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Topic: List of cups and balls routine ... 


Could we start a comprehensive list of existing and recognised cups and balls routine? E.g Dai Vernon's routine and what's next? Let's list down here  1) Dai Vernon's cups and balls routine  source ? 2) ? 3) ? If the source of the routine is also available, I believe it would be be great to include in the list too. I believe this thread would be useful reference for cups and balls lovers. Thanks in advance for the participation. 


I think it might be close to duplicationg all of Lint's fine work. 


I was just thinking of having the routines only. I do not mean to duplicate Lint's wonderful work. We can ignore the books or sources. Basically I am trying to log down existing cups and balls act or routines, whether they are published or not. I have just ammended the original post so it would not duplicate Lint's work. Thanks for your thoughts. Ammended post ... Could we start a comprehensive list of existing and recognised cups and balls routine? E.g Dai Vernon's routine and how many cups were used in their routine? Let's list down here  1) Dai Vernon's cups and balls routine  3 cups 2) ? 3) ? I believe this thread would be useful reference for cups and balls lovers. Thanks in advance for the participation. 


Ammars 3 cups tommy wonders 2 cups paul gertner 3 cups carl andrews  2 cups those are the only ones I know =) 


Updating the list ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) ? 7) ? 


Thanks, Joshua Here's the updated list with your input ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) ? 


David Williamson  2 cups Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 


Thanks, Coachman. Here's the updated list ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) ? 


8) gazzo3 cups 1 hat 


David Regal  6 cups I may be wrong but didn't Frank Garcia have a cups and balls routine as well? Kent 


Thanks, Walid Ahumada. More updates ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) ? 


Thanks, Kent, your info has just been updated. More updates ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups 17) ? 


17)Rene lavand 1 CUP 


Frank Garcia  3 cups Several different routines Dai Vernon  One cup routine with Dollar Bills Larry Jennings 3 cup routine and 1 cup routines John Carney  Several different three cup routines and 1 one cup routine Robert White  3 cup routine 


Charlie Miller  Too numerous to mention 3 cup routines and Indian Cups and balls Pete Biro  Various as well Johnny Thomnpson  3 cup routine Mike Rogers  3 cup routine Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine Fred Caps  3 cups Jim Cellini  3 cups 


Aldo Colombini has published several different routines for three cups. John Mendoza has two three cup routines on one of his DVD's. There is the Guyot routine. There is the Ozanam routine. There is the Hocus Pocus Jr. routine from the first edition. There is the expanded Hocus Pocus Jr. routine from the second edition. 


A few more, including some blasts from the past  John Ramsay Johnny Paul Alex Elmsley Jim Ryan Laurie Ireland Charles Burton Ken Brooke Joe Berg Milton Kort Rafael Benatar Burtini John Platt Manuel Muerte Tom Mullica Dan Fleshman Eddie Joseph 


Eddie Joseph would have to be in there, somewhere, but there are a couple of factors to consider with his work. One is that he often improvised his routine. He had an encyclopedic knowledge of the trick, and published many different routines. The other is one I cannot confirm, but I have been told that Eddie's work with the cups and balls was somewhat disorganized. 


[quote] On 20070607 10:20, Bill Palmer wrote: ...I have been told that Eddie's work with the cups and balls was somewhat disorganized. [/quote] just take a look at any of his books! they trail off, jump around. its like he was just writing from his stream of thought! Also, some of his ideas on cup technique are clearly ideas that don't appear to have been backed up with much thought! :) I wish someone would publish an "Annotated Eddie Joseph". bosco 


I would also include John Mendoza's routine(s) for the combo cups (3 cup set). Julie 


Wow that is a lot of input. Thanks everyone. 


More updates on the list ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Caps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 


May I know how many cups these greats uses in their routines? John Ramsay Johnny Paul Alex Elmsley Jim Ryan Laurie Ireland Charles Burton Ken Brooke Joe Berg Milton Kort Rafael Benatar Burtini John Platt Manuel Muerte Tom Mullica Dan Fleshman Eddie Joseph 


Johnny paul 3 cups rafael benatar 3 cups 


I have a 2 cup routine. Elmsley, Fleshman, Brooke, Johnny Paul are 3 cups. 


Thanks, walid ahumada and Scott F. Guinn for your input. More updates ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Caps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 32) Johnny Paul  3 cups 33) Rafael Benatar  3 cups 34) Alex Emsley  3 cups 35) Dan Fleshman  3 cups 36) Ken Brooke  3 cups 37) Scott F. Guinn  2 cups 


How about ... John Ramsay Jim Ryan Laurie Ireland Charles Burton Joe Berg Milton Kort Burtini John Platt Manuel Muerte Tom Mullica Eddie Joseph Guyot Ozanam How many cups do they use? 


Penn and Teller 3 Cups 4 hands 


Laurie Ireland  3 cups Joe Berg  3 cups Kort  2 cups and 3 cups routines Platt  3 cups and indian cups Muerte  3 cups Mullica  3 cup routine Guyot  3 cups Flicking Fingers  2 cups John Ramsey  3 cups and 3 Ice Cream Containers Houdini  3 cups 


Thanks, Payne and Mobius. Your input is greatly appreciated. Here's the updated list again ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Kaps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 32) Johnny Paul  3 cups 33) Rafael Benatar  3 cups 34) Alex Emsley  3 cups 35) Dan Fleshman  3 cups 36) Ken Brooke  3 cups 37) Scott F. Guinn  2 cups 38) John Ramsey  3 cups & 3 Ice cream containers 39) Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands 40) Laurie Ireland  3 cups 41) Joe Berg  3 cups 42) Milton Kort  2 & 3 cups 43) John Platt  3 cups and Indian cups 44) Manuel Muerte  3 cups 45) Tom Mullica  3 cups 46) Guyot  3 cups 47) Flicking Fingers  3 cups 48) Houdini  3 cups 


That leaves ... Jim Ryan Charles Burton Burtini Eddie Joseph Ozanam Any one knows how many cups they used in their routine? A few more names came to my mind ... Tim Ellis Paul Daniels Albert Goshman Lewis Ganson Max Malini Bill Palmer Jonathan Townsend Any other names we can add to the list? How about cups and balls worker from other countries? Any ideas? Thanks for the participation. I believe the list would be very helpful to many people. 


[quote] On 20070607 17:05, JamesTong wrote: That leaves ... Jim Ryan Charles Burton Burtini Eddie Joseph Ozanam Any one knows how many cups they used in their routine? A few more names came to my mind ... Tim Ellis Paul Daniels Albert Goshman Lewis Ganson Max Malini Bill Palmer Jonathan Townsend Any other names we can add to the list? How about cups and balls worker from other countries? Any ideas? Thanks for the participation. I believe the list would be very helpful to many people. [/quote] Jim Ryan  three cups Charles Bertram  three cups Burtini  three cups Eddie Joseph  three cups (usually) Ozanam  three cups Tim Ellis  two cups and a juke box Paul Daniels  one cup Albert Goshman  don't know Lewis Ganson  probably three cups Max Malini  three cups Bill Palmer  one cup (most of the time) Jonathan Townsend  ? 


[quote] On 20070607 16:58, JamesTong wrote: 48) Houdini  3 cups [/quote] Any supporting info on this entry? As a man working on a similar goal any info would be appreciated. todd 


Abraham Bongers also had a three cup routine. Manuel Muerte  one cup. 


James Sorry, I was a bit slow replying to my suggestions  but it looks like the guys have filled in all the gaps. There's an error in #38: John Ramsay's famous routine was with just 2 ice cream cups. He also published a onecup routine using an 'Indian' cup. A few more: Gary Kurtz  3 cups John Bannon  3 cups Steve Draun  3 cups Ed Marlo  3 cups 


We should add Andy Comic...very entertaining routine with elements of both twoball and threeball handling. Best regards, Glenn Godsey 


Does the 3 cup routine published in Mark Wilson's book count? I see Jos Berna's Solid Can routine is listed; in this case, let's also include the similar solid can routines published by Paul Harris and Michael Ammar. I believe Jay Sankey also had a C&B routine published in Sankey Pankey; haven't read it so don't know how many cups it involved, sorry. Peter Wardell teaches a street cups routine  with, of course, similarity to Gazzo's, on DVD. David Regal also has a one cup routine in print. Cheers. 


That's Bema, not Berma. Jos Bema is Jos Bemelman, AKA Tommy Wonder. It would be good to track down who originated the solid can routine, because they are all actually fairly similar, except for Lonnie Chevrie's, in which the ball used ends up inside the can. 


*sorry about that, Bill. Knew it was TW's name, but didn't know it was short for Bemelman. Good to know, thanks. I read that the solid can routine was a PH idea, somewhere. Not 100%, though. 


[quote] On 20070607 19:43, ChristopherM wrote: Does the 3 cup routine published in Mark Wilson's book count? [/quote] It should it is a great little routine. the first one I learned. Also, anyone looking to simply (yet accurately) talk about cups history in their routine should read Mr. Wilsons intro to the cups & balls. it is historically accurate and well written. [quote] I believe Jay Sankey also had a C&B routine published in Sankey Pankey; haven't read it so don't know how many cups it involved, sorry. [/quote] this is a 3 cup routine with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale. todd 


Oh About Houdini ...There was a series of letters in the 1920's in which his routine is mentioned. The letters were in the possesion of a friend of mine named Ted Corothers. Ted passed away several years ago and the letters were part of his back room of his shop so when it was taken over It went with the shop. I do not know who is in the possesion of those letters at this time there were about 150 or more hand written letters in a nice binder that Ted was trying to get to some museum before he died. When Ted honored me with showing them to me he knew of my facination with the cups and balls and specificly pointed that part of these letters in the middle of the binder he showed me. Hopefully the letters found a good home and are still intact. Later, Mobius 


You might want to check with Steven Sparks, Kevin Connolly and/or Arthur Moses to see if they know anything about such a book. I would really like to know what Houdini did with the cups and balls. Re: The solid cup routine  I'm not sure which came first, the can or the solid cone that Gary Wolfsberger manufactured. The cone dates back to 1974. Shigeo Tagaki had two different solid cup routines that were marketed by Jeff Busby. 


Me? I've performed the Vernon, Ramsay and Roth cups, papercups and chop cup routines. I have a few sleights but no major routine to claim. 


I too would like to know more about Houdini's work with the cups todd also..Bob Farmer has a nice routine called Cyclops. 3 cups, one ball. 


We've forgotten to include two major names: Ross Bertram  3 cups J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat (routine reprinted by Karl Fulves in '69) 


Two more whose routines I have seen in person and enjoyed... Eric DeCamps...3 cups John George...3 cups 


Mark Wilson's ... 3 Cups 


[quote] On 20070607 23:22, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Me? I've performed the Vernon, Ramsay and Roth cups, papercups and chop cup routines. I have a few sleights but no major routine to claim. [/quote] Jonathan, does it mean that you are having, basiclly the 1 cup and 3 cups routine? Would like to include you in the list. 


[quote] On 20070607 18:33, lint wrote: [quote] On 20070607 16:58, JamesTong wrote: 48) Houdini  3 cups [/quote] Any supporting info on this entry? As a man working on a similar goal any info would be appreciated. todd [/quote] Todd, entry # 48 on Houdini  3 cups is basically listed down based on inputs from this thread. But I am also looking for supporting documents for all the names listed. Thanks for highlighting. 


[quote] On 20070607 19:08, Richard Evans wrote: James Sorry, I was a bit slow replying to my suggestions  but it looks like the guys have filled in all the gaps. There's an error in #38: John Ramsay's famous routine was with just 2 ice cream cups. He also published a onecup routine using an 'Indian' cup. A few more: Gary Kurtz  3 cups John Bannon  3 cups Steve Draun  3 cups Ed Marlo  3 cups [/quote] Richard, thanks for highlighting entry # 38  will ammend on the latest updates. And thanks for the inputs too. 


Latest and ammended updated list ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Kaps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 32) Johnny Paul  3 cups 33) Rafael Benatar  3 cups 34) Alex Emsley  3 cups 35) Dan Fleshman  3 cups 36) Ken Brooke  3 cups 37) Scott F. Guinn  2 cups 38) John Ramsey  2 Ice cream containers (ammended) 39) Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands 40) Laurie Ireland  3 cups 41) Joe Berg  3 cups 42) Milton Kort  2 & 3 cups 43) John Platt  3 cups and Indian cups 44) Manuel Muerte  3 cups 45) Tom Mullica  3 cups 46) Guyot  3 cups 47) Flicking Fingers  3 cups 48) Houdini  3 cups 49) Mark Wilson  3 Cups 50) Eric DeCamps  3 cups 51) John George  3 cups 52) Ross Bertram  3 cups 53) J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat 54) Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball 55) Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale 56) Andy Comic  3 cups 57) Gary Kurtz  3 cups 58) John Bannon  3 cups 59) Steve Draun  3 cups 60) Ed Marlo  3 cups 61) Abraham Bongers  3 cups 62) Manuel Muerte  1 cup 63) Jim Ryan  3 cups 64) Charles Bertram  3 cups 65) Burtini  3 cups 66) Eddie Joseph  3 cups (usually) 67) Ozanam  3 cups 68) Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box 69) Paul Daniels  1 cup 70) Lewis Ganson  3 cups 71) Max Malini  3 cups 72) Bill Palmer  1 cup (most of the time) 


How long do you think this list would go? Any more inputs? Thanks everyone for this exciting participation. I find it really beneficial. 


Just a couple of pieces of information. The Paul Harris routine with the can was, indeed, based upon the solid cone, which is credited to Lawrence Steinmeyer in Paul's book. However, it was Wolfsberger who marketed and promoted it. I am not sure who did what with the solid cone. 


Bill, which Paul Harris book is this routine in? 


It's in [i]Las Vegas Close Up[/i] and [i]Art of Astonishment 1[/i]. It is called "Uncanny." Here are a couple of other names to add to the list RobertHoudin  3 cup routine Professor Hoffmann  3 cup routine 


James, I learned the Vernon routine with three cups, Ramsay's using two, Roth's chop cup routine from his lecture and also something with an egg cup which is Geoff Latta's and unpublished as far as I know. I'd like to learn what Hofzinser was doing and when I can get the props also work on something with a bowl and some small stones. But through all that I can only claim to have invented a few sleights which found places in those routines, and so have nothing to claim as my own as far as routines go. So I don't need to be on your list at all. (for now) :) 


I don't believe Jack Bateman's 3 cup "RubADubDub" routine has been mentioned yet on this thread. Terry 


There's an Ian Adair routine using flower pots and "seeds" in one of his books. 


