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Topic: Community Cups & Balls Biblio/Videography
Message: Posted by: lint (Feb 17, 2007 11:08AM)
Hi Friends,
Over the past few months, I have been putting together my own Cups & Balls biblio/videography list for collecting purposes. Now that my list has peaked over 250 separate entries, I thought I would share my fruits with everyone here, since I have learned so much from you all. I hope it helps you build your collection and know more about what is out there in regards to our beloved Cups & Balls.

My criteria for adding something to the list was simple. It needed to contain a routine, move, or at least patter ideas specific to the Cups & Balls.

My other goal for this list is for other people to contribute to what I may be missing here. The past month hasn't turned up anything new for me to add to the list with the resources available to me. I'm sure others have resources they could check. If any of you have anything to contribute, feel free to add it to the list (it is an Excel file) and send it to me (PM me for my email address). Once I add a significant amount of new items, I'll re-release the revised list to this board.

You will notice two columns that I have not had time to research yet, publisher and release date. If anyone has this info handy and can fill in what they have time to, that would be great too.

Anyhow, thanks, everyone, and I hope you find this list useful.

-todd
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Feb 17, 2007 08:38PM)
Todd:

You are to be commended. This compilation is very useful.
Thanks!

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: magicbern (Feb 18, 2007 02:43AM)
Mark Leveridge hasn't published anything to do with Cups and Balls. He had a Chop Cup Routine (discontinued), and the only Master Routine that has any resemblance to Cups and Balls is Wild Dice (but different in materials used - dice and matchboxes - and routine - more like 3 Shell Game).
Message: Posted by: lint (Feb 18, 2007 11:13AM)
Hi magicbern,
I think I included 'Master Routines' because of the "WILD DICE - A fabulous table top routine which combines elements of the Cups and Balls with the Walnut Shell And Pea Game."

I assumed some C&Bs handling could be gathered from it. Reading more about it, I think I may remove it in the next revision. Thanks for pointing it out!

-todd
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 18, 2007 04:17PM)
Todd:

Don't remove it. Although Bern may not think so, the Shell Game and the Cups and Balls are really part of the same lineage. And it doesn't matter whether it is performed with cups, shells or matchboxes, it's part of the chain of heritage of the trick.

Also, the chop cup is part of the Cups and Balls.
Message: Posted by: magicbern (Feb 18, 2007 04:22PM)
Todd, I understand the link and, in some ways, there are some Cups and Balls elements - just like chop cup has! It's just to me, it seems more like the 3 Shell Game!

However, upon taking out my original copy of this trick and reading Mark's description, here's an extract..."Wild Dice begins as a kind of shell and pea trick...then it progresses to a kind of cups and balls effect in which the dice vanishes, jumps and penetrates the matchbox drawers..."

So I think you're safe including it as a form of Cups and Balls. However, I don't think any Cups and Balls handlings can be learnt from it and applied to any other type of 'cup' or 'ball'.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 18, 2007 05:21PM)
If you are doing a "complete" bibliography of Cups and Balls material, ALL references to the Cups and Balls should be included.

It is absolutely undeniable to anyone who has studied the history of the Cups and Calls seriously that the Cups and Balls and the Three Shell Game are very closely interrelated, so much so that one of the most highly touted modern "Cups and Balls" routines is actually more of a Three Shell Game than anything else.

I won't mention it by name, because if you haven't figured this out, you don't really need to know.

My own experiments with acetabula have shown me that there must have been early elements of the Shell Game in the presentations that were done with them.

Todd:

Excellent work on the bibliography.

Contact me via my e-mail address for some more information.
Message: Posted by: lint (Feb 18, 2007 10:40PM)
Thank you, everyone, for your compliments and input. I have added a few new entries, and corrected a few as well. It did not occur to me to add chop cup literature, due to its number of moves (obviously) relying on the gimmick. Actually, since I am not a student of the chop cup, I could be wrong on that. I think I will start collecting chop cup routines and adding them to the list. However, I will add them to their own section. The list, as it stands now, is incredibly rough. Like I mentioned above, I need to organize the entries into 'types' (possibly adding the same title to multiple types), add publisher info, dates, etc. Perhaps I should start collecting Three Shell Game info, as well.

