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Topic: "Free Will of Order by Jimmy Fingers" or "Original Freewill by Deddy"
Message: Posted by: Riemann_Zeta (Jul 15, 2007 06:20PM)
"Free Will of Order by Jimmy Fingers" or "Original Freewill by Deddy"

Just saw a demo of original freewill by Deddy and read the 5 or 6 pages of posts. I think I understand the basic idea but would like to purchase the complete routine. How much of an improvement is Jimmy Finger's routine over the original freewill?

I also checked out a few posts about Greg Arce's "Scorched" using equivoque, this looks pretty cool as well. Any thoughts?

Best Regards,
RZ
Message: Posted by: asanghi (Jul 17, 2007 01:17PM)
RZ: You can't go wrong with Jimmy's FWOO. While the original is great as well, Jimmy's version makes it completely impromptu, and he has added some very nice touches to the routine.

Greg Arce's Scorched routine is also very good, and even better (in my opinion) is the routine after Scorched that follows in his book "Deep Thoughts". There's a very clever bit by Greg that fixes the weakest outcome inherent in equivoque.

Hope this helps,
Apurva Sanghi
Message: Posted by: Riemann_Zeta (Jul 17, 2007 02:48PM)
Thanks Apurva! This is exactly the type of input I was looking for. Gonna get FWOO today and look into Arce's deep thoughts e-book. There are quite a few threads on these.

-RZ
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jul 17, 2007 03:49PM)
I like the original :)
Message: Posted by: Riemann_Zeta (Jul 18, 2007 12:30AM)
Hey Slim, why do you prefer the original? Pros/cons?
I'll end up getting both, but really want an impromptu method.
Thanks.

-RZ
Message: Posted by: mesmer (Jul 18, 2007 01:38AM)
Do your self a favour....buy both and study both....since the creator must had a logical reason of why they create theirs like that....
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jul 18, 2007 08:35AM)
Get the original and then THINK for an hour or so.....You'll get it :)
Message: Posted by: John C (Jul 18, 2007 09:17AM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-18 01:30, Riemann_Zeta wrote:
Hey Slim, why do you prefer the original? Pros/cons?
I'll end up getting both, but really want an impromptu method.
Thanks.

-RZ
[/quote]

The original IS an impromptu method.

John
Message: Posted by: mindgames (Jul 18, 2007 12:27PM)
Ameen
Message: Posted by: asanghi (Jul 18, 2007 12:50PM)
John:

The original comes with certain props so if you perform the original *strictly as is* you'd require those props.

Jimmy's routine replaces those props with everyday objects + adds all those nice subtleties.

But I agree with Slim that if you are going to venture into this effect then it is worth getting both versions - can't go wrong either way...

Best regards,
Apurva Sanghi
Message: Posted by: John C (Jul 18, 2007 12:55PM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-18 13:50, asanghi wrote:
John:

The original comes with certain props so if you perform the original *strictly as is* you'd require those props.

Jimmy's routine replaces those props with everyday objects + adds all those nice subtleties.

But I agree with Slim that if you are going to venture into this effect then it is worth getting both versions - can't go wrong either way...

Best regards,
Apurva Sanghi
[/quote]

Yea, but you don't need those props. And like Slim typed ... get the original and you'll see. It's not SPECIFIC to THOSE props. I like the fingers thing too I have both.

John
Message: Posted by: Riemann_Zeta (Jul 18, 2007 01:09PM)
Cool. Thanks guys! Looking forward to getting effect and principle down.

-RZ
Message: Posted by: mindgames (Jul 19, 2007 07:12AM)
Get my original free will. pm me with a proof of purchace and I will sent you my pet routine using the free will concept.
Message: Posted by: Julian Kestrel (Jul 19, 2007 07:52AM)
Deddy's version has not been improvd upon by fingers.
Message: Posted by: Waters (Jul 19, 2007 08:08AM)
I am sure both are great!

I have really enjoyed the Fingers' routine. It really is a great impromptu effect. With proper "sell" it's a great routine for those moments when someone says "show me something"! I usually do.

This type of effect does not come across "procedural" and it really plays well. I highly recommend it.


Thanks,
Sean
Message: Posted by: magic4545 (Aug 21, 2007 07:44AM)
Free Will of Order shown at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yItSmqhxWRM

Thanks,

Jimmy
Message: Posted by: Jordan Waller (Aug 21, 2007 12:19PM)
I watched the video.

Personally.

I can't really see what is that different about your version and Deddy's original.

