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Topic: What's Up with that 'same' Audience of the L&L Publishing Magic DVDs?
Message: Posted by: Salby (May 20, 2007 01:33PM)
Something that I (and I'm sure many of you) noticed is in viewing ANY of the L&L Publishing DVDs (Osterlind's MIND MYSTERIES, Bill Malone's ON THE LOOSE, Jay Sankey's GREATEST HITS, Michael Ammar's ETMCM Series, etc., etc. etc.) is the audience is ALWAYS the same.....

.... DAVID (Afro-American sometimes with glasses and/or a beard), JOHN (Caucasian with moustache and ALWAYS laughing like a hyena), etc., etc. etc.

Their laughing is so annoying and, to me, fake. Why does L&L Publishing need to have the same audience ALL THE TIME?? Not only are some of them annoying to the viewer of the DVD, but I don't believe that the effects are truly "audience-tested". If an audience sees the same magician over and over and over, they will pick up some of his nuances and other things that they will notice as a "move".

Why doesn't L&L Publishing get a new studio audience every so often??

And what is with ALL the audience members sitting down bare-footed during all 4 DVD volumes of Richard Osterlind's MIND MYSTERIES??? I, personally, feel that feet are the most distasteful body parts there are that can be exposed publically... I personally do not even want to see Cindy Crawford's feet during a show, let alone while eating at McDonald's.

It's literally been years that L&L Publishing has kept the same studio audience. I have seen the same spectators (Davis, John, etc.) in Michael Ammar's ETMCM series that were taped in the early-mid 1990's and the same spectators are being used for currently-recorded DVD's of L&L Publishing.

Do these spectators have real jobs, or what?? I'm sure that they have a contract with L&L Publishing for years and getting renewed. But is each one getting paid as a "full-time Spectator" (or perhaps an "actor" who acts like he is laughing and be in awe)?? What salary do you think L&L Publishing gives them?? I bet it is an amount that is significant. How about Medical Benefits?? Or what about a 401K??

How can I get paid to professionally watch magic shows??
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (May 20, 2007 01:44PM)
Those are employees and friends of employees of L&L. They are in a relatively small community which relies upon tourist and those tourist are not visiting to sit in a studio and watch magic. Unless you are suggesting L&L fire their employees every year and get new ones then you are stuck with what you dislike. If you have questions about their benefits package call their HR representative, at that time you can apply for a job working in the warehouse or something and then you may get to be in the audience.
Message: Posted by: ShawnMilo (May 20, 2007 02:14PM)
Okay, I agree. I say we storm the L&L offices for this shady practice. I mean, it's not like there are any other production studios which are more deserving of our attention. You know, ones that put out poor-quality DVDs by less-experienced magicians intended to rob Michael Ammar and Jeff McBride of DVD sales by teaching the "same" material (incompletely and with less skill) to newer magicians who don't know better and think saving $10 is a good deal.

If such a place existed, especially if it got most of its business by "borrowing" material yet called themselves makers of magic, that would be a shame.
Message: Posted by: THEGUY26 (Will Swanson) (May 20, 2007 02:59PM)
Yeah, I notices this too. They all act like laymen, even though they all probably get a free copy of the DVD/VHS.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (May 20, 2007 03:04PM)
I find it amusing that those who would call themselves magicians fall victim to the thinking "This is the only explanation." I'm also amused when those who have never been there pontificate about what goes on behind the scenes.

Is it possible that very friendly and outgoing people gladly drive half an hour to go to a party on Saturday, watch some of the best magical entertainment in the world, and have a nice catered lunch just because they enjoy doing such a thing? Is it possible that the host of the party invites those people he enjoys back to the next party?

The broad statement which MagicSanta has made elsewhere is misleading. There are only a handful of employees at L&L and I think there has only been 3 current employees at any time on any DVD. If you think the audience is stuffed with L&L employees, you are mistaken and any of the performers who have shot there will verify this. Most of the people in the audience did not get there because they were friends with an L&L employee. They have, however, become friendly with employees at L&L who are, afterall, very outgoing and friendly people.

Salby, have you bought a recently shot DVD from L&L. David and John are old news. You are watching archives... albeit the material is still pertinent. And have you read the threads here where people praise David and John as great spectators and want to see a DVD on them! Not everyone is annoyed by these types of spectators. Many learn from how the pros handle them. Many see them as the typical spectator one [b]will[/b] run into if performing at privaties party where people who are very familliar and social have gathered to enjoy themselves.

Now about those feet. I bet you don't go to the beach much. If you search really hard you will find an Easter Egg in which Richard actually predicts that you would be the one to be offended by this and he asked us all to remove our shoes and socks. Either that or it was to preserve the condition of the hardwood floors throughout the studio, which doubles as a multi-million dollar home in the off season. It is a more common practice every day here on the West Coast. Chalk it up to social differences and move on by either overlooking it or getting rid of the DVD if it too offensive for you.
Message: Posted by: randirain (May 20, 2007 03:19PM)
I would guess they are like the people on the infomercials you see on TV.
They probably get a few bucks for watching and clapping.

Watch Michael Finney's rope routine.
The girl on there...
He asks her what she does for a living.
;)

I wouldn't mind getting a few bucks to watch some good magicians do good magic.

Randi
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (May 20, 2007 03:25PM)
I'm not sure what broad statement you refer to Tom. Since you are in the know then perhaps you can answer the question he asks. They are not employees nor friends of L&L, then who are they and how is it they get picked to attend regularly if they don't know anyone at L&L?

Was the complaint this fellow had that they had no shoes on? It is pretty common to have ones shoes removed when hard wood floors are in homes, not sure if it is only a West Coast thing. To be honest I've never seen it where people ask for socks to also be removed except in the case of children (to try to stop that intentional slide they enjoy).

I enjoy the non magician audience members because, as Tom said, they act like audience members, magicians don't.
Message: Posted by: Review King (May 20, 2007 03:53PM)
I like David. He shows a real intrest and is watches carefully. I believe him that he is amazed because I've seen different reactions from him.

I do like that L&L is using pretty women now. Using local "showgirls" is very smart. And don't think these girls aren't smart. My little "bar" I go to has a club across the street and the girls come in on breaks. They are a blast to perfom for and if they catch a flash, etc. they tell you.

John Lovick gave a lecture in Phoenix and it was held in the back room of this place. John had all the Magi in the palm of his hand...UNTIL they girls came in. He never got their full attention again!
Message: Posted by: Salby (May 20, 2007 04:14PM)
Look-- about the whole feet thing.... I have NEVER heard of any event they everyone had the option to take off their shoes AND socks during a taping for a magic show for profit.... This is NOT someone's home... And even if it was, that is a studio room. I guess to get comfortable, I'll take my shoes off for a few hours at a play, cinema, or even a place where there are hard wood floors, like a museum or a church.

Am I offended?? No?? Just shocked that this audience is not being a little more respectful when viewing a professional show. I am more offended that L&L Publishing gave them that option to do for something they want to sell. Heck-- Why stop at the shoes and socks?? Why not get comfortable and men can take off their shirts also?? Or women wearing a bikini??? Because, face it-- It is not appropriate and no shoes and socks, I feel, is not appropriate for this setting either. They are SITTING DOWN and are comfortable. They are not walking around and on their feet all day.

I saw the "no shoes/no socks" on many occassions in that DVD set. I would imagine that in today's day and age, one can edit out those areas and yet, L&L Publishing can make sure that they are making sure that their audience is still "comfortable".

All I am saying is, where is a place inside that video-taping is done for a profit in a professional manner that people are not wearing shoes and socks??.... Maybe this is the "IN" thing now.... I am sure you have seen Daniel Garcia's PROJECT DVD's, where he does not wear shoes and socks during his explanations.

