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Topic: First post
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 13, 2007 06:07PM)
I have a degree in electrical engineering, and I have high hopes for "the science of magic".
Message: Posted by: mrunge (Aug 13, 2007 06:50PM)
I can't wait!!! This should be a really interesting room to visit.

Mark. :)
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Aug 13, 2007 06:56PM)
Finally a place where we can have more indepth discussions of the apparatus of magic
Message: Posted by: tbaer (Aug 13, 2007 07:00PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EABdAEt_fM

Anyone here of Bob Friedhoffer, he does magic with science to make it interesting so people learn without getting bored.

I wouldn't mind getting some of his books.
Message: Posted by: Bob Johnston (Aug 13, 2007 07:47PM)
He (Friedhoffer) still sells is books on his website,
http://members.aol.com/scienctrix/index.html
I used to use one of them in classroom magic at the middle school and high school level.

Bob
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 13, 2007 08:12PM)
Wait a minute is "the science of magic" the opposit of "the good news" where the godless heathens talk about magic tricks? I don't know any godless heathen tricks, but I was just a thinken.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Aug 13, 2007 08:29PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-13 21:12, Al Angello wrote:
Wait a minute is "the science of magic" the opposit of "the good news" where the godless heathens talk about magic tricks? I don't know any godless heathen tricks, but I was just asking.
[/quote]

when I saw this forum I thought it was for those wanting to help unravel mysteries to help invent new tricks using scientific methods, I didn't think that this was going to be a "athiest" version of the Good News Thread
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 13, 2007 08:30PM)
There's lots of work on subjective reality and perception and behavior under the influence of magical thinking. :)
Message: Posted by: Spellbinder (Aug 13, 2007 09:16PM)
The ancestors of magicians are the alchemists, the first scientists. We should all be interested in science. It runs through everything we do. The only real art of magic is concealing the science behind it.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 13, 2007 09:22PM)
Funny how magic is not about what is but about the experience of perceiving.

Alchemy... well that brings much personal responsibility and a commitment to self improvement to the base empirical model and scientific rigor. As above, so below, one thing, and that includes you too.
Message: Posted by: Justin R (Aug 13, 2007 11:00PM)
I think (not sure) that the following thread was the inspiration for this room: [url]http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=213761&forum=40[/url]
Message: Posted by: enginemagic (Aug 14, 2007 06:17AM)
Theres a collage in our town of fort wayne at IPFW that has a magic course provided by one of our best magicians.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 14, 2007 07:17AM)
Interesting thread.

Does this mean folks here are ready to look at how the feeling of "truth" can be elicited and then anchored?
Message: Posted by: GeorgeG (Aug 14, 2007 10:46AM)
The magic of today is the science of tomorrow
Message: Posted by: Doug Peters (Aug 14, 2007 11:13AM)
Many years ago, I had a public "discussion" on science and magic with a "big name" on the EG. The "name" had no compunction to disparage me because I was not a "professional" magician. But he then seemed genuinely surprised when his pontifications on "the science of magic" were questioned by a professional scientist! Go figure.

Here are some things I'd like to see (as magic invites science all the more):
- statistics on audience responses, and factor analysis thereof
- measurement of angles/flash-lines for various sleights
- standards in publication: crediting and documentation

cheers, Doug
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 14, 2007 11:41AM)
Justin
We read the same thread, which is why I asked if this area is for the godless heathen magicians?
Message: Posted by: Doug Peters (Aug 14, 2007 12:03PM)
If this is an area for godless heathens, it is certainly an odd choice of title.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 14, 2007 03:32PM)
Doug
There was a time when all unknowns like crop failure were answered by the tribal witch doctor, now we have weather men. The scientists are slowly, and grudgingly getting contorle of scientific beliefs from the churches, or the witch doctors. I saw a TV show just recently on the history channel that claimed the walls of Jerico were toppled by an earth quake. Yes Doug this is the place were the godless heathens magicians can spin straw into gold.
Message: Posted by: Doug Peters (Aug 14, 2007 05:10PM)
Al,

As a scientist, I can assure you that I am not the least bit "grudging" in my growing control over scientific *facts*. I do not, however, peddle in "scientific" *beliefs*, and frankly, I distrust anyone who does (or who claims to spin straw into gold, for that matter).

