(Close Window)
Topic: Walter Scott 1911 arrest story
Message: Posted by: DStachowiak (Oct 22, 2007 01:00AM)
Here is the NY Times version of the story of the 1911 arrest of Wyatt Earp and Walter Scott for an alleged con game involving a rigged Faro Bank.
[url=http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?
res=9A0DE0DE1131E233A25750C2A9619C946096D6CF]nytimes[/url]

There has been speculation in the past about the possibilty that this might have been the same Walter Scott known as the "Phantom of the Card Table".
There is also an LA times article available on line, but it is in the LA times news archive and costs money to view. It is at

[url=http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/339788592.html?dids=339788592:339788592&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Jul+23%2C+1911&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(1886-Current&edition=&startpage=V20&desc=SAYS+HE+JUST+HAPPENED+IN]LAtimes[/url]

I don't know if it was ever established whether or not this might have been him, but it makes for some fun speculation.
Message: Posted by: C. Loubard (Oct 22, 2007 01:45AM)
IIRC, he was busted in Los Angeles and the cards were said to have tiny bumps on them. Again I can't recall correctly, but I know someone who has an original clipping of that article from the paper.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Oct 22, 2007 01:54AM)
Wow my teacher got busted with Wyatt Earp who was best friends with Docholiday.

Now what more can I ask for.


Respectfully,

Docholiday
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 22, 2007 02:52AM)
I'd bet some serious coin it wasn't him. The Phantom would have just turned 16 years old in July of 1911. Difficult to believe he was on the other side of the country (he was from Rhode Island) and banging around with a 63 year old Wyatt.

Although The Phantom is said to have traveled extensively throughout the US, a careful reading of the appropriate sections from [i][b]Phantoms of the Card Table[/i][/b] tends to convince me that this didn't happen until Scott was into his 20s and perhaps 30s.

As The Phantom himself told Gazzo when they first met, "There's lots of Walter Scotts."

Jason
Message: Posted by: Silly Walter the Polar Bear (Oct 22, 2007 01:27PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-22 03:52, JasonEngland wrote:As The Phantom himself told Gazzo when they first met, "There's lots of Walter Scotts."

Jason
[/quote]

I was actually going to say there were probably several people named Walter Scott back then. I did read that David roth also rejoined Van Halen which surprised me because why would you give up coin magic to play with those has beens?
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Oct 22, 2007 01:29PM)
You are one silly polar bear....

CC
Message: Posted by: DStachowiak (Oct 22, 2007 02:25PM)
I agree it's a stretch, but then again, people left home pretty young back then. My father was in the Navy at 16 in 1926, and a great uncle served in WWI at 16. Walter Scott is, of course, a common enough name, and it would be quite a coincidence. I just thought it was fun to see the article.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 22, 2007 05:38PM)
Still some coincidence that we have a sharp name Walter Scott arrested with pips found on the cards. I would not dismiss it as being The Walter Scott down to this one only being sixteen. I did and many kids do deal at that age in private games to all ages even today and I mean in proper cash games. I said long ago the best I ever seen was a kid of about 14 years old. Street kids are can be very skilled at an early age I have no doubt about that they are kids are pretty fearless. For example some best pick pockets in London today are kids of 10 years old and less. All I am saying is never underestimate the kids. I don’t think it was him but the story does make me wonder. I have heard it mentioned before by Gazzo but thanks for story in any event.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Oct 22, 2007 05:51PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-22 02:54, Unknown419 wrote:
Wow my teacher got busted with Wyatt Earp who was best friends with Docholiday.

Now what more can I ask for.


Respectfully,

Docholiday
[/quote]
that's why you're the doc!!


pal
j
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 22, 2007 09:44PM)
Tommy,

I think it's a wonderful coincidence, but I don't dismiss it just because of Scott's age. I also factored in the difficulty of traveling all the way to California in a day and age where that sort of travel might've taken weeks if not months.

I also considered the fact that Scott doesn't appear to have mentioned this to Gazzo at any point. At least, it didn't make it into the book that Gazzo wrote. Wyatt was a minor celebrity even in 1911, so the likelihood that it would have been forgotten by Scott is slim.

J
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 23, 2007 03:38AM)
Yes I know, I did read your post and I agree.

The other thing is, faro, has I understand it, was dealt from a box, so I don't think they are talking about dealing the punch or are they?


By the the way Earps pal Bat Masterson was arrested in 1902 I think for cheating someone in a faro game. Cheating at cards is a small world and I think most these card cheats would have some links to each other.
Message: Posted by: DStachowiak (Oct 23, 2007 07:33AM)
I agree this is a long shot, but it's fun to speculate. This is sort of similar to the mysterious stories of a shadowy grifter named E S Andrews who had a string of documented arrests for investment fraud throughout the midwest, and who many think may have been S W Erdnase. We'll never know for sure, but it makes for a good story.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Oct 23, 2007 02:28PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-23 04:38, tommy wrote:
Yes I know, I did read your post and I agree.

The other thing is, faro, has I understand it, was dealt from a box, so I don't think they are talking about dealing the punch or are they?
[/quote]

They still definitely play the punch from a dealing box right along with rough and smooth. Magician8 is superb and he's only 13 years old.

Repectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 23, 2007 06:50PM)
Re Faro “The dealer shuffled a single deck and placed it “face up” in a special shoe.” see pic etc here:

http://www.bcvc.net/faro/gambling.htm

So I just don’t get what good pips are in faro if the top card is face up and can be seen since all a pip does is tell us what the top card is.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 24, 2007 01:57AM)
Tommy,

I probably wasn't a matter of whether one could read the card, but whether one could read the card [i]faster[/i] with an index. Even today after ~ 20 years with a deck of cards, it's still quicker for me to see a 10 in the upper corner than to count the center pips. Although all are distinctly different, I still look twice at the 7s, 8s, 9s and 10s just to make sure I'm not making a mistake.

Sure with training I could get to the point where all I did was recognize (as opposed to count) the center arrangement, but a casual gambler in the 1800s or early 1900s would not necessarily have put in the time to do that.

J
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 24, 2007 06:05AM)
Sorry Jason I said "pips" but what I meant was, blisters, the "tiny bumps" that CL reffered to above.

What good is puting secret "tiny bumps" into the cards for faro when the cards are "face up" in a faro box where the top card can be seen?

Tiny bumps in faro indicate to me that they were using "Tie Ups" tiny holes allow one to tie up slugs of cards and suckers can shuffle but the slug is still kept together. Its a very old form of cheating in faro.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Oct 24, 2007 07:23AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-23 15:28, Unknown419 wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-10-23 04:38, tommy wrote:
Yes I know, I did read your post and I agree.

The other thing is, faro, has I understand it, was dealt from a box, so I don't think they are talking about dealing the punch or are they?
[/quote]

They still definitely play the punch from a dealing box right along with rough and smooth. Magician8 is superb and he's only 13 years old.

Repectfully,

Doc
[/quote]

LOL
Message: Posted by: DStachowiak (Oct 25, 2007 08:46AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-24 07:05, tommy wrote:
Sorry Jason I said "pips" but what I meant was, blisters, the "tiny bumps" that CL reffered to above.

What good is puting secret "tiny bumps" into the cards for faro when the cards are "face up" in a faro box where the top card can be seen?

Tiny bumps in faro indicate to me that they were using "Tie Ups" tiny holes allow one to tie up slugs of cards and suckers can shuffle but the slug is still kept together. Its a very old form of cheating in faro.
[/quote]
Tommy, can you elaborate on the "Tie-ups" technique? It sounds interesting. I'm imagining slugs of cards with punch style bumps perfectly aligned, so that the cards interlock like Lego blocks and stay together. Is that anything like it? I'm thinking about possible uses in card magic.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 25, 2007 11:12AM)
I put it on the secret sessions for you.
Message: Posted by: DStachowiak (Oct 25, 2007 11:31AM)
Thanks Tommy, I wasn't thinking when I posted that here in the open!
Don
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 25, 2007 11:42AM)
No problem Don the book can be read on the internet by any who cares to in any event.
Message: Posted by: Magic Fred (Oct 31, 2007 03:30AM)
As usual, Tommy has the inside scoop. Thanks!
Message: Posted by: Magic Fred (Oct 31, 2007 06:17AM)
I have an old book that talks about something called "tie ups." Like Tommy, I don't want to expose, but if it's the same thing then Tommy is THE man!
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 31, 2007 09:00AM)
Tommy,

Not sure what tie-ups are/were, though they're referred to in at least one old book that is "wandering" around in my library (a photo-copy anyway). I always thought they were just slugs of memorized cards used to cheat at faro.

However, I do know that faro wasn't always dealt face up from the dealing boxes. The game actually predates those boxes, so it makes sense that it was dealt from a face-down deck early in its history.

The very, very rare book [i][b]A Grand Expose of the Science of Gambling[/i][/b] aka [i][b]Expose of Gambling[/i][/b] (1860) by "An Adept" mentions face-down faro being dealt. There are also mentions of other methods of cheating at the game including sand-tell and needle-tell boxes. One other method of marking the cards so that one could cheat visually was also mentioned, though I'd have to do some digging to pull up the details.

Don't know if any of that helps.

Jason
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 31, 2007 11:12AM)
Don,

I believe the slugs were literally "tied up" with horse hair, and not held together with any sort of interlocking hole/peg system. An early use of invisible thread as it were. I could be mistaken.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 31, 2007 05:35PM)
Jason

You can read the whole old book by [url=http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple&c=moa&cc=moa&sid=3d11518496d42a720ccaa04b44709bde&rgn=full+text&q1=false+shuffle&Submit=Search&cite1=&cite1restrict=title&cite2=&cite2restrict=title&firstpubl1=1800&firstpubl2=1925]Clicking Here![/url]

Title: Wanderings of a vagabond. An autobiography. Ed. by John Morris [pseud.]
Author: O'Connor, John.
Publication Info: New York,: The author, [1873]
Title: Wanderings of a vagabond. An autobiography. Ed. by John Morris [pseud.]
Author: O'Connor, John.
Publication Info: New York,: The author, [1873]
? Search Results: 10 matches in full text
List of all pages |View first page |Add to bookbag
Page 171
2 matches of "tie ups"
Page 172
1 match of "tie ups"
Page 178
3 matches of "tie ups"
Page 179
3 matches of "tie ups"
Page 243
1 match of "tie ups"
Message: Posted by: DStachowiak (Nov 2, 2007 10:41AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 12:12, JasonEngland wrote:
Don,

I believe the slugs were literally "tied up" with horse hair, and not held together with any sort of interlocking hole/peg system. An early use of invisible thread as it were. I could be mistaken.

Jason
[/quote]
Thanks, Jason. Tommy PMed me about this, and clarified it for me.