As for same spectators used in "old" videos and "new" videos.... Many are the same. Take a look and compare for yourself.
Message: Posted by: joseph (May 20, 2007 04:20PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-20 15:59, THEGUY26 wrote:
Yeah, I notices this too. They all act like laymen, even though they all probably get a free copy of the DVD/VHS.
[/quote]

"Performance Only"..We hope.. :) ..
Message: Posted by: paisa23 (May 20, 2007 04:42PM)
3 girls in Wonders and Osterlind I believe are [b]WOW[/b] out of this world.
Message: Posted by: Salby (May 20, 2007 05:12PM)
Yes-- and about the "Sexy women"... I understand that "Sex Sells", but if you are seeing these women on the DVD, they obviously you already bought the DVD. In this case, sex doesn't sell, because none of these women are on the cover of the DVD on the shelf when you walk into the magic shop... However, I am eating my words because in this day and age, people see the advertisements NOT by the box, but by the video demos/advertisements online... So in that case, yes-- Sex does sell.

My take on the whole "audience-tested material" is simply to get a new audience each time that is randomly mixed... Just like picking a jury in the USA. If I see the same spectators or many sexy women or actors, etc., I am getting the idea that the reasoning for the specifically-selected audience is NOT to show the response of the effects that you just bought, but for some other reason by L&L Publishing.

A randomly mixed audience is the most appropriate, unbiased way to go.... Oprah does it.... Springer does it.... and everytime you, as a magician, performs at the same or different venue does it.

You want to see how the effect works in the REAL WORLD...

... NOT in a controlled setting.
Message: Posted by: Markymark (May 20, 2007 05:30PM)
Jerry Springer! I hear what you are saying but I believe with performers like Bill
Malone or Tommy Wonder they would great incredible reactions in any setting because of the people they are. I've got used to the L&L crowd now and I'm just
glad of the chance to see world class acts.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (May 20, 2007 06:13PM)
A trick is audience tested. And to ensure the success . . . also the audience is tested.
Message: Posted by: cfrye (May 20, 2007 07:22PM)
Selby,

The no shoes/sandals thing is a cultural difference between the East and West Coasts. I'm originally from Virginia, went to school in upstate New York, and played a lot of poker in Atlantic City. I moved to Portland, Oregon, in 1995 and have spent a lot of time in Nevada and California. I thought it was weird that folks would take off their shoes at a performance, but now it's no big deal to me.

The L&L Studios are in/near Lake Tahoe, California. It's a very laid-back part of the world where wearing sandals and kicking them off once you're inside isn't that unusual. It's just not the sort of thing you do on the East Coast, but it does happen on the West Coast in general and a lot more in Tahoe.



Curt
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (May 20, 2007 07:48PM)
[quote]
where is a place inside that video-taping is done for a profit in a professional manner that people are not wearing shoes and socks??.... [/quote]

I could answer that but I might have to delete my own post. ;)

Personally, I would find it more bizzare to go to a party where I had been before and NOT see people I had seen at the previous parties. But I do agree there are decisions made and they are decisions of commercial success. BTW the shoes off policy is no longer valid as Louis no longer lives at that house. You can seek comfort in knowing that with few exceptions everyone has their shoes on.

Santa, the broad statement is that the people there are employees of L&L or friends of employees. This is not the case. I got involved many years ago not knowing anyone from L&L at all, and the people I have invited over the years have also not know one person who works at L&L. It is a word of mouth thing... much like the best parties.

Not sure what "club" others are thinking of, but the inference I get hint of is totally off base... which doesn't really surprise me.
Message: Posted by: erlandish (May 20, 2007 08:04PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-20 18:12, Salby wrote:
You want to see how the effect works in the REAL WORLD...

... NOT in a controlled setting.
[/quote]

Audience reactions aren't really the most important part of the live performances on these DVDs. Really, what's important is how the magician works the audience from a technical standpoint -- how he controls angles, how the misdirection and timing might work, how actions are coordinated and covered, management of tense and relaxed attention, and so on. Audience reactions are a factor that will generally be in flux, and they aren't always relevant to you anyway -- just because the magician gets a strong reaction from one effect and not another doesn't always mean that you'll see a similar response if you perform the same two tricks on your audience.

If the point is to see how the effect plays in the real world, then you'd need lots of performances just to mitigate the problems caused by variations between those performances. How are they to know what to teach you when dealing with a heckler? They can't predict when and why you'll be heckled, or if you will at all. I do think there's a lot of value in being able to see a performer do the same trick for a wide variety of audiences, but given the limited space on DVDs, it would take up room that might better be used on other material.

And it's not just the trick itself, but its context in the course of an act. Daryl, at one point of his Card Revelations DVDs, has to deal with an unruly spectator who wants to change the process of the trick. While it was entertaining for me to watch personally, it's obvious what was going on -- they'd seen one too many pick-a-card tricks. If I were to base my perception of the trick based upon that single reaction, it would be a gross mistake, since most performers might do only one of those tricks. I might be underestimating its strength. Similarly, I might be overestimating the strength of another routine if I see it get strong reactions in another setting. What's more, I might believe that because Daryl's trick got challenged by the spectator, it means that there's something that needs addressing, a structural flaw, perhaps. Similarly, I might look at a routine that plays very strong and assume that it has no structural flaws because it gets no challenges.

The only reliable tests in this sense are your own performances of the effects.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (May 20, 2007 08:27PM)
Thank you for clearing that up Tom. I certainly wasn't guessing at the number of employees they have, I never assumed they had many, and figured the audience members knew each other. Since they accept people who don't know anyone and should they need a fat guy in the audience feel free to let me know, I can be there in a bit over an hour. I'm still not sure why Selby is so disturbed. He wants natural reactions, you won't get that anywhere cameras are present.
Message: Posted by: Kaylan (May 20, 2007 08:41PM)
I've been to a couple dozen shoots at L&L over the years (granted, I was not one of the "front row" people), and I'm a magician, and I was never been paid. As Tom pointed out, we used to take off our shoes out of respect for Louis' wishes - he wanted to protect his floors...it has nothing to do with Lake Tahoe or West Cost, etc.

People put WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on the audience (like you, Salby).

Let me ask you this...if you found out that L&L put out a DVD set with some magician who perhaps was not that great, but you knew there was an entirely new audience watching the shoot - would you go buy those DVDs? Hmmm...

Another question...if your favorite magician or mentalist came out with a new DVD set and you knew the same audience would be present...would that stop you from buying the DVDs?

Another question...you go out and perform somewhere, do you think you'll have the same audience as any other audience on any other DVD in existence? You won't, so why does it matter who the heck is in the audience at L&L's studios???

I may seem defensive, but that's because everyone at L&L rocks. They are extremely friendly, outgoing, wonderful people. Louis is a gracious host and a very smart business man. I used to drive over 200 miles each way to attend the shoots. The folks in the audience genuinely like being there and are there to see some wonderful magic, have a great time, and socialize. I think that Louis feels comfortable with the people who regularly show up, and sales are probably just fine, so why mess with a good thing?

Try to understand, Salby.

Kaylan :)

PS...Salby, we actually do have real jobs (I'm a Social Worker), and most of the audience members do not even get the videos when they come out...because most of them do not want to know the explanations...they truly love the magic (believe it or not).
Message: Posted by: Count Lustig (May 20, 2007 10:47PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-20 16:19, randirain wrote:
I would guess they are like the people on the infomercials you see on TV.
They probably get a few bucks for watching and clapping.[/quote]

You are completely correct in saying that they [i]act[/i] exactly like infomercial audiences.
Message: Posted by: Review King (May 20, 2007 10:59PM)
I would love DVD shoots to be done real world. Real people, real reactions.

But...if it's going to be in a studio, then I'm all for having it be filled with gorgeous ladies. Why? I'm A GUY. That's why.
Message: Posted by: toomuchmagic (May 20, 2007 11:40PM)
GET OVER IT. Especially the feet thing. I am not a huge fan of feet myself, but that has nothing to do with these videos.

L&L DVDs are very entertaining and I love their resident audience. John for one cracks me the heck up. I would pay him to be at every one of my shows... and I must admit its fun imagining what kind of "dancers' those girls are.