Sorry.
Message: Posted by: mindcontroller (Aug 21, 2007 12:51PM)
My versions better, and although I don't like Mr Corbuzier theft of Max's performing character, I wouldnt dream of marketing my version without asking Mr Corbuzier first.... as it really is a great routine.
Message: Posted by: Jim-Callahan (Aug 21, 2007 01:36PM)
I never thought the guy was like Max.
(Did you watch his clips)

J ack

H.o.A-X
Message: Posted by: Skitch (Aug 22, 2007 02:40AM)
Where can I read about or purchase both effects?
Message: Posted by: magic4545 (Aug 22, 2007 09:49AM)
Standingbetweenobjects.com

If you can't tell the difference between the original FW and FWOO from looking at the video, then that's a good thing.

The other possible revelations are very different, but dead on.

Ask people who have used both. Even Deddy has commented very positively on the difference and the improvements. That's why he's been happy to endorse mine.

Anyone familiar with my work knows that I wouldn't just lift someone else's technique or method and resell it as my own. I've got way too much pride and game for that.

If this wasn't a considerable upgrade or departure from the original Free Will, I wouldn't have even tried to market it.

JF
Message: Posted by: mindgames (Aug 22, 2007 11:26AM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-21 14:36, Jim-Callahan wrote:
I never thought the guy was like Max.
(Did you watch his clips)

J ack

H.o.A-X
[/quote]
maybe you watch the wrong clip. try youtube and search my name..
I say this before others say it first... (and I admit that my looks is just like max... fact I'm his fans when I was younger, but that another case, and if you guys like to discuss it, please start a new topic and I believe that topics is already here somewhere...)

as for free will, I recall that there more than 10 effects marketed by using my theory of free will.
some of them ask my permission and some of them don't even care to ask. which is totally ok for me.
here are some marketed items that I remember:


- wayne dobsons in his wd 40 book
- borodin fate at final curtain
- dark museum prediction
- freewill of order
- tomatto, apple and banana
- eye of horus

some of them are really good and some of them are just bad in my taste.
jimmy did ask me a permission before he marketed his free will of order, and yes, I say it was good alternative to do my free will.
I also give a my own personal handling of my own freewill that's not in the instruction for free for people who can show a proof of purchasing.

as for the vid that jimmy put in the youtube, I believe it was wrong, since it can tip his own method for people who already have my free will or infact for those who don't.

if you guys like my freewill, I believe elmwood will have my "nocturnal booktest" late in this year for sale.
Message: Posted by: magic4545 (Aug 22, 2007 06:27PM)
Hi Deddy and everyone,

Mindgames is Deddy, the originator of the concept, and I'm Jimmy Fingers, the originator of Free Will of Order (FWOO) the effect that uses part of the Free Will concept.

Without the original Free Will concept, my FWOO would not be possible, or, at least, not as clean or attainable. That being said, I've added all kinds of subtleties and direct ambiguities that have, in my opinion, brought FW to another level. But, obviously, that's only my opinion. Well, and the opinions of a LOT of other people who have bought it. I haven't had any complaints about the purchases, and I haven't had anyone who has bought it not agree that it's an improvement. Maybe I'm missing something. At the time that he evaluated FWOO, even Deddy considered the improvements to be substantial and valuable.

The video that I've provided was more for the Phenomenon casting producers, and I can take it down at any time. I just don't feel that it's giving away much of anything except for the revelation at the end. Since the methods for getting to that are so layered and subtle, I don't feel that anyone could reverse engineer the effect after seeing the video or after owning the original Free Will.

The other thing is that I've shown this to people dozens of times... the same people, and they STILL don't have a clue how it works. Even after frequent repetition. I'm not saying to repeat it on the same day... but just realize that the method is so bulletproof that it will stand up to the same group's 2nd event that year, at least.

If Deddy insists that the video compromises the integrity of the original, then I will remove the video. But, I would really like to see some more logical explanation of how it is being compromised.

If anyone else has purchased either Free Will and/or FWOO, and you feel that the video compromises the method or technique, please contact me. Please don't expose the methods here, but feel free to contact me. I want to be open to being wrong on this.

As for my method, I don't feel that it is compromising the effect. Any more than attending my show and seeing it performed once.

By the way, the video was shot ONCE, no reshoots, no edits, and the revelation was the weakest of the possible revelations. This was good, because it didn't give away too much. The bad thing is, I've shown the weakest revelation, and it looks more like the original Free Will than the other revelations that are possible.

Nothing against the original Free Will. But, most who have both will tell you that there is a positive evolution to the FWOO. And, most who have both are using all of the elements of the FWOO. At least, that is the feedback that I am getting.

Please understand, I am standing on the shoulders of giants, and I want to remain respectful and gracious to them.

That being said, others have claimed that the concept of ambiguity that is central to Deddy's Free Will was actually pre-existing, but I'm not going to go there. The place that I saw this centrally prominent ambiguity was in Deddy's Free Will, and I'm going to stay with my crediting him until someone comes forward and provides extremely clear, credible sources.