All in time! :) Keep sending those additions and corrections if you have the time and would like to help.

-todd
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 19, 2007 12:14AM)
Maybe while it is still relatively short, you should go into standard bibliography form. At some point, you will probably want to do this anyway. It will be much easier to do now than further down the road. I know this, because I just finished creating a database of the Cups and Balls Museum. There are more than 700 items catalogued. This doesn't even include balls and wands, just cups and directly related items.

I wish I'd started this when I only had about 100 sets.

It took me about two weeks. I figured I'd better do it before I forgot important facts about certain sets. I discovered I needed photos of several items.
Message: Posted by: Joe Howard (Feb 19, 2007 09:13AM)
Thanks for sharing your research, Todd!

A couple of omissions come to mind:

Ken Brooke, The Unique Years
John Carney, Book of Secrets

Joe H
Message: Posted by: lint (Feb 19, 2007 11:07AM)
Thanks, Joe! I can't seem to find indexes for either of the books, so I'll just have to trust you that they both contain some kind of C&B material. :)


[quote]
On 2007-02-19 01:14, Bill Palmer wrote:
Maybe while it is still relatively short, you should go into standard bibliography form. [/quote]

I've been debating this. It is very easy for me right now to add things to an Excel list and have it do things like auto-alphabetize them, move them around, etc. I know I "need" to get them in a proper MLA biblio format at some point, just not sure the best way to do it and still retain the ease of a spreadsheet! At the very least, the spreadsheet needs to contain all the info required for a proper bibliography listing. And then there is a ton of bibliography software I ran across last night for building biblio-lists. Ack!

[quote]
I know this, because I just finished creating a database of the Cups and Balls Museum. There are more than 700 items catalogued. This doesn't even include balls and wands, just cups and directly related items.

It took me about two weeks. I figured I'd better do it before I forgot important facts about certain sets. I discovered I needed photos of several items.

[/quote]

Is this for insurance purposes, or book research purposes? :)

-todd
Message: Posted by: RiffRaff (Feb 19, 2007 11:43AM)
How about Sean Connery?
He performed a C&B/Shell Game mix in "Time Travellers".
Message: Posted by: Joe Howard (Feb 19, 2007 04:50PM)
Hi Todd,

John Carney's Routine is in The Book of Secrets, Lesson 7 (Muscade Magic, pages 120-135).

Ken Brooke's is in The Unique Years (page 209-215). It is then followed by a couple of chop cup routines, but not the same one as in the Ken Brooke Series.

Also, The Magic of Faucett Ross (pages 135-141).

Joe H
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 19, 2007 05:34PM)
[quote]
On 2007-02-19 12:07, lint wrote:
Is this for insurance purposes, or book research purposes? :)

-todd
[/quote]

It's actually for several reasons. One is so I can have a searchable database on the Cups and Balls Museum website. Another will have to do with an announcement that I will be making sometime in the near future.

I also needed to make sure that I had photos of everything that is in the Museum. I had a few cups that were not listed, as well as several that I am lacking photos of.
Message: Posted by: lint (Feb 19, 2007 06:17PM)
Joe, thanks for the additional info. I added it to the list. Properly (MLA) formatted list is in the works and coming along nicely. If anyone happens to have the Ramsay Cups and Balls booklet (includes a bibliography) or a complete potters index and would like to help in the future, please contact me. Thanks!

-todd
Message: Posted by: Tom G (Feb 20, 2007 06:41AM)
Wow, a lot of work, Todd. Might want to add the Mike Rogers, Stevens tape. Seems to be one of the few not moved to DVD, at least yet.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Feb 20, 2007 11:50AM)
That's a nice start, Todd. I'd strongly recommend that you take up Bill's suggestion of converting these references to a standardised format in a database. Not only will this make it easier to cross-reference, but it will also mean that it's easier to search for routines by author and/or creator.

