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Topic: What or who makes the BEST hand mirrors
Message: Posted by: Mr.Crebar (Nov 21, 2007 03:51PM)
Someone made the suggestion on the "mentalism" forum that you gentlemen (and ladies, my wife gambles better than me) might have a suggestion for me regarding mirrors that sneak peeks. I would use this as a mindreading sort of feat. something over the shoulder. any suggestions from you sneaky little devils! cheers.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Nov 21, 2007 04:37PM)
Almost anything that reflects can be used to sneak peeks at things. It all depends on what you are trying to see and where you are hiding the mirror. I'm not sure what you mean by "over the shoulder". In your situation I'd say, figure out what you want to see, where you want to see it from, and then just keep your eyes open for something that will work. A tiny mirror or shiny piece of metal or whatever it takes.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Nov 22, 2007 12:35AM)
http://www.toddlassen.com/misc.htm
http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/JamesRiserMagic.html

The Jim Riser shiner is at the very bottom of his web page.
Jim's is a 50 cent piece.

Todd offers his in a 50 cent piece or a 10 cent piece.
Message: Posted by: andre.eighty (Nov 22, 2007 01:09AM)
Speaking of shiners...

I don't mean to highjack this thread but does anyone know where to get the "stack of chips - shiner". it looks like a stack of chips and it has a shiner within it...

silverking, thanks for the link to toddlassen website, was interested in thoughs shiners as well...
Message: Posted by: choobysoo (Nov 22, 2007 01:51AM)
Wow,50 bucks for a shiner? that's a cut throat price
Message: Posted by: Pavloter (Nov 22, 2007 03:13AM)
It's cheapere here http://www.gamblingcollectibles.com/equipment3.html
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Nov 22, 2007 05:01AM)
Black coffee anyone?

CC
Message: Posted by: splice (Nov 22, 2007 07:06AM)
Yes, black coffee seems perfect for an over the shoulder peek during a mentalism routine. Very, very clever. Now if I could only get the coffee to stay in the cup so I could see behind me...
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 22, 2007 08:20AM)
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravaggio/caravaggio12.html
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Nov 22, 2007 11:21AM)
When using a shinner, you also have to decide whether you want a convex mirror of flat.

It is MUCH easier to get a flat mirror, but, it is genrally not as good as a convex mirror.

The problem when using the better quality convex mirror is insuring that the curve is "just right" to reflect an image that is not too large and not too small.

Good luck !

Try a silver christmas tree bulb....Use a large bulb since it does not have a large curve and tends to work better. On the downside, the glass is so fragil, it is hard to work with.

have fun !
Message: Posted by: silverking (Nov 22, 2007 11:34AM)
I like the X-mas bulb idea. You could fill the backside with a hardening epoxy or clay to give it some durability, then sand it down to make it smooth......off to the workshop.
Message: Posted by: Pavloter (Nov 22, 2007 02:55PM)
If I am not mistaking, Frank Garcia talked in his book about women using X-mas bulb glass under fingern nail.
Message: Posted by: walking_liberty (Nov 22, 2007 05:02PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-22 15:55, Pavloter wrote:
If I am not mistaking, Frank Garcia talked in his book about women using X-mas bulb glass under fingern nail.
[/quote]


I've heard of people using a small piece of tinsel under the finger nail, that might be what you're thinking of.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Nov 22, 2007 06:05PM)
Perhaps an interesting discussion could be had by sharing how a shiner could/would be used in serious gameplay?

Any takers?

CC
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Nov 23, 2007 08:22AM)
I have not seen any real good literature or videos showing Glim work, reading the light or shiner work.

Maybe I should check YouTube :)

Note: I believe that Harry Lorrayne pyublished years ago a deal which had a "rocking" type action during the sail that allowed you to see the dealt card. yet it did not flash to other positions on the table.

I liked doing it when I was teenager...it was a fun move....but, required a VERY good memory...too many cards too fast to remember :)
Message: Posted by: h2o (Nov 23, 2007 09:48AM)
With a shiner, if you want to keep the deal smooth, you just sometimes don't need to know and remember the real value of the cards. As long as you can flash the card and see if it's a high card or a low card, that already gives you an edge.
Message: Posted by: h2o (Nov 23, 2007 09:57AM)
By the way, I wonder if, using the same principle as the false thumbs used by magicians, could exist or could be being used some little piece of "false skin" that you could attach or glue to one of your right finger so that you could cover the shiner in case someone being suspiscious would want to see your hands...
Just a thought...
Message: Posted by: thejohn171 (Nov 23, 2007 11:01AM)
I have Rudy Hunter's "Slap a Steak on that Thing" booklet and it comes with an indestructable shiner. I have been very pleased with it. It is carried by martinis magic
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Nov 23, 2007 12:09PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-23 09:22, Expertmagician wrote:
Note: I believe that Harry Lorrayne pyublished years ago a deal which had a "rocking" type action during the sail that allowed you to see the dealt card. yet it did not flash to other positions on the table.

I liked doing it when I was teenager...it was a fun move....but, required a VERY good memory...too many cards too fast to remember :)
[/quote]

"Rocking Chair" is the move, I bet (I risk a berating here, but I haven't been able to get that move to work for me...).
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Nov 23, 2007 02:25PM)
Is that how you guys brush off a mentalist coming over here asking about gamblers methods? LOL!
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 23, 2007 07:49PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-23 10:48, h2o wrote:
With a shiner,... As long as you can flash the card and see if it's a high card or a low card, that already gives you an edge.
[/quote]

This sounds great but when you start losing your money with this so-called edge, I promise you that you would re-evaluate your conclusion.

Your evaluation is okay for a game of Tonk or Black Jack when adding the value of the cards will suffice but what about knock rummy, gin or coon can? I once used what you said and lost my money because I knew the guy had a couple of high cards in his hand but what I didn't realize is that he had a meld and that adds up to nothing/no points; so I knocked and knocked and got broke.

I re-evaluated the situation and had to learn memory techniques so I could know what's exactly in a guys hand. Now that's the kind of odds that I like...knowing every card in his hand...that's like him playing with his cards face up. Remember readers that sometimes you might be playing a player and he knows about seconds and bottom dealing etc. therefore you can't beat him with these techniques and you don't want to lose him as a player/sucker so you play the light/shiner.

Note 1: Every cheating move is not about being able to stack or deal. What if the guy you're playing constantly picks up the deck and shuffles it before you can cull cards together in order to stack; you won't be able to beat him so what do you do? You play the light. Note 2: Because a guy is a cheater doesn't necessarily mean that he's on your level...that means he's still a sucker to you and needs to be broke; the light technique will work when other techniques won't.

Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Nov 23, 2007 08:06PM)
Doc,

Mmmmm, Interesting concept...while being 100% sure of your opponents cards is best. I always assumed that it also raises your risk of exposure.

Are you saying that having a significant edge is not good enough in the long run. Don't forget casinos win with a smaller edge then simply knowing if a player has a high card, etc.

I would guess it is OK if the player wins sometimes ???? If you knew every card all the time, your advantage will be VERY VERY high...so, high, you may scare off your fish ???

Thoughts ?
Message: Posted by: Mike M (Nov 25, 2007 09:14AM)
The best shiner book in my opinion is by Tony Giorgio. Called The Allen-Giorgio Shiner, it came with a gold shiner designed to be fitted on the inner phalanx of the pinky. It was highly priced and limited to just a few. I grabbed it quickly, and have never seen another.
Message: Posted by: Stepanov (Nov 25, 2007 11:22AM)
On Polish movie "Great Shu" about card sharpers shown triangled shiner.

I use shiner in form of chess pawn with elastic band. "Head" of pawn keeped between fingers. On dangerous situation I just relax fingers and shiner goes in to the sleave.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 25, 2007 03:22PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-25 10:14, Mike M wrote:
The best shiner book in my opinion is by Tony Giorgio. Called The Allen-Giorgio Shiner, it came with a gold shiner designed to be fitted on the inner phalanx of the pinky. It was highly priced and limited to just a few. I grabbed it quickly, and have never seen another.
[/quote]

What does this mess look like and what's in this shiner book? Is there some kind of memory technique a person can use or what?

I'm not being sarcastic or anything like that but how many ways can a person explain to someone about passing a card over a mirror/shiner and looking at it. All one needs to do is look down up, down up, down up. Down when you're looking at his card(s) and up when you're dealing your own (not necessary to see what you're getting).

Note: Your eyes must not constantly stare at the deck while dealing because the sucker may think that you're playing/reading marked cards on him.

WARNING: DO NOT PEEK THE TOP CARD OF THE DECK WHEN PLACING THE DECK DOWN IN ORDER TO SEE HIS FIRST PLUCKED CARD. THIS IS A SURE TIP OFF THAT YOU'RE PLAYING THE LIGHT TO ANY HUSTLER.

This is all I would say and I don't need a book to say it.


Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: jjsanvert (Nov 26, 2007 03:52AM)
The best shiner is permanently stuck on the bottom of your ring, so that you don't have to palm anything. When you want to use it, just turn slightly the ring so that the shiner is still inside the hand, but pointing upwards (at about 45°)- and deal the cards...
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 26, 2007 08:10AM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-26 04:52, jjsanvert wrote:
The best shiner is permanently stuck on the bottom of your ring, so that you don't have to palm anything. When you want to use it, just turn slightly the ring so that the shiner is still inside the hand, but pointing upwards (at about 45°)- and deal the cards...
[/quote]

I have to disagree with you on this...this is only partially true. Why? If possible try to NEVER HAVE ANY INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE ON YOU IF YOU CAN.

Once I was playing black Jack with two guys, one young and the other old. The old guy was a hustler by the name of Doc (he's dead now) but I didn't know it at the time. While playing black jack and being inexperienced at that time, I used exactly what jjsanvert just mentioned and I *** near got myself hurt/killed. While trying to peek the top card as I told ya'll not to do in the previous post prior to dealing the hustler his card woke him up to me dealing the light. Out of nowhere this old guy tried to grab my wrist and said something to the fact about me seeing the cards, as I immediately pulled back I said "what...are these cards marked? The old guy quickly said no, no these cards aren't marked." The other guy who was known as a hustler and killer said to the old guy Doc. "Doc these cards better not be marked because I lost a lot of money to you blah, blah, blah." This is what got me off the hook in this situation and since that day I never played a light like that again.

A couple of days later when I had the time I went back down town to the jeweler who made my shiner and told him to dull the finish and to make me shiner pieces so that I can add and take away from it whenever I wanted. Note: I used funtak back then but Ammar's Magic Wax now because it's clear. Now just like the magic trick Crazy Spots (we used to call this trick) that us kids used to have when we were young, I took this idea and used it as a shiner technique to make my shiner piece disappear. If asked to take off my ring, while twisting it, I slide the shiner piece off and hand the dulled ring to the player as I palm and then stick the light to any place available.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=73358&forum=37&post=3882469

[quote]
On 2004-11-18 09:50, Unknown419 wrote:
Jeff thanks for writing.

I'm not doing any video because like I said I'm too lazy and not trying to wake the dead.

Regarding the pinky ring...Jeff I hold the deck in my right hand instead of my left in order to deal. If I were holding it in my left hand it would be very akward to handle and see.

For the record those who deal with the deck in their left hand has to use a glimmer on the side of their middle finger or use the coin palm technique. I'm not saying that there isn't anyone who can do it but all those that I have seen do it, did it and was akward looking while doing it.

Doc

P.S. Jeff I've never heard or seen the himer ring before, I would like to see it one day. You learn something new about gambling moves everyday.

Note: To those who will use the polished ring will need to carry with them a jeweler's polishing cloth to keep it clean from dirt.
[/quote]

You can use his idea or mine...I like mine better. Everything else he said was absolutely correct.

Addendum: After that incident I didn't see the other guy for about 5 years because he went to jail but when he came out he told me about my ring (to my surprise) and I said, "what are you talking about?" He told me that the bottom of my ring was a shiner. I knew then that the old man Doc who I befriended told him before he died. I showed the guy my ring that it was dull and he forgot about it. Thank God for me dulling my ring.


Take Care

Doc
Message: Posted by: Pavloter (Nov 26, 2007 02:29PM)
Nice story Doc.

I don't have any cut cards with me now, but could it be used as a shiner, if you have it protruding slightly? If you use black cut card I think it is quite easy to see the card there, I'm not too sure as I don't have one around now.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Nov 26, 2007 03:36PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-26 15:29, Pavloter wrote:
I don't have any cut cards with me now, but could it be used as a shiner, if you have it protruding slightly? If you use black cut card I think it is quite easy to see the card there, I'm not too sure as I don't have one around now.
[/quote]

Most cut cards will have one shiny and one dull side to them. In theory, the shiny side can be used, but it doesn't always work out so well when it comes right down to it.

I personally think that shiners are more trouble than they are worth, in most cases. I have one, and it's a very nice one at that. I practiced with it, and have used it a handful of times.

Concealing a shiner, dealing a round to six or seven opponents, sighting every card dealt and assimilating this data (all the while operating at a normal pace and not appearing unnatural or preoccupied in the slightest) is a pipe dream.

However, using it to sight the cards dealt to a raise-a-holic, or the table bully, is a dream come true.

Splice,

I didn't catch the reference to mentalism in this thread's seminal post. Can you ever forgive me? I know it's ridiculous to think, even for a second, that you could come to a gambling forum seeking answers and get gambling related feedback.

Thanks for keeping me in line....

CC
Message: Posted by: h2o (Nov 26, 2007 04:56PM)
A shiner can be more suited for games where you have to deal 2 or 3 cards in a row to each player rather than just one. That gives you a better reason to look at your deck when you have to push 2 or 3 cards together.
Message: Posted by: jjsanvert (Nov 28, 2007 04:42AM)
Unknown419 - I am happy you are still alive, to tell us this story ;)
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 28, 2007 01:08PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-28 05:42, jjsanvert wrote:
Unknown419 - I am happy you are still alive, to tell us this story ;)
[/quote]

So am I.

Happy hustling.

Doc
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Nov 28, 2007 08:37PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-26 16:36, card cheat wrote:
Concealing a shiner, dealing a round to six or seven opponents, sighting every card dealt and assimilating this data (all the while operating at a normal pace and not appearing unnatural or preoccupied in the slightest) is a pipe dream.
[/quote]

Not a pipe dream at all. Only a matter of proper training. The world record of remembering 52 mixed playing cards (value and suite) in order and backwards, is 26.28 seconds. That is, dealing 2 cards per second. And this record won't last for long. Memory techniques for such feat are available free on the internet, even the exact technique used by the guy who set this record this year. Six months to a year of consistent training will do the trick.

In a gambling setting you don't even have to remember 52 cards, which makes the overall process so much easier.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Nov 28, 2007 09:56PM)
It's not the same in a game.

Try it.

Get back to us with your findings.

No offense intended. I just know what I'm talking about.

CC
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Nov 29, 2007 03:15AM)
I don't believe that you have invested the time to learn a proper memory technique system.

Learn the Dominic O'Brien system, supercharge it with Ben Pridmore's technique, get a speed of less than 40 seconds for memorizing a whole deck and you get back to us with your findings.

Try it.

No offense intended. I just know what I'm talking about.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 29, 2007 04:00AM)
Card Cheat I have to agree with Yiannis on this. Why? You see that I wrote in other post who were my teachers and Yiannis is one of them and this is the area in which he helped me in right along with Sal P.

Just like cards is our area memory training techniques is his.

Yiannis I purchased the Dominic O'Brien system like you told me but you just hit me with something new. What with this Ben Pridmore's technique that you're talking about? I would like info on this so that I can purchase this too. I also need the free sites for the memory technique training too.

Signed

Student who still needs help

Doc
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Nov 29, 2007 10:43AM)
Sometimes I forget that this is a magicians' forum.

I just remembered, and it all makes perfect sense now.

Carry on, gentlemen.

CC
Message: Posted by: splice (Nov 29, 2007 11:43AM)
Yep, absolutely. Obviously Doc can't possibly know as much as someone named "card cheat", and is lying to us about memorizing cards.

We should all shut up and let you do all the talking. Or alternatively, you should leave us lames and hang out with real workers like you, maybe at ellusionist or penguin.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 29, 2007 12:43PM)
The most amazing thing I ever seen with memory was thie kid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVqRT_kCOLI


There are many people who can not only play chess blind folded but play it to grand master standards. Can they do it while doing other complex tasks? I don't know but I wouldn't bet them that they couldn't. Remembering while doing everything else mentioned sounds hard to me but when we look at what can be done with memory technique and what some people can do I sure it be done. I personaly would just remember where the Aces were going to start with.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Nov 29, 2007 02:39PM)
I'm not saying that DOC knows less than I do.

I'm simply saying that I don't think that memorizing every player's hole cards while dealing them is practical, natural, or neccessary. I certainly don't remember ever hearing of anyone playing the light this way in a serious poker game.

Learning a memory system that will enable you to memorize X number of cards in Y seconds is great. But, we aren't talking about ribbon spreading a deck over a close-up mat and memorizing it's order in a given amount of time.

Regardless of the hanging party that is sent after me, I simply don't see any serious hustler playing a light this way. Sorry.

Yiannis, I was serious when I said I meant no offense.

CC
Message: Posted by: splice (Nov 29, 2007 03:49PM)
I don't think Doc studied memory techniques for magic tricks, but what do I know.

Nothing to see here, move along.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Nov 29, 2007 04:51PM)
And who said that DOC studied memory techniques to facilitate glim work?

Honestly, it doesn't matter. I'm pretty comfortable with what I have said, as are you.

Now, you have a nice day.

