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Topic: The Pass
Message: Posted by: Robin Parker (Sep 28, 2001 09:33AM)
Iím obsessed with the pass and I am, perhaps foolishly, attempting to perform the best possible.

I realize that there are other options to this sleight and different students of cards have different views on this subject. Some don't think too much of it, others avoid it, some have perfected it and others are somewhere in the middle regarding itís execution.

Owning tapes with Dingle offering several minutes of instruction along with numerous executions, I am in awe of the beauty of the sleight and I want the ability to mirror it.

I also study the K. Krenzel tape on the pass and his knowledge and mastery of the sleight is a thing of beauty & mastery. Perhaps my desire is foolish, to think that I could mirror the abilities of such artist in our field but the journey is actually the most enjoyable part. Wish me luck! What are your thoughts on the pass?
Message: Posted by: Steve Landavazo (Sep 28, 2001 09:50AM)
Hello Kardma!

You sound a lot like me when it comes to the pass!

I do know that most of the, "precision" of the pass involves much more misdirection rather than solely relying on the execution of the move!

My friends, Ichazod and Steve Brooks have got handling that seems to rely more on this type maneuvering! Maybe a quick e-mail, or private message to them would help!

Anyway, good luck with your pass and I hope this helps!

Sincerely, Steve Landavazo :baby:
Message: Posted by: Robin Parker (Sep 28, 2001 09:55AM)
Steve, you are exactly correct on the issue of WHEN to do it and the use of misdirection; I did not intend to overlook this very important aspect of the sleight, the use of misdirection. However, watching the tape of Dingle motivates me to perform the pass in such a manner as to deceive when your hands are being burned. I may not achieve such mastery but as I said earlier, I enjoy the journey.
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Sep 28, 2001 01:46PM)
I think the pass is a great "weapon", when used properly, and at the correct moment.

The so-called "burnable" pass got popular in the late 70's thanks to Dingle and others.

However, if you can execute a "normal" pass,

what does it really matter?

It's only a means to an end. If there is a move that works better in any given situation, then I use it instead.

But of course, setting yourself a goal of perfecting a burnable pass is admirable, and I certainly wish you the best in that pursuit. :wavey:
Message: Posted by: Jack (Sep 30, 2001 05:28PM)
Iíve used the pass for many years now. Iím not the fast, invisible kind of pass doíer like the fore mentioned guys, but I get away with it every time, by motion of body and hand during the move, and an uplooking smile or something else that can be directed toward the spectator(s), and sensing the right time to do it.

In order to use the pass in performance, you donít necessarily have to be speedy and accurate by years of practice (unless you just want to). In performance, there are perfect moments during patter and misdirection to get it done.

Now I will say it took me quite a while performing to many people before I gained the ability to know when the time is right, so perhaps there is learning time needed there.

I remember my magic buddies showing each other whoís the fastest passer and Iíd use one during a trick and none of them would see it, and some of them are faster than me. Happy passing!

Magically, Jack
Message: Posted by: Mistereis (Oct 3, 2001 11:05PM)
Hi Kardma, Iím right with you on this "being possessed by the pass" thing. To that end I have just ordered Richard Kaufmanís "On The Pass" video so Iíll let you know how I get on when it arrives.

Maybe we are a pair of fools but Iím having too much fun to stop.
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Oct 3, 2001 11:15PM)
Mistereis, after you have watched the video, be sure and let us all know how it was in our "The good, the bad, and the garbage" forum. Being it's Kaufman, I'm sure it's quality stuff. :wavey:
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Oct 3, 2001 11:34PM)
I think it's a great video. I'm interested to see if you agree.
Message: Posted by: Jack (Oct 4, 2001 06:08PM)
I once had that video. It is really good. Richard's pretty fast. He also demonstrates a James Swain card effect that's fully based on the pass.

Magically, Jack
Message: Posted by: Mistereis (Oct 4, 2001 06:11PM)
I certainly will Scott but alas I ordered it through a magic store (bricks and mortar) here in Melbourne on Sept. 10th so given present circumstances I'll understand if it takes a while to arrive.

Good to see you and Wallace here.
Message: Posted by: Axman (Oct 11, 2001 08:24AM)
Go and check out Harvey Rosenthal's website for the best pass I have ever seen. Itís his "square up pass".
Message: Posted by: donaldlaporte (Oct 14, 2001 08:09AM)
You're not alone. Iíve spent hundreds of hours in front of a mirror too. Your right, itís fun getting there. But in that time you discover the little things about the pass that you might of not quite understood unless you put all that time in.

Anyways, I use the standard pass all the time BUT I have a burnable pass that I also use, which I stumbled across some time ago while putting all that time in on the standard pass.