But you seem to have a muddled notion of the miraculous. If an earthquake toppled the walls of Jericho, or a meteorite hit the altar at Carmel, how would that change history? The miracle was not in the destruction of the walls/altar. The miracle was in the coincidental presence of the folk who leveraged that destruction. A lesson for all aspiring wonder-workers...

Incidentally, as an electrical engineer, you should have more than passing respect for Michael Faraday or James Clerk Maxwell. (For the uninitiated, perhaps the two most influential scientists in history from an elec.eng. perspective). No doubt you are also familiar with their respective positions on the supernatural?

cheers, Doug
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 14, 2007 05:29PM)
I have no idea what Faraday, or Maxwell's belief in the supernatural were. I was taught about Faraday cage, and I was taught about Maxwell's theorem, but what church they went to was not taught in my school. I have a bachelor's degree from what's a matta U. in Frostbite Falls, Minnesota.
Message: Posted by: Doug Peters (Aug 14, 2007 05:40PM)
When giants of science such as Newton, Leibniz, Pascal, Boyle, Faraday, and Maxwell whole-heartedly embraced the supernatural, it is more than a little absurd than midgets such as ourselves should dismiss it in the name of "science".

For future reference, "Maxwell's Equations" were what you were taught -- even at WaM4U.

cheers, Doug
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 14, 2007 05:50PM)
I have not worked in electronics since the early 90s, so I'm a little rusty on Maxwell theorem, or equasion. In fact I thought it was Nikola Tesla that ruled the roost when it came to electricity, and once again I have no idea what church, mosque, or synagague Mr. Tesla attended. I have no idea if he was a family man, beat his wife, smoked, drank, or was a vegetarian. Actually it was 1987 when I decided to dedecated all of my time to juggling, and magic. Concidently the cold war ended, and military electronics had massive layoffs.
Message: Posted by: Doug Peters (Aug 14, 2007 06:07PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-14 18:50, Al Angello wrote:
I thought it was Nikola Tesla that ruled the roost.
[/quote]That degree in electrical engineering would have required (in 1980 and later) for you to have passed at least two "Electro-Magnetic Theory" courses. The more advanced one would have had you memorize and utilize Maxwell's Equations, of which Einstein wrote: "The most profound and fruitful [work...] since Newton".
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 14, 2007 06:15PM)
Thank God this thread is not about me. In 1980 I was 35 years old, and raising two kids. As far as I know in this country we still have the freedom of religion, and the freedom from religion. I follow the beat of my own drum, and I always have.
Message: Posted by: Doug Peters (Aug 14, 2007 06:57PM)
I certainly hope that nothing I've said has led you to imagine that I am attempting to limit your freedoms! Or your rhythm! In fact, I have no beef with a thread enabling atheistic discussion. My only point was that it could surely have a more appropriate title than "The Science of Magic". There are certainly a number of interesting applications of what is truly Science to the field of Magic without recourse to any metaphysics.

cheers, Doug
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 14, 2007 07:55PM)
I am not an atheist, but I do not wear my religion on my sleeve. You are trying to make conversions at the wrong time, and in the wrong place. We are talking about science as it applies to magic. A good example of this is, you can easily stand a dozen raw eggs on their ends during the vernal equinox, and at the end of that 2 hour window of opportunity they will all fall down.
Message: Posted by: enginemagic (Aug 14, 2007 09:37PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-14 11:46, GeorgeG wrote:
The magic of today is the science of tomorrow
[/quote]theres a lot of science in magic especially when you use chemicals,And simple machines. Maybe someday the Invention Tesla used in the movie the "Prestige" will become a reality!!!!!! look out !!!!!!.
Message: Posted by: Spellbinder (Aug 14, 2007 10:18PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-14 20:55, Al Angello wrote:
A good example of this is, you can easily stand a dozen raw eggs on their ends during the vernal equinox, and at the end of that 2 hour window of opportunity they will all fall down.
[/quote]

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/egg_spin.html

As long as we're being scientific. However, if you wanted to keep the myth going, as a magician, you could easily make them all stand and all fall over at one time. You'd have to be Houdini to keep the audience watching this for two hours, however. That's REAL magic.
Message: Posted by: Doug Peters (Aug 15, 2007 05:26AM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-14 20:55, Al Angello wrote:
We are talking about science as it applies to magic.
[/quote]
Actually, *I* was *trying* to talk about science as it applies to magic. *You* were insisting on discussing "godless heathens":
- Aug 13, 2007 9:12pm
- Aug 14, 2007 12:41pm
- Aug 14, 2007 4:32pm
That's 3/4 of all your posts til that time; 3/18 of all of the posts on the first thread in the "Science of Magic".
The evidence (a concept that anyone who talks about science should be familiar with) indicates that it is *you* who have a religious agenda here.

