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Topic: Is Harry Potter to blame for the rising interest in magic? Whats everyone's opinion?
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 16, 2007 09:15PM)
The editors of the Linking Rings have said it once and I will say it again, Magic, without a doubt has gone through a reniassance. the biggest rise of interest since the 1800's. But why is the public suddenly became interested in our world of magic?
The answer has to be either Harry Potter or David Blaine. Harry has definitly got us reading books again and Blaine has captured the imagination of the entire planet.
The real sad news is that this could just be a fad that people will outgrow. Once Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows make its debute in theaters as a movie, there is a good chance that, once the Potter craze is over, the publics interest in magic will fall greatly. whats your all thoughts on this?
Message: Posted by: Jim Poor (Feb 16, 2007 09:34PM)
I think that a combination of both influences probably contributes. Will the last Harry Potter book but the death of the magic renaissance? Probably not. First, there are the other influences, Blaine, Angel, etc. Also, I think Harry Potter will remain influential through movies for a long time, like Star Wars.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 16, 2007 09:57PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-16 22:34, Jim Poor wrote:
I think Harry Potter will remain influential through movies for a long time, like Star Wars.
[/quote]

I believe you could be right. Epics such as Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars have attendancy to become legends in the world of film making, but if there ever comes along something new, the once was popular trend with come to a halt, it won't be come popular nor will it loss the popularity that it gained, it will stick with the generation that lived it and become a part of history when a new generation rises. (example: Jurassic Park was popular with those that grew up in the years before 2002, those that aren't included in that year hardly know what the film is about. (( I will be watching Jurassic Park sometime in the year 2020 and my offspring will ask what the big deal is))).

Posted: Feb 16, 2007 11:07pm
The Traditional Magicians Wands ( the black wands with white tips) have lost interest in magicians now since Harry Potter. Now everyone is using wands that add a little mystic aurora to them. it has gotten to the point where I look at my old Traditional Wand and say "what the heck?" the new wizard wands have got my interest now.
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 17, 2007 02:09AM)
I repeat this every other seconds on this forum and wrote a book (in French-Compendium Sortilegionis)) about the subject. Harry Potter, the Lord of the Rings and other movies have recreated an interest for magic and specifically the genre of bizarre/storytelling magic. Nor Blaine of David Copperfield have the same success as HP and the vision of magic within our audience, definitively changes.
But it will be a mistake to copy the image of HP, it's both too late and irrelevant.
I seriously advice to explore the world of dark and adult fairy tales, legends and myth now...
And not only magic changes, but also the interest poker/cheating demonstration with the arrival of WSOP, WPT, EPT and other competitions on television. Have you seen the last James Bond ?
And mentalism with... well it's in Hauntiques.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Feb 17, 2007 05:34AM)
Never underrate the influence of Harry Potter.

When I moved to Germany in 1995, I had trouble finding a decend pumpkin for Halloween. These days, when Halloween comes around I not only see pumpkins all over the place, I see Halloween decorations and costumes all over the place as well. This year I even had Trick-or-Treaters. No kidding.

Now, you could say that there is some other cause at work. But what would it be? I say it's the influence of Harry Potter.

As for magic: well, I have also yet to meet a single person here who knows who David Blaine is. And if I were to run into someone who did, it would almost certainly be because of his stunts and not because of magic.

So, IMO, chalk up the blame to HP.

Gruss,
Jeff
Goettingen
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Feb 17, 2007 06:28AM)
The strange thing is - in my most humble opinion - is that fantasy-readers (a group that grew in number since HP and LOTR) know a lot more about "the magical worldview" than most magicians do. I think this is just a tad embarrassing, although many magicians will shout out that they don't need to know about all this esoteric stuff... They're doing entertaining tricks, right. Right.
But, since the title "magician" is used, I think it would be a natural thing to know about magic.
So, I believe the curator is right... magicians should explore the world of fairytales, mythology etc...
I would recommend the enchanted world series by Time Life books as a good head start.
And... Since I do understand French, I'm off to look for the compendium sortilegionis...
Message: Posted by: handa (Feb 17, 2007 06:28AM)
I think that the growing interest in fantasy and escapism has more to do with our current culture's reaction to more complex technologies, the speed of communication of information, and some really scary "realities" that we see on a day to day basis.

HP is a part of that wave, but not the force that generated the wave.

Chris
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 17, 2007 09:20AM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-17 07:28, Ringo wrote:

So, I believe the curator is right... magicians should explore the world of fairytales, mythology etc...
I would recommend the enchanted world series by Time Life books as a good head start.
[/quote]

I just got a wonderful idea, why don't us as magicians create our own world, in other words we make our own goverment, our own school systems, our own vocabulary, our own history, invent our own sports and set up a community away from "muggles".
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Feb 17, 2007 10:48AM)
Magicians in general (not counting most bizarrists, I hope) are woefully ignorant of magic(k). Of course, many of them are woefully ignorant of magic (conjuring) itself. Magick is not illogical; it has its own laws and consistency, and I believe this should always be taken into account when performing.