CC
Message: Posted by: h2o (Nov 29, 2007 05:26PM)
Just my 2c, but I think there's a big difference between quietly spreading all the cards to memorize them and being at the card table and trying to peek the cards in a natural way while dealing... By the way, who seriously needs to memorize a 52 cards deck? I know one guy who is able to tell you all the capitals of every country in the world. That's fine, he's able to get some extra points in some quizz games, but what's the point? I've never tried to use any kind of memory system but I'm able to easily memorize at least 4-5 cards, and sometimes that's more than enough...
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 29, 2007 05:43PM)
By the way, who seriously needs to memorize a 52 cards deck?

“Stu Ungar, who had a genius level IQ and an eidetic memory, was able to keep track of every card in a six-deck blackjack shoe. In 1977 he was bet $100,000 by Bob Stupak, an owner and designer of casinos, that he could not count down the last three decks in a six deck shoe. Ungar won the bet.”
Message: Posted by: MandyMarks (Nov 29, 2007 06:43PM)
I had not heard this expression 'playing the light' before. It is very poetic.

I just wanted to say the women have an advantage in this area. Shiny gold or silver rings do not arouse as much suspicion on a woman. I will have to look at these memory systems. At the moment I only play blackjack and a hole card or two is enough to make for a pleasant evening.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 29, 2007 07:21PM)
I have read of women painting glossy nail polish on their hand and playing light with that. Which sounds poetic and artistic but I think it is BS.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Nov 29, 2007 08:15PM)
Doc,

I'll PM you the info you want.

I've been using the Dominic system since 1999 and up until 3 months ago I could memorize the entire deck in just under a minute. With Pridmore's technique (which is really an upgrade to Dominic's technique) I can now do it, in a good day, in less than 40 seconds. To memorize 6 packs currently takes me about 7 - 8 minutes.

People who haven't used memory systems before, concentrate too hard to remember the order of the cards. With sufficient practice, the process of memorizing becomes automatic. You don't think about it, you don't pause while doing it and you can even talk while at it.

For gambling, either you memorize a stack from discards (which is very easy) or you read the marked deck while dealing or you play the light (having of course the proper technique). Specially for playing the light, just a slight glimse of the dealing card is all that is needed to memorize it. If you hit the "under one minute" mark in your practice, you'll see how this process is possible.

There's nothing magical about it, is not a special gift, just consistent training with the proper system.

CC,

no offense taken, just being playful. It's great to be in this forum and exchange all this wonderful information for free. I respect your opinion, and I'm just offering my point of view.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Nov 29, 2007 09:58PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-29 18:43, tommy wrote:
By the way, who seriously needs to memorize a 52 cards deck?

“Stu Ungar, who had a genius level IQ and an eidetic memory, was able to keep track of every card in a six-deck blackjack shoe. In 1977 he was bet $100,000 by Bob Stupak, an owner and designer of casinos, that he could not count down the last three decks in a six deck shoe. Ungar won the bet.”
[/quote]

And in a game like gin rummy, or blackjack, this ability can be a major asset.

In today's poker games, this would not be so valuable. Sure, knowing what is going to hit the board is a great edge (over the long run, it is unbeatable.) But, you don't need advanced mnemonics to accomplish this. You certainly can't do it with even the world's best shiner. There are several ways to do this that don't involve gaffs, and are actually quite simple.

Again, I can see how a shiner could really put the hurt on a bankroll or two. I just don't think that it's ever played out to the extent that some have implied or fantasized that it is.

Yiannis, that's what I like about you: you've got class. Thank you for not taking offense.

CC
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Nov 29, 2007 10:01PM)
Yiannis, that's what I like about you: you've got class. Thank you for not taking offense.

CC
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 29, 2007 10:42PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-29 16:49, splice wrote:
I don't think Doc studied memory techniques for magic tricks, but what do I know.
[/quote]
[quote]
On 2007-11-29 17:51, card cheat wrote:
And who said that DOC studied memory techniques to facilitate glim work?

Honestly, it doesn't matter.

CC
[/quote]

Who said? I said; and it does matter.

Splice thanks for defending me, I’m just glad I’m not Erdnase (dead) who can’t speak for himself.

Card Cheat your lack of expertise is starting to show and you have me pegged as some kind of sucker. You really believe that I would learn memory techniques to do magic tricks with? For the record I learned it to cheat and to rob robbers like you with who think that only knowing a few cards is an advantage of which is only partially true; knowing all is way even better but if you really want to find out, just play me but due to the fact that we’re partners in crime that will not be necessary.

I'm not sure what you're getting at and it's not that important but what I would like to say is, and I'm not sure if I'm right. I was in the same position as you are, being able to see the cards in my ring but not able to remember them, this is why I mentioned adding the totals for Tonk and black jack because that was simple (knowing how many points a man has in his hand).

My losing problem came when playing Coon Can and Knock Rummy, this is a shorter version of Gin Rummy to those who don’t know of these games that the blacks and Islander's play. I tried to use the total technique with these games but it didn't work because melds in your hand added up to nothing just like in Gin so I had to better my technique. So in my quest for help in this area I sought out Sal P. after re-meeting him again after about 15 years through Steve.

I went out to Sal's place and boy did he entertain my friend and I with his sleight of hand and memory techniques. After such a display of talent I begged for lessons of which he kindly helped me in. He also gave me a memory program that his nephew made for him to practice with (you will hear this in my footage). This is what started me to practicing.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=67011&forum=2&post=3681369

While waiting for the Dominic System book to come back out I made up my own system of remembering cards, which I still haven't mastered completely. But why Doc? Because I cheat at these games using other techniques therefore making me too lazy to further my studies in the area but when I was making up my own system, Jason E. and Yiannis are the guys who came to my rescue pointing me in the right direction as Yiannis is doing now for you but you don't want to listen.

This is why I'm co-signing for him and confirming his statements about it as being true because I've already traveled that road that you won't go down. Please don't feel that everyone is on my side and we're teaming up against you because this is not true. Friends help friends and we are entitled to disagree with one another now and then in particular areas of our trade.

I told this forum that I wanted to be the best at what I did so I ventured down many paths to achieve this goal even though I have grown wearisome while in the process. Yes I’ve learned a lot and I have made many a mistakes while doing it and I’ll probably make many more in my travels but I’m still here holding on while trying to direct the less fortunate in the right direction so they can achieve the goal in which they seek. If only ya’ll believe, search, study and then practice, only then will you become one of the elite.

Note: Many of you PM me asking me for answers and just expect me to give it to you and I won’t. Search, study, practice and make your mistakes and you’ll learn what and what don’t work. I just direct, show what’s possible and what exist; it’s your duty to do the rest. This is nothing but ERDNASE LIVE AT THE MAGICE CAFÉ!

Okay So Kill Me

People get on me for posting footage of things when all I’m doing is visually showing my readers of my encounters with individuals who were experts in their fields, Many here think that I’m trying to prove that I have all the sense and no one else has any and this is not true; I’m only trying to help if ya’ll will just listen and periodically read between the lines.

So here I go again….

Card Cheat in this footage you will hear me asking my friend is it possible to deal cards at a speed where you can see them and remember them all at the same time while using the light. My friend says yes and then demonstrates that it can be done even though he doesn’t play the light. One thing should be noted also in this footage, even though my friend used to, he no longer practice with the suits because it’s not needed when playing black jack; so why practice something you will not ever use?

Note: Student’s you will see that we don’t use everything that we’ve ever learned. Why? Cheats ONLY PRACTICE what they need in order to get the money; everything else is just a waste of time and this is what ya’ll are doing by trying to learn every deal, every muck, every stack, every hop and so on and so on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN9rjb_kErA

Card Cheat here is my program that I had made up by a guy who stole it from me after partially making it (He told me because he made it, it was his (my idea but it was his). This program was never finished.

http://plaza.ufl.edu/buchnerk/memory.swf

Here is the Link when I spoke about him stealing it.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=70635&forum=2&post=3681688

Conclusion:

Card Cheat the technique exist and as you can see remembering single cards for poker can be done extremely fast just like State Street Eddie did when he used to hustle; you’re just lazy like I am….oh, and as you can hear/see, I didn’t learn mine for magical purposes.

Respectfully,

Doc

P.S. Yiannis thank you very much for your continued help in this area. Still your student...Doc
Message: Posted by: h2o (Nov 30, 2007 02:32AM)
That was a lengthy but interesting discussion. I really didn't know or imagined all those possibilities and so I never took the time to think and study about those memory techniques. I was just a sucker.
Thanks Yiannis and Doc for your great expertise and for taking your time to educate us. Respect for both of you.
Message: Posted by: Jeremy Brown (Nov 30, 2007 07:56AM)
Doc thankyou so much for sharing.

Jeremy
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 30, 2007 11:01AM)
Ann Pike

Memory Gambler

My daughter asks, "When was I born?
When did I get my first tooth?"
My eyes roll like windows
of a slot machine
spinning pictures
empty as beer bottles.