Now I think they talk about this pass in "Expert card technique". It is**********

Editor: Sorry, explanations of effects and or methods cannot be explained in the public area of the cafe...Thanks:)
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Oct 14, 2001 01:48PM)
I use three passes: a variation of Draun's Midnite Shift, the LePaul Spread Pass, and Doug Edwards' Turnover Pass.
Message: Posted by: Burt Yaroch (Oct 24, 2001 06:42PM)
I also have the Kaufman vid and it's great. Unfortunatly, I have been passing on my pass as I still haven't got it where it should be (despite my obsession).

Jay Sankey did give me a great little pointer (my good buddy Jay Sankey): The hand rocking motion which shields the corners flashing. I think it's also on one of his videos but if you aren't familiar lemme know.
Message: Posted by: AndiGladwin (Oct 25, 2001 01:16AM)

I use a couple of passes - there's Luke Dancy's Pass, Aaron Shield's Pass and my own pass (it's being published soon... more info later). Also, when I'm feeling lazy, or when my sleeves aren't already rolled up (99% of the time they are due to the fact that I believe it strengthens the magic) I'll use crazy Mr Sankey's Sleeves Up Pass.

Message: Posted by: Dorian Rhodell (Oct 28, 2001 10:29PM)
Paul David and I came up with a pass that is pretty cool if I do say so myself. It follows the lines of the all around square up type of passes but is more efficient than Cervonís, Hollingworthís or Lennart Greenís.

Itís the only pass I ever use. OK that last sentence is a line of bull but the pass is sure fun to play with. It will be on Paulís video which is coming out soon.

If anyone here is truly interested in a fresh approach to card magic and is not afraid of practicing a LOT then you are in for a real treat. For those of you who canít practice as much for one reason or another.....well, just sit back and enjoy being fooled like he**.

Dorian Rhodell
Message: Posted by: yellowguy (Nov 1, 2001 07:41AM)
Hi guys,

Iíll start by telling you that Iíve got the hands the size of an average 14 year old kid but Iím able to make the pass invisible, no misdirection, even calling attention to my hands. It takes lots of practice and all, but most people think itís in the speed. Well, itís not. A great guy to learn from is Brad Chrsitian over at ellusionist.com. His ninja series is Phenomenal. Check out the Vegas Card cheat video heís got. He uses the classic pass, but itís completely invisible.

Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Nov 1, 2001 02:13PM)
It sounds like everyone pretty much uses what 'works' for them, and that's great! :nod:

GreatScott, I have to tell you I just love the "LePaul Spread Pass", my dear friend Jerry Camaro taught that too me some time ago. I must say it is a fantastic pass, that has truly been a challenge perfecting. :wavey:
Message: Posted by: Chad Sanborn (Nov 3, 2001 02:39AM)
I am a pass freak!! I have tried every variation known to man. The best pass I have seen is on [url=http://www.harveyrosenthal.com]this site[/url]

Harvey has a few invisible passes.

the problem with most passes I've seen, even from the "pass masters" is that you can see 'something' happening. I suspect that it is that most people tend to riffle the cards when they are done with the pass. the noise just arouses some supicion, as they know the cards didn't make noise on their own.

Chad :kermit:
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Nov 4, 2001 11:36AM)
OK, guys, you all know the Pass and can perform at least one of the many versions. What do you use it for? What effect or what routine are you performing that requires you to use this marvel? This is an honest question.

I spent tons of hours learning a couple of nice versions of the Pass. I believe that I perform them well. The trouble is that I donít perform one effect, in any of my acts, that require it!

I guess learning this was for my pleasure only.
Message: Posted by: Robin Parker (Nov 4, 2001 12:44PM)
I've watched H. Rosenthal's pass at his site and it is something special! If I could attain such mastery. R. Kaufman will eventually publish a book on H.R.'s magic and I do hope the square-up pass is included.
Message: Posted by: Mitch (Nov 5, 2001 08:23PM)
I just recently started using the pass (one month). I am probably not all that good at it but nobody sees me doing it.

I will share my technique in a second... but first, more important than the technique..

Performing for magicians or yourself is very different from performing for an audience. Perform for yourself and you are very critical of every move because you are aware of it. Perform for magicians and they are watching for each move. Perform for laymen and they are watching because they want to see some magic and have some fun.

Be entertaining and interactive and you can do almost any move in front of them.

Also, I donít present myself during my routines as any kinda card manipulation expert - I handle the cards the way a guy who doesnít do card tricks handles them (but who is capable of handling cards).

I was just messing with The Pass and decided to practice on some relatives I was visiting and they are just happy to see a trick, I did the pass right in front of their eyes (probably pretty slow and crappy) but they had no clue because they were not looking for anything.. just anxious to see a trick and be entertained.

