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Topic: I am so confussed
Message: Posted by: m15d1r3ct10n (Sep 10, 2007 04:52PM)
I went to an Encounter at my church. First off let me say that it was great and refreshing for me to get back with God. I was re-baptized, since I did it when I was 8. I thought it was nessasary. Too anyone out there who gets and invited or has the oppotunity to go to an encounter GO!!! it will be wonderful. But, When I was there and talking with my group I asked them about magic. I made sure they specifically knew that it was not black magic or sorcery, but illusionary magic like we do. I was told that it was wrong for me to do it cuz I was opening doors in myself for the enemy to try to come in by. I was also told it can give a false impression of myself which also opens doors into my soul. I don;t want to stop doing magic it is a great hobby and great fun for me. My son and I have a very significant bond thru magic. It gives us something to do together that we can keep secret from other people. It's kind of like a special thing that we share together and perform together at times but we keep the secret of the tricks between us. He is my step-son. And I feel magic was one of the things that helped create a strong bond between us with. Where we follow the magicians code toghether. What are your opinions on this. Please help me with the dilemma in my mind I am facing
Message: Posted by: paulmagic (Sep 10, 2007 08:10PM)
Because many Christians just don't understand "magic" (as in illusion)they immediately label it as wrong. You will find lots of threads on this forum discussing this topic. Try not to be too bothered by well meaning but "ignorant" people.
I am a full time pastor and have been doing magic fgor 5 years now and still people misunderstand or get nervous about the magic I do. *sigh*
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Sep 10, 2007 09:12PM)
What is "Encounter"? An organization? A ministry in your church? Is there a web site?

Terry
Message: Posted by: Tony Thomas (Sep 10, 2007 09:37PM)
I'm a pastor as well, and I agree totally with Paul. I know these folks are well intending, but they don't get it. One of the best posts about this topic is the sticky at the top of this section, Should Christians do Magic or Conjering. I think the proper response is to thank them for their concern, and let them know that you will consider their advice. Hopefully they will be sensitive enough to not bring it up much.
Message: Posted by: Tony Brent (Sep 10, 2007 11:29PM)
I agree with Tony. I've the post he mentioned and also printed it. It's worth studying. Remember that "magic/illusion" is uncommon for most people and that even though you are trying to explain what you are doing they may not be really listening. The first time I performed at my own church a few folks told me later that the magic was too good and that they questioned whether it was "Biblical"!

Hang in there!
Tony Brent
Outta Control Magic Show
Orlando
Message: Posted by: Count Elmsley (Sep 11, 2007 06:06AM)
I am a christian like you, and have been for nearly 50 years. A member of a large local church where I am often asked to take the Kid's story on a Sunday Morning and do some Gospel Magic. The response from the Kids is amazing, they will listen to the 'Gospel' patter because they are expecting some magic to follow. The response from the 200 or so adults is amazement at the magic and an appreciation of the gospel content.
I suggest that you tell your Christian critics that Paul said "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some" (1 Cor 9:22 NIV) and that you intend to use your hobby to win young people through Gospel Magic.
Remember too that they criticised Jesus because he mixed with prostitutes, tax collectors, Gentiles and all sorts of sinners, so you are in good company.
Message: Posted by: m15d1r3ct10n (Sep 11, 2007 11:03AM)
An encounter is a weekend retreat at church where you go through a bunch of messages from various pastors and basically you get to have a personal encounter with God. It is a time where you can meet God and be delievered from all things that have been preventing you from being the best christian you can be. It's a way to get your life back in check, and just get to have have some personal time with God. Maybe find out your calling in how God wants you to be a servant. It was wonderful I would have paid $500 to go to it. I plan on attending next year, since it was just so refreshing, and getting in touch with the word was great too
Message: Posted by: Rickfcm (Sep 11, 2007 03:26PM)
If they are unbending in their opinion, you have two options. Yield to the pastor's authority in the church or LEAVE.
Rick
Message: Posted by: m15d1r3ct10n (Sep 11, 2007 03:33PM)
I won't leave the church. I like it alot. And, I feel I have decided that what they don;t know what hurt. It's not like I have to tell them everything I do right?
Message: Posted by: m15d1r3ct10n (Sep 11, 2007 03:35PM)
I also think that I can really touch some people through magic.just as some of you have so.... you tell me
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 11, 2007 04:27PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-11 16:33, m15d1r3ct10n wrote:
I won't leave the church. I like it alot. And, I feel I have decided that what they don;t know what hurt. It's not like I have to tell them everything I do right?
[/quote]

