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Topic: Joshua Jay's Comments in the August Issue
Message: Posted by: Fastlife (Jul 31, 2007 09:44PM)
What does everybody think about Joshua Jay's comments about Jamy Ian Swiss in his August column?
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Jul 31, 2007 09:55PM)
Will have to wait till my issue arrives! Now you have me curious.

RevJohn
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Jul 31, 2007 10:26PM)
I love Joshua's work, but in this case I would have to agree with Jamy, especially when taking into account the bit about "the perception of the deck's otherwise presumed ordinariness." Most laymen have never seen or heard of a card clip. Foreign items do, in fact, diminish the sense of the ordinary, just as an unfamiliar card back (or front) may arouse suspicion. I really enjoyed Jamy's article, and although I was not 100% in agreement with all of it, this particular statement rang true with me.
Message: Posted by: Kaylan (Aug 1, 2007 07:07AM)
I tried to check out the effect, to see just how the card clip was utilized in the effect, but it does not appear in the December 2005 issue of Magic as Joshua stated it did. I checked the Nov. 2005, Dec. 2004 and December 2006 issues - not there either and I'm done searching for now - anyone know where someone can REALLY find this effect??

Kaylan
Message: Posted by: chr!s (Aug 3, 2007 09:03AM)
Magiguy,i have to disagree with you.
joshua jays argument was not that the card clip should be considered an ordinary object,simply that a layperson would appreciate that this is a professional,rather than a 'guy who can do a few tricks'.
and as for your view that an unusual back design of a card will diminish its otherwise innocence,again I must disagree.im in the uk,where not only are bridge sized cards the norm,the vast majority of laypeople have never even heard of bicycle brand cards before.i still use poker sized bikes,on a professional basis,and have never been asked if the cards are 'unusual'.
I appreciate mr swiss' view aswell,i admit,but I have to agree with josh on this.

chr!s
Message: Posted by: magico (Aug 3, 2007 09:12PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-01 08:07, Kaylan wrote:
I tried to check out the effect, to see just how the card clip was utilized in the effect, but it does not appear in the December 2005 issue of Magic as Joshua stated it did. I checked the Nov. 2005, Dec. 2004 and December 2006 issues - not there either and I'm done searching for now - anyone know where someone can REALLY find this effect??

Kaylan
[/quote]

Try the August 2005 issue
Message: Posted by: Kaylan (Aug 4, 2007 06:37AM)
Thanks, magico, but the effect was not in there, either. That issue had two Jeff Pierce tricks, but they involved lighters and rubber bands.

I'll just have to check all my issues for the past few years I guess. Thanks, Josh! :)

Kaylan
Message: Posted by: magico (Aug 4, 2007 06:10PM)
I figure it might be in there since the year 2005 was mention and when I did a search on Magic Magazine it came up with Jeff's name under three issue the other ones were I believe 2003
Message: Posted by: ASW (Aug 8, 2007 06:28AM)
[quote]
On 2007-07-31 23:26, Magiguy wrote:
I love Joshua's work, but in this case I would have to agree with Jamy, especially when taking into account the bit about "the perception of the deck's otherwise presumed ordinariness." Most laymen have never seen or heard of a card clip. Foreign items do, in fact, diminish the sense of the ordinary, just as an unfamiliar card back (or front) may arouse suspicion. I really enjoyed Jamy's article, and although I was not 100% in agreement with all of it, this particular statement rang true with me.
[/quote]

Layman: "What's that?"

Magician: "I use it to keep my cards in casino condition."

Layman: "Okay."

I think the "problem" only exists when a magician uses a card clip but the performer doesn't fit the image of someone who would have a discrete black anodized clip, or any other distinguished personal item for the discerning gentleman. Similarly, Swiss might be uncomfortable carrying a Mont Blanc pen, or wearing a Breitling Navitimer or a pair of Church's handmade shoes.
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Aug 11, 2007 09:14AM)
Good point, ASW.
Message: Posted by: Holtzclaw (Aug 11, 2007 10:11AM)
Casino cards are not kept in a "clip" to keep them in new condition. They are kept in a stack, sometimes in a cardboard box. The card clip is an accessory only used by magicians. Not gamblers, not card cheats. You are making the mistake in thinking that because the clip is exotic, it is therefore elegant and beautiful to the spectator. You might as well have a signed card appear under your PK magnet.
The spectator cannot have a comfortable place to go for an answer. If there is something exotic attached to those cards, that's where they can go.