The beauty of the Harry Potter stories is the consistency of its theoretical, that is, magical, background.
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 17, 2007 11:05AM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-17 10:20, ibm_usa wrote:
I just got a wonderful idea, why don't us as magicians create our own world, in other words we make our own goverment, our own school systems, our own vocabulary, our own history, invent our own sports and set up a community away from "muggles".
[/quote]

http://www.surnateum.org is my answer to that...
Within the walls of my museum lies another world, another History of different humans, a world parallel to the world of muggles.

Posted: Feb 17, 2007 2:08pm
Ringo, you can find the Compendium here: http://www.cc-editions.fr/livres-de-magie/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=compendium&x=0&y=0
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Feb 17, 2007 01:32PM)
Thanks, Curator !
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Feb 17, 2007 01:46PM)
I wouldn't dismiss Blaine too much in the equation, nor Criss Angel even.
I remember the days after the first couple of Blaine specials, people were talking about it at work - I mean, really talking. I don't recall any of that reaction from a Doug Henning or David Copperfield special. People just don't relate to that big distant stage anymore, it's too remote, too suspect, it's too lofty, too.. elitist, even. Look at rock'n'roll in past 15 years; gone are the hair glam days and outlandish clothing, it went back to the grunge/garage band look, where everyone is pretty much equal, and even though grunge is, itself, a bit pass, remnants still remain.

More truthfully though, I think it's a number of simultaneous factors: Blaine, Harry Potter, C. Angel, the Internet, etc.. all combined at roughly the same time period.
I sort of disagree with the technology angle however - technology has been rapidly advancing for decades without generating any interest in fantasy, only SciFi; however, it might contribute to magic and fantasy sticking around more; wait til people see "eInk" and stuff in person, the first thing they'll think of is "The Daily Prophet". ;-)
I welcome the change, especially in wands.. I never liked those black white-tipped things.
One thing I have noticed: almost all the kids books now in the book store are fantasy based, it's just amazing.. Harry Potter, I believe, can take credit for that.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 17, 2007 04:00PM)
If it ain't Harry, Criss or David, it has to be the sudden increase of magic being featured in movies. Lets take a look at the films that include magic
Films:
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
Harry Potter and the Order of the Pheonix
Click
The Prestige
Night at the museum
The Illusionist
Arrested development (TV show)
Now you see it ( Walt Disney production)
My date with the Presidents Daughter

so the media must be 80% of the problem, but what about the other 20%?
Message: Posted by: Doriangray (Feb 18, 2007 04:06PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-17 03:09, The Curator wrote:

(...) But it will be a mistake to copy the image of HP, it's both too late and irrelevant.
I seriously advice to explore the world of dark and adult fairy tales, legends and myth now...
And mentalism with... well it's in Hauntiques.
[/quote]

Yes ! It's what I work on !!! Adult Fairy tales.
Even if read your Books dear Curator, I asking my self if the audience of movies and books will paid a performer at home to see fantastic magic?
I would like perform at customer's home for 5 at 7 guests ( Seance style). My show will have a strong style and people don't have trailer (as for the movie) to know if they want see this story and/or could pay a such show (seem often too expensive for them)?

I think I will do what Docc Hilford advice: make a small exhibition.

And I know that with the per 2 per and all numeric copies, the lives show will regain interest.
As David Bowie said: the artiste of the coming century's lives will be the main incoming; the albums only a link with artists and audience still the next concert where the particular artiste work will be share and..be payed.
Recording will be easy to have, being cheap, and real wealthy entertainment will be the live.

But again are peoples ready to trust and payed the price for Bizarre Magic, not as divination or spirit seance, but as theater show? Like a Live Burton movie.

The Bizzare magicians know what's the reality of the market. They are in activity. But me in my workshop and my prototype show...some time I doubt.
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Feb 18, 2007 11:54PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-17 17:00, ibm_usa wrote:
If it ain't Harry, Criss or David, it has to be the sudden increase of magic being featured in movies. Lets take a look at the films that include magic
Films:
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

*snip*
[/quote]
But you just listed two Harry Potter films right off the bat !
You can't "include" what you just "excluded".. (" If it ain't Harry " ..) ;)

Point taken though, there does seem to be more general interest, especially with Prestige and The Illusionist.
You might also want to throw the Lord of the Rings and Narnia films in there.
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 19, 2007 01:13AM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-18 17:06, Doriangray wrote:
But again are peoples ready to trust and payed the price for Bizarre Magic, not as divination or spirit seance, but as theater show? Like a Live Burton movie.