She waits again hoping
I'll hit the jackpot.

I pull the handle,
plug in two more quarters,
spin memory like one obsessed,
watch years roll, turn over and over,
years of cleaned ashtrays,
Michelob cans restacked in cases,
an empty bed unmade --
behind it bent coils of tabs
her father hammered
into lattice curtains.

She wants me to reclaim each tooth
like three lucky cherries.
Through the narrow slits all
I see is him him him
his body in the recliner
an open mouth--
a rusted out machine.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Nov 30, 2007 11:09AM)
Tommy you know that you really have too much time on your hands...nice post about the most amazing thing you ever saw. It was the most amazing thing I ever saw too.

Take Care

Doc
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 30, 2007 03:16PM)
:) If you have 47 minutes.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6378985927858479238

By the way Doc thanks for sharing. I sometimes forget to say thanks. :)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 30, 2007 03:51PM)
Seems to me after watching that that one could remenber cards like telephone numbers if you forget about the suits and see tens and court cards as 0. I just tried that and I can recall 14 cards easy doing that. Like recalling two 7 digit telephone numbers.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Nov 30, 2007 04:45PM)
We worked a scam once that involved memorizing a slug of cards and we treated it like a license plate number from a car.

CC
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 4, 2007 04:16PM)
DOC,

For the record, I never said that you learned any memory techniques for magic tricks. I simply said that I don't think that using a glim to clock every card dealt to every other person at the table is practical at all. Go back and read my posts again, if you need to.

You can come on here and write a post of any length, saying whatever you want about me and my "lack of expertise." At the end of the day, you have NO idea who I am and what I know or what I don't. I still get money, my friend.

And, at the end of the day, I STILL don't believe that good men play a shiner like that.

Tell me, DOC: do you use a glim to track EVERY card that you deal to the players? Is that how you, a left-handed dealer, play the light?

Do you REALLY think that this is how it's done by the good guys?

Tell you what...

You seem to like making video clips, and everyone else seems to like watching them. So, here is my suggestion:

Film yourself washing, shuffling up, and cutting a deck. Then deal them to (i'll go easy on you) seven players, all the while peeking every card, keeping track of their postions and assimilating this info.

Then, deal the flop and tell us which hand hit the board and what exactly they hit before you turn over the cards. At this time, you can really dazzle us all by telling us what the other six players have in the pocket, as well.

We'll be looking for natural dealing style and accuracy in your memorization of the cards that you glimpsed with your shiner. Oh, and on that note, you can also show us the shiner that you used to make your reads.

You backed me into a corner here, DOC. I'm sorry to call you out. If you can prove me wrong, I'll be a man and admit that I was wrong. Will you do the same?

As far as the video clip that you showed of the memory technique being demonstrated on the BJ table goes....

I find it really impressive that anyone could flip cards over on a table so rapidly, look at them for such a short period of time, box them up, and recite their order from memory. That was a really cool demo.

Unfortunately, it has little to do with our micro-contraversy here, as the demonstrator in that video didn't use a shiner, wasn't in live gameplay, and wasn't peeking the cards while they were being dealt to players that were watching him deal the cards at a normal speed and tempo.

See, this whole time, I haven't been arguing that mnemonics could be applied to card cheating. As I said before, I have worked scams that involved memory applications. To be honest, mnemonics were being used to take down casino table games long before this forum even existed.

What I HAVE been saying (again, reread my previous entries) this whole time, is that it is not practical to use a shiner to peek each and every card dealt to each and every player and to then keep track of all of those different cards. For many reasons, most of which I have already mentioned, it just isn't practical. My stance on the issue is that there are better ways to use a shiner. To me, reading every card while dealing (and appearing as though you aren't doing so), and keeping track of ALL of that information in a game seems like something out of a movie.

I mean no disrespect to you, but don't make me out to be some sucker that doesn't know what he's talking about. I've earned what I know, and never claimed to know more than I do. Don't think for one second, that just because you have a fan club, that I won't call you out. Fair is fair.

CC
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 4, 2007 05:40PM)
I can do it.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 4, 2007 06:04PM)
Then let us see.

CC
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 4, 2007 06:05PM)
I think I sense a bet comming or are you just talking.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 4, 2007 06:13PM)
I don't have to bet you anything.

You stood up in front of many and said that you could do this.

Man-up.

CC
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 4, 2007 06:33PM)
Well if you don't want to bet...

I would have cheated anyway.



I own a deck of marked cards.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Dec 4, 2007 06:55PM)
CC,

people's reputation speak for themselves. Those who have been here long enough, know who Doc and Tommy are, what their experience is and why they don't have to prove themselves.

Doc has a great deal of admirers in this forum, because he is an original character and proven to be one of the best in his field. Backed up by the internationaly best in gambling and casino consulting. Further more, his essays, videos and stories are gold mines of information that you can't find anywhere else. It's very easy to see why such an individual is highly praised and sought after.

As far as how a shiner can be used, this is something that people have to decide for themselves. And find out like Doc had, the hard way, which way is the best for them. But you can save yourself a lot of grief if you can learn through someone else's mistakes, especialy someone with a working knowledge.

You believe that the high speed method of memorizing cards using the method that Doc's advocates is impractical. I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with you. I believe that it's only impractical to those that don't have experience with advanced memory systems. And of course to those who don't want to invest the amount of time to master such system. To give you an idea how hard the advanced systems are, you have to memorize before hand 2704 images and be able to recall them instantly. The amount of time spent is like trying to learn any other difficult gambling sleight, like the hop or the greek deal.

Tommy,

you hustler! :)
Message: Posted by: Ron Conley (Dec 4, 2007 07:11PM)
Check this link CC some of these folk may have abilities you don't understand.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314681,00.html
Message: Posted by: Ron Conley (Dec 4, 2007 07:13PM)
You will have to cut and past the link.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314681,00.html
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 4, 2007 09:26PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-04 19:55, Yiannis wrote:
You believe that the high speed method of memorizing cards using the method that Doc's advocates is impractical.
[/quote]

No... let's try this again:

I NEVER said that those memory techniques are impractical. I said that using a shiner to peg each and every player's cards is impractical. It's the shiner that ruins it for me, not the memory techniques. This thread was started on the topic of shiners, not memory techniques. I don't get what it is that you aren't understanding about that.

Tommy,

I knew from the get go that you would have cheated.

Doesn't surprise me, but thanks for being honest about your dishonesty.

Mr. Conley,

Again, I know that incredible feats of memory are possible. I also know that they can be quite useful in gaming applications when it comes to cheating (and square play.)

But, with all due respect, that article didn't mention using a shiner. Therefore, again with all due respect, I don't see how that can be expected to alter my opinion. I do appreciate your involvement in the thread and your contribution to it, as well. Interesting article...

CC
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Dec 5, 2007 02:42AM)
CC,

I do understand what you are saying about the shiner. What I don't understand about your statement is, why do you consider this way as impractical. Is it impractical because it's difficult to play the light this way? Or is it impractical application wise?

Doc's shiner technique AND a working memory system, I believe is a very practical system which beats every other gambling sleight and stratagem around (with the exception of a cooler).

And for the record, I write my opinion only for argument's shake, offering a different angle. Changing other people's opinion is what is impractical in my point of view.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 5, 2007 03:35AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-04 17:16, card cheat wrote:
DOC,

For the record, I never said that you learned any memory techniques for magic tricks. I simply said that I don't think that using a glim to clock every card dealt to every other person at the table is practical at all. Go back and read my posts again, if you need to.
[/quote]

[quote]
On 2007-11-29 16:49, splice wrote:
I don't think Doc studied memory techniques for magic tricks, but what do I know.
[/quote]
[quote]
On 2007-11-29 17:51, card cheat wrote:
And who said that DOC studied memory techniques to facilitate glim work?

Honestly, it doesn't matter.

CC
[/quote]

I went back and read your post and it sounds clear to me that you said it. Question…now if I didn’t study memory techniques to facilitate glim work and you heard this in my video footage, than what did I study it for?

[quote]
You can come on here and write a post of any length, saying whatever you want about me and my "lack of expertise."
[/quote]

Every person’s knowledge is limited to a certain degree about certain things and yours is no exception. The feat is possible even if neither you nor I can do it as Yiannis explained.

[quote]
At the end of the day, you have NO idea who I am and what I know or what I don't. I still get money, my friend.
[/quote]

There is no argument or disagreement here.

[quote]
And, at the end of the day, I STILL don't believe that good men play a shiner like that.
[/quote]

Because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean that it’s not possible.

[quote]
Tell me, DOC: do you use a glim to track EVERY card that you deal to the players?
[/quote]

No. Why? I don’t play Texas Hold ‘em. Why? Even though I know how to play the game, if I can’t cheat I don’t play. Have you ever cheated in a Texas Hold ‘em game? Yes, but the rules were slightly different. I played Hold ‘em where the deal walks and I played in a game where there was a stationary dealer but the players at anytime can cut the deck.