For example, you currently have "The Royal Touch" listed twice: once under Cellini and once more under McFalls (who wrote the book). Similarly, you have the Dan Fleshman books listed under Fleshman and also under John Mendoza (who wrote the books). To be accurate, you should record the reference under the author's name. However, it quickly becomes obvious that the creator of the routine is equally important. A database would help you cross-reference these much more quickly.

I'd also suggest that you keep separate lists of printed references and DVDs/videos.

I'll tell you something interesting about one of your references: the routine called "Indian Cups and Balls, Nu Style", by Solyl Kundu in his "Magic of Merriment" booklet, is in fact a Cups and Balls-themed card trick with pictures of the Cups and Balls printed onto the cards.


Richard
Message: Posted by: lint (Feb 20, 2007 12:26PM)
Hi Richard,
Thank you for the additional information. That is the exact kind of input I (and the list) is benefiting from. I will correct the entries you noted. And actually, I debated over adding the "Nu Style" entry long ago when I originally ran across it. I am still not sure if it belongs, since it is not dealing with actual cups. I do not own "Magic of Merriment", so I can not even tell if the patter would be enough (read: useful to C&B workers) to keep it in the list.

On the revised list I am working on in my spare time, I have tried to only list the author of the books in accordance with the standard bibliography style (Author. Title of Book. City of Publication: Publisher, Year.), but I agree it can get tricky with some of the entries. I think I will get the bare bones list together in proper format, and then decide on the next step.

Thank you all for your input and help,
todd
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Feb 20, 2007 01:45PM)
Hi Todd - you're welcome.

I don't think the Kundu routine is really of much use in terms of performing the Cups and Balls, but it's an interesting addition to the bibliography.

Richard
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 20, 2007 02:02PM)
At some point, it is necessary to make a value judgment on precisely what goes into anything that has to do with the Cups and Balls. You can choose to make it exclusive, that is, so that only material that directly references the Cups and Balls as performed with three-cup sets appears in the list. But then you will have to exclude the Tommy Wonder routine and other similar two-cup routines.

You can choose to reference only two- and three-cup routines, but then you must eliminate all of the one-cup routines, such as the Crandall routine in Tarbell.

You can choose to include everything.

These choices are up to you. No matter what you do, it is both right and wrong. Some would say that including the Three Shell Game in a work on Cups and Balls is wrong because the techniques are not the same, but the common ancestry of the tricks is difficult to deny.

I'll PM you with an observation about this last thing that I don't think needs to be relatively public knowledge yet.

Let me just say that the techniques of the Shell Game are sometimes still used in the Cups and Balls.

Whatever you do is right for you. That's what counts in the long run.

Thanks for making this contribution to the Cups and Balls.
Message: Posted by: Ron Giesecke (Feb 24, 2007 11:52AM)
What do I use to view this file?
Message: Posted by: wildarr (Feb 24, 2007 01:30PM)
The file contained in the zip archive is an Excel Spreadsheet. If you don't have Microsoft Office installed, you can download a free viewer from [url=http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/thankyou.aspx?familyId=c8378bf4-996c-4569-b547-75edbd03aaf0&displayLang=en]Microsoft[/url].
Message: Posted by: lint (Feb 24, 2007 01:30PM)
Hi Ron,
First you unzip it with a compression program like WinZip. Then, you open the file inside with Microsoft Excel.

-todd
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 4, 2007 12:58PM)
Updated file attached.

50+ new entries. LOTS of correction to existing entries. Quite a few old VHS tapes added, as well as magazine articles. Still working on a proper MLA formatted list, which will contain lots of additional information on each entry.

Keep the additions and corrections coming, I really appreciate them.

-todd
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Mar 4, 2007 07:06PM)
Great work, Todd. It's really coming along so very nicely.

A few possible additions for your consideration:

1. Bob Read's "The Cups & Balls in 19th Century Graphic Art" (profusely illustrated paper presented to the IBM British Ring, 1984)

2. I notice you have Guyot included. Perhaps you should therefore add Guyot's predecessor, Jacques Ozanam, whose work "Recreations Mathematiques" contains one of the earliest expositions of the C&B (deleted, however, from some the later editions and from the English translation by Hutton).