Doesn't this then rather prove their point that magic is "opening doors in myself for the enemy to try to come in"? "What they don't know won't hurt" is considered by many to be lying and in the end that type of behaviour will blow up quite badly. They may not like that you perform conjuring tricks (don't refer to it as magic around them) but I wouldn't try to hide the fact that you do. Of course there's no reason to perform or even mention it in their presence but if asked you need to be perfectly honest with them in the fact that you are still practicing prestidigitation with your step-son.
Message: Posted by: Rickfcm (Sep 11, 2007 05:34PM)
Bravo Payne
Message: Posted by: m15d1r3ct10n (Sep 11, 2007 05:40PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-11 17:27, Payne wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-09-11 16:33, m15d1r3ct10n wrote:
I won't leave the church. I like it alot. And, I feel I have decided that what they don;t know what hurt. It's not like I have to tell them everything I do right?
[/quote]

Doesn't this then rather prove their point that magic is "opening doors in myself for the enemy to try to come in"? "What they don't know won't hurt" is considered by many to be lying and in the end that type of behaviour will blow up quite badly. They may not like that you perform conjuring tricks (don't refer to it as magic around them) but I wouldn't try to hide the fact that you do. Of course there's no reason to perform or even mention it in their presence but if asked you need to be perfectly honest with them in the fact that you are still practicing prestidigitation with your step-son.
[/quote]

that is actually what I meant. When I am around them I will not discuss it. Or open a conversation about it. But if I am asked I will be honest. And again I will try to defend my point of view on that. But I am really seriouse about gospel magic for the neighborhood kids. I can't forsee my church allowing me to do it for the kids at the church. but, I see no reason why I can;t do gospel magic for the kids that live around me. I guess I will have my own little childrens church thingie going on. I guess that will be good considering that I would say about 90% of the families that live in our area don't go to church. That way at least their children will get to hear the good news, since their parents won;t take them. what do you think? maybe that is my purpose of my hobby and where I have been placed to live?
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 11, 2007 05:47PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-11 18:40, m15d1r3ct10n wrote:

I see no reason why I can;t do gospel magic for the kids that live around me. I guess I will have my own little childrens church thingie going on. I guess that will be good considering that I would say about 90% of the families that live in our area don't go to church. That way at least their children will get to hear the good news, since their parents won;t take them. what do you think? maybe that is my purpose of my hobby and where I have been placed to live?

[/quote]

I'd be careful about preaching to other peoples children outside of a church. Perhaps the reason they don't take their children to church is because they don't wish their children to be exposed to such things.
I'm sure you wouldn't want me telling your Step-Son about the benefits of my belief system why do you think I'd want you telling my children about yours?
Message: Posted by: m15d1r3ct10n (Sep 11, 2007 05:53PM)
Hmmm good point. I did'nt think of it that way. I am just really trying to figure out a way to use my hobby for a good cause. Not for money, nor fame, but to share and have fun.
Message: Posted by: Bball5630 (Sep 11, 2007 06:50PM)
Don't be too quick. Payne's response would really just eliminate all types of evangelism. In his theory the Great Commission would be mute. I won't get into the debate here, but don't stop evangelism of any sort. With your magic or without it.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 11, 2007 07:07PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-11 18:53, m15d1r3ct10n wrote:
Hmmm good point. I did'nt think of it that way. I am just really trying to figure out a way to use my hobby for a good cause. Not for money, nor fame, but to share and have fun.
[/quote]

"Preach the gospel at all times. Sometimes use words"

A trick that simply puts a smile on a childs face can go a lot further than a trick with a Bible verse attached to it.