[quote]
Is that how you, a left-handed dealer, play the light?
[/quote]

Yes I would. I’m currently going back to studying my memory technique because of what information Yiannis just sent me. It simplified my memory technique and I will be using it in the near future.

[quote]
Do you REALLY think that this is how it's done by the good guys?
[/quote]

To be honest with you, no, but the Doc is not ordinary, I’m an exception to the rule. I’m a card cheat genius and I invent my own stuff and that’s why I was good before I met the best of the best and so was Allen Kennedy who re-invented the middle deal, so was Dad Steven’s who mastered the Steven’s Cull, so was State Street Eddie who mastered the glimmer, and so was Steve F. who mastered shuffling techniques and so is Al Halcon who re-invented the Greek Deal. To hell with the good guys., I’m not saying that they are not good at what they do but there’s only one Michael Jordan, one Muhammad Ali, one Tiger Woods, one Evel Knievel and only one Frank Lucas. Even though the good guys did it, it wasn’t done like these guys did it.

[quote]
Tell you what...

You seem to like making video clips, and everyone else seems to like watching them. So, here is my suggestion:
[/quote]

I don’t like making video clips. Why? Because I’m too lazy to make them and it’s too much work setting the stuff up then connecting it to my computer sending it to iMovie then editing and saving it then uploading it to YouTube with a dial-up modem from my cell phone.

[quote]
Film yourself washing, shuffling up, and cutting a deck. Then deal them to (I’ll go easy on you) seven players, all the while peeking every card, keeping track of their positions and assimilating this info.

Then, deal the flop and tell us which hand hit the board and what exactly they hit before you turn over the cards. At this time, you can really dazzle us all by telling us what the other six players have in the pocket, as well.

We'll be looking for natural dealing style and accuracy in your memorization of the cards that you glimpsed with your shiner. Oh, and on that note, you can also show us the shiner that you used to make your reads.
[/quote]

Doc don’t do that and if you come into my world you would see why not. Cheats do not practice what they don’t need; do you remember these words that I mentioned not too long ago? In my world we brew the cards, use the over hand shuffle, the Hindu shuffle and the in the hands riffle shuffle; if we do the table shuffle we would look like an experienced dealer and this is a no, no and this is why I don’t practice it.

Note: I cheat in Texas Hold’em games where the deal walks (each player deals) and when you can cut on a stationary dealer to protect your money. I play according to the environment I’m in and when I cold deck I can tell you exactly what every player has in their hand and what will hit the board because I peeked what they was going to get when I set up the deck in the bathroom and the deal won’t only look natural but it will be natural because I won’t be dealing.

[quote]
DOC. I'm sorry to call you out. If you can prove me wrong, I'll be a man and admit that I was wrong. Will you do the same?
[/quote]

Of course but it looks as though you’ve already backed me into the corner on this one only because I’ve already admitted in a number of threads and post that I don’t play Texas Hold ‘em because I can’t cheat in that game.

Readers it should be noted that hustlers/suckers has always made it easy for them to cheat the card players. Why? What card games have you ever played for money besides Texas Hold ‘em where you can’t cut the cards to prevent yourself from being cheated? None.

Them casinos/suckers got a hold of some dealers who could riffle stack but couldn’t do a decent enough hop to get the deck back in order so what did they do? They make up a rule telling the players that they can’t cut the deck because it takes up too much time from the deal….bullsh*t, They let you cut the deck in black jack so why not poker? because different games require different cheating techniques and if everyone continues to cut the deck, the dealer won’t be able to cheat the players and the house won’t make extra money.

Let me make a movie like the movie “Shade” and show the world why they should cut the deck (so that I can cold deck) and the casino world will have to change their policy on this !@#$%^&*.”

[quote]
What I HAVE been saying (again, reread my previous entries) this whole time, is that it is not practical to use a shiner to peek each and every card dealt to each and every player and to then keep track of all of those different cards. For many reasons, most of which I have already mentioned, it just isn't practical. My stance on the issue is that there are better ways to use a shiner. To me, reading every card while dealing (and appearing as though you aren't doing so), and keeping track of ALL of that information in a game seems like something out of a movie.
[/quote]

Card Cheat I agree with you but then again I don’t. Why? Since you are dealing with your world I can understand what you’re talking about because as I read what you wrote, you are only talking about Texas Hold’em where it is logical but realistically not. Why would I need all of this information if I were dealing? I wouldn’t and this is why I agree with you but I don’t agree with you especially if I was playing Gin, Coon Can, Knock Rummy, Pitch, or Tonk head up.

[quote]
I mean no disrespect to you, but don't make me out to be some sucker that doesn't know what he's talking about. I've earned what I know, and never claimed to know more than I do. Don't think for one second, that just because you have a fan club, that I won't call you out. Fair is fair.
[/quote]

I mean no disrespect to you either but because you don’t know of an existence of something doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist or that it never existed.

[quote]
Fay’s Gambling Methods

After having carefully studied the various methods published for “dealing seconds,” “Peeking the glimmer,” and “sleeving cards,” and having watched a host of so-called experts among the conjuring fraternity attempt them, we make this statement without prejudice. We have yet to see anyone other than Eddie Fay perform these sleights undetectably, or in a manner that would pass unobserved, that is, without undue movement of the hands to confuse or cover some defect therein.

Furthermore, we sincerely doubt if there has ever been published before a description of the proper use of the “glimmer: and method for sleeving cards that, if truthfully and implicitly followed in the most expert manner, could ever be performed undetectably; but of course that is only our opinion, and we do not question your right to disagree with us.

Mr. Fay was not a magician, he had no desire to be one, and in fact could care less for card tricks,. Thus, he did not think like a magician and only used cards as a means to acquire money.

It was back during our university days in Denver when we first met this sharper. He had been a professional gambler, traveling the Western circuits for many years. During the course of his travels he had acquired the nickname of “State Street Eddie.” We became close friends and brought him to Chicago to “demonstrate: for the boys. Mr. Eddie Fields to the contrary, it was the author who arranged a secret meeting between Fay, Marlo, and Fields. After watching Fay perform with the pasteboards in our hotel room, both Fields and Marlo begged for lessons, as a result they paid dearly for private coaching.

At one private session, Paul LePaul watched “State Street” work for a full two hours, then he turned to us and said, “I have no idea how he does it –real miracles.” The always suspicious Rufus Steele looked up and shook his head, saying, “unbelievable, Paul incredible.”

The methods described below are those actually used by Fay, and are described exactly as he performed them…You will have weapons so excellent that you will rate as a master among the less initiated, even though you may possess the ability to do little less.

However, let us warn you that there is no easy road to Utopia. These methods are difficult to learn, very difficult in fact, but if you practice for at least sixty-five hours, in half-hour sessions, you will graduate into a class you have only dreamed about.

Peek And Deal: This perfect piece of deception leaves nothing to be desired. It is the most practical and best of all handlings for the “Glimmer” or “Peek Mirror.” The applications for its use are unlimited. The glimmer is usually practiced by the sharper who specialized in playing a single opponent stud poker because its use gives him knowledge of the opponent’s hole card. “State Street” Eddie however, was so proficient in the use of the glimmer that he could deal out five hands of draw poker, remember every card dealt out (as it flashed in the mirror) and after the draw, knew every card in the other players’ hands.

Magical Calculation: Requiring something extra-special and different for a demonstration before a large gathering of the magical fraternity, Eddie came up with an excellent exhibition of rapid-fire calculation, which never failed to astonish and mystify all those present. Upon receiving back a pack of cards which had been freely and thoroughly shuffled, Eddie would deal out in the regulation manner two hands of cards, dealing until the cards had been completely dealt out, twenty-six to his opponent and twenty-six to himself. Immediately, having dealt out all the cards, Fay would announce, “Ladies and Gentlemen, you have handed me a well shuffled pack of cards. I IMMEDIATELY DEALT OUT, the cards into two hands of twenty-six cards similar to a game of Rummy. Not only did I secretly glimpse or peek at every card dealt, but I also made use of my photographic memory. Then, in a split second, by my ability to function not unlike a rapid calculator or a highly transistorized computer, I have totaled the value of all the cards in my opponent’s hand. You, sir, have a total of 197 points in your hand. Please turn the cards face-up and verify that by counting and totaling your cards aloud.”

As the opponent would attempt to verify this by totaling up the value of the cards, the fun would begin. His opponent would always make a mistake or two, and it took him four or five times longer to total his cards then it took “State Street” to give the total – and remember, he never saw the faces of the cards!

Naturally, this required the dexterity and ability to glimpse and total the opponent’s cards as he dealt out the cards for a two handed game. Fay was so skilled in this deviltry that he seldom, if ever, was more than one or two points off.

