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Topic: My feelings towards the societies
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 4, 2007 04:42PM)
Please forgive my spelling.

For a while now there has been an emerging group of magicians who feel they are renegades and have left the societies to work with others like minded.

I feel this is sad.

So here it is;

well for those of you who have had any dealings with the magic societies this ain't new to you.

they suck,

they have digressed from their original glory as a faternity

usually at best it's a bunch of old timers who want respect but have failed on providing any of their obligations. and who showed little respect to the ones before them.

they also think we arn't aware of what they are supposed to be providing.

venues, performance halls, practice studios, practical working material instead of packet close up tricks

they should be providing lectures from real workers more often.

if they want more money for this they should be providing the above mentioned so we could afford to give more.

heck years ago I provided venues, a performance space and practice studio for the local magi in el paso, tx. and I wasn't a teacher or a society recieving dues I was just a back yard show working guy. you can ask baltazar fuentes or jamie ohara about my magic shop there.

so these society guys have no excuses don't listen to them. if they need to go out of pocket they should they are supposed to be servants, I did and I wasn't elected to anything.

don't get me wrong we should also be getting more involved in good work and with money.

many sams and ibms have guys who barely know anything about magic yet they are our presidents and leaders because they got a lot of money from their "real jobs", the problem is they ain't spreadin it around to help us indure the pain of them bein there.

when you go to these places all you see is a bunch of guys with cards in their hands pretending....where the hell do they work any way?

cellini provided us with a alternative in his following and followers.

like Slydini [his teacher] and the old masters, he provided;

venue, costume, show structure, practical working material, practical props and tools, lectures by qualified pros, and much more over the exstent of his life.

its just a shame how we treated him in his own country especially how the societies have treated him, unfortunatly I saw some first hand, and most of the time he took it and showed humility. but some times he lost it.

if were gonna act like we are the other society or the renegades who don't need one then we should behave twice as good as them to get crediblity and so we don't screw up beginners heads.

if we reject the societies we should never become the same problem.

with all that said the proper thing to do of course is to try and correct the problems in the sam,ibm,taom, and all the others that we have come into.

we should be cleaning house. With that said, I am

a strong believer in our tradition and the societies believe it or not
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 4, 2007 05:36PM)
Boy, I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole (appearing or not)

But I'm certainly going to fix popcorn and sit back and watch the fireworks.
Message: Posted by: drwilson (Sep 4, 2007 07:43PM)
Some local Rings are like the crummy ones that you describe, others offer mentoring, venues, group shows, and the other things that you say are lacking. It is up to the local members to provide these things. There isn't a group of nasty old guys holding on to all the goodies. Some of our members build props, and will help others build things. Some of our members work well in a group show but can't fill an entire hour by themselves. Some of our members are fantastic sources of knowledge and wisdom, and share freely if you ask them. It is up to each member to think about what they want out of the Ring, and to find it.

A Ring, or other magic club, is not a low-tuition College of Magic that can provide everything that a performer "needs." What does a practice studio cost? What does a lecture from a working pro cost (at least as much as booking a small show of theirs, or they are stupid for lecturing!). How is this supposed to appear out of thin air for a group of people paying local Ring dues? A whole year's worth of dues wouldn't rent a rehearsal studio for a week.

There are plenty of venues around if you have an open mind and are willing to work a gate split.

I don't regard this post as part the fireworks that Payne is looking for. Maybe someone will light a Roman Candle or something soon. I am just trying to talk sense, and am baffled by a worldview in which a bunch of nasty old codgers are sitting on bags of money for the sole purpose of thwarting the careers of aspiring artists.

Yours,

Paul
Message: Posted by: Father Photius (Sep 4, 2007 08:47PM)
Well I'm aware of the problems in El Paso, and the few who started them still are around doing their thing. There is a ring on paper here but no real ring and as long as that group is around probably not going to be a magic club. Been several attempts to restart one, very few interested. But that is just one group of individuals, who, as you say, really don't know that much about magic, just like to blow their own horns like they do. I've been in magic over 50 years ,belong to a very well known magic family, and the local El Paso gang still wouldn't tell me where they held their meetings (because there were really none). Don't judge all magic societies by the clowns in El Paso. Jamie is a fine magician, and he doesn't judge societies by the behavior of a few. I find great fellowhsip and support in all three of the US organizations I belong to. Not at all as you have stated that they are a bunch of old foggies trying to keep it to themselves. In fact the organizations are full of some very bring young people who are clearly the on the cutting edge and future of magic, and they are very active in the organizations, plus the organizations are very supportive of them. I've belonged to rings and assemblies that were tremendous organizations of magicians, who helped each other, supported each other and learned from each other. El Paso is a world unto itself in more ways than one, and all it takes is a few bad apples to spoil a bunch. There are still some great magicians here , who do support each other, and do get along, and don't think you need 100 dollar dues and excluding kids to keep the magic to themselves. In any location if a ring or assembly goes bad, it is possible to create another one that avoids those problems and individuals. And you can have a local magic club without affiliating with either.
I currently belong to the Dallas Magic Clubs, though I live in El Paso, and the Dallas Clubs is both a Ring and Assembly, plus has some members who are not members of either organization (but can't vote or hold office). It is a great club with some great people, and I've never seen a group get along better or be more supportive of each other. You had a bad experience, but don't judge the whole of the various magic organizations by that.
Maria Ibanez, the Current SAM president is a wonderful person, she puts a lot of time into helping members get the most out of the organization. Just go read the SAM forum here and see how much she is involved even with the smallest questions or problems, now getting help from the top honcho is a sign of a organization that tries to help its members.
Phil Willmarth, the president of the IBM is a very good magician and a very good leader as well. He also goes out of the way to be open and available to the individual members of the IBM. He is a very approachable guy and takes his job seriously. I had no trouble walking up and speaking to him at the IBM. He takes time and listens, he does not try to put forth some agenda of the old foggies. He wants the IBM to be an organization that benefits its members and puts a lot of effort into seeing that it does just that.
Gay Blackstone, the president of the board of the Academy of Magical Arts has done an outstanding job (even though I'm prejudice, since she is family). She has led the Academy to good sound financial status after a period of trouble. She has done a lot to increase what the Academy does and can do for its membership. She is a lady I've personally seen sit and listen carefully to both members and non members concerning their likes and dislikes about the Castle and the Academy and has taken that information to heart. She is very approachable, very attentive and very interested in what the membership and potential membership think the academy should be doing and is or isn't doing right.
In fact all three of the major organizations in the US are doing a bang up job and always trying to improve. If you want change, then get involved. Join, run for office, participate. Don't stand on the outside and blame the whole based an a few loose nuts in El Paso.
Message: Posted by: Skip Way (Sep 4, 2007 09:09PM)
Your Ring or Assembly is only as good as the people who speak up and drive the program. If you're waiting for someone else to speak out and lead the way...then stare into the nearest mirror for the problem.
Message: Posted by: mrunge (Sep 4, 2007 10:35PM)
That's right. You're magic club is only as strong as YOU make it.

If you don't like what is going on, get involved. Work with others who feel as you do and change the way things work.

If all else fails, start your own club!

Mark.
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Sep 5, 2007 01:47AM)
I was a member of SAM for one year. It came with registration when the convention came to Las Vegas. We had no SAM assembly in the area, so I let it lapse. On the other hand, I've been an IBM member for over 20 years with no local club to speak of. Darwin's weekly meetings pretty much supressed the competition as nobody could compete with a once a month meeting vs. weekly with big name lectures and performers coming through on a regular basis.

We have a local IBM group now, but although they're active in their own way, I've always felt like an outsider. Mark posted "If all else fails, start your own..." Well, in a way I did, along with a few other people. I was one of the 25 charter members of IBM's Ring 2100, and was voted their President, a title I've held since about 1994.

We've brought together nearly a thousand IBM members who, like me, had no local meeting place for one reason or another. It's primitive by today's online standards, but we get by.
Message: Posted by: Merlina (Sep 5, 2007 08:10AM)
Please forgive the double post -- wanted to make sure the word got out



Greetings, as President of one of the "societies" that Mr. Jimmy Talksalot is aluding to, and without any intent of getting into a this for that type of commentary, I wish to address some of his concerns and issues.

This "ain't", "they suck," "they have digressed from their original glory as a faternity" -- Mr. Talksalot, judging by your avatar on this forum and the choice of verbage (ain't . . . faternity instead of fraternity) I would assume you are not from the charter group of the S.A.M. when it formed in 1902 but rather from a more recent group of those who are into magic at the present time.

Referring to the leadership of the associations or societies as "a bunch of old timers who want respect but have failed on providing any of their obligations, and who showed little respect to the ones before them". Respect is earned through ones labors and actions and the type of respect earned is in direct proportion to what we ourselves put into the mix, let me explain. The Professor, Dai Vernon, earned his respect through his well known skills, impeccable reputation, willingness to share of himself and his magic and much more; this is the case with all the greats and those we respect (contrary to what you state that you see) Slydini, Harlan Tarbell, Jay Marshall, Richiardi, Doug Henning, Al Goshman, and so many others.

The"old timers....have failed on providing any of their obligations", is another loaded comment. It sounds as though you are asking to demand those things you feel are the obligation of those in the societies to provide for you. Societies, clubs and associations are pretty much like a bank, you get out of it what you put into it.

You say we think that you "arn't (should be aren't) aware of what they are supposed to be providing". Please enlighten us on what it is you feel we are not providing for the members? Where exactly in the membership application, constitution and by-laws or any other written or implied means of communication of the societies does it state that we are to provide you "venues, performance halls, practice studios, practical working materials, etc."?

You say that "they should be providing lectures from real workers more often" -- again, you get out of societies what you put into it in direct proportion. Let us take for example an assembly, ring or club which has 30 members (that's a good average number to use), if each of those members pays $30 dues a year, that means the club takes in $900 revenue in dues a year. The average cost for a lecturer is somewhere between $250 and $300 plus a hotel night; taking the low end of the expenses, this would mean you could hire 3 lecturers a year if you don't have to pay for a meeting room or any other expenses. This naturally does not leave any money for postage and printing of the monthly newsletter, which clearly is going to be one of the benefits you will demand that the societies are not providing. This also doesn't leave any money for a website, which being a member of today's group you would also demand to have. Let us assume that the group wishes to put on a fund raising show or other event to generate some income, if all members are like you who feel the group owes them, how many members do you think you could get to perform for free so the club could make funds to bring you those lecturers you want?

THANK YOU for having provided "venues, performance space and practice studio for the local magi" reading a little further in the same paragraph you ask us to ask about your "magic shop there" It is great that you had a magic shop and were able to provide the above facilities - this was mutually beneficial to you and the magi who were provided not just a place to meet and practice their performances but also a place to purchase their needed effects. This works very well at several other magic shops around the US.
PLEASE do not assume that those who are in leadership positions with any of the societies are "teachers" who "receive dues" - these are volunteer societies and we are all volunteers who put in countless hours and funds our of our own pockets in the promotion and towards the advancement of the art.

You state that "these society guys have no excuses don't listen to them. if they need to go out of pocket they should they are supposed to be servants, I did and I wasn't elected to anything" -- Understand one thing -- we are here as volunteers because we choose to be and because we are more than willing to give of ourselves and of our time --in many cases this involves giving of our families and privacy in addition to our monies. I won't speak to this year, but last year as President Elect, I was over $10,000 out of pocket in expenses in addition to the countless hours that I spent away due to travel, conference calls and other society related business. As far as "I did and I wasn't elected to anything" I have just one question -- were you doing for the good of magic and the magicians or were you doing with the ulterior motives of getting something in return ... ie getting elected?