Plus you'll get a lot less angry parents pounding on your door demanding to know why your trying to convert their kids.
Message: Posted by: m15d1r3ct10n (Sep 12, 2007 10:40AM)
I don't look at it as trying to "convert" but inform. I think converting is when you pound someone over and over with something. If I inform, I am letting them know who jesus is and what he did. Maybe that will spark some interest, and have them want to know more. I know the bible says something on the bases of going out to all nations and preaching the gospel. So nations could be anywhere be it another country andother city or just in your own backyard. But I do feel bad that there are many children out there who will not get the chance because their parents are non-belivers. That is why at times I feel like it is my job since I have been commanded by bible, and my own morals. This has been a great dicussion guys, thanks to all who have been participating
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Sep 12, 2007 10:50AM)
I feel bad about the fact that you are at a church where your ministry niche and talents are not encouraged or welcomed. That's a bummer but not something you could overcome and still worship there and possibly minister in some other capacity. I totally agree with what bball said above! But perhaps there is another option for introducing gospel effects to some of your neighborhood kids. As far as continuing with magic in your neighborhood, by all means go for it! I think you should just do some fun entertaining type of tricks, without any message, and develop a little rapport or reputation even. I would assume word might get out and I would think the kids might end up dropping by with their mom or dad eventually (once they tell their parents that so and so is showing them magic. I don't know what ages of kids you are referring to, probably all ages I assume. So if younger ones come with a parent then I would think that would be a perfect opportunity to add in an effect with a gospel message. For those whose parents might have a strong sense of denying "church" or any word about Christ to their own children then they can shield them a little longer and not let them come back to see your magic. Otherwise you're adding in a message with folks that you've already had some fun with and maybe you might connect with parents and create some great opportunities to share the good news to families. There are a lot of secret christians out there also, those that don't really let on much publicly about their beliefs that would respond favorably, I think. Especially if you were reinforcing in a creative way what they already believe. But you never know what you will run into when you're sharing gospel magic to the general public.
Anyways, God bless your efforts and give you wisdom! It sounds like your motivations are honorable, don't let your church rob you of your desire to reach people through gospel magic or naysayers in other areas!

GlenD
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 12, 2007 11:34AM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-12 11:40, m15d1r3ct10n wrote:

But I do feel bad that there are many children out there who will not get the chance because their parents are non-belivers.

[/quote]

And you should respect the beliefs, or non belief of their parents. It's difficult enough to raise kids these days without having to debrief them everytime they encounter a "well meaning" evangelical. Fortunately my "godchild" is taking after his parents and at eight is already quite secure in his secular beliefs. So having to explain to him that some people believe in differnt things than you do isn't a problem. We just have a some difficulty getting him not to share his non-belief with his schoolmates at times..
But I'm sure other parents wishing to bring their children up in a the rationalist lifestyle really don't appreciate having their children preached to, especially when they are not around.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Sep 12, 2007 01:28PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-12 12:34, Payne wrote:

Fortunately my "godchild" is taking after his parents and at eight is already quite secure in his secular beliefs.
[/quote]

Hi Payne:

Which "god"?

Terry
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 12, 2007 02:48PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-12 14:28, Terry Holley wrote:

Which "god"?

Terry

[/quote]


Probably Thoth as he's the god of Science and Writing. Since his parents pen and paint a comic book set in a world run by mad scientists he would be the most appropriate deity to pay homage to.

The title of Godparent is an inside joke since there really isn't a secular version of the word. My wife and myself will become the children's legal guardians in case of their parents untimely demise. An honor bestowed upon us because they trusted to bring their kids up in the same secular surroundings that they are familiar with and wouldn't sell them into servitude to the first bottle washer that came along.
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Sep 12, 2007 05:16PM)
Evangelism to a true disciple of Christ is not optional. There are some things I may not like or want because I don't see the need nor the benefit, but that doesn't mean I don't need it. There's not one person on the face of this earth that doesn't need to hear the Gospel message...not one.

I'm a pastor and there are people in my church that don't feel comfortable with what I do, but not one of them has won, one person to the Lord this summer, but through the use of illusion, I've seen over 300 come to the Lord this summer and many from homes where the parents don't attend a church at all.