The Hofzinser routine is in Dick Hatch's translation, as well as in a Karl Fulves publication. 


Dick Williams has a 3 cup routine with an audience member for stage. 


[quote] On 20070608 21:15, Bill Palmer wrote: It's in [i]Las Vegas Close Up[/i] and [i]Art of Astonishment 1[/i]. It is called "Uncanny." [/quote] Thanks, Bill. I'll get those books. 


[quote] On 20070608 23:39, Jonathan Townsend wrote: James, I learned the Vernon routine with three cups, Ramsay's using two, Roth's chop cup routine from his lecture and also something with an egg cup which is Geoff Latta's and unpublished as far as I know. I'd like to learn what Hofzinser was doing and when I can get the props also work on something with a bowl and some small stones. But through all that I can only claim to have invented a few sleights which found places in those routines, and so have nothing to claim as my own as far as routines go. So I don't need to be on your list at all. (for now) :) [/quote] Jonathan, the purpose of this list is to honor, respect and appreciate ALL (and that includes you) cups and balls workers/lovers. Your knowledge, love and dedication to the art of cups and balls deserve a place in this current work. It is an honor to have you in the list. I'll contact you personally for more info on your work. This list is only the beginning. I will be working on the materials with supporting documents and interviews and have them published on my website/book later on. I will be contacting more members in this forum soon on their work in cups and balls, and have their name in this list. 


[quote] On 20070609 00:42, Jonathan Townsend wrote: There's an Ian Adair routine using flower pots and "seeds" in one of his books. [/quote] Jonathan, how many flower pots does Ian Adair uses for his routine? Which book is this routine in? I would like to get my hands on that book too. Thanks for the input. 


More updates on the list ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Kaps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 32) Johnny Paul  3 cups 33) Rafael Benatar  3 cups 34) Alex Emsley  3 cups 35) Dan Fleshman  3 cups 36) Ken Brooke  3 cups 37) Scott F. Guinn  2 cups 38) John Ramsey  2 Ice cream containers (ammended) 39) Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands 40) Laurie Ireland  3 cups 41) Joe Berg  3 cups 42) Milton Kort  2 & 3 cups 43) John Platt  3 cups and Indian cups 44) Manuel Muerte  3 cups 45) Tom Mullica  3 cups 46) Guyot  3 cups 47) Flicking Fingers  3 cups 48) Houdini  3 cups 49) Mark Wilson  3 Cups 50) Eric DeCamps  3 cups 51) John George  3 cups 52) Ross Bertram  3 cups 53) J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat 54) Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball 55) Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale 56) Andy Comic  3 cups 57) Gary Kurtz  3 cups 58) John Bannon  3 cups 59) Steve Draun  3 cups 60) Ed Marlo  3 cups 61) Abraham Bongers  3 cups 62) Manuel Muerte  1 cup 63) Jim Ryan  3 cups 64) Charles Bertram  3 cups 65) Burtini  3 cups 66) Eddie Joseph  3 cups (usually) 67) Ozanam  3 cups 68) Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box 69) Paul Daniels  1 cup 70) Lewis Ganson  3 cups 71) Max Malini  3 cups 72) Bill Palmer  1 cup (most of the time) 73) RobertHoudin  3 cups 74) Professor Hoffmann  3 cups 75) Jack Bateman  3 cup  "RubADubDub" routine 76) Ian Adair  flower pots and "seeds" routine 77) Dick Williams  3 cups (with an audience member for stage) 


I remember hearing that Shawn Farquhar has a 3 cup routine, with solidcups ending. James  David Regal put a one cup routine in print, too. Enjoying seeing the list take shape :) 


I've seen Shawn's routine. It's a real fooler. It is not in print. 


[quote] On 20070609 10:32, ChristopherM wrote: I remember hearing that Shawn Farquhar has a 3 cup routine, with solidcups ending. James  David Regal put a one cup routine in print, too. Enjoying seeing the list take shape :) [/quote] Christopher, thanks for the input. I will add David Regal's 1 cup routine to the list as well as Shawn Farquhar. 


More updates on the list ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups and 1 cup routine 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Kaps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 32) Johnny Paul  3 cups 33) Rafael Benatar  3 cups 34) Alex Emsley  3 cups 35) Dan Fleshman  3 cups 36) Ken Brooke  3 cups 37) Scott F. Guinn  2 cups 38) John Ramsey  2 Ice cream containers (ammended) 39) Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands 40) Laurie Ireland  3 cups 41) Joe Berg  3 cups 42) Milton Kort  2 & 3 cups 43) John Platt  3 cups and Indian cups 44) Manuel Muerte  3 cups 45) Tom Mullica  3 cups 46) Guyot  3 cups 47) Flicking Fingers  3 cups 48) Houdini  3 cups 49) Mark Wilson  3 Cups 50) Eric DeCamps  3 cups 51) John George  3 cups 52) Ross Bertram  3 cups 53) J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat 54) Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball 55) Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale 56) Andy Comic  3 cups 57) Gary Kurtz  3 cups 58) John Bannon  3 cups 59) Steve Draun  3 cups 60) Ed Marlo  3 cups 61) Abraham Bongers  3 cups 62) Manuel Muerte  1 cup 63) Jim Ryan  3 cups 64) Charles Bertram  3 cups 65) Burtini  3 cups 66) Eddie Joseph  3 cups (usually) 67) Ozanam  3 cups 68) Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box 69) Paul Daniels  1 cup 70) Lewis Ganson  3 cups 71) Max Malini  3 cups 72) Bill Palmer  1 cup (most of the time) 73) RobertHoudin  3 cups 74) Professor Hoffmann  3 cups 75) Jack Bateman  3 cup  "RubADubDub" routine 76) Ian Adair  flower pots and "seeds" routine 77) Dick Williams  3 cups (with an audience member for stage) 78) Shawn Farquhar  3 cups with solidcups ending 


I'm working on a seven cups routine. 


I did a twelve cup routine for our magic club one evening. I had twelve final loads  the whole bit. They didn't know it was a routine until it was over. 


How could we forget the late great Bob Read's Penultimate Cups & Balls Routine. AND.... Henri Decremps' routine Edwin Sachs' routine Bosco's routine (as described by RobertHoudin/Hoffman) Conus' routine (ditto) Jean Hugard's routine Ellis Stanyon's routines Dr. Daly's cups & balls routine O.W. Meyer's routine Hans Trixer's routine Jim Merlini's routine Edward Browne's routine Indian Cups & Balls routine by Rinkhausen The Cups & Cubes by Ron Jamison Bill Tarr's Cups & Balls routine Tom Osborne (numerous routines). Hope this helps, James. I can give you the bibliographical references for the routines listed above if you need them. Fortasse 


How about Ricky Jay's routine? Or is his one of another person's whose name is already on the list? 


There is Kurt Ehrler's routine  3 cups (combo cup routine) There are several routines by Bruno Hennig (Joro). There is one three cup routine, a one cup routine and a routine with a bell. 


[quote] On 20070609 23:05, fortasse wrote: How could we forget the late great Bob Read's Penultimate Cups & Balls Routine. AND.... Henri Decremps' routine Edwin Sachs' routine Bosco's routine (as described by RobertHoudin/Hoffman) Conus' routine (ditto) Jean Hugard's routine Ellis Stanyon's routines Dr. Daly's cups & balls routine O.W. Meyer's routine Hans Trixer's routine Jim Merlini's routine Edward Browne's routine Indian Cups & Balls routine by Rinkhausen The Cups & Cubes by Ron Jamison Bill Tarr's Cups & Balls routine Tom Osborne (numerous routines). Hope this helps, James. I can give you the bibliographical references for the routines listed above if you need them. Fortasse [/quote] Just PMed you, Fortasse. By the way how many cups are used in the routines above? 


[quote] On 20070609 23:27, Tablic wrote: How about Ricky Jay's routine? Or is his one of another person's whose name is already on the list? [/quote] Thanks, Tablic for your input. May I know how many cups did Ricky Jay use for his routine? 


[quote] On 20070609 20:21, Bill Palmer wrote: I did a twelve cup routine for our magic club one evening. I had twelve final loads  the whole bit. They didn't know it was a routine until it was over. [/quote] Bill, are you still doing the 12 cups routine now? Which cups did you use, among the hundreds you have, for this 12 cups routine? Are you using one cup each from each set in your collection? Just curious :) 


I did this routine about 3 years ago for IBM Ring 39. I used four sets of mini cups, the Riser cups, the Van Dokkum cups, the Ravel mini cups and the Ickle Pickle mini cups which looked like the Ravel cups. I had a closeup mat that was made from automobile headliner material  about 36 inches by 24 inches. The club thought it was just a demonstration of the different styles of mini cups, so it made my task easier. I started with each set in its drawstring bag, with a setup like you find in Alex Elmsley's book for the salt load, so I was working one ahead. I had the various load balls in each of my jacket pockets, so I could get to them in the natural handling of the cups, etc. I demonstrated one set, and the size of load it took, then moved it to the front right corner of the mat, all three cups mouth down, and put a load ball on top of the center cup. I did the same thing with the second set, but put it at the front left corner of the mat. The third set went to the right rear corner of the mat, and the last set went to the left rear corner of the mat. Then I said, "Remember, this set will work with handballs (and revealed that there were three handballs under that set), this set works with golf balls (revealing the golf balls), this set with miniature tennis balls (revealing those), and this set with smaller tennis balls (revealing those)." Due to the nature of the routine, I had ample time to get loads and put them into the cups. The final display had four sets of mini cups across the front edge of the mat. Eric Falconer mentions it here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=94452&forum=115&post=3904092 


Going through my collection tonight I came across the following which I don't believe have been mentioned. Senor Mardo  1 cup, 2 cups and 3 cups Jimmy Lake  3 cups Richard Kaufman  3 cups Randy Wakeman  3 cups Hal Levy  3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls Nick Trost  3 cups Irv Weiner  3 cups S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey)  3 cups Let me call your attention to a typo: Correct spelling is "John Ramsay". Terry 


Henry Holava did a three cup routine with square sponges. 


Speaking of C&B routines, are there any good silent (i/e. nonpatter)routines? Fortasse 


Dominique Duvivier performs his to music. He also has some great misdirection built into his presentation. Hmm, I don't see his name on the list. 3 cups, two people, 3 ball finale with fourth cup production 


There was a fellow at the Let's Go Magic convention in Berlin in 1992 who performed as an automaton, using very large cups  probably flowerpots  all in white. It was elegant. I'll see if I can find out who he was. 


Pablo Minguet  3 cups. 


[quote] On 20070610 22:30, Terry Holley wrote: Going through my collection tonight I came across the following which I don't believe have been mentioned. Senor Mardo  1 cup, 2 cups and 3 cups Jimmy Lake  3 cups Richard Kaufman  3 cups Randy Wakeman  3 cups Hal Levy  3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls Nick Trost  3 cups Irv Weiner  3 cups S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey)  3 cups Let me call your attention to a typo: Correct spelling is "John Ramsay". Terry [/quote] Thanks, Terry, the names are added to the list. And "John Ramsay" has also been ammended in the list. Thanks for pointing it out. James Tong 


[quote] On 20070611 00:32, Dave VanVranken wrote: Dominique Duvivier performs his to music. He also has some great misdirection built into his presentation. Hmm, I don't see his name on the list. 3 cups, two people, 3 ball finale with fourth cup production [/quote] Thanks, Dave, Dominique Duvivier will be added to the list. 


Latest updates to the list ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups and 1 cup routine 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Kaps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 32) Johnny Paul  3 cups 33) Rafael Benatar  3 cups 34) Alex Emsley  3 cups 35) Dan Fleshman  3 cups 36) Ken Brooke  3 cups 37) Scott F. Guinn  2 cups 38) John Ramsay  2 Ice cream containers (ammended) 39) Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands 40) Laurie Ireland  3 cups 41) Joe Berg  3 cups 42) Milton Kort  2 & 3 cups 43) John Platt  3 cups and Indian cups 44) Manuel Muerte  3 cups 45) Tom Mullica  3 cups 46) Guyot  3 cups 47) Flicking Fingers  3 cups 48) Houdini  3 cups 49) Mark Wilson  3 Cups 50) Eric DeCamps  3 cups 51) John George  3 cups 52) Ross Bertram  3 cups 53) J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat 54) Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball 55) Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale 56) Andy Comic  3 cups 57) Gary Kurtz  3 cups 58) John Bannon  3 cups 59) Steve Draun  3 cups 60) Ed Marlo  3 cups 61) Abraham Bongers  3 cups 62) Manuel Muerte  1 cup 63) Jim Ryan  3 cups 64) Charles Bertram  3 cups 65) Burtini  3 cups 66) Eddie Joseph  3 cups (usually) 67) Ozanam  3 cups 68) Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box 69) Paul Daniels  1 cup 70) Lewis Ganson  3 cups 71) Max Malini  3 cups 72) Bill Palmer  1 cup (most of the time) and also 12 cups routine 73) RobertHoudin  3 cups 74) Professor Hoffmann  3 cups 75) Jack Bateman  3 cup  "RubADubDub" routine 76) Ian Adair  flower pots and "seeds" routine 77) Dick Williams  3 cups (with an audience member for stage) 78) Shawn Farquhar  3 cups with solidcups ending 79) Kurt Ehrler  3 cups (combo cup routine) 80) Bruno Hennig (Joro)  3 cups, 1 cup and a routine with a bell 81) Ricky Jay  3 cups 82) Senor Mardo  1 cup, 2 cups and 3 cups 83) Jimmy Lake  3 cups 84) Richard Kaufman  3 cups 85) Randy Wakeman  3 cups 86) Hal Levy  3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls 87) Nick Trost  3 cups 88) Irv Weiner  3 cups 89) S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey)  3 cups 90) Pablo Minguet  3 cups 91) Dominique Duvivier  3 cups (2 people, 3 balls finale with fourth cup production) 


We have 91 entries to the list now. I really appreciate everyone for helping out. Hope the list is beneficial. May I request one more help ... Which country do these performers come from? That way I can place the country of origin next to their names. Thanks again. 