[/quote]

At least, they pay me... far better than any table hopper in Europe.
There are so many venues for strange storytelling magic, a lot more than table hopping. Most of the time I play both classical close-up/parlour magic and storytelling/bizarre magic during the same evening but not at the same time.
And my shows pack small and play big (at least most of them), so I can easily travel by plane with a minimum props... Or do large scale exhibition of part of the Surnateum collections.
Message: Posted by: Doriangray (Feb 19, 2007 06:11AM)
Ok.
That's a really interesting subject.
The format of the show depend of the Time/Area/Audience.
So in the evening, where and when are you playing? At customer's home? Hall Theater or small theater? After the dinner?
In Europe? In U.S?
What are your conditions?
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 19, 2007 09:00AM)
Private parties, at the client's home.
Otherwise, usually in a very nice setting: private room in a castle or an old house, small theaters, ...
I always have my own space and the guests come to my show(s). There are so many venues and possibilities that's impossible to resume.
Message: Posted by: Doriangray (Feb 19, 2007 03:22PM)
OK.
That could seem odd but that help me.
That show me it's possible...the path.

Most of them contact you by The Surnateum, I guess.

(Thank to Ze Konservatif).
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Feb 19, 2007 03:47PM)
Curator,
I'm thrilled to read that there is a market for such performances. I just wonder how you started out...
Message: Posted by: gsidhe (Feb 19, 2007 03:48PM)
I don't know if HP is really a cause of the magic resurgence, but I think it is another symptom of what is causing a resurgence.
I read a book along time ago about the psychology of horror and fantasy films. There always seems to be in incresed interest in horror and fantasy during or right after a war or major tragedy.
The reasoning for this, is that in times of social turmoil people are looking for an escape that is as far from reality as they can get. Dramas and comedies just don't cut it. Fantasy films frequently take people out of this reality, and put them into one with problems that can be solved.
Stage Magic can take the pressure off of folks in two ways. 1- It can immerse them into a fantasy world and allow them to leave their normal horrors behind. 2- There is a certain nostalga assosciated with a lot of magic.
I think it is all a catharsis stemming from the current hostilities in the world. HP did not cause it, but parallels the magic resurgence.
Just my thoughts,
Gwyd
Message: Posted by: Doriangray (Feb 19, 2007 04:39PM)
Burger wrote an article about Horror and stage magic.
I don't remenber where...
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 20, 2007 01:28AM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-19 16:47, Ringo wrote:
Curator,
I'm thrilled to read that there is a market for such performances. I just wonder how you started out...
[/quote]

I started by card and close-up magic.
Every magician I met in Belgium was absolutely allergic to the idea of magic: "the trick was the only thing".
One day, I entered an "esoteric shop" and found 2 hoodoo dolls and thought it was far more funny to do Hoodoo as I do, than the classical card trick. Voodoo was born.
Most of the people in the audience ask the same questions: Can you read cards ?
I devised Zodiac.
Another day I enter a coin shop and found small antique Egyptian scarabs. They weren't that expensive and I bought one. There was more magic in this small object than in all the routines I did at the time. As a big fan of horror/fantastic movies and books, I created my first Hauntique. Today I have a huuuuuuuge collection of rare and magical artifacts.
I started as a close-up performer in a small restaurant. I had to entertain small groups of people during a long time*. For that reason, I couldn't stick to card and coin tricks; and I went in various directions: close-up, cardmagic, cheating stuff, storytelling, mentalism... and created the Blitz and the phantom technique along the way.
When I started professional work for companies, it was almost only table hopping (and I hate table hopping). Little by little, I forced people to accept more parlour kind of magic and I introduced separate bizarre and storytelling material.
And increase my prices...
Today, I don't perform anymore table hopping.
This is my promo:
[quote]X Christian Chelman offers a range of shows and events firmly rooted in the world of magic and illusion. Renowned in Europe and the United States as a first-class, sleight-of-hand artist and a master of imaginative and fanciful conjuring, he stands at the very summit of his profession. Equally at home in intimate settings and full-scale exhibitions, Christian Chelman performs an amazing variety of shows covering a wide range of themes.
X Delirium Magicum is 50 minutes of entertaining and mind-boggling close-up magic ideal for groups of between 20 and 50 individuals.
X The Cabinet of Curiosities is a 1-hour event showcasing the haunted objects and legends in the Surnateum, the Museum of Supernatural History (www.surnateum.org). This is real magic at its finest, featuring weird and wonderful tales worthy of a first-class gothic storyteller.
X "Expose by a Reformed Gambler" takes you into the fascinating twilight world of high-stakes gamblers and shameless cheats. Place your bets! Who would have thought that there are actually people out there who might try to take advantage of youK? Forewarned is forearmed! This show features one of the most singular items in the Surnateum's extensive collection
http://www.surnateum.org/English/surnateum/collection/particulieres/tricheur.htm
X The Magic Box (suitable for adults and children aged 8 and up) is an intriguing combination of magic and storytelling, a veritable voyage of discovery based on the most fabulous magic set ever devised. Find out more about the Magic Box on the Surnateum website
http://www.surnateum.org/English/surnateum/collection/particulieres/magic_box.htm
X Other events can be organised upon request, from straightforward entertainment to a full-scale exhibition of the many wonders housed at the Surnateum.[/quote]

