doing that themselves.
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Jun 23, 2011 10:17AM)
I think Dan's point was the fact that all other churches (including the catholic church) have had or still do have errors within them. Instead of the word error, he used the terms heresy, poison and lies but still with regards to all the other churches as well as the catholic church (if I understand him correctly). I would rather discover truths about God through the scriptures "IT'S ALL IN SCRIPTURE" than holding fast to traditions of men. I think Jesus confronted the experts of His day concerning similar issues. There is much to learn and appreciate from those that devote their lives to the study of God's word, not taking anything away from the teachers among us, etc but I am thankful to have The Bible to read for myself. I think we tend to make things too complicated, there really isn't a cookie cutter appraoch. Especially when looking at "the church" on a global scale. God loves us, we know this or discover this and love Him back. Do we? Or do we ignore Him and live selfish independant lives, which ultimately places us apart from Him for eternity.

I really don't think I have any "stage illusions". I have many effects that play from the stage but do not own any of those wonderful magical boxes that do mind boggling things.

Glen
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Jun 23, 2011 10:34AM)
Glen...Scripture itself is not the end. Scripture MUST be interpreted. There MUST be an authority for that interpretation. We see where "individual interpretation has gotten us...33,000+ denominations.

It was the AUTHORITY of the Catholic Church tat decided what books were inspired...that is historical fact. So why is her authority on the interpretation of the same not good enough?

There is an old adage...and it holds true: The Scriptures did not give us the Church...the Church gave us the Scriptures.

The bible itself tells us that it is THE CHURCH that is the pillar of Truth.


I am working on some stage illusions...trying to build a full-length show. However, my show will not be an outright "gospel show", which is, in my opinion, too limiting as to audience. Rather, I will produce a clean, family-friendly show that anyone would be proud to bring their kids too.
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Jun 23, 2011 12:43PM)
God created His church and He gave us the Scriptures. There is God and then there are believers, all believers everywhere that claim the name of Jesus. Those that believe and have received salvation through Christ are His church. "The church" is not supposed to be a third entity or some kind of mysterious filter.

Good luck with your show. I plan on reporting on my experiences in the parks a little later on in the year. I have been invited back for the third year in a row to an event in San Pedro called Light At The Lighthouse that will occur in September. I will be getting ready for that also. Take care.

Glen
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 24, 2011 08:52AM)
Thanks Glen. You are precisely right. There are errors in every church. Some say heresies, some say errors. Some say corrections, some say rebuke. :)

There are many different denominations represented here yet, we seem to be able to find the common ground between us without feeling like one denomination is not represented enough here. In fact, I know I am not even aware of what denominations most here are. It doesn't matter to me what denomination anyone here belongs to. We are all the same in the eyes of God. God doesn't play favoritism.

I've been accussed twice of the same thing from the same person. You'd think the only one who should be upset is me. (lol)

I'm just glad that most of us here can find common ground for the interrest of Gospel magic.

I just finished watching a bio on Michelangelo. Very interresting story considering he was around near the reformation. :)
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 24, 2011 09:06AM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-23 10:00, Mike Maturen wrote:


I will not entertain the folly of this argument any longer. I will watch this forum and respond to any lies, falsehoods, accusations, etc. But my ministry is not to lead Protestants back to the fullness of the Faith...many thousands each year are doing that themselves.
[/quote]

See, that's what I mean about labels? Just remember Mike, you are taking a stab at others faiths, no one has taken a stab at the Catholic church. Just a little push is all it takes to get you all worked up and ready to tell all us Protestants that we are wrong, and that the Catholic church is this, and the Catholic church is that.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Jun 24, 2011 12:37PM)
Hmmm. This wasn't a stab Dan (I didn't say you were in heresy, at least!). I simply stated that I am not here to convert you...and also stated the simple fact that many thousands of Protestants are finding their way into the ancient Church without us doing any real "evangelizing".
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jun 24, 2011 05:50PM)
It would be nice to get back to the topic of stage illusions in gospel shows.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 25, 2011 04:20AM)
Thanks Donald :)
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jun 25, 2011 10:15AM)
Two other stage illusions I haven't seen mentioned on this thread are the [url=http://www.fairchildmagic.com/fairchild_magic_055.htm]Cross Illusion[/url] (built by Fairchild Magic) and the [url=http://www.hanklee.org/xcart/product.php?productid=3441&cat=0&page=1]Ring Illusion[/url] (sold by Hank Lee's Magic Factory).

I think that Duane Laflin performs the Cross Illusion, and that David and Teesha Laflin perform the Ring Illusion.

One of these illusions can use a volunteer from the audience, while the other illusion uses your assistant.

Do gospel performers use those illusions to illustrate how we are set free from the bondage of sin (through a relationship with Christ), or for some other message?