Just remembered one more: Mark Raffles (UK)  3 cups (with chick loads) 


James : I sent you a list of 15 C&B routines but don't see any of them on the list you posted this afternoon. Same with the 8 routines from Terry. ? Fortasse 


James, 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups (He has a 1 cup & 3 balls routine as well) 44) Manuel Muerte  3 cups (I'm not sure whether he has a 3 cups routine or not but he has a 2 cups routine in his "Done By Misdirection" DVD) 47) Flicking Fingers  3 cups (There's another guy who use 2 cups in this DVD) 92) Carl Coultier's  1 cup (World Class Magic) 93) Peter Wardell  3 cups & a hat (Crowdpuller) 94) Alexander De Cova  3 cups 95) Glenn Bishop  3 cups 96) 


That's Cloutier, not Coultier. Peter Wardell's routine is basically Gazzo's Manuel Muerte's routine is a two cup routine. 


Johnny Ace Palmer (USA)  3 cups, with live chicks as final loads Wow, what a great list this is becoming! :) 


That's an excellent routine. I gave Johhny a line to use with it. He offered to pay me for it, but I turned down the payment. I wanted to give it to him. He's a friend. And a heck of a nice guy, as well as a really great performer. 


[quote] On 20070611 20:59, fortasse wrote: James : I sent you a list of 15 C&B routines but don't see any of them on the list you posted this afternoon. Same with the 8 routines from Terry. ? Fortasse [/quote] My apologies, Sean. They are now in the list. Thanks. 


[quote] On 20070611 21:22, samuelchong wrote: James, 7) Carl Andrews  2 cups (He has a 1 cup & 3 balls routine as well) 44) Manuel Muerte  3 cups (I'm not sure whether he has a 3 cups routine or not but he has a 2 cups routine in his "Done By Misdirection" DVD) 47) Flicking Fingers  3 cups (There's another guy who use 2 cups in this DVD) 92) Carl Coultier's  1 cup (World Class Magic) 93) Peter Wardell  3 cups & a hat (Crowdpuller) 94) Alexander De Cova  3 cups 95) Glenn Bishop  3 cups 96) [/quote] Thanks, Samuel for the input. They are in the list now. 


Latest updates and ammendments to the list ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  1, 2 and 3 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups and 1 cup routine 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Kaps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 32) Johnny Paul  3 cups 33) Rafael Benatar  3 cups 34) Alex Emsley  3 cups 35) Dan Fleshman  3 cups 36) Ken Brooke  3 cups 37) Scott F. Guinn  2 cups 38) John Ramsay  2 Ice cream containers (ammended) 39) Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands 40) Laurie Ireland  3 cups 41) Joe Berg  3 cups 42) Milton Kort  2 & 3 cups 43) John Platt  3 cups and Indian cups 44) Manuel Muerte  2 cups 45) Tom Mullica  3 cups 46) Guyot  3 cups 47) Flicking Fingers  2 and 3 cups 48) Houdini  3 cups 49) Mark Wilson  3 Cups 50) Eric DeCamps  3 cups 51) John George  3 cups 52) Ross Bertram  3 cups 53) J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat 54) Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball 55) Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale 56) Andy Comic  3 cups 57) Gary Kurtz  3 cups 58) John Bannon  3 cups 59) Steve Draun  3 cups 60) Ed Marlo  3 cups 61) Abraham Bongers  3 cups 62) Manuel Muerte  1 cup 63) Jim Ryan  3 cups 64) Charles Bertram  3 cups 65) Burtini  3 cups 66) Eddie Joseph  3 cups (usually) 67) Ozanam  3 cups 68) Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box 69) Paul Daniels  1 cup 70) Lewis Ganson  3 cups 71) Max Malini  3 cups 72) Bill Palmer  1 cup (most of the time) and also 12 cups routine 73) RobertHoudin  3 cups 74) Professor Hoffmann  3 cups 75) Jack Bateman  3 cup  "RubADubDub" routine 76) Ian Adair  flower pots and "seeds" routine 77) Dick Williams  3 cups (with an audience member for stage) 78) Shawn Farquhar  3 cups with solidcups ending 79) Kurt Ehrler  3 cups (combo cup routine) 80) Bruno Hennig (Joro)  3 cups, 1 cup and a routine with a bell 81) Ricky Jay  3 cups 82) Senor Mardo  1 cup, 2 cups and 3 cups 83) Jimmy Lake  3 cups 84) Richard Kaufman  3 cups 85) Randy Wakeman  3 cups 86) Hal Levy  3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls 87) Nick Trost  3 cups 88) Irv Weiner  3 cups 89) S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey)  3 cups 90) Pablo Minguet  3 cups 91) Dominique Duvivier  3 cups (2 people, 3 balls finale with fourth cup production) 92) Johnny Ace Palmer (USA)  3 cups (live chicks as final loads) 93) Carl Cloutier  1 cup 94) Peter Wardell  3 cups & a hat 95) Mark Raffles (UK)  3 cups (with chick final loads) 96) Alexander De Cova  3 cups 97) Glenn Bishop  3 cups 98) Henry Holava  3 cups (with square sponges) 99) Henri Decremps  3 cup 100) Edwin Sachs  3 cups 101) Bosco  3 cups 102) Conus  3 cups 103) Jean Hugard  3 cups 104) Ellis Stanyon  3 cups 105) Dr. Daly  3 cups 106) O.W. Meyer  3 cups 107) Hans Trixer  3 cups 108) Jim Merlini  3 cups 109) Edward Browne  3 cups 110) Rinkhausen  3 cups (Indian Cups and Balls) 111) Ron Jamison  3 cups 112) Bill Tarr  3 cups 113) Tom Osborne  3 cups 


Thanks everyone for taking the time to add to the list. We have 113 entries now. 


Senator Crandall  1 cup. 


>> That's Cloutier, not Coultier. Sorry for the typing error. 


With so many routines having now been listed (although some of them are identical twins), it would be interesting to learn which are the personal favourites of Café members. Speaking for myself, I'd have to say that the standard Dai Vernon routine (as explained by Ganson in The Dai Vernon Book of Magic)is still tops for me. I rather suspect, though, that most of us have developed preferred routines based on a combination of different routines....a littlebitofthisandalittlebitofthat. Fortasse 


What would also be interesting (re James Tong's list) would be identify how many BALLS are used in these routines. Most routines use (you know how many) balls but there are some like Aldo Columbini's classic routine (as described in Lewis Ganson's "Columbini's Cups And Balls") that use five. Another routine of particular interest along these lines is John Ramsay's classic two cup routine (as described by Victor Farelli in "John Ramsay's Routine With Cups And Balls" (1948) and more recently by Andrew Galloway on DVD)in which the standard (you know how many) balls are used although the audience is only ever aware of TWO of them. Fortasse 


For a long time, my favorite routine was the Vernon routine, and it is still one of my favorites. Like the Don Alan chop cup routine, it is the template that most of us have used to construct a routine. However, I have recently become attracted to the Rafael Benatar routine. It's not as long as the Vernon routine, but it leaves out a lot of the things that may not be necessary any more. It's reasonably short and to the point, yet it has some remarkable technical aspects. There is a bit of Vernonism in it, but it is definitely Rafael's. 


How far do we go in describing the routines before we start exposing things? Would it be fair to the inventors if we tipped that they used five balls and a combo set for what looks to the world like a 3 ball routine? 


[quote] However, I have recently become attracted to the Rafael Benatar routine. It's not as long as the Vernon routine, but it leaves out a lot of the things that may not be necessary any more. It's reasonably short and to the point, yet it has some remarkable technical aspects. There is a bit of Vernonism in it, but it is definitely Rafael's. [/quote] Yep, I agree with Bill. Ferenc Galambos uses his routine as well, you can find it in UGM VII (2004). 


Dave : on reflection, I think you may be right. Probably not a good idea after all. Fortasse 


Would it be alright if we have a private list on it? If it is, then I can work on it privately. Just my thoughts. If not I will also agree that we should not expose the inventors' work. 


[quote] On 20070612 21:58, fortasse wrote: What would also be interesting (re James Tong's list) would be identify how many BALLS are used in these routines. Most routines use (you know how many) balls but there are some like Aldo Columbini's classic routine (as described in Lewis Ganson's "Columbini's Cups And Balls") that use five. Another routine of particular interest along these lines is John Ramsay's classic two cup routine (as described by Victor Farelli in "John Ramsay's Routine With Cups And Balls" (1948) and more recently by Andrew Galloway on DVD)in which the standard (you know how many) balls are used although the audience is only ever aware of TWO of them. Fortasse [/quote] Sean, my work on this list do not just end here. I will be researching on the following to include on the list. 1) Name of performer 2) Country of origin 3) How many cups used 4) Which cup used 5) How many routines 6) How many balls used 7) What kind of balls used 8) What are their finale or final loads 9) Reference materials on their work I would also contact them personally, if I can to interview them as well as to get permission to do a write up on their work (if they permit). I hope I can get my hands, with permission from them, various photographs of each of them performing the routines. It is a humongous task. Hope I would succeed. This work does not expose the mechanics or technical aspects of their work but more on a reference material for serious cups and balls workers/lovers. At least we all know who did what and where they are from and their work is also recognised and appreciated. I really appreciate the support I am getting from this forum. Thanks everyone for your kind support. 


Two more addition to the list ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  1, 2 and 3 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups and 1 cup routine 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Kaps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 32) Johnny Paul  3 cups 33) Rafael Benatar  3 cups 34) Alex Emsley  3 cups 35) Dan Fleshman  3 cups 36) Ken Brooke  3 cups 37) Scott F. Guinn  2 cups 38) John Ramsay  2 Ice cream containers (ammended) 39) Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands 40) Laurie Ireland  3 cups 41) Joe Berg  3 cups 42) Milton Kort  2 & 3 cups 43) John Platt  3 cups and Indian cups 44) Manuel Muerte  2 cups 45) Tom Mullica  3 cups 46) Guyot  3 cups 47) Flicking Fingers  2 and 3 cups 48) Houdini  3 cups 49) Mark Wilson  3 Cups 50) Eric DeCamps  3 cups 51) John George  3 cups 52) Ross Bertram  3 cups 53) J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat 54) Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball 55) Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale 56) Andy Comic  3 cups 57) Gary Kurtz  3 cups 58) John Bannon  3 cups 59) Steve Draun  3 cups 60) Ed Marlo  3 cups 61) Abraham Bongers  3 cups 62) Manuel Muerte  1 cup 63) Jim Ryan  3 cups 64) Charles Bertram  3 cups 65) Burtini  3 cups 66) Eddie Joseph  3 cups (usually) 67) Ozanam  3 cups 68) Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box 69) Paul Daniels  1 cup 70) Lewis Ganson  3 cups 71) Max Malini  3 cups 72) Bill Palmer  1 cup (most of the time) and also 12 cups routine 73) RobertHoudin  3 cups 74) Professor Hoffmann  3 cups 75) Jack Bateman  3 cup  "RubADubDub" routine 76) Ian Adair  flower pots and "seeds" routine 77) Dick Williams  3 cups (with an audience member for stage) 78) Shawn Farquhar  3 cups with solidcups ending 79) Kurt Ehrler  3 cups (combo cup routine) 80) Bruno Hennig (Joro)  3 cups, 1 cup and a routine with a bell 81) Ricky Jay  3 cups 82) Senor Mardo  1 cup, 2 cups and 3 cups 83) Jimmy Lake  3 cups 84) Richard Kaufman  3 cups 85) Randy Wakeman  3 cups 86) Hal Levy  3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls 87) Nick Trost  3 cups 88) Irv Weiner  3 cups 89) S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey)  3 cups 90) Pablo Minguet  3 cups 91) Dominique Duvivier  3 cups (2 people, 3 balls finale with fourth cup production) 92) Johnny Ace Palmer (USA)  3 cups (live chicks as final loads) 93) Carl Cloutier  1 cup 94) Peter Wardell  3 cups & a hat 95) Mark Raffles (UK)  3 cups (with chick final loads) 96) Alexander De Cova  3 cups 97) Glenn Bishop  3 cups 98) Henry Holava  3 cups (with square sponges) 99) Henri Decremps  3 cup 100) Edwin Sachs  3 cups 101) Bosco  3 cups 102) Conus  3 cups 103) Jean Hugard  3 cups 104) Ellis Stanyon  3 cups 105) Dr. Daly  3 cups 106) O.W. Meyer  3 cups 107) Hans Trixer  3 cups 108) Jim Merlini  3 cups 109) Edward Browne  3 cups 110) Rinkhausen  3 cups (Indian Cups and Balls) 111) Ron Jamison  3 cups 112) Bill Tarr  3 cups 113) Tom Osborne  3 cups 114) Senator Crandall  1 cup 115) Ferenc Galambos  3 cups 


I would be reworking on the list soon. I believe placing the names in alphabetical order helps in looking out for the names easier. 


Yeah. lastname first really helps. I recently redid my last in that fashion and it is much easier for research. todd 


Yes, I would do that too. But first I have also to get the full name of these performers and then find out what their last names are. 


Michael Vincent has a great 3 cup routine that fooled me here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MSKFJtaS5k todd 


Those are nice cups. They are the John Mendoza cups made by Tim Star. 


They looked like JP cups to me. How come tim star doesn't advertise his cups? are they all custom jobs? todd 


Michael's routine is lovely; I'm delighted he decided to share it with us online. 