If your local church doesn't feel comfortable, that's okay, there's opportunities outside of your church that you can use your giftings and talents to evangelize.

Terry
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 12, 2007 05:54PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-12 18:16, Terry Owens wrote:

I'm a pastor and there are people in my church that don't feel comfortable with what I do, but not one of them has won, one person to the Lord this summer, but through the use of illusion, I've seen over 300 come to the Lord this summer and many from homes where the parents don't attend a church at all.

[/quote]

It sounds to me though that conversions took place in a place of worship or at an event specifically held for this purpose. Much like Andre Kole is brought in by local churches to spread the Gospel. People attend these of their own free will (a topic of debate for another thread) hopefully most of the time knowing that the event is being sponsored by a religious organization and there will be some form of proselytizing or tithing involved. This is a whole lot different than going around the neighborhood and preying (praying?) on kids by using magic as a vehicle for preaching.
Really, if someone wants to find god I'm sure they won't have any difficulty doing so as there are certainly is no shortage of churches to find him in. Those of us wishing to keep our children and ourselves out of such organizations should be allowed to do so in peace and not have our evenings spoiled by some one with a handful of pamphlets ringing our doorbell.

But this is getting off the topic.

So, show the neighborhood kids regular magic and keep the gospel stuff for Sunday School Shows
Message: Posted by: m15d1r3ct10n (Sep 12, 2007 06:07PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-12 18:54, Payne wrote:

This is a whole lot different than going around the neighborhood and preying (praying?) on kids by using magic as a vehicle for preaching.

[/quote]

I can respect your opinions. but I cannot respect that remark about preying. That is far from what it is from. Look no one here has challenged or insulted your beliefs. So, please don't do that to us. Besides this is a Christian Forum, and I don't understand why you being athiest, (I think that is what your beliefs are, please let me know if I am mistaken.) would be here telling us that we are wrong for evagelizing, that is what we believe in. I am just happy knowing that when the end comes, I will be living with my father in heaven, and my brother Jesus, and be reunited with all the people that have left me behind on this earth, that I dearly miss. That is why I do what I do, and believe what I believe. I want to be with God in the end.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 12, 2007 09:38PM)
No insult meant, just couldn't resist the pun. It's my dry sense of humour.

I will let you know though that sometimes though we feel like prey. Especially if you get targeted by a certain church or set of missionaries. I've had friends who literally were visited on a weekly basis by people overly concerned for their salvation. It gets annoying, especially after you've told them in no uncertain terms that you're really not interested.
I understand that most people mean well and only want to share the good news with others but for us non believers it gets really old very quickly.

I'm not telling you that you are wrong for evangelizing, I'm just trying to say there is a proper time and place for it and that preaching to other peoples children without the parents consent is probably not the greatest of ideas. Especially these days when we live in a lot less of a homogeneous culture and everyone you meet might not share or welcome your belief structure.

I'm very happy that you're going to get to meet Jesus and spend eternity with all those people that have left you behind. For me I'm satisfied knowing that there is nothing but oblivion awaiting for me upon my death. I wasn't at all troubled by my non existence before I was born, I see no reason to be bothered by it after I'm dead.
Message: Posted by: smithpaul60 (Sep 13, 2007 08:50AM)
Maybe I shouldn't jump in here but I'm going to because I feel constrained to.

No insult may have been meant but to joke about someones beliefs is not polite.

What payne is saying is that he dosen't appreciate when "christians" (there are many different types) preach to him. He dosen't like when others push their beliefs.

What I don't understand is why he is here. By joining a converstion that is geared toward other christians he is implicitly agreeing with the ideas of the purpose of this forum. THIS fourm (BCM) is where christan magi gather to discuss their BELIEFS and sucesses/failures in gospel magic. Otherwise there are plenty of other forums here at the Café to discuss simple magic.

The other arguement is that through his posting he is "pushing" his beliefs as well. The exact thing he says he dosen't like.