3. Henri Decremps's "La Magie Blanche Devoile" should also be included. Decremps was also the author of what later became known as "Ponsin on Conjuring" (already on your list), Prof. Jerome Sharp being one of the pseudonyms for Decremps.

4. I didn't see "Book of Modern Conjuring" by Prof. R. Kunard on your list, but I may have missed it.

5. "Secret Out" (1859) by (Cremer? Frikell? H.L Williams?) should definitely be included, as well.

6. Finally (for now), reaching way back into time, you may want to include one of the very earliest descriptions of a C&B performance, via a letter from Alciphron: "Alciphron Literally And Completely Translated From The Greek" (Book III, Letter XX), Athenian Society (1898).

Keep up the great work!

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 4, 2007 09:21PM)
Fortasse, thanks so much for the references. I have 1 or 2 you suggested on the list already, and will be investigating and adding the others.

Thanks!
-todd
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Mar 9, 2007 08:59PM)
Lint :

Re-reading my last message, I see that I made a mistake under para. 3. The reference to Decremps and his work is indeed correct but he had nothing to do with Ponsin on Conjuring. Professor Jerome Sharp was indeed a nom de plume for Decremps but he had nothing to do with the Sharp who (very much later) edited Ponsin on Conjuring. Unfortunately, these two different Sharps got confused in my notes - hence the mistake in para.3, for which I do apologize.

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 9, 2007 09:08PM)
Sharp did not edit [i]Ponsin on Conjuring.[/i] Sharpe did.

I have posted a lengthy piece on the authorship of [i]The Secret Out[/i] here:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=201072&forum=135#0
Message: Posted by: Payne (Mar 10, 2007 01:08AM)
Great work! Keep it up.

Two books in my collection not on your list

Legerdemain, or Sleight of Hand. A facsimile reproduction with plates from the third edition of the Encyclopedia Britanica (1797) By David Meyer 1986 Meyerbooks

and

The Oldest Deception. Cups and Balls in the art of the 15th and 16th Centuries by Kurt Volkman 1956 Carl W. Jones
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Mar 10, 2007 06:58AM)
Lint :

You should also definitely add the detailed historical treatment of C&B by the well-known magic writer, Henry R. Evans : "Adventures in Magic" , Ch. VI - "The Oldest Sleight-of-Hand Trick" (see The Sphinx, August 1919). This same piece quotes extensively from an earlier C&B treatise by Arthur Watson in the Reliquary which I have been trying to track down. Will let you know what I come up with.

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Mar 10, 2007 07:29AM)
[quote]
On 2007-03-04 20:06, fortasse wrote:
A few possible additions for your consideration:

1. Bob Read's "The Cups & Balls in 19th Century Graphic Art" (profusely illustrated paper presented to the IBM British Ring, 1984)

...
[/quote]

This treatise was updated in 1990 and entitled 'The Cups & Balls in 19th Century Graphic Art:: Second Spasm'.
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 10, 2007 09:47AM)
Was this bob read paper for sale or given away at a lecture? Was it part of his unpublished book or a separate work?

Thank you all for your comments and additions. It will pay off for us all in the end.

-todd
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 10, 2007 10:37AM)
This was a preliminary look at his unpublished book. It is very hard to find a copy. A photocopy sold for $600 a few months ago.

I'll send you a huge bibliography that is not in Ask Alexander. It comes from a German work that is difficult to obtain in this country.
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 10, 2007 11:15AM)
Re: Bob Read.
I have not decided yet if I should add his unpublished book or articles on cups & balls art. What are your thoughts? If we get into art, we are then straying from the (admittedly mine) original intentions of the bibliography to only include items that discuss routines, moves, patter, equipment, etc. I would be the first to cry "heresy" at not including the wonderful contributions from Mr. Read, but this then opens up what else I should include? Nearly every magic book that even touches on the history of the art has some comments about the cups (usually about the dreaded Egyptian wall...sigh). Should I include every book that even mentions the cups (a highly impossible task)? What about performance only videos?

Where should the line be drawn?

