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Topic: Bit torrent sites
Message: Posted by: DavidKenney (Jul 8, 2007 01:10AM)
Dude, what the heck, I did a GOOGLE search for my name and effects I have typed up for my own personal use are on a grip of bit torrent sites.

that makes me so mad.... nothing I can do
Message: Posted by: busterjuggler (Jul 8, 2007 01:20AM)
Can you rephrase, I can't understand, tricks you created are on bittorrent without your permission?

James
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Jul 8, 2007 01:30AM)
Yes, some of my stuff is on those sites as well. A couple of my books. Without my permission and w/o the permission of the guy to whom I sold the rights.
Message: Posted by: Guardian452 (Jul 8, 2007 01:52AM)
I have a friend who is COMPLETE bit torrent guy

doesn't buy ANYTHING

just downloads stuff


he sent me 2 cds full of stuff he illegally downloaded....i didn't know this at the time

So is it "unethical" to still watch the things on the CDS???
Message: Posted by: ScottRSullivan (Jul 8, 2007 10:37AM)
Is it ethical (or even legal) to walk by a store being robbed, look in for a minute, and then just keep walking without calling 911?

A friend makes an illegal copy of a movie ticket. Is it right to use the ticket?

A friend makes an illegal copy of a movie DVD. Is it right to watch that?

I think the answer to all three is the same and is pretty cut and dry.
Message: Posted by: Noel M (Jul 8, 2007 11:44AM)
Only using the ticket is illegal. All are unethical.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Jul 8, 2007 05:30PM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-08 02:52, Guardian452 wrote:
I have a friend who is COMPLETE bit torrent guy

doesn't buy ANYTHING

just downloads stuff


he sent me 2 cds full of stuff he illegally downloaded....i didn't know this at the time

So is it "unethical" to still watch the things on the CDS???
[/quote]

Sorry, but yes, it is. The ethical thing to do is to destroy the CDs and tell your friend to knock it off. He is stealing, plain and simple. He is stealing from people who put a lot of time, effort and MONEY into learning the art, and he is spitting in their faces and giving them the finger even as he learns the material they spent all that time, effort and MONEY to aquire and create.
Message: Posted by: Guardian452 (Jul 8, 2007 06:17PM)
Alrighty

ill try telling him to stop
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 9, 2007 07:56AM)
Perhaps you could ask him how he would feel if he wrote something and was selling it to pay his rent and then found out somebody else had uploaded it and was making it available for free. Most folks are pretty conscientious when they think about how it feels to be in the other guy's shoes.
Message: Posted by: DavidKenney (Jul 9, 2007 11:51AM)
Ok, this is not a rebuttal it's a joke I heard and it goes like this, "I was watching a DVD and at the beginning there was an FBI warning that said, 'Don't steal this movie, would you steal from someone's home? Would you steal a car?' and I thought to myself 'well, no' But if my friend just said, 'Hey, I got a brand new car - would you like me to burn you a copy/' I'd say - "HELL YEA!"
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 10, 2007 07:50AM)
So the joke it that's it's okay to "copy" a car worth many thousands of dollars but (supposedly) not a trick or video offering tricks that is worth perhaps fifty dollars. Got you.
Message: Posted by: Steven Leung (Jul 11, 2007 05:05AM)
Unfortunately, there is no use for us to yell it is wrong...

Even the creator / copyright owner did nothing to stop them, maybe they cannot stop them afterall...

Already give up hope in such issue...
Message: Posted by: Banester (Jul 11, 2007 08:57AM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-10 08:50, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
So the joke it that's it's okay to "copy" a car worth many thousands of dollars but (supposedly) not a trick or video offering tricks that is worth perhaps fifty dollars. Got you.
[/quote]

Think that joke refers to the state of mind that people are currently in. Can you imagine being able to sue someone for coffee that is too hot, but you can't stop the guy from selling/copying your products. Well only if you have deep pockets because nobody wants to take on those cases.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Jul 11, 2007 01:01PM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-11 06:05, Steven Leung wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no use for us to yell it is wrong...

Even the creator / copyright owner did nothing to stop them, maybe they cannot stop them afterall...

