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Topic: Jokers?
Message: Posted by: Simon Bakker (Dec 5, 2007 05:05AM)
Hello,

Why (from a presentational viewpoint) would a magician keep the jokers seperate from his deck of cards. Why does he pull them out of a pocket if he's gonna do an effect with them?

I know Jay Sankey says something like: "the Jokers wil start doing tricks of their own in the deck," but I'm looking for some creative other suggestions.

Any thoughts?

regards
Simon
Message: Posted by: pepka (Dec 5, 2007 06:21AM)
I usually keep them in my pocket to add in secretly if I've had a card signed or whatever. Normally if I need all 52, which isn't that often.
Message: Posted by: DomKabala (Dec 5, 2007 07:08AM)
The Jokers always remain in my deck. If they are not needed, then I remove them and deposit them back in the box. I use them in certain effects such as sandwiching cards for example.
Cardamagically,
Dom
:) :bwink:
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Dec 5, 2007 07:24AM)
From a presentational viewpoint (rather than a practical one) - that's a good question! Hmm...
You don't use Jokers in most card games...
They are essentially duplicates of each other so it's not good if someone picked one in a take a card trick...
They have no suit, no number, and so to some folks, no value...

When I remove them, I do so by spreading the cards face up. I simply say "we don't need the jokers for this trick", which is pretty much nonsense, but it seems to fly. I have never come up with a strong presentational reason for removing them and discarding 'em. I do this when I want to ensure that the spectators get a quick look at all the faces of the cards. Otherwise, they're left back in the box.
Message: Posted by: ajb6864 (Dec 5, 2007 08:01AM)
Removing the Jokers from a deck shuffled by a spectator can allow you to glimpse or cull cards under the guise of a legitimate action. This would, hopefully, strengthen the impact (if handled well), as the spectators impression is that they shuffled the cards immediately before the effect took place.
Message: Posted by: Simon Bakker (Dec 5, 2007 08:12AM)
Thanks for all the responses!

I think I should have made myself a little clearer. In the effect I'm doing I say I don't have a full deck because three cards are missing: first the ace of spades which is my lucky card that I keep in my wallet, and the jokers are missing as well. I then take them out of my pocket and do a sandwich effect with the jokers.

I was looking for a 'reason' why I keep the jokers seperate in my pocket.
Jay Sankey says something like: I keep the jokers away from the deck, because they start to do tricks, watch this (then he starts the effect with the two jokers).

So to sum up: I don't take them out of the deck, I take them out of my pocket and do an effect with them.

Any thoughts?

Simon
Message: Posted by: Paul (Dec 5, 2007 09:23AM)
I normally keep them in the deck and when I spread the cards initially, point them out and mention I'm using a full deck. Why would you keep them in a pocket? If one or both are gaffed you could just have them at the face of the deck, place them to one side, then use them when you need to.

The only time I'd have jokers somewhere other than the deck is if I were doing a routine that used four or five of them, because you don't get that quantity included with a deck.

More odd seems to be carrying around a lucky card in your wallet from the deck in play...

Paul.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Newton (Dec 5, 2007 09:28AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-05 09:01, ajb6864 wrote:
Removing the Jokers from a deck shuffled by a spectator can allow you to glimpse or cull cards under the guise of a legitimate action. This would, hopefully, strengthen the impact (if handled well), as the spectators impression is that they shuffled the cards immediately before the effect took place.
[/quote]

Wow - I hate this idea. You are asking to be rumbled.
Message: Posted by: gadfly3d (Dec 5, 2007 09:30AM)
I think you guys are running when nobody is chasing. Just do it.

Gil Scott
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Dec 5, 2007 09:41AM)
I usually throw away the guarantee joker just because it doesn't look good and I keep the other joker in the deck. Keeping one joker gives me an excuse at anytime to go through and remove both jokers. Under this guise I can remove the first and while I appear to be searching for the other I can be controlling a card or cards into position for the next effect. I never find the other joker but it gives nice cover for playing with the deck. Once I have my cards in position I say "Oh that's right I only had one joker"

As for what to say when removing the jokers. I think its a pretty common thing for anyone to remove the jokers from a deck. Before any card game this is common. So keep what you say as simple and generic as possible. During the action I describe above all I say is "Wait a minute let me get rid of the jokers" I remove one then after I have my cards in position I say "That's right I only had one".