Those people are the perfect audience. While at times they may seem to over-act...I think that a lot of their reactions are real. I've seen some of these videos hundreds of times and I still laugh out loud at some of the jokes.


feet feet feet AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Message: Posted by: randirain (May 20, 2007 11:55PM)
They sure look like infomercial people to me.
And the girl that helped Michael Finney was a topless dancer.
Sure makes me think that she was there just to earn a quick buck.

Randi
Message: Posted by: Xiqual (May 21, 2007 01:32AM)
All of this talk of the audiences, don't you watch the DVD? All the L&L DVDs I have are incredible. Osterlind, Wonder, Malone, Daryl, I can't think of a bad one.

I'm too busy learning to care about the audience. Crazy.
James
Message: Posted by: Bananafish (May 21, 2007 08:17AM)
[quote]
All of this talk of the audiences, don't you watch the DVD? All the L&L DVDs I have are incredible. Osterlind, Wonder, Malone, Daryl, I can't think of a bad one.
[/quote]
I agree with that.

There is no denying that the L&L audiences are perhaps a little too over enthusiastic at times to make them 100% credible as a real lay-audience. John [b]'no way!'[/b] is perhaps the biggest culprit here, but frankly so what?

As James says - these DVDs are all excellent in every way. They are bought for what can be learnt on them. Not as a "show" and besides it is pretty easy to judge which effects are going to be the really strong ones regardless of how the L&L crowd react. They obviously still all love magic (even after all these years).

As it happens I have got quite fond of them over the years. It's like seeing old friends again whenever I get a new set.

(Yes I appreciate that probably makes me quite sad).
Message: Posted by: randirain (May 21, 2007 09:50AM)
I don't really care about the audience.
But it is hard not to notice.

Randi
Message: Posted by: Ryan clark (May 21, 2007 12:39PM)
There is nothing wrong with the audiences at L and L , as someone else pointed out John is hilarious, and I would PAY him to be at one of my freaking shows LOL.
Message: Posted by: toomuchmagic (May 21, 2007 03:24PM)
Honestly though, I don't think John could be faking those NO WAYS.

If so he is a better actor than most people in film. I bet a majority of those are real reactions...from an experienced....but happy audience.
Message: Posted by: Review King (May 21, 2007 04:42PM)
Louis must have told Janel " stop saying oh my GOD" every 20 seconds".
Message: Posted by: Tim Trono (May 21, 2007 06:47PM)
Having attended a number of shoots I can assure you that the reactions are not coaxed or scripted. The performers have to work for the reactions. These audience members are people who love magic and who feel very comfortable being in front of the camera. L&L has they have a formula that works. It is VERY VERY difficult to capture real reactions. Often when you turn on the camera people clam up. I've done productions where people are very vibrant in person and love watching magic but the second you turn on the lights and cameras they become like zombies- very uncomfortable, quiet, tense, no reactions, etc. And there is nothing worse than watching a DVD of an audience with NO reactions. What L&L has done is very smart... they have found a group of people they can rely on... they can rely to show up; they can rely on to give good, honest reactions if they see something amazing; they can rely on to sit through hours of shooting under hot lights; etc. They don't bring in an unknown factor that can ruin or dramatically hinder a performance with no reactions. L&L treats them well... they feed them, try to be as hospitable as possible, etc. so that they will keep coming back.

Tim
Message: Posted by: Kaylan (May 21, 2007 07:37PM)
What Tim said
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (May 21, 2007 08:33PM)
..and Janel is a total hottie. :)
Message: Posted by: mormonyoyoman (May 21, 2007 08:34PM)
Well now, I was one of those people who referred to the L&L audience as "a professional audience." But then I started working some of Richard Osterlind's material, and I got reactions just like Jon's and Janelle's -- so I had to back down.

Maybe the material really is that good, no?

*jeep!
--Granpa Chet
Message: Posted by: Count Lustig (May 22, 2007 02:06AM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-21 21:34, mormonyoyoman wrote:
Maybe the material really is that good, no?
[/quote]
Except that they react exactly the same way to every single trick performed by every single performer.
Message: Posted by: TAJ (May 22, 2007 04:44AM)
I think you're jealous because no one invited you to the shoot. Watch the performer not the audience!
Message: Posted by: lumberjohn (May 22, 2007 06:51AM)
My favorite moment had to be on one of Jay Sankey's "Very Best" DVDs during his "Stirring Silver" routine when Jay did a gag move that not even a seven year old would have found magical and John gave his normal response of "No Way!" or something like that. Jay stopped, looked directly at him and said "Are you retarded?" John looked a little hurt for a second, but was back in true form within no time. Though it perhaps wasn't the most appropriate comment, I did have to give Jay credit for throwing a flag on some excessive celebration.
Message: Posted by: Review King (May 22, 2007 11:32AM)
I've always liked the L&L audience. Nice folks enjoying magic.
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (May 22, 2007 03:09PM)
If you do a search you will find comments from Osterlind and other performers that had worried about the L&L audiance reactions not being real etc... Read what they found out for themselfs and you will see the thoughts on these people being paid reactions fake etc.. are not correct
Message: Posted by: korttihai_82 (May 22, 2007 03:43PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-22 07:51, lumberjohn wrote:
My favorite moment had to be on one of Jay Sankey's "Very Best" DVDs during his "Stirring Silver" routine when Jay did a gag move that not even a seven year old would have found magical and John gave his normal response of "No Way!" or something like that. Jay stopped, looked directly at him and said "Are you retarded?" John looked a little hurt for a second, but was back in true form within no time. Though it perhaps wasn't the most appropriate comment, I did have to give Jay credit for throwing a flag on some excessive celebration.
[/quote]

Same with on some of the Petricks and Mias DVD. Petrick cut the the piece of robe into two, or was it ribbon, cant remember, but anyway he got UUUHS, AAAHS, WOWS and applauds for that. *** I wish all audiences were like in Lake Tahoe...

But seriously. If you watch older tapes like Michael Closes and first Ammars and so on, the audience werent so wild back on those days althought it is mainly the same people. It is very possible that they have just become to be comfortable infront of cameras but I still believe that some of them have become way too aware off it at the same time and doing maybe some acting. Especially because I find it hard to believe that everything is allways shot in 1 take...
Message: Posted by: inidyls (May 22, 2007 04:30PM)
Is it true that the L&L girls are putting out a calender?
Message: Posted by: eheng (May 22, 2007 04:58PM)
<grin>

Another L&L best seller.
Message: Posted by: Mark R. Williams (May 23, 2007 04:10PM)
I simply ADORE all those L&L Women!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

M
Message: Posted by: mormonyoyoman (May 23, 2007 04:41PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-22 07:51, lumberjohn wrote:
My favorite moment had to be on one of Jay Sankey's "Very Best" DVDs during his "Stirring Silver" routine when Jay did a gag move that not even a seven year old would have found magical and John gave his normal response of "No Way!" or something like that. Jay stopped, looked directly at him and said "Are you retarded?" John looked a little hurt for a second, but was back in true form within no time. Though it perhaps wasn't the most appropriate comment, I did have to give Jay credit for throwing a flag on some excessive celebration.
[/quote]

I would have thought Sankey had better audience management skills than that. He doesn't seem that rude and monsterous in his more current videos with audiences -- perhaps he's matured since then?

*jeep!
--Granpa Chet (Who has NO patience with entertainers who take out their frustrations on their audiences.)
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (May 23, 2007 09:12PM)
I personally do not care about the women on the tapes. I buy a DVD for the magic, not the woman - there are better offers out there . . .