*My longest performance for the same group is 7 hours non stop. I've done it twice in my career.
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Feb 20, 2007 01:32AM)
Fascinating to read that there is room for magic instead of trickery... and that in Belgium.
You have my vote for one of the most inspiring posts I read in here... Thanks !
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 20, 2007 01:44AM)
But remember this: Bizarre storytelling magic is extremely difficult to do... well!
And there are a lot of pathways to explore.
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Feb 20, 2007 02:17AM)
I'm quiete aware of this, yes... but an intrigueing journey it is !
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 20, 2007 03:11AM)
Other venues include Large scale event (years ago we did the IM-Files for Ingram Micro, I booked Max Maven, Mary Tomich and other magicians for the event and I performed Time Trap for the occasion), Renaissance fairs (in Belgium, medieval fairs), gothic parties, mystery tours, museums and more.
A lot of new venues, were table hopping doesn't fit at all.
And I'm no more consider as an entertainer only, but also as an artist. I's very different.
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Feb 20, 2007 03:25AM)
Suddenly I feel very small ! ;)
No, honest it's a goal worth going for... I'm aware of the medieval fairs, but I can't immediately think of mystery tours and gothic parties (well, I CAN imagine the latter, having attended many, but I suppose you don't mean THAT type of gothic party).
Thanks for the ideas !
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 20, 2007 05:20AM)
And Ghost Stories evenings, ...
Not to mention the most classical bithday, mariage, halloween, Saint Valentin and other parties.
I created wonderful effects on the theme of St Valentin, nice openers for any medieval/renaissance event and more.
The sky's the limit... and the talent too.
Bizarre storytelling magic opens a lot of new venues, even for customers fed by low level table hoppers.
Message: Posted by: Doriangray (Feb 20, 2007 05:40AM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-20 02:44, The Curator wrote:
But remember this: Bizarre storytelling magic is extremely difficult to do... well!
And there are a lot of pathways to explore.
[/quote]

Being a Magician of this kind ( mean being really a Magician if I dare!) keep all your mind: all you read, watch, meditate, pray...All what you do feed your work. It's to approach the Magic as Art and our life as an artiste life.

An artiste read a poem, see a land scape and feel the need to paint something. Off course, he learn how to painting. But some time he want to cut his hand by hanger, because she don't give on the board what he feel, what he want to share. Work again say the heart...don't cut the hand.
Being a good painter is his obsession. But not to be a champion, but to share with quality and deep. To make travel the soul. Not just excite them.

That the difference between stunt and Magic! Almost time people approach Magic as stunt performance. But stunt is not Magic at all ( As Burger said in a Genii article 'Performing Stunt & Performing Magic').

To be a Magician, clever is not in of! Read all, interesting in all, living all and finally work to share our vision with generosity and quality.

Too difficult? Lot of skills required? Lot of work?

Well, that's true. But when you know that no other way, you keep going the path, being high respectful of our audience. As The Curator said, when you keep one hour to other you MUST offer something of exceptional quality. I share this point of view. wasting the time of the audience is a sin.

That why I am still in my workshop and not yet sharing with the audience.
Message: Posted by: M@gic Man (Feb 20, 2007 06:05AM)
On the harry Potter theme, I was in a restaraunt the other night and my friend and myself performed a few effect for one of the waitress's and she immediatley reffered to my friend as being a 'Harry Potter'. It kinda made us feel all of a sudden quite stupid, as she was comparing us to a boy wizard. Made me doubt how much magic is actually aprecciated by some people these days. Gone are the days when I was younger and people would compare me to David Copperfield, or such, but now as others have mentioned already on this topic, Harry Potter seems to have become the most publicly recognised/popular magical figure.

End rant.
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Feb 20, 2007 06:10AM)
[quote]
Bizarre storytelling magic opens a lot of new venues, even for customers fed by low level table hoppers.
[/quote]

I was once talking with an agent who said there was no demand for magicians, mainly because of the table hopping, assistant sawing, bunny abusing image they have.
So I do believe that there is a market for magic in the literal sense of the word (you've given plenty of examples), but perhaps it's also so that the word must get out first. Most people I know have never considered hiring an artist like this because they have never heard of the artform.
I honestly and deeply believe that bizarre magick (& storytelling magic) should claim its rightful place, not as mainstream entertainment, but as a performing art.
Unfortunaly, I think in the "universal mind" (outside our little magic world) it just doesn't exist yet. There are exceptions, of course, the curator being a big one, bur for a large part... well, it's a tabula rasa... which has its advantages too (this area hasn't been spoiled yet).
Like I said before, I think that real magic is to be found within these (perhaps)shady areas... and it's time to come out of the (broom)closet.
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 20, 2007 11:00AM)
The agent is just stupid, a good agent can sell a good product/artist.
It's his job to promote you and how unique and different you are.
I have the same agent for years and he does his job well.
AMHO, bizarre magic is not another branch of illusionnism, but another and wider way to approach the subject of illusionnism.
Another simple advice: Quit any belgian magic club you're member of, don't mix with losers*. Do what you really want to do, not what other tell you.
Especially if they are no professionals and don't make a living performing for real.

