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Topic: CD on false psychics
Message: Posted by: REV BILL (Nov 23, 2007 07:42PM)
Can someone tell me the name of the brother that makes the CD on false psychics? I would like to order it.It was advertised in the Conjurer but I can not find the issues. Thank you
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Nov 24, 2007 03:27PM)
You might be looking for Toby Travis at:

http://www.magiinc.org/

I don't see the material advertised, but you can contact him through the site.

Rod Robison also had a cassette tape available years ago.

http://www.mentallusions.com/

Terry
Message: Posted by: REV BILL (Nov 24, 2007 09:46PM)
Thanks Terry, Rod Robison was who I was thinking of. -- Bill
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Nov 24, 2007 10:24PM)
You're welcome Bill.

You might also be interested in two books that illusionist Andre' Kole coauthored: "Mind Games" and "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."

He is not currently advertising them on his web site http://www.andrekoleshow.com , but they are available online from various book sellers.

Toby Travis had a video (Know Fooling) on the subject that at one time could be watched on his web site, but he has recently made some changes on his site and it is no longer on it.

I did find the page it is advertised on:

http://www.tobytravis.org/kf/kfdvd.html

Terry
Message: Posted by: Hannibal (Nov 25, 2007 04:02AM)
"False Psychic"?

Isn't that redundant?
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Nov 25, 2007 05:18AM)
Terry is right, I have Andre's videos and they are very good, and if you're a pastor Toby will send one of his videos free (if he still offers them) and that was very good. Excellent source of information from both...

Keep the faith!
Message: Posted by: REV BILL (Nov 26, 2007 07:17AM)
Thanks to everyone. I already have the afore mentioned books and tapes. They are excellent. I contacted Mr.Robison for his CD and manuscript.All of the helps are appreciated.-- Rev Bill
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Dec 11, 2007 05:28AM)
[quote]
'False Psychic'? Isn't that redundant?
[/quote]
Depends on your views, I suppose.
Message: Posted by: Joe Marotta (Dec 11, 2007 10:15AM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-25 05:02, Hannibal wrote:
"False Psychic"?

Isn't that redundant?
[/quote]

I concur and also agree with you....

By the way Hannibal, Welcome To The Magic Café! Glad that you've joined us here.

Joe
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Dec 16, 2007 11:15AM)
A point to keep in mind before we throw brickbats too smugly:

The Amazing Randi once reminded me that Christianity (and religion in general) makes claims as extraordinary, and as empirically unverifiable, as the claims of psychics.

I think that we who maintain the faith must, consequently, display a little intellectual humility.
Message: Posted by: Joe Marotta (Dec 16, 2007 01:31PM)
Would you please clarify what you saying Steve? I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that Christianity is unverifiable and comparably equal to the psychics beliefs or practices? Are you in agreement with Randi's statement?

Also, when you say "throw brickbats", are you meaning we shouldn't judge what is true and what is false?

Joe
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Dec 16, 2007 03:32PM)
I have doctors testimonies as to the miraculous healings that had occured in our church over the past few years. Total healings, doctor's verification, changed lives...better than psychics...the problem with Randi, he doesn't tend to believe anything that is a claim of supernatural...just because there are false claims made by individuals (such as we saw on the NBC flop with Uri and Chris)doesn't negate the fact that claims of the miraculous often times are real.

Bishop Terry M. Owens
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Dec 17, 2007 06:00AM)
[quote]
Would you please clarify what you saying Steve? I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that Christianity is unverifiable and comparably equal to the psychics beliefs or practices?
[/quote]
Yes. Empirically, what we believe as Christians holds up no better to scientific analysis and critical thinking than the claims of psychics, which is why we base our beliefs on 'faith.'

[quote]
Are you in agreement with Randi's statement?
[/quote]
Intellectually, yes. While I believe in God, I can no more hand him to you in a test tube than I can a unicorn; I acknowledge that gracefully.

[quote]
Also, when you say 'throw brickbats', are you meaning we shouldn't judge what is true and what is false?
[/quote]
Not at all. Everyone judges what is true and false, whatever conclusions they come to. The point here is that our beliefs are based on what cannot be empirically proven, therefore we are on no more solid ground, scientifically, than anyone who believes anything else that cannot be confirmed empirically (including psi).
To accuse all psychics of being fakes based on the trickery, abuses and misconceptions of a few, opens us up to the same accusations based on the trickery, abuses and misconceptions of a handful of fake faith healers, phony miracle workers and others who use The Lord as a racket.
Does this mean we should accept other supernatural claims at face value? Certainly not. What it does mean is that we need to remember that while our house is founded on a rock, we are still in a 'glass house' empirically. The brickbats we throw can crack our own walls in the eyes of the undecided if we are not prudent.
Better to bring the undecided to Christ by our living example and a kind, inviting image, than by attacking "those other people" and appearing mean and belligerent. To the undecided, we might look, initially, no different than those 'other people,' just more combative and judgmental.