Frankly, it is difficult for me to understand this hype around the audience on the tape.
Message: Posted by: inidyls (May 24, 2007 09:15PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-22 17:30, inidyls wrote:
Is it true that the L&L girls are putting out a calender?
[/quote]

Actually I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I heard L&L are seriously thinking about this.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (May 25, 2007 11:34AM)
The person you heard it from was not being truthful with you.
Message: Posted by: Majestic12 (May 25, 2007 12:01PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-22 07:51, lumberjohn wrote:
My favorite moment had to be on one of Jay Sankey's "Very Best" DVDs during his "Stirring Silver" routine when Jay did a gag move that not even a seven year old would have found magical and John gave his normal response of "No Way!" or something like that. Jay stopped, looked directly at him and said "Are you retarded?" John looked a little hurt for a second, but was back in true form within no time. Though it perhaps wasn't the most appropriate comment, I did have to give Jay credit for throwing a flag on some excessive celebration.
[/quote]

I just watched this again and was laughing so hard.
Message: Posted by: Kip Stevens (May 25, 2007 03:37PM)
Holy Monteroli!!!!

Dude, I thought laughing at those who are mentally deficient went out with the dinosaurs!!!

I certainly DID NOT think there'd be any of those types of people on these boards!!!

I've lost a litle faith here.

The last time I saw evidence of this behaviour was when I was knee height to a grasshopper in the playground!!!

There's some SERIOUS reconsideration needed here folks!?!

Thinking caps on guys, let's NOT poke fun at retards, spastics, raspberry ripples or whatever you might refer to them as. They are HUMAN BEINGS, and unlucky ones at that.

I've said my piece.

Kip
Message: Posted by: Majestic12 (May 25, 2007 03:43PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-25 16:37, Kip Stevens wrote:
Holy Monteroli!!!!

Dude, I thought laughing at those who are mentally deficient went out with the dinosaurs!!!

I certainly DID NOT think there'd be any of those types of people on these boards!!!

I've lost a litle faith here.

The last time I saw evidence of this behaviour was when I was knee height to a grasshopper in the playground!!!

There's some SERIOUS reconsideration needed here folks!?!

Thinking caps on guys, let's NOT poke fun at retards, spastics, raspberry ripples or whatever you might refer to them as. They are HUMAN BEINGS, and unlucky ones at that.

I've said my piece.

Kip


[/quote]

I was laughing at Jay Sankey and to my knowledge the guy isn't mentally handicapped.
Message: Posted by: Trick Style (May 25, 2007 03:44PM)
I'm sure Jay regrets it. He looked a bit embarrased immediately after he'd said it on the video. I'm surprised it wasn't cut or re-shot.
Message: Posted by: inidyls (May 25, 2007 03:54PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-25 16:44, Trick Style wrote:
I'm sure Jay regrets it. He looked a bit embarrased immediately after he'd said it on the video. I'm surprised it wasn't cut or re-shot.
[/quote]

Actually , he's not sorry we were talking about this a while back. His words about this was pretty funny too , but I'm not the one to gossip . I'll let jay do that.
Message: Posted by: Ryan Matney (May 25, 2007 09:56PM)
I miss David in the audience, what happened to him?
Message: Posted by: lumberjohn (May 25, 2007 11:19PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-25 16:37, Kip Stevens wrote:
Dude, I thought laughing at those who are mentally deficient went out with the dinosaurs!!!

I certainly DID NOT think there'd be any of those types of people on these boards!!!

I've lost a litle faith here.

There's some SERIOUS reconsideration needed here folks!?!

Thinking caps on guys, let's NOT poke fun at retards, spastics, raspberry ripples or whatever you might refer to them as. They are HUMAN BEINGS, and unlucky ones at that.

I've said my piece.

Kip
[/quote]

Dude, nobody is poking fun of the mentally deficient. John is regularly over the top and Jay was simply calling him on it. For many of us that have sat through countless exclamations of unwarranted amazement from John, it was a cathartic moment.
Message: Posted by: RC4MAG (May 26, 2007 05:28AM)
Max Maven on the NOTHING set of DVDs explains that he insisted on a new audience for that particular shoot.
Message: Posted by: joseph (May 26, 2007 07:45AM)
Bring back Jon & David!... :) ..
Message: Posted by: inidyls (May 26, 2007 10:53AM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-26 06:28, RC4MAG wrote:
Max Maven on the NOTHING set of DVDs explains that he insisted on a new audience for that particular shoot.

[/quote]

Who cares, you put yourself in the lime light be prepared to get critisized. We should all know that by now.
Message: Posted by: Platt (May 27, 2007 01:04PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-22 07:51, lumberjohn wrote:
My favorite moment had to be on one of Jay Sankey's "Very Best" DVDs during his "Stirring Silver" routine when Jay did a gag move that not even a seven year old would have found magical and John gave his normal response of "No Way!" or something like that. Jay stopped, looked directly at him and said "Are you retarded?" John looked a little hurt for a second, but was back in true form within no time. Though it perhaps wasn't the most appropriate comment, I did have to give Jay credit for throwing a flag on some excessive celebration.
[/quote]

I'll have to pick up the DVD just for that. I'm generally not amused when people use the word "retarded." But considering who it was directed to, that sounds like the funniest thing Jay Sankey has ever said.
Message: Posted by: lumberjohn (May 28, 2007 03:41PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-27 14:04, Platt wrote:
I'll have to pick up the DVD just for that. I'm generally not amused when people use the word "retarded." But considering who it was directed to, that sounds like the funniest thing Jay Sankey has ever said.
[/quote]

This clip can also be found on L&L's "World's Greatest Finger Ring Magic" DVD. Good bang for your buck there.
Message: Posted by: jstone (May 30, 2007 01:40AM)
[quote]On 2007-05-21 19:47, Tim Trono wrote:
It is VERY VERY difficult to capture real reactions. Often when you turn on the camera people clam up. I've done productions where people are very vibrant in person and love watching magic but the second you turn on the lights and cameras they become like zombies- very uncomfortable, quiet, tense, no reactions, etc.
Tim
[/quote]

Tim,

You bring up a great point. The first shooting of my first DVD was completely scrapped because the audience, although the were friends of mine who love my magic, froze up when the lights and camera came on. Their reactions were too contrived because they were trying to "help" by "reacting." Had they just reacted the way the normally do when I show them magic, it would have been awesome.

They were just too nervous and self-conscious. Anyway, we ended up scrapping the first shoot, and redoing it without an audience. I've received some feedback about the DVD that we should have used an audience. It's a tough position. You have to sacrifice either way.

Louis is in a wonderful position like you said. He's got something that works. Frankly, I'm jealous. I wish I could get non-nervous reactions like he does on the L&L vids. So as it stands now, my current DVD and the one we'll be shooting in the fall are both to be audience-less. :(
Message: Posted by: Review King (May 30, 2007 05:58PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-22 07:51, lumberjohn wrote:
My favorite moment had to be on one of Jay Sankey's "Very Best" DVDs during his "Stirring Silver" routine when Jay did a gag move that not even a seven year old would have found magical and John gave his normal response of "No Way!" or something like that. Jay stopped, looked directly at him and said "Are you retarded?" John looked a little hurt for a second, but was back in true form within no time. Though it perhaps wasn't the most appropriate comment, I did have to give Jay credit for throwing a flag on some excessive celebration.
[/quote]
I watched this twice today and this is what happened:

Jay is starting his "stirring silver" routine with a spoon. He does a bad ( it's supposed to be ) effect with the spoon and the audience laughs ( because they don't know what else to do ). John, who is right up front, jokingly claps for the effect. John is making light of Jay's "joke" effect.

Jay, being a stand up comic, seizes the moment and asks John "are you retarded"? Everyone laughs ( including a guy behind John, with a light beard, that actually looks retarded ).

Jay appologizes about using the word retarded and askes John "are you an idiot"? Everyone laughs ( including a guy behind John, with a light beard, that actually looks like an idiot).

Jay then says he was kidding and tells that John has been the nicest person there and asks them to give him a round of applause.

It was a fun moment and because the world is so P.C. these days, everyone walks on egg shells. Everyone is so over sensitive.