In a christian belief system Payne is wrong. Read the last chapter of Matthew, "Go and preach my gospel." Christ did not say to those who want you to. (nobody WANTS to be bothered) Think about the first 15 apostles (including those who were added in after others had passed) all died Horrific deaths at the hands of people who didn't want to be preached to. But that didn't stop them. This form wouldn't be here if it had.

I'm not saying go out and tick people off until you are killed but I am saying DO NOT STOP , EVER. Show your beliefs through your thoughts, actions, words, and magic. Always be a witness for Christ. ALWAYS.

Mis, here is my advise for you.

"I am just really trying to figure out a way to use my hobby for a good cause. Not for money, nor fame, but to share and have fun. "

This quote is the center of your question.
1. Isn't your bond with your son (stepson, it dosen't matter because he is your son now.) worth the price already. That is a reason enough. God dosen't work on our timetable. His purpose for you might just to be a guiding infulence for your son.

2. Don't do anything akin to lying. That includes lying by ommission. Sleight of hand is NOT a sin. Don't tell your church anything other tan that you do gospel magic. Most people who are against it have never seen or experinced it. Put some shows on in a seperate venue, let them know they will come around eventually. Ingorance does not make them right.

3. Never preach to a minor without their parents knowing that it is the primary reason for your magic. When advertizing your show be sure to make it clear that it is GOSPEL magic with the intent ot teach of christ.

4. Never, Never, Never, Never, change who you are (unless it is against the principles of the gospel) for anyone who disagrees with you. Treat them respectfully but always know who you are, YOU ARE A CHILD OF GOD.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 13, 2007 08:56AM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-13 09:50, smithpaul60 wrote:

Mis, here is my advise for you.

"I am just really trying to figure out a way to use my hobby for a good cause. Not for money, nor fame, but to share and have fun. "

This quote is the center of your question.
1. Isn't your bond with your son (stepson, it dosen't matter because he is your son now.) worth the price already. That is a reason enough. God dosen't work on our timetable. His purpose for you might just to be a guiding infulence for your son.

2. Don't do anything akin to lying. That includes lying by ommission. Sleight of hand is NOT a sin. Don't tell your church anything other tan that you do gospel magic. Most people who are against it have never seen or experinced it. Put some shows on in a seperate venue, let them know they will come around eventually. Ingorance does not make them right.

3. Never preach to a minor without their parents knowing that it is the primary reason for your magic. When advertizing your show be sure to make it clear that it is GOSPEL magic with the intent ot teach of christ.

4. Never, Never, Never, Never, change who you are (unless it is against the principles of the gospel) for anyone who disagrees with you. Treat them respectfully but always know who you are, YOU ARE A CHILD OF GOD.
[/quote]

Which was exactly what I was saying
Message: Posted by: smithpaul60 (Sep 13, 2007 08:58AM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-13 09:50, smithpaul60 wrote:
YOU ARE A CHILD OF GOD.
[/quote]

trust me you were NOT saying that!
Message: Posted by: m15d1r3ct10n (Sep 13, 2007 12:39PM)
Thanks everyone for your input. But I am starting to sence the start of a battle hear which could turn ugly. I have recieved much input from everyone, and thank-you so much!!! But since things are starting to heat up I have decided I am going to refrain from this subject anymore. How about if we all agree we all had a very good discussion, go our seperate ways and start thinking about a new topic to discuss? Again thank-you eveyone and God bless.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Sep 13, 2007 05:02PM)
I enjoy having Payne around here just like I enjoy inviting and having atheists and agnostics visit my church.