One more name added to the list ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  1, 2 and 3 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups and 1 cup routine 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Kaps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 32) Johnny Paul  3 cups 33) Rafael Benatar  3 cups 34) Alex Emsley  3 cups 35) Dan Fleshman  3 cups 36) Ken Brooke  3 cups 37) Scott F. Guinn  2 cups 38) John Ramsay  2 Ice cream containers (ammended) 39) Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands 40) Laurie Ireland  3 cups 41) Joe Berg  3 cups 42) Milton Kort  2 & 3 cups 43) John Platt  3 cups and Indian cups 44) Manuel Muerte  2 cups 45) Tom Mullica  3 cups 46) Guyot  3 cups 47) Flicking Fingers  2 and 3 cups 48) Houdini  3 cups 49) Mark Wilson  3 Cups 50) Eric DeCamps  3 cups 51) John George  3 cups 52) Ross Bertram  3 cups 53) J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat 54) Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball 55) Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale 56) Andy Comic  3 cups 57) Gary Kurtz  3 cups 58) John Bannon  3 cups 59) Steve Draun  3 cups 60) Ed Marlo  3 cups 61) Abraham Bongers  3 cups 62) Manuel Muerte  1 cup 63) Jim Ryan  3 cups 64) Charles Bertram  3 cups 65) Burtini  3 cups 66) Eddie Joseph  3 cups (usually) 67) Ozanam  3 cups 68) Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box 69) Paul Daniels  1 cup 70) Lewis Ganson  3 cups 71) Max Malini  3 cups 72) Bill Palmer  1 cup (most of the time) and also 12 cups routine 73) RobertHoudin  3 cups 74) Professor Hoffmann  3 cups 75) Jack Bateman  3 cup  "RubADubDub" routine 76) Ian Adair  flower pots and "seeds" routine 77) Dick Williams  3 cups (with an audience member for stage) 78) Shawn Farquhar  3 cups with solidcups ending 79) Kurt Ehrler  3 cups (combo cup routine) 80) Bruno Hennig (Joro)  3 cups, 1 cup and a routine with a bell 81) Ricky Jay  3 cups 82) Senor Mardo  1 cup, 2 cups and 3 cups 83) Jimmy Lake  3 cups 84) Richard Kaufman  3 cups 85) Randy Wakeman  3 cups 86) Hal Levy  3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls 87) Nick Trost  3 cups 88) Irv Weiner  3 cups 89) S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey)  3 cups 90) Pablo Minguet  3 cups 91) Dominique Duvivier  3 cups (2 people, 3 balls finale with fourth cup production) 92) Johnny Ace Palmer (USA)  3 cups (live chicks as final loads) 93) Carl Cloutier  1 cup 94) Peter Wardell  3 cups & a hat 95) Mark Raffles (UK)  3 cups (with chick final loads) 96) Alexander De Cova  3 cups 97) Glenn Bishop  3 cups 98) Henry Holava  3 cups (with square sponges) 99) Henri Decremps  3 cup 100) Edwin Sachs  3 cups 101) Bosco  3 cups 102) Conus  3 cups 103) Jean Hugard  3 cups 104) Ellis Stanyon  3 cups 105) Dr. Daly  3 cups 106) O.W. Meyer  3 cups 107) Hans Trixer  3 cups 108) Jim Merlini  3 cups 109) Edward Browne  3 cups 110) Rinkhausen  3 cups (Indian Cups and Balls) 111) Ron Jamison  3 cups 112) Bill Tarr  3 cups 113) Tom Osborne  3 cups 114) Senator Crandall  1 cup 115) Ferenc Galambos  3 cups 116) Michael Vincent  3 cups 


[quote] On 20070613 17:41, lint wrote: Michael Vincent has a great 3 cup routine that fooled me here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MSKFJtaS5k todd [/quote] That is a very nice routine. Thanks for sharing. 


I don't think this was listed yet. Saw it on eBay. Patrick Page  3 cups Terry 


How about Bob Reads Penultimate cups and balls routine using 3 different cups? 


Latest updates ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  1, 2 and 3 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups and 1 cup routine 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Kaps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 32) Johnny Paul  3 cups 33) Rafael Benatar  3 cups 34) Alex Emsley  3 cups 35) Dan Fleshman  3 cups 36) Ken Brooke  3 cups 37) Scott F. Guinn  2 cups 38) John Ramsay  2 Ice cream containers (ammended) 39) Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands 40) Laurie Ireland  3 cups 41) Joe Berg  3 cups 42) Milton Kort  2 & 3 cups 43) John Platt  3 cups and Indian cups 44) Manuel Muerte  2 cups 45) Tom Mullica  3 cups 46) Guyot  3 cups 47) Flicking Fingers  2 and 3 cups 48) Houdini  3 cups 49) Mark Wilson  3 Cups 50) Eric DeCamps  3 cups 51) John George  3 cups 52) Ross Bertram  3 cups 53) J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat 54) Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball 55) Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale 56) Andy Comic  3 cups 57) Gary Kurtz  3 cups 58) John Bannon  3 cups 59) Steve Draun  3 cups 60) Ed Marlo  3 cups 61) Abraham Bongers  3 cups 62) Manuel Muerte  1 cup 63) Jim Ryan  3 cups 64) Charles Bertram  3 cups 65) Burtini  3 cups 66) Eddie Joseph  3 cups (usually) 67) Ozanam  3 cups 68) Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box 69) Paul Daniels  1 cup 70) Lewis Ganson  3 cups 71) Max Malini  3 cups 72) Bill Palmer  1 cup (most of the time) and also 12 cups routine 73) RobertHoudin  3 cups 74) Professor Hoffmann  3 cups 75) Jack Bateman  3 cup  "RubADubDub" routine 76) Ian Adair  flower pots and "seeds" routine 77) Dick Williams  3 cups (with an audience member for stage) 78) Shawn Farquhar  3 cups with solidcups ending 79) Kurt Ehrler  3 cups (combo cup routine) 80) Bruno Hennig (Joro)  3 cups, 1 cup and a routine with a bell 81) Ricky Jay  3 cups 82) Senor Mardo  1 cup, 2 cups and 3 cups 83) Jimmy Lake  3 cups 84) Richard Kaufman  3 cups 85) Randy Wakeman  3 cups 86) Hal Levy  3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls 87) Nick Trost  3 cups 88) Irv Weiner  3 cups 89) S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey)  3 cups 90) Pablo Minguet  3 cups 91) Dominique Duvivier  3 cups (2 people, 3 balls finale with fourth cup production) 92) Johnny Ace Palmer (USA)  3 cups (live chicks as final loads) 93) Carl Cloutier  1 cup 94) Peter Wardell  3 cups & a hat 95) Mark Raffles (UK)  3 cups (with chick final loads) 96) Alexander De Cova  3 cups 97) Glenn Bishop  3 cups 98) Henry Holava  3 cups (with square sponges) 99) Henri Decremps  3 cup 100) Edwin Sachs  3 cups 101) Bosco  3 cups 102) Conus  3 cups 103) Jean Hugard  3 cups 104) Ellis Stanyon  3 cups 105) Dr. Daly  3 cups 106) O.W. Meyer  3 cups 107) Hans Trixer  3 cups 108) Jim Merlini  3 cups 109) Edward Browne  3 cups 110) Rinkhausen  3 cups (Indian Cups and Balls) 111) Ron Jamison  3 cups 112) Bill Tarr  3 cups 113) Tom Osborne  3 cups 114) Senator Crandall  1 cup 115) Ferenc Galambos  3 cups 116) Michael Vincent  3 cups 117) Patrick Page  3 cups 118) Bob Reads  3 different cups (Penultimate cups and balls routine) 


[quote] On 20070614 15:22, Terry Holley wrote: I don't think this was listed yet. Saw it on eBay. Patrick Page  3 cups Terry [/quote] Thanks, Terry, just added it to the latest updated list. 


[quote] On 20070614 15:31, magical expressions wrote: How about Bob Reads Penultimate cups and balls routine using 3 different cups? [/quote] Thanks, magical expression, Bob Read has just been added. 


I'm curious. Do you want original routines? Or a list of people who perform other people's routines? To me minor changes in a vanish doesn't make it "original" but only a variation. I may be mistaken, but I see names on the list who pretty much perform published routines as written with very little changes. As long as you're getting into such detail, maybe a heading for "Routine Inspired by" should be added. Okay, I just saw "Reference Material" listed on a previous page. That should just about cover it. 


Dave, thanks for this pointing out. After I have rework the list in alphabetical order, we will be adding more info, such as performer's country of origin, etc. I will also add an extra heading  "Routine Inspired By" section, so we get to differentiate performers using published routines and those with original routines. Thanks, Dave. 


Bob Sheets 3 cups one doll's head Johnny Fox 3 cups one wine glass Ger Copper 3 cups Tom Franks 3 cups Sonny Holiday 3 cups Jeff Moche 3 cups Steven Tucker 2 cups and steel balls Sawn Greer 3 cups Gary Animal 3 cups and a rubber chickin Kosmo 1 cup because he can't do 3 Eric Evans 3 cups Jerry Sadowitz 3 cups Ricky Dunn 3 cups and live chicks Gordon Bruce 3 cups (plastic) Danny Hustle 3 cups Nick Nickolas 3 cups Andrew Elliot 3 indian cups Jersey Jim 3 cups Roy Walton 3 cups Billy Kidd 3 cups Dr Bruce Elliot 3 cups Cy Enfield 1 cup Bobby Bernard 1 cup Sawn Dante 2 cups Prince of Wales 3 cups Gali Gali 3 cups 2o live chicks Andrew Galloway 2 cups Kirk 3 cups and a bell 


Marianne Heller 3 cups Doug Conn 3 cups Kristle 3 cups 


Thank you very much, Gazzo. You have enlarged the list tremendously. Really appreciate your assistance with the list. 


Latest updates ... 1) Dai Vernon's routine  3 cups 2) Tommy Wonder's routine  2 cups 3) Scotty York's routine  3 cups 4) Michael Ammar's routine  3 cups 5) Aldo Colombini's routine  3 cups 6) Paul Gertner  3 cups 7) Carl Andrews  1, 2 and 3 cups 8) Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat 9) Charlie Miller  3 cups 10) Jason Latimer  3 cups 11) David Williamson  2 cups 12) Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups 13) Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups 14) Gary Ouellet  2 cups 15) Dennis Loomis  3 cups 16) David Regal  6 cups and 1 cup routine 17) Rene lavand  1 cup 18) Frank Garcia  3 cups 19) Dai Vernon  1 cup routine with Dollar Bills 20) Larry Jennings  3 cups and 1 cup routines 21) John Carney  3 cups and 1 cup routine 22) Robert White  3 cups 23) John Mendoza  3 cups routine 24) Charlie Miller  3 cups and Indian Cups and balls 25) Pete Biro  3 cups and 1 cup routine 26) Johnny Thompson  3 cups routine 27) Mike Rogers  3 cup routine 28) Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine 29) Fred Kaps  3 cups 30) Jim Cellini  3 cups 31) John Mendoza  3 cups 32) Johnny Paul  3 cups 33) Rafael Benatar  3 cups 34) Alex Emsley  3 cups 35) Dan Fleshman  3 cups 36) Ken Brooke  3 cups 37) Scott F. Guinn  2 cups 38) John Ramsay  2 Ice cream containers (ammended) 39) Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands 40) Laurie Ireland  3 cups 41) Joe Berg  3 cups 42) Milton Kort  2 & 3 cups 43) John Platt  3 cups and Indian cups 44) Manuel Muerte  2 cups 45) Tom Mullica  3 cups 46) Guyot  3 cups 47) Flicking Fingers  2 and 3 cups 48) Houdini  3 cups 49) Mark Wilson  3 Cups 50) Eric DeCamps  3 cups 51) John George  3 cups 52) Ross Bertram  3 cups 53) J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat 54) Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball 55) Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale 56) Andy Comic  3 cups 57) Gary Kurtz  3 cups 58) John Bannon  3 cups 59) Steve Draun  3 cups 60) Ed Marlo  3 cups 61) Abraham Bongers  3 cups 62) Manuel Muerte  1 cup 63) Jim Ryan  3 cups 64) Charles Bertram  3 cups 65) Burtini  3 cups 66) Eddie Joseph  3 cups (usually) 67) Ozanam  3 cups 68) Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box 69) Paul Daniels  1 cup 70) Lewis Ganson  3 cups 71) Max Malini  3 cups 72) Bill Palmer  1 cup (most of the time) and also 12 cups routine 73) RobertHoudin  3 cups 74) Professor Hoffmann  3 cups 75) Jack Bateman  3 cup  "RubADubDub" routine 76) Ian Adair  flower pots and "seeds" routine 77) Dick Williams  3 cups (with an audience member for stage) 78) Shawn Farquhar  3 cups with solidcups ending 79) Kurt Ehrler  3 cups (combo cup routine) 80) Bruno Hennig (Joro)  3 cups, 1 cup and a routine with a bell 81) Ricky Jay  3 cups 82) Senor Mardo  1 cup, 2 cups and 3 cups 83) Jimmy Lake  3 cups 84) Richard Kaufman  3 cups 85) Randy Wakeman  3 cups 86) Hal Levy  3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls 87) Nick Trost  3 cups 88) Irv Weiner  3 cups 89) S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey)  3 cups 90) Pablo Minguet  3 cups 91) Dominique Duvivier  3 cups (2 people, 3 balls finale with fourth cup production) 92) Johnny Ace Palmer (USA)  3 cups (live chicks as final loads) 93) Carl Cloutier  1 cup 94) Peter Wardell  3 cups & a hat 95) Mark Raffles (UK)  3 cups (with chick final loads) 96) Alexander De Cova  3 cups 97) Glenn Bishop  3 cups 98) Henry Holava  3 cups (with square sponges) 99) Henri Decremps  3 cup 100) Edwin Sachs  3 cups 101) Bosco  3 cups 102) Conus  3 cups 103) Jean Hugard  3 cups 104) Ellis Stanyon  3 cups 105) Dr. Daly  3 cups 106) O.W. Meyer  3 cups 107) Hans Trixer  3 cups 108) Jim Merlini  3 cups 109) Edward Browne  3 cups 110) Rinkhausen  3 cups (Indian Cups and Balls) 111) Ron Jamison  3 cups 112) Bill Tarr  3 cups 113) Tom Osborne  3 cups 114) Senator Crandall  1 cup 115) Ferenc Galambos  3 cups 116) Michael Vincent  3 cups 117) Patrick Page  3 cups 118) Bob Reads  3 different cups (Penultimate cups and balls routine) 119) Bob Sheets  3 cups + one doll's head 120) Johnny Fox  3 cups + one wine glass 121) Ger Cooper  3 cups 122) Tom Franks  3 cups 123) Sonny Holiday  3 cups 124) Jeff Moche  3 cups 125) Steven Tucker  2 cups and steel balls 126) Sawn Greer  3 cups 127) Gary Animal  3 cups and a rubber chickin 128) Kosmo  1 cup 129) Eric Evans  3 cups 130) Jerry Sadowitz  3 cups 131) Ricky Dunn  3 cups and live chicks 132) Gordon Bruce  3 cups (plastic) 133) Danny Hustle  3 cups 134) Nick Nickolas  3 cups 135) Andrew Elliot  3 indian cups 136) Jersey Jim  3 cups 137) Roy Walton  3 cups 138) Billy Kidd  3 cups 139) Dr Bruce Elliot  3 cups 140) Cy Enfield  1 cup 141) Bobby Bernard  1 cup 142) Sawn Dante  2 cups 143) Prince of Wales  3 cups 144) Gali Gali  3 cups + 2 live chicks 145) Andrew Galloway  2 cups 146) Kirk  3 cups and a bell 147) Marianne Heller  3 cups 148) Doug Conn  3 cups 149) Kristle  3 cups 