My Dad is dying of lung cancer. He's my hero and I'm so sad over it. But....The other day a comic told a cancer joke. I laughed so hard. It was [b]funny[/b]. I didn't sulk and moan "he wouldn't kae those jokes if his Dad had cancer".

The world needs to lighten up.
Message: Posted by: Tyler (Jun 19, 2007 09:49PM)
TAJ - great pic, especially as it relates to the thread! I spit out my drink when I saw it. Thanks for the moment!

Mike
Message: Posted by: TAJ (Jun 20, 2007 05:01AM)
I don't know what you mean Mike. It took 45 minutes of posing in the mirror to get that look.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jul 3, 2007 05:41PM)
I think it would be cool to gather the L&L audience and get their honest individual opinions on their experiences. Did they have a favorite performer? Who made them laugh the most? Which shoot was most "party" like? Which shoot was most exhausting? Which one effect really blew your mind? Which performer was most personable? Which was most "guarded"? What interesting/unexpected/unusual things (if any) happened when the camera wasn't rolling? What interesting thing was revealed about a performer that the general public doesn't know? Etc., etc.

Kaylan already gave a hint of what it's like, thanks Kaylan. But I, for one, would love to hear the answers to the above questions (and whatever else they have to offer ) from several of the regulars. Just a thought.


Ron
:)
Message: Posted by: The Amazing Noobini (Aug 2, 2007 06:43PM)
I actually found this thread from searching specifically for some of these audience member's names. There just had to be a thread discussing this. Hehe.

I like these guys. Wish I'd had a couple of them auditioning for some of the bad short films I have made.

There are moments of bad acting tho. Or over acting I should say. The key word is acting. It doesn't mean that they aren't impressed. They just emphasize it a little. Those who are in the most videos seems to do it the most. It's quite funny when it goes a little too far over the top, as in Tommy Wonder's AC and ring box routine. (which actually almost had me stand up and shout "oh my gawd" as well, come to think of it).

Many people do this sort of thing who are not hired actors. It happens to humans when they are put center stage. Ricki Lake audiences do it... people at witch trials were famous for it. Foaming nicely at the mouth. I guess it is the same quality which makes stage hypnosis work. And speaking in tongues.

But here... probably more acting than being carried away by the crowd. How many ambitious card routines must these guys not have seen? And still gasps of amazement when the card actually appears on top. Of course they need to act. If not they would simply appear to stare bored into the horizon, drifting off into thoughts of other things. Video exaggerates lack of reaction too.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Aug 2, 2007 07:16PM)
More assumptions from someone with no interaction with the people and situations being discussed here. I can tell you all, and I have about a billion times already ;) , these are REAL reactions for these people. It has NOTHING to do with the camera being on or off. Out on the deck between sessions these few "accused over the top" are just as blown away and animated by Tom Allen doing card and coin tricks as they are during the shoot. It is their NATURE. Any person who has worked their fair share of intimate settings where people can feel comfortable reacting in their natural, albeit quite animated, manner knows these people exist and they bring another level of life to a show.

And about those witch trials... very interesting that as we look back it is the accusers, not the accused who were grossly out of line. A fitting comparison you have chosen. Fits as well with the refusal to accept the observations of those who actually have been there and experienced this first hand.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Aug 2, 2007 07:53PM)
My FAVORITE L&L person is Leann Dyer. She works for them and she is in many of the shoots. Usualy in the back, where you can catch her honest reactions. She is the one doing the spongeball trcik with Michael Finney on his shoot. She's so into the magic and. She's funny, smart and ok, gorgeous.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Aug 2, 2007 10:47PM)
Usually, the spectators are warmed up before the show - at least in TV shows. So by the time the real act begins, they are in such a good mood that even a small joke brings down the house. Very different compared to a "cold" audience.
Message: Posted by: The Amazing Noobini (Aug 2, 2007 10:50PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-02 20:53, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
My FAVORITE L&L person is Leann Dyer. She works for them and she is in many of the shoots. Usualy in the back, where you can catch her honest reactions. She is the one doing the spongeball trcik with Michael Finney on his shoot. She's so into the magic and. She's funny, smart and ok, gorgeous.
[/quote]

Seems like everyone has a favourite L&L person. They should publish a calendar. :)
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Aug 2, 2007 11:15PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-02 23:47, Andy the cardician wrote:
Usually, the spectators are warmed up before the show - at least in TV shows. So by the time the real act begins, they are in such a good mood that even a small joke brings down the house. Very different compared to a "cold" audience.

[/quote]
And since you've never been to an L&L shoot you really have no idea that this doesn't happen. So your point in regards to L&L audiences is moot.
Message: Posted by: mitchb2 (Aug 3, 2007 07:54AM)
[quote]
and I got reactions just like Jon's and Janelle's
[/quote]

Is Jon the guy with the moustache who is usually right next to the performer?
I love that guy. His laugh is infectious.
Message: Posted by: Magikrn (Sep 7, 2007 06:22PM)
The girl to Steve Dacri's left in his no filler set is by far the best looking girl I've seen yet. Janelle is a close second.


Anyway, to the original poster. You talk about these not being audience tested routines. Are these not seasoned performers on these dvds? Are these not the same effects they use on a daily basis? When you read an effect out of a book, do you get to see audience reactions?

Something to think about.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Oct 2, 2007 05:26PM)
I love almost all girls in L&L :D :D sometimes I mostly watch the girls :D
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (Oct 2, 2007 11:00PM)
If Janelle is in the audience, I'm a happy camper.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Oct 7, 2007 07:21PM)
This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. Like Tom Cutts, I've been going to Louis' Falanga's shoots for years. In fact, I've attended shoots of his in 4 different locations. One was a shoot of Michael Ammar lecturing at a magic convention, another was shot in Sacramento at a rented room in a Hotel. Bruce Cervon was the performer and I was "on camera." Then, I saw one of the early Jeff McBryde shoots at Louis's first home in Tahoe. The majority have been at the current location which used to be Louis' home, too. Yes, on shoot day it becomes a studio, but it's a great big beautiful home with a spectacular view of Lake Tahoe.

So, understand this: no one is paid money to be there. The magicians in the audience do receive a DVD or L & L book or something in exchange for giving up a day to be part of the audience. The audience is in a pretty good mood, because they prepare a nice big breakfast for everyone that gets there early enough. There's a break around noon and another nice meal is served.

No one "warm's up the audience." Actually, when Mike Close was there, he had a million jokes and told a few before the first shooting segment. During breaks he also told more jokes. But that's just Mike. He loves Jokes and love to share them. (He's just released a new book of his favorite jokes, by the way.)

There are no flashing signs to tell the group to applaud or laugh. We do know that on the DVDs audience applause is used to bridge the segments together, so at the beginning of each shot, we do applaud. But it's not the wild, intense applause filled with laughter which you see at the end of some routines. This has to be earned by the performers. And Louis brings in some of the best performers in the world, so why do you find it so surprising that they get these kinds of reactions? The people that come back again and again are there partly because they love magic. Sure, it's not a secret that Louis puts the pretty girls in the front row... but that's just eye candy. Most magicians are guys and do not mind this one bit.

L & L sets the standard for Video Magic DVDs, and I'm a guy that has produced a few DVDs myself. I know how hard it is to pull a project like this together, and if you have not done it or been involved in it, you don't know how hard that Louis and Andy and the gang work to make their DVDs entertaining and educational.

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: boris (Oct 9, 2007 05:32PM)
I have just shot DVDs for L&L Publishing and everything Dennis said is true. The people in the audience enjoy magic a lot and are there to have fun. That's it. And you will see many new (pretty) faces in the forthcoming DVDs they will release!
But what is the most important is the quality of the videos (which are now shot in Widescreen HD). I can tell they work really hard to offer the best teaching videos in magic.

Boris Wild
Message: Posted by: Review King (Oct 9, 2007 05:44PM)
I wish Leann Dyer would sit at the table. She has been one of the best audience members ever. Her expressions tell it all. She was up front with Michael Finney and did the spongeball rotuine with him. How could anyone not fall in love with her after that performance!