"many sams and ibms have guys who barely know anything about magic yet they are our presidents and leaders because they got a lot of money from their "real jobs", the problem is they ain't spreadin it around to help us indure the pain of them bein there." Again, I won't speak for any of the other who get a lot of money from their "real jobs" but I will address your suggestion that they "ain't spreadin it around to help us indure the pain of them bein there" -- I hope you are not suggesting that you be paid for the privilege of belonging to one of the societies. As the President of one of the societies, let me tell you a little about my background and how all this has come to be....I've been a professional magician in south Florida for over 30 years now, served as President of the Florida Magicians Association 4 consecutive terms, have served as officer in both IBM Rings and SAM Assemblies locally, have served as Regional Vice President of the Society of American Magicians before climbing the chairs to the current Presidency. Have I performed and worked during all these years? You bet! I've performed for royalty, past Presidents, regular birthday parties, library shows, educational shows at schools, fundraising shows for quite a few benefits, 6 weeks of volunteer work in the aftermath of Hurricane Andrew with the 13th Army Band at the tent cities, have just started the 22nd year as a volunteer at Miami Children's Hospital VACC Camp for the pulmonology department and much, much more. I perform with doves, rabbits and love birds. By the way, I am also a member of IBM, Order of Merlin and a member of The Magic Circle, AIMC with Silver Star.

"when you go to these places all you see is a bunch of guys with cards in their hands pretending....where the hell do they work any way?" In case you have not caught on yet, I am not a "guy" although I am one of the guys at the club and although I do some cards, I don't walk around with a deck of cards -- as far as "where the hell do they work any way?"
just read the preceding paragraph and you can get an idea of where I for one have worked.

Some of your next comments concern me a great deal -- "if were gonna act like we are the other society or the renegades who don't need one then we should behave twice as good as them to get crediblity and so we don't screw up beginners heads" -- "if we reject the societies we should never become the same problem." -- "with all that said the proper thing to do of course is to try and correct the problems in the sam,ibm,taom, and all the others that we have come into." -- "we should be cleaning house." Is this bitterness and anger speaking out at some perceived injustice?

Please PM me with a phone number and I will gladly give you a call and try to discuss with you what has happened at what level to make you feel this upset - I don't promise to be able to solve whatever has been done in the past, but I do promise to provide you a listening ear and a sounding board and if there is anything in my power that I can do to help at least make you feel as though someone cares, then I will do just that.

Remember my motto -- you've got to have a dream to make a dream come true.

Keep a dream in the making

Maria Ibanez
National President
Society of American Magicians
Message: Posted by: harris (Sep 5, 2007 09:05AM)
Thanks Maria..

I also read this post on the S.A.M. spot...

I might add (not that she needs defending) that Mrs. Ibanez presentation is both magical and emotional. Seeing her work in Boston(05) brought smiles and tears to this nearly normal guy.


Harris
Message: Posted by: Kent Wong (Sep 5, 2007 10:28AM)
Jimmy,

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and complain. The real question is, what are YOU willing to do about it? For the most part, the people who run the local rings do the best job they can with limited time, money and support. So, at the end of the day, you have two options:

1. whine and complain without any active support - in which case, the club may actually disappear altogether; or,

2. step up to the plate and actively make your club the type of organization you think it should be.

The success or failure of your club is entirely up to you. The club is a privilege and it is your responsibility to make it a success. If the club fails and you've done nothing but sit on the sidelines and complain, there's no one to blame but yourself.


Kent
Message: Posted by: harris (Sep 5, 2007 02:27PM)
E

Glad to see that you wrote..

"a strong believer in our tradition and the societies believe it or not"

We are not perfect..(that's the royal "we" of me and my puppets) though I don't speak for SAM(oops..S.A.M) there is always room for improvement in any organization both on the local and national. I have had talks in person and on line with folks at the top of both.

I have seen Slydini and Cellini through my contacts with these groups..
The former has gone on to the great close up table in the sky. One of his relatives writes for the Linking Ring.

harri3s(the 3 is silent)
Too old to know everything
Message: Posted by: mrunge (Sep 5, 2007 02:32PM)
Thanks Maria, for a wonderful letter. I am, and have been for years, in total awe of you and your abilities. You have personally helped me in the past and I know how HARD you have worked for magic and those involved in the art.

You are totally right. It is whatever one makes of it. One can't sit on the side, complain, do nothing, and expect everything to happen and be handed to them.

JimmyTalksalot, your name says it all. You talk to much. You should take a deep breath, go back and read (several times) Maria's post and give it a LOT of consideration. When you figure out that it's NOT up to others to make you happy, you'll be well on your way to success.

In the art of magic, as in most areas of life, you're not owed anything. Get up off your backside and get to work!

Mark.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Sep 5, 2007 06:13PM)
First of all, Jimmy, don't sweat getting banned. We don't ban people because they say they don't like magic societies.

Having said that, let me add that it seems to me you've made an awful lot of suppositions. While I personally no longer belong to either of the two "Big Abbreviations," I bear neither an ill will. My philosophy is simple: if you belong to one, contribute to it and do what you can to make it better. If you don't like where they're headed and can't do anything about it, simply don't renew your membership.

I've belonged to four magic clubs (2 rings, an assembly, and an independent) over the years. Two of them were wonderful and two of them were awful. It's just kind of the nature of things--there is good and bad everywhere. Support the good to the best of your ability. Do what you can to fix/salvage the bad, and if that becomes impossible or too taxing, simple remove yourself from it.

Personally, I prefer to have a session with a few close friends with similar interests. But that's just me...
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 5, 2007 11:47PM)
There has been a lot of accussations made on my motive, character, and spelling. I know I started it and I know you shouldn't throw rocks if you live in a glass house. In my defence I have never been accused of sitting on the side lines complaining, or
doing things for the magic community for political ladder climbing. any one who knows me, knows this is not in my character. I have been active and have seeked no reward and obviously I am seeking none here, unless you believe that I was foolish enough to think I was gonna get a pat on the back for saying these things from the society loyalists. I am a firm believer in the societies and recognize them as my authority.
the problems I have mentioned are merely the tip of the ice berg and folks I'm not your problem it's the large body of magicians who are, or are becoming fed up. If you think I'm making this up go to the sidewalk shuffle and read some of the comments. or the other Café. or simply ask some of the old timers how it was in the old days compared to how it is now. you see that's a big part of my point a lot of you don't even know this is going on.

I love our art and our tradition and I have defended it all my life as much more then a hobby, but attacking critisim to keep your postion isn't gonna help our lifes work.
I ment no disrespect I just thought the socities should know what is being said and why there arn't more active members.

I'm a traveller and I travel to many towns in the us working as a magician and I meet a lot of magicians and this seems to be a theme. this not isolated.
Message: Posted by: mrunge (Sep 5, 2007 11:51PM)
Well...thanks (I guess) for clearing this up for me. I hope you find happiness one day in the world magic community.

Mark.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 6, 2007 12:06AM)
I was talking about the magic community in the u.s. like I've stated continuessly.

mrunge, it seems I have rattled your cage.

make no mistake I am not bitter.

I have taken your advice and reread posts, please reread all of mine.

although you may have reason to be a little offended because I am suspicious that you are exactly who I have been addressing.

and I hope you can find happyness in the world inspite of people like me sharing it with you.

your pal jimmy
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Sep 6, 2007 12:11AM)
I can attest to the fact that Jimmy does something for magic every day he works, which come to think of it is most everyday. I don't know that I could say the same thing about the rest of you because I don't know you and certainly hadn't heard of you before I read this thread. So I don't know what you guys do for magic, you all seem to know each other though, kinda ironic.

Anyway, I posted this a few minutes ago on Danny Hustle's most excellent website and it'll probably be a good thing if I just stop right there and post it as is:


I don't really think it's possible to change people, until they see the need to change for themselves. And even then one can or will probably be merely a signpost for their own sudden discovery.

I am ****ed that IBM changed their website and I can't access club information without having to be a member. Ah well, it was nice while it lasted. I guess the only magicians I see in the future will be in the streets and not some "clubhouse". It was nice while it lasted though, I met a lot of nice guys out there and some real, real workers.

Guys like Donovan, in Vancouver Canada. Donovan, if you're reading this or you hear of it, let me tell you brother, you ROCK. You help me keep the faith Bro.

But then I didn't meet Donovan through the IBM, or the SAM, I met him through the aegis of Lee Asher.

Back to the topic at hand-- Clubs.

I'd really rather not talk about the unpleasantries of the present, rather appreciate those past meetings in Albuquerque, headed by the likes of Dusty Cravens and Bill Fienning when I met many greats.

I think Jeff Sheridan and Eugene Burger have the right sort of idea or a little better perhaps. I don't know. They're really smart those guys.
Message: Posted by: mrunge (Sep 6, 2007 12:13AM)
Jimmy, you must have me confused with someone else. I'm not offended at all by anything you say. You don't bother me in the least.

I'm not the one complaining. I'm happy with my magic and those I'm associated with. I work constantly, on a daily basis, for the good of our magic club and do all I can to promote it and help others trying to either learn, or get started, in magic.

I'd suggest going back and, yet again, re-reading the advice freely shared with you. You'll notice that everyone else seems to feel, as I do, that you must have some kind of problems with your experiences in magic.

Again, I wish you the best and hope you can get over the bitterness you seem to be displaying in all your posts, including your sarcastic response above.

Best wishes.

Mark. :thumbsup:
Message: Posted by: harris (Sep 6, 2007 10:56AM)
I love sessioning in and outside meetings.

At ring 129 meetings one will see small groups outside in the hall sharing close up ideas with each others. We have a wide range of folks from I saw Chris Angel a few times, to collectors to lecturers to workers in the "real world."

Our group has lots of growth and changes over the years..A couple of months ago we had an open brainstorm on improving it.

I make lots of mistakes including calling this thread S.A.M. (I posted both places on this topic)

Harris "palms of aluminum foil" deutsch
for a lighter touch in coin magic
Message: Posted by: Daveandrews (Sep 6, 2007 06:41PM)
Jimmy, I am confused and don't like to be.
Am I missing something vital here? I'm not sure what is being said. I could make a guess and be wildly missing the point.
I would just like to know - in a nutshell - what exactly is being discussed here. Why? Because I have a gut feeling that something 'important' is trying to come out, but isn't quite making it. I could be totally wrong, however!

Dave
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Sep 6, 2007 10:41PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-06 01:11, Eric Evans wrote:

you all seem to know each other though, kinda ironic.

[/quote]


I take issue with that and everything it implies, sir. I have never met anyone who posted in this topic. Other than the fact that they participate on The Café and that one is an officer of one of the large organizations, I know nothing else about any of them, including you and Jimmy.

A healthy debate is one thing. Thinly veiled accusations that anyone who happens to disagree with your opinion must be in collusion and part of the problem is something else entirely. I don't even belong to any of the societies, nor do I belong to any clubs, unless you count The Café and other sites like it as "clubs." I would recommend caution when making statements with words like "you all."
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Sep 7, 2007 12:06AM)
Oooh, must've struck a nerve there.

Actually Scott, I'd encountered your name here many times before and have even read your posts from time to time. When I'd read the thread originally your post wasn't here and it all seemed...how can I say...incestuous, yes, that's the word I was looking for. When I posted and saw you just above my post I bit my lip a bit. But...