I have already decided I will work on a second (and perhaps third) bibliography on chop cups, three shell and all the other routines that use variations of cup & ball moves (ie: ball & cone). Thank God the Chop Cup has only been around since the 1950s! The initial biblio/videography will included 3-cup, 2-cup, 1-cup (no chop), combo-cup, and any other variation not including a single chop cup or any of the other variations listed above. These are obviously just rough guidelines that I am using at the moment and subject to change.

The proper MLA formatted bibliography is still in its infancy with only about 150 added entries from the excel list (many missing one bit of info or another) so any and all suggestions and ideas are welcome. As Bill has mentioned before any decision will be right and wrong, but I would like to come up with the "most" right way to go about putting this together :)

thanks!

-todd

Posted: Mar 10, 2007 12:30pm
Bill, thanks!

-todd
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Mar 10, 2007 12:23PM)
[quote]
On 2007-03-10 11:37, Bill Palmer wrote:
I'll send you a huge bibliography that is not in Ask Alexander. It comes from a German work that is difficult to obtain in this country.
[/quote]

Which one's that, Bill? Joro's book?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 10, 2007 12:25PM)
Yes. It will save Todd a lot of time. I think I have it on disc already. I have permission from Sic Verlag to translate and publish it.
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Mar 10, 2007 12:28PM)
Good idea - Joro's book is an excellent source of c&b references. It would be great to have an English translation of the whole text :)
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 10, 2007 12:53PM)
That is fantastic news Bill. Now if someone could just get permission from Mayette to translate and publish Alma's Le Jeu Des Gobelets I would be a happy man! They have ignored my english emails :)

-todd
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 10, 2007 01:11PM)
I wish I could find a copy of that one.

BTW, I just did some interesting research on [i]The Secret Out[/i]. Speaking to a very well-known bookman, his conclusions are the same as mine -- that Frikell had NOTHING to do with the book, and Cremer was a plagiarist.

There are so many errors in Toole Stott, that it is almost embarrassing to use them as a resource. There are also errors in the LOC listings. I'll post the information to that other thread in the historical section.
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 10, 2007 01:15PM)
Bill as I'm sure you know Alma's book is available from here:

http://www.circomagicobrocante.oxatis.com/PBCatalog.asp?CatID=115629

for a pricey (for me anyhow) sum.

-todd
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Mar 10, 2007 01:35PM)
Todd:

Speaking of translations, I recently commissioned a professional translation (French-to-English) of that part of the 1799 edition of Guyot's Recreations Mathematiques et Physiques which deals with Cups and balls (and very extensively at that). I should have it completed within the next two weeks. As far as I am aware, there has never been an official translation of this particular work into English although it did find its way (in English) into many of the leading works of the latter half of the 19th century, including the works of Decremps, Robert-Houdin (transl.Hoffman) and Hoffman. The translation is costing me a pretty penny but once it's done I'll be happy to provide a copy of the translation to you and to any other members of the forum who may be interested - free of charge.

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 10, 2007 01:56PM)
Fortasse, what a fantastic offer. thank you.

-todd
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Mar 10, 2007 02:11PM)
[quote]
On 2007-03-10 14:11, Bill Palmer wrote:
I wish I could find a copy of that one.

BTW, I just did some interesting research on [i]The Secret Out[/i]. Speaking to a very well-known bookman, his conclusions are the same as mine -- that Frikell had NOTHING to do with the book, and Cremer was a plagiarist.

There are so many errors in Toole Stott, that it is almost embarrassing to use them as a resource. There are also errors in the LOC listings. I'll post the information to that other thread in the historical section.
[/quote]

In your research paper you state that "Frikell's contributions to these books was minimal if any at all". But now you say (as indeed you said previously) that "Frikell had NOTHING to do with the book" . It can't be both. Which is it?

Incidentally, you relied upon Toole-Stott as your ONLY source when you started this argument with me over the authorship of "Secret Out" a week or so ago. But now I see you that don't think very much of Toole-Stott after all.