During the whole procedure of the “Peek and Deal: DO NOT LOOK AT THE PACK. This is one of the essentials of the real secret. At times, Fay would deal with one hand only, and get his glimpse as the card was thumbed off onto the table.

This piece of card manipulation was a masterpiece in Fay’s hands, and he often told us that of those to whom he taught it, ONLY ED MARLO EVER PERFECTED IT. As previously stated, it has many applications and should be deftly acquired by all card experts. To our knowledge nothing like it has ever been printed.
[/quote]

Card Cheat if this story is not true and I believe that it is, then the magicians have lied to me again and sent me on a wild goose chase but I believe this story because it rings true and I have seen that it could be possible only if one practice this technique to the level that’s described above; if and when that day do comes along only then will I posses the goose that lays the golden eggs.


Notes on Stacking

Worst

To me stacking gets the money but it is an inferior technique and it can rank you. Why? For a number of reasons, first thing you have to do before you stack and deal is…11 perfect moves in front of players watching you.

1. Pick up a deck (1 move)
2. Look through the deck (1 move) and take out 3 cards (3 moves)
3. Place the 3 cards on the top or bottom of the deck (1 move)
4. Riffle stack the 3 cards into the position you want them. (3 moves)
5. Make a brief, crimp or hop the deck (1 move)
6. Deal the cards (1 move)

An Alternative Using Your Memory

Better

Glance through deck while picking it up noting positions of 3 fours at position 2, 9 and 17. False shuffle the deck retaining the order and deal seconds for a 4 handed game. This technique eliminates people from watching you take 3 cards and placing them on the top of the deck. It goes like this…

R = regular deal
S = second deal

R, 2ND, 2ND, (= 4) R,R,R,(2ND= 4) R,R,R,R ,R,R,R, (2ND= 4)

You should have 3 fours in front of you.

Cold Decking

Nothing Better

To me this is the best. Why? You go to the rest room, lock the door and set up the deck so that the major big money players lose while making sure that no one sees you. When you come out of the bathroom wait until the guy/lady next to you get ready to deal and cold deck him. (1 move gets all the money and you didn’t deal)

Less is always better when you’re cheating.


Respectfully,

Doc Holiday
Message: Posted by: Ron Conley (Dec 5, 2007 04:28AM)
I put that link up for amusement, yes it's funny that chimps did better than the humans. I was not trying to make a case for using the light to memorize every card in a casino game. Sorry if anyone took it any other way.

The light is one of the great pass the deck moves, heads up poker short cards like gin etc. The value decreases as the game gets more players but still has value. The light has always been a great move for beating half smarts who are looking for some kind of slight of hand. Take the man who is leery of being cheated, so he brings his own cards, shuffles behind you every time and randomly counts down the deck. If he doesn't know the light you own him, I got beat with the light twice when I was a kid and that's after I thought I knew it. However my two friends street sense and card sense saved me from getting broke.

As for the casino or formal center dealer game it's one of the few moves that's not nullified by the shuffling machines. Once again the strongest value will be in the short handed high limit games, probably nailing only one or two hands. First base will be the easiest position to peek because of the natural change in tempo when the deck is swinging to the other side of the table.

As for memorizing all the cards in a full game, I would need to see it to believe it. I clocked dealing speed last week in a nine-handed Holdem game they were getting two to three cards per second out, even the worlds record of 52 cards in a little over 26 seconds comes up a little short of the slower dealers. Let factor in a couple things say three of the players are agents for the dealer and you deal a little slow this would give you 18 seconds to memorize 12 cards, sounds possible.

But the real problem comes back to playing the light at that speed. Their is a way to play the light at that speed but it won't work in a casino where you have people right next to you and behind you plus the overhead pan and tilt cameras that can zoom right in on your hand. Their is a huge speed difference nailing one hand vs. the whole table with the type of light that can be played in a casino plus your going to have to burn the deck the entire time your pitching the cards.

I respect all the opinions that have been posted on this rather interesting thread and hope others will respect mine. If you know in your heart that I'm wrong that's OK. But if I made you think it through then that's a good thing.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Dec 5, 2007 04:36AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
[quote]
Fay’s Gambling Methods

However, let us warn you that there is no easy road to Utopia. These methods are difficult to learn, very difficult in fact, but if you practice for at least sixty-five hours, in half-hour sessions, you will graduate into a class you have only dreamed about.

Peek And Deal: This perfect piece of deception leaves nothing to be desired. It is the most practical and best of all handlings for the “Glimmer” or “Peek Mirror.” The applications for its use are unlimited. The glimmer is usually practiced by the sharper who specialized in playing a single opponent stud poker because its use gives him knowledge of the opponent’s hole card. “State Street” Eddie however, was so proficient in the use of the glimmer that he could deal out five hands of draw poker, remember every card dealt out (as it flashed in the mirror) and after the draw, knew every card in the other players’ hands.
[/quote][/quote]

Exactly! Spot on Doc.

Mr Conley,
you are right that the casino conditions make this technique difficult if not impossible. My references to cheating using the light and memory work were made regarding private games only.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 5, 2007 10:34AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-05 03:42, Yiannis wrote:
What I don't understand about your statement is, why do you consider this way as impractical. Is it impractical because it's difficult to play the light this way? Or is it impractical application wise?
[/quote]

Yiannis,

I'm not sure I understand what it is that you are asking. Perhaps you could restate your questions?

CC
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 5, 2007 12:28PM)
Recalling the cards that you have peeked is the least of your worries when playing the light. First and foremost one must be able to play the light without arousing suspicion. If you get caught playing the light that is something you will not forget without any aid of memory technique. Every card you peek is a move and with every peek the chances of being nailed increases. On that basis, and not on the basis of personal experience, I am inclined to say I would not use it to peek every card. If I did use it at all I would use it as CC as suggested for poker.
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 5, 2007 01:07PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-05 13:28, tommy wrote:
Every card you peek is a move and with every peek the chances of being nailed increases.
[/quote]

Once again genius shines through. (no pun intended) What the couple hundred folks that read on this forum just can't seem to understand.

You Do Not Move on an Entire Game. Period.

In a fast game a pro may move once, twice or not at all if the cards come right. They minimize risk and maximize gain, always avoiding moving on the big pot, a clear newby give away. Naturally they still play for the pot if they can.

A Dairyman doesn't milk till the cow bleeds. He takes what they have to give and they go away happy, coming back to the miking parlor without being called. Think on that.
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 5, 2007 01:10PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
(1 move gets all the money and you didn’t deal)

Less is always better when you’re cheating.


Respectfully,

Doc Holiday
[/quote]

More genius.

Folks need to stop reading and start reading between the lines. Gems are always taken from mere dirt.
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 5, 2007 01:33PM)
One more bit before I'm done. When Ron is talking about the new PTZ cameras/systems you better pay attention. He knows what he is taking about and needs to be given his due.
Message: Posted by: splice (Dec 5, 2007 01:39PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-05 14:10, KingStardog wrote:

Folks need to stop reading and start reading between the lines.
[/quote]

I think that's been said enough by now that those who already know don't need to be told and those that don't won't ever learn.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 5, 2007 01:39PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-05 13:28, tommy wrote:
Recalling the cards that you have peeked is the least of your worries when playing the light. First and foremost one must be able to play the light without arousing suspicion. If you get caught playing the light that is something you will not forget without any aid of memory technique. Every card you peek is a move and with every peek the chances of being nailed increases. On that basis, and not on the basis of personal experience, I am inclined to say I would not use it to peek every card. If I did use it at all I would use it as CC as suggested for poker.
[/quote]

Tommy Card Cheat's logic is correct in all aspects as is yours but there are exceptions to the rule, this is why I would only play head up for the same reason that ya'll just mentioned because it's natural for you to look down while you're dealing in a heads up game but as Mr. Conley stated not constantly at your hands as in a poker game setting because you would be burning the deck; When dealing around, the punch technique is my preferred choice.

Take Care

Doc
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 5, 2007 05:09PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
I went back and read your post and it sounds clear to me that you said it. Question…now if I didn’t study memory techniques to facilitate glim work and you heard this in my video footage, than what did I study it for?
[/quote]

There are many ways, aside from glim-work, that memory techniques can be applied to cheating at cardplay.

The FACT here is that I never said that you studied memory techniques for magic.

Think about it for a second. I don't believe that even the most advanced memory techniques can iron out the kinks in shiner play. Therefore, it is natural for me to assume that you took time to learn these memory techniques and mnemonics for other scams.

These memory techniques would be much more valuable to you if you would put your shiner away and learn some shuffle work.

If you're playing in a game that's "cheat proof", either learn to beat that game or go find a new one.

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
The feat is possible even if neither you nor I can do it as Yiannis explained.
[/quote]

On that note, it is possible for a cow to sprout wings, breathe fire and take out Tokyo. But, I will call that impossible until I see it done.

Learning memory techniques and being able to accomplish astounding things with them is possible; it's also been occuring for quite some time now. THAT is possible.