Louis now wisely uses "show girls" in the shoots.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 9, 2007 06:03PM)
Boris! Last time I saw you you were off to see Gwen Steffani (forgive spelling) with a big grin on your face. I wish I knew you were in Tahoe, I would have loved to have seen you. Will your new DVD have your FISM material?
Message: Posted by: boris (Oct 10, 2007 03:55AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-09 19:03, MagicSanta wrote:
Boris! Last time I saw you you were off to see Gwen Steffani (forgive spelling) with a big grin on your face. I wish I knew you were in Tahoe, I would have loved to have seen you. Will your new DVD have your FISM material?
[/quote]

Gwen Stefani in concert in Reno with a guest pass: it was indeed a great night! :)
I shot the DVDs on Bastille Day (not bad from French guy!) and I just came to Tahoe for the shooting. I could not stay longer because of a very busy schedule.
Anyway, I hope you will enjoy the DVDs... and yes, they will include my FISM material!

Boris
Message: Posted by: Steve Pellegrino (Oct 10, 2007 10:15AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-09 18:32, boris wrote:
I have just shot DVDs for L&L Publishing and everything Dennis said is true. The people in the audience enjoy magic a lot and are there to have fun. That's it. And you will see many new (pretty) faces in the forthcoming DVDs they will release!
But what is the most important is the quality of the videos (which are now shot in Widescreen HD). I can tell they work really hard to offer the best teaching videos in magic.

Boris Wild
[/quote]

This topic comes up from time to time as a new discussion. I guess it's because whoever starts these never uses the search function to read the other disucssions. This has all been talked about before.

Had some of you read those other discussions you would seen that guys like Richard Osterlind, John Mendoza and others have said what Boris, Tom Cutts & Dennis Loomis just said here about the audiences.

I've been working with L&L for over 3 years and have had to privilege to see every release in that time. What strikes me about discussions like this is why you're focusing on the audiences when if you look at the catalog of L&L titles, you can't help but be overwhelmed by the names that are available. Then you should stop and think of some of the magicians who have passed away in the last few years and how fortunate we are that L&L has an excellent record of their work - work that may have been lost or forgotten otherwise.

Boris also mentioned new audiences. On the new Bill Malone DVDs (soon to be released), 99% of the audience is new. You'll see a few familiar faces, guys like Frank for example, but not every new L&L release will have a new audience and that is because of when the DVD was shot and released.

All shoots take place over the summer and Louis books up as many as he can. But throughout the year he doesn't release as many as he's shot, so there are still some titles from a couple of years ago that are not out. These are the DVDs that will have a familiar audience.
Message: Posted by: Jeff Corn (Oct 10, 2007 10:27AM)
On the note of DVDs shot, but not released yet, any word on the new Paul Wilson set?
Message: Posted by: Steve Pellegrino (Oct 10, 2007 12:01PM)
No news on Paul Wilson's set. Louis doesn't spill the beans on this stuff. I only find out about new releases about 2 months before the release. I'm looking forward to Wilson's set as well.

There's a lot of good stuff that is waiting for release - Jim Swain, Boris, Hilford and others. We might even get a new book out of L&L before the end of the year! We'll just have to wait and see.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Oct 10, 2007 01:36PM)
I'm glad Frank will still be there. His reactiions are quite honest. He's the perfect audience member for these shoots. He's intelligent and polite. He claps when it's owver, but if he's fooled and really likes it, he gets the biggest smile, chuckles and becomes a bit more annimated.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Oct 10, 2007 02:53PM)
I was lucky enough to be present for the Boris Wild Shoot. Boris is an outstanding performer. He works entirely with cards, but was able to hold our attention throughout the entire shoot. Card workers... this is another "must have" DVD from L & L. I'm anxiously awaiting the release.

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 10, 2007 03:41PM)
Everytime I drive through Loomis I think of you Dennis....

Boris is a very good performer and his FISM act will suit all you guys who think magic can get you women....it still won't but if you were a suave French dude like Boris it works.
Message: Posted by: boris (Oct 10, 2007 05:08PM)
Thank you guys for your kind words.

Boris
Message: Posted by: ku7uk3 (Oct 11, 2007 05:08PM)
I wonder if the audience get paid for being in the video? or are they doing it for free, since they get to watch a free magic show?

Steve
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 11, 2007 09:51PM)
I'll tell you something...I was in L&L country today (I don't know exactly where they are but was in town) and if they are in Tahoma the sign says population 200. Next up is Incline Villiage, which isn't much larger. I don't think they have much choice but to use the same people! Beautiful area though, Louis is smart to headquarter there.

Note: before anyone says that there are other towns that could supply people I am aware of that.
Message: Posted by: Wayne Whiting (Oct 13, 2007 06:30AM)
Magic Santa - You say "next up is Incline Village, which isn't much larger." Incline Village has about 9000 residents. It's not next up either as Tahoe City is only a 15 minute drive with 1800 residents.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 13, 2007 11:18AM)
And you can go 40 minutes away and be at Carson City with loads of people, thirty minutes further than that is Reno with more peope, make a right rather than a left and you can hit Stateline....I put my statement about other towns near by to avoid listening to people who think L&L should bus in people.

Let me make this clear Wayne....I was giving a general statement about the area being sparsly population not providing a road map for people who want to tour the area. In case you really want to know I took the wife on a drive up the grade out of Mindon, Nv, hooked through through Stateline, South Lake Tahoe, Tahoe City (yes, I'm aware there are other areas designated as 'towns' between South Lake Tahoe and Tahoe City but I don't really care to list them) then rather than going up toward Truckee I continued around the lake through Tahoma and Incline Villiage, whos sign is incorrect as to population based on your statement. Thus Tahoe City as not next after incline or Tahoma based on the direction I was driving. I then went through other lil' towns, went down to Carson City, wanted Chinese so I went to Fernley after picking up my wifes friend. The towns I went through that I wasn't going to bother mentioning between Carson City and Fernley were Moundhouse, Dayton, Stage Coach, and Silver Springs.

Now what is your point?
Message: Posted by: magicelam (Oct 17, 2007 10:42AM)
Just wanted to chime in and say I LOOOOOOOOOOOVE the L&L audience... my friend Jeff and I always like to chuckle at them, almost like we know them, everytime we pop open a fresh L&L DVD, a new pack of cards, and an ice cold Cheerwine.

Except we don't really drink cheerwine when we do magic.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 17, 2007 12:11PM)
I went back up there and missed Tahoma completely! Drove through w/out knowing it. I checked Incline Villiage, they have 6000 people but the part on the highway isn't any larger than some of the little towns, it goes back into the mountain further. So clearly they should fire the audience and move to Incline .
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Oct 18, 2007 01:18AM)
I love the L&L audience. Seeing them over and over again makes me feel comfortable and warm, like turkey dinner at grandma's house. They are like a second family to me.

They are much more realistic and entertaining to watch then a bunch of drunken tourists walking around Las Vegas looking for street magicians to entertain them.
Message: Posted by: John T Cox (Nov 20, 2007 02:53PM)
I had never read this thread before though I too wondered about the familiar faces in the audiences.

However, the most hysterical thing about this was the orginal poster and his disgust at feet. Why feet? Why not ears, kneecaps or tongues? Feet come as a part of the package!

I love the L&L audiences. I wish all the magic videos that I have would have used an audience. It is important to see a routine presented to people - not for the people's response as much as for the magician's chance to interact with the audience. That is what is missing from DVD shoots which are purely in the studio. The magician is busy watching the camera or the monitor instead of interacting with people.
Message: Posted by: Mind Guerrilla (Nov 20, 2007 09:50PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-18 02:18, tdowell wrote:
I love the L&L audience. Seeing them over and over again makes me feel comfortable and warm, like turkey dinner at grandma's house. They are like a second family to me.[/quote]

(Gasp) And I thought I was the only one!