If the jokers were in my pocket I wouldn't say anything about why they were there just bring them out and do the effect. Like I said before its very common to remove the jokers from the deck everyone has done it. So having them in your pocket makes perfect sense.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: PaulGordon (Dec 5, 2007 09:46AM)
I dump the Jokers because I do a lot of 52-cards-only effects with the Faro etc.

Paul Gordon
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Dec 5, 2007 12:31PM)
I don't think you really even need to bring up removing the jokers to the spectators. As was pointed out most remove them for card games anyway so it's not an unusual action.

I agree with Gladfly3d it is a case of running while no one is chasing you. Magicians logic sometimes is not very logical. We all do it worry about something that the spectators are never in a million years even going to think about. I'm not saying we shouldn't worry about things. It's just we worry for the wrong reasons often
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (Dec 5, 2007 12:44PM)
The only reason I usually keep the jokers is to make thick double backers out of them.
Message: Posted by: Cain (Dec 5, 2007 12:59PM)
I do not keep the jokers in, but I do like the point Richard Osterlind makes (Mind Mysteries vol. 2) about discarding them, even (especially?) if you leave them on the face of the deck so they're seen by all when coming out of the box. That seems to make things just a little more... normal? You do not need to say anything; simply set them aside. Perhaps I am over-analyzing but I suspect a lot of reasonably intelligent people will vaguely infer that this deck of cards is not [i]only[/i] used for card tricks but also card games. I mean, when I go to somebody's house and they hand me a deck of cards, that's exactly how it is. OR, hilariously, they have lost a card so the joker is the four of spades, or whatever. I can see how this would not benefit someone who is performing hundreds of card tricks a night, discarding jokers at each and every table. In that case, just get on with it, Magic Boy. Your deck of cards IS used for card tricks.

The only problem I foresee is one that holds in general, for people and magicians: we think we are better actors than we really are: "Oh, [i]wait a minute[/i], I forgot to take out the jokers! [goes through deck] Silly me. [still going through deck] Where are those guys? Ah [locates them]." As someone mentioned earlier -- do not make a big production out of it.
Message: Posted by: magico563 (Dec 5, 2007 03:16PM)
Like someone said before, JUST DO IT. No need to make a huff and a puff out of it!! If you take the jokers out then you just take em out :) If you are going to leave them in just leave them in :) Simple!!

Thanks, magico563:-)
Message: Posted by: criverstamu09 (Dec 5, 2007 04:08PM)
Whenever I do a packet trick, I typically simply remove the cards from my pocket and begin. I have never had a spectator ask for justification or seem confused that there wasn't any.
Message: Posted by: Eric Falconer (Dec 5, 2007 04:18PM)
Here's what I say when I do NFW... (A trick that starts with a packet of 4 identical Jokers) I don't remove them from a deck.... Why would a deck have 4 Jokers?

Here's what I say...

"So I've got a bunch of different trick decks right. And normally I take out all the jokers but I discovered the jokers are trick jokers. So I've got all of them here... and I'd like to show you...."

Your question seems like a presentational one... not a sleight or move question. The answer is a presentational answer. Don't necessarily change your moves to fit your presentation.... it's usually much easier to just change your presentation.

Eric
Message: Posted by: Simon Bakker (Dec 5, 2007 04:39PM)
I'm not looking for any justification, I'm just looking for an interesting presentational hook. Why do you keep jokers away from the rest of your cards?
I'm not looking for any technical details, etc, or people to tell me to just do it. Please read my post more carefully. Really, it's not that scary to take two jokers out of your pocket. I was asking if somebody has any presentational ideas to make it a bit more interesting.

I guess eric Falcone understood me correctly.

@ Cain:

I can see how this would not benefit someone who is performing hundreds of card tricks a night, discarding jokers at each and every table. In that case, just get on with it, Magic Boy. Your deck of cards IS used for card tricks.