Already give up hope in such issue...
[/quote]

Where are you getting your information? Because you're dead wrong. I for one, have tried to stop this. The problem is that it is so widespread and so easy for people to tear down one site and put up a new one. The other problem is that people are so quick to say things like, "There's no use for us to say that it's wrong." This shouldn't just be up to the creator. If you see or know of someone doing this kind of thing, whether you created it or not, you should do everything in your power to stop it.


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Jul 11, 2007 11:02PM)
Scott is right - there is a grand difference between a kid on YouTube giving his "tutorial" and a kid distributing copies of law-protected material.

But as mentioned above, it is like stopping a ocean to float the beach. The music industry is a good example. They fight like hell, but it is unlikely they will ever win the battle. Hence they are transforming their way of doing business.

Andy
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Jul 12, 2007 01:23AM)
And just because they get away with it doesn't mean it isn't wrong. Just because they get away with doesn't mean we shouldn't say it's wrong. Just because they get away with it doesn't mean we should participate in it.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Jul 12, 2007 03:26AM)
Right - so how do we face this? What changes do we need to make?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 12, 2007 08:16AM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-12 02:23, Scott F. Guinn wrote:
And just because they get away with it doesn't mean it isn't wrong. Just because they get away with doesn't mean we shouldn't say it's wrong. Just because they get away with it doesn't mean we should participate in it.
[/quote]

Let's collapse that argument down so we can waste less time fussing:

Whether you are using a "borrowed" move, a work which was put into print without it's inventor/creator's permission during or after after their death, or somthing you got via gossip... or just downloaded it from the internet the result is the same. Let us not fuss over words where actions speak for themselves and results make the underlying principles clear. Know them by their works.

And just because they get away with it... doen't mean we should participate in it... unless it serves our purposes.

There are stones raining in through the roof and walls of the glass house of ethics in magicdom.

Magician, fool thyself.
Message: Posted by: Rocketeer (Jul 28, 2007 03:28AM)
Perhaps it's becoming time to reconsider ebooks. They're an enormously convenient and low cost way to publish and the instant gratification is great fun for the buyer (I just bought Switchcraft last night). But with hardcopy at least the thief has to take the time to scan in the whole book.

I wrote two books (on computers and the Web, published in 1987 and 1997 respectively) and I'm thinking of writing one on magic. If I do I think I may stick to dead trees.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Jul 28, 2007 07:13AM)
I don't think going to through the legal system (at least at this time) is going to stop it. We need to make an effort to change societies outlook on it. There should be no question whether it is legal or ethical in anyone's mind. We need to find better technology to slow it down.

On the more positive side, I think most working pros do buy their material, and those that don't perform much, and can't afford to purchase it, are the ones downloading it.

I personally prefer a "real" book over an ebook. They are easier to read (at this time). I imagine within 15 years a "real" book will be obsolete.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Jul 28, 2007 07:38AM)
I got very curious after reading this post and surved around the internet. Guess what - it is all out there. Especially the e-books and DVDs.

For me it is clear now - I will never publish an e-book.

Andy
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Jul 28, 2007 01:00PM)
OK in theory. However, the books in question that I mentioned above as being stolen and available on the bit torrent site WERE NEVER RELEASED AS EBOOKS! They were hard copy books. The guy just scanned them. At least if he's stealing my ebooks, I don't have all the money invested in them that I do in hard copies.
Message: Posted by: BlackShadow (Jul 28, 2007 08:45PM)
The thing is, a lot of these bit torrent kiddies are no real threat. They just collect magic for the sake of collecting it. They've no intention of performing it, practicing it, or even reading it. I was on a webpage recently where some unfortunate loser proudly detailed the magic he had obtained from illegal downloads. It ran into about 20 pages of pdfs, dvds etc. Thousands of items. Just a handful of those works would represent a lifetime of learning to perform it properly. He and many like him wont even be looking at the stuff they download. The fun for them is in the collecting, just like someone may collect football stickers.

Since they've no intention of performing, and are not the types who would have bought it anyway, they probably pose less threat than many think. I'm not saying that the process is right. Clearly it isn't, but it's not as much of a threat to markets, exposure, or genuine sales as may be imagined.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Jul 28, 2007 08:56PM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-28 14:00, Scott F. Guinn wrote:
OK in theory. However, the books in question that I mentioned above as being stolen and available on the bit torrent site WERE NEVER RELEASED AS EBOOKS! They were hard copy books. The guy just scanned them. At least if he's stealing my ebooks, I don't have all the money invested in them that I do in hard copies.
[/quote]

I noticed that too . . but it takes much more effort to scan a book. You must be really dedicated to do something. I guess, it was the byproduct of a number of kids buying one copy for them all. But luckily this is not the norm . . at least I hope so.
Message: Posted by: NYCJoePitt (Jul 30, 2007 11:11PM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-08 02:52, Guardian452 wrote:
<snip>

So is it "unethical" to still watch the things on the CDS???
[/quote]

On the other hand, here is a perfect opportunity to educate somebody young who is asking a very reasonable question.