Mr. Tong fun list you've started I noticed that Dai Vernon's routine heads the list and is probably the most popular routine to study when starting out. However, I wonder how the version from The Dai Vernon book of Magic differs from the "Impromtu Cups and Balls" in Stars of Magic. I sold my 1st edition copy of The Dai Vernon Book of Magic a few years ago because I needed the money. Would anyone care to compare/contrast the two routines? For example the impromtu version uses no wand, while the other version does. Another point I wanted to make I noticed that in order to facilitate a quick and easy summary the performer's name has been mentioned followed by the number of cups used. If you plan on expanding this list in the future (I know it's just a quick and easy fun list for now) it would be interest me to know: 1.) The style/ material of the cups used 2.) Did the performer utilize a wand or not? 3.) What kind of balls were used cork, croquet, sponge balls etc. 4.) What loads were utilized  fruit, tennis balls, other cups etc. Finally If I may suggest the list should be on cups and balls therefore the criterion should include only those routines that use two or more cups, otherwise you are really getting into listing chop cup routines. ( and if so may go well ahead and list benson bowl routines as well) Two entries I'd like to see considered Arthur Trace and David Williamson. I don't have their routines in front of be but both of these gentleman have constructed very off beat creative versions of this classic. (Or am I mistaken was Williamsons a chop cup routine?) Anyway the Trace routines can be found in the Genii issue with him on the cover  The C&B routine introduces rings that appear on top of the cups instead of loads and the routine he does with the bells is essentially a cup and ball routine if you choose to look at it that way 


Duh  I just noticed the Williamson routine was already mentioned (2 cups and a spoon) that settles my dilema. 


Anyone got a copy of the Hofzinser routine? 


Yes. I have it in English (in Richard Hatch's translation) and I have it in German. 


[quote] On 20070620 19:58, cinemagician wrote: Mr. Tong fun list you've started I noticed that Dai Vernon's routine heads the list and is probably the most popular routine to study when starting out. However, I wonder how the version from The Dai Vernon book of Magic differs from the "Impromtu Cups and Balls" in Stars of Magic. I sold my 1st edition copy of The Dai Vernon Book of Magic a few years ago because I needed the money. Would anyone care to compare/contrast the two routines? For example the impromtu version uses no wand, while the other version does. Another point I wanted to make I noticed that in order to facilitate a quick and easy summary the performer's name has been mentioned followed by the number of cups used. If you plan on expanding this list in the future (I know it's just a quick and easy fun list for now) it would be interest me to know: 1.) The style/ material of the cups used 2.) Did the performer utilize a wand or not? 3.) What kind of balls were used cork, croquet, sponge balls etc. 4.) What loads were utilized  fruit, tennis balls, other cups etc. Finally If I may suggest the list should be on cups and balls therefore the criterion should include only those routines that use two or more cups, otherwise you are really getting into listing chop cup routines. ( and if so may go well ahead and list benson bowl routines as well) Two entries I'd like to see considered Arthur Trace and David Williamson. I don't have their routines in front of be but both of these gentleman have constructed very off beat creative versions of this classic. (Or am I mistaken was Williamsons a chop cup routine?) Anyway the Trace routines can be found in the Genii issue with him on the cover  The C&B routine introduces rings that appear on top of the cups instead of loads and the routine he does with the bells is essentially a cup and ball routine if you choose to look at it that way [/quote] Thanks, cinemagician, for your thoughts. I will bear in mind your input in my published version. 


James : When do you think you be able to complete your work? This promises to be a very useful reference work. Fortasse 


The Impromptu Cups and Balls Routine from the [i]Stars of Magic[/i] differs only slightly from the routine in the [i]Dai Vernon Book of Magic.[/i] The differences are that there is no cup through cup bit. There is no wand work. So it boils down to the ball sequences and the final loads, which are basically the same in both routines. The version in the [i]Dai Vernon Book of Magic[/i] goes into a lot more detail about certain parts of the routine. The Ammar version of the wand spin described in both of his books differs from the way Vernon shows it in the [i]Dai Vernon Book of Magic.[/i] Regarding whether James should include chop cup routines or one cup and ball routines in his list: that is up to him. It is his list. I would rather see more things than less included, simply because the information in certain routines may be applicable to all forms of the cups and balls. If he feels like including Benson Bowl routines, that's up to him. We don't get to set the parameters on someone else's work. 


[quote] On 20070620 21:04, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Anyone got a copy of the Hofzinser routine? [/quote] Hofzinser's routine was published by Karl Fulves in The Pallbearer's Review (3rd Folio, Winter 1969). I don't know whether this is the same routine as was published in 'The Magic of Johann Nepomuk Hofzinser'. Bill, do you know if they're the same? 


I don't have that issue; however, unless the translator made the same choices as Richard Hatch, I doubt that they would be identical. 


: ... anyone up for lending me the Hatch book for few couple days? (get it rgith back to you) 


[quote] On 20070624 10:17, fortasse wrote: James : When do you think you be able to complete your work? This promises to be a very useful reference work. Fortasse [/quote] Still working and revising the list, Sean. 


[quote] On 20070624 13:09, Bill Palmer wrote: The Impromptu Cups and Balls Routine from the [i]Stars of Magic[/i] differs only slightly from the routine in the [i]Dai Vernon Book of Magic.[/i] The differences are that there is no cup through cup bit. There is no wand work. So it boils down to the ball sequences and the final loads, which are basically the same in both routines. The version in the [i]Dai Vernon Book of Magic[/i] goes into a lot more detail about certain parts of the routine. The Ammar version of the wand spin described in both of his books differs from the way Vernon shows it in the [i]Dai Vernon Book of Magic.[/i] Regarding whether James should include chop cup routines or one cup and ball routines in his list: that is up to him. It is his list. I would rather see more things than less included, simply because the information in certain routines may be applicable to all forms of the cups and balls. If he feels like including Benson Bowl routines, that's up to him. We don't get to set the parameters on someone else's work. [/quote] Thanks for taking the time to answer my question re Vernon's Routines. I was not trying to "set parameters" on Mr. Tong's work I was just trying to raise the question as to what constitutes a cup and ball routine and what does not. To me any routine wich uses only one cup is a chop cup routine (wheather or not it is gaffed) those routines using two or more cups (to me) are cup and ball routines. I brought up the Trace routine with the bells because it is also worth considering if this is essentially a cup a ball routine. Thanks Mark 


If you are going to consider one cup and ball routines to be the equivalent of chop cup routines, then the consideration should go the other way. One cup and ball routines were around before the chop cup existed. So a chop cup routine is essentially a one cup and ball routine, and not the other way around, to my way of thinking. This would also mean that the one cup routines were also closer to being a bowl routine than I had first felt. Recalling Don Alan's work with the Benson Bowl routine, in his last years, his bowl was deep enough that it would accommodate a large ball bearing, which he then challenged the spectator to remove from the bowl. They couldn't do it, because there was not enough room to get any purchase on the ball. Some of the "new" principles used in the cups and balls were actually introduced as part of one cup routines. For example, the drop move that Eddy Ray seems to think he originated is in the Tarbell book in Crandall's one cup routine. I'll admit there is a problem figuring out what needs to be included and what doesn't. For example, the balls under the hat is essentially a bowl routine. OTOH, Arthur Trace's routine would probably qualify. It's not so much that it's about cups and balls as it is about objects and covers. Even Scot referred to the routine being done with saltcellar covers. 


[quote] On 20070625 17:01, Bill Palmer wrote: If you are going to consider one cup and ball routines to be the equivalent of chop cup routines, then the consideration should go the other way. One cup and ball routines were around before the chop cup existed. So a chop cup routine is essentially a one cup and ball routine, and not the other way around, to my way of thinking. [/quote] O.K. now I see where you are coming from I just didn't think of it that way. I suppose my "map" of magic often begins with a cronilogical consideration of what I experienced as a youth and what I know now. I actulally remember asking a proprietor of a magic shop, "what is a chop cup" when I was I guess 12 years old and saw one displayed in the glass case (I might of thought that since there was only one cup it implied that he'd "chop down" the price. ;) The fact that my familialarity with "cups and balls" predates my first encounter with the chop cup (adams sets/ descriptions in library books)accounts for the reason why I thought of it as I had above. Interesting...but stupid ;) 


Not necessarily stupid. Just different points of view. In all of this neither you nor I are either right or wrong. We just have our own opinions. You explained yours, I explained mine. The one that counts, in the long run, is the viewpoint of the fellow making the list. Granted, there are some things that I consider cups and balls that I did not consider to be so before I did certain bits of research. When I had the first sets of acetabula constructed, I did not realize until I had them in hand that they were more like a shell game or Indian cups than the ones we are accustomed to now. So I include shell games in my collection. Opinions change. When I first started into magic, I absolutely disdained the use of gimmicks. But after seeing some real masters of magic use them the way they were intended, I became more amenable to them. I was a "magiciandriven" performer, rather than an "audiencedriven" performer. 


Yes, where do you draw the line? It's interesting when you say that, "It's not so much that it's about cups and balls as it is about objects and covers". I don't want to get too off topic here, but it seems that reducing what we do to the lowest common denominator can make things clearer to us as performers, and allow us to better select props so that they fit our character and style of performing. A set of Sherwood's might not be for everybody, but I like the idea that every magician could choose to perform his own version of "objects and covers" as a homage to the classic cups and balls. And indeed as the growing list proves many have. 


Where you draw the line depends on how you perceive the trick. I must admit that it was Jonathan Townsend who first pointed out to me that it was about objects and covers. In a way, there is a tenuous relationship between the cups and balls and Matrix, but I doubt that anyone would ever confuse Matrix with the cups and balls. If you are assembling a compilation, maybe the best thing to do is not so much to draw a line as it would be to compartmentalize. In this case, that's up to James. 


New and Updated List ....  CHOP CUP ROUTINES  Aldo Colombini  Chop cup with different color balls Bill Palmer  Merlin Chop Cup Dai Vernon  1 cup with Dollar Bills Dennis Loomis  Micro Chop Cup Don Alan  Chop Cup  1 CUP ROUTINES  Bill Palmer  1 cup Bobby Bernard  1 cup Bruno Hennig (Joro)  1 cup Carl Andrews  1 cup Carl Cloutier  1 cup Cy Enfield  1 cup David Regal  1 cup John Carney  1 cup Kosmo  1 cup Larry Jennings  1 cup Paul Daniels  1 cup Pete Biro  1 cup Rene lavand  1 cup Senator Crandall  1 cup Senor Mardo  1 cup  2 CUPS ROUTINES  Andrew Galloway  2 cups Carl Andrews  2 cups David Williamson  2 cups Flicking Fingers  2 cups Gary Ouellet  2 cups Manuel Muerte  2 cups Milton Kort  2 cups Sawn Dante  2 cups Scott F. Guinn  2 cups Senor Mardo  2 cups Steven Tucker  2 cups and steel balls finale Tommy Wonder  2 cups  3 CUPS ROUTINES  Abraham Bongers  3 cups Aldo Colombini  3 cups Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups Alex Emsley  3 cups Alexander De Cova  3 cups Andy Comic  3 cups Bill Tarr  3 cups Billy Kidd  3 cups Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball Bob Reads  3 different cups (Penultimate cups and balls routine) Bob Sheets  3 cups + one doll's head finale Bosco  3 cups Bruce Elliot  3 cups Bruno Hennig (Joro)  3 cups Burtini  3 cups Carl Andrews  3 cups Charles Bertram  3 cups Charlie Miller  3 cups Conus  3 cups Dai Vernon  3 cups Dan Fleshman  3 cups Dennis Loomis  3 cups Danny Hustle  3 cups Dick Williams  3 cups (with an audience member for stage) Dominique Duvivier  3 cups (2 people, 3 balls finale with fourth cup production) Doug Conn  3 cups Dr. Daly  3 cups Eddie Joseph  3 cups Ed Marlo  3 cups Edward Browne  3 cups Edwin Sachs  3 cups Ellis Stanyon  3 cups Eric DeCamps  3 cups Eric Evans  3 cups Ferenc Galambos  3 cups Flicking Fingers  3 cups Frank Garcia  3 cups Fred Kaps  3 cups Hal Levy  3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls Henri Decremps  3 cup Henry Holava  3 cups (with square sponges Gali Gali  3 cups + 2 live chicks Gary Animal  3 cups and a rubber chicken Gary Kurtz  3 cups Ger Cooper  3 cups Glenn Bishop  3 cups Gordon Bruce  3 cups (plastic) Guyot  3 cups Hans Trixer  3 cups Houdini  3 cups Irv Weiner  3 cups Jack Bateman  3 cups  "RubADubDub" routine Jason Latimer  3 cups Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale Jean Hugard  3 cups Jeff Moche  3 cups Jerry Sadowitz  3 cups Jersey Jim  3 cups Jim Cellini  3 cups Jimmy Lake  3 cups Jim Merlini  3 cups Jim Ryan  3 cups Joe Berg  3 cups John Bannon  3 cups John Carney  3 cups John George  3 cups John Mendoza  3 cups John Platt  3 cups Johnny Ace Palmer (USA)  3 cups (live chicks as final loads) Johnny Fox  3 cups + one wine glass finale Johnny Paul  3 cups Johnny Thompson  3 cups Ken Brooke  3 cups Kristle  3 cups Kurt Ehrler  3 cups (combo cup routine) Larry Jennings  3 cups Laurie Ireland  3 cups Lewis Ganson  3 cups Manuel Muerte  1 cup Marianne Heller  3 cups Mark Raffles (UK)  3 cups (with chick final loads) Mark Wilson  3 Cups Max Malini  3 cups Michael Ammar  3 cups Michael Vincent  3 cups Mike Rogers  3 cups Milton Kort  3 cups Nick Nickolas  3 cups Nick Trost  3 cups O.W. Meyer  3 cups Ozanam  3 cups Pablo Minguet  3 cups Patrick Page  3 cups Paul Gertner  3 cups Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands Pete Biro  3 cups Prince of Wales  3 cups Professor Hoffmann  3 cups Rafael Benatar  3 cups Randy Wakeman  3 cups Richard Kaufman  3 cups Ricky Dunn  3 cups and live chicks finale Ricky Jay  3 cups RobertHoudin  3 cups Robert White  3 cups Ron Jamison  3 cups Ross Bertram  3 cups Roy Walton  3 cups Sawn Greer  3 cups Scotty York  3 cups Senor Mardo  3 cups Shawn Farquhar  3 cups with solidcups ending S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey)  3 cups Sonny Holiday  3 cups Steve Draun  3 cups Tom Franks  3 cups Tom Mullica  3 cups Tom Osborne  3 cups  2 CUPS ROUTINES WITH ANOTHER COVER ITEM  J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box  3 CUPS ROUTINES WITH ANOTHER COVER ITEM  Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat Kirk  3 cups and a bell Peter Wardell  3 cups & a hat  MORE THAN 3 CUPS ROUTINE  Bill Palmer  12 cups David Regal  6 cups  INDIAN CUPS AND BALLS ROUTINE  Andrew Elliot  3 Indian cups Charlie Miller  3 Hindu Style Cups John Platt  3 Indian cups Rinkhausen  3 Indian Cups  BOWL ROUTINES  Roy Benson  Benson Bowl  UNIQUE COVER OBJECTS ROUTINES  Bruno Hennig (Joro)  A routine with a bell Ian Adair  flower pots and "seeds" routine John Ramsay  2 Ice cream containers Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine Lewis Ganson  3 Felt Bags 