I agree, no need for thinly veiled accusations. You throw cards? How about 10 cards each at ten paces? If not and you still feel huffy about it all then I'll be happy to accomodate whatever form of grudge match you like.

Idaho? I ain't going to Idaho, but I'll meet you in say....hmmm...open for suggestions here.

I was glad to read your post (again, only after I posted) for I thought you were a moderating influence on the topic at hand. But if you insist on taking umbrage (sp?) at my comment then fine, as I said, I can accomodate.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Sep 7, 2007 03:08AM)
Struck a nerve? Yes, but not in the way you seem to be implying. As I said, I don't belong to any of the major societies anymore. So any complaints about them don't faze me in the least. It is with the accusations of collusion that I take issue.

Let's look at the facts regarding this particular topic...

The posters with whom you disagree hail from: Maine, Texas, North Carolina, South Carolina (yes, these actually ARE two separate states), Las Vegas, and [b]Malaysia[/b]. The posters (actually poster) that you support? You admit that you know him personally. Yet it is the "other side" with the "incestuous" relationship? I hardly think so.

I am in the middle on this one. So no need to throw cards or anything else. Gentleman ought to be able to discuss their differences articulately and precisely, without letting their emotions get the best of them. Besides, I am old, overweight, and I have bad joints. I'm afraid I wouldn't be much of a challenge these days in a physical battle anyway.

All I'm saying is words like "you all" and "incestuous" are pretty strong and completely off-target if one simply looks at the facts. Perhaps something along the lines of, "I disagree with these people, and here's why" or "I support Jimmy's position for these reasons..." would be more persuasive and less offensive.

Back on topic: Is there a "good old boys" faction in any of the major societies? Probably, at least to a degree. Is there anything that can be done about it? As I recall, elections are open in most of the societies. And, as I said before, one always has the option of simply not joining / renewing.
Message: Posted by: Michael Taggert (Sep 9, 2007 10:06PM)
{First off Payne Ive got the next batch of popcorn in the popper.(here Have a sparkler)}

I am Currently the president of an active, creative ring here in our nation's capitol. I got there from hard work helping the ring to grow and be prosperous. WE as a ring have long history of Hard work promoting magic in the nations capitol. We also have a great relationship with the S.A.M. assemblies in our area. many of our members belong to several of the Societies in and around the nations capitol. I personally travel over 50 miles to make it to our monthly meetings. I am a working Pro in the area. I perform for audiences every week and have developed a magic business that provides my family with a nice income. Our ring does provide a venue for members to perform and hear top working pros lecture and teach. we also provide a Convention each year that Features a public show that last year raised several thousand dollars for the Our school partner. Our ring has a mixed selection of folks from beginning novices to a Past international president, a Fism Winner, top international Illusionists, Inventors of magic, teachers and did I mention My "real Job" is a as a Plumber.
I certainly don't have LOTs of Money to throw around. Yes I have had to go into pocket to get to conventions. I spend hours on the internet each month trying to get lecturers to come to our club and teach.
Your club cannot provide you with EVERTHING you need. Magic is about the journey. it is not an art form that can be mastered overnight. That there is rumblings from the streets is a sign of those young people's need to invest in themselves. The internet cannot teach you magic. The Old guys worked hard to get what they have gotten. (I guess at age 46 Im an old guy)
If you attend a national convention you will see that there is a mix of young and Old that are sharing. Mind you there will always be differences of opinions. The lone practicioners are those that find the road very hard indeed.
As far as Eric's Comment that the Future of Magic will be in the streets and Not some Clubhouse is misguided. first of all the streets is not the only place to find magic. club houses are a place for us to meet and to set aside our professional differences and learn from each other, it is a place to meet friends of like mind and skill. Club houses are not the end all be all of magic. Magic is a performance and thatrical art.It Must be performed in front of a lay audience to be appreciated fully and kept alive by the masters. If your club is not doing that for you then you need figure out where you want to be in your club, what you whant out of your club or whether you whant out of your club.

"cellini provided us with a alternative in his following and followers.

"like Slydini [his teacher] and the old masters, he provided;

venue, costume, show structure, practical working material, practical props and tools, lectures by qualified pros, and much more over the exstent of his life."

I work the street too Dude you are lost if you think that Cellini is the end all be all of Magic. you need to get out more. Cellini is a street worker. he is excellent at what he does but magic covers a much Broader Gambit than just the street. While the street if a great place to work there are other places to ply the art form.
The Only costume piece that I saw Cellini "providing" was One of the Leather Bags he Had for sale to help make His lively hood

Last of all I want to Thank Merlina for Posting. Mrs. Ibenez is Fantastic performer. She shows that our organizations are not just based on the "Old Guys" She is doing a wonderful job as President of the S.A.M.

As for those who feel they need to be offensive just so the can be offensive to people they don't realy know. just stop.

(I appologozed for the Typos and Mispellings but Ihave'nt been able to get spell check to work on this site) (payne do you want butter on the popcorn. Harris has the beer and pretzels)
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 13, 2007 01:38AM)
Mr. Michael,

I'm forty, and I can see how that old guy comment can be confused.

and although I'm sure Mrs. Ibenez is doing a bang up job, due to the huge praise she has recieved here,we should agree that assuming that a person is immune from short commings merely because they are a lady, is saddly in error.

you see that's my point.

there has been so much defence for the sake of defence that it seems as tho everything must be perfect, because everyone is so quick to deny that their cage has been rattled.

and I'll grant you, a hobbiest could very well be happy with the societies because he doesn't take it seriously enough to go full time and suffer the reality of being a magician.he doesn't know any better.

I'm going to have to toot my own horn because I don't want you to think I'm that wet behind my ears.

you see I've been doing magic my whole life I am well aware of the work and research and the journey. every day I devour info or work, I'm a fanatic in my lifes work.

you see I am not one of the hobbiests who flock to the societies and blindly idolize and defend to get a pat on the head.

I know the street is not the only game.

I've supported my family working theaters, resteraunts, stadiums,corprate,backyards,bars,cabarets,circuses and any other magic work I could find here or around the world.

look me up it's there.

I have provided for my students and beginners from the societies out of pocket because I made it my business to do so and I hold no office nor have I sought office.

I'm well aware of all the other masters I just brought up how badly we treated one of them!

which by the way nobody has said a word about that!

and I will say it again until some one is willing to answer this;

IT'S NOT ME MR.MICHAEL, I'M ON YOUR TEAM!

it's the huge body of magician's that's growing in our community that the societies are throwing a blind eye at....and many of these that are getting ignored are working pros.

how are they being ignored? well on this thread they're being told everything is alright and they don't have enough experience to know whats good for them.
they're being told that we don't really understand how the old masters had it even though some of them were our family and some are still talking to us even though they are elderly.

further they're being told that it's isolated to one or two clubs when we all know that's not true.

I wrote the original post in defence of myself on the other Café to many other magician's because I had been accused of being a blind follower of the societies...really.

I unwittingly posted it here thinking that the societies would want to correct these erors instead of defending their own lot.

and yes after all these years I think I do agree with mr.evans that the future of magic will be on the street.

wether anybody wants to admit it or not we have made mistakes here.
Message: Posted by: Brent McLeod (Sep 13, 2007 03:42AM)
Jimmy-

Best advice!! from a Professional worker

don't go to any club meets

Start up your own club with whom you want to discuss & learn similar magic-relative interests & your attitude to other members similar to yours, then you can moan all night

Amateur unpaid people who run many rings worldwide try there best-it always upsets some members no matter what-thats Life

don't go to any IBM or SAM conventions

Chill out!!-You asked for advice-But don't like people who disagree with your problem in Texas area

that's a shame -Stay away from these guys you have problems with,.

I hope you find a group of people who would enjoy your company to talk Magic & topics surrounding-could be difficult

Actually enjoyed your posts-some good points -but that's the Café-sharing

Do I care if you disagree with my comments-Not a bit as this is the end of the topic for me!!!!
Message: Posted by: E. S. Andrews (Sep 14, 2007 09:54AM)
I don't know what you are asking out of the Societies, but I am getting exactly what I want out of I.B.M., which is a way to connect with people who have the same interests that I do and who can give me practical advice on performances and effects. Our dues yearly are small, and although there are people who are caught up in the politics of the thing, there are many other people who are there to learn from each other and offer hard won pieces of advice. Without Ring 29 I wouldn't have had a chance to learn from from professional performers on nearly a weekly basis. And we are blessed to have a magic store where everyone from the neophyte magician to the big name pro feels welcome to come in and spend a Saturday killing time.
I'm not sure exactly what is going on around your area, so I'm not fit to judge your response to it, but there are still some Rings out there giving their members a wide pool of knowledge to work with and learn from. I do wish more people could have an experience like mine, and I hope you find something similar.
Message: Posted by: mrunge (Sep 14, 2007 11:40AM)
Well said, E.S. And...welcome to the Café!

Mark. :)
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 17, 2007 01:45AM)
Mr.andrews and mr.mrunge,

did you notice the post right above you by Brent McLeod or have you gone to the sidewalk shuffle where I posted the same thread and read any of the other comments by the other proffessional magicians?

have gone to the other Café and seen the huge body of magi with the same feelings?

if you arn't willing to see that there are problems and want to fix it obviously your are part of the problem.

and you have made this obvious to any one reading this.

did you ever think that if these pros were to come back that you may get more benifits from a large body of pros?

you see your hypersensitive defence is just driving more quality away from you.

I understand your self interest, but can't you see what could be more benificial?

mrunge, do you work professionally? I can't seem to find any promo of you.

are you a magician?

your very defencive and opinionated are you credible?

should I be apologizing or are you a hobbyist?

do you care about our art? do you want to make it better or do you want it to stay just the way it is?
Message: Posted by: E. S. Andrews (Sep 20, 2007 11:33AM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-14 12:40, mrunge wrote:
Well said, E.S. And...welcome to the Café!

Mark. :)
[/quote]

Thanks, mrunge.

And Talksalot,

I never said there weren't problems with the rings, I was just trying to point out that some of them get it right, just like others get it wrong. As for I.B.M. and other societies as a whole, I am not fit to judge them as my only experience has been with the ring I am a member of.

By all means, take Mr. McLeod's advice and leave the rings and start up something with the people who are like you. Give them what you feel they need and work towards your better future of magic. It could be a great thing. Just don't think that every member of the societies has been mistreated or is being wronged. And even though I'm not provided with any performance venues or free equipment, I am given the knowledge of those people who came before me and started their magic careers from the bottom up, with no monetary assistance from anyone. They give me the knowledge I need to go out and get restaurant gigs, or how to promote myself in order to net corporate work, or how to approach stage work.

Anyway, I once again wish you luck in changing the Societies into what you feel they should be, or in getting a fresh start with all the other people who are fed up with them, but everything in my neck of the woods is fine.
Message: Posted by: mrunge (Sep 20, 2007 12:01PM)
Once again, E.S., I agree. I am NOT a professional performer. I have "another job." Too bad that seems to be a problem you for Jimmy. I make no apologies for that. It is MY decision and if I were unhappy with it, I know I can make a change.

One doesn't have to be a professional to enjoy something or understand everything that takes place with it. Ever heard of "pick up" basketball? There are a LOT of players who enjoy the game and understand EVERYTHING about it, they just don't play in the NBA or do it for a living. What's the big deal with that? Same with magic.

I have been involved in magic for 25+ years. It is a hobby for me and I enjoy collecting, reading, learning and studying the "art of magic." It is a fascinating journey. Again, I am not a professional performer and have never wanted to be. I enjoy performing for those in my circle and the support that is freely given to me by others, both locally and nationally.