So Guardian, as you have probably gathered by now, the "right" thing to do is not to watch these CDS. If you already watched them and you liked something that you saw and want to perform, you should save your money and buy the CD/DVDs from a reputable magic store. You should throw away the CDS your friend gave you and tell him that you don't want any more from him.

As we go through life some times we are offered things that come easily. Unfortunately, the easy way is not always the best way. This is just one of those times. And Guardian, it doesn't have to be your job to set your friend "straight" about this topic. You just don't have to take any more CDs from him. Or if you do, just throw them away.

Anyway, that is my $.02.
Message: Posted by: The Amazing Noobini (Jul 31, 2007 05:22AM)
I think the right or wrong question is somewhat irrelevant. The times have changed and this is what we currently have. If you took all the bad sides of this technology and weighed it against all the good sides of it, I think it is pretty clear which would win.

Everybody want something for free if they have the chance. This is humnan nature and I'd like to see one person who claim that they'd never taped a movie off the tv or xeroxed an article from a magazine.

As Guardian452 shows us, many people still have a concience. This tends to emerge as one gets older. And what happens then? The kids who now have money they actually want to spend on items go with the names they have found to be their favorites. Nobody is going to take six months of allowance to buy Green Magic vol 1-6 just to see what it is. Besides it would be embarrassing running into the source of a move and then having to try to remember if you got it from a pirate site or if you bought it.

One of the reasons why the new consumer greedily grabs the option to try before you buy is that the majority of the companies offering the products lie. They hype up and advertize the most useless product in order to scam people into buying it. People won't go along with that when they don't have to.

When I was first subjected to someone taking my photographs and converting them by hand into detailed pencil drawings and then putting them up as their work, I was furious. Later I learnt that this was perfect for having an image travel and become more known. Nobody stabbed me in the back. A mashup is a tribute.

As long as nobody sells it and makes money off of your work, then I think it is acceptable. Filesharing kids actually diminish the market for pirated things for sale. And I don't believe for a second that sales plummit like the record companies claim to justify suing the parents of teenagers for thousands of dollars.

Good or bad, this is what the world is like. Period. If you didn't want the technique to become widely known outside of an "inner circle" then you wouldn't have launched it on DVD and marketed it aggressively.
Message: Posted by: Ed Mauve (Jul 31, 2007 10:05AM)
I agreed with The Amazing Noobini.

Most people, in fact so many people quote they all dislike ebooks. So other than the convenience to bring around, nobody wants to read much less to learn from ebooks. Why are there still circulation of illegal copies of pdf?

Without the convenience of todays' technology, I believe there wouldn't even be that many books/dvds/props/ideas to share and singular(nameless) people getting famous in short period of time and coming out few pages material to sell high. Getting great reviews and recommendation from so many professionals' help. I'm sure any news will take months if not years to reach another continent then.

Another way to make scanning tedious can also be publishing thicker books perhaps?
There's no perfect balance, if you're able to sell it worldwide, that makes your name well known, and already that is most important aspect for a performer, don't you think so?
Look at the bright side don't dwell too much on BT, it's pointless. There may still individuals who may not know BT but after reading this, it'll be, oh.. so I can download free from BT now, whats the point? Youtube..? I don't even know there's exposure till they post here in Magic Café, so who's spreading the news anyway, us or them? We discussed as in human nature, but think again, an't we also accomplice in helping the wildfire spread wider and to more areas? So who do we blame anyway, the 1st that builds computer or the 1st that launch WWW.? :)

-my 2 cents.
Message: Posted by: The Amazing Noobini (Aug 1, 2007 12:42PM)
I should perhaps add the most important thing:

Just because something "is on the internet" doesn't mean that a billion people have/will/can download it.