I don't have these 2 illusions, but they are illusions I've considered adding.

- Donald

P.S. In my 30 minute gospel show, it's mostly magic, with no stage illusions. In my 45 minute gospel show, it's mostly magic with one stage illusion at the end of the show. In my 60 minute show, it's mostly magic with two stage illusions in the show (one in the middle, and one at the end of the show).
Message: Posted by: revmike (Jun 26, 2011 07:56AM)
Personally I love the Cross Illusion by Joe Fairchild, but admittedly, I only use this for big and special shows as is the case with most of my bigger pieces.

I am glad the thread returned to the subject of illusions. I have observed over the past that many of the posts here can get quite argumentative and yes, even "preachy".

I hope we can use our posts to illustrate how each and every one of us can learn to use our magic, puppets, etc. to the glory of God rather than engaging in long theological arguments. Now don't misunderstand me, there is indeed a time and place for such discussion, and these are indeed important points, but it is probably best not to engage in them here.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Jun 26, 2011 08:53AM)
I have only see the Cross Illusion once...and it was in a not-so-well performed YouTube Video. It looks like it has the potential to be a very powerful illusion...but I'd like to see a better version or two of it before I decided.

Donald...which Ring Illusion are you talking about?
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Jun 26, 2011 08:56AM)
Never mind...followed the link you provided for the Ring Illusion...DUH!

Looks like it has great potential. I would even consider this for my secular show instead of the Sub Trunk. Are there any YouTube videos of it that you are aware of? I'd like to see real world use first.
Message: Posted by: stempleton (Jun 26, 2011 10:51AM)
Duane Laflin performed the Fairchild Cross Illusion for those at the ADVANCE conference in 2009. Joe was also a vendor there, and I agree his quality is fantastic. My response to the performance, and others in my immediate area, was that the routine was very good, but the climax was a bit flat. The props description that the ropes "fly off" is a bit hyped. Perhaps it seemed lacking because the cross is sooo large/dramatic and obviously Duane is a master at weaving the evangelical storyline around it. I would like to see the ring illusion real world as well, Mike. Alas, both items are far above my budget, but I can dream, can't I :).

PS: Barry Mitchell confided to us during the conference one of Duane's suggestions to him was to think big. I think this is a very valid topic for those interested in adding something larger to a gospel performance. Thanks for bringing it back on point.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jun 26, 2011 02:08PM)
To watch the Ring Illusion being performed, watch the "10 Minute Promotional Video" on David and Teesha Laflin's website:

http://www.davidandteesha.com/media/video-gallery/

I assume this is the same model that is sold on Hank Lee's Magic Factory website. I think there might be more that one builder of this illusion, according to other threads on The Magic Café.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Jun 26, 2011 08:22PM)
The Web would be a great illusion and it comes in one case and will travel easily. You certainly could use it for a gospel presentation how the enemy will try to hold you back, or differnt things that keep you from going forward for Christ...fear, lack of faith, intimidation and so forth. Here's the link to it...I use to have one and it's one slick illusion.

http://www.dream-illusions.com/new-illusions?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=1&category_id=1
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Jun 26, 2011 08:37PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-26 15:08, Donald Dunphy wrote:
To watch the Ring Illusion being performed, watch the "10 Minute Promotional Video" on David and Teesha Laflin's website:

http://www.davidandteesha.com/media/video-gallery/

I assume this is the same model that is sold on Hank Lee's Magic Factory website. I think there might be more that one builder of this illusion, according to other threads on The Magic Café.

- Donald
[/quote]

Thanks for posting this Donald!
Message: Posted by: Nick Astle (Jun 27, 2011 01:40PM)
The Pastor in me wants to discuss some of the theological implications that have been made in this thread.

However, the magician in me is glad this thread got back on topic!

Personally, I enjoyed watching "thebeaky's" Sub Trunk routine. As a guy who is JUST getting into Gospel magic (the magic part, not the Gospel part!), I love these larger Stage Illusions and look forward to practicing and getting some experience behind me so that I can work my way up to Illusions like these!

I also enjoyed the discussion from both sides of the Guillotine routine. I would have to agree with the side that performs these types of illusions. But as I'm sure you know and don't need me to tell you, these performances obviously need to be prayed about so that God is the one bringing the message, and not us. But as "gruesome" as this illusion seems, that shouldn't be a reason not to do them. After all, Scripture's most powerful truth, the basis for our faith - the Crucifixion - is incredibly gruesome.

My take on it is - seek God and examine yourself honestly (Duh, right?) If you are right with God, he will show you if he wants you to stop performing this illusion. It's not up to Vlad or others to tell you to stop, since we are not trying to convince Vlad (and others) that they should START using the Guillotine illusion.