But, like our fire-breathing airborne cow scenario , I will believe this whole miracle-glim fairytale when I see it. And, as in the case of our fire-breathing airborne cow, I won't be holding my breath.

Nobody should.

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
Because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean that it’s not possible.
[/quote]

Well, in a matter of speaking, you're on to something there.

But, I believe that I HAVE NOT seen it for a reason.

Does it seem more logical to you, in this case, to believe that we HAVEN'T seen it because it IS possible, or that we HAVEN'T seen it because it just ain't done like that?

[quote]
Tell me, DOC: do you use a glim to track EVERY card that you deal to the players?
[/quote]

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
No. Why? I don’t play Texas Hold ‘em. Why? Even though I know how to play the game, if I can’t cheat I don’t play. Have you ever cheated in a Texas Hold ‘em game? Yes, but the rules were slightly different. I played Hold ‘em where the deal walks and I played in a game where there was a stationary dealer but the players at anytime can cut the deck.
[/quote]

Um, excuse me, but if you can deal the cards then you can use a shiner. So, I don't see how the excuse you make above really applies. A little help?

And, come to think of it, there's something that I REALLY need your help understanding:

You say that you won't play Hold 'em if you can't cheat, and that you can't cheat because there is a house dealer and any player can cut the cards at any time.

If you can cut the deck at any time, why not just ring in a cooler?

So... if you can deal you can cheat with a shiner. If you can't deal you can cheat with a cooler.

But, if you can't cheat you don't play.

Am I the only one puzzled by this?

[quote]
Is that how you, a left-handed dealer, play the light?
[/quote]

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
Yes I would. I’m currently going back to studying my memory technique because of what information Yiannis just sent me. It simplified my memory technique and I will be using it in the near future.
[/quote]

So, you do or don't play the light?

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
To be honest with you, no, but the Doc is not ordinary, I’m an exception to the rule. I’m a card cheat genius and I invent my own stuff and that’s why I was good before I met the best of the best and so was Allen Kennedy who re-invented the middle deal, so was Dad Steven’s who mastered the Steven’s Cull, so was State Street Eddie who mastered the glimmer, and so was Steve F. who mastered shuffling techniques and so is Al Halcon who re-invented the Greek Deal. To hell with the good guys., I’m not saying that they are not good at what they do but there’s only one Michael Jordan, one Muhammad Ali, one Tiger Woods, one Evel Knievel and only one Frank Lucas. Even though the good guys did it, it wasn’t done like these guys did it.
[/quote]

Wow.

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
I don’t like making video clips. Why? Because I’m too lazy to make them and it’s too much work setting the stuff up then connecting it to my computer sending it to iMovie then editing and saving it then uploading it to YouTube with a dial-up modem from my cell phone.
[/quote]

I don't buy it.

You post epic length writings and video clips all the time. All of the sudden it's a pain for you to do so?


[quote]
Film yourself washing, shuffling up, and cutting a deck. Then deal them to (I’ll go easy on you) seven players, all the while peeking every card, keeping track of their positions and assimilating this info.

Then, deal the flop and tell us which hand hit the board and what exactly they hit before you turn over the cards. At this time, you can really dazzle us all by telling us what the other six players have in the pocket, as well.

We'll be looking for natural dealing style and accuracy in your memorization of the cards that you glimpsed with your shiner. Oh, and on that note, you can also show us the shiner that you used to make your reads.
[/quote]

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
Doc don’t do that and if you come into my world you would see why not. Cheats do not practice what they don’t need; do you remember these words that I mentioned not too long ago? In my world we brew the cards, use the over hand shuffle, the Hindu shuffle and the in the hands riffle shuffle; if we do the table shuffle we would look like an experienced dealer and this is a no, no and this is why I don’t practice it.
[/quote]

Hmmm....

First of all, I didn't stipulate what kind of shuffle you had to use.

Second of all, what type of shuffle you use, or don't, has nothing to do with glim work.

As far as "coming into your world goes", I've hustled in NYC.

So... why can't you make that video?

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
Note: I cheat in Texas Hold’em games where the deal walks (each player deals) and when you can cut on a stationary dealer to protect your money. I play according to the environment I’m in and when I cold deck I can tell you exactly what every player has in their hand and what will hit the board because I peeked what they was going to get when I set up the deck in the bathroom and the deal won’t only look natural but it will be natural because I won’t be dealing.
[/quote]

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
No. Why? I don’t play Texas Hold ‘em.
[/quote]

Let's take a look at that again, shall we?

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
Note: I cheat in Texas Hold’em games where the deal walks (each player deals) and when you can cut on a stationary dealer to protect your money.
[/quote]

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
No. Why? I don’t play Texas Hold ‘em.
[/quote]

Do you have a split personality or something? Because you say that you do play, and work, Hold 'em. Then you say that you don't work Hold 'em. Kind of like:

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
Of course but it looks as though you’ve already backed me into the corner on this one only because I’ve already admitted in a number of threads and post that I don’t play Texas Hold ‘em because I can’t cheat in that game.
[/quote]

And, for your information, that game is beatable from many different angles, my friend. How can you be a "card cheat genius" and not be able to work this type poker game?

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
Them casinos/suckers got a hold of some dealers who could riffle stack but couldn’t do a decent enough hop to get the deck back in order so what did they do? They make up a rule telling the players that they can’t cut the deck because it takes up too much time from the deal….bullsh*t, They let you cut the deck in black jack so why not poker? because different games require different cheating techniques and if everyone continues to cut the deck, the dealer won’t be able to cheat the players and the house won’t make extra money.
[/quote]

I think someone else's "lack of expertise" is starting to show.

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
Let me make a movie like the movie “Shade” and show the world why they should cut the deck (so that I can cold deck) and the casino world will have to change their policy on this !@#$%^&*.”
[/quote]

Oh, brother.

In a casino poker room, even IF they allowed the fat slobs at the tables to put their grubby little hands on the deck to cut it, it would be a one handed cut on the table, directly onto a cut card. Perhaps you could show me a cooler move that could beat that? Oh, wait... you don't like making videos. How could I forget?

I like your deck switches, but they aren't useful in all situations.

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
Card Cheat I agree with you but then again I don’t. Why? Since you are dealing with your world I can understand what you’re talking about because as I read what you wrote, you are only talking about Texas Hold’em where it is logical but realistically not. Why would I need all of this information if I were dealing? I wouldn’t and this is why I agree with you but I don’t agree with you especially if I was playing Gin, Coon Can, Knock Rummy, Pitch, or Tonk head up.
[/quote]

There you go again, assuming that you know anything about me and "my world."

You don't.

And in a heads up game, a shiner can do some damage to say the least. However, your memory techniques could be better and more stealthily suited to accomplish much more devastating results and the best part is that there is no gaff, and no burning the light as you deal.

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
I mean no disrespect to you either but because you don’t know of an existence of something doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist or that it never existed.
[/quote]

There goes that fire-breathing, winged cow again. Watch out for it.

[quote]
Fay’s Gambling Methods

After having carefully studied the various methods published for “dealing seconds,” “Peeking the glimmer,” and “sleeving cards,” and having watched a host of so-called experts among the conjuring fraternity attempt them, we make this statement without prejudice. We have yet to see anyone other than Eddie Fay perform these sleights undetectably, or in a manner that would pass unobserved, that is, without undue movement of the hands to confuse or cover some defect therein.

Furthermore, we sincerely doubt if there has ever been published before a description of the proper use of the “glimmer: and method for sleeving cards that, if truthfully and implicitly followed in the most expert manner, could ever be performed undetectably; but of course that is only our opinion, and we do not question your right to disagree with us.

Mr. Fay was not a magician, he had no desire to be one, and in fact could care less for card tricks,. Thus, he did not think like a magician and only used cards as a means to acquire money.

It was back during our university days in Denver when we first met this sharper. He had been a professional gambler, traveling the Western circuits for many years. During the course of his travels he had acquired the nickname of “State Street Eddie.” We became close friends and brought him to Chicago to “demonstrate: for the boys. Mr. Eddie Fields to the contrary, it was the author who arranged a secret meeting between Fay, Marlo, and Fields. After watching Fay perform with the pasteboards in our hotel room, both Fields and Marlo begged for lessons, as a result they paid dearly for private coaching.

At one private session, Paul LePaul watched “State Street” work for a full two hours, then he turned to us and said, “I have no idea how he does it –real miracles.” The always suspicious Rufus Steele looked up and shook his head, saying, “unbelievable, Paul incredible.”

The methods described below are those actually used by Fay, and are described exactly as he performed them…You will have weapons so excellent that you will rate as a master among the less initiated, even though you may possess the ability to do little less.

However, let us warn you that there is no easy road to Utopia. These methods are difficult to learn, very difficult in fact, but if you practice for at least sixty-five hours, in half-hour sessions, you will graduate into a class you have only dreamed about.