I work very hard with others, amateur and professional alike, in my area to make magic as enjoyable for all as possible. I have helped start a magic club, created an IBM ring and started a new annual convention. We will be holding our 2nd Annual May Magic Madness convention next year. Read the July issue (p. 47/48) of the Linking Ring for more about our group and convention. Not bad for an amateur.

If you are as unhappy with the current state of magic as you appear to be, why not work on changing it and become part of the solution instead of just complaining about it and being stuck in the problem?

Why not state, in plain English, what your problems are. From what I can tell, you seem to be upset that there is no retirement plan, insurance, etc...provided for those professional magicians who are now retired and have spent their days entertaining others. There are other issues and complaints you have as well. Some valid, some the results of choices made in life. There is, after all, no guarantee of anything in life and it is what you make of it.

Jimmy, I don't plan to continue to debate you and you are welcome to disagree with anything I say. That is totally fine and does NOT bother me at all.

I wish you the absolute best in life and hope you are totally happy with your choices in life and where you find yourself in your personal journey. I hope you can find a group of people to spend time with that works for you and is everything you hope it to be. I look forward to seeing your name in lights and hearing that you are a total success. You might already be, in which case that is fantastic. Congratulations! If not, yet, well good luck and all the best to you.

Your friend. Mark. :thumbsup:
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Sep 20, 2007 12:45PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-20 13:01, mrunge wrote:

If you are as unhappy with the current state of magic as you appear to be, why not work on changing it and become part of the solution instead of just complaining about it and being stuck in the problem?


Your friend. Mark. :thumbsup:
[/quote]

This is exactly what he is trying to do. You might think he's too course in the way he said it, but shortly after his original post a nice lady supported her argument by insulting his spelling. Then we get mad at Jimmy and Eric for being insulting.

I don't understand why it's so hard to understand what Jimmy's saying, he said it in the first post. He even said that his desire was for the magicians to work at bettering the groups.

Of course not that anyone will re-read his post and try to see it from the standpoint of someone genuinely trying to help. You might not like the way someone speaks, but that doesn't make the speech irrelevant.

Anyway, hes a street performer, they are all pretty harsh sometimes. But most of us could learn a lot from Jimmy. I know I do, at the other Café, he writes gold. Fortunately over there we don't have a bunch of guys who are terrified of getting somebody upset by saying anything remotely negative toward the establishment.

Regardless of your opinions on this matter, Jimmy has more experience and more interest in magic, magicians, and our future than most in this whole forum.


Also, there might be 10 out of the 30,000+ people on this forum that would have the guts to actually go on the IBM forum and tell it like he sees it.

And I don't mean like a lot of people who will only say something they feel after several people have already said it, so they don't have to stand out.

Watch every thread. You have people gushing about a product, pages of it. Then one guy has the guts to say "Hey, it aint that great", then all the sudden dozens of guys suddenly get courageous enough to repeat him.....
Message: Posted by: Bill Thompson (Sep 20, 2007 01:48PM)
[quote]
are you a magician?

your very defencive and opinionated are you credible?

[b]should I be apologizing or are you a hobbyist?[/b]
[/quote]
My original reply here got zapped by the great outage... lets go again...

What is it about hobbyists that you hate, Jimmy? We have a great love of magic. We like to perform for others. We happen to have another career is all... Dai Vernon was a silhouette cutter. Jim Surprise who Jon Racherbaumer referred to as "old guard" is an attorney. So in your opinion neither of these two should be listened to, given any respect or called magicians simply because they weren't full time professionals? Think about that.

I could be wrong, but I imagine that since I am an amateur hobbyist you will dismiss me.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 20, 2007 04:43PM)
Mr. bill,

On the contrary I do not dismiss you or any other hobbiest. Thank you for taking the time to repost. I do not hate hobbiest. I just don't think they should be in charge and out ridiculing pros as tho they were pros themselves and by the way Vernon's hobby was silhouette cutting not the other way around and if I'm not mistaken the magic castle was his lively hood. and he had been known to do many gigs to support himself and his family all be it arguable.

My issue as I have stated over and over is that; the pro's should be in charge, because they know the ins and outs of being a full time magician better then a hobbiest.

HOBBIESTS SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING HOW TO BE A PRO!

The other problem of course is that many of the hobbiests aren't schooled enough in our tradition to even realize that there are problems in our magic societies and this thread is ample evidence of this. The attitude here, is that instead of bringing the societies back to pro and the glory days [if you will]. It has been suggested that we should leave them as what they have digressed to, amatuer gatherings. This is sad. What hope for the amature or potential.

Jon Racherbaumer is a friend of mine and he holds court on Monday nights.[nites of slieghts] He is a pro, therefore he does NOT hold meetings on WEEK ENDS, hence he gets an alarming amount of pros to show up and do show case. He holds meetings in New Orleans at "Benagan's" on the west bank. Further I believe Jon or someone of his caliber, should be president of one of the locals instead of what has happened in the past. eg. There was a rich guy who had studied magic for 1 year and bought a huge amount of magic and ran for president and won. hmm. And by the by I have been known to organize some rings myself, if you look it up. If you hold the view that I just sit back and complain, please look into my background. oh yeh and mister bill, I see that you are out there in Mississippi, I would urge you to go to one of Jon's meetings in New Orleans and see if I'm telling any truth here I love his meetings you always come out of there feeling like a million bucks tell him I said "hey" and look for Joe Harrison that guy is amazing and a full time pro who every body learns a lot from and while your there, talk to Eddie Adams or Earle Christenberry they're up in age and they remember how things used to be or you can just buy one of Mr. Earle's books on it.

good luck to you and thanks again for posting.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 20, 2007 06:47PM)
So you’re complaint is that Non Pro’s are running the clubs?
You said

[quote]
“eg. there was a rich guy who had studied magic for 1 yr. and bought a huge amount of magic and ran for pres. and won.”
[/quote]

So did he rig the election? Was there a better qualified “Professional Magician” who was running against him? Did this guy do a bad job administrating the day to day operation of the club? Would the “Working Pro” have done it any better?

How long have you been I magic? Have you noticed that working pro’s don’t tend to go to meetings as they are generally working? We have a few fulltime and part time pro’s in our club but they are definitely in the minority and they certainly aren’t at every meeting. I myself haven’t been to a club meeting for the last three months because of gig conflicts. Given a choice between attending a meeting and earning some green which do you think a working magus is going to choose?

Really it sounds like you’re trying to pound a square peg into a round hole here. The magic societies were created for both the novice and the enthusiast. Even at the height of the golden age of magic there weren’t enough “Professionals” to completely and competently populate a group like the IBM or SAM. They’ve always relied upon the Hobbyists to fill out their ranks. Sure the ratio of professional to hobbyist has changed over the years and the overall membership numbers of the various clubs have plummeted since the heyday of the fraternal organization back in the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s. But you’re wanting the clubs to become something that they never truly were.

You want a club geared for and run by real world workers? Then start your own. Trying to mold the existing IBM or SAM into the “Professional” based organizations you wish them to be simply isn’t gong to happen. Who’s going to run the day to day operations of the group? Running a club is a whole lot different than just holding a sessioning session at a local pub on a weekly basis. There are dues to collect, newsletters to publish, events to plan and hold. Most “Pro’s” haven’t got the time to be involved in this sort of thing and so they let those dreaded amateurs run things.

Sure, sometimes this leads to problems, especially if you elect as an officer some wannabe who struts around pretending to be something he ain’t. But that’s why you have term limits. So you can vote the bums out.
Really I can’t see that you have any valid argument here. You don’t like the club you’ve got? Work to change it or start a new one. Certainly the national SAM or IBM isn’t going to get involved on a local level. They’re busy doing whatever it is that they do.

I think it would be a safe wager to say that over 75% of the membership of both the IBM and the SAM have never performed for more than family or friends, let alone for money. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but where would these people go in your “Clubs geared to the Professional” world? Would they just sit in the back and be quiet and kowtow to your greater knowledge and wisdom?
Magic enthusiasts and hobbyists are what keep the magic world going. They attend shows and lectures and buy books and tricks. Many full time “Pro’s” make a good living selling to hobbyists.

We all have our place in the world of magic and the magic club is where we all can reside.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 20, 2007 09:25PM)
You said,

"Magic enthusiasts and hobbyists are what keep the magic world going. They attend shows and lectures and buy books and tricks. Many full time “Pro’s” make a good living selling to hobbyists"

this mind set is what got the guy elected president. This is what changed the clubs and this is what made the ROUND HOLE. Yes he did a bad job and the biggest excuse he had was that he didn't have enough time because of his real job. You see just because your not doing magic for a living your still doing some thing for a living to take up your time. And here's a suggestion how about meetings on week days instead of week ends? In the old days you needed to go to most magic shops with another magi or prove you were one. You see magic didn't go out with Vaudeville something happened inside of the art here in the states. Someone believed that it was just a hobby and you couldn't treat it like a real business and others, worse yet never held it sacred.
They did, in the old days, and there are still those who believe this and they're making a fine living today. These are things that the societies are supposed to be teaching. There's a lady president who posted here and if you look at the posts you'll see the praises from her followers, and she has stated here that she is a full time pro. She must have figured out how to force that square peg!
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 20, 2007 11:37PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-20 22:25, jimmy talksalot wrote:
You said,

"Magic enthusiasts and hobbyists are what keep the magic world going. They attend shows and lectures and buy books and tricks. Many full time “Pro’s” make a good living selling to hobbyists"

this mind set is what got the guy elected pres.
[/quote]
So who ran against this guy?
Was it a full time pro?
What makes you think a full time pro would be any better at running a club than a non professional magician?
[quote]
this is what changed the clubs and this is what made the ROUND HOLE.

yes he did a bad job and the biggest excuse he had was that he didn't have enough time because of his real job.

you see just because your not doing magic for a living your still doing some thing for a living to take up your time.
[/quote]
The few full time pro's I know are far too busy to run a club. They're usually on the road or out doing gig's. Their schedules are apt to change at the last minute so they can't dependably make it to meetings, lectures or events. At least your average working Joe who has a 9 to 5 hasn't got this problem.
[quote]
and here's a suggestion how about meetings on week days instead of week ends?
[/quote]
Great suggestion. Why don't you bring it up at your next meeting and take a vote on it? Our club meets on a Thursday because many of us are out working on the weekends.
[quote]
in the old days you needed to go to most magic shops with another magi or prove you were one.
[/quote]
Not in your lifetime, not in my lifetime nor in anyones lifetime that's alive today.
Physicians also used to believe that illness was caused by bad air or evil spirits. Life moves on and just because it used to happen one way doesn't mean that this was necessarily the best way or the way it has to occur today.
[quote]
you see magic didn't go out with vaudville something happened inside of the art here in the states.

someone believed that it was just a hobby and you couldn't treat it like a real business.
[/quote]
No reason it can't be both. There are amateur theatrical troupes all over the country. I don't see serious theatre being harmed by the practise. Garage bands abound but professional concerts still are being sold out.
[quote]
and others, worse yet never held it sacred.
[/quote]
Is it sacred?
[quote]
they did,
[/quote]
They? Who's they? Most of the old time golden age magicians you seem to hold in such high esteem didn't hold it sacred. It was strictly business and they'd have sold their own mothers for a buck. The only reason they tried to keep it an exclusive club was to limit the competition.
[quote]
in the old days, and there are still those who believe this and they're making a fine living today.
[/quote]
And more power to them. This however seems to have little to do with how a magic society is run.
[quote]
these are things that the societies are supposed to be teaching.
[/quote]
Says who? I thought the societies were social clubs where those who had an interest in magic could meet with like minded folk. Not everyone who goes to a club meeting wants to be a full time worker. Some are just enthusiasts who like to show off a trick in front of their Friends or just sit back and watch others perform. Others are collectors others interested in the history of magic. A healthy club tries to cater to the interests of all its members, just not that upper echelon of the full time worker.
[quote]
there's a lady pres. who posted here and if you look at the posts you'll see the praises from her followers, and she has stated here that she is a full time pro.