cheers, Doug
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 15, 2007 06:40AM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-14 23:18, Spellbinder wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-08-14 20:55, Al Angello wrote:
A good example of this is, you can easily stand a dozen raw eggs on their ends during the vernal equinox, and at the end of that 2 hour window of opportunity they will all fall down.
[/quote]

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/egg_spin.html

As long as we're being scientific. However, if you wanted to keep the myth going, as a magician, you could easily make them all stand and all fall over at one time. You'd have to be Houdini to keep the audience watching this for two hours, however. That's REAL magic.
[/quote]

How about that for a trick using a magic egg timer, two eggs and an imp bottle?
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 15, 2007 06:56AM)
Doug
I am a juggler, a magician, and a comedian. I have met people with no sense of humor before, but none quite as serious as you. Lighten up my friend LIFE IS SHORT.
Message: Posted by: Doug Peters (Aug 15, 2007 08:03AM)
Al,
You're zero for three looking for insults that'll stick. But feel free to keep trying, you must be entertaining someone...
Message: Posted by: leaycraft (Aug 15, 2007 09:06AM)
Im a bio-medical researcher now teaching HS Biology. this can be agreat forum. I use magic to focus students on observation, critical thinking etc. The "real" magic is that the natural world is far more interesting and intriguing than most people can fathom. That being said sets focus some attention as to how we can incorporate science and magic. i.e. a retention of vision vanish uses physiological attributes to fool the eye into seeing what is and is not there.

john
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 15, 2007 09:17AM)
John
Welcome to the magic Café. At one time I was professor Bob's assistant. Professor Bob had many cool science experiments that he would present at school assemblies, it was both magic, and science. Professor Bob is still doing it full time, and probibly makes more money than I do. The down side was Bob would stay up late at night preparing for his presentations.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Aug 15, 2007 07:17PM)
Al,

certainly a great amount of new-wave magic will be enabled by electric and electronics. So great to have your knowledge available . . .

I am just thinking of the almost endless possibilities of a reed swithc . . .

cheers

Andy
Message: Posted by: Spellbinder (Aug 15, 2007 10:05PM)
My father used to beat me with a reed swithc. It didn't hurt a bit! That's probably why I didn't larn nuthin.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 16, 2007 06:56AM)
He should have used a willow.
Message: Posted by: enginemagic (Aug 17, 2007 07:20AM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-15 23:05, Spellbinder wrote:
My father used to beat me with a reed swithc. It didn't hurt a bit! That's probably why I didn't larn nuthin.
[/quote]That isn't as bad as my father using a rubber hose LOL. One good thing about that is that it keped me in line,and learned a lot from my father.Kids now days need that to keep the bad things like the culimbine incidents from happening.I`m glad I didn't turn out like that.Wich is a positive note these days.
Message: Posted by: tbaer (Aug 17, 2007 05:40PM)
A reed switch. Now that's a nice little device to have around. Used this device in a couple of effects.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Aug 17, 2007 06:21PM)
Someone mentioned Newton, oddly enough I had just considered Newton and his smartnessosity which I will hereby state thusly: "Newton wasn't that great, he's known for getting hit by an apple (Oooooh, it [i]FELL[/i] on my head, I invented gravity!)
Having poor reflexes coupled with unawareness of your surroundings shouldn't make you famous."

Yes I did take that directly from something someone wrote, but that someone was me and I got his permission.

Doug was right this should have a less atheistic name. A bible didn't fall on Newtons head after all.... How about "Magicians Smartnessosity"?

And to think I'll still be sober for another hour!

Posted: Aug 17, 2007 7:24pm
Sorry Newton's thing was the law of gravity.

So he invented the legal system which has oversight over gravity (It's in the Patriot Act). So if you don't like gravity, your a communist!
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 17, 2007 09:06PM)
Josh
He also invented a mean cookie.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Aug 18, 2007 02:55AM)
Fig Newtons are good. But then he started messing with those disgusting "Fruit Newtons" which were terrible.