By the way, Jamy carries a Mont Blanc pen. He values quality and elegance in all aspects of dress and accessory.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Aug 13, 2007 04:47PM)
A layman won't know that and the explanation suits. It's all about plausibility. A Porper clip is an elegant item that raises no alarm bells. To think otherwise is over-extending your imagination and making incorrect assumptions about the way laypeople think. If Swiss uses a Mont Blanc then surely he must be able to make the leap - as laymen do - that the card clip serves an OBVIOUS and NON-SUSPICIOUS purpose. At least to any reasonably sensible layman - but perhapos not to some overly neurotic cardmen.

I think the essential point that Swiss is probably making (I haven't read any of the articles but I think I get the gist here) is valid: don't use anything that looks like a stupid magician's prop unless you're okay with audiences thinking you're the kind of person who uses stupid magician's props.

Besides, what's a PK magnet?
Message: Posted by: JTW (Aug 14, 2007 09:48AM)
I remember the first time I saw a person carry cigarettes in a metal case. At first I didn't know what it was for then I saw the cigs. Seemed to me to be a very elegant way of carrying ones vice.
Message: Posted by: Silly Walter the Polar Bear (Aug 15, 2007 05:01PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-11 11:11, Holtzclaw wrote:
Casino cards are not kept in a "clip" to keep them in new condition. They are kept in a stack, sometimes in a cardboard box. The card clip is an accessory only used by magicians. Not gamblers, not card cheats. You are making the mistake in thinking that because the clip is exotic, it is therefore elegant and beautiful to the spectator. You might as well have a signed card appear under your PK magnet.
The spectator cannot have a comfortable place to go for an answer. If there is something exotic attached to those cards, that's where they can go.

By the way, Jamy carries a Mont Blanc pen. He values quality and elegance in all aspects of dress and accessory.
[/quote]

You might as well have written "I don't perform magic for lay people so I am just going to prattle on to appear intelligent".
Message: Posted by: Holtzclaw (Aug 15, 2007 08:22PM)
Wow. My intelligence was just put into question by someone named Silly Walter the Polar Bear. I perform for lay people as my sole living. Try entertaining adults sometime.

I am immediately reminded why I never visit. It's like talking to a big green wall.
Message: Posted by: cheesewrestler (Aug 16, 2007 09:52AM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-15 21:22, Holtzclaw wrote:
Wow. My intelligence was just put into question by someone named Silly Walter the Polar Bear. I perform for lay people as my sole living. Try entertaining adults sometime.

I am immediately reminded why I never visit. It's like talking to a big green wall.
[/quote]

polar bears are highly intelligent.


AND they are often sighted swimming far out at sea, miles away from the nearest land.


can YOU say the same?
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Aug 16, 2007 01:50PM)
The funny part about this was that when I have used a card clip, the only time that someone has questioned its presence was accusing me of using it as a shiner -- in an ambitious card routine.

So for them, it made sense for it to be there but as a cheating tool (which in the end made no sense at all).

My question is this, and an honest question... Who has pulled out a card clip and had someone question why it was there? Curious is all.

RevJohn

P.S. Yes, my issue finally was delivered after the mailman read this month's reviews.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Aug 17, 2007 12:07AM)
I wonder if most laymen have the pre-conceived notion that magicians are clueless, social misfits that like to show off. They love their cards and love keeping them in pretty clips.

If so, should we leave our card clips at home and skip the kool kards?
Message: Posted by: Silly Walter the Polar Bear (Aug 17, 2007 09:34AM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-16 10:52, cheesewrestler wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-08-15 21:22, Holtzclaw wrote:
Wow. My intelligence was just put into question by someone named Silly Walter the Polar Bear. I perform for lay people as my sole living. Try entertaining adults sometime.

I am immediately reminded why I never visit. It's like talking to a big green wall.
[/quote]

polar bears are highly intelligent.