she must have figured out how to force that square peg!
[/quote]
It can be done but that doesn't mean it has to be done the same way for every club.
You don't like the way your club is being run? Get in and change it. You don't like the way the national organization works? Get involved and change it.
I really don't see you offering any positive suggestions as to how you'd get things to change. Only that you think that they should. Give us a business plan on how you'd alter the organizations structure and the benefits of doing so and perhaps someone would take you a bit more seriously.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 21, 2007 12:21AM)
you know I was gonna respond to mr.payne's post.

but after rereading it a couple of times I can see that it would be futile to think that anything positive could happen without a long super exstencive banter back and forth.

besides I think Josh Riel had had answered all this in his post just a few up.

thanks josh, but I think I'm beating a dead horse again. I've had a barrage of mail telling me that I am, but I'm stubborn I guess.

mr. payne if you would like you can read over all my posts on this thread I have answered all your arguments there to my satisfaction, if not yours.

and I loved your site, I like how you can can click on the different characters you have. I hope the best for you in your business.
Message: Posted by: E. S. Andrews (Sep 21, 2007 09:42AM)
So, in the fewest sentences possible, what are a few things that you think would help prevent people from leaving the Societies. Lets say, the top five.

p.s. I am currently trying to become a member at the other forum so I can veiw the posts there on the subject. I screwed up the whole e-mail first thing, so it may be a while.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 21, 2007 10:14AM)
Mr. Andrews,

Thanks for the interest in my view I have written the below for you and any one else who may have missed the original post. Well if you reread the first post I wrote that started all this hooplah, you will see a huge body of things that we could do.

I'm not being sarcastic and I'm not trying to get out of the question because I have no suggestions on the contrary I have a lot I just didn't want to have to repeat all of it. You see, I think I bit off more then I can chew with this thread. I wasn't aware that I would have to explain this step by step to so many over and over again I'm getting a little frustrated. I'm sorry.

I HAVE GIVIN MANY SUGGESTIONS ON THE ORIGINAL POST ON PG. 1. PLEASE GO TO PAGE 1. AND READ MY FIRST AND SECOND POST.

SORRY IF I'M COMMING OFF LIKE A JERK.

Others have also suggested things and if you go to the sidewalk shuffle they have suggested things and of course on the other Café. but sincerely thank you for the interest.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 21, 2007 11:35AM)
All right then let's reply to your original post

[quote]
On 2007-09-04 17:43, jimmy talksalot wrote:
So here it is;

well for those of you who have had any dealings with the magic societies this ain't new to you.

they suck,

[/quote]

Some do, others don't. It really is all under the control of the local members and what they want to put into or get out of their club. I don't really see how a national organization can control the quality of each and every chapter.
The society's are a federation of clubs not a totalitarian state.

[quote]

they have digressed from their original glory as a faternity

[/quote]

So have every other fraternal orgainisation. When was the last time you saw a Mason who was under the age of sixty?

[quote]

usually at best it's a bunch of old timers who want respect but have failed on providing any of their obligations. and who showed little respect to the ones before them.

[/quote]

So they haven't digressed from their original glory as a faternity. You had me worried there for a minute.

[quote]

they also think we arn't aware of what they are supposed to be providing.

venues, performance halls, practice studios, practical working material instead of packet close up tricks

[/quote]

Where is it written that anyone has to provide any of these things? Where is the proof that the majority of the clubs ever provided these services in the past?
Most of these things cost money. A lot more money than your typical club member is willing to spend. Sure if you want your club dues to increase from say $15.00 to $350.00 a year you might be able to swing some of this stuff. But really most everyone in the club just wants to hang out with their magic buddies once or twice a month for as cheap as possible.

[quote]

they should be providing lectures from real workers more often.

[/quote]

My club hosts six to eight lectures a year. I don't think we could hold anymore than that. Most clubs hold as many lectures as they can afford. Smaller clubs often can't have as many lectures as the larger clubs simply because of the economics of the situation.

{quote]

if they want more money for this they should be providing the above mentioned so we could afford to give more.

[/quote]

This simply doesn't make any sense or are you saying that if they brought in more lectures you'd have access to more material to put in your act and thus make more money? Doesn't really work that way. Most lectures are a crap shoot and your not guaranteed to find anything of value to you at any particular one. Besides I'm sure most of the members of your club aren't workers and so they don't see any monetary gain from the lectures so more lectures for them simply means more out of pocket expense for them.

[quote]

heck years ago I provided venues, a performance space and practice studio for the local magi in el paso, tx. and I wasn't a teacher or a society recieving dues I was just a back yard show working guy. you can ask baltazar fuentes or jamie ohara about my magic shop there.

[/quote]

So what's stopping you from doing this now? You want these services and you've said that you've provided them in the past, why not offer up a plan to your club as to how you could work with them to provide them again?

[quote]

so these society guys have no excuses don't listen to them. if they need to go out of pocket they should they are supposed to be servants, I did and I wasn't elected to anything.

[/quote]

No they are officers of the club not servants, servants usually get paid.
Again if you've done beneficial things in the past what's stopping you now? It's beginning to sound to me like you've found yourself in a club whose not meeting your expectations. It happens. If you can't change it from within start your own group. My current club started out this way. A group was dissatisfied with how things were (or weren't) being run so they broke off and formed a new group. Trying to overhaul the entire national oraginsation simply because you got a bad local group is sorta throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[quote]

don't get me wrong we should also be getting more involved in good work and with money.

many sams and ibms have guys who barely know anything about magic yet they are our presidents and leaders because they got a lot of money from their "real jobs", the problem is they ain't spreadin it around to help us indure the pain of them bein there.

[/quote]

I don't think money has anything to do with who gets elected president of the local group. It's mainly a popularity contest or roping someone into the position. I know getting anyone to come forward and be president of our club is like pulling teeth. we actually haven't had a real election in years as we can only coerce one candidate to run for president at a time. Reading between the lines it sounds like you were running for the job and didn't get it which makes all these postings sour grapes.

[quote]

when you go to these places all you see is a bunch of guys with cards in their hands pretending....where the hell do they work any way?

[/quote]

They don't. they are hbbiests and enthusiets. As I said before if you limited the membership to full time workers you'd have no one in your club.

[quote]

if were gonna act like we are the other society or the renegades who don't need one then we should behave twice as good as them to get crediblity and so we don't screw up beginners heads.

if we reject the societies we should never become the same problem.

with all that said the proper thing to do of course is to try and correct the problems in the sam,ibm,taom, and all the others that we have come into.

we should be cleaning house.

[/quote]

Have fun with that. Change comes from within and you've got to start small and work your way slowly up. to do otherwise will alienate everyone as you can clearly see from the responses you've gotten so far.
Message: Posted by: Bill Thompson (Sep 21, 2007 01:25PM)
Jimmy said:
[quote]we should be cleaning house.[/quote]

Kick out all the rich guys, amateurs, and hobbyists sit in the back of the room with their mouths shut. This is what it sounds like. Kicking out the rich guys could cut off a source of income for your club. Their money is what props up a lot clubs.

The first time our club decided to do a public show on our own and not affiliated with the Shrine Clowns was last year. To get a venue we had to come up with a lot of money up front. the club budget was busted. A couple of our more affluent members stepped forward and put up the cash. Our public show was roaring success and this year we had the money to get the venue in the budget. If we had cleaned house those guys wouldn't have been there to help.

We have lecturers come speak and we pay for them... but if we got rid of all the hobbyists and amateurs like myself there wouldn't be any reason to have the lecturers there they wouldn't sell anything and there wouldn't be enough in attendance to pay the lecture fee.

You want to kill an assembly or ring off? Well, you just get rid of the backbone of that club and it will surely go down the tubes.

I think your intentions are to make a clubs for working professionals only, that's fine... why don't you take charge of all these "renegade" organizations and call them The Jimmy Talksalot Club For Professionals Only? Have a sign out front that says beginners, amateurs, hobbyists and rich guys need not apply. oh, and you can be the Grand Poo-Bah of the whole shebang... for life.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 21, 2007 01:51PM)
O.k. I will repeat myself one more time,

1.this is not isolated to one club....i am a traveller [street performer].

2.i wrote this originally in the other Café where I write articles. I wrote this because I was getting accused of being a blind loyalist to the clubs in my various other articles.

there is such a large body of magi who have these same feelings or worse that I was becoming discredited by association. I have heard these complaints by many, all my life. I am 40. I am baffled that you have never heard the same.

so I posted it where the societies could read it I thought unwittingly it would be helpful for them to know and they would try and fix the problem instead of protecting their position.

mr. payne I am not the enemy, I am on your side. BUT dismissing this LARGE body of magi with complaints is not doing anybody any good.

critisizing me is only reinforcing that they were right all along. you see I was warned.

proof mr. payne? I have provide references through out the thread and actual living people that witnessed with their own eyes. please don't make it my job to jump around and copy and paste all these things for you.

my suggestion is simply ask some of the very old you come in contact with, if any of the things I have said are true.

and everyone is aware that any suggestions I would give to you, you would reject as absurd or out dated....as you have already displayed. you see this is a trophy for you.

this is not for me this is for our art and lifes work.

saddly I think mr. payne your views have brought us to the condition we're in so it's no wonder you seem to think every thing's roses.

ironically as you try and convince that everything is alright your writing is very negative and rittled with defeatism,nilism,settling for less and lacking wit.

sincerly I have not said this to make you mad, in fact quite the contrary I just felt you would prefer honesty.

see the post in sidewalk shuffle or go to the other Café to find some of these magi who have been blown off.


you see I have said it and you can say anything you want to try and discredit it this is an open forum.

but I assure you these sentiments are not going away.

because there are a lot of us who have done our home work wether or not you agree with it.

we have seen and been confronted with these things been blown off so much that it ain't gonna work anymore.

and yes saddly we have had to make our own clubs.

if you have any more questions I feel confident that they have already been answered through out the thread by me or others.

or may be you could just take a little time and investigate with an open mind some things I have suggested.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 21, 2007 02:11PM)
I really could care less how the other clubs or the national organizations are run. I don't belong to SAM, IBM or any other big organization. I don't go to any club meetings other than my own. My club runs to my, and the members satisfaction. We host lectures, hold events, have a youth organization that teaches magic to kids. We have a yearly show in the spring and a mini convention in the fall. Several times a year our meetings are devoted to trick and presentation workshops. You can have your performance critiqued every month if you so choose. We have a very active and diverse group. I'm sure that we're a cut above your average magic club.

Think Globally, Act Locally.

A club is only as good as it's membership and change of this sort comes from the bottom up not the top down.

Perhaps change is needed out there. I don't know as I've never been involved with another club apart from attending an occasional event they might put on.

So rally your troups and get busy and enact those changes you so desperately want. No one is gong to do it for you.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 21, 2007 02:21PM)
Misterbill,

I can see that you don't understand my position I never said to throw out rich guys nor hobbiests. So I'll say this again through copy and paste!