On a separate point, in your paper you confess to some difficulty in using the search engine ("Ask Alexander") on the Conjuring Arts website to good effect. It does take some getting used to and you have to be a little creative in your choice of words and even more so in using the "search within these results" feature. But once you get through this by trial and error and a little linguistic ingenuity a veritable treasure trove of material on cups and balls will reveal itself to you. I have been able to access a very considerable number of complete C&B routines, treatises, etc. using the "Ask Alexander" search engine. On many an occasion, I have found it so much more convenient to use this search engine than having to wade though the huge number of magazines and books that I have in my library of magic. Inevitably, at some point, these magazines and books have to be consulted but search engines like "Ask Alexander", when properly understood and creatively utilized, can be of enormous help to any research exercise on cups and balls. No, it's not the be-all-and-end-all by any means but it certainly can be a wonderful electronic supplement to "hard-copy" research resources.

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 10, 2007 02:35PM)
Hey guys lets leave the "the secret out" arguments out of this thread. It would be a shame to have this one locked too.

Fortasse thanks for your info on 'ask alexander'. I wish they offered membership for a month or two at a time (like the online GENII). I would prefer that over paying a whole year and only needing a few weeks to gather the info I needed. Plus I don't like the restriction levels. I think everyone who is a member should have access to the whole archive for research. At some point I'm sure I will need to plunk down the cash to access it though...

-todd

[quote]
2. I notice you have Guyot included. Perhaps you should therefore add Guyot's predecessor, Jacques Ozanam, whose work "Recreations Mathematiques" contains one of the earliest expositions of the C&B.[/quote]

The article here: http://logica.rug.ac.be/albrecht/thesis/Etten-intro.pdf seems to point to Jean Leurechon as the author of this work. Does anyone have any additional input on that?

-todd
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 11, 2007 04:14PM)
This is a different book. The [i]Recreations Mathematiques[/i] that "Laurechon" wrote was published in 1624. Ozanam's [i]Recreations Mathematiques[/i] was published in 1694.

There have been many books called [i]Recreations Mathematiques[/i]. Some of these have sections on physics, chemistry and magic. Others do not.
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 11, 2007 04:21PM)
Ahh thank you bill!

-todd
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Mar 11, 2007 04:26PM)
Heeffer's thesis was published in almost identical form in last summer's 'Gibeciere'.

As Bill says, the Recreations Mathematiques were printed and reprinted over a long period of time with different authors (more like editors). The books are basically a patchwork quilt of material gleaned from a variety of different sources.

Interstingly, Guyot, in his version of Recreations Mathematiques, specifically credits Ozanam for the workon the cups and balls.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 11, 2007 04:31PM)
That publication date of Ozanam should read 1692. That's when the first edition in the Fechner bibliography was dated.
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 21, 2007 12:16AM)
Hey everyone.

Boy, what a big update I have for you thanks to well known forum member Bill Palmer. The last list I think had around 350 entries. The one I am posting below has 896! For the time being it also includes chop cup routines as well. I have not made up my mind on if I will include it in the future, but for now, they are included. This update includes a lot of German entries as well as magazine articles. Magazine articles are listed in the following format "author - article name: magazine name". Also, some of the book authors "might" not be the actual author of the book, however they will be the author of the corresponding section on cup work in the specific book. That discrepancy will be clearer in a future version of this bibliography.

Also, the "Unknown" section is very rough at the moment. A lot of the entries I have not had a lot of time to investigate yet.

Anyhow, enjoy and keep any additions, updates and suggestions coming. I have some really great things planned for this video/bibliography in the future that you will all enjoy.

-Todd
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Mar 21, 2007 06:12PM)
Todd : Outstanding! You've really been working. I'm glad to see you decided to stray beyond the original criteria to incorporate some of the outer fringes of the C&B experience, e.g. the influence of cups and balls on graphic art, as exemplified by Volkmann's "Oldest Deception" and Bob Read's treatises.

A couple more additions for you: by a curious coincidence I have sitting on the table right next to me two important French conjuring books with extensive sections on Cups and balls : "Le Magicien Des Salons Ou Le Diablo Coleur de Rose" by Richard and "Les Mille Recreations De Societe". If you need further bibliographical information on these, feel free to PM me.

Your bibliography is really growing wonderfully, Todd. I hope you see it through.