I'm sure if some of you were to look at some web statistic for the BitTorrent files of yours that you have found online, you would see that maybe 3-12 people have downloded the material. Of those I would guess that a couple will buy the material in question if they were to use it. Or if they simply think it's any good. The rest are mostly people who don't want it bad enough to have paid for it in any case.

Furthermore, most BitTorrent files have a very short period of freshness after which they cannot be downloaded even if the page or Google still shows the file as being available. It is basically a news based filesharing system. Nobody reads last weeks papers.

Also, the majority of pirated magic material online seems to be from Ellusionist or Penguin Magic, the very ones who target the kids with their advertizing. As far as the majority of magicians here go... Although there are many brilliant talented people here, you just aren't as hip with the kids as Eminem. Which is of course another symptom of how twisted the world we live in is. But nevertheless a fact.

Basically, the problem of lost income is non existent. Relax.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Aug 2, 2007 03:10AM)
I do think that there is an issue of lost income - just look at the music industry.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 2, 2007 08:24AM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-02 04:10, Andy the cardician wrote:
I do think that there is an issue of lost income - just look at the music industry.
[/quote]

The artists make their money from cd sales? Or from performances and endorsements?

What specifically would you have us consider?
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Aug 2, 2007 11:22AM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-31 06:22, The Amazing Noobini wrote:
I think the right or wrong question is somewhat irrelevant. If you took all the bad sides of this technology and weighed it against all the good sides of it, I think it is pretty clear which would win.
[/quote]

Am I the only person who sees a glaring contradiction in these two statements from the same paragraph this post?
Message: Posted by: The Amazing Noobini (Aug 2, 2007 03:25PM)
Hehe. Yes, you are right that was contradictory. Forgive me, English isn't my regular language.

They are separate arguments that somehow ended up together. I'm sure you are able to figure out what I was trying to say if you are really interested in doing so.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Aug 2, 2007 10:58PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-02 09:24, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-08-02 04:10, Andy the cardician wrote:
I do think that there is an issue of lost income - just look at the music industry.
[/quote]

The artists make their money from cd sales? Or from performances and endorsements?

What specifically would you have us consider?
[/quote]

I mean the fact that sales are constantly declining, despite the fact that people are listening to even more music.

The additional income of artists for performing and endorsements is untouched . . good point.
Message: Posted by: The Amazing Noobini (Aug 3, 2007 06:02AM)
I think the music or film industry and the magic book or DVD industry are very unsuited for comparison. That would be like comparing the Nestlé group to a local corner shop.

For every five copies of a magic PDF book which is illegally downloaded, I would think there are fifty that have their content at least partially copied the old fashioned way, by Xeroxing or lending. The sale of second hand material here is as big a cause for lost income as pirating. But nobody cares about that because it isn't a new phenomena. It is accepted and therefore a non issue. It doesn't have that air of mysterious scary new developement.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Aug 4, 2007 07:21PM)
I agree that this is a different scale, but the impact remains the same - namely less sales. In that sense I do see a comparison.

The lending and copying you have mentioned was always around - including in the music industry. Technology, however made it much easier, affordable scanners and CD/DVD burners paved the way.

Another impact is the net - and here is the real problem. In the past, you could only pass copies to your friends - and they to theirs and so on. It is more or less a two dimentional spread.

Now however, you can create a multidimensional spread. Nuch faster and wider.
Message: Posted by: Dr Desmond Jones (Aug 17, 2007 09:46AM)
I like the copy of a car thing. But now lets take a custom chopper and rip it off. Some ones heart and soul went into that. that's shady!

The fact we are even having a debate on ethics of stealing is "F"ed up big time. It's theft. You know you are doing it: And I think you are a very low life person (I cant say what Id like to here). May you strain your eyes reading bootlegged books and endure a death of millions of paper cuts from bootlegged printed books. And may your printers run out of ink extremely quickly!
Message: Posted by: Banester (Aug 17, 2007 04:17PM)
For those that feel the artist is not doing anything must realize that a lot of those bit torrent's (newsgroups) are from hackers. You are most likely not going to be able to block them and good luck trying to actually find them.

I am surprised magic is on there. Most of it is usally music, movies and computer software. Honestly I am surprised the music industry has not gone after them yet.

Not sure on how all the legallity works, but the item is usually chopped into many segments and you would need to combine all of the segments (not just a few) in order to view/hear/read it. That might be how they work around the copyrights, not sure maybe Johanthon can add some to that?