AND they are often sighted swimming far out at sea, miles away from the nearest land.


can YOU say the same?
[/quote]

Uhhh. OK.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 17, 2007 12:01PM)
Dude... if you're going to take out some fey coin purse and not expect to get snaps you may as well take out other fetish items as well.
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Aug 17, 2007 03:54PM)
Coin BAG, Jonathan... Coin BAG...
Message: Posted by: ASW (Aug 17, 2007 04:26PM)
I think it's always best to stand in the shoes of the layman:

Card clip: obvious reason for its existence, non-suspicious and gender neutral.

Coin purse: obvious use but incongruous for some men, less so for most woman.
Message: Posted by: cheesewrestler (Aug 19, 2007 02:25PM)
.... and to be serious for just a moment:

what the heck kind of a nerdazoid would carry cards around in a special clip "to keep them in casino condition"?

it's a deck of cards fer the luvva mike. $1.25 at the convenience store.

I'm just sayin'. layperson's likeliest reaction. no offense to ursidae intended ....

oh, and a coin purse? OK if you're a New England hill farmer who drives a Model A with "Welcome Admiral Dewey Hero Of Manila" painted in shakey white letters on the back. Otherwise, no.
Message: Posted by: doiron (Aug 20, 2007 02:21AM)
I've never had a spectator question the use of a card clip. Some have commented on it but, so far, everyone's statements have been in the order of "That's pretty neat." or some such. Of course I've only had my clip for six or seven years so maybe next week . . .

Two friends of mine use clips and I can't recall either of them mentioning any unusual looks or behind-the-back whispering.

And the price of a new deck is not the question. It's the maintaining of the deck in good condition while you're using it.

At any rate, I truly believe most lay people don't care about an awful lot of the stuff we think they would. Or to be more exact, the things we used to think they would. Unless the item in question is amazingly peculiar they don't care what kind of decks, marking pens, close-up cases, wallets, etc. we use. Our job is to keep them focused on us and our ability to entertain.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go and clean my dragon-decorated production box.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 24, 2007 09:25PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-17 13:01, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Dude... if you're going to take out some fey coin purse and not expect to get snaps you may as well take out other fetish items as well.
[/quote]
Thank goodness, you've broken the silence on this. I thought I was the only one that got creeped out by all those cigars coming out of coin purses. What the heck is that supposed to be??? How did those purses stay in working magicians' repertoires for so long? I don't ever think I saw a man use them in real life, and I don't know of any woman under the age of 75 that uses one now. Very strange to me. Much weirder than the card clip which at least is exotic enough to be explained away.

Jack Shalom
Message: Posted by: ASW (Aug 25, 2007 12:18AM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-19 15:25, cheesewrestler wrote:
.... and to be serious for just a moment:

what the heck kind of a nerdazoid would carry cards around in a special clip "to keep them in casino condition"?

it's a deck of cards fer the luvva mike. $1.25 at the convenience store.

I'm just sayin'. layperson's likeliest reaction.[/quote]

I've used them for years and so have many others. I've never heard that reaction and nobody else I know has ever experienced it. So how could it be the "likeliest" reaction?

If your fear is that people will think you are the kind of person who has more than a buck and a quarter to spend on any one day then maybe your concerns are right. I'll stick to the corporate magic market and you can work the circuit where the magician wears bib and brace overalls over threadbare longjohns, smokes a corn cob pipe and uses ten year old playing cards with clowns on the back.
Message: Posted by: Eric Leclerc (Aug 26, 2007 02:50AM)
As a magician, it is our job to help dismiss every question/suspicion our spectators may have about ANY of our props/uncommon object before they even become a concern in their minds.

A simple statement like, ''I carry cards on me all the time, this case helps me keep them in the shape I prefer, its pretty isn't it???''

Is the same thing as saying

''look this is a real deck, they are all different, I just bought it at Wal Mart''

I cant even see a card worker taking out his cards from his shiny clip and not mentioning anything about it. THAT would be weird..

On the other hand if you use it as the method to your trick, you don't want to mention anything about it...That would be bad......

Let's face it this is a trick some magician said ''THATS COOL.. to the other at a jam session. Then they fooled their other magic friends who arrived later with it because a card clip is so common to be sitting on a table amongst magicians.