[quote]
I have doctors testimonies as to the miraculous healings that had occurred in our church over the past few years. Total healings, doctor's verification, changed lives...better than psychics...the problem with Randi, he doesn't tend to believe anything that is a claim of supernatural...just because there are false claims made by individuals (such as we saw on the NBC flop with Uri and Chris)doesn't negate the fact that claims of the miraculous often times are real.
[/quote]
Being a Christian, I believe in healing through divine intervention, facilitated by faith. I should point out, however, that the reasoning you are offering relies on more than one logical fallacy; most notably "begging the question," and the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy.
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/logic/logic.html
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Dec 19, 2007 08:26AM)
Steve,

Jews and Christians have more than ample evidence to believe in the Almighty God. Yes, we have to make a leap of faith, but it is not a blind faith. History and science have never contradicted anything in the Bible. Yes, we need faith, but we can see everywhere the fingerprints of God.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: Clark (Dec 19, 2007 10:40AM)
"Evidence" is a tricky word, be very careful throwing it around in theological discussion.
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Dec 19, 2007 04:47PM)
[quote]
Jews and Christians have more than ample evidence to believe in the Almighty God. Yes, we have to make a leap of faith, but it is not a blind faith. History and science have never contradicted anything in the Bible. Yes, we need faith, but we can see everywhere the fingerprints of God.
[/quote]
I hate to tell you, but world history and science [b]have[/b] had contention with various biblical points, such as the global flood.

If the 'evidence' you speak of was as ample as you claim, we would probably have little-to-no difficulty converting [b]everyone[/b]. The examples of evidence I have seen cited in the past have reflected a heavy subjective bias, and often flaws of logic. When we follow our hearts, it is also useful to take our brains along.

You will need to step out of your comfort zone and view these concepts from the other side's viewpoint, with an open mind, to fully understand what I am saying and to get a perspective of what we are truly up against.

Before pushing any further, I suggest your absorbing some basics of critical thinking. Here is a good source: criticalthinking.org

Another exercise I recommend, if you are willing to experience 'a dousing of cold water,' is to arrange to visit a public university philosophy class on the subject of 'man, God and religion,' as taught by an empiricist, and engage in an open discussion with the professor and students. The experience will prove frustrating, but also quite educational.

Paul himself experienced this when he tried to address the Greek philosophers; he wound up stomping off in a 'nit' but, while scripture does not say so, he probably got a better perspective on the magnitude of his task in the bargain.

Incidentally, the definition of 'faith' is belief not backed by evidence so, functionally, all faith is blind.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Dec 19, 2007 06:55PM)
Steve,

Thanks for your comments. I was born into a Catholic family, and the Catholic church was the church of my youth. I abandoned the church and the faith because I had questions about God.

When I was 25, I met a family who changed my life. I looked at the Bible, examined its claims and did a lof of the critical thinking you suggest.

After my examination, I made a decision to follow Jesus and was baptized for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the HOly Spirit (Acts 2:38ff).

Every day, I examine my faith, listen to all opinions, because I want to be sure the decision I made nearly 20 years ago was the right one.

There is nothing comfortable about the zone I am in, except for the fact that Jesus died to save me from my sins. There is an outside chance I might be wrong, but in the words of Adrien Monk, "I don't think so."

Keep the faith, blind or otherwise,

Bobby
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Dec 19, 2007 10:16PM)
Steve:

Are you suggesting that the evidence of Christ's miracles to those around him was not "ample"? It appears you are because you state that if we had ample evidence "we would probably have little-to-no difficulty converting EVERYONE." I'm wondering because we know that not everyone who saw the miracles of Christ was convinced that he was God in the flesh.

Also, your definition of faith (belief not backed by evidence) seems to leave something to be desired. Can you expand on that by giving an illustration of if and when you exhibit faith?

Thanks,

Terry
Message: Posted by: Payne (Dec 19, 2007 10:56PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-19 23:16, Terry Holley wrote:
Steve:

Also, your definition of faith (belief not backed by evidence) seems to leave something to be desired. Can you expand on that by giving an illustration of if and when you exhibit faith?

Thanks,

Terry
[/quote]

From Merriam - Webster


Main Entry: Faith
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths \ˈfâths, sometimes ˈfâthz\
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
Date: 13th century
1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions
2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Note "1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof" seems to be another way to say "A belief not backed by evidence" so Mr. Mollett's definition is quite correct.