If anyone can figure my workings out by using the video, chances are, they aren't figuring out my method, but they're devising their own.

I feel really good about Free Will of Order, and I use it constantly, without hesitation, for groups everywhere I go. I even get requests for it, by name. Wow!

Thanks again to Deddy for sharing a masterful piece of mentalism that inspires us all,

Jimmy Fingers
http://www.jimmyfingers.com
Message: Posted by: mindgames (Aug 22, 2007 08:33PM)
My pleasure my friend...
Message: Posted by: gabelson (Aug 23, 2007 12:20AM)
Like Slim, I don't think you can beat the original. Free Will of Order IS great for those totally impromptu moments, but the psychological "finality" of the bag in Free Will combined with very low-tech props, really sells the "no free choice" idea, and defines elegant simplicity.
Message: Posted by: mindcontroller (Aug 23, 2007 09:18PM)
Maybe not performing style but he has taken Max's complete physical appearance, same makeup, hair including long braided ponytail etc which has been discussed at length as he says before!

He's not the only one however, there are another 3 :)


[quote]
On 2007-08-21 14:36, Jim-Callahan wrote:
I never thought the guy was like Max.
(Did you watch his clips)

J ack

H.o.A-X
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Roki (Aug 27, 2007 07:13AM)
I loved the free will effect but the pure concept was not original . The specific application was original and that made it so useful . I think Jimmys application was also an original application and he deserves great credit for one of the most useful tricks I have seen in ages . I think it is useful as so many amateurs like myself love the totally imromptu gimmickless effect . For me it is the holy grail of effects.
That said Deddys application was a big step and I admire his openness in letting others have their versions . I don't think you can patent thinking at the end of the day .
I have to say to Fingers I have only seen the youtube vid and having Free will I can now perform his effect so unless he is going to make explicit what the extra subtleties are he may lose out by having the vid up .
Message: Posted by: mindgames (Aug 27, 2007 09:40AM)
That's what I mean...
Message: Posted by: magic4545 (Aug 28, 2007 09:19AM)
I'm guessing that you may have been able to adapt to having something that looks like that revelation in the video, but the subtleties and technique to do mine on the other revelations is not evident in the video. There are some physical thresholds and subtleties that are taught in the manuscript that you will run into problems with if you're not aware of them. I did quite a bit of problem solving, 'bulldogging' on this one, and I had a lot of help with trial and error.

JF
Message: Posted by: Parson Smith (Aug 28, 2007 11:40AM)
I like Jimmy's version.
I am not certain that it is any more impromptu than FW, but there are some bits and pieces of Jimmy's that give it an added bit of strength.

This is the beauty of the original FW. It is a guide... not a script.
Everything we do needs to be personalized. JF has given another example of how we can take an idea and turn it into something new and beautiful.
Hats off to both of these creators.

Peace,
Parson
Message: Posted by: Roki (Aug 28, 2007 08:32PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-28 10:19, magic4545 wrote:
I'm guessing that you may have been able to adapt to having something that looks like that revelation in the video, but the subtleties and technique to do mine on the other revelations is not evident in the video. There are some physical thresholds and subtleties that are taught in the manuscript that you will run into problems with if you're not aware of them. I did quite a bit of problem solving, 'bulldogging' on this one, and I had a lot of help with trial and error.
JF
[/quote]

I have now performed Jimmys type of effect with all possible choices and haven't encountred any problems that were not solved by my knowledge of "Free Will ".
If you have other revelations that are even better than the one on the video I think it would be worth you posting those on youtube or advertising them .
I have just used the "Free Will " revelation of the read prediction for each scenario.
Jimmys is a great version and now I have seen it I cant figure why I didn't figure it out as I have always wanted such a truly impromptu gimmickless version.
I only miss the bit in Free will where you don't ( appear ) to know which is which object during the choices .I think that's what stopped me thinking of random objects.
Message: Posted by: magic4545 (Nov 18, 2014 04:04PM)
The new website

www.jimmyfingers.com/miracles.html
Message: Posted by: david.koontz (Apr 11, 2019 10:47PM)
I own both, and for me Jimmy's version works much better. I like to perform impromptu and that's something you can't really do with the original. So for me, Jimmy's improvements are very significant. If you think nice props and the physicality of the original play better with your audience then I can see preferring it, but for me there's no comparison.
Message: Posted by: John C (Apr 12, 2019 06:21AM)
[quote]On Nov 18, 2014, magic4545 wrote:
The new website

www.jimmyfingers.com/miracles.html [/quote]
Must now be the old website. Page not found.
Message: Posted by: teenagelabotomy42 (Apr 18, 2019 11:09PM)
Andy has a cool presentation for free will on his blog