"my issue as I have stated over and over is that; the pro's should be in charge, because they know the ins and outs of being a full time magician better then a hobbiest.

"HOBBIESTS SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING HOW TO BE A PRO!"

Please use reading instead of emotion to dicipher what I am saying. my gad it must be my bad spelling. your whole post is a missrepresentation of my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 21, 2007 05:10PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-21 15:21, jimmy talksalot wrote:

"my issue as I have stated over and over is that;

the pro's should be in charge, because they know the ins and outs of being a full time magician better then a hobbiest.

[/quote]

You're assuming that a full time worker

A. Is better qualified to run a club than a hobbyist
B. Wants to hold an office in the club
C. Has the time to run a club

You're also assuming that just because someone makes their living performing magic that they know what they are doing. This isn't always true. We've got a guy who lives in these parts who is by definition a Full Time Working Pro. It is his only source of income apart from the money he gets every few years from suing the city when they try to prohibit him from performing and making balloons for the kiddies on public property. Yes, he's that bad. He's the type of magician that once you hire him, you'll never hire another as long as you live. But since he's a full time worker he's more than qualified to run a club and instruct others in the performance of magic. Right?


[quote]

"HOBBIESTS SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING HOW TO BE A PRO!"

[/quote]

Agreed. But you're always going to get this type of behavior, especially in the entertainment business. It happens in all of the branches of the art. I've seen it occur in amateur theater, music as well as magic. Anyplace you get wannabees you're going to encounter those who think they know better. Restricting who's entitled to run a club isn't going to make this problem go away. You'll simply have them sniping in the back instead of the front.

The truth of the matter is that in most of the country you can't run a club without the help of the amateur the hobbyist and the enthusiast. There simply aren't enough professionals to do the job
Message: Posted by: cmwalden (Sep 21, 2007 11:44PM)
I already feel myself regretting this post, but I've also seen this sort of thinking float around. One of the difficulties is that some people seem to see magic clubs as a professional organization and others seem to see them as fan/support organizations. I've even heard some discuss magic clubs as though they ought to be like some sort of Medieval guild. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild )

I've seen cynicism on all sides and for me it all boils down to two questions:
1. What do I want from this?
2. What am I willing to do?

What I want changes. I don't think I'm nearly where many are here in my magic business. I work at my art and I work to grow my business. Many things about growing business seem to have little to do with art and more in common with... say... opening a coffee shop. I've determined that beyond some very high-level networking a magical society is not really about growing my business.

I do enjoy spending time with people who understand something about why I am a magician. I also enjoy the opportunity to deal with people who are growing themselves and helping them to explore their interests and build their skills without hitting every single pothole that I did along the way. However I also encounter many people in these environments who seem to have something to prove. "I work harder." "I work more." "I'm more true to the art." "I'm more creative." etc., etc., etc. Yet I've seen that sort of behavior in every single interest group that I've every encountered. There's just something about groups of humans that accentuates their qualities, whether good or bad.

Magic clubs in general are probably a pretty poor soil for growing a magic business-- unless you want to sell tricks to magicians. A professional organization would probably be focused on things like providing insurance (liability and health, etc), legal and business assistance, travel deals, prospect lists, contact services, etc.. It would be more like a magical chamber of commerce than what we see in a magic club. (But, if you've ever been involved with such an organization you see their weaknesses too.)

I stay with magic clubs because they feed my flame of enthusiasm about magic and remind me of when it was all just adventure. I try to bend myself around the politics and the people who are there to broker power. I try to connect with people who can broaden my horizons and who want something that I can provide. I don't see a magic club as an obligation any more. When I don't feel like going, I don't. That's been very healthy and I do it without guilt or apology.

Groucho Marx once said that "“I won't belong to any organization that would have me as a member.” I guess that applies here. When I first encountered magic the people who I saw as magicians were demigods. (Although J.B. Bobo was the first schoolshow magician I ever saw.) Then as I grew I began to see the cracks and the weaknesses in the people and the structure and it just wasn't as grand any more. Now the magic community can be a little bittersweet and it can be very sad at times.

As others have said, no one can really change everything with a sweep of the wand, or even an Internet post. All they can do is work to positively influence the people in their circle and teach them to keep that wave moving outward. I think Jeff McBride and Eugene Burger have tried to do this and I have seen positive things come from people who have taken that part of their teachings seriously. If we as individuals vow to have a "pay it forward" lifestyle and do what we can while encouraging others to do the same when it is their turn then these things change. They won't change for everyone and not at the same time. But they will change for us.

I think this has been a healthy, though sometimes aggressive discussion. We should care about the organizations that we spend our time with and whether that time is well spent. We should feel free to participate to our fullest and make demands of our organizations. If the results are worth the effort then we should make the effort. If they are not then we should be willing to walk away with no guilt. Magicians flourished before there were magic clubs. They can also grow with them and in them.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 22, 2007 02:29AM)
cmwalden,

wow, that was really well put.

thank you.
Message: Posted by: E. S. Andrews (Sep 22, 2007 10:02AM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-22 03:29, jimmy talksalot wrote:

cmwalden,

wow, that was really well put.

thank you.
[/quote]

I agree completely. Like I said before, if I want advice on where and how to get work, I ask the pros in the club. If I want information on products and new tricks I consult with the amateurs and hobbyist. It all works together to give me the broadest possible horizons. Pros know how to go out and get and keep jobs, but they have very little new material. Amateurs and hobbyist don't know a thing about how to get a resturaunt manager to spend what little extra money they have coming in on a magician, but they are always on top of the latest thing to hit the magic market and
how it was the first thing they've fooled their spouse with in over a month. The magic club is the only place I know of that has that sort of mix. The best definition I have ever gotten for the two is that a pro finds new audiences for his
same old tricks, while and amateur finds new tricks for his same old audience.

I think they are still a great place to go to learn from the pros, but you are right, the clubs and societies really have very little to offer the veteran performer, which will drive some pros away, which will leave new magicians without a voice of experience to guide them. I believe that is closer to your point than I have been lately. If that is the case then I agree that something should be reworked to keep the pros more interested.

And if I am completely off the mark, do forgive me, it has been a long week.
Message: Posted by: G.Gilbert (Oct 2, 2007 01:58AM)
Here I go again sticking my nose where it dosnt belong

We have few rings out here but I won't say wich clubs.. I heard it's basically a bunch of guys who get together and show eachother tricks. Im sure its a lot of fun, if your retired and don't have anything better to do.. But I would love to be a part of a club who actually helped me and took care of me... I look at magic as a movement.

"Magicians Helping Magicians"
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Oct 3, 2007 02:26PM)
Mr.andrews said,
"I think they are still a great place to go to learn from the pros, but you are right, the clubs and societies really have very little to offer the veteran performer, which will drive some pros away, which will leave new magicians without a voice of experience to guide them. I believe that is closer to your point than I have been lately. If that is the case then I agree that something should be reworked to keep the pros more interested."

I would say that's it, but I do not feel that they are still a good place to go learn from pros, but they were in the past, along time ago. I feel many have been driven away over the years. But my respect goes to those pros who have stuck it out.

one other thing I would mention is that the amatuer may in fact learn a lot of fresh material and be very dextarious and have all the mechanics down but a huge portion of them are lacking in any serious peformance skills [move monkeys or hackers] the reason is the lack of stage time and all the complexities that's goes along with it.

Small suggestion if your looking for a pro don't bother going to a meeting on a sat or sun unless he's lecturing there because a pro would be working on the weekend.

Find the local meetings on a weekday.
Message: Posted by: amazin (Oct 4, 2007 11:49AM)
What difference does it make who's running the ring as long as you keep learning
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 4, 2007 12:08PM)
That question has been answered multiple times from several point of view.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Oct 4, 2007 12:23PM)
Amazin,

my gad man, didn't you read any of the posts on this thread? from either point of view?
Message: Posted by: amazin (Oct 5, 2007 08:07AM)
All that I'm saying is learning from hobbyists or pros's is still learning. although I agree that "HOBBIESTS SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING HOW TO BE A PRO. I still believe that running the show is a lot of work. Are you saying there is nothing you could learn from them? I know I learn something from everyone I talk to.
Message: Posted by: harris (Oct 5, 2007 09:21AM)
Our Ring 129 has Magiversity once a year for the last 3 years.

Pro's and Hobbiest are the instructors. Last night we had another regular meeting. I was able to make it and was glad I did. A mixture of experience was present. A mini lecture on use of EBAY was presented. Myself, I took the opportunity to take part of my new "Things That Bug Me" out for a test drive. There were 2 after the meeting meetings. One took place in the hotel bar, the other group went to Applebees. Both groups had a mix of pro's and hobbiest. One of the people in the Applebees group had a background in theatre as well as magic. (Theatre was my roots as well)

Be safe ..well and creative...

Harris
proud member of ring 129..
(both myself and the ring have lots of room to grow.
Message: Posted by: E. S. Andrews (Oct 5, 2007 10:27AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-03 15:26, jimmy talksalot wrote:

small suggestion if your lookin for a pro don't bother goin to a meeting on a sat or sun unless he's lecturing there because a pro would be workin on the weekend.

find the local meetings on a weekday.
[/quote]

That I know. Most of the pros are never around on the weekend, and most of the time they are out of state, but they do crop up on the odd weekend every now and then and are a good resource. And without the belonging to the ring I would never had had an oportunity to get to know them.
Some weekday meetings would be good for letting others get to know them and for attracting more pros to learn from. It is a good idea to pitch to the higher ups in the ring.
Message: Posted by: harris (Oct 5, 2007 11:17AM)
Our meetings are the 1st Thursday of the Month. Can't make em all even on a weeknight. During the Summer I am involved in a Professional Theatre Group.

harri9s (the 9 is silent)
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Oct 5, 2007 11:49AM)
Amazin,
you said, "Are you saying there is nothing you could learn from them?"

What brought you to believe I or any one could think that? I can only hope that you were just taking a jab at me. NO I DO NOT THINK THAT.

I think this must be a test to see if my posts are going to be consistent or you just refuse to read any of my other posts or you can't understand me or you simply disagree and are trying to make me angry because you don't have a strong enough argument to show that I am wrong. So for the sake of our art I'll answer this again as I have answered it many many times already. I'm not going to copy and paste the first one because maybe you did not understand it in the previous posts.

the answer is;

Sure, you are learning and that's important, but wouldn't it be better to be learning from a pro? You see the hobbiests have a mixture of error and truth and if your a beginner you wont know how to weed through this stuff.and those errors cost you time, money, and patience, not to mention what it does to us if you're failing and sure the pro's have errors but a lot less. Get it? This is about credability and trying to achieve greatness with the finest tools we can get. NOT WHAT WE'LL SETTLE FOR. As far as pro's not having the time or it being to much work or don't have the skills, I've answered this one over and over again. But I'll do it again, here I've even copied and pasted for you one of them;

"you see just because your not doing magic for a living your still doing some thing for a living TO TAKE UP YOUR TIME."

so there is no difference between hobbiests and pros they both got jobs that take up their time. but one is in the field of what we do.....do you get it? so this is about pro's being responsable and not giving excuses why they can't get involved and why we have a choice to not have amatuers running our societies. I'm not trying to be a jerk to you, honestly. I'm just frustrated because I've had to repeat what I'm saying so many times through out the thread to so many over and over but I'll do it if it will help. but if you're gonna argue with me please bring up something new instead of the same old song and dance. I ASSURE YOU'RE NEXT QUESTION IS PROBABLY ALREADY ANSWERED SOME WHERE IN THIS THREAD. please take the time because so many of us took our time for you when we put them there.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 5, 2007 01:39PM)
You keep making the assumption that if a person makes his full time living performing magic that

A: They have an obligation to share their knowledge
B: Are any good at performing
C: Know the first thing about teaching or mentoring
D: Are any better than administering a club than a non professional

None of these are necessarily true.