As of yet there is no substative "proof" proof for any God so their existence must be taken on Faith and Faith alone lest one gets killed at the next Zebra Crossing they come to. Point to the person who sites that reference.
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Dec 20, 2007 05:44AM)
[quote]
Are you suggesting that the evidence of Christ's miracles to those around him was not "ample"?
[/quote]
Keep in mind that the accounts of the miracles were anecdotal. Anecdotal evidence is not sufficient due to its subjective and untestable nature (Dr. A. Puharich testifies in his book, URI, that he was with Uri Gellar in the desert when a UFO landed, the Egyptian god Horus came out, and the god and Uri went inside the UFO). In show-biz the skewed anecdotal account is called the 'wagging of tongues' (aka legend building via gossip; urban legends).

Does this mean the miracles did not happen? No. What it [b]does[/b] mean is that the anecdotal accounts cannot stand as [b]proof[/b] according to the basic laws of logic.

[quote]
Also, your definition of faith (belief not backed by evidence) seems to leave something to be desired.
[/quote]
Actually, it's the established definition, as Payne and I both pointed out. If it leaves something to be desired, that's unfortunate, but it IS the definition.

[quote]
Can you expand on that by giving an illustration of if and when you exhibit faith?
[/quote]
There is no 'if'; I [b]do[/b] exhibit faith. I exhibit faith by believing in God and in Yshua (Jesus) as the messiah. I exhibit faith by believing we are all loved and valued by God and have a positive destiny. I exhibit faith by believing that God is a personal being whom we can contact directly, through the messiah and the Holy Spirit, and without the need of clergy. I exhibit faith by believing in divine intervention, healing, miracles and personalized gifts of the Spirit. I exhibit faith by believing in a glorious afterlife where we will finally see, clearly, all that we must now take on faith.

Can I [b]prove[/b] any of what I believe empirically or philosophically? No; I would be arrogant and self-deceiving to say I could.

The fact that I still believe...[b]that[/b] is [b]faith[/b].
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Dec 20, 2007 06:16PM)
This really isn't the correct forum to get into all these discussions, and I don't really have the time to respond in the way I would like, but I question the definitions of faith that have been given in this thread.

I will simply point others to a web site that explains how I understand the use of faith in the Bible:

http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html

My agreement ends at the conclusion of the article, and I don't endorse the added comments.

Terry
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Dec 21, 2007 05:12AM)
Which brings us back to the original problem: proof.

If faith must be based on proof (beyond 'evidence' subjectively acceptable to the individual, but not invulnerable to empirical/philosophical scrutiny) we're in a world of hurt.

This alternative definition of faith makes it sound a bit like we all have to be Thomas. As Christ is attributed to have said [b]to[/b] Thomas, however, "You believe because you have seen, but blessed are those who believe without seeing."
Message: Posted by: Payne (Dec 21, 2007 03:55PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-21 06:12, Steve_Millet wrote:

Which brings us back to the original problem: proof.
[/quote]
Unfortunately "proof" is relative. For believers the Bible is the only proof they need or desire and thus accept it without question to be the infallible word of their God.

Others however see it as simply a book of stories written by men trying to explain and define the world around them and thus need something a tad bit more reliable and unbiased before changing their world view.

Both sides of the philosophical spectrum fail to have all the answers and both require a certain amount of faith to maintain their perception of the universe.

As a strict materialist I must admit that there are holes in our knowledge base and aspects of our modeling that as of yet have no explanation.
My faith (for lack of a better term) is that we have always been able to find the answers questions in the material world and thus see no reason why this won't continue on into the future as we learn more about ourselves and our universe.

Others simply put their faith in God and find all their answers in his word.
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Dec 21, 2007 04:33PM)
The whole universe is proof...what if I said I didn't believe in atheists, what proof is there that there is such a critter...
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Dec 21, 2007 05:12PM)
[quote]
The whole universe is proof...
[/quote]
Only because you have subjectively evaluated it as such. You see a pattern, whether it exists or not (psychologists call that 'closure') and then draw a subjective conclusion based on combining that closure with preconceived beliefs.
Unfortunately, it does not [b]have[/b] to add up to your conclusion. Again check out:
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/logic/logic.html
and look at the sections on 'non-sequitors' and 'begging the question.'

Looking at the wonders of the universe and saying, "Ah, the handiwork of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." is a subjective evaluation based in an established belief in Yhwh (aka Jehovah).

An unbiased look at the universe [b]does not[/b] have to result in that evaluation.

A Hindu could look at the universe and say, "Ah, the handiwork of Brahmah, Vishnu and Shiva."

An empiricist could react with, "Ah, the surprising effects of physics and random chance."

As to the allusion to denying the existence of atheists: I personally know Christians, Jews, Messianic Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, Celtic and Hellenistic Pagans, Atheists, and Agnostics. Their empirical presence makes it extremely difficult to rationally deny their existence.

On the other hand, I have never seen UFO aliens, bigfoot, chupacabra, leprechauns, gnomes, the Jersey devil or unicorns. In the absence of verifiable empirical validation, I can readily accept someone's reluctance to believe in their existence.