*Those considering the red snapper to be the best trick in the world (no kidding).
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Feb 20, 2007 11:27AM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-20 07:05, M@gic Man wrote:
On the harry Potter theme, I was in a restaraunt the other night and my friend and myself performed a few effect for one of the waitress's and she immediatley reffered to my friend as being a 'Harry Potter'. It kinda made us feel all of a sudden quite stupid, as she was comparing us to a boy wizard. Made me doubt how much magic is actually aprecciated by some people these days. Gone are the days when I was younger and people would compare me to David Copperfield, or such, but now as others have mentioned already on this topic, Harry Potter seems to have become the most publicly recognised/popular magical figure.
End rant.
[/quote]

Pardon me, but personally I think you are looking at it entirely backwards, from a bizarrist' point of view.
You'd rather be compared to a known trickster than a "real"(albeit fictional) wizard ?

I'd rather be compared to someone fictional who had real magic powers, myself.
I'll bet most of us here would. The last thing I'd want to be compared to is a stereotypical stage illusionist, no matter how famous.
Why are we into magic, anyway ? For fame and fortune and glory ?
Put it this way: would you rather be remembered for being [i]magical,[/i] or clever? I see a distinct difference, though the two can certainly overlap.

I'll probably step on someones' toes here, but to me, Stage Illusionists just are not "magical", they're clever. No one in their right mind, no matter how powerful the suspension of disbelief, ever believes for a nanosecond that someone has just been sawed in half alive, for example; they applaud the imagery, the trickery, and the cleverness of the illusion. That's it. It's a very different level.
There, the "mystery" lies not in the contemplation of the unexplored secrets of nature and the possibilities of forces yet undiscovered or uncategorized, but solely in, "How'd he do that ? That was amazing looking.."
If that is what you're into, fine, but it sure isn't what I'd call bizarre magic.
I'd take it as a complement to be called a Harry Potter. At least he was a "real" wizard, in a magilogical sense.
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Feb 20, 2007 01:38PM)
Curator, point taken...

Mystician, I must agree, it's better to be a wizard than to be a trickster. The first offers an experience of magic, the latter the experience of being fooled (hopefully in an entertaining way)

Whether the waitress's remark about HP was a compliment or not depends on the context, though. Only m@gicman can now this for sure.
Message: Posted by: the AuditOrr (Feb 20, 2007 02:52PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-16 23:07, ibm_usa wrote:
The Traditional Magicians Wands ( the black wands with white tips) have lost interest in magicians now since Harry Potter. Now everyone is using wands that add a little mystic aurora to them. it has gotten to the point where I look at my old Traditional Wand and say "what the heck?" the new wizard wands have got my interest now.
[/quote]

Anyone actually use one of those wands that they sell from the movie? I believe an example can be found on http://www.noblecollection.com
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Feb 20, 2007 02:56PM)
Harry Potter is fantasy and has very little, if anything, to do with inspiring people to perform magic. My 12 yr. old grand daughter has the books, posters and other Potter products but has no desire to perform magic.

In my opinion it's Blaine who initially inspired folks to learn magic by bringing close up and impromptu type magic into living rooms.
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Feb 20, 2007 04:02PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-20 15:52, Fraser Orr-Brown wrote:
[quote]
Anyone actually use one of those wands that they sell from the movie? I believe an example can be found on http://www.noblecollection.com
[/quote]

Yep, guilty, sort of .. hehe.. I got mine from Alivans.com though. They come in the box and have a drawstring bag and everything.
I got one for my son through the "Wandmakers Guide" book, available at any Borders or Barnes & Noble. Originally, I got him the el-cheapo official Harry Potter wand, it's plastic, cost about $5.
I got the "wrong" wood however, since I got my Alivans wand through a retailer and not direct; they had a limited selection. For my birthday (June 26) my Celtic wood type is Oak - but instead I got a Cherry and Maple wand. I grew up climbing Maple trees though, (5 of 'em in the yard where I grew up) so that's kinda apropos I guess. Oaks were considerably more challenging, though I scaled a few of those too (rarely).
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Feb 20, 2007 06:58PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-20 15:56, Jaz wrote:
Harry Potter is fantasy and has very little, if anything, to do with inspiring people to perform magic. My 12 yr. old grand daughter has the books, posters and other Potter products but has no desire to perform magic.

In my opinion it's Blaine who initially inspired folks to learn magic by bringing close up and impromptu type magic into living rooms.
[/quote]

Perhaps Harry otter doesn't inspire some to perform magic, but inspires many to appreciate magick. It is up to us to give people something more than mere cleverness or trickery.

I agree with Mystician that stage illusions are not "magick," but perhaps they do have their place. I would much prefer to be compared to Harry Potter than to Copperfield. I want spectators to BELIEVE, even if only for a short time. I want them to experience something larger than themselves, something other than the mundane. I want them to think "Geez, maybe what I am seeing is real!" -- which in some sense it is.

Bill
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Feb 20, 2007 09:35PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-20 19:58, Bill Ligon wrote:
Perhaps Harry otter doesn't inspire some to perform magic, but inspires many to appreciate magick. It is up to us to give people something more than mere cleverness or trickery.
Bill
[/quote]

Nicely put Bill.