I don't see why the Societies need to be responsible for seeing that professional magicians impart their knowledge to anyone.

You want to learn from a Pro? Take a Master Class or one of Bob Fitch's Workshops.
the Societies are social clubs, not institutes of education.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Oct 5, 2007 03:43PM)
Payne,

If they are supposed to be societies for magicians they should be magicians.

And if they aren't any of these things you say, I'm assuming it's still more reasonable that a pro would be at least attempting these things instead of an amatuer.

After reading all your posts, I think you have just settled into the idea that this is the way it is now and we should just sit in the muk and settle for it. I'm sorry I just don't feel this way.

and by the by,

magicians do have an obligation to share their knowledge with those that show a sincer desire to learn and can be trusted.

If not that, to leave behind a student or legacy at least. That's being a magician 1-0-1 and if you had been properly instructed in our tradition you would have known that.

If your a pro and aren't doing any thing to help our art just remember this is reflecting on all of us.

We are all aware of the alternatives that unfortunately had to be brought about because of ineptness, but why aren't we trying to fix anything?

one last thing, I don't know what made you think that I was just assuming and had never investigated this opinion or had just pulled it off the top of my head and just blurted out anything my mouth could construct. You see I've been thinking about it my whole life and I'm a traveler and I've found that there is a large body of magi with the same understanding. I mean those that take our art seriously.

You see I might be wrong but I'm not assuming anything. Are you assuming?

I know I'm not the brightest and have been wrong a lot so what ever it was that made you think that, I'm sorry, but please don't let it effect the opinions of the people I've been sticking up for.

Posted: Oct 5, 2007 4:44pm
And they are not supposed to be imparting to "anyone" just themselves.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Oct 5, 2007 05:15PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-05 16:43, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Payne,

If they are supposed to be societies for magicians they should be magicians.

[/quote]
Says who?
What are we then to do with the Collector, the Historian, the Fan and all the other people who make the world of magic what it is but have no desire or aptitude to perform?
[quote]
And if they aren't any of these things you say I'm assuming it's still more reasonable that a pro would be at least attempting these things instead of an amatuer.
[/quote]
These assumptions don't necessarily pan out. As I've said before I know full time working magicians whose advice would be detrimental to follow and amateurs who have much valuable knowledge to impart. Being a Professional Magician is no more a guarantee of being a skilled performer than being the president of a magic club does.
[quote]
after reading all your posts, I think you have just settled into the idea that this is the way it is now and we should just sit in the muk and settle for it....i'm sorry I just don't feel this way.
[/quote]
I've said no such thing. As I've said before your goals are all admiral goals to strive for but what you're seeking needs to be a bottom up change not a top down implementation. I really see no way that the Heads of the various Societies could ever successfully instigate new rules which proclaimed that no Hobbyist was ever to instruct anyone on how to be a Pro, nor make sure that the Professional Magicians in their ranks were actively and correctly instructing the membership with their magical knowledge.
These organizations are after all run pretty much by volunteers. If you start putting excessive requirements on the membership they simply are going to go away and join clubs that better suit their purpose.
We all get the clubs we deserve. We get out of them what we put into them. My club is very active, has a good mix or Pro to non Pro, actively teaches and sponsors lectures, holds special events and provides community service. There is really nothing we as a club can do to make sure any of our sister organizations do the same thing, nor is there any reason we should.
[quote]
and by the by,

magicians do have an obligation to share their knowledge with those that show a sincer desire to learn and can be trusted.

If not that, to leave behind a student or legacy at least. That's being a magician 1-0-1 and if you had been properly instructed in our tradition you would have known that.

if your a pro and aren't doing any thing to help our art just remember this is reflecting on all of us.
[/quote]
Sorry must have missed the memo that said that I was responsible for sharing my knowledge with others. Not that I don't. I have had effects published in many of the major magic journals, Lectured, taught at club meetings and have shared my knowledge with most who ask. I do all of this voluntarily for my own personal reasons not because of someone else's belief that we are some how obligated to do so.
[quote]
we are all aware of the alternatives that unfortunately had to be brought about because of ineptness, but why aren't we trying to fix anything.
[/quote]
You keep referring to these mythical clubs that existed in the halcyon days of yore. Club who were ruled over by benevolent Professionals who carefully tended to their flock of amateurs conjurers. Carefully and thoughtfully guiding their ever move and dolling out their mystical knowledge to only those who truly deserved to acquire such arcane knowledge.
Have you ever ead an old issue of MUM of TLR? The clubds you keep describing NEVER EXISTED. IBM and SAM have always been social, good ol' boy networks which were run pretty much the same way the clubs are run today.
[quote]
One last thing I don't know what made you think that I was just assuming and had never investigated this opinion or had just pulled it off the top of my head and just blurted out anything my mouth could construct. You see I've been thinking about it my whole life and I'm a traveler and I've found that there is a large body of magi with the same understanding. I mean those that take our art seriously.
[/quote]
You keep referring to all of these magi that have the same understanding as you. then why not try to unify these individuals into a cohesive organization and show us all how it's done?
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Oct 5, 2007 09:18PM)
Payne,

Once again your post is one big bowl of sunshine. Many have understood my position and disagreed completely and that's fine. But you are not understanding my position and that's fine too. I'm tired of trying to explain, read josh's post or how about you win, ok? You out typed me.
Message: Posted by: abercrombe (Dec 9, 2007 01:48AM)
WOW!!! I read the chapter on the One Big Happy Family in Tommy Wonders Book of Wonders and Jimmy you should read the article. Working pros and magicians that have studied the books, learned the effects, put in the hard work and sweat to perfect them are going to hand over all their hard work to someone who doesn't want to put in the effort. You will get a better response from them if you ask them what book did you learn that from instead of show me how to do that.
Most magic clubs have members who are there for different reasons. The die-hards who come to every meeting and perform, the ones that like to socialize and do a little magic. Then there is a group that comes if there is nothing else going on, after all, where else could I go to be entertained 12 times a year for twenty dollars. There is nothing wrong with any of these scenarios, its what they can give. If you feel that everyone in the club should be as into it as much as you are, then you will be disappointed. Marias letter was right on the mark. I belong to the IBM and have been Sec., V.P., and Pres. I have written newsletters, Ring reports, lectured and performed in club shows, but so have many others in the club. I'm not unique but I find I enjoy the club more if I involve myself in its operation. And when people get involved with their club magic is shared and people have the opportunity to learn something new. Sure, I have run into a few that act like they know more than they do and only hang out with others like them. They are not involved in magic or a clubs business. Don't judge others by their philosopys. Try to enjoy magic and don't let the negative things stress you out.
Best
Abe
Message: Posted by: JohntheMagician (Dec 17, 2007 10:05AM)
Well now where to begin. First off I am in total agreement with the numerous posts that went along the lines of "You Get Out What You Put In". My local Ring was kinda slow and a little dull when I joined a few years ago. The Membership was sagging and a lot of people were just hanging in.

Now while I am not a "Professional" magician, I do have a love of magic and would liek to make it a semi-pro {birthday / busking} hobby as it were. So I and a few others of they slightly younger crowd {22-35} joined up around the same time, and we decided to take matters into our own hands. With the help of the Club President, we got new lectures, some great roundtable discussion groups going, a few workshops up and here it is 2 years later. I have just been elected President, and with a long list of things I want to acomplish have my work cust out for me next year. As long as one person says Hey John nice job I learned something, then I have done my job.

Usually doing things for a group is a thankless job, but your group will never get beter if everyone just sits there and complains and no one actually works at making a difference.

One person acn make a difference if that one person really wants to ...
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 18, 2007 03:28AM)
Jimmytalksalot wrote:
[quote]
eg. there was a rich guy who had studied magic for 1 yr. and bought a huge amount of magic and ran for pres. and won.
[/quote]
Are you referring to a man who was the president of the IBM a few years back, or are you referring to a fellow who was the president of the local ring?

I'm very curious about this reference.

Posted: Dec 29, 2007 2:53am
It looks like Jimmy has dropped out of the discussion. So, I'll tackle this allegation about the "rich guy who had studied magic for 1 yr. and bought a huge amount of magic and ran for pres. and won."

If the reference here is to a fellow who was the International President several years ago, who has one of the largest magic collections in the world, then your information is absolutely false.

The man I'm thinking of has been in magic for a long time. Most people don't know that. He was in the service for several years, an officer, and did shows at the Officers' Clubs at the various bases where he was stationed. After leaving the service, he went to work as an investment banker. He did television commercials for them with is wife as his assistant. He was not the most skilled performer I've seen, but at least he could do the material he presented.

Yep. He's rich. He inherited a business from his father, and seeing that the business supported a lot of families in the area, he left the banking business and learned the new one. He sold his product intensively over a five state area, increasing the business considerably and making it more successful. He also started a magic shop that dealt in vintage magic.

To become the International President of the IBM is not a "run for president and you get it" kind of thing. It takes several years of climbing a ladder of rank to do it. You have to serve as a Territorial Representative. Then you become a Vice President. At that point you run for president. You become president-elect. Then you become president. It's a 3 - 5 year procedure. So the idea that "this rich who had done magic for about a year bought a bunch of magic tricks and ran for president" is purely bogus.

Remember, I'm assuming that Jimmy was referring to this particular fellow, even though most of his argument is gone.

Assuming this is the same fellow, he sponsors lectures in the area where his collection is located, and has devoted a large amount of his time to helping magicians learn about magic and giving them a venue where they can perform at some of the meetings and lectures held at his place.

The main reason he ran for president of the IBM was to help straighten out what he perceived to be some problems with the business aspect of the organization. He ruffled a lot of feathers. Some people don't like to change the way they do things.

But to say that he had done magic for a year and then ran for president and won is silly and ignorant.
Message: Posted by: amshake (Jan 22, 2008 02:13PM)
The arrogance behind the idea that if you are not a "Full Time Professional Magician" then you are not a magician at all is amazing. That single bit of arrogance invalidates everything you have said.
Message: Posted by: mmreed (Jan 29, 2008 09:12AM)
I am a person "new to magic" and joined a local ring and have to say that I am very happy with the members and the ring itself. The members meet monthly in a somewhat formal meeting style. We have shows, lectures, and discussions. There are some that show up as part of the "old gang" to socialize, but that's fine - they still offer mentorship. We also meet outside of the normal meeting for magic work, socialization, etc.

Im finding it to be a very warm environment that caters to helping all.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (May 31, 2008 10:11AM)
Amshake said,

"The arrogance behind the idea that if you are not a "Full Time Professional Magician" then you are not a magician at all is amazing. That single bit of arrogance invalidates everything you have said."

I never said any of that, THAT'S A STRAW MAN.

you sound like you just don't like me and that was the best you could do to sound "right".

if you think I'm arogant I am really sorry, if you ever have the chance to meet anyone who has come into contact with me they will accuse me of being too self consious with a huge lack of confidence in my personal life and that I am too critical of myself and my show. it's not an act infact sometimes I wish I was an arogant person they seem to be natural entertainers.

amshake,

if you don't like someone just say so. if your going to pressume you know what they mean and speak for them make sure you know what they mean or people may think your ill will intentions are transparent......they'll know your just being mean.