Fortasse

PS : I hope you plan to re-organize the alphabetical listing so that authors' surnames appear before their first names.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 21, 2007 06:30PM)
Here's another one:

Drake, Don and Geno Munari: [i]Cups and Balls[/i], with special material by Darwin and Geoffrey Hansen ©1996 Geno Munari (Houdini Magic).

Although it is chock full of misinformation, it still belongs on the list.
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 21, 2007 07:57PM)
Fortasse, thank you for the new additions and suggestions. Yes it has been a lot of work, but it will be worth it. I do not plan to change the author name formatting on this particular list. The list I am posting here on the forum is strictly for people here who want a quick reference to use in their collecting and to satisfy their curiosity as to what is available in regards to cup play. If the list were smaller, I might do a quick reformat, but it would take too much of my time away from other things to do it at this point :) If anyone is crafty with Excel and can somehow have it auto-format the author name, please chime in! This bibliography is very different from the one I am working on behind the scenes. In the future I will hopefully have a somewhat complete, properly formatted "Cup Play" bibliography for anyone interested. By the way Fortasse, congratulations on getting that Ramsay book. I hope to one day own a copy for myself.

Bill, as always thank you for your help. This project would not be anywhere as complete without your contributions.

-Todd

P.S. Next update when the list reaches 1,000.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 21, 2007 10:44PM)
Todd:

Just a point of information -- the German word Becherspiel, which translates literally as "cup play" also means a set of cups. It's kind of like the word for a deck of cards "Kartenspiel."

On the other hand, I may be wrong about this, because French is not one of my languages, (Fortasse will be able to correct me if I'm wrong), I believe one of the terms in French for the cups and balls translates to "the play of the cups."

In Italy, one of the terms for the cups is bussolotti. The conjurer is called a gioccatore. Bussolotti is an old word. But gioccatore can have a meaning of a "player." One of the most famous Spanish conjuring books is called [i]Juegos de Manos[/i] which is "play(s) of the hands." So the idea of "playing" with the cups is fairly common in various languages.
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Mar 21, 2007 11:35PM)
Yes, you are quite right : in French it is usually rendered "Le jeu des Gobelets" (the game or play or trick with cups) or "tour des gobelets" (trick with cups). Interestingly, the really old French works, e.g. by Ozanam and Guyot, group C&B under the broad heading of "Tours de Gibeciere", the probable origin of the well-known English phrase "bag of tricks".

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: lint (Mar 21, 2007 11:38PM)
Hey thanks for the additional info. I have long wondered what other languages words for "cups and balls" were for research purposes.

-todd

Posted: Apr 13, 2007 5:32pm
In one of the MANY fill in the blanks type questions I will have over the next several months I ask this:

What was the publishing city/state and publisher name of the following magazines?

Pallbearer's Review
Magigram
Linking Ring
Magician Monthly
Magic Wand

If anyone has just one of these mags and can quickly look up the info I would REALLY appreciate it. I need it for proper formatting. THANK YOU!

-todd
Message: Posted by: atkinsod (Apr 20, 2007 10:17AM)
Todd,

Great Listing! You may be familiar with my website at: http://magicref.tripod.com where I list effects such as the Cups & Balls, Chop Cup, and so forth, along with a listing of Books, videos, and products available that contain routines featuring these effects.

My intent was never to be a complete bibliography, but rather to present some of the more common historical references and most of the currently available references to an effect.

Do you have a website where you could feature your downloads, or do you prefer to keep them limited here to the Magic Café? Nothing wrong with that, except that the files tend to get more "buried" as the lists grow.

A great site for them would be Bill Palmer's (if he wants to host them), or I would be happy to host them for you if you'd like.

Doug A.
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Apr 20, 2007 10:52AM)
How about Rene lavand's close-up artistry volume two (three bread crums)
Message: Posted by: lint (Apr 20, 2007 12:43PM)
[quote]
On 2007-04-20 11:17, atkinsod wrote:
Todd,

Great Listing! You may be familiar with my website at: http://magicref.tripod.com where I list effects such as the Cups & Balls, Chop Cup, and so forth, along with a listing of Books, videos, and products available that contain routines featuring these effects.

My intent was never to be a complete bibliography, but rather to present some of the more common historical references and most of the currently available references to an effect.