Here is what I do plus obvious tips

a) I donít look at my hands when I do it

b) I keep it REALLY loose (and slow)

c) I usually spread the cards out from my left hand to right hand, stop, have them place card on pack in left hand, then feed/spread the cards from my right hand back into left

d) doing "c" ends up with a "messy" stack, so in straightening out the edges I do the business

e) while I am doing "d" I just yak about something and look really nonchalant (is that how you spell it?) because if you donít think you are doing anything you wonít look like you are doing anything - I call this Self-Misdirection.. fooling yourself that you are not really doing a sleight when you are actually doing one!

f) during all of this I always keep my hands in motion and have eye contact with the spectator.

If you are scared to do a pass... just try it anyway on a friend and just look them in the eye when you do it and donít think about it.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Nov 5, 2001 08:55PM)
[ This Message was edited by: greatscott on 2001-12-16 01:51 ]
Message: Posted by: Mitch (Nov 6, 2001 04:53AM)
Hey Scott... thanks for the qualifier but not at all necessary - the board is here for discussion so feel free to comment pro or con on anything I say as it is the differing opinions that make things interesting and teach us all a thing or two!

Did not mean to suggest that misdirection can replace effective handling... just wanted to pass on that it can compensate for a lack of mastery of a move.

In these posts I have seen a number of folks comment on how they feel they are not ready to perform the pass because they canít get it right. I am just suggesting that, that is ok, donít worry because with good misdirection (and good self-misdirection) you can get away with a less than perfect pass. At least that is my experience.

You know its funny... about how different folks watch magic. I was thinking about it last night after reading your post that there are really four perspectives on watching magic:

a) Kids - they watch magic and believe it is magic... for them this is pure fun! They donít ask "How did he/she do that!" they just go.. "Wow... Magic!".

b) Adults who wish to be fooled - Adults know there is no "real" magic but love to be entertained by being fooled and the marvel is in how did he/she do that! These are the people that may come up after the show and thank you for a great show.

c) Adults who donít like to be fooled - These are the folks that are out to "catch" the magician. They spend less time relaxing and enjoying the show and more time trying to show others that he/she will not be fooled.


d) Magicians - magicians marvel at the way other performers perform slieghts and conduct routines. They are not looking to be fooled but impressed by handlings and routines. Wow... that guy used the simplest slieghts to pull off a great effect! or.. I know he/she just did the pass but I could not even see it. We learn a great deal from others this way.

So you are very accurate when you say that laymen are sometimes looking for what you are doing.. but my experience has also been that they are generally in the minority... and that if they do figure it out then they have achieved some satisfaction but I figure they lose the most cause they missed the "magic".

I hope I have not wandered too far off topic here (although I think I have).. hope others find this interesting.... perhaps a topic for another board...
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Nov 6, 2001 07:57AM)
While I am certainly no expert, and I will admit that my pass is based on 'mis-direction', the most important part is "Timing". A fraction of a second can make a real difference one way or the other.

Message: Posted by: AndiGladwin (Nov 6, 2001 08:03AM)

On 2001-11-06 05:53, Mitch wrote:

Did not mean to suggest that misdirection can replace effective handling...just wanted to pass on that it can compensate for a lack of mastery of a move.[/quote]

Very true, but it's also worthwhile to note that mastery of misdirection is a heck of a lot more difficult than mastering the pass. And that's the reason I spent so much time on my pass - I'd rather have someone to burn my hands as I execute it than I would to misdirect them, which is so much more difficult :)

Message: Posted by: Lonnie Dilan (Dec 4, 2001 11:22AM)
I have seen Dorianís Pass in person! All I can say is what pass? I asked him to do it over and over again... itís just CLEAN!

I am a fan of the pass and I know a few of them, but this pass is by far, way SUPERIOR to any pass out there.

Guys!! when Paul Davidís video comes out I recommend you all get a copy. You will not be sorry.

Message: Posted by: Dorian Rhodell (Dec 4, 2001 11:43PM)
Hey Lonnie,

Wow, Thanks for the compliment! I added some nice touches to it since the last time I saw you. I think you'll like them. And I agree, when Paul David's vid comes out.....everyone who is seriously into card magic should take a look.

Take care,

Dorian Rhodell
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Dec 4, 2001 11:56PM)
You da man Dorian! :bigdance:
Message: Posted by: moroheus_2279 (Dec 5, 2001 01:35AM)
"NINJA STEALTH CARD TECHNIQUE" is a great video that shows a couple of versions of the pass and how to make it invisible. Check it out at ellusionist.com and before you ask I am in no way involved with the web site...
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Dec 5, 2001 09:05PM)
Check out the (mostly dissenting) opinions of the Ellusionist products in the review section of the Cafe.
Message: Posted by: Lonnie Dilan (Dec 11, 2001 03:57PM)
I recently learned a pass it's a variation of the Herman Pass called the Shadow Pass and I have to say it's a really cool clean pass. Looks good..or I should say doesn't look like anything.

anyone else hear of the shadow pass?
Message: Posted by: Luke Dancy (Dec 12, 2001 05:58PM)
Lonnie the "Shadow Pass" that you mentioned is my baby. Iím glad to hear that you have messed around with it and find it useful in your work. Enjoy it my friend.