While the hackers would be hard to track the servers where the information is stored wouldn't be. For those of you with published works you might want to try and find the host server and contact them, I would think they would not want to be involved with any legal matters.
Message: Posted by: Justin N. Miller (Aug 18, 2007 08:07AM)
I JUST found out about torrent sites last night and to my horrible surprise ALL of my dvds and lecture notes are up! I am not happy at all about this. AND,one of the guys who put it up bauerdude is the same guy who started a thread about me and me not getting back to him. He is buying my stuff and then putting it up on these sites...makes me sick and my family is pretty ticked off as well (wife and 2 kids) STAY CLEAR OF BAUERDUDE...he is now made!



Justin N. Miller
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Aug 19, 2007 10:51PM)
Justin, I feel for you. I am afraid that there is nothing we can do against people using the net to share. Even the strong music and movie industry is rather helpless . . .

Banaster, you are wrong regarding the location of the data.
I did a little bit of reserach. As I now understand the technology, the data are on the PCs of the users. They use the torrent programs to connect amongst themselves and share data. So there is no server data storing involved. The only thing the server stores are the torrent protocols. So you will gain nothing by tracking down the server. As a matter of fact, the providers only offer the platform for file sharing and reject all responsibility.
And even if you track down a server, chances are that it is outside the US and therefore outside the legal jurisdiction . . .

Andy
Message: Posted by: Banester (Aug 20, 2007 11:56AM)
Andy, you are correct in some instances, but there are newsgroup servers out there that you can post your information to. Some will even charge you to be a member with exclusive downloading from thier server. The policy below is actually listed from one of those servers:

[quote] Upon notification to EasyNews of a claimed copyright infringement as described below, EasyNews will respond expeditiously to remove, or disable access to, the material that is claimed to be infringing or to be the subject of infringing activity pursuant to the following terms and conditions: [/quote]

Like I said if you contact them they will help you.

Also, the guys who are posting things that are questionable are not going to be the ones who have it stored on thier home/business computer.

Justin said his book was listed in the groups, let me clarify what someone would have to do to get it. It is not just going to be listed as book A or book B, it will most likely be 30-40 files each with different names and sometimes not even the correct names or matching ones. Someone would have to download ALL of the files, missing even one file will render the whole thing useless! Once ALL files have been collected it would have to be converted to a different file format, unziped and then combined to make one format. All of this takes special software which would need to be purchased. Still a leak, but not as much exposure as youtube, at least in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Aug 22, 2007 01:26AM)
Banester,

Agree that we can report this and have the torrent removed. However, the next poster will be up soon with a new one. Additionally, there are a big bunch of torrent servers out there.

Where will the data be? Agree that the original poster will not forever send this around. The first posting will have to come from the own PC of the poster. Once some copies are out in the world, some of those guys will act as multiplier, using their own PC to spread the data.

You are also correct that the book in question is probably not available as stand alone file, but bundled with some other e-books. Such that you have to download the whole bunch. It does not mean that in the future someone will not put up a torrent with just that one e-book. So the problem remains.

As for the software requirements, I am afraid that the world has become much easier.
- Packer software such as Winzip or RAR is free for trials. You can simply reinstall them after using up your number of free trials. However, the web offers enough serial numbers to get your product steady. Google "Serial and Key-Gen" and you know what I mean.
- The torrent software if free of charge.
- The adobe reader is free of charge.

Agree that is sounds awfully complex, but for the kids out there, it is a piece of cake.

This is the world today, I am afraid . . .

Andy
Message: Posted by: Strangelittleman (Aug 22, 2007 01:56AM)
Actually, I've used Torrentz (yep-spelt with a z by the hip youngsters) before, and still do. NOTHING COPYWRITED before people start building a pyre, I use them regularly with friends to get OUR material to each other, for editing, approval, graphics etc - its easy and we can all be downloading from each other, hence making it speedier. Its great for working together like that (we all live in different states over here).

How it works is simple - download a torrent program - run said program - download the 'torrent' (the file that gives you the details) - torrent program starts downloading from the sources (users with file) - when finished it is compacted into its orig format - unzip/unpack with free software.

Now heres the part that's been mentioned - the USERS are the ones with the file...nothing with a torrent downloaded from a 'central' host other than the 'starting' file - the one that tells the torrent program where to connect, and that's normally stored on mulitple servers....