Terry
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 13, 2007 05:07PM)
Hey, if we were all believers who would you guys get to evangelize to? :)
Message: Posted by: David McCall (Sep 13, 2007 07:10PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-10 17:52, m15d1r3ct10n wrote:
I went to an Encounter at my church. First off let me say that it was great and refreshing for me to get back with God. I was re-baptized, since I did it when I was 8. I thought it was nessasary. Too anyone out there who gets and invited or has the oppotunity to go to an encounter GO!!! it will be wonderful. But, When I was there and talking with my group I asked them about magic. I made sure they specifically knew that it was not black magic or sorcery, but illusionary magic like we do. I was told that it was wrong for me to do it cuz I was opening doors in myself for the enemy to try to come in by. I was also told it can give a false impression of myself which also opens doors into my soul. I don;t want to stop doing magic it is a great hobby and great fun for me. My son and I have a very significant bond thru magic. It gives us something to do together that we can keep secret from other people. It's kind of like a special thing that we share together and perform together at times but we keep the secret of the tricks between us. He is my step-son. And I feel magic was one of the things that helped create a strong bond between us with. Where we follow the magicians code toghether. What are your opinions on this. Please help me with the dilemma in my mind I am facing
[/quote]

I had a guy once scream at me and call me a demon spawn right to my face. I made a joke about being Presbyterian, and we just ignored it. Afterword, I became tired of him following me around and insulting me, so I quickly and quietly pulled him to the side, and quickly explained what I'm about, my intentions in magic, etc. And strangest thing is, he now seems to think it's cool. Lol. He actually announces me now as "the magic guy" and we're on friendly terms.

It just took me that moment to get a tiny bit out of my comfort zone and have a frank discussion with the guy.

If you'd like a verse to think about, this section has been a long time favorite: 1st Corinthians 12, 1-31; at first, it may not always seem to apply; but I feel like it applies fairly well. We all have our spiritual gifts, and they are different, whether it's music (ya ever hear Chrisian Rock Musicians? I'm sure plenty of people tell them the same thing they tell you).

Think of these gospel effects as parables. You're telling a story in order to prove a point about the goodness of God.


If you're doing it with a good heart, and you're not hurting other people's spiritual health, then no worries. It's gotten you to bond with your son in a positive way, and perhaps it's gotten (or will get him (and you)) closer to God than you can imagine.

There will always be people out there who will judge you. But ultimately, it's between you and God. That's what matters.
Message: Posted by: karbonkid (Sep 21, 2007 08:25AM)
God loves everybody. Even magicians.
Message: Posted by: Silly Walter the Polar Bear (Sep 21, 2007 10:35AM)
Magicians should be fed to the lions. Ok, maybe just the mentalists.
Message: Posted by: Sociomagi (Sep 26, 2007 08:42AM)
I enjoy having Master Payne around too!

Just my two cents ;)

Peter
Message: Posted by: grant_gilson (Sep 26, 2007 06:21PM)
Master Payne:

I too did not believe there was an after life (in my younger years). I changed my mind - and I pray you will too.

I have used the good old scotch & soda for 'gospel magic'. I show the silver coin as the 'good' part of the person and the copper coin as the 'bad' part of the person. Then I put both (?) coins in their hand and state I have a coin that will 'take away' the 'bad' coin. Then I wave a 10 commandment coin (livingwaters.com) above their closed fist and ask them to open their hand-the bad coin is gone!! Then I give them the 10 commandment coin. I have given away hundreds of coins - mostly to children - usually right in front of their parents- and never, nerver had one complaint. You can reach many people this way.
grant
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 26, 2007 11:43PM)
[quote]
On 2007-09-26 19:21, grant_gilson wrote:
Master Payne:

I too did not believe there was an after life (in my younger years). I changed my mind - and I pray you will too.

I have used the good old scotch & soda for 'gospel magic'. I show the silver coin as the 'good' part of the person and the copper coin as the 'bad' part of the person. Then I put both (?) coins in their hand and state I have a coin that will 'take away' the 'bad' coin. Then I wave a 10 commandment coin (livingwaters.com) above their closed fist and ask them to open their hand-the bad coin is gone!! Then I give them the 10 commandment coin. I have given away hundreds of coins - mostly to children - usually right in front of their parents- and never, nerver had one complaint. You can reach many people this way.
grant
[/quote]

That's a very nice and light handed presentation that even I would have no problem with someone showing to my child (if I had one) as long as they were in my presence. It's a good way to teach the child that people do good things for all sorts of different reasons.
I just have trouble with the heavy handed scare tactics I've seen used by people proclaiming you're going to burn in hell for all eternity if you fail to accept their deity as yours.