I need some assistance on the list ... Based on the inputs I get, some of the performers do not have their full names. Could I have the full name of the performers? And may I also know which is their last names? That way I can work out another version based on last name first. Thanks! 


What about Paul Gertner's routine with the hat and dice? 


Could I have more info on Paul Gertner's routine with the hat and dice? How many dice did he use? What was his finale (final load)? What hat did he use? With this bit of info I can quickly put him into the appropriate place in the list. You would noticed that the list is now categorized. 


The final loads were two large dice. These are available from Kidwell. He used four 1 inch dice, a two inch die and a four inch die. 


Thanks, Bill. Paul Gertner's work will be added to the list in the appropriate section. His name will be added on the next updated list post. 


David Roth has an Innovative routine with Chop cup and different collored balls. Roth routine is written up in one of the New York Magic Symposium books Eric DeCamps also has a chop cup routine and a three cup routine neither of which is in print currently. Johnathon Pendragon has a standard three cup and ball routine He did it impromtu for us at Magifest a long time ago. 


Thanks, Mike (Mobius). Your input will be added to the list on the next update. 


Were Fabian and Burtini the same people? Was his full name Fabian Burtini? This always perplexed me. todd 


We have a couple of names in the list that is not complete. Without the full name of the performers mentioned in the list we will not know the real person, as in the case of Burtini and Fabian. I would really appreciate if some of the names mentioned in the list can be ammended to the full name. I really have no idea what their real names are. Could anyone help me out on this? 


May I have the real names (full names) of the following performers? Guyot  3 cups Kristle  3 cups O.W. Meyer  3 cups Ozanam  3 cups Dr. Daly  3 cups Burtini  3 cups Bosco  3 cups Kosmo  1 cup Thanks for helping out. 


Guy Hollingsworth  3 cups Mike Perlman 3 cups,2 cups and one cup routines I also do a pretty standard Chop cup routine. 


Ozanam's name was Jacques Ozanam Guyot's name was EdmeGilles Guyot O. W. Meyer was Orville W. Meyer Burtini was William Powell Dr. Daly was Jacob Daly, M.D. Bosco was Bartolomeo Bosco Fabian and Burtini were different people. Actually there were three Fabians. The first one was E. Ray Griffiths, who was also the editor of the Journal of the British Magical Society. Aldo Colombini also used the name for a while. And there was also the "singer" Fabian Forte. But I don't think he ever did any magic. 


[quote] On 20070701 02:42, Mobius303 wrote: Guy Hollingsworth  3 cups Mike Perlman 3 cups,2 cups and one cup routines I also do a pretty standard Chop cup routine. [/quote] Thanks, Mike. The names will be added to the list on the next update. 


[quote] On 20070701 03:57, Bill Palmer wrote: Ozanam's name was Jacques Ozanam Guyot's name was EdmeGilles Guyot O. W. Meyer was Orville W. Meyer Burtini was William Powell Dr. Daly was Jacob Daly, M.D. Bosco was Bartolomeo Bosco Fabian and Burtini were different people. Actually there were three Fabians. The first one was E. Ray Griffiths, who was also the editor of the Journal of the British Magical Society. Aldo Colombini also used the name for a while. And there was also the "singer" Fabian Forte. But I don't think he ever did any magic. [/quote] Thanks, Bill. The list will be more updated with the full names of the performers. 


I gave you a bad spelling. Jacob Daly should read Jacob Daley. 


Thanks, Bill. I was just about to post the latest update. Fortunately I came over to see if there are any latest inputs first. 


LATEST UPDATES on the list folks ...  CHOP CUP ROUTINES  Aldo Colombini  Chop cup with different color balls Bill Palmer  Merlin Chop Cup Dai Vernon  1 cup with Dollar Bills David Roth  Chop cup and different collored balls Dennis Loomis  Micro Chop Cup Don Alan  Chop Cup Eric DeCamps  Chop cup Mike Perlman  Chop Cup  1 CUP ROUTINES  Bill Palmer  1 cup Bobby Bernard  1 cup Bruno Hennig (Joro)  1 cup Carl Andrews  1 cup Carl Cloutier  1 cup Cy Enfield  1 cup David Regal  1 cup John Carney  1 cup Kosmo  1 cup Larry Jennings  1 cup Mike Perlman  1 cup Paul Daniels  1 cup Pete Biro  1 cup Rene lavand  1 cup Senator Crandall  1 cup Senor Mardo  1 cup  2 CUPS ROUTINES  Andrew Galloway  2 cups Carl Andrews  2 cups David Williamson  2 cups Flicking Fingers  2 cups Gary Ouellet  2 cups Manuel Muerte  2 cups Mike Perlman  2 cups Milton Kort  2 cups Sawn Dante  2 cups Scott F. Guinn  2 cups Senor Mardo  2 cups Steven Tucker  2 cups and steel balls finale Tommy Wonder  2 cups  3 CUPS ROUTINES  Abraham Bongers  3 cups Aldo Colombini  3 cups Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups Alex Emsley  3 cups Alexander De Cova  3 cups Andy Comic  3 cups Bartolomeo Bosco  3 cups Bill Tarr  3 cups Billy Kidd  3 cups Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball Bob Reads  3 different cups (Penultimate cups and balls routine) Bob Sheets  3 cups + one doll's head finale Bruce Elliot  3 cups Bruno Hennig (Joro)  3 cups William Powell (Burtini)  3 cups Carl Andrews  3 cups Charles Bertram  3 cups Charlie Miller  3 cups Conus  3 cups Dai Vernon  3 cups Dan Fleshman  3 cups Dennis Loomis  3 cups Danny Hustle  3 cups Dick Williams  3 cups (with an audience member for stage) Dominique Duvivier  3 cups (2 people, 3 balls finale with fourth cup production) Doug Conn  3 cups Eddie Joseph  3 cups Ed Marlo  3 cups Edward Browne  3 cups Edwin Sachs  3 cups Ellis Stanyon  3 cups Eric DeCamps  3 cups Eric Evans  3 cups Ferenc Galambos  3 cups Flicking Fingers  3 cups Frank Garcia  3 cups Fred Kaps  3 cups Hal Levy  3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls Henri Decremps  3 cup Henry Holava  3 cups (with square sponges Gali Gali  3 cups + 2 live chicks Gary Animal  3 cups and a rubber chicken Gary Kurtz  3 cups Ger Cooper  3 cups Glenn Bishop  3 cups Gordon Bruce  3 cups (plastic) Guy Hollingsworth  3 cups EdmeGilles Guyot  3 cups Hans Trixer  3 cups Houdini  3 cups Irv Weiner  3 cups Jack Bateman  3 cups  "RubADubDub" routine Jacob Daley, M.D.  3 cups Jason Latimer  3 cups Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale Jean Hugard  3 cups Jeff Moche  3 cups Jerry Sadowitz  3 cups Jersey Jim  3 cups Jim Cellini  3 cups Jimmy Lake  3 cups Jim Merlini  3 cups Jim Ryan  3 cups Joe Berg  3 cups John Bannon  3 cups John Carney  3 cups John George  3 cups John Mendoza  3 cups John Platt  3 cups Johnny Ace Palmer (USA)  3 cups (live chicks as final loads) Johnny Fox  3 cups + one wine glass finale Johnny Paul  3 cups Johnny Thompson  3 cups Jonathon Pendragon  3 cups Ken Brooke  3 cups Kristle  3 cups Kurt Ehrler  3 cups (combo cup routine) Larry Jennings  3 cups Laurie Ireland  3 cups Lewis Ganson  3 cups Manuel Muerte  1 cup Marianne Heller  3 cups Mark Raffles (UK)  3 cups (with chick final loads) Mark Wilson  3 Cups Max Malini  3 cups Michael Ammar  3 cups Michael Vincent  3 cups Mike Perlman  3 cups Mike Rogers  3 cups Milton Kort  3 cups Nick Nickolas  3 cups Nick Trost  3 cups Orville W. Meyer  3 cups Jacques Ozanam  3 cups Pablo Minguet  3 cups Patrick Page  3 cups Paul Gertner  3 cups Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands Pete Biro  3 cups Prince of Wales  3 cups Professor Hoffmann  3 cups Rafael Benatar  3 cups Randy Wakeman  3 cups Richard Kaufman  3 cups Ricky Dunn  3 cups and live chicks finale Ricky Jay  3 cups RobertHoudin  3 cups Robert White  3 cups Ron Jamison  3 cups Ross Bertram  3 cups Roy Walton  3 cups Sawn Greer  3 cups Scotty York  3 cups Senor Mardo  3 cups Shawn Farquhar  3 cups with solidcups ending S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey)  3 cups Sonny Holiday  3 cups Steve Draun  3 cups Tom Franks  3 cups Tom Mullica  3 cups Tom Osborne  3 cups  2 CUPS ROUTINES WITH ANOTHER COVER ITEM  J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box  3 CUPS ROUTINES WITH ANOTHER COVER ITEM  Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat Kirk  3 cups and a bell Peter Wardell  3 cups & a hat  MORE THAN 3 CUPS ROUTINE  Bill Palmer  12 cups David Regal  6 cups  INDIAN CUPS AND BALLS ROUTINE  Andrew Elliot  3 Indian cups Charlie Miller  3 Hindu Style Cups John Platt  3 Indian cups Rinkhausen  3 Indian Cups  BOWL ROUTINES  Roy Benson  Benson Bowl  UNIQUE COVER OBJECTS ROUTINES  Bruno Hennig (Joro)  A routine with a bell Ian Adair  flower pots and "seeds" routine John Ramsay  2 Ice cream containers Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine Lewis Ganson  3 Felt Bags Paul Gertner  hat and dice 


Mad Jake 3 Full Size Trash Cans 3 Human Final Loads 


Thanks, Mad Jake, your name will be in the list on the next update. May I have your full name (real name) to include in the list? Really appreciate the real name. Thanks! Besides the full size trash can, do you also do the chop cup, 1 cup, 2 cups and 3 cups routine? I would like to include your name in the respective categories in the list? 


[quote] On 20070701 14:40, Mad Jake wrote: Mad Jake 3 Full Size Trash Cans 3 Human Final Loads [/quote] Now that I'd love to see. 


Was reading the Paul Rosini book and he mentions several magicians who produced chicks as final loads. Paul Rosini used Brema cups and produced 6 chicks as a final load as well as an alternate ending of a liquid load. The liquid load ending was where he produced three empty shot glasses, covered them witht he cups and the glasses were filled twice. Luxor GaliGali (Mahguob Mohammad Hanafi) produced Chicks used 3 cups John Booth  3 cups and produced chicks Ross Bertram  3 cups and chicks Rosini's cups with the liquid loads were called the Miracle Cups and Balls and were distributed by National Magic Company in 1937. Harry Blackstone Sr. also did a 3 cups routine and produced 4 balls as a climax Ricki Dunn also produces Chicks at the end of his routine. 


Thanks, Mike, I will update the list with your latest input. Really appreciate it. 


Please could I ask if Edward Victor put a routine into print? Bobby Bernard told me to look that one up, but I haven't found it yet. James, thank you for this thread, it's become a fantastic resource. Two minor editing points  David Regal's one cup routine is a Chop Cup routine, and spelling is Guy Hollingworth, no 'S'. Cheers :) 


Look on page 201 of The Magic of Edward Victor's Hands. There is mention of and details in part of his routine with the Cups and Balls. The first three pages of his notewbook were missing so the routine is not copmplete but it is interesting just the same. Ed's cups went to Wil Ayling. Any idea what happened to those cups Bill??? Stewart James also had a Cups and Balls routine and that is detailed in his huge set of books. David Regal has more than one routine that he does. He has a straight and a chopped routine. Later, Mobius 


[quote] On 20070709 19:57, ChristopherM wrote: Please could I ask if Edward Victor put a routine into print? Bobby Bernard told me to look that one up, but I haven't found it yet. James, thank you for this thread, it's become a fantastic resource. Two minor editing points  David Regal's one cup routine is a Chop Cup routine, and spelling is Guy Hollingworth, no 'S'. Cheers :) [/quote] You are welcome, ChristopherM. And thanks for pointing out the errors in the list. The next update will show the ammendments. 