Modern torrent programs actually allow you to 'select' which files you want aswell, so sorry Andy - you can download individual files already. This is a problem for lots of industries unfortunetly. Personally, I don't see it as a threat to magic....the kids who collect this stuff (and that's the majority) don't really have time to read 101 books, its the braggin about how much 'stuff' I have...and appealing to their sense of right and wrong can (most of the time) be a complete waste of time.

Example - one kid who talked about his collection asked about a trick he saw. 'Thats in tarbell..vol 3' I say which gets the reply 'oh, ok, so hows it done, I don't read that much'......makes me wonder why he downloaded a huge list (2 a4 pages) of stuff....
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Aug 23, 2007 01:17AM)
I have no clue how to use a Torrent or really what it is but it IS scary how much free (stolen) stuff you can find out there! When I first got into coin magic I did a search for JB Bobo's bio and within 3 pages a simple point and click site revealed his MCM with click able index and all! I was shocked to say the least! *For the record I bought and paid for my own copy of the book!
Is there any way to somehow password protect the DVD's you sell or a non re-recordable disc? I'm pretty clueless in the ways of Internet and electronics etc. but I know with some software (although these kids seem to be able to crack anything) once you download it on your system, you can't load it on another computer. Just a thought and for the sake of you creators I hope something can be done! I personally am more than happy to put up what always seems to be very fair pricing for such awesome effects! Good luck in you fight and if I want one of your products I will gladly pay your asking price!
Mick
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Aug 23, 2007 03:19AM)
Thanks for the info - learned something new . . .

I wonder how many of the kids that are downloading the stuff into their computers would have bought the book/DVD/e-book, if it was not available on the net.

Andy
Message: Posted by: DoctorAmazo (Aug 23, 2007 08:26AM)
C'mon guys! How many of you have NEVER borrowed (or lent) a book, lecture notes, DVD, etc. from/to a magician buddy? Or bought/sold the same on eBay? Or in the "magic deal" section of THIS VERY SITE! Or shared a particular move you just learned with the guys at the magic club?

None of those things are illegal. But ALL deprive someone of potential sales/income, which seems to be the consistent factor when deciding what's "ethical" here! Any idea what the most unethical threat to the income of those who produce written work is? Public libraries! They let people read books FOR FREE (Gasp!)

How many of the "authors" here are solely responsible for ALL the concepts they write about and sell? If your hand is in the air right now, I'd suggest you are lying to yourself. Not much of what you write about is original to you. You stand on the shoulders of giants. If your hand isn't raised, then I think it's pretty hypocritical to whine about "rights" and "intellectual property".
Message: Posted by: Banester (Aug 23, 2007 03:13PM)
Ya Doc, those kids can even check out those library books and scan them for the internet. Some libraries have even gone onto the internet so you can read from the comfort of your home for a small fee.

[quote] Agree that is sounds awfully complex, but for the kids out there, it is a piece of cake.
[/quote]

I would have to agree that most of these kids are just downloading and putting it away in there CD folders. I was at a LAN get together and some of the younger kids were bragging about the newest movie they got or how they were watching one of the movies before it came out on the big screen.

I would agree that these kids would not be buying the items in question. How many of them do you think are performing? I think the movie and music industry have a lot more to worry about.

I have had manuels for work sent to me via e-mail and I print them out, reading a lot on the screen is something I really do not want to do. I also would not be printing out 300 pages of material. I think what Amazo said has more of a detrimental effect that the bit torrents.
Message: Posted by: ccccchunt (Aug 23, 2007 03:56PM)
I agree that it is a pain in the rear to spend hours reading on the computer screen. Although e-book format magic documents are readily available on the internet, I think the much bigger issue is the trading of full length movies on these Torrent sites. Many are available both as full "ISO" images or smaller ripped wmv/avi files. Last time I checked, the local library did not rent any of the newest 500 magic titles out on the market.