I know one thing: it sure has inspired writers of childrens' books !
Over 50% of the books now in the "read by myself" to "young teens" sections of Borders and Barnes & Noble are fantasy based, with heavy emphasis on wizards, witches, and magick.
The ultra-conservative christian anti-Harry Potter types must be having fits.
Message: Posted by: M@gic Man (Feb 20, 2007 10:03PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-20 12:27, Mystician wrote:

Pardon me, but personally I think you are looking at it entirely backwards, from a bizarrist' point of view.
You'd rather be compared to a known trickster than a "real"(albeit fictional) wizard ?

I'd rather be compared to someone fictional who had real magic powers, myself.
I'll bet most of us here would. The last thing I'd want to be compared to is a stereotypical stage illusionist, no matter how famous.
Why are we into magic, anyway ? For fame and fortune and glory ?
Put it this way: would you rather be remembered for being [i]magical,[/i] or clever? I see a distinct difference, though the two can certainly overlap.

I'll probably step on someones' toes here, but to me, Stage Illusionists just are not "magical", they're clever. No one in their right mind, no matter how powerful the suspension of disbelief, ever believes for a nanosecond that someone has just been sawed in half alive, for example; they applaud the imagery, the trickery, and the cleverness of the illusion. That's it. It's a very different level.
There, the "mystery" lies not in the contemplation of the unexplored secrets of nature and the possibilities of forces yet undiscovered or uncategorized, but solely in, "How'd he do that ? That was amazing looking.."
If that is what you're into, fine, but it sure isn't what I'd call bizarre magic.
I'd take it as a complement to be called a Harry Potter. At least he was a "real" wizard, in a magilogical sense.



[/quote]



I would have to agree with you when you look at it that way. At the time we were just a bit shocked and felt that she was reffering to us as 12 year old boys who go to wizard school. It did make us feel like geeks, but I spose that is what most females first think when they see a magician.

However as you said, and what we didn't realise at the time, that if she was reffering to our tricks as being on par with a wizard who performs 'real' magic, then I would take it as a complete compliment. Which may well have been what she intended the comment to mean, however it was just intepreted differntly by us at the time. But I do agree with you, that I would prefer to be compared to a real magician rather than just a trickster.

As much as I love illusion you are correct in saying they are just clever, they present puzzles to fool their audience and make them ponder over. Altough I think illusionists can still be 'magical', becuase for that split second you want to believe that is it actually happening, illusionists make you believe that nothing that is impossible and that is pretty magical to most. So to say illusionists are not magical is not entirely true.
just my opinion.

Hagan.
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 21, 2007 12:40AM)
Once again, the keyword is adventure, more than magic. HP, LOTR and other won't exist without this primal concept.
Blaine and others don't live in a world of adventure and conflicts to be solved, they just live in the mundane trying to be odd. In Europe, Blaine, Angel and C aren't known by the public, but HP is.
If Quidditch was only about flying a broomstick, no one will care about it more than 2 seconds; it will be movie special effects without any real kind of interest.
That's why storytelling is so important and makes our kind of magic so different.
Puzzles versus a world of adventures, mysteries, the unknown...
Logic versus emotions.
The choice is entirely ours.
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Feb 21, 2007 03:02AM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-20 19:58, Bill Ligon wrote:

Perhaps Harry otter doesn't inspire some to perform magic, but inspires many to appreciate magick. [/quote]

indeed... the climate has changed... For instance, when I go shopping for children's books (I have two kids and storytelling is very important to us) and I look at the books, well... there are books about kiddie werewolves, teenage vampires, witchcraft schools, etc...
The creatures who were "evil" in my childhood are now utterly delightful and fascinating. The same thing goes for sorcerers and witches. In TV-series like Buffy, charmed etc... witchcraft plays an important role. In "judging Amy" the prejudices agains wicca were taccled. There's an open-mindedness that just wasn't there before. I wouldn't go so far to say that HP caused this phenomenon, but Rowling surely contributed to it...
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 21, 2007 03:53AM)
Rowling is the tip of a gigantic iceberg that's floating around us for years.
She emerges and opened the way for the hidden part.
Isn't magical adventure about cryptic underworlds, hidden temples, mysterious destinations, strange people...
Message: Posted by: Rev.moonchild (Feb 21, 2007 02:57PM)
Blane started it but Chris took it to a new plane . I see day in and day out kids coming in with there dads asking for the trick Chris did or how did Chris do that . Never once did a kid come in to the magic shop and asked if we have the trick Harry Potter did . So from seeing all the kids that asked I have to say (and I wish I didn't) but Chris brings magic to the masses. They watch H P and say that's cool but with Chris they want to do it.

P.s for the record I'm not a big fan Of Chrises TV show
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Feb 21, 2007 03:11PM)
"Isn't magical adventure about cryptic underworlds, hidden temples, mysterious destinations, strange people..." said Curator

...and White Owls say I who lacks the proper permit.


(No...not the Cigar.)
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Feb 21, 2007 04:13PM)
Very true, Curator.. without adventure, it's all boring.