Your friend in magic,

Luke Dancy
Message: Posted by: AndiGladwin (Dec 13, 2001 02:44AM)
Being good friends with Luke (^^^^) itís kind of hard for me to say this without sounding corny or as if Iím trying to advertise the move, but Iíll try anyway. :bg:

The Shadow Pass should be renamed

[b]THE[/b] Shadow Pass as it is simply

THE Pass you should learn!

I use it all of the time for occasions when my own Pass isnít suitable and in fact, my Pass originated from Lukeís handling.

The beauty of the move is that it elimates the white streak that we often see, in fact, itís impossible not to eliminate the streak when performing the move, and that in my book is priceless.

If you want to learn a Pass for the first time, or have been using it for years this is the move for you.



Check out - [url=http://www.asquaredproductions.com]A2 Productions[/url] my all new website - [url]http://www.asquaredproductions.com[/url]
Message: Posted by: Big Al Jnr (Dec 13, 2001 08:30AM)
Hi Robin

The best pass Iíve seen is in the local magic shop on a Saturday afternoon.

A guy called Adam does a "jiggle pass". Heís always fiddling with the cards when he is performing and this gives him excellent misdirection for the jiggle pass, it just looks like heís fiddling with the cards. The mechanics are difficult to describe here and I donít know where it is described. Iíll ask this weekend and post details.

Regards, Al.
Message: Posted by: Dorian Rhodell (Dec 13, 2001 10:30PM)
The Jiggle pass belongs to Neal Elias. When I was hanging out at Larry Jennings house many a year ago, I saw him do the jiggle pass. Well, I didn't actually see him do it but my card always ended up on top with a very soft jiggle of the cards. Look in Derek Dingle's book for details on his take of this pass.

Take care,

Dorian Rhodell
Message: Posted by: Scott O. (Dec 14, 2001 05:48AM)

On 2001-12-12 18:58, Luke Dancy wrote:

Lonnie the "Shadow Pass" that you mentioned is my baby. . . ."



Your Shadow Pass seems to come highly recommended. Do you have it in print somewhere?

Scott O. ;)
Message: Posted by: Big Al Jnr (Dec 14, 2001 11:19AM)
Thanks Dorian, I had no idea who the íjiggle passí should be ícreditedí to, now I know.

Cheers, Al :wavey:
Message: Posted by: Luke Dancy (Dec 14, 2001 12:06PM)
Scott, to answer your question. My 5 o'clock Shadow Pass (commonly known as the shadow pass) was already released once in booklet form for a limited number of people. The ones that I did have sold out and I thought nothing more of it. Andi Gladwin asked me if I'd like my pass included in a new book he's working on with his pass and another original pass. Needless to say I took him up on the offer and the book from what I understand is in the works (Ask Andi about those details)

Your friend in magic,

Luke Dancy
Message: Posted by: AndiGladwin (Dec 15, 2001 06:52AM)
Just to extend on Lukeís post...

As soon as Luke taught me his move I started playing around with my own variations on it. The move didnít need any changes but itís just the way I am... always fiddling with moves. Eventually I arrived at a point that had moved miles away from Lukeís pass and I taught my version to him.

I knew that my íbusiness partnerí Andy Leviss had also spent a lot of time on a very unique pass and I suggested to the guys that we team up and publish them in one booklet. And thatís what we decided to do!

Itís in production and I expect that we will have it finished by the middle of January. Iím currently in talks with a printing company to make this an extremely high quality production (think Ben Harris level) as I think the quality of the material (here I refer to Lukeís and Andyís moves far more than mine) deserves it.

So the short answer - itís nearly finished. The long answer... itíll be out in March (or perhaps a little before) and will sell somewhere in the area of $10 - $15.



Check out - [url=http://www.asquaredproductions.com]A2 Productions[/url] my all new website - [url]http://www.asquaredproductions.com[/url]
Message: Posted by: Geoff Williams (Jan 31, 2002 08:57AM)
As a side note...

I have developed a version of the Pass that's based on:

1) slowing WAY down

2) stopping in the middle of the execution

3) drawing attention to it

It's called the Estimation Pass and the technique involved is called "spotlight camouflage." E-mail me [geoff_williams@bigfoot.com] and I'll send you the write-up from my lecture notes.
Message: Posted by: spfranz (Jan 31, 2002 01:12PM)
I've seen Geoff's Estimation Pass and it's very deceptive as well as being fairly easy to do (even I can do it).

I also really like his "Do These Pants Make My Butt Look Big" Pass. Also in the lecture notes, right Geoff?