Chris
Message: Posted by: BlackShadow (Aug 23, 2007 04:53PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-23 02:17, MickeyPainless wrote:
I have no clue how to use a Torrent or really what it is but it IS scary how much free (stolen) stuff you can find out there! When I first got into coin magic I did a search for JB Bobo's bio and within 3 pages a simple point and click site revealed his MCM with click able index and all! I was shocked to say the least! *For the record I bought and paid for my own copy of the book!
[/quote]

Bobo's MCM is now public domain (Copyright expires after a set time). You can get legal copies, for example, on the Learned Pig. There's a view in magic that it's not right to obtain anything, unless you pay, but there is plenty of legal public domain stuff to be had, free of charge. A lot of Hugard stuff is PD, so is Houdini, Downs, Hoffman etc etc etc.
Message: Posted by: bugjack (Aug 23, 2007 06:13PM)
Mickey, you may have paid for your copies of Bobo's, but not one cent of that payment went to the long deceased Mr. Bobo or any of his heirs... nor to any of the coin magic greats who created the foundations of the routines. It just went to the retailer, the wholesaler and, finally, the publisher who simply laid out and printed the public domain text. Not sure how this financial chain of events is any more ethically grounded than legallly downloading a free p.d. copy.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Aug 23, 2007 07:58PM)
Agree that there is a bug difference between sharing material that is no longer copyright protected and that is still protected by law.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Feb 21, 2008 09:13AM)
Iv wondered why this is never talked about. maybe some of the older folks are just unaware there are five or six major magic sharing torrent "communitys" I know of. any single one of them has three thousand plus dvd, and books for download.

I started looking for this a few weeks back when a guy was in the local magic shop and wanted to see a few things. to make a long story short he got on one of those torrent sites and got some videos. he won;t be buying from the shop anytime soon he got it all free.

I'm not sure of the long term effects but it bothers me when magic "secrets" are now common knowledge
Message: Posted by: C. Loubard (Feb 22, 2008 02:24PM)
Doctor

it iis illegal if the product being downloaded is still in copyright.

Why? once you download it to your harddrive it is now a copy of the original which is illegal. furthermore, what you download I am sure is a copy of a copy of a copy, which is illegal.
Message: Posted by: Banester (Feb 22, 2008 03:35PM)
Loubard, the difference is that the poster is more than likely not providing the whole file/files. If you need 40 files to create the original DVD then he/she may post 39 of them with the intent that someone else will provide that last file. So in essence he is not providing the DVD material since it can not be run in the form he posted it, that is until you get that last one to combine it.

Someone also stated about creating a password or some type of copy blocker on a DVD. Most publishers attempt to do that; however, hackers will come out with a "fix" within days in order to copy or rip it. There are also alot, a lot of valid programs out there that are designed to "back-up" your DVD's or CD's. Blue ray and HD DVD are already being copied, so it is really something that is not prudent.

For some of you guys that have published work out there, here is something you can do. Put up bad files related to your own works, when someone downloads the bad file the whole copy will be useless. After some time there will be enough bad files out there to discourage people from attempting to download it. Just so you know, there are major companies doing this now (HBO, MGM, Disney to name a few).

Joshua, if someone does have a copyright on any of those items they can contact the service provider with a cease and disset order. BitTorrent does not offer its users anonymity!
Message: Posted by: silverking (Feb 23, 2008 10:12AM)
Within Banesters post is contained the only current solution that works for creators of pirated material. (my own experience is related to music, but the same goes here for magic DVD's and other related works).
It requires the original creators to go on the offensive.

To elaborate on Banesters informative post,

You generate multiple damaged files which DUPLICATE the actual files that are copies of your work and which live out in Torrent land.
You then "seed" your damaged copies out in vast numbers, and make them available 24 hours a day (by leaving your computer turned on, and your Bit Torrent program booted and active).

If actively pursued for long enough, your damaged files could eventually outnumber the "good" files, and folks will never be able to re-construct the original "good" file.
When word gets out about this, (which it does) amongst those who download this stuff in quantity....they will begin to see it's a waste of time to download anything related to your product due to the high percentage of damaged files.

If you're a creator, and you can't make sense of this post, then hire somebody who can, and go out and protect your work.
Filesharing is here, it's not going away anytime soon......those who are proactive about protecting their material wherever it's being bootlegged are the only ones with a hope of success in reducing pirate versions of their material.

That it's wrong, and unfair is obvious......but talking about it results in nothing at all....only beating the pirates at their own game works.

Seeding damaged copies of your OWN work really does work.