[quote] On 20070707 15:38, Mobius303 wrote: Was reading the Paul Rosini book and he mentions several magicians who produced chicks as final loads. Paul Rosini used Brema cups and produced 6 chicks as a final load as well as an alternate ending of a liquid load. The liquid load ending was where he produced three empty shot glasses, covered them witht he cups and the glasses were filled twice. Luxor GaliGali (Mahguob Mohammad Hanafi) produced Chicks used 3 cups John Booth  3 cups and produced chicks Ross Bertram  3 cups and chicks Rosini's cups with the liquid loads were called the Miracle Cups and Balls and were distributed by National Magic Company in 1937. Harry Blackstone Sr. also did a 3 cups routine and produced 4 balls as a climax Ricki Dunn also produces Chicks at the end of his routine. [/quote] How many cups did Ricki Dunn use? How about Paul Rosini? 


3 cups for both Gentleman. 


Thanks for all the info Mike, much appreciated. 


[quote] On 20070710 16:12, Mobius303 wrote: 3 cups for both Gentleman. [/quote] Thanks, Mike. 


LATEST UPDATES on the list folks ...  CHOP CUP ROUTINES  Aldo Colombini  Chop cup with different color balls Bill Palmer  Merlin Chop Cup Dai Vernon  1 cup with Dollar Bills David Regal  Chop cup David Roth  Chop cup and different collored balls Dennis Loomis  Micro Chop Cup Don Alan  Chop Cup Eric DeCamps  Chop cup Mike Perlman  Chop Cup  1 CUP ROUTINES  Bill Palmer  1 cup Bobby Bernard  1 cup Bruno Hennig (Joro)  1 cup Carl Andrews  1 cup Carl Cloutier  1 cup Cy Enfield  1 cup David Regal  1 cup John Carney  1 cup Kosmo  1 cup Larry Jennings  1 cup Mike Perlman  1 cup Paul Daniels  1 cup Pete Biro  1 cup Rene lavand  1 cup Senator Crandall  1 cup Senor Mardo  1 cup  2 CUPS ROUTINES  Andrew Galloway  2 cups Carl Andrews  2 cups David Williamson  2 cups Flicking Fingers  2 cups Gary Ouellet  2 cups Manuel Muerte  2 cups Mike Perlman  2 cups Milton Kort  2 cups Sawn Dante  2 cups Scott F. Guinn  2 cups Senor Mardo  2 cups Steven Tucker  2 cups and steel balls finale Tommy Wonder  2 cups  3 CUPS ROUTINES  Abraham Bongers  3 cups Aldo Colombini  3 cups Al Schneider's Street Cups  3 cups Al Schneider's Classic Cups  3 cups Alex Emsley  3 cups Alexander De Cova  3 cups Andy Comic  3 cups Bartolomeo Bosco  3 cups Bill Tarr  3 cups Billy Kidd  3 cups Bob Farmer  3 cups and one ball Bob Reads  3 different cups (Penultimate cups and balls routine) Bob Sheets  3 cups + one doll's head finale Bruce Elliot  3 cups Bruno Hennig (Joro)  3 cups William Powell (Burtini)  3 cups Carl Andrews  3 cups Charles Bertram  3 cups Charlie Miller  3 cups Conus  3 cups Dai Vernon  3 cups Dan Fleshman  3 cups Dennis Loomis  3 cups Danny Hustle  3 cups Dick Williams  3 cups (with an audience member for stage) Dominique Duvivier  3 cups (2 people, 3 balls finale with fourth cup production) Doug Conn  3 cups Eddie Joseph  3 cups Ed Marlo  3 cups EdmeGilles Guyot  3 cups Edward Browne  3 cups Edwin Sachs  3 cups Ellis Stanyon  3 cups Eric DeCamps  3 cups Eric Evans  3 cups Ferenc Galambos  3 cups Flicking Fingers  3 cups Frank Garcia  3 cups Fred Kaps  3 cups Gary Animal  3 cups and a rubber chicken Gary Kurtz  3 cups Ger Cooper  3 cups Glenn Bishop  3 cups Gordon Bruce  3 cups (plastic) Guy Hollingworth  3 cups Hal Levy  3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls Hans Trixer  3 cups Harry Blackstone Sr  3 cups with 4 balls climax Henri Decremps  3 cup Henry Holava  3 cups (with square sponges Houdini  3 cups Irv Weiner  3 cups Jacques Ozanam  3 cups Jack Bateman  3 cups  "RubADubDub" routine Jacob Daley, M.D.  3 cups Jason Latimer  3 cups Jay Sankey  3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale Jean Hugard  3 cups Jeff Moche  3 cups Jerry Sadowitz  3 cups Jersey Jim  3 cups Jim Cellini  3 cups Jimmy Lake  3 cups Jim Merlini  3 cups Jim Ryan  3 cups Joe Berg  3 cups John Bannon  3 cups John Booth  3 cups with chicks finale John Carney  3 cups John George  3 cups John Mendoza  3 cups John Platt  3 cups Johnny Ace Palmer (USA)  3 cups (live chicks as final loads) Johnny Fox  3 cups + one wine glass finale Johnny Paul  3 cups Johnny Thompson  3 cups Jonathon Pendragon  3 cups Ken Brooke  3 cups Kristle  3 cups Kurt Ehrler  3 cups (combo cup routine) Larry Jennings  3 cups Laurie Ireland  3 cups Lewis Ganson  3 cups Luxor GaliGali (Mahguob Mohammad Hanafi)  3 cups with chicks finale Manuel Muerte  1 cup Marianne Heller  3 cups Mark Raffles (UK)  3 cups (with chick final loads) Mark Wilson  3 Cups Max Malini  3 cups Michael Ammar  3 cups Michael Vincent  3 cups Mike Perlman  3 cups Mike Rogers  3 cups Milton Kort  3 cups Nick Nickolas  3 cups Nick Trost  3 cups Orville W. Meyer  3 cups Pablo Minguet  3 cups Patrick Page  3 cups Paul Gertner  3 cups Paul Rosini  3 cups with 3 glasses of liquid finale Paul Rosini  3 cups with 6 chicks finale Penn and Teller  3 Cups 4 hands Pete Biro  3 cups Prince of Wales  3 cups Professor Hoffmann  3 cups Rafael Benatar  3 cups Randy Wakeman  3 cups Richard Kaufman  3 cups Ricky Dunn  3 cups and live chicks finale Ricky Jay  3 cups RobertHoudin  3 cups Robert White  3 cups Ron Jamison  3 cups Ross Bertram  3 cups with Chicks finale Roy Walton  3 cups Sawn Greer  3 cups Scotty York  3 cups Senor Mardo  3 cups Shawn Farquhar  3 cups with solidcups ending S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey)  3 cups Sonny Holiday  3 cups Steve Draun  3 cups Tom Franks  3 cups Tom Mullica  3 cups Tom Osborne  3 cups  2 CUPS ROUTINES WITH ANOTHER COVER ITEM  J.N. Hofzinser  2 cups & a hat Tim Ellis  2 cups and a juke box  3 CUPS ROUTINES WITH ANOTHER COVER ITEM  Gazzo  3 cups + 1 hat Kirk  3 cups and a bell Peter Wardell  3 cups & a hat  MORE THAN 3 CUPS ROUTINE  Bill Palmer  12 cups David Regal  6 cups  INDIAN CUPS AND BALLS ROUTINE  Andrew Elliot  3 Indian cups Charlie Miller  3 Hindu Style Cups John Platt  3 Indian cups Rinkhausen  3 Indian Cups  BOWL ROUTINES  Roy Benson  Benson Bowl  UNIQUE COVER OBJECTS ROUTINES  Bruno Hennig (Joro)  A routine with a bell Ian Adair  flower pots and "seeds" routine John Ramsay  2 Ice cream containers Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder)  Solid Can routine Lewis Ganson  3 Felt Bags Paul Gertner  hat and dice 


I forgot .... Lance Burton 3 cups with Live Mouse Finale. Harry Anderson  3 cups with Baseball final loads. 


Thanks, Mike. How many mouse did Lance Burton uses for the finale? And how many baseballs did Harry Anderson uses for the finale? 


I need to watch the Burton routine again ...i think it was three mice Harry ....4 baseballs and a softball? ....need to rewatch that one again too ....thanks for the evenings entertainment. Mike 


I think there's one by Shigeo Takagi (1 cup) I don't know how much detail I should tell in order not to expose any part of the genius in it. 


Thanks, zwong. Is Shigeo Takagi doing a 1 cup routine or a chop cup routine? What is his finale? Does he also work with 2 cups or 3 cups? How about the bowls routine? You can just reveal how many cups he used and what his finale is. 


The routine goes like this: Shigeo starts by playing around with a wooden cup and a ball, making it appear, disappear and travels between hand, pocket and cup. The ball then puff up and change size in the cup. So the "final" load is actually introduced before the end. Then it slowly became apparent that the cup is actually solid. The finale is when the final load actually penetrates the solid cup and revealed again when Shigeo separates the 2 halves of the cup. Well, as for as I understand it, it's a very gimmicked wooden cup which is really a normal sized wooden cup in 2 parts. The bottom (mouth side) part is solid while the top part is hollow and can be filled with loads. Both parts come together to form a very normal looking wooden cup. Not a chop cup. I hope that helps. 


I'm not aware of any bowl routines from him. If there is, I would love to see it! 


Thanks,Zwong, I will have Shigeo's name in the list in my next update. BTW, does he publish his routine in any book? 


Yes the book is The Amazing Miracles of Shigeo Takagi. The routine with the soilid cup is on page 26 The routine is calle simply : The Solid Cup It is really well thought out and uses two balls and two final loads. It appears to magicinas that he is using a chopped cup but it is not a chop cup at all. It was first written up in 1977. In the same book on page 94 Mr. Takagi has a three bowl routine. Title of it is : Owan to Toma uses silk traditional balls that he teaches you how to make and a fruit (3 ) final load. It is performed to traditional Japanese Soft steady music. It is a very pretty routine. I would like to get a cup from Jake now....the routines are too good not to work on. Later, Mobius 


Thanks, Mike. Shigeo Takagi's name will also be mentioned in the list under the bowls routine. 


[quote] On 20070716 15:34, Mobius303 wrote: Yes the book is The Amazing Miracles of Shigeo Takagi. The routine with the soilid cup is on page 26 The routine is calle simply : The Solid Cup It is really well thought out and uses two balls and two final loads. It appears to magicinas that he is using a chopped cup but it is not a chop cup at all. It was first written up in 1977. In the same book on page 94 Mr. Takagi has a three bowl routine. Title of it is : Owan to Toma uses silk traditional balls that he teaches you how to make and a fruit (3 ) final load. It is performed to traditional Japanese Soft steady music. It is a very pretty routine. I would like to get a cup from Jake now....the routines are too good not to work on. Later, Mobius [/quote] Well said. I couldn't have put it better myself. Yes, the routines are too good not to work on. Any idea where I can get my hands on the special solid cups of his? 


The solid cup occasionally shows up on magic auction sites, such as Ron Alessi's IMA site. Tricks, Inc. has issued a copy of this cup. 


I think Jake at RnTII is also doing a version of the solid cup (it may be one of his limited editions, though). 


The solid cup would be a good and different routine to play with. Any idea when Jake is launching his version of the solid cup? 


I thought it was already on his site. Mobius 


It's in the 'One of a Kind' section of the RnT2 website. Richard 


Is Jake having a few sets left or is that the only one left at his site? 


Hi everyone, sorry for not chiming in sooner, I was away in Jersey for a funeral for the past several days. I generally make these to order, solid or 2 piece. Price is generally dictated on the type of wood you choose. We do not supply a routine, it's simply the props. All of the cups we have done for this have been either Rosewood or a burl wood. I believe Harry Murphy gave us a favorable review on the Café of our solid cup made of East Indies Rosewood. Any questions, please feel free to PM or email me a jake@rnt2.com I'm trying to get caught up on emails and PM's as quickly as possible from over the past few days and have some orders to fill, I'll get back to you as soon as I can with a reply if you write. Jake 


Magicians that I have seen live performing cups and balls include: Michael Ammar Shawn Farquhar Tim Ellis Nick Nicholas 


My list of live viewings includes: Michael Ammar Johnny "Ace" Palmer Someone who produced baseballs, and a full size baseball BAT Michael Skinner Tom Frank Gazzo Maybe that's telling us something. Of all the people performing this, when it comes down to it very few people have actually seen this performed live and in public. All mine (with the exception of Skinner) have been magician only events. If we as magicians haven't seen that many, what are the chances that the average layperson has ever seen this at all? The field is wide open out there. Of all the variations available, it's for our own enjoyment. As far as percentages go, nobody seems to see this stuff but us. 


Did we omit Danny Tong's Chop Cup routine 


Thanks, Noel. I think Danny Tong's name is not in the list. I will include him in. May I know what balls and how many does he use? How about his finale? How many final loads? What balls does he use? What cup does he use? 


I never thought to mention him because it's not a "Cups and Balls" routine. Danny uses one ball(as far as they know), one cup. The "final load" is a build up from a color change, to another(larger) ball. 


Is Danny's one cup routine a one cup routine or is it a chop cup routine? Does he perform 2 or 3 cups routine also? 


This particular one is definitely "Chop Cup" although he precedes it with a few sleight of hand moves. In that case, this one blurs the lines a bit. For $10 you can see it on the new "Reel Magic Quarterly" video magazine advertised here. 


Danny's routine is on his #2 video. To the audience it's one ball. The finaly is 2 large but different type balls as I recall. There may be a color change as well but I can't remember. 