By the way how do you spell "Janelle"? They never cover it in the Explanations section.
Message: Posted by: ghostpianist (Nov 21, 2007 01:57AM)
Looks like L&L has heard your prayer, they've got a whole new set of audience for Bill Malone's DVD.
Message: Posted by: professorwhut (Nov 21, 2007 12:26PM)
Yes, I have noticed on some more recent L&L DVD's some new faces.
Absent are John, David and Janelle.
Message: Posted by: MentaThought (Nov 22, 2007 06:04PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-30 18:58, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:

Jay, being a stand up comic, seizes the moment and asks John "are you retarded"? Everyone laughs ( including a guy behind John, with a light beard, that actually looks retarded ).

Jay appologizes about using the word retarded and askes John "are you an idiot"? Everyone laughs ( including a guy behind John, with a light beard, that actually looks like an idiot).

[/quote]

LOL Now THAT'S funny!
Message: Posted by: thefliss (Nov 27, 2007 04:38PM)
Does John know he has reached the status of a cult figure? (Would he be happy to hear it?) Same goes for the rest the regulars... Keep in mind when you type, this is a public forum!
Message: Posted by: jstone (Nov 27, 2007 06:15PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-20 22:50, Mind Guerrilla wrote:

By the way how do you spell "Janelle"? They never cover it in the Explanations section.
[/quote]
Janel....

You gotta pay more attention when she signs her selected card :)
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Nov 27, 2007 10:35PM)
I confess that when I drive in that area I look for those people.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Nov 27, 2007 11:05PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-27 19:15, jstone wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-11-20 22:50, Mind Guerrilla wrote:

By the way how do you spell "Janelle"? They never cover it in the Explanations section.
[/quote]
Janel....

You gotta pay more attention when she signs her selected card :)
[/quote]

Figures yuu and I would do that!
Message: Posted by: teevtee (Nov 28, 2007 01:47PM)
Ha!

I have thought this same thing (damn repeat audience) for years but I had not seen this thread before.
I for one am a little sick of Frank. Now don't get me wrong, I am sure Frank is a fine guy, he seems very nice, but he is always front and center and often part of a little in joke... it is just too much focus on the audience and the same members for my taste. It makes the productions seem very small time and cheap.

Here is an idea for L&L... isn't there some small theater you can rent in town? Move the production OUT of your tiny little studio with 20 people sitting on folding chairs. When you are charging $100 for a couple of DVDs (Nothing) it would be nice to up the production values.

the idea of a real live audience is PERFECT but the same 20 people on folding chairs every time is dull and for me at least distracting. Rent a small theater, fill it up with people all given free tickets and allow the performers to really put on a real show... something more akin to a true real world performance. Frank and the rest could still attend, but there would be MANY others to equal things out.
Message: Posted by: Mind Guerrilla (Nov 28, 2007 11:54PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-27 17:38, thefliss wrote:
Does John know he has reached the status of a cult figure? (Would he be happy to hear it?) Same goes for the rest the regulars... Keep in mind when you type, this is a public forum!
[/quote]

We now need to mention Scotty and Margaret so they don't feel left out.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Nov 29, 2007 03:30AM)
[quote]
Rent a small theater, fill it up with people all given free tickets and allow the performers to really put on a real show.
[/quote]
Are you willing to pay an extra $10 per disc to cover that additional production cost?
Message: Posted by: teevtee (Nov 29, 2007 11:38AM)
Tom:

Yes, I would pay more for better production values and more realistic / diverse locations. I place a high value (perhaps higher than most) on those. Magic DVDs already sell for much higher prices than mass released DVDs (Nothing by Max Maven sells for $100 for example) so one may argue that there should be enough profit to up the production a bit. But with that said yes, I absolutely would pay $10 more.

Steve:

I have a lot of experience in video production having either produced, edited or directed many commercially released DVDs (none magic related). Because of this I admit that I am probably much more sensitive to production issues than most. However I also know that what I am suggesting is not only very feasible (and not really for that much additional cost) but would produce a much greater product.

Your examples (for the most part) do not ring true for me. No Camera Tricks is shot 90% in studio and even those you mention which are not are generally shot on location in a bar or what have you. I am suggesting a more formal stage situation at an actual live theater. In essence I am saying they should put on a live show and document it, much as someone may document a concert. This does not have to be a huge production, trust me. Two to three hand-helds and a master shot are all you REALLy need. This is comparable to what L&L is using now. I'm just saying pull it out of the studio and into a real world stage situation.

My intentions are not to bash L&L's work (and really don't think I have) or to create arguments, I mean to be totally constructive in my criticism. By shooting a true live show in a real theater with a larger and more diverse audience we would really get to see REAL reactions, see these performers in action is a more natural setting and also add some diversity to the crowd.

I admire L&L's work and own MANY DVDs from them (probably the great majority of their catalog) but I also know that with a small effort they can make some of the product even better.

You mentioned it earlier but Osterlind's No Camera Tricks would have been the PERFECT project to move out of the standard studio. The idea was to make TV quality performance videos, almost to the point in which commercials could be dropped in and then have it actually air. Now be honest, have you ever seen a TV show on air in a setting like L&L's studio? Even if the answer is yes you must admit that most performances you see on TV, be it magic or music or comedy or what have you, are filmed in theaters with real audiences. Even is you disagree with all of the No Camera Tricks ended up looking exactly like Osterland's other L&L DVDs instead of the unique product it was intended to be.

At the end of the day I enjoy L&L's products and I only am offering suggestions to improve them based on personal knowledge and experience.
Message: Posted by: teevtee (Nov 29, 2007 11:41AM)
Oh sorry, one last point.

Obviously I am only suggesting this type of venue (live theater) for an appropriate act. A straight close up magician would surely not be served by this, nor would a street performer. But many of the performers L&L deals with also work larger venues. Osterlind mentions how well many of his effects would work in a really big room (talking 300-500 maybe, nothing HUGE) so why not let us see it!

Imagine how cool it would be to see Richard running of stage into the audience and doing some little miracle in the back row... it just would have a lot more impact.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Nov 29, 2007 12:15PM)
Everyone should voice their opinions. If no one says anything, then improvements don't happen. I would have loved to see Malone in a bar/resturant setting with real patrons. Woudl I have paid more for the DVD set to have it happen? If it was a real establishment, with real people and I got to see how he really used to do it, yes I would.

The Party Animal DVD set ( non L&L ) was done in a real bar for real people and it was the best set of 2007 in my opinion ). The set wasn't anymore in price than L&L's. So, it can be done.

So I'd would also like to see real world conditions. It does make a diffence soemtimes. The Eddie Tullock "Tradeshow" tapes were in front of a non tradeshow L&L crowd and it showed. And don't get me started on the Fernando Keops set.


We ourselves can't always pick the audiences we get when we perform. But, if I was doing a shoot, I'd want:

John: He's having fun and reacting in a big way. As Malone said in his first shoot " Sir, would you mind moving around the room and making it seem like a crowd" ). One person can change the energy of a room.

In Tommy Wonders brilliant Ambitious Card routine he removes the little box and tells them this is a surprise for later. John says " it's not my watch is it?". FUNNY line and the crowd reacts with laughter ( Tania slaps John in a playful way beacuse it's so funny).

John is allot funnier and smarter than many have given him credit for. And anyone that works, you'd kill for a spectator like him.

David: He'd funny, reacts, but WATCHES very carefully. He's quite suspicious and wants to catch the Magician if he can. When he's fooled, he lts you know.

Frank: Charismatic and smart. He also watches carefully. He claps politely if it's "ok". When he's fooled, he grins like baby and applauds accordingly.

I realize we're consumers and watch these DVD's dozens and dozens of times over. We want to not only learn great magic but want to be entertained as well. There have been quite a few sets I didn't like, but it had to do with the performer not the crowd.

Jerry Seinfeld says "it's a poor performer that blames the crowd" ( sort of a variation on Vernon's "it's a poor artist that blames the brushes" line. Seinfeld puts the ownus on the perfomer.