( there are geeks who do this for a tidy profit in the music business. They offer a service to musicians and record labels to seed identical (but damaged) versions of music files already circulating the net. The really crafty perfectly match the file size of the damaged file to the "straight" file. Once this is done, the beginning of the end is under way, the pirates have no way to identify the good file from the bad file.)
Message: Posted by: Jim Hazen (Feb 28, 2008 01:37PM)
Just to interject from a legal standpoint on p2p downloads. oh and for the record I buy my magic!!

It IS ILLEGAL to post copyrighted material on a torrent site.
It is LEGAL to download said copyrighted material
Once material is downloaded its is ILLEGAL to seed it.
Message: Posted by: Cheety (Jul 3, 2008 09:23AM)
Just to add to this there are torrent sites that are purely dedicated to magic. every dvd released by illusionist can be downloaded from torrents and even other clients such as usenext/limerwire. you can also download e-books, most of the L&L videos.
Message: Posted by: Ling.Ling1337 (Jul 3, 2008 08:32PM)
OK, I'd like to give my input, being very knowledgeable about such things:

1. Files are not at all hosted on the bittorent sites. If you contact a bittorrent site saying "Take down my eBook! Take down my DVD!" They will shrug and say "We host the .torrent, the users host the .PDF or .AVI" They have a basically bulletproof defense. Thepiratebay.org has quite literally told HUGE-time lawyers (top representatives of Time Warner, etc) to f*** off, F*** a tree, all other manner of obscenities and insults, simply because they are invincible.

2. The leviathan concept: Let's say that you hacked into the Pirate Bay's servers, because you are a computer genius (by the way, government's top tech guys have tried, it's not possible) and you destroyed their server. Guess what? They have servers all around the globe. And either to spite the industry or legitimately to take it's place, another site (either from the Pirate Bay guys or another host site) will pop up and be hugely publicized among the pirate community. In fact, the RIAA or MPAA, I can't remember, set up a trap site with legitimate files and did everything in it's power to publicize it, and word got out- that it was a trap site. A smart hacker had looked at the code for the site from the inside and saw that it collected IP addresses, and was hosted at an IP trackable to the RIAA/MPAA. It was taken down within a week of release.

3. Beyond torrents. Torrents are for now the number one means of obtaining files illegaly. It is totally community driven, and it's driven by a community of the some of the top minds in their field- the hackers/nerds/scripters, whatever. They are the ones who could find out where you live and your phone number, only if they received an email from you. Yes, they are real. No, they are not the typical propagandistic (is that word? lol) rapists/murders/stalkers/people who want to blow up your house/the Pentagon, they are simply wizards with a terminal. And even if you went to every torrent server in the world and burned them all down, the community would create a new, better medium or move on to a different, already exisiting one before you could fly home.

Whew! That was a long post- but trust me, this information is legitimate.
Message: Posted by: Tim Jahn (Jul 12, 2008 01:26PM)
I just checked all of this out for myself. I really can't believe what I saw. I found "Surfaced" on one of these sites!! Surfaced man!!! This freaking thing just came out a few days ago. WTF!!

Tim
Message: Posted by: mattisdx (Jul 12, 2008 03:57PM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-08 11:37, ScottRSullivan wrote:
Is it ethical (or even legal) to walk by a store being robbed, look in for a minute, and then just keep walking without calling 911?

A friend makes an illegal copy of a movie ticket. Is it right to use the ticket?

A friend makes an illegal copy of a movie DVD. Is it right to watch that?

I think the answer to all three is the same and is pretty cut and dry.
[/quote]

You can live by the rules and die like a slave, or take a risk and have some fun
Message: Posted by: Hushai (Jul 25, 2008 01:53AM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-23 02:17, MickeyPainless wrote:
I have no clue how to use a Torrent or really what it is... [/quote]

Thank you, MickeyPainless, for admitting that! I don't know either. :) what IS a "Torrent?" This is a new one on me.
Message: Posted by: pentiumxp4000 (Aug 3, 2008 11:03PM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-25 02:53, Hushai wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-08-23 02:17, MickeyPainless wrote:
I have no clue how to use a Torrent or really what it is... [/quote]

Thank you, MickeyPainless, for admitting that! I don't know either. :) what IS a "Torrent?" This is a new one on me.
[/quote]

A torrent file, basically, is a file that allows your computer to track other computers on the internet that is "seeding", which here means "is currently sharing the file on the internet", the particular file that you want to download. With this, it means that whichever website you download the torrent file from is NOT sharing the file itself, which is what causes so many people so much trouble.