Do you have a website where you could feature your downloads, or do you prefer to keep them limited here to the Magic Café? Nothing wrong with that, except that the files tend to get more "buried" as the lists grow.

A great site for them would be Bill Palmer's (if he wants to host them), or I would be happy to host them for you if you'd like.

Doug A.
[/quote]

Hi Doug, I was wondering when you would finally chime in! Your website provided me with a great start when I began working on this massive project.

I unfortunately do not have any website that I can keep this list on. However you or anyone else is welcome to use the list I have posted here for whatever you like. Feel free to post it on your site. The only thing that I ask is if you (or anyone else) uses it you give credit to this forum for the work and also ask for any additions that may be missing as that is the purpose of this list and having communal access to it. Oh and let me know if anyone suggests an addition so I can research and add it!

Like I have said in the past there is a properly formatted bibliography in the works with this list as its base. I will continue to provide updates to this list here on the forum and when the proper one is done I will probably get it printed up. This is far into the future though as life has been getting in the way of my work!

-todd

[quote]
On 2007-04-20 11:52, walid ahumada wrote:
How about Rene lavand's close-up artistry volume two (three bread crums)
[/quote]

Walid, thank you! Don't know how I missed that one. Mr. Lavand is mesmerizing to watch.

-todd

Posted: Apr 24, 2007 2:40pm
A question about Eddie Joseph for anyone who may know. It seems like most of his works were published by Abbott's Magic Co. here in the US. However I can find reference to most of his works being published prior by Max Andrews Vampire Press in England.

I am having great difficulty finding info on first additions for his works. Ill see one listed as a first edition from Abbott's, then find an early printing later on from Vampire.

Anyone know anymore about Mr. Josephs printing history?

-Todd
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Apr 24, 2007 03:43PM)
Much of Eddie Joseph's work was, indeed, first printed by Max Andrews.
Message: Posted by: lint (May 31, 2007 01:38PM)
05/31/07

Big update. Not so much with new entries, in fact many entries are left out from the last list (mainly vhs/dvd). These will be added back soon. The main update is the format of the list. authors are now "lastname, firstname", titles, publications, years, format are broken into separate columns making it easy to sort by magazine, year, etc.

feel free to continue to chime in with new additions or fill in any of the MANY blanks (just update me!). If you see any mistakes, please let me know. Another update will follow within a week or so.

-Todd
Message: Posted by: lint (Jun 25, 2007 12:55PM)
Just wanted to let those of you who are waiting on an update that I should have one by this weekend with the bulk of the missing entries converted to the new format. Sorry for the delay, life has been getting in the way! :)

-todd
Message: Posted by: lint (Jul 14, 2007 12:53PM)
07/14/07 update

Several corrections and additions. I still have a lot of VHS/DVD to add from the old style list, but I am getting there. Currently juggling a few research projects. Just subscribed to Conjuring Arts so I am sure I will have a lot more to add as time permits. Please continue to suggest additions and corrections. Special thanks to Bill and Fortasse. This bibliography would be nowhere near as complete without the help of everyone on this forum.

-todd
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Jul 15, 2007 06:13PM)
Well done, Todd. This is really shaping up to be a major contribution to C&B bibliography. And still growing! All of us, I'm sure, are grateful to you. I know I am.

Keep up the great work!

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: zwong (Jul 17, 2007 06:11AM)
Good stuff. I can't say I can add anything that's already in there.
Message: Posted by: lint (Jul 17, 2007 11:59AM)
Thanks for taking a look zwong. And for the kind words Fortasse.

-todd
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 17, 2007 05:46PM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-17 07:11, zwong wrote:
Good stuff. I can't say I can add anything that's already in there.
[/quote]

But could you add anything that's NOT in there? ;)
Message: Posted by: zwong (Jul 17, 2007 10:42PM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-17 18:46, Bill Palmer wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-07-17 07:11, zwong wrote:
Good stuff. I can't say I can add anything that's already in there.
[/quote]

But could you add anything that's NOT in there? ;)
[/quote]

I'll come up with a killer routine, write a book on it, get it published and THEN add it in there =)