There. I am a tad long-winded. I guess that's the Pastor in me again ;)
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Jun 27, 2011 03:07PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-27 14:40, Nick Astle wrote:

After all, Scripture's most powerful truth, the basis for our faith - the Crucifixion - is incredibly gruesome. [/quote]

...and Truth be told, we "whitewash" how gruesome it REALLY was. The pictures and paintings and statues are actually pretty "woosified" in my opinion. The portrayal of the crucifixion by Mel Gibson in "The Passion of the Christ" was a little closer to what really happened. Many centuries ago in the Catholic Church, many of the crucifixes behind the altars were VERY graphic and gruesome...quite bloody, actually. I wish they had never changed this...sometimes I think we need this gruesome reminder of what our Lord went through on our behalf.

[quote]
There. I am a tad long-winded. I guess that's the Pastor in me again ;)
[/quote]

As a former protestant minister...I can identify! When I said "in conclusion", I didn't necessarily mean right away!
Message: Posted by: Nick Astle (Jun 28, 2011 12:22AM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-27 16:07, Mike Maturen wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-06-27 14:40, Nick Astle wrote:

After all, Scripture's most powerful truth, the basis for our faith - the Crucifixion - is incredibly gruesome. [/quote]

...and Truth be told, we "whitewash" how gruesome it REALLY was. The pictures and paintings and statues are actually pretty "woosified" in my opinion. The portrayal of the crucifixion by Mel Gibson in "The Passion of the Christ" was a little closer to what really happened. Many centuries ago in the Catholic Church, many of the crucifixes behind the altars were VERY graphic and gruesome...quite bloody, actually. I wish they had never changed this...sometimes I think we need this gruesome reminder of what our Lord went through on our behalf.

[quote]
There. I am a tad long-winded. I guess that's the Pastor in me again ;)
[/quote]

As a former protestant minister...I can identify! When I said "in conclusion", I didn't necessarily mean right away!
[/quote]

Surely this is not exclusive to protestants alone haha.

On the topic of illusions, anyone else here guilty of seeing favourite illusions and thinking "I wonder how I could adapt that patter to have a Christian message?"

Or is this simply part of what we do? Personally, I enjoy the creativity in it, I like it. Sometimes I'll do it even if I'm sure I would never perform an illusion!
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Jun 28, 2011 08:32AM)
You know, I don't really do that. Usually it happens with something I already have and I will get like an inspiration or something. I will be practicing or performing the effect and it will dawn on me how a certain verse fits. But that's only the first step, developing a complete routine takes time. I know I'm on the right track when I continue with it from start to finish and it stays on point . I love when this happens.

Glen
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Jun 28, 2011 08:33AM)
Nick,

I think all magician's do this in some form or fashion...perhaps not for a gospel message...I think we are always thinking about how we can adapt patter to our own unique audience. For instance, Daryl's effect, "Papa Rabbit Hits The Big Time" has patter that is geared for an adult audience, yet you can adapt it for a younger audience...or even for a kid's show, or gospel show.

Heck, I can't go to a garage sale, second-hand store, or just about anywhere without thinking about how the stuff on the shelf could be used for a magic trick. It's a curse, I tell you...a curse!

...and you're right about long-windedness not just being a protestant thing. I have since converted to the Catholic faith. Most Priests tend to keep their homilies anywhere from 10-15 minutes. However, our previous Priest was from Nigeria...and HE would preach for 20-25 minutes...and once in a while, would go on a marathon! I miss him. He now is back in Nigeria at a parish there. A couple of weeks ago, the Cathedral of the Diocese of Maiduguri (where he lives and works) was bombed.

Please keep him (Fr. William Tizhe Livinus) and his Bishop (Bp. Oliver Dashe Doeme) and all the Nigerian Christians in your prayers...they are under serious attack.

Okay...back to magic.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jun 28, 2011 10:39AM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-26 21:22, Terry Owens wrote:
The Web would be a great illusion and it comes in one case and will travel easily. You certainly could use it for a gospel presentation how the enemy will try to hold you back, or differnt things that keep you from going forward for Christ...fear, lack of faith, intimidation and so forth. Here's the link to it...I use to have one and it's one slick illusion.

http://www.dream-illusions.com/new-illusions?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=1&category_id=1
[/quote]

A person could do the same message with [url=http://www.smmagic.com/illusions/thrusteel/index.htm]Dan Wolfe's Thru Steel Illusion[/url], I would imagine.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Slough Illusions (May 6, 2013 02:25PM)
I have the ABC Stage blocks myself and have 3 routines/messages that go with it. What do you think is another diverse stage illusion that can have multiple applications, and can be done without a trained assistant?(I don't have an assistant so I would like something volunteer friendly or something I can do myself)any thoughts?