Hagan, sorry to come off kinda strong on you there, it was a rough morning. ;)

Rev Moonchild Moonie Moonpie man, ;) I agree, I haven't heard one person yet come into Johns' for that "Harry Potter" trick; but then again, it's surely had to have had[i]some[/i] effect, otherwise Andrew Mayne wouldn't have come out with Wizard School 1 & 2 DVDs.
hmmm.. both of which I bought from John.. so .. there ya go ! ;)
I think Nal nailed it on that count.. it hasn't inspired magicians directly per se, but it has seemed to make the general public more "magic aware" or something.. along with Blaine and CA, of course, but they influence magicians more directly.

You might be getting more work as a result of Harry Potter though , no ?
Message: Posted by: handa (Feb 21, 2007 08:38PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-21 15:57, Rev.moonchild wrote:
Blane started it but Chris took it to a new plane . I see day in and day out kids coming in with there dads asking for the trick Chris did or how did Chris do that . Never once did a kid come in to the magic shop and asked if we have the trick Harry Potter did . So from seeing all the kids that asked I have to say (and I wish I didn't) but Chris brings magic to the masses. They watch H P and say that's cool but with Chris they want to do it.

P.s for the record I'm not a big fan Of Chrises TV show
[/quote]

I didn't think that Midnight Monster Hop was on in your market...or are you confusing me and my show with something else? Rest assured, that even though I do have a TV show, it is not mine *per se* as I am core character but not the host and I am definitely no Angel ;-)

Chris
Message: Posted by: DrNorth (Feb 22, 2007 07:12AM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-21 01:40, The Curator wrote:
Once again, the keyword is adventure, more than magic. HP, LOTR and other won't exist without this primal concept.
[/quote]

Well put. I can't speak for Potter, as I have only read the books and not any serious dissertations on them. But the wonder of Tolkien strikes even deeper, and in this sense is more critical to magic(k) then we allude. Tolkien's purpose was to give Britain its own mythology. All the elements we see as British myth stem from Nordic, Germanic, Pagan and Roman influence. (Ironically many of the characters and groups share these influences, one can not look at the Riders of Rohan and not see influences from Norse and German culture, but he makes it clear they are from other countries. The hobbits and I would guess the line of Isildure are the "British" elements, esp the hobbits as they are the true heroes of the epic)
But his goal was mythic , epic lore, that borders on religious history (one cultures myth, etc.) and who can deny that magic((k) is not a key to that, wether it be wizards staffs, healing herbs, turning water to wine, slaying dragons, they all elude to a higher sense. That is what real magic is, and what many of us try to impart a sense of awe, wonder and possibility. If we do it through a well made tale and great effects and no sense of "I am only a guy who does few cool things" to paraphrase Penn and Teller, we can suspend that belief even more. And hopefully inspire something deep, archetypal and meaningful, not just revealing a card that was picked from a deck, with a sly smarmy smile.
Message: Posted by: Leland Stone (Feb 22, 2007 09:38AM)
I know, I know, this is tangential, but...

My kid, offspring of an unrepentantly incurable bibliophile, was struggling to learn how to read. There was simply (horrors!) little interest in the written word in his seven-year-old noggin. Then Pottermania struck, and suddenly literacy became the key that unlocked the secret world of wizardry.

Said kid still has no particular interest in hocus-pocus, but bet me whether there's Magic in Harry Potter...

Leland

[P.S. -- and less tangentially: When the last Potter tome debuted, I approached a number of local bookstores to offer a themed Magic show. I kid you not, one response was: "What would a Magic show have to do with Harry Potter?"]
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Feb 22, 2007 10:15AM)
LOL !
Leland, you're kidding ! They actually asked that ?
Well, that's very telling I guess. Many people still only see magic as that stereotypical tux/tails |top hat |rabbit |sequined-girls type stuff.
Pity.
It almost makes me hate Houdin for it.
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Feb 22, 2007 10:45AM)
Leland, that story sums it all up, but it shouldn't be like that...
To paraphrase Charles Cameron 'it's time for a magic revival' (although he called it "gothic")...
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 22, 2007 11:00AM)
[quote]
On 2007

[P.S. -- and less tangentially: When the last Potter tome debuted, I approached a number of local bookstores to offer a themed Magic show. I kid you not, one response was: "What would a Magic show have to do with Harry Potter?"]

[/quote]

When the fifth Harry Potter was published, we transform a top Brussel bookstore (in Galeries de la Reine)into a Diagonalley shop with artefacts from the Surnateum.
The new name of the shop was "Surnateum Museum Shop".
No one make any other comment than Waooooooooooooooow.
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Feb 22, 2007 12:34PM)
Waooooooooooooooow :)
(wish I had known about it !)
Message: Posted by: Rev.moonchild (Feb 22, 2007 01:14PM)
Don't get me wrong .HP changed what kids think Wizzards look like . Made Wizzard theme magic shows big again. I even dress a kid up in the HP rope ,scraff and glasses when they come up to help me in my kids show . But I have to say it's blane and C.A. that makes Kids WANT to learn magic . I see it first hand every week .