Yes, the first reveal of a "second ball" is a color change. "You may have figured that I use two balls, one's green (the first was red), the other looks an awful lot like [i]that[/i]" as he reveals the large yellow ball. Nice double climax to a very smooth routine. 


Here's the latest update on the 'Cups and Balls Routines'. Instead of searchning through this thread for the latest update all the time, I have created a web page for this list. This is to make it easy for everyone to print a copy of it every time it is updated. [url=http://www.uniquemagicballs.com/cafe/cbrl/routinelist.html]Please Click Here to view the latest update on the Cups and Balls Routines List[/url] 


OK here are some pertinent notes: Abraham Bongers you list is really Fred Kaps' actual name. He did a 3 cup routine with sponge balls. As did: Senator Crandall, Laurie Ireland, Johnny Paul, Jim Ryan. (All Chicago bar types. Jay Marshall did cups and balls DAnny Dew and Paul Fox too. Indian Cups: Shankar Junior, Charlie Miller and Johnny Platt (and yours truly). There is another Indian magician on YouTube that does it as well. Don Alan did Chop Cup, Bowl and a Hat routine (all in same show) Called "A Darker Shade of Malini" producing a lump of coal instead of the block of ice. Paul Daniels does the Chop Cup AS WELL AS THE MALINI with hat and BLOCK OF ICE. SERGIO BARROS is a terrific busker in London (he's Brazilian) and learned the routine FROM Gazzo. Lee Hathaway is another UK Busker in Covent Garden doing cups. Dean Dill has a clever routine with 3 cups as does Allan Hayden (based on "find the pea" and is similar at the end to the Vernon. Mike Rogers did Paul Fox chick cups in trade shows. Vernonesque routine Fred Kaps did a 1cup routine using a collapsible camera lens shade (so it would fold flat I his pocket) Bill Wells, USA, does a routine in Colonial Williamsburg that fits the time with costume, etc. Joe Berg had a set of cups made of Wicker? or Raffia? he marketed. OK CHOP CUPS YOU MISSED AL WHEATLEY AKA CHOP CHOP Ron Wilson (many think Larry Jennings created the routine but it was Wilson with Bob Stencel who came up with the load using a silk for cover). I created the bowl routine using a musical TAMBOURINE the noise of the tambo covers a noisy load. Pat Page showed in a video loading a huge fistfull of coins on a glass table top. No noticable sound thanks to the Tambo. I also used a rubber toilet plunger (others came up with same idea independently" One being Mike caveney Benson's Bowl was based on the Japanese Owan ta toma written up by Takagi (who I saw do this)... The other early bowl routine was the REZVANI TOMATO TRICK.... Which I have adapted some of, but the MASTER with it was DICK ZIMMERMAN, usa, who did it cross legged on the floor and fried all with the final load (a brick)! Did you list Shankar Jr. with Indian cups? There is an Indian performer on You Tube doing it in the streets in India, forget his name. Goshman did a great Bowl Routine finishing with a large bagel, followed by "Locks" (LOX?) Padlocks. Oh, Mark Jensest routine with the little jigger "jiggernaut" ?? My Cocktail surprise using a cocktail shaker for a one cup routine Shoot Ogwawa also does a one cup routine with a cocktail shaker That's all I can think of right now. phew 


Hi, The spelling is "OWAN TO TAMA"... John Carney has a routine with a coffee cup, a crumpled bill from which a corner has been cut off and given to a spectator and a knife.The final load is a lemon, inside which is found the vanished bill. The final climax is when _ of course _ the corner matches the bill. It's in Carneycopia, p. 99. There's also Harry Riser's routine involving three heavy copper Ross Bertram cups, five crochetcovered cork balls an inch diameter, and three crochetcovered rubber balls, two and a half diameter. I have read the post, yet maybe those inputs have already been done... Sorry if it's the case, Regards, 


I do a one cup and ball routine using metal balls throughout. It can be done table hopping and requires no lapping. its on my DVD "Punishment" available from Murphys. 


Pete: THANK YOU very much for those latest inputs and corrections. Hope you did not get arthritis posting them LOL :) lawrens: Thanks for the input. Will check and include them as well. swindler: I will include you in the list. Thanks for dropping by. This list will continue to grow as more inputs are contributed. A very BIG THANK YOU to all that have contributed. 


My routine uses 3 cups with 4 oranges and a coconut final load. 


2 cups, 3 very special working balls, 3 whatever I can get final loads (I am desiring Doug Higley's shrunken heads) and a great deal of profanity. 


[quote] On 20070831 08:29, swindler wrote: I do a one cup and ball routine using metal balls throughout. It can be done table hopping and requires no lapping. its on my DVD "Punishment" available from Murphys. [/quote] that is a great routine! todd 


Frank: Your 3 cups routine will be added to the list. Josh: Your 2 cups routine will also be added to the list. 


I never thought that I'd get on this list but here goes: I do a three cup routine, my final loads are three fake eggs. I do a two cup routine but it is basically David Williamsons. I do a chop cup routine, the final load is an eight ball. I am working on a two chop cup routine. Tom 


Suzanne, a wonderful female close upper from Minnesota (a student of Al Schneider) does a wonderful cups and balls routine (3 cups) with a finish of a cup full of "diamonds" (zircons?) Which fools me and I understand is a creation of Al's. 


Thanks, Pete. May I know Suzanne's full name? I would like to include her to the list too. 


[quote] On 20070831 18:39, Tom Fenton wrote: I never thought that I'd get on this list but here goes: I do a three cup routine, my final loads are three fake eggs. I do a two cup routine but it is basically David Williamsons. I do a chop cup routine, the final load is an eight ball. I am working on a two chop cup routine. Tom [/quote] Tom, you will be in the list. Nice routines you have there. 


Sorry, James, she only uses "Suzanne" and I don't know her full name. It's kinda like "Gazzo" that's all he uses. 


Thanks, Pete. I will just list her as Suzanne then. Hope to find her full name one day. 


Hey James. Thanks for compiling that massive list for us.  Freddy 


James  Sue's last name is Sinclair. Sue uses rhinestones as a final load. The principle she employes is demonstrated by Al Schneider on his DVD set; Al uses 'shards' of glass. Getting enough rhinestones to fill a cup can be pretty expensive, though Czechmade rhinestones are much cheaper. A much trickier business is to get the foil backing off the stones so that they look like real diamonds. I use rhinestones as a load for my Sherwood cups and have done some work on the preparation of the stones and would be happy to share if interested. Richard 


There is routine by R. Shane in his book Pentalogy. It is a storyteller routine, wich uses an story about a curse made by an ancient egyptian magician. It is a three/two cups routine, with sheets of parchment and an scorpio as final load. 


[quote] On 20080110 16:50, Magnalucius wrote: There is routine by R. Shane in his book Pentalogy. It is a storyteller routine, wich uses an story about a curse made by an ancient egyptian magician. It is a three/two cups routine, with sheets of parchment and an scorpio as final load. [/quote] this c&b routine is also sold standalone from lybrary.com as "the sting". todd 


Shigeo Takagi's first version of his "One cup routine" did not use a cup that split in two, it was just turned solid wood shaped like a cup. When he updated it as the "New One Cup Routine" he added the split cup and different ending. I know because I own the New Cup Routine (purchased from Jeff Busby in the Eighties), and the original instuctions are for a regular solid cup, but appended into the booklet are the new instructions for New Cup and the suprise ending. It is not a chopcup, but a "seemingly" solid cup. Should we also add the Beanie Weenie routine by Paul Harris (another Solid Cup Routine but done with a can of Van Camps Beanie Weenies)? I hate to say it, but I actually prefer this effect to Takagi's... I also must second Suzanne's routine; I saw her do her her C/B routine at a convention a couple of years ago and it is a thing of beauty! Suzanne, you rock! Douglas M. 


I think Beanie Weenie is actually David Williamson's. The best of this genre, IMHO, is Lonnie Chevrie's. He starts with a seemingly empty pudding can. He also involves a golf ball. At the end, the golf ball disappears. He turns the can over, and it is sealed. He opens the can and the golf ball is inside, in the pudding. 


Anyone here seen Scott York's Cups and Balls manuscript from the 70's I think it's called "XRated" or something like that? 


Yes. It comes up on eBay from time to time. XRated cups and balls routine. 


[quote] On 20080113 20:09, Bill Palmer wrote: Yes. It comes up on eBay from time to time. XRated cups and balls routine. [/quote] Aye, that's the one... anyone ever read it? Opinions? 


It's an effective routine. But, then again, all of Scotty's stuff is effective. 


[quote]On 20080113 19:54, Bill Palmer wrote: I think Beanie Weenie is actually David Williamson's.[/quote] There's a description in M. Ammar "Encore III"... 


Paul Harris Published a 1 cup routine in Magic Manuscript  early to mid 80's. Not sure if it was included in art of astonishment. and Al Cohn had a 3 cup routine. published in Pallbearers review. 


Oops, when I said Paul Harris "Beanie Weenie", I meant "Uncanny". It is from Las Vegas Close Up, 1978. Michael Ammar redid the effect as "Beanie Weenie" in his World Class Close Up V.2 tape, 1979. For what its' worth, the Takagi New Cup Routine came with a matching wooden wand that was used to produce the ball at the beginning. Also, John Bannon has a nice chop cup routine called Chop2 in Impossibilia. Douglas M. 


Robert Olson was the person who established the Richard Potter character for Colonial Williamsburg. He did a three cup routine. 


Dolly Parton's two cup routine is my favorite (:) 


Did harry anderson ever do the cups and balls? if so would he qualify for this list. 


Only if he has a unique cups and balls routine. I know he did the cups and balls at one time, but his routine, if it was different, was never published or put on video. 


Is there a Cups & Balls routine with a distinctly "Vegas" script/effect? 


Okay, I know this thread is older and has been recently invigorated. My favorite routine to perform is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEYmGnK4K9g I'm still debating with myself whether I like Antonio Romero or Tommy Wonder's routine the absolute best. KG 


Over this fourth of July weekend it was my privilege to do my cups and balls routine as a walk around effect. This is was performing outside over a very hot and humid weekend. I had a magician at one of the tables say that they liked my cups and balls routine. I said thanks  it is commercial. It reminded me of a conversation I had about the cups and balls with Jim Ryan. In this conversation it was a discussion about how important it is that a performing magician keep it and their other routines commercial. To me  loading from the lap and having to sit down to be able to do the cups and balls  to me it was never a practical way to do it. Being able to do a cups and balls routine with loads under the hot and humid performing conditions of being outside to me is the acid test of what a good cups and balls routine really can be. I hope this helps. 


Glenn, I know there's video of you at the castle doing your routine. Would you consider putting a link to it, up here? I think you handle the final loads far better than most. KG 


[quote] On 20100702 16:54, majik_1 wrote: Did harry anderson ever do the cups and balls? if so would he qualify for this list. [/quote] Yes, Harry Anderson performed his cups and balls routine on his second network television special I believe. 


I don't remember Harry Anderson doing a cups and balls routine on a TV special however I do remember him doing the shellgame  I would have liked to see Harry Anderson do the cups and balls  because Harry Anderson is a great performer and what he does is commercial. Perhaps if there is video on line somewhere someone may provide a link. Thanks in advance. 


Glenn, Would you post a link to your routine? Thanks in advance. KG 


Hi James, I don't think it was mentioned Daryl's one cup routine (a mug and borrowed bill) and Marc DeSouza routine (3 cups, Vernonessque in style). I don't know if they're in print but You can see Daryl's in vol. one of his Fooler Dooler sereies and Marc's in vol. 4 of Master Works series. Also I would add Mendoza's Chop cup. Ciao. 


Here you go Kent... http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/glennbishopcastle.wmv And here is a link to my commercial shellgame routine. http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/shellgameglennbishops.wmv And here is a link to my commercial 3 card monte routine. http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/glennbishop3monte.wmv Why do I do these things the way that I do them? Because they are commercial, solid  and stood the test of time  and the hardest performing conditions that there are out on the road in today’s show business world. That is the reason I use things like the punch cull because it works under the hard  real life performing conditions  like my triumph shuffle techniques  because it is commercial. There are some books on theory in magic but almost none on being commercial. Maybe I should write a book on the theory of being commercial. I hope this helps. 


Thanks Glenn! We can safely add your very commercial routine to the list here. KG 


Nice routine :) 


Thanks Lawrence O When I started to do the cups and balls I started with an Adams plastic set. Then later on I used the sets we had at the old Marshall Brodien Magic Shop that was at Old Chicago Amusement Park  They were the old rings and things sets. My first set was a set of stainless steel rings and things cups. The first working routine I used was the Jim Ryan routine. Later On I did the Dai Vernon routine. To many magicians in Chicago did the Dai Vernon routine in the restaurants in Chicago in those days  so I took a few ideas from Jim Ryan and the Vernon routine and added a few of my own ideas and this was the start of this routine. After doing it a few years  I cut it down and changed it  kept in the highlights and the routine evolved into what I do today. The way that I was schooled in magic  was that the public has only time to watch the highlights. That is why my cups and balls  shellgame  chop dice cup  and three card monte routines  have shortened over the years. Just one of those things I learned  the way I was schooled in magic  growing up  and keeping my magic commercial I hope this helps. 


Glenn: Mike Brazill did not (to my knowledgel) issue any stainless steel cups when he had Rings and Things. However, he did issue some chrome plated steel cups, which were the ones that were known as the Bells of St. Mary's. The plating on the was so good that they never tarnished. They were probably the best cups made during that time, including the Paul Fox cups. Just a point of information. 


Thanks Bill for the history. I was told when I got them that they were stainless steel. However learning from your post  they could not have been. They must have been the chrome plated steel cups then. Thanks for the info Bill. 


I rember someone dose cups and balls routine with cup in hat. Does anyone know that? I think it wat on TV show. Thanks 


My collection of routines is way too long to be listed here. I added a three cups routine using metallic balls with a script about the Inquisition burning C&Bs performers. On the chop cup front I also committed a routine dealing with the traditional tea ceremony. Both are heavily influenced with the In Transit Actions misdirection concept developed by Arturo Ascanio. For safe keeping, these were entrusted to Bill Palmer. Please also consider in your list that there are routine of cups and balls performed with especially printed playing cards (ask our Indian friends) 