WHY WHY WHY would you need a shiner in the real world, for REAL people as a METHOD TO OBTAIN THE IDENTITY OF A CARD!!!!!!???? WHY??

someone have a good answer??
Message: Posted by: doiron (Aug 26, 2007 02:53PM)
Many roads lead to Rome and many methods lead to good effects.

If you do a lot of peeks, you would naturally want several different methods to accomplish it so as not to tip what you're doing.

It's the same thing as using several different moves in an ambitious card routine. It's the smart thing to do and it's the kind of advice you find in books by Hay and Hugard and Wilson and . . .

It's great to have a few varieties of weapons in the arsenal.
Message: Posted by: cheesewrestler (Aug 26, 2007 04:55PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-25 01:18, ASW wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-08-19 15:25, cheesewrestler wrote:
.... and to be serious for just a moment:

what the heck kind of a nerdazoid would carry cards around in a special clip "to keep them in casino condition"?

it's a deck of cards fer the luvva mike. $1.25 at the convenience store.

I'm just sayin'. layperson's likeliest reaction.[/quote]

I've used them for years and so have many others. I've never heard that reaction and nobody else I know has ever experienced it. So how could it be the "likeliest" reaction?

If your fear is that people will think you are the kind of person who has more than a buck and a quarter to spend on any one day then maybe your concerns are right. I'll stick to the corporate magic market and you can work the circuit where the magician wears bib and brace overalls over threadbare longjohns, smokes a corn cob pipe and uses ten year old playing cards with clowns on the back.
[/quote]


LOL
Message: Posted by: Jeff (Aug 30, 2007 07:36AM)
Mr. Swiss is entitled to his opinion, and I say that being the person who's trick he mentioned in the article. Joshua was kind enough to stand up for me and I appreciate it.
For what it's worth I will say that I've seen footage of Rene Levand using a metal card case protector during his act.

Jeff Pierce
Message: Posted by: ASW (Aug 30, 2007 04:18PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-30 08:36, Jeff wrote:
Mr. Swiss is entitled to his opinion, and I say that being the person who's trick he mentioned in the article.
[/quote]

Yes, and we're entitled to discuss his opinion.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Aug 30, 2007 04:43PM)
Interesting side fact. Was out antiquing a few months ago and ran across a novel item. A very ornate, clearly old, silver case for carrying playing cards. The proprietor said it was from the riverboat gambler days and he had never seen anything like it. He had tons of silver items up to probably 200 years old or more. This case was the only one he had ever run across.

So there appears to be a likely history for "card clips" as foreign as they may be in modern society.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Aug 31, 2007 04:40AM)
Did you buy it? Tell me you bought it.
Message: Posted by: wa-na-be (Aug 31, 2007 12:09PM)
Personally I don't think it really matters. When we go up to a table and tell them that we are a magician they are already expecting something different. I've always said that I make my living with cards so I keep the in the case...cause I don't make enough to buy new ones! I have never had anyone question me about the clip except to say "Hey that's cool" or "where can I get one of those".

Just my 2 cents worth

Chris
Message: Posted by: delgadil (Sep 4, 2007 03:16PM)
I, for one, totally agreed with Joshua's comments. It's easy to explain what a card clip is for -- there's nothing wrong for us to take pride in keeping our props in good condition. Nobody has ever given me a hard time about using a card clip, some folks are curious about it but after I explain what it's for, it's no longer a topic of interest.


Kevin
Message: Posted by: cheesewrestler (Sep 6, 2007 09:51AM)
Obviously everyone needs to use a card clip to keep their cards in good condition.

But how do you keep the card clip in good condition?

I don't want to seem blatantly commercial, but BUY BUY BUY New and Improved Cheesewrestler Card Clip Cleansing Creme!!!!!
It shines, it polishes, it nourishes ... and it's only $19.99 per oz. to Magic Café members!!!!!! (limited time offer)

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!!!!!!

Sure, you've polished your card clip to professional standards .... but how do you protect it from the (formerly!) inevitable scrapes nicks dents and bruises?