He isn't a very nice man.
Message: Posted by: tbaer (Aug 18, 2007 12:54PM)
Yeah, I agree, the fruit Newton's are the "pits".
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 18, 2007 01:34PM)
Tbear
I know that you are a Sunday school teacher, and it makes me very happy to know that you feel at home here talking about science, and magic with us.
Message: Posted by: tbaer (Aug 18, 2007 09:18PM)
Al, thanks for the kind words. Here is a science project that looks like fun.

http://www.youtubedigger.com/egg-into-a-milk-bottle/
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 18, 2007 09:38PM)
My kindergarten teacher did that one more years ago than I'm willing to admit.

I remember professor Bob got a heavy plastic gallon jug, cut the bottom off, and stretched a kitchen type rubber glove over the big open end. When he snapped the glove it created a vortex which would blow out a candle on the other side of the room.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Aug 19, 2007 05:41PM)
Mr. Garrison did that using only a glass tube, a hamster and Mr. Slave.

Poor lemiwinks......
Message: Posted by: kregg (Aug 21, 2007 04:39PM)
Here's a piece titled, The Science of Magic: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/science/21magic.html?pagewanted=all

If you've already read it, disregard this notice.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 22, 2007 06:26PM)
Kregg
Ok it has been two days, and no one read your article. I'm not about to give the New York Times my email, or my snail mail address, so what is your article all about?
Message: Posted by: Billgussen (Aug 22, 2007 11:46PM)
I gave the NYT my e-mail address years and years ago, so I'll brave the data mining for you.

It's an interesting but rambling piece about how the author was in Las Vegas during the Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness' annual meeting. They had invited several magicians to talk about perception and misdirection -- and how that relates to perception, forming patterns in one's mind, and assumptions. The magicians he mentions are people like Teller, James Randi, and a few other LV performers. Most of it is something of a name-dropping travel log with the author going to bars or seeing sights with various big-name scientists and philosophers.

It had some interesting points, but the writing style seemed just so...pretentious.

Bill
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 23, 2007 06:56AM)
Bill
You are the greatest.
Thanks
Al
Message: Posted by: cjbroz (Aug 24, 2007 08:11PM)
Rough cuts of Apollo Robbins' talk have been posted online. There is also a shorter clip of James Randi. Mac King, Johnny Thompson, and Teller have generously, very generously, given permission to have their talks posted, and that will come at a later time.

http://www.mindscience.org/magicsymposium/index.html

The Café crowd would have been interested in the academic talks on change blindness and inattentional blindness, stuff Richard Wiseman has popularized around these parts.

The magicians gave very entertaining and informative talks. They revealed a few observations that researchers would be wise to pursue. For example, if you move your hand from one position to another, Apollo Robbins mentioned that people are unlikely to look at the original position if you move your hand in an arc rather than a straight line.

There was also a very candid and hilarious Q&A session afterwards. I'm hoping they'll post that, but perhaps certain things best not exposed :)
Message: Posted by: kregg (Aug 25, 2007 07:27AM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-22 19:26, Al Angello wrote:
Kregg
Ok it has been two days, and no one read your article. I'm not about to give the New York Times my email, or my snail mail address, so what is your article all about?
[/quote]

Al, Unless I heard wrong, NYT gave up on that stupid requirement about a week ago. The link should still be active. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/science/21magic.html?pagewanted=all
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 25, 2007 07:34AM)
Kregg
Thanks for getting back to me, but they still want to know two things that I object to:
1. My email address.
2. My gender. That is really crossing the line.
Al
Message: Posted by: kregg (Aug 25, 2007 08:52PM)
I feel sorry for you "Explorer" users.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Aug 26, 2007 09:43PM)
It Doesn't make me give any info.

Perhaps they realize I have junk e-mail addresses and false aliases that I give to nosey porn sites and whatever the "New York Times" is. Can't find any porn there, and it [b]is[/b] the Internet...
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 27, 2007 07:55AM)
My pal Jonathan Townsend emailed me the article. It appears that Jonathan doesn't care if the NY Times knows his gender.
THANKS
Al
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Aug 27, 2007 09:52AM)
For the record, one can copy and paste any internet page to Microsoft Word (Or oppenoffice.org writer) and send it, even modify it.
Message: Posted by: evolve629 (Sep 23, 2007 04:33PM)
I find many wonderful cool tricks at this website. Countless magically applications!

http://www.layhands.com/ScienceTricks/Index.htm