Posted: May 31, 2008 11:17am
The reason I have returned to this topic is because in my book, "TO LURE WITH SPECTALCE AND OUR MYSTERIOUS SOCIETY" I have included the feelings of myself and the people I have spoken up for in the opening post of this thread.

the book is split into 2 topics one is the how to's of street performing and the other is the generall consencis of the conduct of magicians.

Posted: Jun 2, 2008 2:19pm
Heres a publisher's link;

http://leapinglizardsmagic.com/lure_with_spectacle.htm

or you can just google it for a retailer
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Mar 4, 2011 03:13PM)
As an observation from a magic wannabe (that's me) and therefore NOT qualified to talk about either the IBM,SAM, Magic Circle, but I believe fully qualified by life experience to make a couple of observations that a believe are pertinent....of course I may just be arrogant ;0) You decide.


1) There is great danger when describing a series of small clubs as a leviathan organisation in which all member clubs are alike. In fact it has already been agreed by both parties that some clubs are very good but that some are more active and supportive than others.

2) Let us assume that a given club is populated with people of average intelligence. If the majority are happy then the club will continue to exist irrespective of negative views inside or outside of the local club. If the majority are NOT happy then they will either enforce change or leave and the club will die. If the club persists then we must assume that the members are happy with it. To assume otherwise is to infer that the members are idiots....which they are not.

3) All this has really shown is that there is a place for people who want to be a member of an organisation and a place for people who don't. Good!

All the best,

Danny
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Mar 4, 2011 03:15PM)
I also just realised that this thread is 3 years dead.....therefore I am of below average intelligence and an idiot!

D
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Mar 11, 2011 09:01PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-20 13:45, Josh Riel wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-09-20 13:01, mrunge wrote:

If you are as unhappy with the current state of magic as you appear to be, why not work on changing it and become part of the solution instead of just complaining about it and being stuck in the problem?


Your friend. Mark. :thumbsup:
[/quote]

This is exactly what he is trying to do. You might think he's too course in the way he said it, but shortly after his original post a nice lady supported her argument by insulting his spelling. Then we get mad at Jimmy and Eric for being insulting.

I don't understand why it's so hard to understand what Jimmy's saying, he said it in the first post. He even said that his desire was for the magicians to work at bettering the groups.

Of course not that anyone will re-read his post and try to see it from the standpoint of someone genuinely trying to help. You might not like the way someone speaks, but that doesn't make the speech irrelevant.

Anyway, hes a street performer, they are all pretty harsh sometimes. But most of us could learn a lot from Jimmy. I know I do, at the other Café, he writes gold. Fortunately over there we don't have a bunch of guys who are terrified of getting somebody upset by saying anything remotely negative toward the establishment.

Regardless of your opinions on this matter, Jimmy has more experience and more interest in magic, magicians, and our future than most in this whole forum.


Also, there might be 10 out of the 30,000+ people on this forum that would have the guts to actually go on the IBM forum and tell it like he sees it.

And I don't mean like a lot of people who will only say something they feel after several people have already said it, so they don't have to stand out.

Watch every thread. You have people gushing about a product, pages of it. Then one guy has the guts to say "Hey, it aint that great", then all the sudden dozens of guys suddenly get courageous enough to repeat him.....
[/quote]

I just want to say that after reading all the posts, I fully agree with this statement. I first caught the insults and thought to myself, "This is how someone gets treated for sharing his opinions?

"This "ain't", "they suck," "they have digressed from their original glory as a faternity" -- Mr. Talksalot, judging by your avatar on this forum and the choice of verbage (ain't . . . faternity instead of fraternity) I would assume you are not from the charter group of the S.A.M. when it formed in 1902 but rather from a more recent group of those who are into magic at the present time."

What exactly is she insinuating?

I personally think this small attack was unwarranted.

Sure, Jimmy makes a lot of loaded accusations, but picking on him because of his grammar and judging him based on his avatar?

Hey Jimmy, how old would you be if you were part of the charter group of S.A.M when it formed in 1902? (lol)
Message: Posted by: Vick (Mar 12, 2011 09:37PM)
Doesn't matter if the original post is 3.5 years old approximately

It's still spot on

How many IBS, SAM or what have you ever tell their members they should NOT be performing live for real audiences as their material isn't strong enough and they are not really?

and then really have someone available to tell them what TO READ to help, that can actually take them through the needed steps


How many people get turned down yearly for membership in the IBM?



What puzzles me, this is really one of my favorite ones (Oh I'm sure justifications can flow here)
What is rule 1 ~ something like .....
Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any principles of the Art of Magic, or the methods employed in any magic effect or illusion.

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha
Well why aren't you at the library removing the books on magic there
All the so called secrets of magic ... sitting on a shelf ... FOR FREE!!!!!


How many IBM members get told by the IBM or local rings or what have you not to do a routine because when they do the routine it's exposure?


The secrets of magic are few and far between, ALMOST NONE!!! Almost EVERYTHING IN MAGIC IS FOR SALE!!!
If you can easily buy it .... it's not a secret
Most of "the secrets" have to do with performing, not with actual methods


S.H. Sharpe is a bigger secret than a double lift, IT or about 4,549 effects I can name
and much more important
Message: Posted by: Brent McLeod (Mar 13, 2011 04:26AM)
I cant believe I wrote on this over 3 yrs ago but things have changed..

Im sure all IBM Clubs have there good & strong points also negative Points..

I know more About Jimmy & what he does & what he believes in.and I love what he does

I too thought Mrs Ibanez original post is a classic response that was totally expected.. predictible..
Ive also resigned about 2 yrs back from the IBM Here in NZ for reasons mainly
outlined in Jimmys original Post as have many good performers locally who are serious busy workers who actually meet privately
and have brainstorming sessions about real life shows, acts, clubs & touring... as a meeting should be but isn't & will never change..
The people are really good but the content & repeat themes year after year at meetings mean missing them doesn't matter...shame

We have 3 clubs in the city -1 is the IBM it charges over $100 a year, rip off,-magazine included, whoppee- meets no more than 6 times -usually 5
never does public shows, every 3 years they do a convention that is actually bettered in between by a local club with 40 kids as members...
However the lectures Provided by visiting Pros are few & far between but appreciated..but we pay for that no worries so why do we need the IBM
Problem here is too many are childrens performers & it dominates everything and the publics perception of local acts which us in the corporate market, University scene, working & touring are always changing the idea that magic for adults works really well etc.......
I guess the mix of Amateur performers & semi Professionals at many clubs worldwide will lead to great clubs & average clubs with People
Jimmy originally talks about

1 day there will hopefully be a level playing field but us as people always think & meet different needs from Maria to Jimmy-cool....
Message: Posted by: Skip Way (Mar 13, 2011 11:35AM)
Rings and Assemblies are what you, the member, make them. One Assembly that I belonged to had three sessions - The first hour was closed to all but working magicians who earned at least half of their annual income through performing. Topics included marketing, promotions, stagecraft and so on. The second hour was open to S.A.M. and Assembly members only and delved more into general magic topics and member-offered mini-lectures. The third hour was opened to guests and prospective members, covered general topics and ended in a social dinner at a local restaurant. A Ring I belonged to offered a general member & guests social gathering at the start of the month then a separate serious worker workshop midmonth.

I'm also a GREAT believer in small, focused mastermind groups of individuals with a common goal that exists outside of the standard social group. These two groups - clubs and masterminds - do not and should not necessarily be independent of one another.

Our top local full-time performers join and support my current local Ring every year - even though we rarely see them at the sessions. We in turn support them as a club when they're supporting a new show or cause. Clubs are more than meetings. They are a microcosm society of shared interests. How those interests are shared is the domain of the members - not some national committee.

In my opinion, the one who turns his back on his less-driven peers, no matter how big or successful he may be, is missing a major support and social environment. Where would any of us be if the successful among us had chosen not to give back to those who shared their passion for this art?

Just sayin'...
Message: Posted by: Reuben Dunn (Mar 20, 2011 10:59PM)
I had the good fortune, while living in the UK, of discovering Mentalism; finding out that I was rather "good" at it ( a lot better than I was doing,or, rather, attepmpting card effects when I was a teenager.), and then discovering a local magic club, The Coventry Magic Circle, which, if memory serves me correctly, is one of the, if not the, oldest magic societies in the UK.

I was spoiled, although perhaps at the time, I didn't fully realise it.

We met weekly. There were card workers, childrens magicians, a juggler or two, a few who did mentalism, mixed in with their magic, and a few people who didn't perform, but who enjoyed the company.

We held shows at least three times a year, usually at the local schools, they were 50-50 events, i.e., the gate was split in half. I did a five minute mentalism set at such a place, for that five minutes I included the adults who were overlooked given the age range of the kids.

Once a year they did, and probably still do, a charity show for the Mayor of Nuneaton's Annual Appeal. This is a show that the Circle puts on, they invite a local dance studio to send some dancers over, a local singer provides some music, and the group will perform magic.

In that group, when I was involved, there were a few "Pros" who made their living doing this, Semi-Pros who were being booked, and then there was me, a "Hack". A guy who was just doing maybe 1-2 shows every six months.

10 minutes a piece, and we had filled a 500 seat theatre each of the two years that I was involved.

I learned a lot from the men that I associated with on those week nights.

Now, four years since I've been part of such a group, I'm getting back, or rather, am trying to get back, into the swing of things.

I've had one gig last year, a 10-20 minute gig in a few weeks time.

I've also been shoping around for somewhere to "hang my hat".

I've been to one local magic group here in Orange County California, I was at an I.B.M. ring lecture last night (I'm still working out how the ring is listed as being a "Long Beach" ring, when it's located in Seal Beach. But then again, the Coventry Magic Circle hasn't met in Coventry in over 20+ years, so I guess things balance out somehow.), and I'm planning on heading to Irvine at the end of the month to attend another ring.

I'm looking for a place that has, to some extent, the same "warmth" that I had in Coventry. The biggest difference is that none of the rings meet more than once a month. A bit of a culture shock for me.

I'm looking for a group that will perhaps do more than just hire "Pros" to lecture. I do enjoy these events, but I'm looking for something more than that. A group of people who may want to perform, or, if they're not good enough, or don't have that interest level, who could provide whatever back up/support for those in the group who do perform, either on a "Pro" level, or on my level. (BTY, my use of the term "Hack" in describing myself should in no way infer that I'm not any good. I've been fortuniate to have all of the bookings, with the exception of two, that I've done in the UK, come as a result of word of mouth.)

Sadly, after visiting the ring on the 19th, and one earlier in the week, I suspect that perhaps my experiences in the Coventry Magic Circle were possibly limited to the UK. I hope not. But at the same time I'm loathe to do a drive accross Southern California in search of that Holy Grail.

The magic club I went to during the week on kind of reminds me of what the Circle was for me in the UK. Who know where that part of my journey will take me.

Clubs are what you make of it.

I agree.

I'm just hoping that the I.B.M. rings that I do come across will, at some level, be able to help me, and, truth be told, will proivde me with what I am looking for, and with what I was used to while in the UK.
Message: Posted by: Brent McLeod (Mar 24, 2011 01:39AM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-13 12:35, Skip Way wrote:

In my opinion, the one who turns his back on his less-driven peers, no matter how big or successful he may be, is missing a major support and social environment. Where would any of us be if the successful among us had chosen not to give back to those who shared their passion for this art?

Just sayin'...
[/quote]

Good Points by Skip-I remember the feeling of going to my first meeting when I was 12 or 13
it was as you say a real Experience thanks to the older members-we need to keep that Magic alive.....