But, yes, we are all straying heavily from both the point of the thread, and even my original reason for speaking up.
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Dec 21, 2007 07:41PM)
Good grief Charlie Brown...

Rev Bill if you need a copy of Toby Travis' great teaching on this subject, I have the DVD, and could ask him if he still offers it. Let me know if you're interested in it.
Message: Posted by: Toby (Dec 21, 2007 11:00PM)
I do still have about 50 of the DVD's in stock. They are available at:

http://www.tobytravis.org/kf/kfdvd.html#four

You can also view a portion of the DVD online at:

http://www.tobytravis.org/media/video/index.htm

Hope this is helpful.
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Dec 22, 2007 07:01AM)
Glad to have you on the Café Toby...You're certainly one of the top Gospel performers out there. I really appreciate your heart and vision for ministry.
Message: Posted by: spcarlson (Jan 9, 2008 12:50PM)
Wow, this is quite a theological debate.

Steven
Message: Posted by: MindMyst (Jan 11, 2008 07:35PM)
Hi everyone. I just wanted to drop a line saying how much I enjoyed reading this thread, and put in a couple of items...

Steve_Mollett said:

Intellectually, yes. While I believe in God, I can no more hand him to you in a test tube than I can a unicorn; I acknowledge that gracefully.

Job 39:9-12 ... a little something about the unicorn from God.

Steve also said:

I hate to tell you, but world history and science HAVE had contention with various biblical points, such as the global flood.

Well, Jesus had a little something to say about that...

Jhn 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


Anyway, this is just the literalist in me.

Happy New Year to everyone.

Joe
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Jan 12, 2008 03:50PM)
Which all gets us back to square one, and continues in the same circles.

Plus, before we get too far in left field:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i2/unicorn.asp
Message: Posted by: Joe Marotta (Jan 13, 2008 12:25PM)
Steve- Your above post actually brings us to far left field when you bring up the 'unicorn' vs 'wild ox' translation debate. Please let's stay on the original Topic of the poster seeking CDs of False Psychics.

Steve- previously you stated (again off topic), "Paul himself experienced this [frustrations] when he tried to address the Greek philosophers; he wound up stomping off in a 'nit' but, while scripture does not say so, he probably got a better perspective on the magnitude of his task in the bargain."

This is true, Scripture doesn't say so. In fact Acts 17:16-34 where Paul meets Greek philosophers, the Scriptures don't say 'he stomped off in a nit' or anything like that at all. In fact it states he addressed them, then some mocked and others said they wanted to hear more. v34 "However, some men joined him (Paul) and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them." Looks like Paul was very successful in his discussions. Please don't try to paint Paul as a coward or ineffective witness.

I appologize to everyone for being off the original Topic, but I felt the need to address the above 'off topic' posts. Steve, if you wish to further discuss these things, please PM me directly so we can be respectful of The Magic Café rules. I will not post another reply here unless it has to do specifically with the topic 'CD on false psychics'. I will not reply to other off topic posts.

I recommend we all stay on topic.

Thanks,
Joe
Message: Posted by: spcarlson (Jan 13, 2008 01:29PM)
Psychics from a Christian perspective.

These heated debates would probably not happen if we were all sitting around a table chatting. The weak spot in e-mail or web posts such as the Café, is the translating of our thoughts into the typed word, we are trying to abbreviate our wording so we don’t take up too much space, plus we are typing quickly and probably not re-reading what we typed. I really don’t think anyone here is in opposition on this topic, as Christians I am sure everyone thinks and feels much the same way.

In the 10th & 11th posts Mr. Marotta responded rather quickly to what Mr. Mollet was saying and that is what stared this whole exchange on “evidence, faith, history and science. The only problem with this veering off is the original question or topic gets lost and buried. I notice this happens quite frequently at the Café, not just here, but on all topics. Maybe the person who originated the post should act as moderator of the post to keep the subject on track.

Lets talk about psychics from a Christian perspective. This is a good topic for magicians who are Christians to tackle here at the Café. I hear enough theological debating at bible study and church ;o) Personally, I would like to get more information on the subject of psychics, as a magician who expresses his faith I am asked about it quite frequently.

God bless,
Steven
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Jan 13, 2008 06:32PM)
[quote]
Lets talk about psychics from a Christian perspective.
[/quote]
Like a lot of other things in Christianity, there's more than one perspective floating about.

But, since I'm 'getting everyone off topic,' I'll just let this one lay and let it run wherever it will without further input.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Feb 23, 2008 11:16PM)
I saw Andre Kole's show tonight it was a lot of fun. he had some books for sale at the show on this topic.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Feb 24, 2008 12:46PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-24 00:16, Joshua Barrett wrote:
I saw andre kole's show tonight it was a lot of fun. he had some books for sale at the show on this topic
[/quote]

Did you buy any?

Terry