Peek And Deal: This perfect piece of deception leaves nothing to be desired. It is the most practical and best of all handlings for the “Glimmer” or “Peek Mirror.” The applications for its use are unlimited. The glimmer is usually practiced by the sharper who specialized in playing a single opponent stud poker because its use gives him knowledge of the opponent’s hole card. “State Street” Eddie however, was so proficient in the use of the glimmer that he could deal out five hands of draw poker, remember every card dealt out (as it flashed in the mirror) and after the draw, knew every card in the other players’ hands.
[/quote]

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
Card Cheat if this story is not true and I believe that it is, then the magicians have lied to me again and sent me on a wild goose chase but I believe this story because it rings true and I have seen that it could be possible only if one practice this technique to the level that’s described above; if and when that day do comes along only then will I posses the goose that lays the golden eggs.
[/quote]

Just like a goose that lays golden eggs, this tale of glim work is a fantasy. Magicians telling tall tales? Nah...

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
To me stacking gets the money but it is an inferior technique and it can rank you. Why? For a number of reasons, first thing you have to do before you stack and deal is…11 perfect moves in front of players watching you.

1. Pick up a deck (1 move)
2. Look through the deck (1 move) and take out 3 cards (3 moves)
3. Place the 3 cards on the top or bottom of the deck (1 move)
4. Riffle stack the 3 cards into the position you want them. (3 moves)
5. Make a brief, crimp or hop the deck (1 move)
6. Deal the cards (1 move)
[/quote]

That's not how it's done, DOC. I think that you should stick to what you know.

I used to deal twos when I was getting started. Lately, stacking is all I do. There are so many different ways to work over a game with a riffle shuffle that I don't even know where to start. This goes for the mechanic who is playing alone and who has a partner or two.

[quote]
On 2007-12-05 04:35, Unknown419 wrote:
Glance through deck while picking it up noting positions of 3 fours at position 2, 9 and 17. False shuffle the deck retaining the order and deal seconds for a 4 handed game. This technique eliminates people from watching you take 3 cards and placing them on the top of the deck. It goes like this…
[/quote]

That still involves (to put this into your terms):

Picking up the deck (1 move)
Looking through the deck (1 move) - and seventeen cards down at that.
Counting the cards while looking through the deck (1 move)
False shuffling (3 moves if you shuffle three times)
False cut or hop the deck (1 move)
Deal twos (and according to your scenario that would be 4 moves)

That's 11 moves! And after all that work you got trip 4's. What a monster hand!

CC
Message: Posted by: dkgron (Dec 5, 2007 07:48PM)
Old Chinese Saying: Those who say something can't be done should get out of the way of those doing it.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Dec 5, 2007 08:12PM)
CC,

I asked why you think the light + memory techniques is impractical, the way the Doc and Fay explains it?

I believe that you consider it a "flying cow", because you cannot master it. That's all right. As I said before noone is trying to change your opinion, and I don't think Doc has to prove anything to you.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 5, 2007 10:01PM)
I don't consider it a flying cow because I "cannot master it." I think that using a shiner to track multiple cards dealt out multiple players, all the while at a normal speed without appearing to burn the deck in the slightest is a ridiculous thought. I would believe that red is blue before I believed that anyone could do this while appearing to do nothing out of the ordinary.

When it comes to peeking cards on the deal with a glim, and combining the ability to do so with powerful memory techniques (like those you kindly mentioned), I believe that one with a better memory would benefit more from the shiner than one with an inferior memory.

But I still don't think that a shiner could be used to dominate every player on every round dealt by the mechanic playing it.

Tell me something Yiannis - do you believe that this could be done?

Have you EVER seen it done?

As far as my not being able to "master" the technique, that has nothing to do with my opinion of this fantasy. I don't practice glim work at all.

When I go for the money I use riffle work, and occasionaly I will peek and deal twos on the board. That's it. Why would I waste my time, like some dork, practicing moves that will bring me no return? And why the hell would I ever sit and practice something that I thought was as useless as tits on a nun?

As far as DOC not having anything to prove, that's nice of you to say. We all know the real reason that we'll never see that video.

And here's a new Chinese saying:

There's nobody's way to get out of if there's nobody doing it.

Mr. Conley, Tommy, and (as usual) KingStardog have made some good points here. Study their comments.

CC
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 5, 2007 11:30PM)
I have listened to Doc and I always willing to learn. Is it possible to play Gin and play the light to see and recall ten cards? I don’t know! But I think that is easy enough to test and when get home I will play some Gin with my wife and see and if she catches me. I will just blame Yiannis if she does.

:)
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 5, 2007 11:54PM)
Again, it's not memorizing X number of cards that I am scoffing at. We all saw the video clip of that "certain someone" flipping cards over quite quickly and reciting their order.

It's the actions that go into playing the light to such an extent (as I have repeatedly mentioned), and the contrast between these actions and the actions that accompany a fair deal that ruin it for me.

And I can't take fairytales about State Street So and So to the bank.

CC
Message: Posted by: C. Loubard (Dec 6, 2007 12:34AM)
Here's what I see CC is saying.

He's not trying to downplay the power of mnemonics or the use of a shiner. Obviously the use of either one is powerful. His skepticism comes in the ability to use both simultaneously, effectively, and expediently. Can it be done? you bet. Can it be done at dealing speed? can it be done with out arousing suspicion? that's the skepticism.

I've never played the light or have seen dancing butterflies, others have. Regardless, I have seen amazing things and have heard amazing, sometimes unbelievable, stories; however, I have come across people who were reported, by many, to be almost mystical, yet they never lived up to the hype... a case of the telephone game.

As for me, I remain agnostic in the matter. I can't prove that it can or can't be done in a seemingly natural, expedient manner; but I am keeping myself open to the possibility since either one is doable without the other.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 6, 2007 12:43AM)
Yes I understand but I am open minded about doing it in heads up games like Gin. Test it! It will not kill you to test it with a pal. I don't think it will fly but I would love find out I am wrong. There is money in them there Gin games. I think you are on tilt, why don't just calm down and chill out and stop worrying about being right. Sometimes it's good to find out your wrong.
Message: Posted by: Jeremy Brown (Dec 6, 2007 08:03AM)
Card cheat you wrote:
"Oh, brother.

In a casino poker room, even IF they allowed the fat slobs at the tables to put their grubby little hands on the deck to cut it, it would be a one handed cut on the table, directly onto a cut card. Perhaps you could show me a cooler move that could beat that? Oh, wait... you don't like making videos. How could I forget?"



Oh brother!!
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 6, 2007 09:47AM)
I'm not sure what you're getting at, Jeremy.

CC
Message: Posted by: Jeremy Brown (Dec 6, 2007 10:06AM)
Sorry for the intrusion. I meant no disrespect.

Repectfully,

Jeremy
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 6, 2007 10:45AM)
It's no intrusion. This is, in fact, an open forum.

Perhaps you could tell me what you meant by your comments?

CC
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Dec 6, 2007 11:31AM)
CC,

you answered my question why you think this technique is impractical. Because of your limited experience, since you don't practice glim work AND you don't practice memory techniques.

How can you say it's a fantasy, if you don't have any substancial experience in any of these techniques? I think it's because you cannot comprehend how such a skill is possible to learn.

I could have saved a lot of waisted time debating, if you have said this from the beginning.

It's ok to defend your opinion, but it's another thing to try to label it as impossible because you haven't seen it. Just because you haven't see it, it doesn't mean that it does not or cannot exist.

I believe the original Chinese saying fits better under the circumstances.

Tommy,
you know what they say about Greeks and the gifts they bring :)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 6, 2007 12:11PM)
Yiannis

Are you a member of Whit's Scoundrels place? It's cool I am Sydney Greenstreet there. Vandy is the only one I seem know there from here.

"When the Great Scorer comes to mark against your name, he cares less about how you conducted yourself than whether you won or lost."

Is Mamet Greek? :)
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 6, 2007 12:27PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-06 12:31, Yiannis wrote:
you answered my question why you think this technique is impractical. Because of your limited experience, since you don't practice glim work AND you don't practice memory techniques.
[/quote]

You can't put words in my mouth when it's all written right here, pal. That's not all I said.

It just doesn't seem physically possible to me to pull this off and not appear to be doing so.

That's it.

Read everything that I wrote, then read it again.

Your advanced memory techniques don't seem to help you remember all that I have said on the topic.

CC
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 6, 2007 12:33PM)
Anyway I have lost score of this match.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Dec 6, 2007 12:55PM)
Hey Sydney,

nice photo :)
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 6, 2007 02:27PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-06 13:11, tommy wrote:
Yiannis

Are you a member of Whit's Scoundrels place? It's cool I am Sydney Greenstreet there. Vandy is the only one I seem know there from here.

[quote]

Hey What about me? chopped liver?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 6, 2007 09:55PM)
Sorry Kingstardog. I was just wondering if there were guys over there with different names than they use here.