I learn allot watching a GREAT performer struggle to get reactions form a luke warm room. I learn allot watching them with a friendly, we're here to have fun crowd as well.

Bill Malone didn't have the standard L&L crowd on his new Here I Go Again DVD's and he had to work to get recations as he didn't have John and David to play off of. There was a different vibe and it's made some folks not care for the set as much as his On The Loose series, yet I beleive it contains material that is just as strong.

One of the BEST DVD sets ever is The Richard Sanders Show and there is no crowd. The viewer is the audience. Go figure.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Nov 29, 2007 12:26PM)
TeeVee...remember they are in a very small town in a rustic area. Considering where they are they have a very impressive set up.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Nov 29, 2007 01:33PM)
A bit off-topic....

In "On the Loose....", Bill Malone performs "Sam the Bellhop". Early on he asks a male spectator what he does for a living. After a reply, Bill says, "Oh, that's ok, I'll go slower."

I can't make out what the spec said he does for a living, and for some STUPID reason, I want to know what that guy said that he does for a living. Just one of those quirks, I guess.

Anyone recall?
Message: Posted by: teevtee (Nov 29, 2007 03:53PM)
Magic Santa...

Right, I know they are not in LA or Chicago or New York. I think they are near Reno, right?

Anyway, who says they need to film it in their home town? Today's video cameras, even high end consumer models, are VERY capable of shooting in live theater environments and I don't think we are expecting full on broadcast quality. So they could go on location as it were. Put on a show in whatever town they choose and film it there. The possibilities are endless.

Again though, please do not take this as a put down of what L&L has done, I enjoy most of the DVDs very much. Rather think of it as ideas of how they can continue to grow and make even better product.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Nov 29, 2007 04:44PM)
About an hour from Reno.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Nov 29, 2007 05:32PM)
I love to see specs on the take, as I like to continue to learn also how to handle them. Doing a trick is one thing, but selling it is another.

My problem with some LL crowds are some of them do act. If you have seen a couple of sponge ball acts, would you still be amazed if the balls multiply in your hands?
Message: Posted by: Mumblemore (Nov 29, 2007 09:00PM)
I agree that they seem like infomercial people and do act, and I think this distracts from the magic. It would be better to see a more representative group of spectators.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Dec 3, 2007 06:07PM)
But then again, a crowd that sucks will pull down the best presentation. Do you want this on tape?
Message: Posted by: teevtee (Dec 3, 2007 08:40PM)
Maybe? Have you seen "Nothing" by Max Maven? You can't get an audience that sucks much worse than that!

Put a real performer in a real theater with a real audience and lets see what happens. Then go back to the living room, er, I mean "Studio" at L&L for the explanations.
Message: Posted by: fib (Dec 3, 2007 10:26PM)
Sorry, there is something wrong with John, and the reactions from most of the audience seem contrived. That about sums it up.
fib
Message: Posted by: bobn3 (Dec 4, 2007 02:49PM)
Oh yes, L&L should spend the money to hire a new audience for each and every shoot. We all would be more than happy to have that cost passed on to us.

Bob Phillips
Message: Posted by: jstone (Dec 4, 2007 04:23PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-04 15:49, bobn3 wrote:
Oh yes, L&L should spend the money to hire a new audience for each and every shoot. We all would be more than happy to have that cost passed on to us.

Bob Phillips
[/quote]

I'm pickin' up your sarcasm. :)
Message: Posted by: ted french (Dec 4, 2007 06:46PM)
Someone asked me if john has a developmental disability.

http://www.papercraneproductions.net
"Wrinkled" The ultimate ungimmicked raisin through sealed bottle coming in 2008.
Message: Posted by: teevtee (Dec 4, 2007 09:42PM)
Why would anyone have to PAY any audience? What the heck, the audience generally pays to attend a show... I would think a good performer offering FREE tickets could fill a small theater for God's sake.

But heck, maybe I am an idiot, I have been CHARGING for performances all this time, I guess I should have been paying people to attend. Silly me.
Message: Posted by: Joey Evans (Dec 5, 2007 12:19AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-04 17:23, jstone wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-04 15:49, bobn3 wrote:
Oh yes, L&L should spend the money to hire a new audience for each and every shoot. We all would be more than happy to have that cost passed on to us.

Bob Phillips
[/quote]

I'm pickin' up your sarcasm. :)
[/quote]

I hope so, cause I'm laying it on pretty thick.

From the best movie of all time...
Message: Posted by: Mind Guerrilla (Dec 5, 2007 11:43PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-03 21:40, teevtee wrote:
Have you seen "Nothing" by Max Maven? You can't get an audience that sucks much worse than that![/quote]

But can you get an audience that sucks much better? :)

I've seen it. I wouldn't blame the audience. I think the material presented was less than killer.
Message: Posted by: Joey Evans (Dec 6, 2007 11:17PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-06 00:43, Mind Guerrilla wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-03 21:40, teevtee wrote:
Have you seen "Nothing" by Max Maven? You can't get an audience that sucks much worse than that![/quote]

But can you get an audience that sucks much better? :)

I've seen it. I wouldn't blame the audience. I think the material presented was less than killer.
[/quote]

And the understatement of the century goes to Mind Guerilla!
Message: Posted by: Barrett_James (Dec 10, 2007 01:58PM)
Umm, so there is a Girls of L&L calendar coming out or not? <grinning>

Regards,

Barrett James
Message: Posted by: Mind Guerrilla (Dec 10, 2007 06:32PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-10 14:58, Barrett_James wrote:
Umm, so there is a Girls of L&L calendar coming out or not? <grinning>
[/quote]

I'm sorry, no. Would you settle for John in a thong? "OH! MAN!"
Message: Posted by: PaulPacific (Dec 29, 2007 12:04PM)
LOL @ L&L calendar! :)
Message: Posted by: JardiniMagic (Jan 1, 2008 07:53PM)
I Get tired of the same audiance but I concentrate on the performer it is him who I purchased the effect for In truth I could care less about the audiance!
Message: Posted by: evolve629 (Jan 1, 2008 08:10PM)
I see L&L has a banner right on top of this thread and then there's John G. response that the audience in his Second Storm as "absolutely priceless, a classic."
So I guess it really is quite a jeopardy!
Message: Posted by: JohnG (Jan 1, 2008 08:57PM)
Technically, the banner ad links to Murphy's Magic.
And to clarify, I said that a spectator's reply in my effect, "Vino Aces" was "classic...absolutely priceless."
Message: Posted by: evolve629 (Jan 2, 2008 09:52AM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-01 21:57, JohnG wrote:
Technically, the banner ad links to Murphy's Magic.
And to clarify, I said that a spectator's reply in my effect, "Vino Aces" was "classic...absolutely priceless."
[/quote]
Thank you for the clarification, John. I'm a huge fan of your magic and thanks again for the delineation. I didn't attempt to click on the banner to find out the actual advertiser, shame on me. :( And for the other part, this was what I read -
[quote]
On 2007-12-31 13:35, JohnG wrote:
Her response in "Vino Aces" was classic...absolutely priceless. Fun shoot.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: PhilJake (Mar 22, 2018 12:58PM)
You know you have a problem when you know the names of the LL audience. This is a funny thread but I think that most posts have forgotten that this is a studio performance and not a live audience performance. There is a big difference, I would love to see an outtake reel.
Some live performances are seemingly cherry picked for the best reactions and cuts from performance to performance. I think we all know not to rely on promo live performances anyway. A studio performance is set up for lighting and camera angles. Is it any different than a laugh track or scripted music. Perhaps even a do-over when the performer jumps ahead or skips something. Anyway in my opinion most of the audience participants add to the show and help to make the video entertaining.
Message: Posted by: Steven Leung (Mar 27, 2018 11:38PM)
Compare with those recent instant download paid actor audience with bikini, I prefer the old school L&L audience actually.