With the Cheesewrestler Ultimate Delta Force Stealth Card Clip Caddy, of course!!! Hand knit from pure alpaca by David Berglas' grandmother, these fine knit items aren't only essential protection for the clip that protects your cards, they're a piece of magic history! Only $99.99 to Magic Café members! (Limited time offer)
Message: Posted by: Eric Leclerc (Sep 15, 2007 12:03PM)
Was that for real?
Message: Posted by: ASW (Sep 24, 2007 05:13AM)
Yes, that was a real attempt at humour.
Message: Posted by: shek (Sep 26, 2007 11:05PM)
Heck, I'd buy something made by David Berglas' grandmother...
Message: Posted by: JRob (Sep 27, 2007 07:20AM)
I found the cheesewrestler comment rather amusing, actually. It speaks to more opportunistic side of our community. Nothing wrong with opportunism, given that magic as an art is somewhat opportunistic in itself.
Message: Posted by: bsears (Oct 10, 2007 12:08AM)
I think Josh and Jamy both have some valid points on this issue, but they both seem a bit unyielding in their opinions. IMO, there is a middleground here. (using unrecognizable props only with justification and only when necessary).
Message: Posted by: Dr. Climonds (Oct 22, 2007 03:12PM)
For all you DIYers out there, take two Sucrets lids and a bulldog clip and VOILA' your own homemade (read:inexpensive) Porper Card Clip. AND I've almost never had anyone say anything about it. PLUS, you get the added bonus of Sucrets written on the lid. (Get it... Sucrets=Secrets!)
Message: Posted by: ASW (Oct 22, 2007 04:46PM)
I always say, if life gives you climonds, make climonade.
Message: Posted by: Silly Walter the Polar Bear (Oct 22, 2007 05:41PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-22 16:12, Dr. Climonds wrote:
For all you DIYers out there, take two Sucrets lids and a bulldog clip and VOILA' your own homemade (read:inexpensive) Porper Card Clip. AND I've almost never had anyone say anything about it. PLUS, you get the added bonus of Sucrets written on the lid. (Get it... Sucrets=Secrets!)
[/quote]

I was going to do this but Magic Makers just created the same item but for much less money by using the generic brand of throat lozenges instead of Sucrets. (of course this is all done with absolutely no credit given to Dr climonds or Sucrets).
Message: Posted by: dolius (Mar 14, 2008 04:45AM)
As a magician, feeling induction is one of the most wanted techniques. Feeling induction is all about incorporating emotions into your system.
reference: http://magicspells.mountofvenus.com/feeling_induction.html
Message: Posted by: ixnay66 (Apr 23, 2008 12:56PM)
The funniest part of this discussion is the fact that some of the people that use card clips equate using a card clip with corporate gigs and nice suits and if you DON'T use one, you wear overalls, smoke corncob pipes and have 10 year old cards with clowns on them. Probably one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever read.

As for using a card clip, I think it's rather unnecessary but if some people feel it keeps their cards flat and they're happy with it, good for them.
Message: Posted by: ASW (May 17, 2008 02:47AM)
[quote]
On 2008-04-23 13:56, ixnay66 wrote:
The funniest part of this discussion is the fact that some of the people that use card clips equate using a card clip with corporate gigs and nice suits and if you DON'T use one, you wear overalls, smoke corncob pipes and have 10 year old cards with clowns on them. Probably one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever read.
[/quote]

It was meant ironically as a means to highlight the similarly stupid generalisations made by those who think that using a card clip is some form of blasphemy that will confuse and befuddle our delicate lay audiences and cause the magic world to implode.

Fact is: lay audiences immediately understand what a card clip is for, even if Jamy Swiss struggles with the idea.

Now: I'm talking about a plain unadorned black card clip. If Swiss is talking about ones with lime polka dots, lavender stars and rose-hued sequins, then I COMPLETELY agree with him.
Message: Posted by: Richard Kaufman (Jul 28, 2008 10:03AM)
The only thing worse than a card clip is a close-up mat. NO ONE should ever be seen using a close-up mat when performing for laymen.

No card clips, no mats, no fancy card cases, nothing. Just a deck of cards when you work for laymen.
Message: Posted by: msc455magic (Jul 29, 2008 02:45AM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-28 11:03, Richard Kaufman wrote:
The only thing worse than a card clip is a close-up mat.
[/quote]
Agreed. Although some of the stuff I do require close-up mat, the vast majority does not. I think it is important to adapt all types of tricks so you can do it without a close-up mat, too.