And yes Hp had an Impact . But Blane and A.C had a bigger impact making kids want to learn the Art of Magic .
Message: Posted by: ptbeast (Feb 22, 2007 01:16PM)
Leland -- I performed at a bookstore for the last opening, and it was great. When we wrapped up, I heard that another nearby bookstore had some magicians, so I headed over there. It was a standard illusion show, with garish props, tux, tails, and sequins. I asked my self the same question that the bookstore owner asked you; "what can this possibly have to do with Harry Potter?"

Dave
Message: Posted by: The Curator (Feb 22, 2007 02:07PM)
HP changes more than "how wizards look". HP reintroduces a demand for a more poetic, mysterious and fantastic form of magic.
HP changes the way we should look at magic. And it's not a matter of funny robes and strange hats.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Mar 4, 2007 05:56PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-20 15:56, Jaz wrote:
Harry Potter is fantasy and has very little, if anything, to do with inspiring people to perform magic. My 12 yr. old grand daughter has the books, posters and other Potter products but has no desire to perform magic.

In my opinion it's Blaine who initially inspired folks to learn magic by bringing close up and impromptu type magic into living rooms.
[/quote]

I would rather have a young magician inspired by Harry Potter then to have them inspired by Blaine, Because Harry is fiction, Blaine does stuff that oridinary magicians can't accomplish. I would appreciate it if people could tell the differenc between reality and fiction. Blaine, he does dangerous stunts, a bad role model if you ask me.

Blaine-the envy of us all.
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Mar 4, 2007 06:30PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-22 15:07, The Curator wrote:
HP changes more than "how wizards look". HP reintroduces a demand for a more poetic, mysterious and fantastic form of magic.
HP changes the way we should look at magic. And it's not a matter of funny robes and strange hats.
[/quote]

Agreed. Well, actually, does it change the way Wizards look, really ? I thought they always looked like that ! It just makes them fashionable again. Or maybe it does make them look more organized and respectable, what with Hogwarts and "coming of age" and the Ministry of Magic and all.
(Frankly, I'd trust Goblins better than I trust the blighters that run my bank !) ;)
But yeah, HP has brought back the "real" magic to magic; the mystery, the universe hidden within ours, and so forth.
I'd give anything to be even just a mudblood ! (Hermione kicks arse, after all)
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 4, 2007 06:56PM)
I've looked at pictures of Merlin, Gandolf, and Dumbledore. They all look alike to me.
Message: Posted by: Eddie Garland (Mar 4, 2007 07:29PM)
They look alike to me too. Put Obi-Wan Kenobi on that list as well.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 4, 2007 07:31PM)
If you threw Santa on the rack, he would look the same as well.
Hmmm, has the image of the wizard really changed at all?
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Mar 4, 2007 08:56PM)
The image hasn't but the "muggle" perception has.
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Mar 4, 2007 09:26PM)
[quote]
On 2007-03-04 21:56, ibm_usa wrote:
The image hasn't but the "muggle" perception has.
[/quote]

And when you get down to it, top hat and tails and rabbits and Hippity Hops and balloon animals and egg beaters and bra tricks don't make you look at all like a wizard. Not at all.

Bill
Message: Posted by: Eddie Garland (Mar 4, 2007 09:32PM)
Well...maybe the bra trick :)
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Mar 6, 2007 04:58PM)
[quote]
On 2007-03-04 21:56, ibm_usa wrote:
The image hasn't but the "muggle" perception has.
[/quote]

Why do you say that ? Wizards have always been depicted as old men wearing long white beards, a robe and a pointed hat, usually with stars and moons painted on.
No change at all, really. Even the HP witches look pretty stereotypical, wardrobe-wise.

Funny how much a "dunce hat" looks like a Wizard's hat, yet couldn't be further apart.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 7, 2007 10:52AM)
While Harry Potter, David Blaine and Criss Angel have all contributed to the rise in the interest of magic, I don't think you can ascribe all of the increase in the interest in magic to any one of them or all three of them.

I get a lot of calls for birthday party shows. I got more calls for shows with a "Barney" theme than I have ever gotten for a Harry Potter themed show. I know that a lot of magicians who do children's shows advertise that they do something like a Harry Potter show. That's fine. You have to be careful. If you start performing this material, you can run into problems with the people who own the characters. You need to know where to draw the line.
But that's a subject for another discussion.

The Masked Magician got more publicity for magic than Blaine, Angel or, yes, Harry Potter.
Message: Posted by: The Hitchhiker (Mar 11, 2007 04:50PM)
[quote]
The Masked Magician got more publicity for magic than Blaine, Angel or, yes, Harry Potter.
[/quote]

Does anyone know the viewing figures for the Masked magician?, I did see him perform? and apart from being a bit annoyed as a magi, as a laymen (i am not familiar with stage secrets)i found it entirely boring, no music, lights, dancing girls, atmosphere etc etc...i cannot imagine many people getting through it without changing channels, I could be wrong here though.