Hmm, I don't know what you mean by the phrase: just get on with it magic boy. Doesn't sound very respectful to me.
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Dec 5, 2007 04:54PM)
I don't believe anyone has misunderstood the original post. What some of us are saying is it's not important to have a reason to have them in your pocket etc.. More often then not trying to give a reason is a red flag to the spectators and then they are trying to figure out why you are making a fuss of something so simple. Sure if you have 4 jokers in your pocket then you can say there from other decks but still it maybe running when there is really no need.

Randy
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Dec 5, 2007 05:32PM)
The Ace is your lucky card and the Jokers are it's bodyguards.

Ron
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Dec 5, 2007 05:43PM)
Taking out the jokers from a deck is rather common for laypeople, prior starting a game. Most card tricks can be done with a jocker in the deck. Guess, it is a habit thing.

And you are right, there is no point in having the jokers separate
Message: Posted by: Top Hat (Dec 8, 2007 03:39PM)
I am amazed at how many of these posts do not address the original question. On the other hand, I should not be amazed at all, as these are magicians speaking and many magicians often fail to see the point (just go to any magic convention and listen to the after-lecture questions).

Also, I think that most people here just like to show off, without taking heed to the actual question.

Simon, I think your question is good, and I would say also that I'm not too keen on Jay Sankey's approach to say that he keeps the jokers separate so they don't start doing tricks of their own, as I find that a bit twee and patronising. (Jay Sankey is a great entertainer, though, and a nice guy).

I think the best thing is to keep things straighforward. To most audiences, I would suggest that they are not really going to be too bothered that the jokers are not kept in the deck that is in your hands. This is because they are probably used to playing with cards in which the jokers are not present anyway. So they would not find anything strange about the jokers not being in the deck. What they MIGHT find strange is that you bothered to put the two jokers in your POCKET if you knew you were going to need them later! So perhaps the location of the jokers has some signifiance with respect to your question. If you take them out of a little black plastic wallet with clear pockets in it, then an audience would think that was a bit odd. If you took them straight out of your pocket, it might seem a bit odd too (although less so). If you took them out of the card box that was either on the table or in your pocket, the audience would think that was more normal. However, regarding the [b]rationale[/b] (presentational viewpoint)for keeping them separate (wherever they are) - I would say that the simplest reason would be that you prefer to handle 52 cards rather than 54 (which in my case is true). Or that you don't normally keep the jokers in the deck because (maybe) they tend to get in the way as you don't normally need them. But these statements are probably best left unsaid, as I believe that an audience would instinctively understand them anyway.

Aside from that, I really like Cain's comment about acting, and how magicians think they can act sufficiently well. Normally (if my experience is anything to go by) they can't. We've all seen those embarrassing "er.. oh, hang on - where are the?... oh yeah, silly me... here we go" moments.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Newton (Dec 10, 2007 09:46AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 16:39, Top Hat wrote:
I am amazed at how many of these posts do not address the original question.
[/quote]

Don't be - this is a thread on a forum, not a question on an exam paper.
Message: Posted by: Top Hat (Dec 10, 2007 11:22AM)
Absolutely - and that's why I agree with Simon that a minimum of three jokers should always be used, one of which has a different-colored back, and one of which is slightly sticky. Keep one of the jokers in your outer breast pocket (facing the audience) and the other two inside a crystal casket, secured with a small brass padlock. The key should be inside a small brown envelope stuck to your forehead with spit. Hope this helps.
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Dec 10, 2007 08:44PM)
Again why worry about it? The more you try to give reason to something that doesn't even matter to the spectators in the first place it makes them wonder why you are even trying to convince them on having the jokers in your pocket or your combination microwave back scratcher that's on four wheels There is no reason to even mention why the jokers are not in the deck and are in a pocket or wallet The spectators do not care period.

Having the jokers out of the deck is not an odd thing. Why turn it into one?
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Dec 10, 2007 09:17PM)
I take the Jokers out because they're funny. The last thing I need in my deck is a couple of cards. <insert rimshot>